Open Forum, July 11 - 17



The five most read stories on, July 3-9:

No. 1) Work begins to clean up eyesore in Sifton

No. 2) Man who drowned Sunday was Battle Ground police officer/ Man dies in accident off Government Island

No. 3 ) Battle Ground boy dies in plane crash

No. 4) Leaders trade bridge barbs

No. 5) Two men survive plane crash near Larch Mountain

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"Between 1980 and 2010, the value of a median-price, single-family house in California rose by an average of 3.6% per year—to $296,820 from $99,550, according to data from the California Association of Realtors, Freddie Mac and the U.S. Census. Even if that house was sold at the most recent market peak in 2007, the average annual price growth was just 6.61%.

So a dollar used to purchase a median-price, single-family California home in 1980 would have grown to $5.63 in 2007, and to $2.98 in 2010. The same dollar invested in the Dow Jones Industrial Index would have been worth $14.41 in 2007, and $11.49 in 2010."

(Wall Street Journal)

The "American Dream" is just a huge marketing scheme....

mangoboy — July 11, 2011 at 6:25 a.m. ( | suggest removal

"""The "American Dream" is just a huge marketing scheme..."""

Well Mangoboy....yes and no. It all depends on your definition of the American Dream. To many, it means owning your own home, having a good job and raising a happy family, sending your kids off to college and helping them to get a good start in life. To others, it means being able to make decisions for yourself rather than your government telling you what you can and cannot do. As for the ideals of owning your own home...that actually never comes about because you still have to pay for taxes just to have the right to live in the house you have purchased; but as long as you are paying your taxes, it's all yours once you're through with the banks. Regarding college??? That's no longer a guarantee for work and having a good job??? The majority of the folks of the US have jobs, some are good...some have to work twice as hard...but to stop dreaming the American're giving up on life. I believe the American Dream is still alive and well, and we all need to re-focus on just what the meaning of the American Dream is.

Marketing has tarnished a lot of our everyday life. Fourth of July...gotta sell them thar fireworks and watermelons!!! Christmas??? Toys for the kids and trinkets for the, buy, buy...and don't forget you have to buy the wrapping paper, ornaments, the tree and everything else that goes with it!!! Thanksgiving??? TURKEY or HAM must be purchased along with the cranberry sauce, the stuffing and the mashed potato mix. After all, that's what Mother would have done for Wally and the Beav.

So our freedoms to celebrate have been tarnished by marketing schemes as well. How do we rethink that??? Well, it's fine to buy the turkey and the ham if that's your preference, but why not grow your own potatoes to make your own mashed potatoes. It's quite simple to make and the potatoes here grow like dandelions. The stuffing??? Day-old homemade Frenchbread comes to my mind. As far as presents...just who is it we're celebrating a birthday for???

My point is...we ALL need to rethink our values as Americans if we want to keep the American Dream alive. Capitalism has modified our lives so much that it's hard to recognize that the dream is still there. Don't give up on it, Mango.

goldenoldie — July 11, 2011 at 6:42 a.m. ( | suggest removal

mangoboy — July 11, 2011 at 6:25 a.m

Though that is a quadruple cherry-picked set of data choices:

Arbitrary start and end date and fund and state.

mr_basil_seal — July 11, 2011 at 6:44 a.m. ( | suggest removal

You are so right goldenoldie. It is not only the marketing, the keeping up with the neighbors, the shopping addiction, but the lies we are told to sell us products, the most destructive recently being the selling of financial instruments/derivitives as a good investment. Men lie to women or at least pretend they are someone they are not to "win" their hand... And in the political arena, look at all the lies that are told to win elections, then the continued lying. And they justify it all by saying everyone is "stretching the truth" so the only way to compete is by using the same tactics. Who can you trust anymore?

mangoboy — July 11, 2011 at 7:03 a.m. ( | suggest removal


Good points GO, but the perspective is a little narrow;

Might also be worth looking into Participatory Economics (

Conscious Capitalism (


Natural Capitalism (

mr_basil_seal — July 11, 2011 at 7:20 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Basil- There are advantages to owning your own home but investors need to be told the truth.

"When adjusted for inflation, American home prices increased by an average of about half a percentage point per year from 1890 through 2008, according to data compiled by Yale University Prof. Robert Shiller."

mangoboy — July 11, 2011 at 7:23 a.m. ( | suggest removal

goldenoldie @6:42 am: You shared some deep and insightful thoughts this morning!

Consumerism, not capitalism, is what is so toxic to our financial health and well-being. Advertising is manipulated to make people want the product and the prestige/status it allegedly brings. Most of the time, we don't need it.

Being aware of this manipulation gives us power over it. For my family, we consciously left a high-end Oregon suburb 8 years ago where value was measured by your job, the type of cars you owned, and the size of your home.

There is so much freedom in refusing to play that game! Turn off the ads that bombard us by the minute or at least understand what they are really doing to you.

manthou — July 11, 2011 at 7:27 a.m. ( | suggest removal

My point exactly, Allen and Mangoboy.

Mango, it's a crazy world we live in and that's why everyone has to take a step back from the rat race and observe just what goals some of those rats are chasing. Those goals might not be the same goals we seek. A great example of marketing which plays on our minds is...well...

...mass media.

Does it help that there's shows like "Who Wants to Be a Millionaire" or even these "Dream Home" television shows? Does everyone have to upgrade their homes to reflect those of the stars? Are granite counter tops really necessary? And why do we need the biggest wide-screen LED television in our homes? Is our focus really on what goes on in the media/cyber world? Tell me this, folks. Remember the old rotary dial phones where it took a few seconds for the number to finish redialing? What time was lost? 35 seconds??? Now...the phones are cellular. You can store the numbers for quick don't have to pick up the phone receiver to dial any more. You can just text your message to your friend or family one-on-one discussion...and there's always facebook. Okay, for some people whose business takes them many places, I can see the need for cell phones with internet...but we're so caught up in the marketability scheme of things and it doesn't help that mass media shows whats bigger and better.

Now in my case, I do not have a cell phone. I'm home most of the time so why would I need one? How many of you still have phone service with a plug in phone? I do...and I'm glad I do. I also have a cordless for convenience, I'm not denying it...but what I'm saying is that everyone worldwide is caught up in the hype of mass media, mass marketing and that bigger is always better.

How many of us are saying "Gee, I sure could use a vacation right about now...."??? Would you take your cell phone and laptop on your vacation???

Sometimes a staycation comes in handy at home. Step away from the tv, the computer and cell phone for even one day and you will all go through a withdrawal of sort, I guarantee it. Those media giants??? That's why they are so big, folks. We've been trained that bigger is better. Time for retraining.

goldenoldie — July 11, 2011 at 7:30 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Allen and mangoboy: I agree that people need a reliable, safe place to live. They need that shelter, food, clothing before any other higher needs can be met (thank you, Abraham Maslow!)

Getting that stable residence is important. It does not have to be a castle and it may mean renting from a reliable , ethical landlord.

manthou — July 11, 2011 at 7:39 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Allen, I'm right there with you. Already have the gas grill as well as charcoal grill and camp stove...with additional propane and chunk charcoal. Never use lighter fluid, either. Even if we won't need them, we will still use them. Love them cookouts!!!

Basil, thanks for recognizing my meager attempts to explain. You appear to be quite educated in economics. I have watched the first link you shared and found it right on the mark pretty much with what I was trying to just explains everything much better. I will check out the other links later but my apples need to be cooked for applesauce in a few.

Manthou, thanks. I believe consumerism and capitalism go hand in hand.

goldenoldie — July 11, 2011 at 7:47 a.m. ( | suggest removal

mangoboy — July 11, 2011 at 7:23 a.m.

True enough, but there are - as others have noted - several other significant reasons for owning 'real property'. And somewhere - maybe the late 80's early 90's - it seems we moved from the Am. Dr. of owning a home, to buying an investment. Look at when the upsurge in McMansions started and where.

manthou — July 11, 2011 at 7:39 a.m.
Kudos for pointing to Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs ( )

It needs mentioning that there a lot of laws on the books developed to make sure that renters have reasonable rights.

mr_basil_seal — July 11, 2011 at 7:55 a.m. ( | suggest removal

alleycat- To raise the debt ceiling this year pays debt that has already been borrowed. It would be like you writing a check, receiving services provided from that check, and then say to the service provider "I'm not going to pay you."

I'd like to say that to my mortgage co and a few others, but it's not responsible, and they shouldn't trust me in the future. The world runs on credit, regardless if you personally have incurred debt.

I take comfort in that republican's are so predictable. Making the debt ceiling an issue this year because the straws are getting fewer to grasp. Did these guys cry when GW raised it year after year? Never been an issue in the past. Elect a president that drives the good ol' boys nuts and this as well as other issues get thrown on the table.

We're not a slave to debt, we are slaves to the blinding light that we obey, and the many reasons we do it.

nailingit — July 11, 2011 at 8 a.m. ( | suggest removal

nailingit, you wisely state at 8 am: We're not a slave to debt, we are slaves to the blinding light that we obey, and the many reasons we do it.

We all would be better-informed citizens and consumers if we realized that our fears of being excluded and left behind are masterfully manipulated by politicians and products! :)

manthou — July 11, 2011 at 8:07 a.m. ( | suggest removal

nailingit — July 11, 2011 at 8 a.m.

The only way the debt ceiling stops us from paying debt is if we are borrowing to pay debt.

frobert — July 11, 2011 at 8:11 a.m. ( | suggest removal

nailingit: I do think the opposition party is very intent on making sure President Obama is NOT successful. His election has, indeed, threatened the good ol' boy culture. They gave President Bush so many passes by going along with him or looking the other way........but this president: No way.

The citizens are suffering for it the most and might be too blinded by their own biases to figure it out.

manthou — July 11, 2011 at 8:20 a.m. ( | suggest removal

manthou — July 11, 2011 at 8:20 a.m

I'm glad you pointed that out. I wish everybody understood what kind of crap was going on in D.C.

hawkeye — July 11, 2011 at 8:32 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Anybody going to have dinner with Romney? It's only $1000 a plate.

hawkeye — July 11, 2011 at 8:36 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Allen — July 11, 2011 at 7:38 a.m.

Just to add to that: Much of the emergency prep - especially the level it is taken to - is as much determined by political viewpoints as Maslow's Hierarchy.

And it is always a good idea to practice (and do stuff like rotate your LP tanks)

And, the Clark Regional Emergency Services Agency (actually, Cowlitz County Emergency Management) has a easy to start, solid basis to work on. (unless you think 12 weeks is too short a time to 'get ready'.)

mr_basil_seal — July 11, 2011 at 8:45 a.m. ( | suggest removal

hawkeye — July 11, 2011 at 8:36 a.m.

If you go, here's some questions to ask:,0,2231785.story

mr_basil_seal — July 11, 2011 at 8:46 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Hey Hawkeye, I could...but then again, there wouldn't be any gas for the truck for the month...PUD might have to wait...I'd have to skip a month of insurance...hmm....

Nope, I guess I'm not going. Mitt will have to go on without me at the dinner. Priorities, you know.

goldenoldie — July 11, 2011 at 9:04 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Oh, Basil. You have me confused with someone who actually cares about "Mitt the mutt".

The only way I would go to that dinner would be if I was being paid to go and someone actually interesting was the speaker.

But thanks for the link, that was interesting.

hawkeye — July 11, 2011 at 9:05 a.m. ( | suggest removal

You know something everyone??? Maybe it's just me and my own perception of things, but I truly enjoy reading the daily comments in the basement. I check the headlines...maybe make a few comments here after reading the articles, but half the time I don't even waste my time reading the FB comments any more. As far as the basement...there's always something to learn and everybody just clicks so well together in discussion. It isn't the same in the Facebook side of the C. That is still so disorganized and detached from real heartfelt discussion I read here on a daily basis. I like OUR basement.

goldenoldie — July 11, 2011 at 9:10 a.m. ( | suggest removal


Hope your truck gas bill really isn't $1K! ;-)

hawkeye — July 11, 2011 at 9:05 a.m.

I agree, the only way I'd be darkening that door - or for that matter, any politician acce$$ - would be in front with a sign:

Maybe something like: How many cans of food for the 99er's / homeless / injured vets / would your $1K buy?

mr_basil_seal — July 11, 2011 at 9:12 a.m. ( | suggest removal

It isn't, Basil. My point was my priorities take precedence over paying $1,000 to see a presidential hopeful no matter what political party they represent.

goldenoldie — July 11, 2011 at 9:17 a.m. ( | suggest removal

goldenoldie — July 11, 2011 at 9:17 a.m

There was a column a while back (I'll see if I can dig it up) that was discussing whether BG III was a liberal or not. He puts a lot of Gates money to social issues, so the cons call him liberal.....

And one point was that III had donated 35K to a a group working on a gun control initiative.

And his dad (BGII) had donated 4x the amount....

The real question is those that do the 1K a plate dinners probably aren't budgeting ahead much (or missing a mortgage payment) for that 'experience' , it would be interesting what those $$$$ go to other months.

mr_basil_seal — July 11, 2011 at 9:27 a.m. ( | suggest removal

goldenoldie — July 11, 2011 at 9:10 a.m.


mr_basil_seal — July 11, 2011 at 9:29 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Ahh, here it is:
Is Bill Gates a closet liberal?

mr_basil_seal — July 11, 2011 at 9:30 a.m. ( | suggest removal

manthou- The right are as rabid as they were in 2010. I am amazed at the short term memories that come into play with the middle class. Policies enacted during the Bush years and for the most part a majored republican congress 1994-2006 got us into this mess, and the GOP position is to return to the Bush years.

