Open Forum, July 4-10



Happy Independence Day, everyone!

Here are the five most-read stories for the week of June 26-July 2.

No. 1: Body found at Lacamas Park is missing teen

No. 2: Rainbow Family gathers in Skamania County

No. 3: Charges loom in cat-shooting case

No. 4: Police: Woman is slain in Vancouver duplex

No. 5: Deputies search for suspects after shooting in Vancouver

Starting June 1, readers must comment on stories using a Facebook account. This forum has been created to allow registered users to continue online discussions under your existing profile. The open forum will be refreshed once a week to allow for easier commenting.

The forums will still be moderated by Columbian staff and our community guidelines and terms of service still apply.

Only Columbian staff members can create new forum threads.

Don't see a forum topic here that fits your comments? Suggest one here.



Did the Fourth of July come and go already and I missed it or what?

hawkeye — June 20, 2011 at 8:28 a.m. ( | suggest removal

I'd say this is just a bit premature, given that today is the 20th of June.

goldenoldie — June 20, 2011 at 10:58 a.m. ( | suggest removal

And I'll bet you three "borrowed" the time machine Lou used for his facebook photo.

Happy Fourth.

roger — July 4, 2011 at 7:23 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Happy Fourth everyone! Be safe.

(those three posts at the top were from June 20. The "C" posted the heading a little too early)

hawkeye — July 4, 2011 at 8:04 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Awwww!!! Hawkeye, it was more fun making others think we'd taken a ride on a time machine. Just teasin'.

Have a safe and happy day today, everyone!!!

goldenoldie — July 4, 2011 at 9:23 a.m. ( | suggest removal

I didn't want EVERYONE to know I had one, THANKS !!!!

hawkeye — July 4, 2011 at 10:07 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Sorry, Mr. Peabody.


roger — July 4, 2011 at 11:19 a.m. ( | suggest removal


Summer fashion is great! War is hell and fireworks aplenty, if the $$$ we spent on pyrotechnics each 4th of July went to the local VA's, perhaps American independence and freedom would be more meaningful this day. Back in the day acid washed jeans meant.."Holy Crap I forgot to check my pockets!"...sitting by the windowpane referred to being a look out. Summer fashion is great! Would the statue of liberty be gifted to us today? What does "We are proud to be an American, born in the USA" mean anyway...all hail to our mothers for having sex and birthing us in this location? Or does it mean the values that our country has championed for so long...and what are the values that we cherish...Would the statue of liberty be gifted to us today? Summer fashion is great! Many of our founding fathers held unitarian universalists's conservatives would deem them pagans and proponents of debauchery, as will as claiming them to be irresponsible and incapable of running our government...who would America be better off with or without? Summer fashion is great!

nailingit — July 4, 2011 at 2:21 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Nice spin, Nailingit. In my case, the money I would have donated to the local VA's (since I don't pay to burn 10-second noisemakers) went to help a family in need to help keep their electricity going instead. Besides, there's plenty of pyros still going off like a war zone every night in our neighborhood. Who needs to know what it was like back in 1776 when the percussion of some of the modern pyros which has a tendency to rattle all our windows are probably as similar as the old cannon blasts. All in all, we won't be missing any celebratory festivities. It isn't about the fireworks anyhow. That's just commercialism as far as I'm concerned. Reflecting on what freedoms we still possess is the real meaning behind the Fourth of July.

Now as far as summer fashion...did you know that denim was first developed in France??? It was originally called "serge de Nimes." Levi Strauss later named it "denim" when he developed first what was known as "Waist Overalls," then he designed his famous line of jeans in San Francisco during the Gold Rush per request of the miners who were in desperate need of good work pants. True story!

Ahhh....the history of the innovation of American industry! Isn't it wonderful??? Now...if we could only encourage more entrepeneurship and marketability of manufactured products here again in the USA!!!

goldenoldie — July 4, 2011 at 3:58 p.m. ( | suggest removal

sorry, it doesn't appear that's gonna happen. we are falling further and further behind in education which is key to innovation. India is on track to begin marketing $25 laptops for use in schools, starting out from day one. by the time these kids have 12-14 years on a computer, can you imagine what they'll come up with? a laptop will contain all the books they need, making grade level irrelevant. we already know they spell better-what's next?

while we continually underfund education, we're losing our future. manufacturing jobs will, if not already, become a race to the bottom, unless we want to work for next to nothing wages. as we fight over what's going to be cut next, and a lot of countries move forward.

if this country doesn't jump into education partnered with business to crank out a trained, educated workforce within a very few years, we're toast.

mrd — July 4, 2011 at 4:21 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Hmm...MRD...does it really take a college education to be a success in life??? In all honesty, I don't think it necessarily takes a college degree or even a diploma...and this is coming from someone who graduated from Clark College as did her daughter. Here, take a look at the list of folks I am sharing with you. None of them had college degrees. It took the personal drive for them to become successful:

Bill Gates

Mary Kay Ash

Milton Hershey

Steve Jobs

Rachel Ray

Frank Lloyd Wright

Henry Ford

Debbi Fields

Walt Disney

goldenoldie — July 4, 2011 at 4:31 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Anybody ever wonder why our US flag is made in China???

Unless my flag was made here in the USA with cotton harvested from the fields of Midwest America and threads spun and woven and dyed in patriotic colors and sewn together by a manufacturer on US Soil who has proven that each and every worker on their payroll have the legal right to work in the US, I will refuse to fly a flag in honor of our nation. I know my heart is in the right place as I honor our freedom today and that's all that matters.

Now here's a concept. Start producing the flags once again HERE for a change! I'd be willing to bet more people will fly the flag of the United States of America, knowing it was made not in part but in WHOLE by the people of the United States of America.

And those fireworks you are out buying for tonight's pyro celebration??? Just where did they come from???

Also...anybody notice how much more dangerous the fireworks have become? More bang and more buck, huh!

Please be careful tonight, folks. Don't just rely on a "punk" as a safety measure in lighting the pyros. You'd be surprised in how the fireworks are inspected before they go on sale. It isn't as safe as you think!

goldenoldie — July 4, 2011 at 4:49 p.m. ( | suggest removal

it seems like these folks are the exception, not the rule. i still feel, as a whole, an educated, trained workforce is the ticket. for everyone you mentioned-and those like them-there are probably a hundred thousand impoverished, untrained, unskilled and uneducated people. i'm not saying a college degree is required, but it sure helps. skilled and trained workers are also needed. but assembly line type jobs that pay well while requiring little skill are going, going,.......

mrd — July 4, 2011 at 4:54 p.m. ( | suggest removal

*skilled and trained workers are also needed. but assembly line type jobs that pay well while requiring little skill are going, going,.......
mrd — July 4, 2011 at 4:54 p.m.*

Ask yourself just why those jobs are going mrd.
It is mainly because the schools shove the " one MUST have a degree" or they can't get a job down the youth of this countries throat. That floods the job markets with degrees that are worthless in some cases. Start researching and you will see far more "college degree" people are out of a job than just a skilled person or a person that is certified. You tell me mrd, why would a person need a college degree to answer phones in a call center?
Yes, I have seen in the paper ads for a "phone person" requiring they have at least a 2 yr degree. Want to spray weeds for the city or county? Best be certified with some college to spray weeds along side the roads, in parks or freeways. Want to be a plumber? Sure you have to be certified,..or how about a waitress..soon one will have to have a 4 yr degree to be one. Many jobs are going away simply cause our education system is pushing our youth away from them.
Check out the system, I believe Germany has..those who don't go on to higher education are sent to schools to be trained from clerk to mechanic etc.

ELISI — July 4, 2011 at 5:47 p.m. ( | suggest removal

mrd and elisi: I just saw a broadcast that discussed the de-valuation of degrees from American universities. There are no jobs at the end of that multi-thousand dollar diploma. Partnering with business is crucial and something some of our school districts are taking to heart (Bio Med High School near SW Washington PeaceHealth, for example).

It is an absolutely glorious day on the Northern Oregon coast! It is just about as perfect as it can get! The sun is shining strong, the water is a clear blue/green, flags are flying everywhere, and folks are happy and full of good will. Enjoy a safe and happy 4th of July, everyone!

I am so grateful to live in a country that allows us to freely share these important ideas with each other, as we do on here daily. 8D

manthou — July 4, 2011 at 7:30 p.m. ( | suggest removal

So, hope everyone had a good Fourth. Trust no one had the little stick from their fireworks lodge between someones ulna and radius, saw that one on the beaches of Mexico. Hope the fireworks didn't set your tent or tarp on fire, saw that one on the beaches of Mexico as well. Hope that your car/vehicle whatever did not get hit by any stray fireworks, saw that one numerous times in Germany, do not leave your vehicle on the road on new year's eve or whenever the Germans win the World Cup i.e. 1990, really bad idea.

This is actually a suggestion for the Coumbian staff, Libby, Matt, Lou are you reading? I would like to see a regular feature which could be called "What our Congress Critters are doing". Frankly it isn't hard to find out what our senators are doing but tracing the actions of our representative is a bit more difficult, sort of, a link to Representative Boehner's site actually answers what Rep Herrera Buetler has been voting on. The real news would be if she voted against something that Boehner supported.

Snark aside I think that this should be something that the Columbian should be monitoring. Of course I would like it to be linked the the basement commentators such as myself so we can comment on our representative's actions.

dfsadfh — July 4, 2011 at 8:25 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Heureux 4th goldenoldie! Thanks for the history lesson, I'll see if I can come up with an appropriate avatar to commemorate! Quenton Tarantino was a high school drop out that honed his skills in a video rental store! Sounds like pulp fiction but it's true!

Allen. Is Ohio still part of the United States? I thought they suckseeded.

manthou...your posts are always uplifting..thanks for that!

Hawkeye, roger, alley, mrd, dfsadfh and to all the underlings of the C's blogging abasement...

Happy #%&^*##@$! 4th!

nailingit — July 4, 2011 at 11:11 p.m. ( | suggest removal

ELISI, I see you understood where I was coming from. MRD, I wasn't saying everyone should avoid a college education. I'm just saying not everyone has to attend college in order to become a success. You stated "It seems like these folks are the exception, not the rule..." well honestly, I don't think they are/were. An acquaintance of the family has been studying law all his life and probably knows more than most attorneys in our midst. I asked him why he never went for a law degree and his answer??? Would you believe his response was that he didn't want to be bound by the rules set forth in the court system which binds his freedom. Kinda makes you think, huh!

Anyhow, Bill Gates...a kid who tinkered around in electronics now can tinker around, doing anything he so chooses. Debbi Fields, a young mom in the kitchen preparing yummies for her kids now has an army of folks who are preparing for America's kids. Frank Lloyd Wright??? He liked to draw. He had dreams of that perfect home and now people would give their eye teeth to own one of his final works.

You see mrd, it isn't really anybody who is special. They just took what they enjoyed and went one step further. They took that risk and wanted to go further.

I know of this fine man who in elementary school, he took up the art of playing the flute. He has a good ear for music, always does. He practiced and practiced every day but something never sounded just right with the flutes he played. He went on to play in the Portland Junior Symphony for a couple of years, took up woodworking and other hobbies as well, but he never gave up on his flute playing. Yes, he took several years of College classes but not one single class helped him to where he is today. Instead, he went to a few music fests and checked out instruments. He came upon an older gentleman who taught him how to make his own folk flutes. No college, no skills training...just someone who had the love of music like this young man. Today, that young man is supporting his family, owns his own home and land, travels globally and is a complete success with his folk flute making business. That young man??? My brother.

goldenoldie — July 5, 2011 at 6:27 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Allen, I was aware there was at least one US flag maker...but where does the fabric they make the flags with and the fabric dyes to make the colors come from? My point was that in order to have something made entirely in the USA, it has to be COMPLETELY USA made...fibers included, but thanks for the information. I have my father's flag from the 60's, still in excellent condition. I'd doubt it that it came from China like most flags of today.

You many products with the MADE IN USA label also have finer print directly below them which say "with products from ........(fill in the blank)." A great representation of that is in the textile industry. Anyone who uses a sewing machine or knitting needles will attest to that. Even the companies who boast about carrying USA-made products have that little comment.

goldenoldie — July 5, 2011 at 6:34 a.m. ( | suggest removal

GO: Loved the story you shared about your brother! Good for him! He followed his bliss and it worked well, it seems.

Alleycat: You must be very proud of your daughter's passion and committment to developing her business with ethics and sustainability in mind. I have read many articles about young entrepeneurs and families rebuilding businesses and communities in the Detroit area. It is affordable and these visionaries are turning it around. Best of luck to her.

Made in the USA products are worth the extra money.

manthou — July 5, 2011 at 8:49 a.m. ( | suggest removal

"Rebuilding Detroit the Sane Way: One Block at a Time":

I see the same thing happening here in Fruit Valley and, to a a degree, Rose Village.

manthou — July 5, 2011 at 8:57 a.m. ( | suggest removal

manthou — July 4, 2011 at 7:30 p.m

Yes, your are correct on the Bio-health at our local hospital.
I hope other business will follow suit. So many of the "apprentice" jobs many companies had are disappearing.

Without those needed apprentice jobs people like my oldest brother, just returning from his 4 yrs in the military..was hired by a small print shop. Later that job lead him to become a reporter then editor of a newspaper. Retired now he has told me many times while editor his main goal was to "pay it forward"...hire kids right out of high school or those coming out of the military as apprentices.

There's an idea for the Columbian, have a section for the high schools in our area. Solely written by student reporters that work on the schools paper. It would not only help the kids out as far as those who want to be journalist, but it would also spur those who never read a newspaper to start reading one! Once a week or once a month section in say the Sunday paper?
Might be worth looking into about it?

ELISI — July 5, 2011 at 9:38 a.m. ( | suggest removal much for the ne'er say good crowd when it comes to the Columbia River Crossing. I know...I could have put this comment in the forum about the CRC but felt this one is more up to date. Anyhow, so many times I've read the comments from those who want the project and light rail to take off in its present form say to those of us who have been quite vocal from the get go that we were a minority and that we wanted to live in the dark ages. I just got done reading the article about Timmy Boy and Jaime Herrera and the crossing quite pleased with what Herrera is further comment about Mr. Leaveitt other than that he sold out a long time ago...but am even more pleased with the comments following the article. Heck, they don't even need my input on FB. Hey Mayor, you reading the FB comments yet? Why not chime in.

I will say that I do agree with Shawn Welter that the main issue with I-5 in the mornings and afternoons are caused by Portland's freeway ramps and that they need to be re-calibrated. I do not agree with the exaggerated comment that C-Tran has 50+ buses in the afternoon. That's just about as bad as saying one crime on MAX means the entire system is dangerous to ride, although I know certain transit stations along the Max line have major issues with crime...Gresham run to be exact.

goldenoldie — July 5, 2011 at 11:59 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Herrara and Leavitt are "trading barbs" but does it really matter what they think? This CRC project is a done deal with the key players calling the shots. Its all over except the fat lady hasn't sung yet.

AlleyCat Kudos to your kids working on the American Dream. I see a lot of your character in this project, bet you are having a significant influence.

The entrepreneurial free enterprise model with capitalism completely dominates world economics now as the only viable economic model, and arguably, justifiably so.Way better than communism, for example. The battle now is between enlightened, socially conscious capitalism against the traditional, profits only and colonialism version, the kind that Fisher Investments goes for.

mangoboy — July 5, 2011 at 12:48 p.m. ( | suggest removal

dfsadfh, thanks for the suggestion! We've talked about doing something along those lines with regards to Congressional votes and posting that on our website. But I'll pass word on. I can't make any promises, but I'll definitely mention it to someone.

I hope you all had a great Independence Day! Glad to see this nice weather sticking around, too.

Matt Wastradowski — July 5, 2011 at 1:31 p.m. ( | suggest removal


"...Now, these kids are not republican, conservatives or the like. They are anti status quo and have a tremendous dislike for greed and current events that stole their future..."

Wow, I wonder where they got that frame of mind from?

I hope it was a Wonderful 4th and now a great 5th for everyone.

I have to catch up with things...but I'll stop with:

Vancouver, WA

pdxtech91 — July 5, 2011 at 2:25 p.m. ( | suggest removal

In a comment I made at 11:59 am, I had made a suggestion to the mayor of our fine city of Vancouver to join in on the discussion. Now I'm not saying that what I said actually brought him to the FB comment section, but I'm glad he came forth and provided a different perspective of the light rail/BRT maintenance and operations sales tax increase is. Thank you, Mayor Leavitt.

goldenoldie — July 5, 2011 at 3:35 p.m. ( | suggest removal

In regards to John Laird's column. Someone else is asking bobbo the clown to reference his often touted trip to DC with proof. Good luck with that one. I asked for same and of course.......none provided. Once again these so called self professed "conservatives" are wrapped up in issues regarding the legality of homosexual relationships. The clown donning a tutu is nothing unusual. Interesting talk, but nothing new. Lew is raising his concerns once again that incest should be approved by big government, while the clown pushes his humanist doctrinist whateverist up someone else's conservative "death this year" of the oddest commenters ever..FB or the basement....strange days on least it brings a little ... color to the FB format.

nailingit — July 5, 2011 at 6:37 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Was just reading the news on about the fires and damage from fireworks.
They were comparing Portland vs Clark County.
I read some of the comments posted below the article.
I thought I'd share one that made me laugh until tears rolled.

I googled it and yes. 40 times as many humans live in Portland than all of Clark County. 41 million or so versus almost 2 million legals in Clark County.*

When did Portland grow to 41 million and Clark County grow to 2 million?

ELISI — July 5, 2011 at 6:47 p.m. ( | suggest removal

I read the story about the motorcycle rider that hit the lady in the car by Lewisville Park and how she got a ticket for failure to yield and I'll tell you, I live about a mile away from where that accident was and I heard all the sirens this afternoon.

I'm really surprised I don't hear more.

The motorcycle riders REGULARLY turn those bikes up to full tilt going through this area and some hit over 100 mph going up the hill south bound.

***If any of you law enforcement types out there are reading this, it would be nice if you could check this area out some. Also, that butt head in the morning at around 4:30 am going down the hill with his jake brake on full, tends to make me sit straight up in the morning. ***

hawkeye — July 5, 2011 at 9:40 p.m. ( | suggest removal

"asking bobbo the clown to reference his often touted trip to DC with proof. Good luck with that one."

I notice that he also stops posting when confronted. Indicative of bullying type behavior.

mr_basil_seal — July 6, 2011 at 8 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Is he really saying he went to DC to testify? when did that first come up? What did I miss? Someone clue me in, this is too good. Bobbo in DC-what a visual.

luvithere — July 6, 2011 at 8:09 a.m. ( | suggest removal

As I recall, I remember him talking about it over a year ago. He was talking about education and, I think, he was trying to get prayer and religion back into the public schools. He has been "educating" Evergreen School District for quite some time.

hawkeye — July 6, 2011 at 8:21 a.m. ( | suggest removal

nailingit and basil: Robert Larimer, Jr. has spent a lifetime spreading a message of hate. Everytime we give the guy attention, he thrives. He is immune to shame and embarrassment or changing social norms that believe love makes a family. He is not worth the neuron workout that creates a Larimer thought in our heads.

Remember Lon Mabon in Oregon? They were once in cahoots.

He is a bully, indeed.;=PA26&lpg;=PA26&dq;=%22robert+larimer+family+values%22&source;=bl&ots;=G9bvWp3K3M&sig;=x4uv-w3XJIBoGDZlxk-cFiGS0Ys&hl;=en&ei;=_HoUTvqIKIXjiALKrPnLDQ&sa;=X&oi;=book_result&ct;=result&resnum;=3&sqi;=2&ved;=0CCwQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q;&f;=false

manthou — July 6, 2011 at 8:21 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Holy cow Manthou-that's our Larimer? Married three times? Assault on one of the wives?
But fighting to keep the precious institution of marriage to one man, one woman. That figures, it really does.
Even worse than I thought.

luvithere — July 6, 2011 at 8:26 a.m. ( | suggest removal

I just wanted to say many believe that marriage is a sacred and is fundamental building block to our civilization and nation. How the Founding Fathers, like John Quincy Adams, failed to add a protection for marriage in the constitution I'll never understand. So many conservatives want to keep marriage a protected privilege. (not a right). In fact some find it such a holy and sacred rite that they need to perform it 3 or 4 times. Newt, Bob and others are just doing what they can to add more and more building blocks to the foundation civilization. (or are all the former marriages mulligans for the final one?) Hypocrites!

BTW does anyone know if Artimus, Cranky and Ray Menlo were all the same person? They all seem to be missing now.

pdxtech91 — July 6, 2011 at 9:23 a.m. ( | suggest removal

alleycat — July 6, 2011 at 5:38 a.m.

That wouldn't have been a threat of any sort, now would it, alleycat?

Striker991 — July 6, 2011 at 9:39 a.m. ( | suggest removal

pdxtech91: about the only positive outcome of the Facebook requirement in the "high-rent" district of this online commentary, in my humble opinion, is the reduction of multiple sock puppet identities. I thought these multiple personalities from one commenter hungry for attention and dominance often co-opted an otherwise reasonable e-dialogue. This, rather than the negative content of posts, hindered the flow of diverse ideas more than anything.

We all have speculated about who owned the most online identities, but we will never really know, I guess.

I am just glad that they seem to have disappeared. :)

manthou — July 6, 2011 at 9:40 a.m. ( | suggest removal


Wait just a second here..
I am a registered R and have been since I was in my late 20's.
I have never voted a straight ticket, I view those who do an idiot.
I don't beat on my husband of 41 yrs, nor does he me.
You might label me as a bully because I don't take crap from anyone. I learned from my dad (who by the way was a liberal democrat til the day he died) not to be anyone's door mat.
I have nothing against the gay community, I have friends who are gay. You are right about one thing, they are humans. That is what I see I don't see their sexual preference. I believe in God, so what! That is my right! If you don't, that's your right, but don't downgrade me for it!

No one else has the balls to stand up to you, I do!
I sit here day after day and read the crap that you and a few others spew about has gotten to the point that it makes you all look like immature jackass's.
No one is perfect, no one has all the answers Allen.
Learn to criticize yourself before you criticize others.
Day to day you criticize others before you have all the truth.
You listen way too much to the media and swallow the garbage hook, line and sinker.
Allen, if you were to meet me face to face and get to know me, you'd find..
A very compassionate, person that is will to listen, understand and learn from all sides, not just one. A person that is there as a friend, neighbor for anyone in need. I love pulling practical jokes on others, I'm opinionated yes, but not to the point of making enemies or lose a friend over things I can't change.
There is good and bad in everyone Allen, it is up to the individual which path they take. Same goes for political parties. To lump each and everyone that is connected to said party to be like a few bad apples is wrong Allen, so very, very wrong.

ELISI — July 6, 2011 at 9:54 a.m. ( | suggest removal

pdxtech91 — July 6, 2011 at 9:23 a.m

Who is to say that Artimus, Cranky and Ray Menlo isn't Bob Larimer? Plus who knows if Bob Larimer is his real name?

ELISI — July 6, 2011 at 10:02 a.m. ( | suggest removal


Here is some more food for thought

You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity, by legislating the wealth out of prosperity.

What one person receives without working for, another person must work for without receiving.

The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else.

You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it.

When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them, and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work, because somebody else is going to get what they work for, this is the beginning of the end of any nation.

We had a great weekend as our oldest got married on Friday at the beach, great weather too. One of his brothers was able to make it back from Afganistan also to be in the wedding. He shipped back on the 4th which made for a very sad but PROUD 4th. The fifth was better as it tasted so good.. Now lets hope this good weather sticks around till decemebr...

Hi GO... Bet your Tomatoes are growing now.. Mine are full of flowers and even a few little green things on them..

vanwadreamer — July 6, 2011 at 11:32 a.m. ( | suggest removal


I totally agree with you on that, on the same note we have the likes of Clinton, Edwards, comes to mind.
Neither party is without scandal.
Does it make it right? NO

Allen you will find many GOPers do believe in and live by family values so do many Dems!

My dad told me once "a man's _____ (you fill in the blank) has no conscious"
When one adds that to power of office these critters are in, the money, well you'd be quite surprised what you might find out on both parties!

ELISI — July 6, 2011 at 12:38 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Who is to say that Artimus, Cranky and Ray Menlo isn't Bob Larimer? Plus who knows if Bob Larimer is his real name?

ELISI — July 6, 2011 at 10:02 a.m.

We know it must be his real name because he is on Facebook. We have been told that everyone on Facebook is using their real name. Therefore, the only logical conclusion to draw is Facebook users all use their real names and pictures of themselves.

PadmaRani — July 6, 2011 at 1:19 p.m. ( | suggest removal

neither here nor there, but.........

read where Wisconsin taxpayers will have to shell out $69.7 million to cover costs of Talgo (passenger) trains ordered by the previous administration and approved by the state assembly. Seems the federal money Gov. Walker and the Republicans refused, which was then given to Washington state, was to cover this. But when they refused it, the contracts had already been signed. The money they lost exceeded the maintenance costs for a lot of years. Seems they're stuck buying trains the guv might not have wanted. Oh well, can't win them all.

mrd — July 6, 2011 at 1:24 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Hey Padma,

I even called the Columbian using a trusty telephone. When they heard me speak, they were very relieved to know that I was a real person. Of course, once I told them that my Facebook account was real, it was as if a huge weight had been lifted off their shoulders. It gave me great pleasure to offer my reassuring voice.

Imagine the happiness and tranquility we could bring to the Columbian staff if we all gave in, registered for Facebook accounts (certainly not with fake names and pictures), and called in to share our Facebook names. The phones ringing nonstop would be music to their ears, I'm sure!

playa — July 6, 2011 at 1:52 p.m. ( | suggest removal

PadmaRani — July 6, 2011 at 1:19 p.m

Wrong PadmaRani, I have seen more than just a couple names on FB side of comments that are not real names.

The Columbian said something to the effect that if you use a fake name/photo the person must provide a phone number for them to call to guarantee they are a real person behind the fake name/photo... well DUH...I don't think a dog or an orange is randomly striking keyboards to post FB comments.

ELISI — July 6, 2011 at 2:20 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Ok I am a small business owner. Just wanted to throw that out. I get no tax breaks what so ever. I would be though in FAVOR of a Flat Tax, how about you?? I'm all for everyone paying there fair share never said I wasn't. Thats not republican propaganda, I just ahte to see people so narrow minded that they can't actually see the forest through the trees. And trying to have a reasonable educated discussion with them on either side, ain't happening.. We need to get by this narrow ideology and open our minds up a bit more.

Our current President could have taken away some of these Tax breaks given to Corporations but did not. It's not a Demo or Repub issue, It's a who wants to actually lead this country and make the tough decision that need to be made. Do you think these corporations are going to leave, come on were buttering there sliced bread...

vanwadreamer — July 6, 2011 at 2:27 p.m. ( | suggest removal

This came from the High Rent Comment Section under the article:
"Leaders trade bridge barbs"

It's from Michael Berry:

"...The people had a voice 3 years ago when they approved the **LPA**, which included light rail. We elected those "elite" people to serve us. Personally, I saw Leavitt's "no tolls" stance as a shallow gimmick from the beginning, didn't you?..."

Can someone explain what we/I may have voted for?
What is LPA?
Little Peoples of America?, Lincoln Park Academy?, Legislative and Public Affairs? What might I have voted for but didn't know or understand it.

pdxtech91 — July 6, 2011 at 3:05 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Maybe "**Liberal Progressive Agenda**"? I don't know.

pdxtech91 — July 6, 2011 at 3:13 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Hi kids,

Stopped by Walmart to get prescriptions for the inlaws again today and guess what? I saw a little girl trying to get people to sign petitions again soooooo, I asked her what they were for.

She told me one of them was to get everyone that took care of old people certified by the state so we wouldn't have "scam artists" out there taking advantage of the elderly. I told her that was a good idea but I needed more info so I would look it up. It said "measure 1163".

Then she told me the other one was to keep the state from charging us tolls of $7.50 each way on the interstate and Glen Jackson bridges. I asked her who told her it was going to be $7.50 and she said her Preacher told her that was the cost and she knew it was true because*** "he looked it up on the internet".*** I asked her the measure number but she didn't know and it wasn't on the sign-up sheet. I also asked her who she was working for but all she knew was that they turned in all their petitions to Tim Eyeman every week.

After all that, I told her that to be doing what she was doing, she should know all there is to know about each measure and she needs to learn more before asking others to support her. She told me that she was "just doing her job".

So if any of you get by Walmart in Hazel Dell, stop by and ask a few questions, if not for the info then for the entertainment value.

hawkeye — July 6, 2011 at 3:18 p.m. ( | suggest removal


The Flat Tax gets kicked around but neither major party wants to make any significant changes to the tax code. (**FEAR**) Forbes had that as his major talking point in his run for the GOP the presidential candidate and went no where. The backers of Ron Paul talked alot about it. But once they got thrown in with the other disenfranchised groups and became the Astroturf Tea Party it's all but disappeared again.

pdxtech91 — July 6, 2011 at 3:24 p.m. ( | suggest removal

pdxtech91, I wish LPA stood for Little Peoples of America but it's that dreaded Locally-Preferred Alternative that various Vancouver and Portland Working Groups had agreed upon and submitted to the 39-member CRC Task Force. If you check the CRC website, you could pull up just who was involved in making the LPA choice.

goldenoldie — July 6, 2011 at 3:31 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Good day to you too, vanwadreamer. My tomatoes are loaded with blooms and long stems but none bearing fruit yet. My peas are plumping up and the green beans are all in bloom, though. And the potatoes are blooming and starting to show the signs of dieback which will mean the big dig, lol.

goldenoldie — July 6, 2011 at 3:34 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Hey GO, my tomatoes are huge but no blooms yet, guess they need more sun.

hawkeye — July 6, 2011 at 3:37 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Thanks GO,

When I read the CRC website, I didn't realize that htey called their plan the "Locally-Preferred **Alternative**".

I thought they just rejected all the alternatives out-of-hand with any excuse they think of. I didn't know the original plan was the alternative plan.

pdxtech91 — July 6, 2011 at 3:46 p.m. ( | suggest removal

ELISI - I see you are unfamiliar with sarcasm...

PadmaRani — July 6, 2011 at 5:10 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Thanks for the clarification on the LPA "vote" - I was wondering if I'd gone senile and forgotten it. So, Mr. Berry is playing word games by saying we've voted. Out of curiosity, were any of these working groups government entities that were elected by the voters? Seems to me most were various special interest groups like ICC, and some quasi-official groups like C-Tran. So, even if Mr. Berry is trying to play the representative gov't vote card, I'd say he missed the mark.

roger — July 6, 2011 at 5:43 p.m. ( | suggest removal

In fact, I just remembered that both Clark County and Vancouver City governments have recently claimed they have no say in the CRC - that it's above their level. So even if ex-Mayor Pollard or then Vancouver City Council member Leavitt were members of those working groups, they couldn't have been representing the voters.

roger — July 6, 2011 at 5:48 p.m. ( | suggest removal

PadmaRani — July 6, 2011 at 5:10 p.m

It's been one of those kinda days for me.

Excuse me while I roll off this chair and back into the orange crate I came from :)

ELISI — July 6, 2011 at 6:08 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Someone at the Big C should do a little research on the allegations of a beating at the rainbow camp. It appears that a man was beaten pretty badly. He got robbed and got his head bashed in,(they used a baseball bat) along with broken bones. he was carrying a cooler and they just helped themselves to everything. They also took his shoes. The Skamania sheriffs office is supposed to be looking into it but as of right now they don't have anyone who will talk to them. This guy was life-flighted out of there.

So much for all that coom-by-ya and love and respect,eh?

JohnCasey — July 6, 2011 at 7:42 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Hey cat, was that a cop that ODed?

Without any proof, I highly doubt your statement.

hawkeye — July 6, 2011 at 10:41 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Allen — July 6, 2011 at 9:57 p.m.

LOL Allen, yeah you can borrow a orange crate any time.. :)

ELISI — July 7, 2011 at 12:52 a.m. ( | suggest removal

alleycat — July 7, 2011 at 6:45 a.m

Can't you see that what you speak of isn't the right or left by themselves doing this, they both are so this country can move to the Euro?
Just another step towards a one world government...

ELISI — July 7, 2011 at 8:23 a.m. ( | suggest removal

"1/3 of the attendants of a rainbow gathering are cops from different agencies and undercover..."-alleycat

Please quote your source for these stats. Tnx.

scotty — July 7, 2011 at 8:25 a.m. ( | suggest removal

"""Are you Prepared??? The Zombie Apocalypse is here!!!

Am I joking? Actually, yes but leaning more towards no.

It's the Dumbing Down process we have heard about for so long. Yes, it sounds funny but it's true. Do your homework and review history...about 40-50
years is a good start. We used to watch shows like Father Knows Best, Leave it to Beaver and I Love Lucy. In the 70's, it was the beginning of the new anti-government, anti-society, free love society where the young adults recognized what went on on these television shows wasn't real life and the rebellious hippie era blossomed. Divorce rates skyrocketed and society forever changed.

People, do you realize just who is to blame? Have you ever noticed how the shows follow the trends of society...or vice versa??? Do you remember the old shows like "Hill Street Blues," "Miami Vice" and "21 Jump Street?" Just watching how they had evolved from "Adam 12" or even "Car 54 Where are You" is enough to put a thorn in your britches. Now look at how the shows are geared towards more violent scenes; shows like "CSI Miami," "CSI New York," "NCIS," "On the Border," " Criminal Minds," and "Without a Trace." Compound that with real shows like "Cops," "America's Most Wanted," "Kidnap and Rescue," "Police Women of Broward County" along with a continued list of others and cartoon shows with absolutely rotten episodes showing attacks, self-inflicted injuries, terrorism and "Family Guy and The Simpsons." I won't even begin on the movie industry. That'll take too much space.