Where are the jobs? It's what Republicans ran on in 08', got elected and their base is so blinded you never hear about them holding these guys accountable. The house has killed multiple jobs bills.

In the last year of the Bush debacle millions of jobs were lost. Over 750,000 in his last month in office alone. People....let's not forget this.

Let's remember the 2004 election. After that tragedy anything can happen and will.

hawkeye @ 8:36...I got us a couple of tickets on craigslist from a working girl who got a better offer and cited too much competition at the event to make it worth her while. She said something about a Hummer and someone named Vitter. Anyway, I felt cheapened by having the tickets and flushed them down my toilet along with the load of crap they will most likely serve up.

nailingit — July 11, 2011 at 10:12 a.m. ( | suggest removal

That's OK, nail. If I want crappy tasting chicken, I'll go to KFC. (have you noticed they don't call it "Kentucky Fried Chicken" anymore?) I actually prefer Popeyes.

Anyway, talk about Hummers, I saw something funny yesterday. A Hummer pulling a trailer full of bicycles down the freeway. It looked like they were coming back from an outing. I don't know what it was about that but it seemed really wrong, somehow.

hawkeye — July 11, 2011 at 10:27 a.m. ( | suggest removal

..makes me think of gas powered windmills. Maybe they used a large gas fueled generator in the woods to watch video's on going green. Popeye's rocks. One of the tastes from home troops get overseas through DOD contracting many Popeye's throughout the world.

nailingit — July 11, 2011 at 10:35 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Library Book Sales

July 14 – 17 Battle Ground Fri/Sat 10-9; Sun 9-3

July 16 Three Creeks 10-5

Info from FVRL website:

buckeye71 — July 11, 2011 at 11:02 a.m. ( | suggest removal

This is what happens when you sign a pledge....

Many of the republicans (and some dems) signed that Pledge from Americans for Tax Reform. That stated that they will not vote for a bill that will raise taxes. Now that is a noble ideal but when it comes to trying to lower the debt you take away half the tools in the box (lower costs or increase revenues). Now they are stuck between a rock and a hard place because they stated they can't vote for any increases and if they do, the way politics and era of the 140character tweet you are either a liar or a closet liberal. one will attacked by both sides in the next election.

pdxtech91 — July 11, 2011 at 11:27 a.m. ( | suggest removal

pdxtech91- Signing a pledge means taking the hit for doing so good or bad. And signing this pledge speaks to self-serving interests and shortened sight. It's good the public can have at least this much transparency and hold these public employees responsible.

nailingit — July 11, 2011 at 12:02 p.m. ( | suggest removal

allen...less than a handful of Dems have signed it...around 370 on board I believe with 4 or 5 Dems signing on. It's a national pledge to bow to corporate interests or suffer defeat in the next election.......I smell Koch bros and a pot of rancid tea whistling in the wind.

nailingit — July 11, 2011 at 12:10 p.m. ( | suggest removal

goldenoldie @ 9:10 am: I was thinking the same thing this morning! I truly learn something everytime I enter the "basement." There is reasonable discussion and ideas shared respectfully.

There is no way to do that with the Facebook format. No way to develop the online relationships that bring people back.

It is a "sanitized and standardized" format that is comforting and recognizable to most people, I guess. But there is no flow to the discussion and it all seems disjointed: like so many drive-by opinions.

manthou — July 11, 2011 at 12:12 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Allen....Simple answer...Yes;=y

Fill in the blank and sign ones legislative rights away.

The Taxpayer Protection Pledge

I, _____, pledge to the taxpayers of the (____ district of the) state of ______ and to the American people that I will:

ONE, oppose any and all efforts to increase the marginal income tax rate for individuals and business; and

TWO, oppose any net reduction or elimination of deductions and credits, unless matched dollar for dollar by further reducing tax rates.

Source: Americans for Tax Reform

pdxtech91 — July 11, 2011 at 12:18 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Pdxtech91 --- Thanks.

Americans for Tax Reform is headed by Grover Norquist. Scroll down and look at funding sources and other projects in link below:

Here is a list of Koch Brothers front groups:;_by_field=date&dummy;=dummy

buckeye71 — July 11, 2011 at 12:45 p.m. ( | suggest removal

pdxtech91 — July 11, 2011 at 12:18 p.m

I believe Allen is talking about the anti gay pledge that a couple of candidates have sighed onto but others have called it un-American. Also as it contrary to the tea party's stated goals, I would say that it does not serve the tea party.

frobert — July 11, 2011 at 12:46 p.m. ( | suggest removal

...just what the hell is the "tea party" anyway. More War v No War...No same sex v same sex rights...No public option v rights infringement...No Comprehensive immigration reform v individual rights...New Testament only way to live v let the naked stay naked, the hungry stay hungry, the poor stay long as the Bush tax cuts aren't touched, and current tax rates and loopholes remain in place on multi-million dollar investments such as luxury yachts and corporate jets...No abortion v defunding needed health programs...

We need to remember Obama is in talks with the same guy that passed out paychecks (bribes) on the house floor from big tobacco . I hope Obama remembers it. I hope Obama cares.

How absurd this 'Speaker of the House' should have any say in our countries economic future. The rest of the world laughs and cry's at how comical/corrupt we are. The ol' tragedy/comedy thing.....sigh

nailingit — July 11, 2011 at 1:27 p.m. ( | suggest removal

nailingit — July 11, 2011 at 1:27 p.m

"How absurd this 'Speaker of the House' should have any say in our countries economic future."

Have you even read the Constitution?

frobert — July 11, 2011 at 1:40 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Aint it funny that the BIG C posts most read stories at the beginning of the weeks forum and no one here makes further comments on them.

Hey, GO, try that link to the Cascadia Policy in today's LTE in reference to the loo-rail boondoggle in Oregon. It seems that the peons over there are just now starting to make some serious waves. About time.

In most of the articles about Tri-Met and Lite-Rail in the P-town fish-wrapper not many people have whined about it. I think it is changing, as well as their view on their lying mayor.

See you all next week!!

JohnCasey — July 11, 2011 at 2:49 p.m. ( | suggest removal


today seems to be the perfect example of why the basement is the best room in this cyberhouse.

i usually don't post here, because somebody else will have said what i was thinking.

this is like meeting good, old friends over coffee.

DeeLittle — July 11, 2011 at 3:33 p.m. ( | suggest removal

fro..140...speaking to his the context of his actions I mentioned in previous paragraph.....not about what's in his job purview. You're not processing train of thought fro. That's okay. You vote for whom you like. Power to the people...and all that. I understand if you have a situation that causes you to understand in literal terms and lack comprehensive functionality with nuanced conversation. I encourage you to keep your head involved in the process, as well as your interaction with others. Please try and think outside of your experiences and be open to change.

nailingit — July 11, 2011 at 3:35 p.m. ( | suggest removal


I think Allen is talking about:

Which would be, yes it does.

I think I have posted before about the Tea Party (or the wing of the Republican Party they call the Tea Party). It started with the "PAULIES" and I understand that form of Libertarianism which is less govt intervention in EVERYTHING including what goes on in my house, what I post on online, less wars, therefore less taxes. I don't agree with some of it but at least I understand it. What the GOP is trying to turn the Tea Party movement into, I don't understand at all. It sounds like a mixture of all the disenfranchised factions of the GOP, neocons, religious right, paulies, what would be johnbirchers. I don't think you can ask more than one what they stand for because you'll get different answers from each.
I think that's why you will always here what they are against not what they are for.

Michele Bachmann comes to mind. When attacked by Pawlenty about her voting record in congress she retorted with everything she voted against, but nothing that she voted for.

pdxtech91 — July 11, 2011 at 3:54 p.m. ( | suggest removal

nailingit — July 11, 2011 at 1:27 p.m

"...just what the hell is the "tea party" anyway."
One thing is sure, they support pretty much nothing that you and Allen claim they are.

"The Tea Party movement is a grassroots movement of millions of like-minded Americans from all backgrounds and political parties. Tea Party members share similar core principles supporting the United States Constitution as the Founders intended, such as:
• Limited federal government
• Individual freedoms
• Personal responsibility
• Free markets
• Returning political power to the states and the people"

frobert — July 11, 2011 at 4 p.m. ( | suggest removal

@ 4:00....LOL!!! .....and you believe it!

nailingit — July 11, 2011 at 4:05 p.m. ( | suggest removal

grassroots?????? The tea party? That was started by Rove (or Cheney), what in the world is grassroots about that part? Lots of misguided people joining in a "movement' set up by puppet masters. Come on....and I actually do believe lots of them mean well, but they are still very very misguided. Those are the people defending tax breaks for the rich as they make all these nice nice jobs we all have, right? Did not work so far, and they still believe that.
AlleyCat might have had a dreamer's list earlier on on what this country should support and stand for, but it sure was one I can totally believe in and support.

luvithere — July 11, 2011 at 4:10 p.m. ( | suggest removal

nailingit — July 11, 2011 at 4:05 p.m

I am sure I could come up with a description of democrats based on the words of such great democrats as Byrd, Wallace, Nunn and Phelps, but the only valid description of democrats as a whole is their platform.

frobert — July 11, 2011 at 4:10 p.m. ( | suggest removal

luvithere — July 11, 2011 at 4:10 p.m.

Their stated goals are their common thread. Your opinion that they are misguided may be valid, but that is not what I am talking about. My point is that people like nailingit and Allen keep coming up with statements about what they believe in and totally disregard what their common goals. Believe in them or not, it doesn't matter but don't use deception to try to vilify them.

frobert — July 11, 2011 at 4:27 p.m. ( | suggest removal

I do not use deception. I state my opinion. And I firmly believe that this was a well orchestrated move. And people fell for it.I might be able to agree with some of the stuff the tea party supposedly stands for but when they yell for firing state and federal workers as if they are the enemy and to be blamed for our ills, then I have to say these people are very very misguided. And when they think giving huge tax breaks to big corporations as this leads to jobs, then I call them fools. All these tax breaks - and where are the jobs??? And where is the GOP who got voted in on their job platform? When do they even talk about it? But that might be another topic.

luvithere — July 11, 2011 at 4:34 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Earlier there was talk about Bill Gates being a closet liberal.

Maybe he is like the rest of us...there are somethings he is "for" and some depend on how if affects him. Bill was/is a big supporter to raise the amount of H-1B visas to bring foreign nationals to the US to fill US (Microsoft) high tech jobs, not only engineers but technicians also.

John Chambers, CEO of Cisco, King of the off-shore dummy divisions and tax dodge, is now petitioning for a TAX HOLIDAY to bring the cash back to the US without penalty. What he doesn't tell you is that he needs to bring liquidity back to the US because he has dividends that need to be paid so the cash needs to come back to the US regardless.

"The Bush Tax Breaks" have been around for a few years so it should be easy to quantify by those that received the breaks how many jobs they created with the extra cash and how many they would need to cut if the tax break is lost. I've never heard how many US jobs have been created because of the tax breaks.

pdxtech91 — July 11, 2011 at 4:37 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Apparently married slaves were MUCH better off then Blacks who grow up in broken families.

mangoboy — July 11, 2011 at 4:45 p.m. ( | suggest removal

pdxtech91 — July 11, 2011 at 4:37 p.m

That's because you can't quantify zero. The only thing Bush's tax breaks did was give free money to the business owners that qualified for them.

hawkeye — July 11, 2011 at 4:46 p.m. ( | suggest removal

mangoboy — July 11, 2011 at 4:45 p.m.

OK, I read that article and found it interesting. My question is this,

If they are expecting a family with a Mother and Father and they want one of them home to raise the children, are they going to subsidize the family for the loss of revenue? Unless one parent makes A LOT of money, I don't see how it can be done these days.

hawkeye — July 11, 2011 at 4:52 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Nailingit and Pdxtech91

He needs to look at the links I posted 12:45. I don't think there are very many thinking adults who don't understand how the TP was created and FUNDED by Koch Bros and others. Grass roots? No, astro-turf.

"It sounds like a mixture of all the disenfranchised factions of the GOP, neocons, religious right, paulies, what would be johnbirchers." pdxtech91 3:54 pm

I think you have to add the racist element to the equation also. The Birchers and the racists bring the ugly. The Bachman Tea Party brings the crazy and racist. Palin brings the ignorant and star struck. The Tea Party is fractured. They have never been through the power brokering of a national convention. The Tea Party is whatever the Kochs and the Norquists and Ailes and Fox and their money say it is. It is pathetic to see people going against their own best interests. However, I totally understand any multi-millionaires and billionaires supporting right wing nut jobs [RWNJ]. That support is in their best interest in the short term.

Santorum and Bachman have signed the pledge from The Family Leader in Iowa.

I wonder how that pledge goes over with the "Wanna Get High; Wanna Get Laid" [paulies] crowd? I used to think that everyone got over Ayn Rand by sophomore year in college & the dog-eared copies of her books weren't that cool any more. Looks like I was wrong. They can win straw polls at least.

buckeye71 — July 11, 2011 at 5:03 p.m. ( | suggest removal

buckeye71 — July 11, 2011 at 5:03 p.m.

Here is what Gary Johnson has to say about it.

frobert — July 11, 2011 at 5:30 p.m. ( | suggest removal

The Columbian is actually reporting on City Council on Twitter.

@thecolumbian @col_cityhall

I have never seen actual reporting of the meetings before in any form. Occasionally, someone will write something they think is cute or report on a CRC discussion but never a report on the work sessions and the meeting.

I might be jumping the gun since the meeting doesn't start until 6:30 but they are tweeting the work session.

@thecolumbian The Columbian
Follow @col_cityhall for the latest on the #VanWa City Council and today's meeting on the council's ethics policy.

buckeye71 — July 11, 2011 at 5:46 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Excellent and needed post buckeye71. It's like some are living a paralleled existence blinded from reason with a penchant to harm themselves. I've got a pledge Sarah can sign.

Come to think of it...

hawkeye...I'm takin' a redeye into the minds eye of the people. We need a couple of pledges put together on behalf of the middle class. Allen you've got the job if you are still interested. A pledge for Democrats as well as another for Republicans. Salary will be commensurate with state per diem rates involving user fuel expenditures.

nailingit — July 11, 2011 at 5:54 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Thanks for that. He is interesting. However, not a snowball's chance ...

That answers this question for at least one of them.

I wonder how that pledge goes over with the "Wanna Get High; Wanna Get Laid" [paulies] crowd?

buckeye71 — July 11, 2011 at 5:57 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Hope your scribes don't include this in their pledges:

Recognition that robust childbearing and reproduction is beneficial to U.S. demographic, economic, strategic and actuarial health and security.

See how that ties in with not funding contraception and reproduction education? What does that say about the status of women in their America?

buckeye71 — July 11, 2011 at 6:05 p.m. ( | suggest removal

buckeye71 — July 11, 2011 at 5:03 p.m

Is that the same Koch brothers that opposed the Iraq war,support ending the war on drugs, support gay marriage and donate millions to stem cell research,cancer research and the arts?

frobert — July 11, 2011 at 6:10 p.m. ( | suggest removal

buckeye Yes, Andrea is tweeting from the council meeting. It's part of our larger social media effort in the newsroom. All the reporters are setting up Twitter handles for their beats and covering events live via Twitter.

Golden and Manthou I'm glad you like it here in the basement. We definitely appreciate your contributions here. We're working on getting a better forum system in place as we set up online communities for our various areas of coverage.

Libby Clark — July 11, 2011 at 6:25 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Thank you, Libby. Honestly, I don't think you have to work at getting a better forum system as far as the basement is concerned...and I see you are using that term rather comfortably as well. It really fits, doesn't it! Anyhow, all of us who post here are quite aware of the rules set forth by the Columbian, and it hasn't been "work" to keep it as friendly as it is. Any difference of opinion has been openly shared and is received with constructive discussion 99% of the time. I don't sense that "threat" feeling that was once on the C before FB came along, although there was one recent incident of virtual posturing which was shrugged off rather quickly by everyone. Also Libby, the discussions are continuous which makes following the comments quite simple.

Now the FB side of things...that's a whole different story. If there was even a way they could be chronologically listed rather than just saying "two hours ago" or "eleven hours ago," maybe people could follow the discussion, but as far as I'm concerned, the structure of community opinions and discussions is still lacking on the FB side.

Of course Libby, that's just my opinion that I felt I needed to share. Isn't it great that we have the freedom to speak our minds in this nation!!!

goldenoldie — July 11, 2011 at 6:44 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Dee Little, I wish you'd stay around more. Your comments are few lately...and I know you have a lot to share.

Do you take cream or sugar?

goldenoldie — July 11, 2011 at 6:53 p.m. ( | suggest removal

JohnCasey, I checked out Cascade Policy's website and the information that pertains to LRT and trolleys...

Interesting website, for sure.

goldenoldie — July 11, 2011 at 6:58 p.m. ( | suggest removal


"...I used to think that everyone got over Ayn Rand by sophomore year in college & the dog-eared copies of her books weren't that cool any more..."

Sometimes it takes a little longer and you need to study psychology and find out what narcissism is all about.


If the GOP wouldn't give the time of day to R. Paul in the last primary I doubt they will give Gary Johnson even a nod.

pdxtech91 — July 11, 2011 at 7:16 p.m. ( | suggest removal

The lines between the Tea Party and the evangelical/christian dominionist movements have become increasingly blurred. The Koch brothers Americans for Prosperity and the religious right's Freedom Federation have become very cozy in recent months. Bachmann, Palin, Huckabee, Gingrich and others all have ties to both. The Tea Party has become extremely vocal of late in insisting that this nation was founded as a Christian one, and have branched out from their roots as small government fiscal conservatives to espousing anti-abortion, anti-gay, and other social conservative stands.

This is becoming eerily similar to Munich in the early 1930's.

roger — July 11, 2011 at 7:19 p.m. ( | suggest removal

roger — July 11, 2011 at 7:19 p.m.

Camparing libertarian leaning republicans with national socialists?

I'm sure you have some liberal blog to support your claim.

frobert — July 11, 2011 at 7:31 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Do you people even realize that nazi's where socialists and with the exception of race and religion, their talking points then where very close to what you are saying today? I'm not implying that those points are bad just pointing out how flawed your propaganda is.

frobert — July 11, 2011 at 7:41 p.m. ( | suggest removal


I started with The Washington Post. I suppose in some circles they're liberals. Salon was another source. Also a guy who used to be a New York Times reporter by the name of Hedges. He gets a bit radical, but manages to support what he claims fairly well.

roger — July 11, 2011 at 7:54 p.m. ( | suggest removal

The Michele Bachmann Guide to Slavery
— By Jen Quraishi

As you may have read, Michele Bachmann signed something that said that black families were better off during slavery. Then she backtracked, but her spokeswoman made some weird comments regarding "economic" slavery. And she's called homosexuality enslavement too. Ooookay, then! Here are the three types (so far!) of slavery according to Bachmann.

mr_basil_seal — July 11, 2011 at 8:02 p.m. ( | suggest removal

roger — July 11, 2011 at 7:54 p.m.

I am not a tea party member, but they claim a group that shares similar core values and they are specificly stated. None of the issues you claimed are stated. Again with the words of democrats like Wallace, Byrd, Nunn and Phelps someone could paint a pretty condemning picture of their party, that wouldn't be even close to the party values.

frobert — July 11, 2011 at 8:03 p.m. ( | suggest removal

roger — July 11, 2011 at 7:54 p.m.

I quickly read the washington post article, I don't see someone saying what the tea party believes in, and aknowleging they deny it, as any different than bob calling all democrats godless communists. The only valid place to get the tea party belief's is from them.

frobert — July 11, 2011 at 8:20 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Corporate America and the religious Right leadership are teaming up to permanently take the country back from the working middle class. Corporate funding and religious mind control. The evangelical movement was their first army, and the Tea Party movement was co-opted and is being turned into the second wave.

But I'll be just as happy to criticize the liberal leftists who have turned the environment into their own religion. The poor 60's/70's college kids had to turn to something after Vietnam ended - and this was a lot more genteel than the in-your-face tactics of the womens' movement, gay rights activists,

Bottom line is that both sides seek to control my personal choices in life.

Oh, and I do subscribe to a form of libertarianism - the socialist type, that believes control of the economy needs to be taken away from Corporate America. Their track record for caring about anything other than personal enrichment is abysmal. And a limited Socialist government, focused on clearly defined duties such as the economy and national defense, gives us our best chance of improving our lot as a whole.

roger — July 11, 2011 at 8:20 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Allen — July 11, 2011 at 8:17 p.m.

She's a joke, I would even consider voting for Obama if she where nominated.

frobert — July 11, 2011 at 8:28 p.m. ( | suggest removal

...I think it's funny that Michele Bachman received a degree from a Christian University whose founder has the first name of oral.....childish I know...just sayin'.

nailingit — July 11, 2011 at 8:34 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Allen — July 11, 2011 at 8:26 p.m.


Olympia Snowe and Ron Paul.

Yes I know what you are talking about and you are the one that compared me to bob and you deserved that comment.

frobert — July 11, 2011 at 8:37 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Did anyone read that Dick Cheany was spotted at a GOP Log Cabin/GoProud event?

nailingit — July 11, 2011 at 8:38 p.m. ( | suggest removal

I changed my mind. Theater of the absurd and all that. Plato against the sophist Gorgias; I've been having flashbacks to Phil 101 after reading much of the discussion here the past couple of days.

None of the people you're arguing about matter - Obama, Boehner, Pelosi, and the young crowd are all bought and paid for.

roger — July 11, 2011 at 8:54 p.m. ( | suggest removal

roger @ 8:20 pm: I agree with your point of view on the benefits of a socialist slant.

I lived for five years in Saskatchewan. It is known as the only fully socialist government in North America. The major corporations are government-owned and run and are called "Crown Corporations": SaskTel; SaskEnergy; SaskPower; SaskWater; Sask Gaming, etc. I even have a Saskatechewan Pension Plan.

When I had a child there (all medical expenses were paid for by the government), I was automatically visted by a social worker when I brought the baby home, who was there to identify any extraordinary needs we might have. We didn't. But every new baby gets a visit to check on its welfare.

My children had a dental clinic in their school and were given their care there. Our property taxes could go to either the public school or the parochial school: it was our choice. When that Canadian-born son was ready for college, we had been back in the USA for years by then. He still could go to any college in Canada that accepted his application, for a very minimal fee. He chose Simon Fraser in BC. His brothers did not have that option and are still paying back student loans as young men in their early 30's.

I often would marvel at the elderly in Saskatchewan and wondered why they put up with the harsh winter weather. Their response was always: "The government takes good care of me and I cannot live better anywhere else."

I could go on. But living there taught me that Socialism is not a dirty word. If it weren't for the weather (so harsh), I would find a way to go back. It was expensive, but salaries were greater and we never felt like we were missing out.

manthou — July 11, 2011 at 8:54 p.m. ( | suggest removal

nailingit: Doesn't Dick Cheney have a lesbian daughter? Maybe he was there to support her and her family? Good for him. It makes him almost human. :)

manthou — July 11, 2011 at 8:58 p.m. ( | suggest removal

manthou — July 11, 2011 at 8:54 p.m.

How much is the GST and income tax?

frobert — July 11, 2011 at 9:01 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Sorry, could you explain what you mean?

Sometimes it takes a little longer and you need to study psychology and find out what narcissism is all about.

buckeye71 — July 11, 2011 at 9:03 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Taxes were high, frobert. And we did not get a tax credit for our mortgage interest. Most people pay off their mortgages quickly.

But we pocketed a fair amount of the income we made and did not suffer.

I am someone who does not mind paying my fair share of taxes, though. You can't run the government on air and good will. :)

manthou — July 11, 2011 at 9:05 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Socialism, like most theories on governing ourselves, is limited by the people we allow to be our leaders. Canada has a pretty good track record with building a society that focuses on the well being of its people. Germany has turned out pretty good also; I saw a lot living there that I wish we'd incorporate here. (Not light rail, though!!) And the major criticism capitalists use against socialism is that governments that don't subscribe to the free marketplace stifle advancement. Which leads me to ask how one of the most oppressive regimes ever - Nazi Germany - was also responsible for more development in several scientific and manufacturing fields than possibly anywhere else anywhere in time?

But I'd rather carry on about something more of a local concern. Like why hasn't Pat Campbell dropped in to say something that'll piss everyone off? I had him pegged as a basement dweller.

roger — July 11, 2011 at 9:32 p.m. ( | suggest removal

From the Vancouver City Council article in The Columbian -

"But the council’s new ethics policy, which is set for adoption in an upcoming meeting, no longer includes regulations on councilor’s personal conduct. Following a recommendation from City Attorney Ted Gathe, the council pulled language that requires council members to treat each other with respect from the ethics policy. Conduct is not along the same lines as ethics, and also does not appear in most other Washington cities’ ethics policies, Gathe said."

Does this mean we can expect more "gavel 'em down!" and maybe even an old fashioned caning in the future?

roger — July 11, 2011 at 9:39 p.m. ( | suggest removal

roger — July 11, 2011 at 9:32 p.m.

No more of a bottom feeder.

frobert — July 11, 2011 at 9:41 p.m. ( | suggest removal

roger: I hope that the "gavel down" incident was aversive enough that no one will ever try to repeat or mimic it!

Interesting point that Gathe recommended about pulling the "respect" requirement from the ethics policies. That is a gray area. One would have to narrowly define "respect." One person's respect is another's insult.

Ethics rules are usually less open-to-interpretation.

Regardless, I expect they all will be minding their Ps and Qs.

Pat Campbell made it clear he was not going to Facebook. I think it is always risky to pontificate publicly when one is running for re-election and perhaps this explains his absence. Take a page from Sarah Palin's book: avoid the press. Avoid scrutiny. Avoid having to explain yourself later :)

manthou — July 11, 2011 at 10:09 p.m. ( | suggest removal

I pasted the link to Steve Duin's Oregonian column today, a follow up of Jeff Manning's excellent expose of the CRC consultant fees, on the Columbia River Crossing thread.

The comment section is a great back and forth with the author of the column and is a must-read for those of us on the Northbank of the river who have expressed similar concerns.

manthou — July 12, 2011 at 6:59 a.m. ( | suggest removal


As I responded to your post on the CRC thread, this article is excellent - anyone who cares about how taxpayer money gets spent needs to read it. I also added a link to the latest CRC project map, which leads me to believe they intend to keep going like this until stopped. I'm not a big fan - in fact, not much of a fan at all - of our Republican Congress and their cost cutting measures. However, another Columbian article today says they're looking at diverting funding for the high speed/AMTRAK rail to recovery from the recent floods. If they do retain control of the House in the upcoming elections, I'm thinking the CRC project will see expected funding from that direction disappear. If nothing else, it's going to become quite interesting.

roger — July 12, 2011 at 7:37 a.m. ( | suggest removal


Reference the City Council ethics policy - personally, I'd rather see them at each others' throats. Civility has its place, but given the issues being dealt with I'd be more concerned if everyone was being nicey-nice. If Ms. Harris didn't want to hear any more from the anti-CRC crowd, so be it. At least she was honest enough to say so. And if Ms. Wetzel wins her run for a seat, can we expect more fireworks?

roger — July 12, 2011 at 7:50 a.m. ( | suggest removal


I was talking about how Rand's heroes are narcissistic. They are great books and I love the powerful heroes in her stories but when you look at them closely you see that their attitude is always "what is good for me must be good for you" and "I always make the right decision" and "if anything goes wrong it is always the other guys fault". Akin to Plato's Philosopher Kings only they are the Capitalist Kings.