Then to compound everything, there's the conspiracy theory shows putting thoughts in the minds of people to the point that we're getting apprehensive even to support our own government...You've got to ask yourself...why is that???

Ah yes...then there's the reality shows like "The Girls Next Door," "Keeping Up with the Kardashians," "16 and Pregnant," "Bad Girls Club," "Jersey Shore" and others like "Mob Wives..." Such role model television for our teens, huh!

Then there's the prank and stunt shows which adults perform on like "Jackass" and "Punk'd" and the youth of today find these types of shows as FUN entertainment.

Just remember who is in charge of just what goes on the television screen. Can anybody say....F - - C - - C- - ???? We all know who runs that entity now, don't we!!!

Thanks big brother. Glad I could finally come to my senses and see the real reasoning behind our country going to crap! Hopefully more will see what I have come to recognize as the root of the problems in our society.

Happy Zombie Apocalypse...NOT!"""

(Just some food for thought, folks. Whether or not you take it seriously, it all depends on you.)

goldenoldie — July 7, 2011 at 8:51 a.m. ( | suggest removal

So let me get this right here. The Rainbow Gathering had a temporary population explosion of over 20,000 people. A woman suffered the ills of drug overdose and died...discovered in the morning yet bloggers on the FB comment section claim everyone should have recognized she had OD'd probably because it was too late. There were around 300 citations and reports of assaults, traffic collisions and marijuana, heroin, psychedelic mushroom and acid use. A man was injured in a motorcycle accident near Curly Creek and a car crash on HWY 14 was supposedly connected to the gathering. A 50-year-old man from back east died during the set up of the camp...still under investigation by the medical examiner. The article claimed many were detained on active warrants but the actuals were not provided. There had been a few reported assaults yet no arrests.

Now bear in mind, we're talking about a population similar to Battleground which suddenly blossomed in the GPNF with people coming from ALL walks of life, joining in for a joyous occasion...of spiritual cleansing and the expressed need for our world to come together as one. Easily, the article portrayed this gathering as one of violence, drugs and an all around bad situation with problems of jostling around those who were arrested to prevent overcrowding in their jail systems. Why is that? If at the most, maybe 700 out of 20,000 (3% of the entire crowd at the gathering) or more had issues related to crime and violence, it any worse than what Anytown America is suffering?

The message of WORLD PEACE was the SPECIFIC goal of the Rainbow Gathering. Why is it the focus had to be on the bad issues, limited as they were, which surfaced before, during and after the event? Mainstream media at work again???

Maybe my post at 8:51 am isn't so off the wall after all!

goldenoldie — July 7, 2011 at 9:16 a.m. ( | suggest removal

I have one slight correction in my comment at 8:51 am. I should have stated the hippie era began in the 60's not the 70's, although that is still questionable since the "Beatniks" were around in the 50's... and even they began in the 40's. But then again, there were the "Daddy Hipsters" of 1910. Maybe some of us old hippies have been around since the beginning of time, lololol.

Peace, man.

goldenoldie — July 7, 2011 at 9:39 a.m. ( | suggest removal

"""Thank God there is Animal Planet and National Geographic among some of the best channels I can find."""

That's not God you should thank, alleycat. That's the package you have. We didn't have that package. For now though...I can go on their websites and watch the videos of choice if and whenever I want as long as I have access to the internet.

goldenoldie — July 7, 2011 at 9:54 a.m. ( | suggest removal

goldenoldie — July 7, 2011 at 9:39 a.m.

This Is The Beat Generation

by John Clellon Holmes
The New York Times Magazine, November 16, 1952

Any attempt to label an entire generation is unrewarding, and yet the generation which went through the last war, or at least could get a drink easily once it was over, seems to possess a uniform, general quality which demands an adjective ... The origins of the word 'beat' are obscure, but the meaning is only too clear to most Americans. More than mere weariness, it implies the feeling of having been used, of being raw. It involves a sort of nakedness of mind, and, ultimately, of soul; a feeling of being reduced to the bedrock of consciousness. In short, it means being undramatically pushed up against the wall of oneself. A man is beat whenever he goes for broke and wagers the sum of his resources on a single number; and the young generation has done that continually from early youth.

Its members have an instinctive individuality, needing no bohemianism or imposed eccentricity to express it. Brought up during the collective bad circumstances of a dreary depression, weaned during the collective uprooting of a global war, they distrust collectivity. But they have never been able to keep the world out of their dreams. The fancies of their childhood inhabited the half-light of Munich, the Nazi-Soviet pact, and the eventual blackout. Their adolescence was spent in a topsy-turvy world of war bonds, swing shifts, and troop movements. They grew to independent mind on beachheads, in gin mills and USO's, in past-midnight arrivals and pre-dawn departures. Their brothers, husbands, fathers or boy friends turned up dead one day at the other end of a telegram. At the four trembling corners of the world, or in the home town invaded by factories or lonely servicemen, they had intimate experience with the nadir and the zenith of human conduct, and little time for much that came between. The peace they inherited was only as secure as the next headline. It was a cold peace. Their own lust for freedon, and the ability to live at a pace that kills (to which the war had adjusted them), led to black markets, bebop, narcotics, sexual promiscuity, hucksterism, and Jean-Paul Sartre. The beatness set in later.

mr_basil_seal — July 7, 2011 at 10:07 a.m. ( | suggest removal

GO, I have to admit I like some of those shows. Just one question though.

Who are the "Kardashians" and why are they famous? As far as I can see (and I've never seen their show) they have no talent or class.

hawkeye — July 7, 2011 at 10:08 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Basil...thanks for sharing. I read something very similar before posting my comment on "Beatniks." It almost sounds as if history is repeating itself but instead of the Great Depression and WW-II, it's the Greater Depression and Iraq/Afghanistan and the Middle East Crisis.


Hawkeye, what you said about the don't need to see the show. You are right...they have no talent or class. And Hawk, I like to watch some of those shows as well, but when you look at the entire list of television shows out there...the selection is highly controlled and is pointing to one direction, a direction nobody should be manipulated to watch and anybody who has a television is having just that done to them without even realizing.

goldenoldie — July 7, 2011 at 10:14 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Allen — July 7, 2011 at 10:05 a.m.

Economist Takes Scathing Look At US Transportation Infrastructure

And according to a World Economic Forum study America’s infrastructure has got worse, by comparison with other countries, over the past decade. In the WEF 2010 league table **America now ranks 23rd for overall infrastructure quality, between Spain and Chile**. Its roads, railways, ports and air-transport infrastructure are all judged mediocre against networks in northern Europe.

mr_basil_seal — July 7, 2011 at 10:17 a.m. ( | suggest removal

For me alleycat, I'd rather watch life as it happens and see it for myself rather than something meant to fit in a one-hour time slot on a rectangular box hanging from the wall or standing on a TV stand.

goldenoldie — July 7, 2011 at 10:24 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Basil...I'm curious about something. Why is it so important that our highway/rail infrastructure must meet or surpass that of another nation? As long as the rails move the goods and the highways serve their purpose of functionality, what else is there? I can understand the seaports and airports but why the rails and highways? I'd think it would be more important to focus on the manufacturing industry and getting the US back into a more independent mode than I would upgrading to a hyper-speed rail service or mega-lane highway systems.

goldenoldie — July 7, 2011 at 10:28 a.m. ( | suggest removal

goldenoldie — July 7, 2011 at 10:14 a.m.

Yes, the beatnik / hippie movements both addressed larger elements of what was happening in the general culture.

An interesting look into the change can be seen by looking at K. Kesey / T. Wolff /H.S. Thompson writings.

mr_basil_seal — July 7, 2011 at 10:28 a.m. ( | suggest removal

"1/3 of the attendants of a rainbow gathering are cops from different agencies and undercover..."-alleycat

Please quote your source for these stats. Tnx.

(2nd request)

scotty — July 7, 2011 at 10:29 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Scotty, I think alleycat was being a bit facetious, but you never know just who was amongst the crowd. Maybe alley knew something we didn't. After all, they have attended the Rainbow Gathering in the past. Could be why you aren't getting an answer.

goldenoldie — July 7, 2011 at 10:35 a.m. ( | suggest removal

goldenoldie — July 7, 2011 at 10:28 a.m.

Well, to start....

Did you know that trucking co. factor in the miles of chipseal they have to use? Cheaper road repair but higher resistance and lower mileage.

Also, from the same source:
"And America’s population will likely increase by 40% over the next four decades, putting even more strain on our suffering transit infrastructure."

The report looks at much more than "hyper-speed rail service or mega-lane highway systems."

"Total public spending on transport and water infrastructure has fallen steadily since the 1960s and now stands at 2.4% of GDP. Europe, by contrast, invests 5% of GDP in its infrastructure, while China is racing into the future at 9%"

mr_basil_seal — July 7, 2011 at 10:39 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Basil, I believe in cities like LA, NYC, Chicago and Boston will never be able to keep up with transit demand no matter what improvements are made but if you look at cities like LaCenter or Stevenson or even The Dalles or Pendleton, I don't think transit infrastructure is an issue. And Basil, there's far more towns like the latter than there are the mega cities I had mentioned. As far as regions like Vancouver and Clark County or even cities like Pullman or Walla Walla, I don't think the numbers in the past decade warrant the negative financial implications which come with the territory when implementing light rail into their transit infrastructure. As far as Clark County is concerned, the numbers projected in 2005 were way higher than what has actually happened by 2010. You see Basil, I would accept light rail IF in fact, the numbers supported the claims by the RTC but they don' that's why I don't support light rail to Clark County, pure and simple.

goldenoldie — July 7, 2011 at 10:49 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Also Basil, I believe stricter immigration laws and more secure borders will prevent a good chunk of that 40% increase in population.

goldenoldie — July 7, 2011 at 10:50 a.m. ( | suggest removal

goldenoldie — July 7, 2011 at 10:49 a.m

The Economist report ( ) only briefly discusses passenger rail. And that is mostly in terms of commuter (from NJ to NYC primarily) service on the East coast.

The focus of the report really is on trucks,trains, planes as transporting goods with some discussion on the length of time commuters spend on the road.

Locally and regionally we have all manner of (unfortunately largely imported) goods dispersed on those trucks,trains, planes.

mr_basil_seal — July 7, 2011 at 11:29 a.m. ( | suggest removal

mr_basil_seal — July 7, 2011 at 11:29 a.m.
"The focus of the report really is on trucks,trains, planes as transporting goods with some discussion on the length of time commuters spend on the road."

And, of course, there is the obligatory point to be made that our transportation system is a large part of the reason we Americans are prodigious users of carbon-based energy......

mr_basil_seal — July 7, 2011 at 11:45 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Basil, I originally was speaking of rail for freight transport. I think both of us alleviated from what the original intent was. I don't have time right now to go over the links you have provided but I will be checking over them in an hour or so and get back to you.

goldenoldie — July 7, 2011 at 1:01 p.m. ( | suggest removal

My prayer of the day -

Oh LORD, please protect me from the dumbing down effect of the Zombie Apocalypse!!!!

Case in point: Today's news...

*Grass fire closes portion of Highway 14*

First paragraph of article:

*A grass fire burning in the Columbia River Gorge Wednesday night forced the closure of a portion of Highway 14 about 30 miles east of White Salmon for over five hours.*

First Facebook Comment:

(Kristin Gabbert) *where's wishram?*

goldenoldie — July 7, 2011 at 1:05 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Alleycat, you're going off the rails on a crazy train, again...

When one displays such grotesque, anti-police hatred after carrying on about peace and love, it really discredits everything else said.

"Cops need to understand that they are not liked"

By you. And criminals. And some malcontents.

"Their "aura" of blind superiority"

...that you perceive, while others do not. One has to wonder, why do certain people tend to perceive things like this?

"and blatant "obtuseness" is insulting to free people."

Without police, free people end up being victimized people or dead people.

"We don't call 911. Don't need them."

Even a cursory review of the news proves this false.

"That is the way third world countries protect the powerful. They hire their own security, they live in compounds with guards and electric fences to keep the rest out."

Now you're on to something. So, let's review. You have pointed out how civilized countries with police forces differ from barbaric third world countries. It's true, the civilized countries are better off and safer. While it works against your overall premise, thanks for pointing that out.

"Besides, I can "sniff out" a cop easily....they smell different"

Complete and total rubbish.

"that smell of "abuse of power" and intimidation is overwhelming"

Utter nonsense.

"Some of them are disgustingly fat"

Yes, obesity is a problem in America, and many other parts of the world. Some workers in every profession are fat. Ridiculous statement.

"they hide their cowardly eyes behind those "shades" afraid of the common man"

Have you been watching too many movies lately? Did the crooked cop *characters* give you nightmares? LOL

"and thirsty for the kill first and the questions later"

Yes, I love this forgot to throw in "jackbooted" for good measure. It is completely logical that rather than living normal lives without guilt or PTSD, police officers salivate at the thought of killing people and hope every day that they will get the chance to do so.

You want peace and love? How about you share it with all? You don't like being judged? Consider what you are doing with your statements.

Again, it's quite sad when people who could be taken seriously, and perhaps even be considered intelligent, shoot themselves in the foot by spewing this sort of bile.

playa — July 7, 2011 at 1:22 p.m. ( | suggest removal

goldenoldie — July 7, 2011 at 1:05 p.m.


mr_basil_seal — July 7, 2011 at 1:23 p.m. ( | suggest removal

playa — July 7, 2011 at 1:22 p.m.

Thank you, well put.

mr_basil_seal — July 7, 2011 at 1:26 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Okay Basil, I'm back. Now...regarding the list of energy consumption by countries globally, the data is 8 years old so I'll take into the fact that the movement by people to purchase hybrid vehicles and increase alternate energy usage in their homes and businesses has most likely changed our data. Even by looking at the 2003 stats...IF I'm reading them right, we are still doing a better job than our neighbor to the north as well as Qatar, Iceland, Bahrain, the Netherlands and United Arab Emirates. Now you also must figure in the lifestyle of some of the countries mentioned. Many countries do not provide electricity to the people...only the government. Also, countries like Greece have utilized solar water heating for years so their numbers will be lower. Also, it wasn't till well into the 80's that Greek families would have more than one vehicle. I know...because I have relatives who live throughout Greece AND I lived there for a few months and witnessed just how the people got around and how many people had electricity. When we stayed there, everyone utilized Propane for their stoves or used wood stoves and wood-burning bread ovens for cooking...OR outside in a fire pit with a rotisserie. As far as now...they couldn't afford to fill the tank if their lives depended upon it. And yes, I can see where you are coming from when you state the US's dependence on carbon based energy, but don't you think we can adequately balance the utilization of carbon based energy with alternate energies? If you figure in using light rail or electric cars...carbon based energy is still being used nationally here.

goldenoldie — July 7, 2011 at 1:42 p.m. ( | suggest removal

correction: If you figure in using light rail or electric cars, carbon based energy is still being used nationally to provide the energy to charge the vehicles or to run the trains on the tracks.

goldenoldie — July 7, 2011 at 1:53 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Okay, NOW I'm REALLY getting ticked off at the press!!!

The article about the young lady found dead at the Rainbow Gathering has been updated and a new article has popped up that there is no evidence she died of an OD even though the first article claimed it was suspected as an OD. Stereotyping again are we???

My sincere apology to the family and friends of the young lady as I was merely reacting on what I read. Some day maybe the concept of FACTS will come back to the C...some day, MAYBE.


I'm wondering if her death was caused by smoke inhalation from the campfires. That apparently was quite a problem at Skookum Meadows over the weekend according to accounts by those on FB who attended. Either way, my thoughts and prayers to those who knew her.

goldenoldie — July 7, 2011 at 2:05 p.m. ( | suggest removal

hawkeye — July 6, 2011 at 3:18 p.m--
HA! I've seen those people out at my grocery stores the last few weeks.
DUDE: Excuse me, are you a registered voter?
ME: Yep
DUDE: Could you help me out with something?
ME: What?? What do you want me to sign? (Looking at tablet)
DUDE: I was hoping that you could sign this to help pass a law allowing liquor (points to store) sales in grocery stores, etc....
ME: (thinking to myself) Didn't this get voted against last year?
DUDE: Yea, (then all I hear is blah, blah, etc etc)
ME: NO, I voted against it and I don't sign for anything I don't research first in the first place. In addition, why would I want to sign for something to get back on the ballot that was voted down in the first place? No thanks.

He got kind of a messed up look on his face, like HOW dare you want to research?! UGH! These people drive me nuts. Anything EYEMAN brings up is nuts. However, they are fun to poke and make them think while their trying to convince you to sign something you have no idea about. Then, when it comes time to vote, I'm guessing a good chunk of the people don't actually research and reflect on what the proposed bill is about and what is all entailed and how it'll be funded, etc.