Also Rand's heroes remind me of the Superman and Batman stories in the 60s and 70s by DC Comics. No matter what they did it was always right and had no character flaws. Which brought Marvel Comics heroes with their "fuller" personalities to prominence. (Spiderman, X-men, ETC). I am rambling here, but I just thought of the comic book analogy while I was writing this.

pdxtech91 — July 12, 2011 at 7:51 a.m. ( | suggest removal

During Bush Presidency, Current GOP Leaders Voted 19 Times To Increase Debt Limit By $4 Trillion
By Travis Waldron

After pushing the government to brink of shutdown last week, Republican Congressional leaders are now preparing to push America to the edge of default by refusing to increase the nation’s debt limit without first getting Democrats to concede to large spending cuts.
But while the four Republicans in Congressional leadership positions are attempting to hold the increase hostage now, they combined to vote for a debt limit increase 19 times during the presidency of George W. Bush. In doing so, they increased the debt limit by nearly $4 trillion.

mr_basil_seal — July 12, 2011 at 8:24 a.m. ( | suggest removal

*Congressional Republicans this week are side-tracking $1.5 billion in high-speed rail funds already awarded to several states.
In an adroit maneuver, GOP lawmakers propose shifting the high-speed rail dollars to pay for Midwestern disaster relief. The move would help ease the federal deficit..*

It's about time the elected critters think of the welfare of the people before spending our money to fatten corporations pockets. Question is, will they really do it?

ELISI — July 12, 2011 at 8:34 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Oooh! ELISI...where did you find that??? There's hope yet for common sense returning to DC!!!

I wonder what it'll do to MAX and the Clackamas run along with the new bridge across the Willamette!

goldenoldie — July 12, 2011 at 8:36 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Allen — July 12, 2011 at 8:08 a.m.

Have you thought that maybe you are doing exactly what TCB wants? Since he can't post anything here in the basement, that he hopes those of us that do will read, post, and comment on what he does? You give him far too much attention.

ELISI — July 12, 2011 at 8:39 a.m. ( | suggest removal


I found it on the front page in the carousel.

ELISI — July 12, 2011 at 8:40 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Allen, at 8:08 a.m.

Bob Larimer is well on his way to being the Rush Limbaugh of The Columbian's facebook side. He's got an opinion on everything, and has built a cult following of both supporters and detractors. As I think has been observed before, if it wasn't for him not much of anything would get said there. But I'm feeling bad for poor Matt - looks to me like he can't keep up with the bogus names, lack of civility, etc. I think I'm noticing a trend that unless you insult the Columbian staff, you'll probably slide with those comments.

roger — July 12, 2011 at 8:40 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Thanks ELISI!!! I found it. Oooh, I'm doing a Happy Dance with that good ol' Puddin' Face again!!! (scary thought, lol)

Roger: You made me smile with that comparison of TCB and RL.

goldenoldie — July 12, 2011 at 8:43 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Roger, really? *(He's got an opinion on everything)*, like each and everyone of us don't have one ourselves?
The more attention you give him the more he will comment.

ELISI — July 12, 2011 at 8:44 a.m. ( | suggest removal


We're opinionated??? oh yeah, I guess we are.....

goldenoldie — July 12, 2011 at 8:46 a.m. ( | suggest removal

LOL Golden..thought you might like that.. ;]

ELISI — July 12, 2011 at 8:46 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Golden ;] << puddin face

ELISI — July 12, 2011 at 8:47 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Well, I guess it's time for me to send an email to our elected ones!!! Bet you can guess what I'm going to support!!!

goldenoldie — July 12, 2011 at 8:48 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Golden, one more week to go...then I get to see my new grandson!! The oldest has been calling me every night asking, Grammy, what do I need to bring for my stay. He thought he needed to bring his flannel shirts...LOL

ELISI — July 12, 2011 at 8:51 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Allen — July 12, 2011 at 8:08 a.m.

TCB must be slipping - or not reading the right sources:

"leftist/socialist/progressive/humanist/environmentalist idiots"

mr_basil_seal — July 12, 2011 at 8:53 a.m. ( | suggest removal

mr_basil_seal — July 12, 2011 at 8:24 a.m

Just because it should have been resolved then, doesn't mean it shouldn't now.

frobert — July 12, 2011 at 8:58 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Bridge Comes to San Francisco With a Made-in-China Label


At a sprawling manufacturing complex here, hundreds of Chinese laborers are now completing work on the San Francisco-Oakland Bay Bridge.

They "save" 400 million.

Sorta like how moving rail infrastructure monies to emergency aid 'saves' money.....

mr_basil_seal — July 12, 2011 at 8:59 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Basil -

Sometimes it's not just saving money although putting high speed rail on hold will save other taxpayer dollars not yet approved. They are just mentioning the $400 million right now. Besides Basil, it's prioritizing and right now, the folks in the Midwest need all the help they can get. Have you heard of the issues plaguing the Midwest right now? It's not just the fact that many have lost their homes and businesses, but farms have been devastated, wiping out crops ( and mysterious illnesses and diseases are cropping up as well). What good is high speed rail going to do for the people in the Midwest if there's no crops to haul and the disease continues to climb???

HUMAN Infrastructure should be a priority!!!

goldenoldie — July 12, 2011 at 9:04 a.m. ( | suggest removal

SO true Golden!!!!!!!!!!!

The welfare of the people come first!

ELISI — July 12, 2011 at 9:09 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Look people, lets step back and take a look at New Orleans and what happened there and in surrounding areas. Have they rebuilt, are people back in their homes and businesses? Would you eat the fish and shrimp that comes from the gulf after the oil spill?
Now we have the floods in the midwest and tornado's that wiped out our major food supplies for the USA.

When is the spending by our government for whims going to stop and the money used for the welfare of the people of this nation?

Top priorities are:
1. Food
2. Clean water
3. Clean air

Basil, you are one on here that has screamed over and over about the "general welfare of the people"
Well, buddy this the time for the government to step up to the plate and provide that welfare care.

ELISI — July 12, 2011 at 9:18 a.m. ( | suggest removal

GO, the high speed rail they are talking about is the Amtrak line. It doesn't have anything to do with light rail.

It amazed me that pee town is going ahead with the new bridge and LR to Milwaukie, nobody in Milwaukie wants it and they have voted it down before but just like Vancouver, they are shoving it down our throats whether we want it or not.

Also, that new bridge they are building is going to be too low for the cruise boats to go under so the city is paying over a million bucks to "lower" a couple of them for their owners.

So glad I don't live there anymore.

hawkeye — July 12, 2011 at 9:29 a.m. ( | suggest removal

You're right, Hawkeye...but the tumbling blocks do fall and right now, the Feds are looking at major cuts across the board. Give 'em time, Hawk...give 'em time.

And yes, I saw that about the cruise boats and the modifications they must go through in order to pass under the bridge. I'm glad I don't live there anymore as well.

goldenoldie — July 12, 2011 at 9:46 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Hawkeye, might be rail, but it could force the elected critters to also filter the money from LR over too.

All of this needs to be put on hold until the people of the country is taken care of first.

I for one have a key on my keyring that hasn't been cut to unlock anything, a reminder to me daily how lucky I am to have a home to come too and lay my head at night. I skip one meal a day, save the money that it would cost and buy food for the food bank with it or use it to help a neighbor buy their medicine.
There is a lot we all can do to help each other, we pay taxes so the government can run this country, provide police and fire service. All the taxes that is paid in should also be there to provide help for the citizens of this country in times of disaster, if it mean to put on hold, the building of bridges, rail or what have you so be it! Human beings are a resource we can not afford to lose.

This isn't the America I grew up in Hawkeye and I don't think it is the one you did either. When did the priorities of this country became spending to building instead of spending for caring?

ELISI — July 12, 2011 at 9:50 a.m. ( | suggest removal

mr_basil_seal — July 12, 2011 at 9:48 a.m.

Isn't that what democrats and republicans do?

frobert — July 12, 2011 at 9:54 a.m. ( | suggest removal

goldenoldie — July 12, 2011 at 9:04 a.m.

ELISI — July 12, 2011 at 9:18 a.m.

I don't see how you construed that I was against aid for the devastated people of the Midwest (and other areas hit by natural disasters).

What I was pointing out is WHO is advocating cutting INFRASTRUCTURE. Which has long-term negative effects to the economy.

Sorta like the HC bill that saddles we Americans with our $$$ going to for-profit insurance rather than actual HC. Who benefits?

The actually fairly paltry sum the rw wants to pull from transportation infrastructure is a significant part of the federal support for a very viable system. The rw wants to disable that portion of our infrastructure so they are attempting to hold it hostage for the care that should already be working in the Midwest (and other natural disaster areas).

And that paltry amount could easily have come from the Pentagon (or as it used to be called; Dept. of War).

mr_basil_seal — July 12, 2011 at 10:01 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Basil, I knew exactly what you were saying. Don't you see that if we don't get the family and commercial farms back in business soon in the Midwest, that we will have to buy our crops from somewhere else? You speak about the negative effects to the economy...what about all those farms and businesses who are playing the waiting game to get things restored back to normal? What about all the families forced out of jobs with their workplaces destroyed? We're talking about feeding America, Basil. Humans FIRST.

Also...that's not the only cut looming in DC, Basil. Of course some of the money could easily have come from the Pentagon...and it still might. We're talking straight across the board cuts and it's been a long time coming in my opinion.

goldenoldie — July 12, 2011 at 10:10 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Basil, I understood what you said, HUMANS come first Basil.
The "war machine" as you call it, has taken cuts and looking to cut even deeper.
But how much is enough cuts from the "war machine" Basil? Just how much more? Congress already nixed buying new body armor for our troops that would have saved lives, but I guess pockets are more important than a human life.
Rather pathetic and shameful to know people would rather see the money spent on rails and in their pockets than on their fellow man.

ELISI — July 12, 2011 at 10:47 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Hey, if Japan keeps having earthquakes, the USA might just stage a comeback by default. Also, we just might have to do some work on our immigration laws if their country sinks.

hawkeye — July 12, 2011 at 11:12 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Elisi at 9:50 am: I am moved by your story of your symbolic key and daily fast for one meal. What a great gratitude reminder and a simple way to share with others!

Everything good makes a positive difference. Every thought, every gesture.

I may steal those ideas, if you don't mind. :)

manthou — July 12, 2011 at 11:18 a.m. ( | suggest removal

goldenoldie — July 12, 2011 at 9:04 a.m.

ELISI — July 12, 2011 at 9:18 a.m.

goldenoldie — July 12, 2011 at 10:10 a.m

ELISI — July 12, 2011 at 10:47 a.m.

I don't see how you construed that I was against aid for the devastated people of the Midwest (and other areas hit by natural disasters).

What I was pointing out is WHO is advocating cutting INFRASTRUCTURE. Which has long-term negative effects to the economy.

Walk though your justification for that particular cut to that particular part of the budget.

ELISI, especially, you are making an assumption that we need to have those Americans in harm's way to justify the expense of body armor.

And that money could be far more productive if it were put into play here;

H.R. 494:
21st Century Civilian Conservation Corps Act
112th Congress

Golden, we are now ~23rd in infrastructure. A huge portion of that is transportation. How does that fresh Iowa corn get to Safeway or Freddies? Why are we paying (and them making a profit) the Chinese to build part of the San Francisco bridge?

Both of you seem to be wanting to 'prioritize', yet aren't looking at the basis of that prioritization.

mr_basil_seal — July 12, 2011 at 11:19 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Basil, so what if we're 23rd in the world with regards to infrastructure? Do you not get it yet? It's not always about the economic side of things, Basil. Our entire national economic structure has the potential for an all out failure if certain cuts aren't agreed upon by August 2nd. Do you really think it's important to hold onto the high speed rail improvements rather than restoring the Midwest? There has to be a priority right now and existing railroads which are delivering 30 times the amount of containers nationwide than by semi alone are getting the job done...that to me is not a necessity for "Infrastructure," Basil. Faster isn't always better.

The issue is this, Basil. If the farms don't get back on track, there won't be any of that corn you speak of...and the corn of Iowa??? It already utilizes semi trucks for delivery to the warehouses who process them within the parameters of the farm belt. Also Basil, a good percentage of that corn is being rendered for biodiesel. Is that partly what you are concerned with?

So Basil, you would rather concern yourself with WHO is making such decisions...rather than the text of the statement. Why don't you share just WHO you claim is advocating the cuts and why they are so bad? When it comes to cutting high speed rail infrastructure as opposed to maintaining current rail infrastructure in order to help the victims of the worst weather-related disaster of recent history...

why is that considered wrong? Please provide the data I requested. I'm not good with a Texas Two-Step in discussion.

Something about that H.R. 494 concerns me, Basil. Just what are the "other purposes" they speak of? And Basil, if you re-read the text of this house resolution, it is speaking of PREVENTION of future flood, fire, forest pests and diseases. It speaks nothing of restoration of regions such as the Midwest that have been devastated by tornadoes or massive floods.

goldenoldie — July 12, 2011 at 12:05 p.m. ( | suggest removal


I hear you about HUMANS coming first and I agree...But don't you think there just might be another source for funds to assist those in the Midwest without dismantling efforts to rebuild our infrastructure? Would this just be a ploy by the Republicans to show up a Democratic President? I mean there must be other items that can do without funding that can be used for disaster relief can't there?

pdxtech91 — July 12, 2011 at 12:40 p.m. ( | suggest removal

pdxtech91 — July 12, 2011 at 12:40 p.m

Might I suggest something in the foreign aid area?

hawkeye — July 12, 2011 at 12:46 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Pdx, I don't think making trains move faster is an improvement, especially given the fact that train derailments, accidents involving crossings and track failure will inevitably increase the hazard along the routes. I think maintenance and operations should be the main focus to keep the trains moving. Does it really make that much difference if the trains are moving at breakneck speeds?

Hawkeye, they are already making cuts there. Did you hear about the Foreign Military Aid to Pakistan has been suspended by the US?

goldenoldie — July 12, 2011 at 12:58 p.m. ( | suggest removal

manthou — July 12, 2011 at 11:18 a.m

A very wise Pastor of a church I used to attend handed out those keys to the congregation more than 30 yrs ago. My husband I still have and carry ours.

As far as fasting one meal a day, that was taught to me by my parents. A small way to give back to my community, neighbors, friends and family. Kind of like a pay it forward.

By all means if you wish to join in doing so, please do. I wish more would do the same.

ELISI — July 12, 2011 at 12:59 p.m. ( | suggest removal

goldenoldie — July 12, 2011 at 12:05 p.m.

We need the infrastructure to move goods (and people). Infrastructure takes time to plan, develop resources, build. Cutting / gutting the funding sets any of that further behind. Jeeze, the trucking industry factors in the miles of chip seal because it causes higher resistance / lowering fuel mileage. Infrastructure isn't just bridges and light rail.

We used to be #1 (actually, #1 in many categories) in infrastructure. We've moved, as Allen has rightly put it, into spending on being the world's cops. That is money that leaves here, goes into pockets of a few very specialized industries, hardly supports a manufacturing base for the vast majority of Americans, and doesn't (for the most part) recycle through the economy as do local manufacturing, farming, retail jobs. Even 'make-work' jobs like the 21st Century Civilian Conservation Corps jobs would do.

ELISI's point was we need to be spending $$$$$$ on military; I pointed out that, as Allen said, we don't need to be sending that money there, we have much better options. That was the reason for pointing to 21st Century Civilian Conservation Corps bill. Would that bill help right now, right there in the Midwest (or other devastated areas? No. But, as you said, it would help prevent some effects of future disasters while giving all us us the benefits of jobs, works that last, training.

And we have avenues for the immediate disaster relief.

I think you may be conflating four different issues.

We need to continue the planning and building of infrastructure. That is long term.

We need to develop some actual proactive jobs programs. We've had the 'stimulus; we've had the 'tax cuts'. Neither really did /are doing much.

We need to stop attempting to be the world's cops. Training our young adults to be killers, shipping money overseas virtually unaccountably, lining the pockets of a few specialized industries is not building their democracies nor ours.

We need to be delivering aid and support to our people, towns, resources that have been devastated by natural disasters.

It's not always about the economic side of things, Basil. Our entire national economic structure has the potential for an all out failure if certain cuts aren't agreed upon by August 2nd. Do you really think it's important to hold onto the high speed rail improvements rather than restoring the Midwest?

mr_basil_seal — July 12, 2011 at 1 p.m. ( | suggest removal

As far as infrastructure goes, I have to tell you I just (last month) drove from Virginia to Battle Ground and the Interstate Freeways were the worst I have ever seen. A lot of them had horrible potholes and terrible ruts. Some of them were reduced to one lane and so narrow that semi trucks had to reduce speed to 25mph.

The freeways are very important and need to be in the best shape possible.

hawkeye — July 12, 2011 at 1:07 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Oh for Pete's sake!!! Basil, we HAVE the infrastructure in place already. You're speaking to a family member of several relatives who have worked for Union Pacific since early 20th who just recently retired two years ago as a line repairman. The current rail system needs to be maintained...THAT's all. Making the trains go faster isn't going to improve the mobility of transport, sir. In fact, it is going to put more lives at risk, especially when hazardous cargo is transported. The trains that have derailed...the trains who have collided with private vehicles...the trains which have gone head on with each other...just what in the blue blazes do you think will happen when the trains are moving at breakneck speeds and these issues will happen?? It's a damned gimmick to try and convince the American People that this is what we need...and it's a gimmick at TAXPAYERS' expense.

I'm sorry Basil, but your philosophy regarding high speed rail is just about equal to the philosophy of those supporting CRC, claiming it will make traffic move better into the core of Portland and that more people will accept it as the right almost $8 billion dollars of taxpayer/commuter costs later.

Good grief!!!

goldenoldie — July 12, 2011 at 1:09 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Allen — July 12, 2011 at 12:01 p.m

I can not and will not argue with you on what you said. America has got to stop being the world cops.

But since our troops are in harms way at the time, we must protect them, after all they are doing a job of protecting us.
Do you know the old saying Allen, "don't cut of the hand that feeds you"??

Congress nixed the body armor at a cost of I believe were $8,000 each, we should have never gone in the middle of Libya, wonder just how much that is costing us per day. They have nixed helicopters, and other aircraft. They have cut tuition assistance for schooling for the military, they have cut paying for clothing, now when entering the military they have to pay for all of their clothing from day one. Just to name a few off the top of my head Allen.

Why can't they cut foreign aid? Specially to those countries that have turned their backs on us??

ELISI — July 12, 2011 at 1:12 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Basil @1 pm, you have a way trying to make a person sound like a fool but honestly know you took my comment out of context by separating it from the rest of my statement. You know all too well that I was referring to the fact that certain financial endeavors need to be prioritized and that the priority of the high speed rails is lower than that of helping to restore the heart of America. We HAVE the rails and they must be maintained. High Speed rails should be placed on hold in order for our country to continue to function...if at all! You as the economics expert should also know through your studies you continually pursue, that the national disaster fund has reached monumental proportions this year with the Joplin disaster as well as the major flooding and other tornado disasters. Should we suffer a hurricane disaster or a major earthquake right now in the US...the funds just might not be there to help rebuild.

goldenoldie — July 12, 2011 at 1:17 p.m. ( | suggest removal

pdxtech91 — July 12, 2011 at 12:40 p.m.

I didn't say dismantle the funding, just put it on the back burner until our economy, our farms and businesses are back in full production again.

Do I think it's a play by the Rep? No, I think they are doing what is needed to help the people of this country to survive.
Without our farms and ranches, where do you think your food supply will come from?
The midwest is know as the bread basket of the world for a reason.
Have you ever traveled in the midwest or in the south pdx?

ELISI — July 12, 2011 at 1:18 p.m. ( | suggest removal

mr_basil_seal — July 12, 2011 at 1 p.m

Now you are over stepping your boundaries, putting words in my mouth that I didn't say.

I never said to pump money into the military, but we need to fund the military with equipment that will save their lives when needed! Good grief man, pull your head out of your backside, take a breath, step off that damn pedestal you and your ilk are on and see things in the real world. Very clear you have never served this country in the military and have had to put up with what they do daily. I'd like to see your jackass pounding the ground in Iraq for one day then see how you feel then.
People like you are shameful to this country.

ELISI — July 12, 2011 at 1:24 p.m. ( | suggest removal

goldenoldie — July 12, 2011 at 1:09 p.m.

"You know all too well that I was referring to the fact that certain financial endeavors need to be prioritized and that the priority of the high speed rails is lower than that of helping to restore the heart of America."

Your concerns about HS rail and safety are part and parcel with basic infrastructure & maintenance.

And both, or as I noted above all four issues are different in aspect, time frame.

We also need to be aware (yes, again) that much of what we need to be doing, and are not now, is going to be less a choice and more of a forced upon us decision due to our dependence on foreign oil, peak oil, and anthropogenic climate change.

And, sorry to bring it back to economics, but virtually every study out there is showing that delaying any action on those three will only cost us more $$$$ (and health, weather events, infrastructure problems) later. And that 'later' is coming sooner.

mr_basil_seal — July 12, 2011 at 1:45 p.m. ( | suggest removal

"...but virtually every study out there is showing that delaying any action on those three will only cost us more $$$$..."

And who supports those studies, Basil? That's nothing but a bunch of hyperdriven bunk.

As far as HS Rail...let's talk about OUR current project from Canada to Vancouver. So...knowing the hillside in Felida is constantly on the move, sliding across the tracks, closing the line just about every winter and spring...that changing them to high speed will improve the efficiency of the line?


Try again, Basil.

goldenoldie — July 12, 2011 at 1:51 p.m. ( | suggest removal

ELISI — July 12, 2011 at 1:24 p.m.

"we need to fund the military with equipment that will save their lives when needed!"

and the point is that we don't need to be there.

" Very clear you have never served this country in the military and have had to put up with what they do daily"

Perhaps you don't know the story of Howard Zinn?

He became a pacifist AFTER serving as a bombardier in Europe during WWII.

So, you might want to rethink making claims and personal attacks when you have no idea how you could prove them.

Personal attacks, which run counter to the guidelines for the forum and have nothing to do with the discussion.

mr_basil_seal — July 12, 2011 at 1:55 p.m. ( | suggest removal

"And who supports those studies, Basil? That's nothing but a bunch of hyperdriven bunk."

Don't be a Jon.
Support your claim.

mr_basil_seal — July 12, 2011 at 1:56 p.m. ( | suggest removal

EHNK! Strike one, Basil. You can implement fuel-efficient trains no matter what speed the rails are moving and there are already more efficient transport trucks on the highways, so the ACG comments are out.

Number 3 didn't open.

Number 4...same argument as far as I'm concerned with 1 and 2.

goldenoldie — July 12, 2011 at 2:17 p.m. ( | suggest removal

mr_basil_seal — July 12, 2011 at 1:55 p.m.

1. But we ARE there now Basil
2. I don't give a good damn who Howard Zinn is. I wasn't talking about him Basil I was of you.
Have you served in the military of this country Basil? Been in war Basil? Have you pounded the ground, shot a gun at another human to save yourself or a battle buddy Basil? If you haven't been there done that you have no idea.
3. Talk about personal attacks Basil, when one picks and dips and twists what others have to say.. is just as guilty is as guilty does.
Like I said crawl off that pedestal..

ELISI — July 12, 2011 at 2:18 p.m. ( | suggest removal

typo...that should be ACC. All done playing for now, Basil. It's been....interesting! I've got a life outside the C so I'm outta here. See ya!

goldenoldie — July 12, 2011 at 2:20 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Kinda proves my point; need better infrastructure.

As does the NPR LaHood interview:" LAHOOD: Well, of course they would. And we're right at the place, Scott, where the country was at when Eisenhower signed the interstate bill. Not all the lines were on the map and America wasn't connected. Fifty years later, America is connected by the interstate."

And the CATO report is basically saying 'we can't have it because we don't have it'. RE LaHood above.

And none of those address the compelling (in both senses) reasons of ACC, peak oil, and dependence on foreign oil.

Again, you are putting a focus on one part of an overall issue of building and maintaining a suitable American infrastructure.

mr_basil_seal — July 12, 2011 at 2:20 p.m. ( | suggest removal

ELISI — July 12, 2011 at 2:18 p.m

1- "The aide said that guys like me were ''in what we call the reality-based community,'' which he defined as people who ''believe that solutions emerge from your judicious study of discernible reality.'' I nodded and murmured something about enlightenment principles and empiricism. He cut me off. ''That's not the way the world really works anymore,'' he continued. ''We're an empire now, and when we act, we create our own reality. And while you're studying that reality -- judiciously, as you will -- we'll act again, creating other new realities, which you can study too, and that's how things will sort out. We're history's actors . . . and you, all of you, will be left to just study what we do.''

Who besides guys like me are part of the reality-based community? Many of the other elected officials in Washington, it would seem. A group of Democratic and Republican members of Congress were called in to discuss Iraq sometime before the October 2002 vote authorizing Bush to move forward. A Republican senator recently told Time Magazine that the president walked in and said: ''Look, I want your vote. I'm not going to debate it with you.'' When one of the senators began to ask a question, Bush snapped, ''Look, I'm not going to debate it with you.''"

2 - Please tell us for my and the C staff edification what that has do do with the discussion. Pure and simple personal attack.

3- and perhaps we need some exegesis on the "..picks and dips and twists..".

mr_basil_seal — July 12, 2011 at 2:26 p.m. ( | suggest removal

goldenoldie — July 12, 2011 at 2:17 p.m.

None of which supports your:"And who supports those studies, Basil? That's nothing but a bunch of hyperdriven bunk."

mr_basil_seal — July 12, 2011 at 2:28 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Well Basil, this is where I will end my discussion with you. It is obvious you are only looking for what you seek and I am as well. I do note that on the link you just quoted, you didn't even take mention to my point that Iowa is the heart of the biodiesel industry and that corn is transported by both methods, train and truck. Instead, you had to point out your emphasis to your argument, ignoring my point completely. Typical of course by you so I grant you that ignorance of trying to understand my statement by you. It is also obvious we will not come to an agreement when it comes to the funding for high speed rail and putting it aside in order to regain what is needed and that is helping the people, not the industry and the mega corporations who would benefit by transforming the rail system.

And finally, it is obvious in your statement as opposed to mine that the suitable American infrastructure we both perceive in are two separate structures. You believe in making the US a better nation than the rest of the world...sort of that New World Order tendency in your argument. I believe in making the US a more liveable country to help families get back on their feet once again and get national production back on track before going the next step with high-speed rail.