Tired_of_the_Whining — July 7, 2011 at 2:18 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Solar power is still more expensive than your typical fossil fuel by 3 or 4 times. I'm all in Favor of Solar, Electric, Hydrogen forms of energy but we need to make them effiecent and cost effective prior to bringing them to bear as a whole. We do however need to find a cost effective alternative fuel source, what that will be now I don't know. Hydrogen seems like the most likely alternative, but the government seems willing only to invest in R&D; but no infrastructure to support on the back end.

vanwadreamer — July 7, 2011 at 2:43 p.m. ( | suggest removal

You're right, vanwadreamer. Solar is still too expensive for the average family to invest in...even though it ends up paying for itself in the long run - and I do mean long run. I do wish the cost to the buyer was more affordable up front.

goldenoldie — July 7, 2011 at 3 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Typical rumor-mongering are you Columbian?

It was once stated during the Jacks story that the Columbian refuses to comment on a story until all the facts are in.

Tell me something then Lou, if you can, why the double standard here with the Kellar story?

So you will only print facts, no rumors about elected critters, but.. anyone else is fair game to print rumors? Disgusting..

ELISI — July 7, 2011 at 3:21 p.m. ( | suggest removal


"That you disagree does not make you right."

That you speculate, that you take independent incidents and apply them to police across the board, and that you stereotype most certainly does not make you right.

"Well, some citizens have their own "brotherhood", don't need the police and can protect themselves even better even to the point of pro activity."

Oh how I wish those foolish enough to say these sorts of things could be forced to live by them.

"Cops come after the fact and are blatantly incompetent at everything they do."

Really? That's quite a conclusion you've come to! It's almost amusing how sure you seem about such a ridiculous claim.

"I am still wondering about that kid missing in Portland named Kyron."

Ah. So that's how it works, eh? See story on news. Draw conclusions, fill in blanks. Stereotype all involved, all not involved, all who even dare choose a related career.

"the cops drive by and talk on their cell phone to their next date"

Do you write your own material? Are you trying to be outrageous?

"they even date informants as reported recently and then have the nerve to request being reinstated AND they do so with the blessing of a dubious City Manager racket power"

Ah. I get it. You saw another news story. I'll bet you then filled in the blanks and worked hard to reinforce your misguided ideas.

"Look dude, I am sick and tired of citizens like you that bend to corruption."

I don't bend to corruption. I support the elimination of corruption. Your method of vilifying all police rather than dealing with the problems (that exist in all professions and walks of life) is not productive, it's quite unreasonable, and quite frankly, reprehensible.

"Some of us, chose to turn our backs to institutionalized corruption."

Your way of doing it accomplishes nothing, taints your messages, and alienates reasonable people. Not good.

"And yes, officers salivate for a kill."

With that particular statement, you have pretty much destroyed all your credibility. It is so patently absurd to say, let alone repeat and stand by it.

"Fact is that they police themselves, do their own investigations and come up with their own innocent conclusions. The eveidence is overwhelming as well."

Yeah, I saw that on TV once, too.

playa — July 7, 2011 at 3:35 p.m. ( | suggest removal

(cont) Alleycat,

"Anything else you did not like about what I said?"

You better believe it! But then again, now that I'm thinking back, I'm reminded that you're the same guy who got upset because firemen stop at the store in their fire truck. You seem to jump to a lot of unfounded conclusions based on what you've seen or heard, without understanding details or logistics. Firemen must have made a special trip in a fire truck just to go to the store, not that they happened to pass by while doing legitimate work. Police officers love killing people because they carry guns and sometimes have to shoot them. I saw a police officer on a cell phone once...surely the call was not work related. So on and so forth...

"By the way, I witnessed cops conversations on a daily basis at lunch time and I know what I am talking about."

Oh my...I'm gonna have to take it all back now. I didn't realize that you had witnessed enough conversations, in all precincts, in all organizations, across the country, in order to gain this "wisdom" you've shared. I'll now set aside all that I've experienced, seen, and known.

"Trust none!"

I'm afraid I can't trust anyone who follows or agrees with your thought process. And once again, let me point out that I do like some of what you have to say around here (city government, bridge, light rail, mayor, politicians, corruption), but I find this angle incredibly disappointing and depressing.

playa — July 7, 2011 at 3:36 p.m. ( | suggest removal

" Even by looking at the 2003 stats...IF I'm reading them right, we are still doing a better job than our neighbor to the north as well as Qatar, Iceland, Bahrain, the Netherlands and United Arab Emirates."

Well, first most of those are not countries with which we share many demographic similarities. Nor physical / geographical.

If we took our northern states and did a comparo with Canada, there would be a difference for example.

I'll dig around later, but my guess is that the hybrids don't do much overall. Truck sales haven't been neg. and most cars haven't increased in mileage. The small car/hybrid market is a small portion of the industry still.

" *If you figure in using light rail or electric cars...carbon based energy is still being used nationally here*."

Might want to look up the stats on alt./renewables and compare to new fossil/nuc plant construction. And there is a lot of political talk about all the oil / nuc subsidies and safety issues.

And the public is starting to 'get' that there are serious externalized costs to continuing the profligacy of our energy production and use.

Notice the denier camp has been fairly silent? No good news for them coming from any real science; the public is 'getting it' (sorta like how your efforts are now moving into mainstream conversations - we're not the weirdos now), politicians (except for the Inhofe-types) aren't pushing their agenda as hard. I think we'll be seeing more campaign talking points endorsing environmental concerns.

Back in a couple of days.

mr_basil_seal — July 7, 2011 at 4:14 p.m. ( | suggest removal

ELISI, maybe I can clear something up for you.

We never heard anything official on Jacks regarding the rumors that floated around.

As Lou said in a column,

"The Columbian searched for any kind of paper trail. Any records explaining why Jacks might have decided to suddenly give it up. But unlike public records in most other public bodies, the state Legislature cooked into the law books an ability to keep some of its stuff private. It’s a little something special for them.

So even if there was a paper trail, it wasn’t available to us."

But in this case, we heard from a Skamania County official that it was an apparent drug overdose. Our reporter was told on the record that it was a suspected drug overdose, and that's what we reported.

We'll have more later tonight or tomorrow on the death. No matter how you look at it, it's still a sad story.

Furthermore, reporter Ray Legendre -- who wrote the first story about her death -- left a comment, trying to clear things up:

"Hello everyone. First, my condolences to Amber's family and friends. Second, Sheriff Dave Brown provided information to me Wednesday that Amber died of an apparent drug overdose earlier in the day. The Skamania Sheriff's Office released its' first press release about her death today. The press release said she died of apparent medical issues. I spoke with Sheriff Brown this afternoon about the disparity in information. That will be addressed in Friday's Columbian. One more thing: The toxicology results won't be known for six to eight weeks, according to an official with the Skamania Coroner's Office."

Matt Wastradowski — July 7, 2011 at 5 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Matt, Matt, Matt!!!

Just what are we gonna do with you folks???

If the toxicology results won't be known for six to eight weeks and there was no evidence at the scene which would lead to the assumption that drugs played a role in the woman's death, wouldn't you put two and two together to discover the answer to be four rather than seven or eight??? What I'm saying is although Sheriff Brown's information stated probable cause, wouldn't you think for a second that maybe, just maybe there was a tad bit of inaccuracy on the part of the "credible source?" It's no offense to Sheriff Brown, but all we've been reading lately is the bad side of the Rainbow Gathering and how the Forest Service had to bring in more crew to monitor the situation, how the Skamania County Sheriff's Office was concerned about overcrowding...

and very little to do with why the gathering met in the first place.

I'm not the reporter and I'm certainly not trying to tell you folks how to do your job but wouldn't it have been better for the Columbian if it was just reported that the woman was found dead and that the investigation was ongoing? There were issues of smoke inhalation from the campfire smoke which hovered over Skookum Meadows according to participants who posted on your comment section through FB yet I don't recall any information listed in the article. Also...did anybody bother to find out if the woman had a known medical history?

Time to stop the sensationalizing to sell and tell the news as it is, Matt. What a concept that would be, huh!

goldenoldie — July 7, 2011 at 5:15 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Oh Matt me boy, tsk tsk to what you have said..

Doesn't matter if the elected critters "cooked into the law books"

Every single person has the right to have truth told.
The Columbian could have easily said of Kellar, that the cause death is under investigation.

Six to eight weeks for the Toxicology tests?
WOW, and to think, it only took minutes for the government to find out through tests that the body they had was Bin Laden?

ELISI — July 7, 2011 at 5:59 p.m. ( | suggest removal


The park where the Rainbow group gathered is on State or Fed owned land right?

Correct me if I am wrong here but if a death occurs on such owned land, all tests are done by the state, not a county.
So wouldn't the samples be sent to Olympia or Seattle?

ELISI — July 7, 2011 at 6:31 p.m. ( | suggest removal

And the winners of the message of the day are ELISI and Alleycat!

The message of the day???

"Unless you're a famous person, the gubment will take it's own sweet time."

goldenoldie — July 7, 2011 at 6:33 p.m. ( | suggest removal

LOL Gold....I give you a GOLD STAR!!

ELISI — July 7, 2011 at 6:34 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Man it sure is quiet in here...wait, is that the sounds of, of..
YES! I knew it...its the sound of back peddling coming from downtown..

ELISI — July 7, 2011 at 6:39 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Yeah, I noticed it too! I believe I hear an **ECHO, echo,**!

goldenoldie — July 7, 2011 at 6:42 p.m. ( | suggest removal


ELISI — July 7, 2011 at 6:43 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Interesting question, Elisi, but the answer is no. Even autopsies on state and federal land are handled by the local authorities. In this case, because Skamania County has a contract with the Clark County Medical Examiner, the exam will be handled in Clark County.

Goldie: We regret how this story has unfolded, but the contradictory information from investigators and others in the field did not become available until today, after the original story ran. There was nothing at the time to lead us to believe that the top law enforcement officer in Skamania County was not speaking authoritatively on the subject.

Skamania County Sheriff Dave Brown now admits he "probably stepped over the line" by making that statement without consulting with his investigator.

Mark Bowder (Columbian Staff) — July 7, 2011 at 8:05 p.m. ( | suggest removal


What is it about this place that goes junkyard dog mean every so often?

Look. I like it when the Columbian staff show up here, interact and answer questions. And no, I don't always like the answers, but I appreciate the effort.

Why would they continue if, when they honestly answer questions or explain their reasoning, they risk ridicule and incessant shaming.

Is it the after dinner wine loosening your fingers and fogging your judgment?

Help me understand, 'cause I don't git it.

manthou — July 7, 2011 at 8:20 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Okay this is not about the reporting on the death at Rainbow Gathering, seems the Skamania sheriff is, perhaps, exaggerating things. Instead this is a post about the way the Columbian/Facebook counts posts. There is a ltte that I am following: "Progressives move nation forward" if you look on the ltte page it has seven comments but if you read the comments there are actually 34 (as of 2024 pst). The Columbian/Facebook doesn't seem to understand the fact that there are multiple layers here, seven top level posts and 27 second level posts. Frankly, for anyone trying to follow the discussion this sucks. Is there any way for the Columbian to ignore the Facebook count and accurately report the number of comments? It would certainly make following lttes easier.

dfsadfh — July 7, 2011 at 8:32 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Thanks Mark for answering my question. So the Skamania county isn't handling the exam Clark County is.

I have to agree with the Sheriff, he did over step his authority in making an assumption on the cause. The medical examiner is the only one qualified to have answered. On that note Mark, that leads me back to, why didn't the paper simply say the cause of death is under investigation or the cause of death will be determined when the toxicology tests are done?

ELISI — July 7, 2011 at 9:20 p.m. ( | suggest removal


First off I don't drink any alcohol of any kind.
Second, I too appreciate the staff answering the questions we so often have. When done so honestly as they have done today.
Third, I question everything, always have always will if I feel or see something isn't right.

When one gets no answers or only part answers, and misinformation, well what do you think how the family of that woman feels? How would you feel if it were your sister, or daughter?
To sit back and do nothing and allow the LEO's and the media to say and print misinformation is wrong.
We, are the only ones to hold them accountable,.. tell the truth not assumptions is all I ask.

ELISI — July 7, 2011 at 9:37 p.m. ( | suggest removal

You're welcome, Elisi. I wish this conversation wasn't necessary. No matter how it happened, we reported something inaccurate. We regret that.

We initially reported what we did rather than something more nebulous because the elected official charged with overseeing law enforcement in Skamania County told us something more definitive.

As far as we knew at the time, what we were told was not an assumption. It was the official, on-the-record position of the Skamania County Sheriff's Office.

Mark Bowder (Columbian Staff) — July 7, 2011 at 9:42 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Mark, it was an assumption on his part.
As I said he wasn't qualified to have even said it, the medical examiner is.

ELISI — July 7, 2011 at 9:58 p.m. ( | suggest removal

For those interested here is a link to 9 foods that the government is paying for you to buy and eat.

ELISI — July 7, 2011 at 10:01 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Mark, thanks again for taking the time to answer.
Now I am off to pay attention to my 4 legged princess, she had a hard day today, she went to doggie day spa and is a tad miffed at me. (She hates baths and haircuts)

Have a great day tomorrow Mark, and once again thanks!

ELISI — July 7, 2011 at 10:07 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Sorry, but I'm calling BS on the Jacks scam. The lack of a paper trail excuses nothing.

Jacks' misconduct included his own legislative assistant, and a staffer from the Office of Program Research, and it was witnessed by another democrat rep... Which led to his forced expulsion...covered as a "sour-of-the-moment" resignation.

In short, if you don't know, it's because you don't want to know. Otherwise... You'd have a long list of people you've interviewed, instead of a single interview full of bogus, cover up, softball questions.

The greatest hypocrisy, of course, particularly in the face of the speculation printed in this very paper, was the censorship of even the comments speculating as to the true reasons for Jacks getting booted out.

So, lets all be adults here, admit the cover up scam, and move on. Because this is certainly not the first..nor the last time this newspaper has mislead its readers.

NotBuyinIt — July 7, 2011 at 10:30 p.m. ( | suggest removal

OK, by tomorrow morning I see the BLUE Pencil coming out to redact a comment. If not, that will be a first when it comes to this subject.

pdxtech91 — July 7, 2011 at 11:36 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Good morning, Mark. I see you responded to everyone including me and I thank you. Sorry I didn't get back on last night to respond. It was a busy evening.

Anyhow, my suggestion to the Columbian was out of concern of future possible liabilities thrust upon your company and the quality of the C. I'm just saying that it would be better to hold off speculation in cases like these...a highly sensitive subject when it comes to the policing agencies and a crowd professing their craving for world peace, given the history of drugs and violence teetering on the edges of such a gathering which have tarnished the true meaning of the gathering. My reasoning is simple. It was reported that there was further investigation into the cause of her death, so I would perceive the original statement regarding a possible drug OD as a cause as rumor mongering. All I'm asking is for our NEWS source to be an accurate NEWS source, not a supermarket tabloid. If I wanted to hear unfounded rumors, I'd buy the Midnight Globe. Credibility in accurate reporting is what determines if a news entity is just that or if they are a tabloid.

We expect only a credible news source out of your company, Mark.

goldenoldie — July 8, 2011 at 6:11 a.m. ( | suggest removal

ELISI, thanks for the comment about the Nine Foods the Government is Paying for you to Eat. Why am I not surprised that Corn Syrup is the number one product? No wonder the issues of diabetes is so rampant! Maybe a bit of the Big Pharma industries involved in this one????

goldenoldie — July 8, 2011 at 6:16 a.m. ( | suggest removal

GO-think Monsanto. Subsidies go to those who do not need them. Yes, pharma is involved. First, we eat what makes us sick, second, they step in with their lil drugs. We must be the most heavily drugged country there is.
Thanks, Elisi, that was a good article. Personally, we buy only organic milk. The thought of growth hormones and antibiotics floating in milk disgusts me.
Ever had beef from a cow raised in field, eating hay, no antibiotics? You know, the way they are supposed to feed and live? A huge difference in flavor. We have bought small shares of such beef before (Oregon small farmer) and it was an eye opener.

luvithere — July 8, 2011 at 6:39 a.m. ( | suggest removal

alleycat: The annual fireworks controversy heats up again. Pat Campbell's stance on it is hard-lined.

He has a very formidable challenger in Anne McEnerny-Ogle and I am wondering if this is motivating his higher-profile opinions of late.

I did notice one of Anne's signs in Larry Patella's coffee shop yard on Columbia and W 32nd (this is not a good asociation for Anne from my perspective). It shows that Pat's challenger has the backing of the folks who support Josephine Wentzel.

Maybe Pat is worried about this? Who knows....... I admit I am only speculating.

manthou — July 8, 2011 at 7:45 a.m. ( | suggest removal

alleycat — July 8, 2011 at 6:35 a.m.

Your a libertarian, and a free spirit biker and you agree with regulating fireworks? Or do you only believe in liberty and freedom for yourself?

frobert — July 8, 2011 at 7:47 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Ohio has introduced a bill That makes it illegal to have an abortion after 5 weeks of pregnancy. Before many are aware that they are with child. NO provision or exception for rape, incest or the well being of the mother. Where are the people marching in the streets? This mantra about trimming government on the right is a total joke.

No party brings big government restrictions to our lives like the GOP.