So with me ending my discussion with you...I bid you Good Day, Basil.

goldenoldie — July 12, 2011 at 2:35 p.m. ( | suggest removal

final note...

Basil, you still haven't proven anything to me. The issue of ACC is still based on data collection and interpretation of the studies. It's still hyper-driven bunk as far as I'm concerned.

goldenoldie — July 12, 2011 at 2:41 p.m. ( | suggest removal

As I said Basil, if you haven't been there, done that, you have no idea what so ever what our troops need in order to survive in war. No idea what the military needs to keep a strong defense for this country.

I have said this many times and still say it...

If you can't stand up along side our military, then please stand in from of them on a battle field.

I challenge you Basil, to take the time and visit the VA hospitals across this country, take the time to talk to the troops or even volunteer at one, might open your eyes. Do we really want to cut funds to the military which we all know if more gets cut, our troops will suffer not only on the battle field with their lives, but also medical wise? Do we really have to go back to Vietnam time and treat our troops like they were then?
Oh and Basil, ask your precious potus why he hasn't brought our troops home like he promised..

Now I'm done trying to reason with someone that refuses to see the full circle of things.

ELISI — July 12, 2011 at 2:57 p.m. ( | suggest removal

What do y'all think will come of the Rupert Murdoch media scandal? Do you think his company phone tapping shenanigans happened to politicians in the USA, too? Will his FOX Broadcasting and the Wall Street Journal be tarnished or come under scrutiny, as well?

The ethical journalists and staff he fired from the WSJ will be hungry to tell their sides of the story.

I saw today that his News Corp stocks are plummeting over the phone tapping scandal in the UK and that he bought back $5 billion his own stock in the hopes of keeping it from falling further.

I think this issue will be huge, huge, gargantuan before it is all over.

It so emphasizes the importance of journalistic ethics and integrity and what can happen when one powerful person has a monopoly on news media.

manthou — July 12, 2011 at 3:32 p.m. ( | suggest removal


I think if you look at what WA has going to do with the High Speed Rail money is exactly what you think they should do with it. For WA it should be called high(er) speed rail. Improved tracks, sidings, improvements to the rail yard at the Port and 2 new trains.

Nothing that I have read said any of this money will go to fund HR 494. I have just read that in this case for disaster relief money the funds need to be cut from somewhere else and the House Majority chose Rail funds, which were cut about $1.7Bil already in April.

HR 494 is a good cause but I think the 1st CCC was disbanded when the economy in the 40s took off with Lend-Lease then the war. Maybe we should go back to it. Get off a "war" economy and think more domestically.

Hawkeye...Foreign Aid, GOOD START...BTW Recently I came back on HWY70 through Kansas and I agree it was a mess. Mostly 1 lane in each direction and a JayBird State Patrol at the beginning and end of each 10 to 20 mile construction zone. Everyone told me I should be able to "fly" through the area because it was flat, straight and boring. WRONG!

pdxtech91 — July 12, 2011 at 3:33 p.m. ( | suggest removal


About Murdock, I think they are looking at what may have happened in the US. I know the news mentioned possible tapped phones of 9/11 victims. I don't know if they will pin anything on FOX. It just seems that British Journalism seem to be much more tabloid and "yellow" than in the US(No Page 6 girls here.)Well maybe except for Murdock's NY paper.

Yeah, the stock buy back was interesting to keep the stock price up. It will also be interesting if, like you said, any WSJ people come forward.

I thought it was interesting that he left Warren Buffet's retreat early last weekend in Sun Valley to take control of the matter personally.

pdxtech91 — July 12, 2011 at 3:48 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Elisi @ 8:44a.m.

OK - I stand corrected - most of the basement have opinions on a wide range of topics.

Still, I think it's a good idea to encourage Bob to continue what he does where he's at now. I'd rarely check the facebook comments if it wasn't for all the responses he gets. But, being facebook ignorant, there's something that puzzles me. A lot of the people posting there have somewhere else in their profile. Are those commenters even from this area?

roger — July 12, 2011 at 3:55 p.m. ( | suggest removal

ELISI — July 12, 2011 at 2:57 p.m.

Again, you have no idea of my experience. Including work at VA, with vets (btw, yes - as far back as '68)

But that isn't the point. You want to make it a personal attack with the simple fact is is that your argument that we need to protect our troops from harms's way and thus we need to fully fund the military doesn't hold water.

There's that 'two engines' thing.

There's that 'why did we start' issue (that was the point about Bush/Rove claiming 'reality based' was bad since it interfered with their empire building)

There's that issue with us having 700+ overseas military bases

There's that issue of the percentage of GDP that goes to military budget.

There's that issue of us not funding adequately the care and treatment of vets. Or helping them transition fully back to civilian life.

mr_basil_seal — July 12, 2011 at 4:35 p.m. ( | suggest removal

goldenoldie — July 12, 2011 at 2:41 p.m.

*It's still hyper-driven bunk as far as I'm concerned.*

Fortunately that is an attitude that is not only shrinking , but belied by the list of countries working to avoid it, the scientists' research that keeps getting replicated, businesses that work to help, and even the military planning around its effects.

And while it slides a bit into the 'arguing from authority', one would have to ask what sources of information informed your thinking?

mr_basil_seal — July 12, 2011 at 4:41 p.m. ( | suggest removal

roger — July 12, 2011 at 8:40 a.m.

Minor update, there are now FBers commenting on the Bob&Lew; show....

mr_basil_seal — July 12, 2011 at 4:45 p.m. ( | suggest removal

pdxtech91 — July 12, 2011 at 3:33 p.m.

*Get off a "war" economy and think more domestically.*

+1, though we could also look at our hegemonic foreign affairs and aid policies and support humanitarianism.

mr_basil_seal — July 12, 2011 at 4:55 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Basil, I used to get upset that Bobbo was allowed to spout off like this. Makes the whole county look bad. If they only allow his ilk to comment, I thought the outside world would think we are all like him.
But I finally realized: let him. The one who looks totally ridiculous after a while is him. Nice exposure of lunatic thinking. And the one who gets laughed at now, and on a more regular basis. Good Good. Effect achieved without any effort.

luvithere — July 12, 2011 at 6:22 p.m. ( | suggest removal

I need to look up what **hegemonic** means

pdxtech91 — July 12, 2011 at 6:38 p.m. ( | suggest removal

luvithere @ 6:22 PM: As the ol' saying goes:

You don't have to hang a bell on a fool.


manthou — July 12, 2011 at 7:07 p.m. ( | suggest removal

ELISI and Mr. Basil,

As a retired Army careerist and an interested third party to your conversations on the military, please allow me to make the observation that you're both arguing for the same thing - just focusing on different aspects.

Both of you agree that we're involved in conflicts where we have no business. And both agree that we need to watch and make sure no one tries to cut funding for the Wounded Warrior programs, both while still in the service and after out.

Where you differ is on what you call supporting the troops. Basil says the best support we could provide is to get them out of there - this is something many of the soldiers I know agree with. Most have been on an average of 3 Iraq AND 2 Afghanistan deployments before the age of 30. That's not a great way to spend what should be some of the best years of your life. Sure, they all volunteered, but.... ELISI meanwhile says that they're there, and we need to make sure they're provided the best protective equipment available. Sending poorly armored vehicles to Iraq, even though the danger presented by IEDs was well known, was wrong. And many soldiers send home for commercial body armor because they consider it lighter and better at stopping than the service issued vests. Two of many examples that suggest we could do better.

You're both right. Thanks for caring.

roger — July 12, 2011 at 7:08 p.m. ( | suggest removal


I think he's saying we want to be the big dog that's taking the bone away from the others....

roger — July 12, 2011 at 7:13 p.m. ( | suggest removal

roger: You have excellent mediation skills!

manthou — July 12, 2011 at 7:18 p.m. ( | suggest removal

And a good command of vocabulary!

manthou — July 12, 2011 at 7:20 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Yes Roger, very well said. And true.

luvithere — July 12, 2011 at 7:20 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Thank you roger and Allen for seeing the full circle.

roger, from what I have been told by many vets, is that the issued body armor breaks down rather quickly cause of body heat and the heat from the weather, making them virtually useless.
The military wanted to buy what is called dragon skin and doesn't deteriorate like what they use now.

ELISI — July 12, 2011 at 8:01 p.m. ( | suggest removal


OK got it now thanks...

I'm still trying to think of a response for Basil..I agree with him but I think we could do more (or do I mean less?) abroad. I think we can still be the 800lb gorilla but I don't think we need to be in the room.

pdxtech91 — July 12, 2011 at 8:45 p.m. ( | suggest removal

luvithere — July 12, 2011 at 6:22 p.m.

Although I don't agree with bobs position on most things, lets look at him objectively.

Common terms from bob, libtard, lamestream media, Hussein Obama.

Common terms from posters here, teabagger, Faux Noise, Dubya Bush.

bob and some posters here, also misstate others positions, call opposing candidates stupid, make personal attacks on those that disagree with them and get their "facts" from political blogs.

A solid conclusion would be that some liberals here are the same as bob, and they are the ones insisting bob shouldn't be allowed to post.

I am sure someone will chime in and say it is different because... But that only further proves my point.

frobert — July 12, 2011 at 9:11 p.m. ( | suggest removal

frobert — July 12, 2011 at 9:11 p.m.

Not to prove your point but I enjoy watching the Bobbo and Lew show. It's amazing to watch how their minds work or lack of work.

I have to disagree on "teabagger", they actually called themselves that in the beginning.

Also "Dubya Bush" seems fair because how else would you separate him from daddy Bush?

And "Faux noise"? Isn't that how they spell it? Regardless, it might be a moot point since they might not be long for this world soon, Rupert might just lose everything over his creditability problems.

hawkeye — July 12, 2011 at 10:27 p.m. ( | suggest removal

speaking of Rupert - this really has me PO'd!

This is the same method used by B of A, Exxon, GE, and all the major players - get a one-room office with 200 others in the Caymans, run all of your profits through there and then collect "refunds" and "rebates" from the US taxpayer! I am so sick and tired of hearing about our "high 35% corporate tax". No one seems to be paying it. I had recently heard that the average corporate effective tax is about 16%. That's more than mine, and I am lower middle-class!

Mrs_T — July 12, 2011 at 11 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Since Murdoch owns both the Dow Jones and the Wall Street Journal, wonder how he has had his slimy fingers in wire-tapping for personal gain or financial failures of those he does not agree with. He certainly has the people in all of the right places, just as he did with Scottland Yard and the royal family!

Mrs_T — July 12, 2011 at 11:13 p.m. ( | suggest removal


I have to agree with with Clinton on the tax rate.

Here is a link, that shows small business, big business and personal rates.

ELISI — July 12, 2011 at 11:25 p.m. ( | suggest removal

roger — July 12, 2011 at 7:08 p.m

I don't think you can read anything in my post against troops having the best possible equipment.

But, there is a vast gap between buying everything the military asks for and determining if they are even doing the right job.

And they aren't.

mr_basil_seal — July 12, 2011 at 11:33 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Allen — July 12, 2011 at 7:33 p.m.

*you need to answer that question.*

Let's see...

R. Limbaugh

D. Rumsfeld

B. Obama

H. Clinton

Now, why is it important you know?

mr_basil_seal — July 12, 2011 at 11:39 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Elisi - the rate is not reflective of what is being paid. The corporation would pay that rate, if it had profits in that bracket. Then, you subtract all of their investment credits, etc. What angers me, is the ability of these major players to off-shore their profitable arms and claim there losses here in the US to obtain refunds here due to there special tax credits. This is exactly what BofA and Murdoch are doing. It has nothing to do with rates anymore. The table has become useless!

Mrs_T — July 12, 2011 at 11:44 p.m. ( | suggest removal

hawkeye — July 12, 2011 at 10:27 p.m.

" It's amazing to watch how their minds work or lack of work."

There are some liberals on this side with no more original thought than bob and lew.

frobert — July 12, 2011 at 11:53 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Mrs_T, I agree. Maybe the government should fine the heck out of them if found them doing that. Or they run the risk of losing their business license...something drastic..

It seems to me that they'd rather go after the small business than to deal with and pull these big corporations in line.

ELISI — July 12, 2011 at 11:55 p.m. ( | suggest removal

What happened to the article on the Farrell House from Ray Legendre? It just disappeared....I would like to know what happened...

Striker991 — July 13, 2011 at 12:20 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Mrs_T — July 12, 2011 at 11:13 p.m.

Dailymail as a source, do you also believe their stories about the aliens among us?

frobert — July 13, 2011 at 12:26 a.m. ( | suggest removal

"It seems to me that they'd rather go after the small business than to deal with and pull these big corporations in line."

I don't know whether the gov prefers to go after small or large businesses, but I can tell you this as the owner of a small business, any letter from the IRS or Wa Dept of Revenue gets opened first and nervously. I've got to believe I'm no different than most small business owners and fear these folks much more than a large corp would. The resources required to save a small business from these people in the event of an tax mistake, the interest and penalty can kill you. With no attornies on staff, that expense alone might put you under. Rather than fight them, cutting a deal might be less expensive-right or wrong. I have a CPA do the taxes, but even so, if the mistake is her's, obviously I still have to cough up the additional taxes. In this economy, staying afloat is all one can hope for. An unforeseen tax bill can really hurt you. While small businesses may not be the gov's prefered target, we're a much easier one.

mrd — July 13, 2011 at 7:08 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Mrs T: Glad to see you join back in with your ol' Forum cronies! Thanks for bringing up the Murdoch tax issue! I posted something yesterday about this growing controversy at 3:32 PM.

It shines a light on so many problems: the wealthiest among us not paying their fair share of taxes; the problems with media monopolies; ethics in journalism.

I think the investigation will include News Corp's activities in the US and I predict it will uncover similar tactics that were used in the UK.

manthou — July 13, 2011 at 7:23 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Striker991@ 12:20 am: That article is still online. You just have to search for it:

manthou — July 13, 2011 at 7:32 a.m. ( | suggest removal

frobert — July 12, 2011 at 9:11 p.m. , et al;=01J_d278mCc

mr_basil_seal — July 13, 2011 at 8:14 a.m. ( | suggest removal

mr_basil_seal — July 13, 2011 at 8:14 a.m.

My point was that I support free speech, even if I don't agree, I was talking about people like bob and allen who say exactly the same things and than insist the other shouldn't be allowed to speak.

frobert — July 13, 2011 at 8:35 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Allen — July 13, 2011 at 5:52 a.m.

Your link doesn't contain the news article you claim.

frobert — July 13, 2011 at 8:38 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Alleycat, Boise appeared to have the biggest hit so far. I'm wondering if the jet stream and issues at Hanford might have had something to do with that one. The EPA monitors haven't been functioning according to their website since the higher reading. Anyhow, here's a link you might want to keep handy:

goldenoldie — July 13, 2011 at 8:50 a.m. ( | suggest removal

alleycat — July 13, 2011 at 8:19 a.m.

Thanks for the link.


And as linked to in the oregonlive link

mr_basil_seal — July 13, 2011 at 8:51 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Also Alleycat, here's another link which explains radioactive iodine levels and how to counter the problem to prevent issues like thyroid cancer in future years by youngsters who have been exposed to it. Bear in's wikipedia:

goldenoldie — July 13, 2011 at 8:54 a.m. ( | suggest removal

frobert — July 13, 2011 at 8:38 a.m

Try this one:
Includes graphic with data

mr_basil_seal — July 13, 2011 at 8:57 a.m. ( | suggest removal

mr_basil_seal — July 13, 2011 at 8:57 a.m.
I've read it thank you.

frobert — July 13, 2011 at 9:04 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Hey cat, do you read everything in the article or do you read just a little and go off half-cocked and pound on the keyboard and scream at us?

About 3/4 of the way down in the article were these sentences:

"Since Iodine 131 has a very short half-life of approximately eight days, the levels seen in rainwater were expected to be relatively short in duration."

State health agencies added that they constantly monitored public drinking water sources and never found levels even approaching the unhealthy range."

If you believe the first part of the story, you have to believe "the rest of the story".

hawkeye — July 13, 2011 at 9:13 a.m. ( | suggest removal

"Something is wrong with our DNA.... It is hard to accept that we are that stupid"

I'd look for a simpler reason.....

mr_basil_seal — July 13, 2011 at 9:42 a.m. ( | suggest removal


That's why I still say if we have something that needs to be disposed of like radioactive waste, we hire SpaceX to load it in a rocket and shoot it to the sun. Instant disposal.

hawkeye — July 13, 2011 at 9:54 a.m. ( | suggest removal

alleycat — July 13, 2011 at 10:52 a.m

Japanese cars, Levis made in China, Maytag made in Mexico, Nike made in Thailand. Blame it on Corporate America if you want to but they can't sell if we don't buy.

frobert — July 13, 2011 at 11:04 a.m. ( | suggest removal

I just read the article about raising the Debt Limit:

According to one of my favorite FB Commentators, there is no crisis. It's an illusion, a conspiracy, a ploy. There is all kinds of money available for what ever socialist program we want, Healthcare, bridges, lightrail. The money is there. He even has a link to proves it:​s/article/federal-tax-reve​nues-have-exceeded-inter

I swear, reading his posts lately, Obama is just not liberal enough for him.

pdxtech91 — July 13, 2011 at 11:15 a.m. ( | suggest removal

hawkeye — July 13, 2011 at 9:54 a.m.

Umm, 'off- trajectory ',......?

mr_basil_seal — July 13, 2011 at 11:24 a.m. ( | suggest removal

pdxtech91 — July 13, 2011 at 11:15 a.m.

"According to one of my favorite FB Commentators.... He even has a link to proves it:

Wow, usually he just ipse dixits and then complains that 'no source will be good enough' ......

Good catch, pdxtech91 and I like your commentary (if we were on FB I could 'like' it....).

mr_basil_seal — July 13, 2011 at 11:43 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Just noticed the CNS author Bob L cites has written the same article about a half dozen times in the last week or so......

Yet, in March his commentary was 180 degrees opposite ( warning, popup ridden site:

mr_basil_seal — July 13, 2011 at 11:51 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Well we all know about bobbo, but his referal is from CNS. CNS is "Cybercast News Service" which is a division of MRC which is the "Media Research Center" of Alexandria Virginia. Now remember, they have friends like Ann Coulter and Rush Limbaugh.

Rush Limbaugh said this;
"I don’t think there’s anybody, other than Brent Bozell, who spends more time giving examples of press bias than I do…"

"Brent Bozell and the MRC provide a most precious commodity - a quest for the truth. I can't possibly expose every example of bias and error that emanates from the national mainstream media, but Bozell and his group come as close as anyone can. MRC is a vital national interest."

"They are as diligent as they can be in uprooting and discovering examples - not just bias, but journalistic malpractice."

And this from Brit Hume from Fox (it's really the news).

Brit Hume, Fox News Channel
"American conservatives have complained for years that the news media and, in particular, the broadcast TV networks, consistently labeled conservative public figures as such, but rarely do so with liberals. Now the Conservative Media Research center has run some numbers to make that case.

Here's what the center says it found after reviewing the ABC, CBS and NBC evening newscasts from 1997 through 2001. Conservatives were so labeled 997 times, while the liberal label was applied only 247 times. That's an 80 percent to 20 percent differential, with the biggest gap between national political candidates, who the center says were labeled liberal only four times to conservatives, who were so identified 96 times."

So, we all know they can be trusted for the "truth".

hawkeye — July 13, 2011 at 12:24 p.m. ( | suggest removal

hawkeye — July 13, 2011 at 12:24 p.m.

Somewhat valid point, but we also need to recognize that more conservatives self-identify as conservative than liberals do.

And, as always, need to look for evidence of cherrypicking date range.

And, without the context of the individual stories, we could also be looking at stories about conservatives; eg, more interviews with Grover Norquist than Bernie Sanders.

Also see:
"Republicans outnumbered Democrats by more than 3 to 2 (61 percent to 38 percent). A majority of Republican sources when the GOP controls the White House and Congress may not be surprising, but Republicans held a similar though slightly smaller edge (57 percent to 42 percent) in 1993, when Clinton was president and Democrats controlled both houses of Congress. And a lively race for the Democratic presidential nomination was beginning to heat up at the time of the 2003 study."

What would also be interesting to research:
Does R. Maddow have more cons than B. O'Reilly have libs for hard news interviews (pick other combinations as one wishes)

Does any of the CNS type study hold true outside of the 'big 3' or on other shows (Meet the Press, etc)

mr_basil_seal — July 13, 2011 at 1:06 p.m. ( | suggest removal need to cut down on the caffeine, dear

you might also consider getting some fresh air....

DeeLittle — July 13, 2011 at 1:26 p.m. ( | suggest removal

alleycat — July 13, 2011 at 12:53 p.m.

I keep hearing from Liberals about the evil Koch brothers, and how their agenda that must be stopped.

A little research shows that they have championed such causes as
oppose war, oppose the Patriot act, oppose the war on drugs, support gay marriage.

They also have donated hundreds of millions to causes like, Stem cell research,Cancer research and the Arts.

This is the evil agenda that the liberals say we must stop now.

frobert — July 13, 2011 at 2:05 p.m. ( | suggest removal

alleycat — July 13, 2011 at 2:13 p.m.

I am not disagreeing that Process is rotten, I am asking why liberals have chosen to vilify the Koch brothers, There are definitely people more deserving of it. There is no end to websites calling for people to boycott U.S. made products because the companies are owned by them.

frobert — July 13, 2011 at 2:32 p.m. ( | suggest removal

frobert — July 13, 2011 at 2:32 p.m

Yes, there is much money flowing from the Koch's to many worthwhile causes (causes that r and l both would agree are worthy and in need of).

But the point usually made is the quantity going to r. politics and specifically to the particular causes there. What other funding balances their $$ input / influence ?

There is also the issue of setting up fronts to funnel money in.

mr_basil_seal — July 13, 2011 at 2:43 p.m. ( | suggest removal

mr_basil_seal — July 13, 2011 at 2:43 p.m.

If you check out the Koch foundation, the amount they donate to political causes is pretty insignificant when compared with their philanthropical donations. What it comes down to is some liberals would rather see all those living wage, paper company jobs leave the country, and all of their philantropic works end then to see a relatively small amount of money donated to their opposition.

frobert — July 13, 2011 at 2:53 p.m. ( | suggest removal


It might be the same reason the otherside likes to vilify George Soros.

pdxtech91 — July 13, 2011 at 3:37 p.m. ( | suggest removal

alleycat — July 13, 2011 at 2:44 p.m

OK bub, now on this we agree!

hawkeye — July 13, 2011 at 3:44 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Oh great...JUUUUUST great. Now with the upcoming crossing project looming in our future which includes a multi-level parking garage taking up the empty space across from Clark College...

Now they're going to put in a Baseball Stadium at Clark to boot??? Which buildings will have to be torn down this time? And which families will get the boot out of their homes???

What are you trying to do??? Mimic the Jeld-Wen Stadium traffic crunch here in our city???

City and County Officials, that's not what I'd determine as making our city a better place. In fact, I think you are making a HUGE mistake placing it at Clark College.

goldenoldie — July 13, 2011 at 4:28 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Putting the LR in and the stadium, sure looks like Vancouver is going to start looking like a mini Portland!

That is what Pollard, when he was in office was working towards.

Instead of a fresh governing body we voted for, we have the same old same old.

ELISI — July 13, 2011 at 5:30 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Alleycat, have you been in the area of Clark College recently??? There's no room on campus. Across the street on McLoughlin is Hudson's Bay High School with their track field. Across from Clark on Ft Vancouver Way is additional parking, Marshall Center, an apartment complex, the VA, more college classrooms, a community park and a large field. The large field will house the parking garage and the light rail terminal. To the north of Clark College is Central Park and to the immediate east side of the college is a residential area and the Washington State School for the Blind. Even if they took out the track field, there wouldn't be enough for a complete stadium. It's like fitting too many sardines in a sardine can.

And that taxation without representation??? Oh you better believe I'll be screaming about that one if we don't get a chance to vote on the folly of a few.

goldenoldie — July 13, 2011 at 6:06 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Yeah, ELISI...if I didn't know better, I'd think Royce Pollard is still running things in city government. Amazing that he's also on the Board of Trustees with Jack Burkman at Clark as well. It's just too convenient and slipshod for the promoters of the CRC (Pollard namely) to be just about ready to get the ball rolling...even designating a convenient parking garage and an endpoint for light rail near the College...then suddenly getting the interests of a certain baseball team to want to move to Vancouver. Mighty convenient indeed...and it stinks like a skunk!!!

It's all too obvious to me, ELISI.

Crooked as a Three-Dollar Bill I tell ya! Special interests galore here.

goldenoldie — July 13, 2011 at 6:16 p.m. ( | suggest removal


There is a baseball diamond at Clark College already. The plan is to refurbish, expand seating, lighting and whatever else they need to do. CC will be using the stadium also since they are bringing back their baseball program.

I am a baseball fan and look forward to getting my fix. Single A ball is not the best but besides AAA ball (which we'll never see) there is nothing else in the NW.

I don't agree on the funding I think CC and the team should be covering most of the costs. I can see why movie goers are complaining about the 5% charge on tickets. But I wonder where their outrage was when they started charging $10 to $14 for the crap that passes for Hollywood Movies these days.

Besides the diamond on Clark College there is also Propstra Stadium next to Hudson Bay HS that can be reburb'd. Location is not the issue. Funding is.

pdxtech91 — July 13, 2011 at 7:48 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Wow, great posts today! Thanks all. I'll have to check in more often!

alleycat - we at our house have been calling this form of gov't in the USA a plutocracy for several years! Seem to fit it best!

OH MY GOSH! I tried to link to the CitiGroup memo from 2006 that referenced the plutocracy and it seems to have been removed from EVERYWHERE on the web. My son was working on his Masters at the time at UW, and had sent me a link to the memo that they were reviewing in Global Economics classes. All that you seem to be able to pull up is that Citigroup has had it removed by request!

See where we are?

Mrs_T — July 13, 2011 at 8:04 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Pdx, that baseball diamond won't fit a stadium without taking out the parking lots and tennis courts. So now we should support such an endeavor by cutting out other sports which are offered classes at Clark to fulfill degree requirements because a few people want to watch MINOR LEAGUE baseball??? If they want to see baseball so badly, they can go to the new complex on 78th Street that's being developed as we speak. And pdx, location has a lot to do with the problem. Funding just metastasizes the entire deal. Maybe you like the idea of living life as an undersized sardine in an overfilled sardine can but I sure as heck don't and will not support such a deal. There's other locations which could support a baseball stadium AND could have direct access with BRT or even...should I say it...light rail right up to the location. This is the folly of a select few and they expect us all to support it.

Poor planning has all but ruined our county so far. Maybe you'd like to dig that last shovelful of dirt to bury our county the rest of the way but I sure as heck wouldn't, pdx.

goldenoldie — July 13, 2011 at 8:35 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Someone has sold us a bill of goods that we can get 2500 or more people per game to see something that barely qualifies as pro baseball. Perhaps for a while, but when the thrill wears off I don't see it. AAA ball couldn't make it in this area; doesn't that send a message?