Hopefully the Rupert Murdoch scandal will out much of fox news, the WJS and other media for what and who they are. This idea of "liberal mainstream media" is almost funny.

Anyone on the right that needs reality checks on current events such as debt ceiling negotiations, RyanCare etc feel free to ask me or my campaign manager. When Fox news and other strange but not true right wing media begin to disintegrate with time and truth...know that I will be here for you.

God bless one and all...

nailingit — July 8, 2011 at 7:54 a.m. ( | suggest removal

A little more expansion on the Pat Campbell election fight:

When Anne ran last time for city council, she wooed the No-Tolls people the way Tim Leavitt did. I pulled my support for both of them when I feared it was a manipulation and a promise neither could deliver. Anne is brighter than anyone out there and is a tireless neighborhood advocate. She will take what votes she can, though, like any politician. That means using sound bite simplicity to hook the underinformed.

I admire the way the No Tolls crowd has formed their grass-root campaign, but know that it would not have gone anywhere without the financial generosity of David Madore. So, personally, I get a little concerned about the candidates that No Tolls backs.

manthou — July 8, 2011 at 8:03 a.m. ( | suggest removal

nailingit: The restrictive legislation that is emanating from fringe majorities in other states will make living there an oppresive burden.

You always keep up on the national news and for this, I thank you. :)

manthou — July 8, 2011 at 8:10 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Luvithere, you hit the nail on the head with Monsanto. Thanks for reminding me about them.


Frobert, Alleycat is right. Purchasing fireworks from other nations to celebrate our freedom from oppression or dependence on another nation such as China or Mexico (two of the biggest producers of pyros) is not the answer to providing funding for community events or to support charitable organizations. I'll gladly stand by Alleycat in saying there's ways to support your organizations...and I like his selections given.

goldenoldie — July 8, 2011 at 8:22 a.m. ( | suggest removal

alleycat — July 8, 2011 at 8:19 a.m.

As a Libertarian I put up with your loud pipes and support your right to have them, even if they wake me up once in a while. If you support liberty only for what you want to do, you are anything but a libertarian.

frobert — July 8, 2011 at 8:24 a.m. ( | suggest removal

goldenoldie — July 8, 2011 at 8:22 a.m.

So we should celebrate our freedom from oppression with oppressing our own? What we need is fewer laws not more.

frobert — July 8, 2011 at 8:34 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Mardi Gras. Yes. INCREASE fireworks here, and put Vancouver on the map, as the biggest Mardi Gras style celebration west of the Mississippi, featuring naked clowns painted like flags marching through town... The problem here is we have too much of nothing going on here.

mangoboy — July 8, 2011 at 8:34 a.m. ( | suggest removal

alleycat: I noticed that, too. No Tolls tends to back a warm body simply for the sake of providing a challenger. Think David Madore's flimsy reason for running for Port Commissioner and the CC commissioner candidacy of Alan Svehaug.

goldenoldie: You were the one who introduced me to the Monsanto monopoly issue. I appreciate my increased understanding of it, thanks to you.

manthou — July 8, 2011 at 8:39 a.m. ( | suggest removal

manthou :)) insult those (dems, libs, progressives, your handle for the day) that vote party line, and yet chastise those that don't cowtow to your party line...LOL! Being a libertarian means being a conservative...Ron Paul wants to roll back abortion rights as well as deregulate wall street, banking, allow private business to discriminate based on color or creed...or just because, repeal the civil rights act, and enact every other damn thing to pursue an agenda that the majority of Americans don't want. Have your cake and eat it too. For shame.

People.............. understand party platforms. It's important.

nailingit — July 8, 2011 at 8:51 a.m. ( | suggest removal

frobert @ 8:34 am: I agree with you on fewer laws. However, a citizen cannot keep up with the huge number of bills that are introduced and passed by both parties, or the influence and money that inspires them.

The fireworks regulations are necessary because a small minority ignore the safety of the community. If everyone were as responsible as you in celebrating a pyrotechnic 4th, there would not be a need for rules because everyone would self-monitor.

It is not OK for my intoxicated neighbor to hurl flaming projectiles at my cedar shake roof at 2 am because they feel like it. It puts my family and my property at risk and interferes with the "quiet enjoyment" of my home.

manthou — July 8, 2011 at 8:53 a.m. ( | suggest removal

manthou — July 8, 2011 at 8:53 a.m.

You are making the false assumption that those that ignore current laws will comply with new ones.

frobert — July 8, 2011 at 8:59 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Golden and luvithere,

You're welcome. If I come across anymore such articles I'll be more than glad to share.

How many here remember years ago when the dairy farmers were throwing milk away cause there was too much?

ELISI — July 8, 2011 at 9:55 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Civil liberties, but only for a select few is by definition Fascism. If you can't support liberties for those that annoy you, then you don't support liberties.

frobert — July 8, 2011 at 10:19 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Elisi.. I remember those photo's.. Montana has a milk price control and has been expensive since the 70's.. the pictures of all the milk being dumped just floored us. what a waste..
But ours is the generation of want and waste, our kids are even lousier about it than we ever were. They are more of the got to have it now, right now. Ignore the cost.
That seems to be the thinking of almost all of the locally elected public officals. It is criminal the amout of money Americans are on the hook for, just from the Federal Goverment. Now the local political hacks want to bury this region in billions of debt with the CRC, Vancouver's new waterfront, professional sports, light rail, and now I read in the Columbian that the port of Camas-Washougal have designs on the Hambleton sawmill property. This reeks of leftovers of RiverWalk. Hambleton sawmill property is owned by several members of the Hambleton family, and I know one of them personally. He is always supprized when I read Columbian stories about his property being taken over the Port of Camas-Washougal. Is this RiverWalk-2?

AllenAnderson — July 8, 2011 at 10:22 a.m. ( | suggest removal


I'm very surprised by your fireworks concerns! No need for a guy like you to worry at all! You and your merry brotherhood of badboy biker buddies can go administer your own brand of justice to the fireworks enthusiasts. Then your posse can grab some garden hoses and put out the fire at your compound. Problem solved!

Just one thing...please be sure to check in here afterwards and tell us all about how your biker gang took care of the problem, how you're a different breed, and how, after all, that's what living by your own code is all about. It'd be extra heroic if you made this post entirely bold. The fantastic thing about your tendency to shamelessly make entire posts bold is that it demonstrates that indeed, what you have to say is much, much more important than anything anyone else has to say. Thanks for periodically making that clear.

Random questions:

Did your daughter in Michigan ever cross paths with Kendallin2010's son in Michigan? Perhaps they are starting that company together?

Do you and the bikers discuss local politics while sailing? What thoughts do badboy bikers buddies have on Madore?

Do you post here from the sailboat, or since you are posting here most of the time, are your sailing excursions rare?

Is NE Portland cultured and sophisticated enough for biker gangs? Should one wear their leathers to a nice restaurant in order to enjoy a fine dining experience? Why not relocate the compound to NE Portland?

Do the firemen in NE Portland get to take a break for lunch, or have they found a solution to that "problem" which you have deemed satisfactory?

If one is so opinionated and invested in local issues that ranting here is valuable and worth the time, why no action? If one believes he has all the answers and is disappointed by everything he sees, why no action? Why no action here, why no action in NE Portland, why no action anywhere? Just big, macho talk...and lots of it.

playa — July 8, 2011 at 11:10 a.m. ( | suggest removal

alleycat — July 8, 2011 at 9:49 a.m.

"Please do not highjack the libertarian way by your definition"

frobert — July 8, 2011 at 11:24 a.m. ( | suggest removal

What we have here is a failure to communicate. The average Joe is not given the platform at enough townhall's and media outlets to make a difference. The soapbox has to go beyond bloggers and polished political shows. The Democrats and Republicans need to start having townhalls big time in our state and others. It would help clarify positions on major issues and allow voters to make somewhat of an informed choice. RyanCare, tax loopholes, tax cuts, revenue, the war and so many other issues need to be discussed in public platforms. Our representatives should have one at least once a week.

Let's have a Jeopardy format before the elections just to see if some of these idiots have a basic understanding of our constitution, culture, world events, politics and so on. Some of these people running for high office and many that got elected in 2010 are idiots. We have multi-millionaire Senators and Congressmen/women making monumental decisions about our economy and the middle class. We need to wake up and at least e-mail these people and request more transparency and time from them. Six figure salaries that come out of our wallets and all we get is a freaking flyer once in awhile. DEMOCRATS GET IT THE HELL TOGETHER NOW!!! Picture this country with Tea Party love darlings like the St. Paulie girls, Michelle Bachman, or a "mainstream" candidate like Pawlenty or Romney...along with a majored Republican house and Senate.......

It would be the anarchy conservatives are living and longing for. Widespread disease that would make the infestation of republican filth Ohio, Michigan, Wisconsin...etc. look tame.

nailingit — July 8, 2011 at 12:07 p.m. ( | suggest removal


I have bad news for can't bother me, you can't scare me, and you and the meth dealing, alcohol fueled biker dirtbags you worship don't really mean squat to me. It's just fun to poke and prod, knowing full well that you will magically become increasingly bad@ss and biker fantasy fueled. I haven't laughed so hard in quite some time, so don't worry, bothered is not the word.

Law-abiding motorcycle enthusiasts are fine, but your murderous, lowlife, biker gang heroes belong in jail. The good thing is, many of them end up where they belong. What's really funny is when members of one gang in this "brotherhood" kill members of another gang in this so-called brotherhood.

Again, I am thoroughly entertained by the proclamations that you are so wise, and your imaginary brotherhood is so tough. If you get riled up further, I wonder if you could step it up and start worshiping serial killers. That would make you really crazy and tough!

Ah...gotta love keyboard commandos! LMAO!

I'm gonna have to give VanNortwick a call and ask him if you wore your leathers when you met him. I'm sure between that and a few other well placed calls, we could get down to the truth pretty quick.

playa — July 8, 2011 at 12:44 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Hey Frobert, sorry I didn't get back to you sooner with a response. You say we don't need more laws but at the same we need to pay for more ER visits through higher health as well as homeowner/renter insurance rates and the fact that more are dependent on Medicaid to come to their rescue? If they aren't on Medicaid, they will be requesting "Charity" at the ER since nobody can afford the hospital bill for 2nd and 3rd degree burns. I don't know about your neighborhood, but ours was ringing with the sounds of ambulances and fire trucks every five minutes on the Fourth. Now I can tell you this...our neighborhood isn't filled with independently wealthy folks. In fact, it is considered a lower income neighborhood. You didn't hear about the reports because we live outside the city boundaries.

What I'm saying is this. Banning all personal use of fireworks should be enforced immediately. No sales, no light ups UNLESS the person is a certified pyrotechnics expert and will perform at a designated location. As long as the percussion and the surface to air acceleration of these are getting stronger and stronger, the layperson has less control of the outcome. When you visit the Fort on the 4th, the people performing the fireworks are trained professionals with all the safety measures in place. There's obviously more ways to celebrate the 4th than spending millions on poorly regulated pyros from China and Mexico.

goldenoldie — July 8, 2011 at 1:50 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Hey, badassalleycat,

you callin out people again? chill out dude, go down to the river and make the bridge go up again. That should take some of that anger out of you.

I swear, sometimes you are just too much.

hawkeye — July 8, 2011 at 2 p.m. ( | suggest removal

The price of gold today--about $1,500 an ounce? That is just bizarre. Something is wrong here... Its got to crash at some point. Why is something that is not being consumed going up in value? The hoarding mentality...insecurity...I got mine, you worry about yourself thinking.

mangoboy — July 8, 2011 at 2:07 p.m. ( | suggest removal

GOOD GLORY there's a lot of testosterone flying in the basement today! Let's open up the windows and let some of it out, can we?

goldenoldie — July 8, 2011 at 2:09 p.m. ( | suggest removal

No there is not ENOUGH goldenoldie. If anyone here had any they would be out using it instead of blogging about the same old stuff.
By the way, Our demographics suck also. no one wants to have children anymore because they wouldn't be able to afford their precious middle class lifestyle. That's going against "natural law" and will doom any civilization.

mangoboy — July 8, 2011 at 2:20 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Just a question.What would the job market look like without th Bush tax cuts?? Would we have more or less people employed at this timetoday? I'm thinking we would have more...

What is really needed is to "NOT" be giving tax breaks to companies like GE, Exxon, B of A and the lot.

I also agree it's probably time that if you want to Fire off these pyro's maybe it should be in a designated area. Desigante a couple areas around the county that have eneough space and there you go. That would save thousnads and thousands of dollars each year in Er visits, Fire response, and extra Police with overtime.

Your reponse to Frobert is way off base, need to show some restraint. Your showing and expressing so much anger, concentrate that anger and energy in a more positive direction, maybe public service would be or is your calling.

vanwadreamer — July 8, 2011 at 2:36 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Alleycat, enough with Madore already. He's a good guy,as far as republican nurds go... remember when you were gushing about him? You're like a kid who got stood up by his prom date. Sorry if I am missing something but that's what it sounds like.

mangoboy — July 8, 2011 at 2:43 p.m. ( | suggest removal

goldenoldie — July 8, 2011 at 1:50 p.m.

We cannot claim to be a free people as long as we look to government to protect us from ourselves.

It is funny that you bring up medical when discussing fireworks. The whole reason our medical system is overtaxed is of over regulation by the government. Prior to the Harrison act in 1914 it was considered a basic human right to purchase needed medication, now your insurance company has to pay hundreds to a Physician, or you have to go in debt for thousands to a hospital to get permission to purchase your $10.00 prescription.

It is up to the person to make their decisions, you keep talking about the dumbing down of America, how is giving government the authority to make all of our personal decisions going to make people any brighter?

frobert — July 8, 2011 at 2:52 p.m. ( | suggest removal

hey cat,

think about what you just told me, "To agree to what his impression of me is since he does not know me?"

And then you turn around and say this about him;

"Every now and then I have a meek stating his disgust as alternative lifestyles that his indoctrination does not allow him to accept."

Come on, bub. Different book, same page.

hawkeye — July 8, 2011 at 3:49 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Okay Frobert, let's take this in a different perspective for a second. We are faced with an outrageous financial debt here in the country. The president wants to start his health care reform ASAP yet major cuts need to be implemented. Ask yourself just why there's such high costs in medical care right now. Is it the cost of medicine? The cost of medical care by the physicians? The cost to taxpayers to cover the expenses of government-assisted medical care? The cost to the patients because of the unpaid medical bills by others? The costs charged by the hospitals to the insurance companies? All the above???

Now...ask yourself this. IF a youngster who is playing with a sparkler, supervised by their parents...a family barely getting by in life with no health insurance and no government just ignore the potential medical needs should the child receive cornea damage or third-degree burns due to the sparkler malfunctioning. Would you deny that child's right for emergency medical attention? Of course not. You'd insist on that child receiving the medical care, wouldn't you? Come time to pay for transport, emergency assistance and burn care...the parents are facing a $12,000 hospital bill. Oops, Daddy lost his job and Mommy is a stay at home mom. Looks like Charity might be needed in this case, right??? Well Frobert, guess who pays for it??? Yep! You do, the next time you need medical attention at the hospital ER.

So how could this have been alleviated, Frobert? You could say...the parents should have bought insurance rather than buying a few bucks worth of sparklers, but that wouldn't make sense. After all, it's our freedom to light off fireworks. But wait!!! The parents could have taken C-Tran to the fort, enjoyed all the festivities...or better yet, gone to Ridgefield for an old fashioned 4th...or taken a simple ride to Portland to the Blues Festival. There were so many options, but they just wanted to have the fireworks to play with.

Again, Frobert...ask yourself, just how could they have avoided the child's third-degree burns and all the headaches of hospital bills looming in their midst?

Okay, I know...this sounds like too many what if's but it's happened time and time again. My own family member was scorched in both eyes with permanent scars on his cornea and his face from a legal firework, lit with a punk in a controlled situation. Luckily, we had cash to pay at the time for his medical needs, but how many families don't?

end part 1

goldenoldie — July 8, 2011 at 4:08 p.m. ( | suggest removal

part 2

A family came home to find their house in rubble, caused by fireworks. Was it covered by insurance? Their entire family history, burned in the fire...pets lost, family displaced because of careless fireworks handling. All the memories...gone. It cost the fire department money to come to put out the blaze. The police had to cordon off the street so firefighters could battle the blaze. It turns out the house was insured for fire...but this was not an electrical fire...cause by fireworks. So was it covered? In the meantime, the couple is still displaced, the insurance is taking their sweet time and it's all the family can do to find clothing to wear.

So now Frobert, I've given you two very credible scenarios which could be shared in anytown USA where personal use of fireworks are legal. At what cost do we decide it's time to make a decision. Do we outlaw all personal use of these things...yes, another law to control a continuous problem...or do we refrain from a law and allow the cost of health care to rise and homeowner insurance to rise as well???

Is there really the right answer in this matter? In my opinion...there's a lot more to celebrating the Fourth of July without the use of personal fireworks. The fireworks is strictly for commercialism and like Alleycat had said, there's other ways to make money for charitable organizations. In my opinion, I'd much rather watch the old Watermelon-Eating contests, Dunk Tanks with the Mayor sitting on the throne, a knock-down, drag-out parade and the biggest picnic this side of the Mississippi, followed by our display at the fort.

Personal fireworks puts money in the pockets of foreign entities. We can celebrate our freedom without personal pyros.

goldenoldie — July 8, 2011 at 4:16 p.m. ( | suggest removal

...and lastly, Fro...the issue of health care is obviously controlled by our government who is also controlled by Big Pharma and companies like Monsanto. Yes, Monsanto. They're just as guilty pushing corn byproducts on the consumer, hence...ELISI's link showing Corn Syrup as the number one product the government pays for us to consume. We can control the health care industry in one way and that is for all of us to take a serious look at our health habits, our diets and what we consume. We have all been too lazy in controlling what we eat and what we buy. If it's simple and quick, we need it because we don't have enough hours in the day in this fast-paced life we all live. We are consumed by television and computers and cellular phones...texting, sitting...lethargic. So what does 90% of the American people do??? They go to McDonald's!!! Heck, they can exercise the next day, right???

goldenoldie — July 8, 2011 at 4:21 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Manthou...this link's for you. You might find it quite interesting:

goldenoldie — July 8, 2011 at 4:22 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Mangoboy @ 2:20 pm

lol, you're probably right that there's not enough.

goldenoldie — July 8, 2011 at 4:23 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Hey GO, if you could directly associate fireworks injuries to the high cost of healthcare, I would go along with outlawing them. The fact is, there are so many more reasons that healthcare is so high, I'll bet if you could measure it, fireworks would maybe contribute 1/10 of 1%.

hawkeye — July 8, 2011 at 4:47 p.m. ( | suggest removal

And what you don't seem to understand is that it takes more than just some hardass blowhards to run the country.

What are you going to ride when we run out of gas?

hawkeye — July 8, 2011 at 4:51 p.m. ( | suggest removal

GO: Thanks for the OCA link! I will explore.......

Tonight is the monthly Urban Growers Market in Uptown Village. I am on my way.....

manthou — July 8, 2011 at 5:15 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Anytime, Manthou.

For anybody who is interested about the Urban Growers Market in Uptown Village, here's the Columbian article that describes it:

goldenoldie — July 8, 2011 at 6:10 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Hawkeye, although it's only a miniscule notch in the health care industry's outrageous point was that why should we aggravate the problem by allowing something so dangerous to continue in our neighborhoods and injuring our families. Each and every one of us have to pay for the damages incurred whether it be firefighters screaming to a burning house or paramedics rushing to save a person's hand? Heck, there's already laws telling everyone it's okay to celebrate with fireworks as long as it's between this hour and that and only on these days! Amazing how people consider that an expression of freedom. What's the difference between that and just outlawing them altogether? Less emergency runs saves taxpayer dollars.

goldenoldie — July 8, 2011 at 6:13 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Allen — July 8, 2011 at 4:32 p.m

A source for what? My opinion requires no source.

frobert — July 8, 2011 at 6:15 p.m. ( | suggest removal

"""What are you going to ride when we run out of gas?"""

Here's an answer in the form of a video:

goldenoldie — July 8, 2011 at 6:16 p.m. ( | suggest removal

GO, I like it, but that will be the day when you see the "cat" on a bicycle.

It seems funny, if it wasn't for the motorcycle nobody would would give a second thought to a "big bad boat sailor", now would they?

hawkeye — July 8, 2011 at 6:24 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Nothing better than Queen on a Friday Afternoon!!!

Hey, anybody notice the picture of Lou on his Press Talk column Facebook Avatar??? He's got a mullet!!! Nice one, Lou.

goldenoldie — July 8, 2011 at 6:26 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Hawkeye, I actually know of some bikers...even middle-aged bikers who do utilize a bicycle once in a while. It's when they wear Speedos that I have to draw the line.

goldenoldie — July 8, 2011 at 6:32 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Yea cat, but take away the Harley and you are nothing but opinionated big mouth in leather pants.


hawkeye — July 8, 2011 at 7:31 p.m. ( | suggest removal

goldenoldie — July 8, 2011 at 4:21 p.m.

More children are injured every year with bicycles, furnature or starirs, do we outlaw those too?

More houses are burned down with electricity, furnaces or cooking, do we outlaw those also?

What it really comes down to is some people don't want to listen to it. That group of people feels that they have the right to impose their will on others.

frobert — July 8, 2011 at 7:43 p.m. ( | suggest removal

goldenoldie @ 6:26 pm: Yep. You noticed the mullet. But we were supposed to see that he was sitting next to Mario Cuomo, I think. Problem is: he cropped him out. Maybe no one this far West recognized his celebrity.

I have an old yearbook photo of me interviewing Vance Hartke for the school newspaper. You don't want to know what my hair looks like. Folks wouldn't recognize Hartke, either. I'd crop both of us out today.... :)

manthou — July 8, 2011 at 7:45 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Allen — July 8, 2011 at 6:52 p.m.

I would really like your source on your statement the other day.

"They did manage to pass 256+ bills on women's reproductive rights"

frobert — July 8, 2011 at 7:57 p.m. ( | suggest removal

"""That group of people feels that they have the right to impose their will on others."""

Not my intention, Frobert. I'm just sharing my opinion. It just makes no sense to me for people who just got done buying their food courtesy of DSHS, only to spend boucoup bucks on poorly-regulated fireworks coming from countries we are obviously not on the best of country namely that has our nation on a puppet string in order to celebrate our freedom. Should we be reliving those "The Rocket's Red Glare, the Bombs Bursting in Air?" or should we be celebrating "That our Flag Was Still There" instead? I guess it's all dependent on just what the meaning of celebrating our freedom is all about. For me, I'll just continue my research to locate the US Flag which the fibers were grown, the dyes were manufactured and the company that sewed the flag together was all made right here in our United States of America by employees who have the right to be here. And when I stand by and watch the parade of our heroes who have fought to keep USA free, I will wave that flag.

goldenoldie — July 8, 2011 at 8:19 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Manthou...did you by any chance continue your writing talents past high school? As far as the hair thing...I had what was referred to as the "Shag" of the 70's. Kind of that Farrah Fawcett look only not so wild. Mine was more like Jaclyn Smith's. Of course, it always seemed the photographers knew just when to get that perfect "ugh" shot every single time, lol.

goldenoldie — July 8, 2011 at 8:25 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Educating the public about the dangers of fireworks is almost non existent. When do you think the last time the Columbian did a story on the most common fireworks accidents, and the best procedures to follow to minimize the danger? Never? A community newspaper should do more than report the news and spread political ideology. Educate the people on real life issues.

Remember the Pit bull proposed ban? The Columbian, once again, fails to follow through and educate the public on pet safety.

mangoboy — July 8, 2011 at 8:36 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Madore is not out in the spotlight lately. Why? Just possibly he is reformulating his entire orientation, everything he thought he knew courtesy of his indoctrination into the conservative christian ideology just might not be totally accurate. Maybe he has finally figured out that he has been fed and has naively taken to heart a system that is full of contradictions and cannot be made sense of. I don't hold that against him, he has been busy in his laboratory all these years, insulated from reality. He is on a learning curve, but is an earnest seeker of the truth and basically a good person. A good dose of Alleycat,Mangoboy, etc scent marker might actually be helping him to break out of his shell. Time will tell...

mangoboy — July 8, 2011 at 8:51 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Mango, I understand what you're saying but's not just the Columbian. For example, did you hear about the 11 month old killed by the grandparents' dog. The story started out on the TV news stations, listing the dog as a killer pit bull. Later, they said it was a bull dog...a 135 lb American bull dog like the one on the old time TV show, Our Gang.

Now I won't even get into the tragic death of the young lady at the Rainbow Gathering and how the story was twisted around without all the evidence gathered and presented to the media. Seems it's always somebody else's fault when the mistakes are made. Being responsible for your own statement, your own actions...seems not to be the concept any more. It's always someone else's fault.

goldenoldie — July 8, 2011 at 8:51 p.m. ( | suggest removal

NO its not important who is at fault and pointing out who is responsible, who is guilty, etc. People make mistakes. Its media's role, as the communities main conduit of information to educate and inform with unbiased, factual research and interviews with individuals with expertise and knowledge. Finding who to blame, pointing fingers, its all counterproductive. Better to learn something than find a culprit. Leave that to the tabloids...

mangoboy — July 8, 2011 at 9 p.m. ( | suggest removal

To your question, mangoboy, we ran this information on June 20 on Page C1 of The Columbian, and again on June 28 in our North County News edition.

**Safety tips**
“Before people even light them, they should be prepared,” Scarpelli said. “Stay at least 25 feet from combustible materials, and have a hose ready to go.”

Other safety tips include:
Be legal: Officials recommend buying only from a licensed fireworks stand with items clearly labeled with the name of the item, manufacturer and instructions for proper use. Firecrackers, bottle rockets and items described as M-80s, M-100s and blockbusters are illegal and can cause serious injury or death, officials say. Tribal fireworks might not be legal for use off tribal land.

Supervise children: Only adults should light fireworks. Do not allow young children to play with fireworks. Older children should only use them under adult supervision. Children must be 16 years (with ID) to buy fireworks.

Follow directions: Even sparklers, which burn at more than 1,000 degrees Fahrenheit, can be dangerous if used improperly, Scarpelli said. Light only one firework at a time, and don’t try to re-light a dud. Protect your eyes and never have any portion of your body directly over fireworks.

Keep pets safe: Keep animals indoors with curtains and windows closed. Be sure your pet’s collar is secure, with a current license tag. The license will help get a runaway pet home and allow emergency medical care, if needed. If your pet goes missing, check with the Humane Society for Southwest Washington at 360-693-4746.

Be a good neighbor: Pick up spent fireworks and dispose of them properly once they have cooled; soaking them overnight in a bucket of water before putting them in the trash is a good idea.

Leave it to the experts: Visit a local celebration. Independence Day at Fort Vancouver presented by Bank of America will feature historic events and a fireworks display. Hours are noon to 10:30 p.m. Tickets are $5 online at; $7 at the gate for those 13 and older.

Mark Bowder (Columbian Staff) — July 8, 2011 at 9:09 p.m. ( | suggest removal

> Seems it's always somebody else's fault when the mistakes are made. Being responsible for your own statement, your own actions... seems not to be the concept any more. It's always someone else's fault. -goldenoldie

Well, Goldie, I have say that Skamania County Sheriff Dave Brown did take responsibility for his initial statement about the death at the Rainbow Family Gathering. You could find fault with his original comments - but he did not attempt to shift the blame when that information proved faulty.

"I could have probably done a better job getting the story straight with our investigating officers,” Brown said. He also admitted that he probably "stepped over the line" in passing on unsubstantiated speculation in regards to the death.

If that's not taking responsibility, what is?

Mark Bowder (Columbian Staff) — July 8, 2011 at 9:29 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Mark, thats a good start. What about some undercover, investigative journalism, like see how many young people are being asked for ID at shops, find out which shops emphasize safety, what are the regulations for fireworks and which brands are less apt to take off at ridiculous trajectories. Has the City ever made an effort to distribute a fireworks safety sheet or brochure through all the neighborhood associations? You can't just publish the same fireworks safety tips every year and expect a change in behavior. We have the ban fireworks sentiment, the keep fireworks sentiment, but very little about stricter regulation and more public education.

mangoboy — July 8, 2011 at 9:36 p.m. ( | suggest removal

I'll pass the suggestion on, mangoboy. Thanks for the ideas.

Mark Bowder (Columbian Staff) — July 8, 2011 at 9:54 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Lou B: Your Press Talk column today is the best I have ever read (for what that's worth to you). You sum up the key to happiness and success in the final two sentences: "Life is beautiful. Just go with it."

I had been scratching my head over the gangs of protesters, shouting angrily and gesturing threateningly at the cameras over the Casey Anthony verdict. How many times in life are we disappointed and angry over something out of our control? When we rail against it and fight it, we do nothing but chip away at our own peace and reduce our lifespan.

Our time could be spent in more productive ways.

Life is, indeed, beautiful. Here are some ideas for my good basement forum friends to learn how to go with it:

I need to say again, well-done, Lou. It takes us a lifetime, sometimes, to figure it out. Glad you shared your ephiphany with us! :)

manthou — July 9, 2011 at 7:03 a.m. ( | suggest removal

alleycat: Take a moment to read the link I shared at 7:03 am. Please. :)

manthou — July 9, 2011 at 7:11 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Mark, I understand the issue behind the Sheriff of Skamania County and how he retracted his first comment...but what investigative work was done by the writers of the C before rushing to put to press the comment? Was there evidence that she had been caught in possession when the USFS stopped the bus? Was it in her character to utilize narcotics to begin with? Did she have a history? What did the Columbian do to protect themselves from liabilities by producing the article with the false statement? Your arms weren't twisted, Mark. You weren't ordered to put in that original comment. The final results by the examiner were not I ask you this ...

Why did you have the need to put such a comment in the article in the first place? Is it because of what the Rainbow Gathering has attracted to their community where no laws are enforced by those who attend or is it some other reasoning you care not to divulge? You should have left the speculation to the people in the community. But again...that's my opinion and I'm sticking to it.

goldenoldie — July 9, 2011 at 7:43 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Good morning, Manthou. I went ahead and checked out your link which you referred to Alleycat and I have a bit of an issue with number 11. Yes, we must accept change and imperfections in life, but when the change or imperfection is detrimental to quality of we just accept it and go with the flow or do we work in a proactive manner to improve it?

Just my little bit of food for thought.

I like the overall message of the 12 practical steps. Thanks for sharing with everyone.

goldenoldie — July 9, 2011 at 7:49 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Allen — July 9, 2011 at 7:02 a.m

When I went to the official website it said one had passed the House and none the Senate. That makes my question concerning your source for your claim valid.

frobert — July 9, 2011 at 7:55 a.m. ( | suggest removal


Link to a book review you might be interested in. It's by Michelle Goldberg, title "Kingdom Coming: The Rise of Christian Nationalism."

roger — July 9, 2011 at 8 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Good morning, goldie:

I appreciate your feedback, as always. I just figure we all are doing the best we can with the information and skills we have at the time. Hopefully, we grow through life's lessons.

I do think we have the ability to positively or negatively impact our lives and events/others through our actions, intentions and thoughts. We can choose to be loving. We can choose to be hateful. We can choose to be helpful. We can choose to be critical. You get it. Every choice we make will impact those around us and initiate a chain reaction of consequences.

I think the message is: fighting "against" something is less productive and effective than fighting "for" something. There is a difference.

Just my interpretation

manthou — July 9, 2011 at 8:28 a.m. ( | suggest removal

alleycat-It's being reported by Puffington Host that republicans have introduced legislation to redact and re-write targeted passages in the holy bible. The only person GOP leadership feels is qualified to actually do this remains unnamed. Rumor has it She is a high ranking BOA spokeswoman who resides under the desk of big oil draining the Koch's of those who worship at the alter of Mammon.

Peace on earth and goodwill to all. Today's conservatives involve themselves in politics and the ways of this world like never before. They scream and shout to reduce government spending off the backs of the poor while sucking up government benefits to include Social Security, Medicaid and Medicare. Their leaders and hero's fly corporate Jets and think nothing of flying a helicopter to their kids ball game at constituents expense. Today's conservative has ZERO respect for due process. Today's conservatives are the Newts and the Vitters who profess Jesus loves you!!! while they are are screwing the American People, the taxpayer, your wives and husbands, and most of all that big ol' thing we refer to as the constitution......

The republicans play Screw the Pooch better than anyone. Those whose mantra is "both sides are corrupt, I'm "independent" mean well...but need to take a serious look at the type and degree of pervasiveness the GOP brings to the table.

We can change this people. Hold our President's feet to the fire when it comes to our foreign policy and economic future. We need investment and a change in our tax code. We need change...tired of the hope.

nailingit — July 9, 2011 at 8:59 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Allen — July 9, 2011 at 9:15 a.m.

You should use quotation marks and citations when quoting from your liberal blogs.

frobert — July 9, 2011 at 9:39 a.m. ( | suggest removal

manthou @ 7:03

Thanks for the link! Numbers 7 & 12 have been dominate in my life, all the others God help me! I've always said life is a lot of things, but it's never boring. In my life experience the ebb and flow of conscience serenity is meted out in measures of inner personal triumphs as well as failings. All to often the ability to recognize the difference between the two becomes blurred, as I find in failing, triumphs are shaded differently, and in triumphs failings are brought to light...not to wax too philosophical and no intent to pollute DOW and turn it into POW! Take care and thank you manthou for well...being you! You always bring spiritual sanity and goodwill to this forum.

nailingit — July 9, 2011 at 9:45 a.m. ( | suggest removal


I don't know allot about this bill, but I do know a little about procedure. Blocking a call to "unanimous consent" is NOT the same as blocking the bill. It merely requires a more in-depth and formal approach. Any member can call for immediate vote.It's not like the Republicans to turn down veteran benefits.Is it a stealth bill - ie... are there Democratic rider provisions concealed under a "veterans' bill"? WHY are the Republicans balking? Is it a blanket welfare bill? Congress is contorted. I wouldn't jump to conclusions without more info... ... from the other side.

This bill didn't make it out of comittee in 2009.. Must have some other riders attached to it as not even all the dem's were in favor of it...

vanwadreamer — July 9, 2011 at 10:18 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Allen — July 9, 2011 at 10:12 a.m.

The only two sources I can find that what you quoted word for word are Ms.Magazine and Is that what you consider national news sites? You are the one that is copying opinions from liberal blogs pasting them as your own, I believe that makes you the troll.

frobert — July 9, 2011 at 10:28 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Manthou, I truly appreciate your feedback on my reaction to number 11 on the link. With your explanation...your interpretation, number 11 makes more sense to me, especially when I take into account what you have shared. Thank you, my friend.

goldenoldie — July 9, 2011 at 10:29 a.m. ( | suggest removal

> Mark, I understand the issue behind
> the Sheriff of Skamania County and how
> he retracted his first comment... but
> what investigative work was done by
> the writers of the C before rushing to
> put to press the comment? Was there
> evidence that she had been caught in
> possession when the USFS stopped the
> bus? Was it in her character to
> utilize narcotics to begin with? Did
> she have a history? What did the
> Columbian do to protect themselves
> from liabilities by producing the
> article with the false statement? Your
> arms weren't twisted, Mark. You
> weren't ordered to put in that
> original comment. The final results by
> the examiner were not I
> ask you this ... Why did you have the
> need to put such a comment in the
> article in the first place? Is it
> because of what the Rainbow Gathering
> has attracted to their community where
> no laws are enforced by those who
> attend or is it some other reasoning
> you care not to divulge? You should
> have left the speculation to the
> people in the community. But
> again...that's my opinion and I'm
> sticking to it. -Goldenoldie

You're entitled to your opinion, of course, Goldie. But I think your expectations aren't realistic. It is common for news organizations of all sizes to report on the official statements of law enforcement officials. Look at breaking news coverage in any publication or broadcast you can find, and you will see that is the case. No news organization could, say, go out and independently investigate the nature of every single incident reported by the police, let alone delve into the character or history of any individual involved. We must rely on trusted sources of information.

To elaborate: Journalists cannot say with 100% certainty what happened in the vast majority of breaking news stories because we were not there. But what we CAN say with certainty is what the trusted source has told us, and we attribute the information to the source (as in, "Sheriff says XYZ happened" not simply "XYZ happened").

So was the sheriff in this case a trusted source? Yes. We've been dealing with him for years and he's proven to be accurate and forthcoming. We had no reason to believe he might have been winging it without full information. So yes, we reported what he told us. In perfect 20/20 hindsight, do we wish we hadn't? Of course. (But then we'd be hearing endlessly about how we were "covering up" something…)

And "other reasoning you care not to divulge?" Really? Nope. Nothing underhanded or mysterious. It's just the sausage-making that is daily journalism. Usually, it works. When it doesn't… well… you see the results.

I understand this probably won't change your opinion, but I hope it helps you get a better sense of the decisions we have to make every single day.

Mark Bowder (Columbian Staff) — July 9, 2011 at 10:44 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Mark, thanks for getting back to me and explaining further. I will take into consideration what you have shared although you are probably correct in your assumption that it most likely won't change my opinion. I guess expecting sausage to turn out perfect every time IS asking too much. That's why I take what I read or what I hear as untruths till the facts gathered are presented...and even those facts can be tarnished with untruths lately. I'm not speaking just of the issues behind the recent events at the Rainbow Gathering, either. Anyhow...I must at least give you and the rest of the folks at the Columbian credit where credit is due for definitely sparking interest by the readers and providing writes which definitely get the community talking. For that, I am quite appreciative. I guess I'd just like to see the quality of the Columbian reach it's highest make it stand out with merit against the competition.

goldenoldie — July 9, 2011 at 10:53 a.m. ( | suggest removal


I don't think anyone would have questioned this, I know I wouldn't have, if the person would have died cause of a clearly visible wound. It would have been clear to all the cause of death.
Since Kellar died and there was no evidence of a knife or bullet wound, clubbing, there was no obvious visible reason.
The sheriff stepped over his boundaries as a sheriff by making the the assumption that it was drugs. As I said before the only one qualified to have made that statement is the medical examiner. Is the sheriff a licensed medical examiner also? If not, his response to the media should have been, "cause of death under investigation" or "unknown". He could at least of said, will have to wait for the toxicology tests to come back.

ELISI — July 9, 2011 at 11:11 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Agreed, Elisi. And I think the sheriff wishes he could take back what he said, too.

Mark Bowder (Columbian Staff) — July 9, 2011 at 11:31 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Mark, I think we all have things we've said in the past that we wished we could take back as well.

goldenoldie — July 9, 2011 at 11:36 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Agree Mark, maybe this will make him think twice next time before speaking.

ELISI — July 9, 2011 at 11:39 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Allen — July 9, 2011 at 12:03 p.m

No, what I am saying is your words came word for word from a liberal blog. Or are you accusing them of plagiarizing you?

frobert — July 9, 2011 at 12:13 p.m. ( | suggest removal


It seems these days it so hard to get anything any good through congress as both sides do not want something that will actually make a difference make it through to the voting opportunity because if they can't take credit for it than they want to make sure it doesn't get to the voting process unless they add these riders to the package and then it becomes more than just a bill for a specified purpose. I'm so frustrated over our elected officials as are most other people.

On a bright side what a great day outside.. Marinating some chicken right now for the GRILL later... Some grilled asparagas is also on the menu, along a variety of other veggies for the grill. have a great day as now I hear the special sound of my mower saying where are you???


How much and how often do you water your Tomatoes.....I have read conflicting stories , one says to water like every 3 weeks and others say a deep watering once a week..

vanwadreamer — July 9, 2011 at 1:40 p.m. ( | suggest removal

*How much and how often do you water your Tomatoes.....I have read conflicting stories , one says to water like every 3 weeks and others say a deep watering once a week..
vanwadreamer — July 9, 2011 at 1:40 p.m*

vanwadreamer, if you wait to water your plants to every three weeks, you will not have any plants unless it has rained several times during that time.

I water mine during sunny dry days at every 2 to 3 days. Once you have fruit on the vine you can scale back to once a week.
Be sure to count the days that it rains as a water day.

If your plants are in pots for container gardening, one must water every other day in the heat. Containers tend to dry out quickly.

Be sure to water at dirt level, over head watering tends to rot the blossoms and cause disease.

ELISI — July 9, 2011 at 2:33 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Vanwadreamer, good advice by ELISI. To add to what ELISI says regarding potted all depends on the potting soil you used in your planter as well. Some soils are heavy and retain water constantly, others seem to dry up within hours. The best way to check is to take your index finger and dig it into the soil up to the knuckle. If it feels dry, it needs watering. You never want your tomatoes to have too wet of "feet" as it will cause rot. There are two types of tomatoes. Determinate and Indeterminate. The Determinate tomatoes stop growing in height when the flowers form on the ends of the stem and the fruit ripens within the same frame of time, give or take a few weeks. These are generally more compact and the ones I prefer in pots. I tend to start my determinate tomatoes about 3-4 weeks apart if I want to grow them all in pots. That way, the season for the potted tom's is extended.

The Indeterminates are the ones which keep growing and can reach as high as your gutters on your house. They usually do not die back till the first autumn frost. These are best grown in the ground. Also, there are tomatoes such as Oregon Spring and Siletz which are shorter season tomatoes. Once the tomatoes have begun to turn color, you can reduce your watering. Just don't forget to give them a bit of systemic tomato fertilizer mixed into the top inch of soil at least once in the season, mid season. I never trust the information on the potting soil bags that state the fertilizer is good for three months.

Oh...and don't forget to buy stakes for the taller tomatoes. You'll want to use twine to tie them to the stakes as they grow. BTW, the cages aren't that effective for the taller growing tomatoes. I've also heard that there's a red plastic you can put on the ground around the base of your tomatoes which encourages the tomatoes to ripen sooner. I've never used it but maybe someone in Columbianland has.

Hopefully I've given you some ideas.

Hopefully I've given you some ideas that might help.

goldenoldie — July 9, 2011 at 3:44 p.m. ( | suggest removal

U.S. decrees that marijuana has no accepted medical use. The FDA says its potential for abuse makes it the same as heroin.

These are the same people who apparently have no problems approving drugs like dilaudid and oxycontin, which are highly addictive and abused to the point of being a worldwide epidemic.

There are plenty of cancer patients who swear by marijuana - they say it helps them overcome the nausea caused by chemotherapy and allows them to eat. Whatever works in my book. I can also look back on my younger days when many of my friends were returning from Vietnam. More than a few had "head problems" from their experiences. Smoking pot made a whole lot more sense than taking what the medical profession was pushing back then - drugs like Thorazine and other crap that made zombies out of people. At least they could get on with their lives.

And to close my rant, alcohol has probably caused more problems than any other drug, to include tobacco. That it is still legal supports the view that the real reason marijuana is illegal is because it's a weed and can grow almost anywhere - Big Business can't control production and corner the market.

roger — July 9, 2011 at 5:25 p.m. ( | suggest removal

roger — July 9, 2011 at 5:25 p.m

Two republican candidates Ron Paul and Gary Johnson propose repealing the prohibition on marijuana. It is utterly ridiculous the billions spent every year to incarcerate harmless pot users. I am personally not a user of marijuana, however it is not only wasteful but downright anti liberty to impose this prohibition on those that choose to use it.

frobert — July 9, 2011 at 5:39 p.m. ( | suggest removal


If you think my opinions are anything like bob's maybe sporty is correct about your consumption problem.

I stand by my comment concerning where you copied your post from, unless you can provide a link to the exact wording and I am sure if you could you already would have.

Your blatant lies have been many but the most recent was
"They did manage to pass 256+ bills on women's reproductive rights"

I would like to point out that you have asked for reliable links for my information several times and I always provide it.

I also have to point out that I am against democrats and republicans so there is no kool aid available for that.

frobert — July 9, 2011 at 10:46 p.m. ( | suggest removal

RAndomThoughtS...>>>?<<<...>?...I'm thinking the word titular is appropriate when describing Sarah Palin as a KingMaker with a war chest...In prison, why are hardened criminals allowed to mass themselves up lifting weights? They should be on a steady diet of soft foods to include jello and pudding with mandatory listening to Arlo Guthrie music...discriminatory exploitation defies explanation...if today turns into tomorrow, then what happened yesterday is currently in the past...if we are being watched, monitored and populated by life forms that exist deep within the earth as well as extra-terrestrial beings, we should speak of co-habitation instead of division and denial...I thinking it's getting late.

nailingit — July 9, 2011 at 11:21 p.m. ( | suggest removal

from The Columbian----

"The idea is to make people think twice before they schedule that test or exam that probably doesn’t add a whole lot of information to what a doctor already knows."

So the Republican's idea of cutting the federal deficit thru cuts in Medicare and/or Medicaid is for patients to decide if tests, which I assume a doctor requests, are necessary? What the hell? If patients are able to determine what tests and procedures that are REALLY necessary, it seems the patients would have to know more than the doctor, which seems really absurd. Why can't these folks just call a spade a spade and say we're going to stick you because you're the easiest to stick it to and we don't get big $$$ from you individually to get re-elected. Is this the mandate-per the Republicans-these clowns think they got in 2010? I hope they get a new one in 2012. I know I'll send a vote that way. As Medicare is less than 8% of the budget, while defense is four or five times that amount, I'm appalled. But this is America, and you get what you pay for. I guess us soon to be retirees need to buy politicians on par with defense contractors, big oil, Wall Street, get the idea. If it weren't for my kids, I'd move to Canada, Australia, maybe New Zealand, this place is really starting to suck.

mrd — July 9, 2011 at 11:33 p.m. ( | suggest removal

alleycat: I posted the very same link this morning on the CRC Basement Forum thread.

It is an eye-opening article by Jeff Manning. Consultant fees are astronomical on the CRC project, for sure. At least they are cutting back, once the public flashlight turned on.

manthou — July 10, 2011 at 7:25 a.m. ( | suggest removal

The Oregonian article is a good example of investigative journalism - something sorely lacking with The Columbian. Whatever happened to the Hovde lady that was with them a few years back? At least she tried. The current staff are nothing more than shills for Vancouver City Council, Identity Clark County, and whatever else the Campbell family supports.

roger — July 10, 2011 at 7:45 a.m. ( | suggest removal

vanwadreamer — July 9, 2011 at 1:40 p.m.

hawkeye — July 6, 2011 at 3:37 p.m.

ELISI — July 9, 2011 at 2:33 p.m.

goldenoldie — July 9, 2011 at 3:44 p.m.

A good resource is the Master Gardener program through our extension service. And you've already paid for it.

"The Heritage Farm/WSU Extension Plant Clinic office is located at 1919 NE 78th Street, Vancouver, Washington. The clinic is open to walk-in clients Tuesday and Wednesday 8:30 AM to 2:00 PM and Thursday from 11:30 AM to 5:00 PM. Calls and e-mails placed before or after the open hours of the clinic are handled promptly the following day. The Plant Clinic phone number is (360) 397-6060 ext. 5711. Clients can also send questions and photos of plant problems to the answer clinic via e-mail to:"

Also, Steve Solomon _growing vegetables West of the Cascades_ discusses techniques for gardening in our 'drought' summers.

Trellis plan @ Works for peas and beans also ( can use netting instead of twine, or more frequent twine for those).

mr_basil_seal — July 10, 2011 at 8:41 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Mr Basil-ELSI-GO

Thanks for the advice, I went potted this year but do have a few "VOLUNTEER" ones as well LOL.. Yeah the potting soil sand mix was getting very dry in the pots. Leaves are quick to rebound after watering... Like the comment ELSI don't water through the leaves, just at the base of the plants..Isn't it just a great morning.. Why can't we have these all year round, our GDP would most likely double, at least in my house.. I planted my beans in backyard against fence this year as I used to plant the tomatoes there.. Full sun, and plenty of fence to sprawl on.. Thanks again to you all... Wathing USA kick some A$$$$$$$ in soccer on patio....with Java in one hand..

vanwadreamer — July 10, 2011 at 9:02 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Recognizing same sex marriage at the federal level would be "an act of social engineering profoundly hostile to liberty"... says presidential candidate Ron Paul.

nailingit — July 10, 2011 at 9:18 a.m. ( | suggest removal

roger: Ms. Hovde is back at The Oregonian:


I, too, wish we had more investigative stories from the C. The last time they reported on something that really caught my eye (Rob McKenna's skewed and sloppy stats), it was a regurgitation of an AP article. They then took it down from the web front page rotation very, very quickly.

I get the sense that they are bowing to political pressure, rather than exposing it. Is this the cost of staying in the print journalism business nowadays, though? So sad. Hope not.

manthou — July 10, 2011 at 9:26 a.m. ( | suggest removal


Interesting claim (by Ron Paul) for someone who professes to be a libertarian on social issues. It should be interesting to hear this explained. Is he pandering to the Republican base religious right? Or is he saying the federal government has no business getting involved with marriage at all?

It would be a lot simpler to declare marriage to be a religious concept that stays there, dictated by the religion itself. The governments should use some variation of "civil union" with all legal rights and benefits derived from there.

roger — July 10, 2011 at 9:36 a.m. ( | suggest removal


Another hint, rotate what you plant and where each year..and be sure to put nutrients back in the soil after your harvest to ensure a good harvest next year.

I use mulch, compost, bone meal and of course fertilizer.

ELISI — July 10, 2011 at 9:41 a.m. ( | suggest removal

roger: I want to add that, our infrequent but oh-so articulate basement forum friend, george_vancouver, asked some very good conflict-of-interest questions regarding the pending land deal between the Campbell family and the city.

Does this important deal impact objective reporting on city issues? How do they guard against that? I trust that they are having these discussions at their editorial board meetings.

No one wanted to run with this discussion much. I think it bears watching.

A reference I made to this article and Mr. Vancouver's concerns seem to have disappeared from the Downtown Development Forum history. :(

manthou — July 10, 2011 at 9:41 a.m. ( | suggest removal

CORRECTION: The reference to george_vancouver's conflict-of-interest question is still up, unscathed.

My bad. My apologies. I am not trying to stir up a bogus fight.

Hope we can get some insights on how the C is protecting objectivity when the owner really, really wants to cut a luctrative deal.

manthou — July 10, 2011 at 9:47 a.m. ( | suggest removal

roger...It's my belief that the libertarian stance mandates elimination of the Fed except for a well armed militia. They believe ALL decisions should be left to each individual state. The north should be the north and the south should be the to speak. [Any self professed libertarian please feel free to correct me] This includes repealing the civil rights act, Roe V Wade, etc. They believe the Federal government should enact ZERO banking regulations or oversight with ALL businesses, to include wall street, big oil, the banks...and to include abolishing the USDA leaving quality control and pricing to individual states....just for starters.

nailingit — July 10, 2011 at 10:04 a.m. ( | suggest removal

nailingit — July 10, 2011 at 10:04 a.m.

The Constitution of the United States clearly outlines Federal authority. The tenth amendment clearly puts all other authority to the states or to the people. As a Libertarian I believe that this must be followed to the letter. I of course can only speak for myself. Redundnant State and Federal laws are not authorized under the tenth amendment, therefore many Federal agencies (or their State counterparts) are unconstitutional, not to mention inefficient.

frobert — July 10, 2011 at 10:19 a.m. ( | suggest removal

roger — July 10, 2011 at 9:36 a.m

Ron Paul has stated that the Federal Government should not legislate marriage at all. I differ with his opinion that the state has that authority. Marriage is between one or more people and their faith.

frobert — July 10, 2011 at 10:28 a.m. ( | suggest removal

As near as I can tell there are several forms of libertarianism, with the main agreement being that the government should stay out of private lives. Noam Chomsky has something he calls libertarian socialism, with the government controlling business, especially where natural resources are involved. I've read part of a book by some "authority" on libertarianism named Boaz, who said the government should stay out of business and allow the free market to regulate itself. And I've heard of an anarchist branch, which would eliminate government entirely. Whatever. The older I get, the more I believe the Yippies had it right - politics is all a game. The so-called liberals, conservatives and whatever else all ultimately fall victim to the allure of the Dollar.

roger — July 10, 2011 at 10:36 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Question for all on a nice Sunday.
Who is Pauline Warren and why does the C always print her LTTE no matter how silly and delusional?

luvithere — July 10, 2011 at 11:02 a.m. ( | suggest removal

luvithere — July 10, 2011 at 11:02 a.m.
Pauline Warren wrote
"Are we are still one nation under God, as our Founding Fathers believed?"

She doesn't realize that the term "one Nation under god" didn't happen until the 1950's. The Founders where very careful to limit any religious references. Why do so many people claim to be "conservative" and then feel they can ignore the most basic teachings of our founders?

frobert — July 10, 2011 at 11:22 a.m. ( | suggest removal

frobert, yes, I do agree with you. I thought her letter to be way off reality.
I just wondered why her letters always seem to get published. She someone special?

luvithere — July 10, 2011 at 11:25 a.m. ( | suggest removal

frobert — July 10, 2011 at 10:19 a.m.

Need to remember that 'other' branch, Constitution as interpreted by courts.

Which, over the centuries, has pretty consistently ruled that states really can't claim the level of rights the Libertarians think states (or even individuals) hold. It is that 'society' thing.

And, yes, there are SC rulings that Libertarians consistently point to to support their case. A few, older, scattered, and oft over ruled later.

mr_basil_seal — July 10, 2011 at 11:26 a.m. ( | suggest removal

mr_basil_seal — July 10, 2011 at 11:26 a.m.

Yes over the years the Supreme Court has eroded the rights that where outlined in the Constitution, that does not change my opinion as to the intended existence of those rights.

frobert — July 10, 2011 at 11:39 a.m. ( | suggest removal

I try not to use the word "marijuana." That's the word Anslinger used to hoodwink Congress back in '37.

Apparently, the DEA doesn't have the ability to access Pubmed. If they did they could simply enter "cannabis" and any number of maladies to read the abstracts from numerous studies that indicate the efficacy of cannabis administration by various means (cannabis and/or cannabinoids).

Cannabis is classified as a scedule I drug for one reason, and one reason only; money. This country is owned by corporations. The legalization, even a reclassification, would put one heck of a dent in the bottom line of many companies. Not to mention the business of prisons. As of this writing approximately 453,000 people have been arrested for cannabis violations (in the U.S.).

I would find statements calling cannabis a dangerous drug rediculous if the polcy wasn't so devastating. How many people have died this year from over the counter drug overdoses? I don't care to look it up right now. I do know how many have died from a cannabis overdose. Zip. Nada. Zero.

If I had the resources I do believe I'd attempt to bring charges of "crimes against humanity" aimed at both the U.N. and the U.S..

Also (before I go enjoy this beautiful day), you would think someone in these regulatory agencies would comprehend how these types of policies undermine what bit of credibility they might still retain. It's a farce.

I'm off to check my plants.

Let's end the madness;

Drift — July 10, 2011 at 11:40 a.m. ( | suggest removal

fro..yet you claim to be a conservative as well. Please define today's conservatism in your view.

In your view...should a bank have the right to reject applicants for home and car loans based on an applicant's color or creed?'s today's nuanced American tea party/libertarianism that is in play today. These so called libertarians are stripping the rights of Americans to collectively bargain, receive proper medical care based on income, gender and condition. Enacting policy to channel taxpayer dollars to off shore businesses, wall street corporate wallets. Encouraging the destruction of medicare to insure astronomical corporate gains in the future. Etc. etc.

All fall victim. It's what and how deep the well is. There are distinct party differences. It's what value system one chooses to adhere to. To throw them all in a basket and roll them out, no doubt many negative similarities exist. It's about the common good, not the uncommon privileged few that take taxpayers welfare checks in order to profit at our expense instead of creating jobs as a priority...they create profit. Period. And the ship of corporate greed and savings which has no international boundaries, has sailed. InMyHumbleOpinion.

nailingit — July 10, 2011 at 11:42 a.m. ( | suggest removal

There is too much to list happening in this Land of the Free that calls into question the validity of the statement.

We are not "one nation under God" and the line should be removed. Sorry, but at least then we could get points for being honest and acknowledging reality.

mangoboy — July 10, 2011 at 11:45 a.m. ( | suggest removal

frobert- Should Americans still have the right to own slaves? Many of our founding fathers were extremely rich slave owners that had so much wealth it was difficult for them to manage. How many slaves did G.W. have? Over 300? Should a state have the right except slavery as a viable solution for a myriad of scenarios?

nailingit — July 10, 2011 at 11:56 a.m. ( | suggest removal

supposed to read..should a state have the right to except slavery as a viable solution....

nailingit — July 10, 2011 at 12:02 p.m. ( | suggest removal

fro..what rights have "eroded" in your view? Should the federal government give grants for medical research for conditions such as Autism...or just let the states deal with it. In your world...should the fed not be involved with setting age limits for marriage, employment, and operating motor vehicles? Should each state be able to outlaw abortion with caucasians and encourage and provide for abortions for those of color?

Is everyone aware that the former Grand Wizard of the KKK, David Duke, has announced his candidacy for POTUS running on the Republican ticket as he has in past elections? Are republican leaders denouncing him? Talk about today fro...not the blah blah blah of ancient American history when you place all blame on dems...long before you could vote.

And by the way you participate in America's political process and vote? Again let me ask of you....who have you supported at the polls in the last twenty years.

nailingit — July 10, 2011 at 12:20 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Actually, frobert appears to espouse what has become accepted as libertarianism in this country. David Boaz, of the CATO Institute, wrote a book called "Libertarianism: A Primer." (BORING!!! I've been trying to finish it for several years.) A review that I stole says -
"Boaz argues that free markets enhance economic productivity and employment, and that government programs perpetuate bureaucratic and special interests. Among his proposals: end corporate and farm welfare; chop defense spending in half; abolish numerous federal agencies; privatize government programs. He proposes privatizing the Social Security system and offering tax-free Medical Savings Accounts in which unused money allocated for health insurance could be redirected to savings accounts."

Sure sounds like the Tea Party to me. The problem with this train of thought, to me, is that it pretty much requires the people of a society to reach agreement/accord on how to play nice and care about each other. But time and again this approach as failed - greed (or whatever) seems to be a part of what makes us human, and we have no problem stepping on others to get what we want for ourselves. Exceptions like Andrew Carnegie was with U.S. Steel are few and far between.

roger — July 10, 2011 at 12:24 p.m. ( | suggest removal

nailingit — July 10, 2011 at 11:42 a.m.

"Please define today's conservatism in your view."

There are numerous fundamental flaws with both modern "conservatives" and "liberals"

I am unwilling as this time to go into detailed analysis of those flaws.

The main flaw of modern "conservatism" is refusal to omit religon from the equation. They love to quote Adams and Jefferson as the fathers of conservatism, and then ignore half of what they had to say.

Modern "liberals" on the other hand feel that they can give government unbridled authority, and then expect them to stop at some unspecified point of reasonableness.

frobert — July 10, 2011 at 12:25 p.m. ( | suggest removal

nailingit — July 10, 2011 at 11:56 a.m.

Savery is specificly prohibited by the constitutional amendment.

frobert — July 10, 2011 at 12:28 p.m. ( | suggest removal

fro....except some personal responsibility here.....what is YOUR view as well as practiced "conservatism". You proudly claim allegiance to something you would rather not discuss?

Can't say as I blame you. Wake up fro...we are a society. Not a special interest group.

nailingit — July 10, 2011 at 12:31 p.m. ( | suggest removal

nailingit — July 10, 2011 at 12:20 p.m.

"what rights have "eroded" in your view?"

Read the 1st,2nd,4th,5th,6th,7th,8th,9th and 10th amendments.

frobert — July 10, 2011 at 12:33 p.m. ( | suggest removal

fro @ 12:28....some in your party want to repeal child labor laws. You have a way of bringing an argument together! ;))

nailingit — July 10, 2011 at 12:35 p.m. ( | suggest removal

nailingit — July 10, 2011 at 12:35 p.m.

On the Federal level they are not authorized by the Constitution. On the Sate level they also exist, so repealing the Federal laws does little to effect child labor laws. The popular propaganda however indicates that removing a redundant level of regulation, somehow harms children.

frobert — July 10, 2011 at 12:43 p.m. ( | suggest removal

nailingit — July 10, 2011 at 12:20 p.m.

"Is everyone aware that the former Grand Wizard of the KKK, David Duke, has announced his candidacy for POTUS running on the Republican ticket as he has in past elections?"

Actually he has only run for POTUS as a democrat. He ran for congress as a republican Reagan campaigned against him and republicans refused to caucus with him.

frobert — July 10, 2011 at 12:56 p.m. ( | suggest removal

The main flaw of modern "conservatism" is refusal to omit religon from the equation. frobert — July 10, 2011 at 12:25 p.m.

What about exploitation of workers and the resources of the planet?

mangoboy — July 10, 2011 at 1:31 p.m. ( | suggest removal

mangoboy — July 10, 2011 at 1:31 p.m.

Are you implying that rich liberals like Bill Gates are not exploiting the workers and resources of this planet? Are his manufacturing plants in China because he is willing to pay reasonable wages and conform to their strict enviromental policies?

frobert — July 10, 2011 at 1:56 p.m. ( | suggest removal

There is not that much difference between liberals and conservatives. Just the tendencies that you mentioned. Its like the two branches of Islam, killing each other over basically nothing.

mangoboy — July 10, 2011 at 2:13 p.m. ( | suggest removal

free markets enhance economic productivity and employment, and government programs perpetuate bureaucratic and special interests. Among his proposals: end corporate and farm welfare; chop defense spending in half; abolish numerous federal agencies; privatize government programs. roger — July 10, 2011 at 12:24 p.m.

Thumbs up to all of the above...

mangoboy — July 10, 2011 at 2:53 p.m. ( | suggest removal

privatize SOME government programs. consolidate MANY government agencies and entities....

mangoboy — July 10, 2011 at 2:58 p.m. ( | suggest removal

frooooobeeeert! LOL! Once again you tie my argument together. Duke couldn't get elected as a Democrat. Democrats didn't want him. It wasn't until he ran as a republican he won any sort of a republican Louisiana state Representative. LOL! frobert....not to sound insulting...but your reasoning process is all F'ed up. Or do you understand situations out of context in order to follow party line...think things through frobert!

Alley @ 12:57...I'm sure a few descendants of slaves and those that have championed equal rights for decades, along with most humans who have a basic understanding of America's history would take exception with your premise.."slavery to me is a relative term..".

I'm white alley, but I don't use my color as an excuse to diminish important history lessons.

How about...slavery to me is a "relative term" and the reasons are..... are white.

nailingit — July 10, 2011 at 3:44 p.m. ( | suggest removal

nailingit — July 10, 2011 at 3:44 p.m.

And lifelong democrat Fred Phelps has gotten considerable domocrat votes everytime he has run for office, so does that mean all democrats are homophobic?

frobert — July 10, 2011 at 3:53 p.m. ( | suggest removal

mangoboy @ 2:13...what a ridiculous statement. It's Americans with your train of thought that speaks of many low information well as the mountain of problems we have today.

We can do better than this people. 2012 will be an election that drives this countries economic future like no other. If you are old enough to vote... take it seriously with at least a ten year memory to go with it.

fro @ 12:43...we were speaking of party platform and god man read and understand in context when responding. Your answer validates my point once more.

nailingit — July 10, 2011 at 3:54 p.m. ( | suggest removal

fro...353...once again your reasoning is illogical and doesn't speak to the issue....sigh

nailingit — July 10, 2011 at 3:56 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Want to know where some of your tax dollars are being spent and how, take a look at this.

"Senator Tom Coburn’s (R-OK) whistle-blowing reports "Wastebook" (Published in 2010) and "National Science Foundation: Under the Microscope" (Published in 2011). You might want to find a bottle of Tums first."

1.$930 million spent on unnecessary printing costs. Federal agencies spent
$2.6 billion on printing. $28 million spent on the daily printing of over 4,500 copies of the congressional records, which are online.
2.$175 million on yearly upkeep for hundreds of empty buildings
3.$112 million for fraudulent tax reimbursement to prisoners.
4.$46.6 million On streetcar system that runs the same rout as the subway system below it in Atlanta.
5.$15.68 million for a shooting range in Nevada that lost $1.3 million last year and has yet to turn a profit.
6.$5 Million: On a three week conference for the FAA
The Federal Aviation Administration put up 3,600 employees during at a training conference in Atlanta. Some attendees say it resembled a three-week long party.
7.$4.2 Million on duplicate bus service for Federal employees. Taxpayers spent $18.5 million on a bus service for federal government employees. Many shuttles run empty rather than pick up workers from neighboring agencies, creating redundant routes.
8.$3 million on a study to see if sick shrimp displayed the same endurance on a treadmill that a healthy shrimp did.
9.$2.9 million to study computer games.
10.$2.5 Million: On a U.S. Census commercial

ELISI — July 10, 2011 at 4:01 p.m. ( | suggest removal

nailingit — July 10, 2011 at 3:54 p.m.

The party platform and ideal is that it is not legal at the federal level. Do you even have a point?

nailingit — July 10, 2011 at 3:56 p.m.

Maybe a better point would that many if not most republican politicians have denounced duke, many prominent republicans have campaigned for his democrat opponents, and the rnc even mounted a legal challenge to his claiming to be a republican. The question what did the democrats do when he was a member of their party?

frobert — July 10, 2011 at 4:06 p.m. ( | suggest removal


You sound like a proud member of the Democratic Party, and I actually find common ground with many democratic principles.
I may be low info but then, who needs more policy wonk useless information!
Its obvious we have an overbloated, over reaching multilayered monstrosity for government.
It could probably be reduced by half and it would not be missed.Federal, State, County, City, could all be consolidated and cut back with their intrusiveness. Do we need a drug enforcement agency or hundreds of redundant national security agencies, for example?

mangoboy — July 10, 2011 at 4:47 p.m. ( | suggest removal

mangoboy — July 10, 2011 at 4:47 p.m.

"You sound like a proud member of the Democratic Party"
I have to disagree, if someone truly believes the doctrine they wouldn't resort to misdirections and half truths. They would stick to the issues and support their platform, not attack those that differ.

frobert — July 10, 2011 at 5:31 p.m. ( | suggest removal

ELISI — July 10, 2011 at 4:01 p.m

Actually, how TC or his aides word the titles infers a lot that isn't factually based on what the studies actually focus on.

The shrimp one is one good example of the egregious behavior. Doesn't take much to discover they have missed mentioning how much that study helped the shrimp industry.

mr_basil_seal — July 10, 2011 at 6:23 p.m. ( | suggest removal

fro...531..sigh. I'm sorry you feel victimized to the point of crying on mangoboy's shoulder...LOL!!! LOL!!!

We aren't on the same page and that's cool fro. Didn't mean to get you worked up.

mangoboy...I hope you have a towel for the fromeister. Your statement is ridiculous. Not to be rude mango...if I may address you as such...just read it. What the hell? fro refuses to tell me who he has voted for in the last twenty years for President...just out of curiosity..for grits and have you voted Mango?

nailingit — July 10, 2011 at 8:39 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Democratic. But I am hoping a third party will emerge that better matches my values and hopes for the country.

mangoboy — July 10, 2011 at 8:57 p.m. ( | suggest removal

nailingit — July 10, 2011 at 8:39 p.m

I suppose if I couldn't find anything positive to say about my party I would be looking to find any bs reason to condemn the opposition also. I'm not upset I find it amusing that the only way you have to try to make the democrats look better is to distort the truth about other parties. Funny how it's always democrats that have to resort to that.

frobert — July 10, 2011 at 9:19 p.m. ( | suggest removal

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