The Blazers only pack them in when winning. Face it - the big sport here is football, and the team most support wears goofy colored uniforms with a big O on them.

Oh, and light rail will definitely affect game attendance. So will the new freeway. How many years are they supposed to take to build? Traffic in the Clark College area is going to be screwed up for all that time. Lots of construction equipment and gravel trucks and who knows what else. And because of our weather, especially all the rain, I predict they'll be falling behind schedule and working late when the weather gets good. Gee - that'll be during baseball season. All that dust being kicked up will make us think we're at a Dodgers game.

roger — July 13, 2011 at 9:01 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Good evening, all!

Goldie: I have been in attendance at multiple neighborhood meetings with reps from the proposed stadium. The designs they showed will be using the footprint of the existing stadium, but digging down about 18 feet into the ground to accommodate the seating. They say they will leave most of the trees, retaining the park-like feel. My husband and I walked to the current field to scope it out and you don't see it as it is now very well without getting out of your car and hoofing it through the campus. The only parking will be what is available on the campus and on the street. And yes, they are really focusing on the light rail line Park and Ride proposed in the hopes that it will bring Portlanders over. This field is supposed to be used by Little Leagues, lacrosse, soccer and even outdoor concerts (think Mozart on the Mound!).

Some of my neighbors in Arnada are worried about increased noise, lights, traffic, litter, and crime. Some are looking forward to packing up the family and walking to games and events. I would certainly attend if it were built. I am keeping an open mind about it will continue to attend meetings when scheduled to learn more. Clark College is excited about it.

The biggest problem I see is the fact that we are cutting back on safety and support services. Maybe, if we are facing an entertainment tax, it should pay for critial services first.

manthou — July 13, 2011 at 9:02 p.m. ( | suggest removal

manthou- July 11, 8:58.....but dick in a tutu? LOL. It is interesting how people take a strong position against gays but when the situation is on their doorstep they have a change of heart. For that I'm thankful. It's to bad some have to be hit by a Mac truck in order to realize it's a two way street. Those who tout the moral high ground are far too often digging holes in their self-righteous basements.

nailingit — July 13, 2011 at 9:10 p.m. ( | suggest removal

mr_basil_seal---Thank you for exhibiting the quality of long suffering, and thank you for supplying much information on needed subjects. You are one of many that post here that are NOT "shameful to our country". I'm proud that we have freedom to discourse and share opinion. Your comments ring proud for our country and I hope your voice continues here.

ELISI...never mind.

I can't wait till 2012...these baggers are something else! These new boys and girls in the house are a helluva lot of things. Something they most surely entertaining.

nailingit — July 13, 2011 at 9:23 p.m. ( | suggest removal

nailingit: Yep. There's nothing like being faced with actually loving someone who chose a lifestyle you made political hay railing against at one time. That bond between a parent and a child is hard to break, but it surely must have been tested in the Cheney family.

Mary and her partner were right up on stage with the whole fam damily at the 2008 Republican convention. They have two cute children together. I was glad to see it then and even more happy to learn that Mr. Cheney actually attended the Log Cabin Republican event. It humanizes him, ya' know!

My favorite bumper sticker of all time was this: Satan/Cheney: Vote the Father/Son Ticket!

manthou — July 13, 2011 at 9:27 p.m. ( | suggest removal

nailingit: You said, "These new bosy and girls in the house are a helluva lot of things. Something they most surely entertaining."

I might add they are dangerous, too!

I heard Thom Hartmann today opine that the framers of the Constitution considered Congress to be the most powerful branch of government.


manthou — July 13, 2011 at 9:35 p.m. ( | suggest removal


I have to disagree with you...The Beaver's pulled in some pretty good numbers while they were in PDX, about 6500/game average. The reason they are gone is the owner got greedy...At PGE Park soccer and baseball had co-existed for years but then for the new team he decided he wanted a soccer only park and wanted someone/anyone to him a new stadium. I think he wanted to move the team to Arizona anyway, so now he had the excuse he needed.

Yeah, after watching some Rockies (single A) games in PDX when the Beavers did move wasn't the best and the other thing about A ball is that the players aren't around for very long. You either are good and move up, or you are let go to make room on the roster for someone else. But you have a chance that some local talent might make the team.

I think if they average about 1500-2000/gm they should be happy. I don't know, there is something to be said about PDX being the largest metro area without any type of pro ball.

Yes when the discussions with Diamondbacks about Vancouver as a site I imagine future LR came up. But hopefully the idea that I-5 will be torn-up in construction for 3 to 4 years did too.

We'll see.

PS I have my own definition of single A ball, but I don't want to share it here.

pdxtech91 — July 13, 2011 at 9:35 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Manthou, thank you for your involvement in the planning process. As you probably remember, I attended and graduated from Clark College and utilized the parking across the street numerous times. I've taken a walk in that area in recent years and yes, even digging down maybe 18 feet will help with the stadium but the facts are there in plain English. With the light rail transit center AND the construction of the parking garage coupled by the existing structures in the area, it will be just as concentrated as it is at the neighborhood around Jeld-Wen Field. The difference??? Jeld-Wen Field has many homes and small businesses surrounding it. They don't have a college across the street from it along with a Veteran's Hospital, a high school, a state school for the blind, a DSHS building within a few hundred feet of it and a community center in that area. It's ALREADY TOO CROWDED there, Manthou.

Why is it I'm the only one who is speaking up and recognizes the fact that it is already too congested and poor planning for our future??? And Manthou...please don't tell me I don't know what I'm talking about. I was over at Clark this past quarter, several times a I do know what the traffic and the parking is like in that area CURRENTLY. Why else do you think Clark built their satellite school? It was an attempt to alleviate the problems of parking and overcrowding yet Clark had a record year for attendance, so any reduction of classes in the area by the new building is all but nil.

Like Roger says...the construction will create a helluva mess and there will be delays after delays after delays.

Manthou, I mean no disrespect to you as I admire your devotion to the improvement of our city and I too want to see a better turnout for our city, but honestly ma'am...there has been an obvious manipulation of the minds in trying to convince everyone that this is what is needed for our city...a $7-8 billion dollar crossing project which will only get off the ground if it includes implementing a $1 billion dollar light rail ending at the most busy section of Central Park which obviously has a crime issue right now, followed by a parking garage taking away yet even more green space and a stadium to house a minor league baseball team...even after Portland got rid of their team... all crammed into a quarter mile radius!!! It's absolutely ridiculous in my opinion. be continued

goldenoldie — July 13, 2011 at 9:36 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Manthou, why is it that we are seeing very little in the manner of the upcoming waterfront improvement project? That had a lot of potential when I sat down and listened to the proposed project. Could it be because reality has hit that the megabridge will shadow over much of the project, giving the residents of the buildings much less to enjoy with regards to the view??? That could have been a wonderful project with waterfront venues yet now we hear nothing! Why is it we have a sudden rush for this project by Clark? Is this the "nudge" to gather support from the folks in the city for LRT?

It's quite easy to see just who is pushing for the baseball stadium, the parking garage and light rail to Clark...

...and it makes me sick to see the manipulation of the folks of the City of Vancouver and Clark County in order to gain a foothold for the few who will benefit from this special interest debacle forming.

Truly sad, Manthou...truly sad.

goldenoldie — July 13, 2011 at 9:37 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Chill a 5000 seat Baseball Stadium is not that big. The tennis courts and parking can stay. Besides they'll need the parking spaces.

"...Maybe you'd like to dig that last shovelful of dirt to bury our county the rest of the way but I sure as heck wouldn't, pdx..."

Now, don't you think that it just a little over top!!

I want to bury Vancouver because I want to go to a baseball game?

pdxtech91 — July 13, 2011 at 9:46 p.m. ( | suggest removal

manthou..these baggers in the house will without a doubt go down in history as the most corrupt and incompetent in our nation's history. They are dangerous beyond belief. Wisconsin rocks! Once these corporate shills/government employees are recalled and ousted it will further set the tone for 2012. Policies and actions from the Wisconsin republicans (and in many more states) are a small sample of what we are in for if a GOP Pres and a majored house and senate happen. It would be the chaos those on the right hope for.

nailingit — July 13, 2011 at 9:57 p.m. ( | suggest removal

...and if Barbara would just open a a bit.

nailingit — July 13, 2011 at 10:07 p.m. ( | suggest removal

...and to all the baseball haters...............PLAY BALL!!!

Man, I can already hear the crack of the bat and the leather poppin'! Play Ball!

nailingit — July 13, 2011 at 10:09 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Hey boss, give my ticket to Allen or someone else. Baseball puts me to sleep. Now if they were to bring in American Football (not that soccer crap), I'd be up for that.

hawkeye — July 13, 2011 at 10:20 p.m. ( | suggest removal

hawk, once we get some of this anonymous corporate campaign money flowing in we'll buy our own damn football team. Hell, if I promise to continue the Bush/Obama tax breaks, make it illegal for a woman to treat her body as if it were her own while taking away her freedom to serve in the military...the Koch Bros..Bushes and Bachmans of the world will makes us filthy rich!

nailingit — July 13, 2011 at 10:37 p.m. ( | suggest removal

I'm reading some of these ridiculous and hateful comments about our President and the need to raise the debt ceiling. Some of these people are idiots. Just idiots. It doesn't matter what Obama does in the WHITE House. For many of these discriminate chin hoisters, he just doesn't quite fit in.

nailingit — July 13, 2011 at 11:37 p.m. ( | suggest removal

I was referring to FB comments. I only check FB comments out once a week max. And when I do I'm reminded why.

nailingit — July 13, 2011 at 11:43 p.m. ( | suggest removal

manthou - I am finding some comic relief and entertainment with the goofballs in Congress, too! Take the lightbulb bill the Republicans put forth today for a great example. (Yes, they do have time for more than women's rights issues, it seems, just no time for budget issues or jobs). Republican sponsored bill, Republican controlled Congress, and it was voted DOWN. Doesn't Boehner know how to COUNT votes before he brings it to the floor?

Many, many jokes already flying - google Republican light bulb

Q. How many Buchanan campaign advisors does it take to change a lightbulb.? A. One. But the bulb has to be White, American Made and turn to the right.

Mrs_T — July 13, 2011 at 11:49 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Mrs_T LOL! Hopefully these bulbs will burn out quickly. Our Pres finally displayed a little measured righteous anger today. I knew this 2010 Republican controlled congress would be corrupt and inept, but this theatre of the absurd they keep displaying is bewildering. They are killing their party bit by bit in the minds eye of the voting public. The only way I can explain how so many ,to include some that post here, is they get their info from Fox News or some other fringe right wing media source. This thing with Murdoch..........even if Murdoch, Ailes, or God him/herself told fox viewers their network was a sham they wouldn't believe it. The kool-aid is strong, and saturates those with biased tendencies.

nailingit — July 14, 2011 at 12:07 a.m. ( | suggest removal

^^^-"The only way I can explain how so many [people go along with it]"

nailingit — July 14, 2011 at 12:28 a.m. ( | suggest removal

So what is it cat? Do you wake up pissed off every morning and then come here and scream about something that kept you awake last night? I mean, really.... Do you HAVE to ***YELL*** so loud every morning?

hawkeye — July 14, 2011 at 7:32 a.m. ( | suggest removal

goldie: I would never tell you that you do not know what you are talking about! Never have. Never will. :) We have a difference of perspective when it comes to the proposed stadium at Clark College. I like to see new development and people investing in our community, bringing fresh ideas to the mix. It brings diversity and new life and opportunities and the building and maintenance of this stadium will create local jobs. I believe the owners of this ball club will become involved in our community in ways that will enhance it. They give back.

Congestion is terrible on E McLoughlin, in that area, I agree, especially in the mornings and afternoons when students from Clark College and Hudson's Bay HS are coming and going. I avoid it when going to and from work by taking a slightly longer alternate route or by walking. I'd rather see a bustling community, however, than one that is ghost town dead.

Did you know that the VA will be building housing for homeless vets on vacant land on the campus by 2014? The area is changing and I truly believe it is for the better.

manthou — July 14, 2011 at 8:12 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Well then Manthou...if that's the case, maybe Royce and Jack can convince the rest of the Board of Trustees that it's time to move the entire campus of Clark to the east side and leave that entire space open for the type of development that suits their purpose....all of the campus except for the athletic department. and maybe medical training to coincide with potential training for employment at the clinics and VA hospital .

And Manthou...I apologize to you for assuming you'd be judgmental regarding my comment. It was uncalled for. That's why I said what I did in the other post on the CRC thread about why I enjoy reading your comments.

goldenoldie — July 14, 2011 at 8:20 a.m. ( | suggest removal

nailingit and Mrs_T: I can only explain the way some people vote against their own best interests is this (and I do NOT mean it disrespectfully): if we were to test the IQ of every citizen, half would have a standard score under 100 or the 50th percentile. That is the normal distribution.

Perhaps this explains why we have underinformed voters and voters who respond so easily to sound bites and media manipulation and lies. They don't do the research and homework necessary because it is hard for them to do so. They let others do the thinking for them because they have to. There are industries and leaders that understand this and manipulate us and our limits to gain power and control.

If we are blessed with diverse thinking power, we are harder to lie to and control.

Remember: the Founding Fathers created the electoral college, in part, because they were concerned about the lack of education among the general population and feared that the public would not be able to make informed decisions on choosing a President.

manthou — July 14, 2011 at 8:30 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Goldie, if they moved the school east, what would happen to the light rail? Isn't that one of their lame reasons for ending it there?

hawkeye — July 14, 2011 at 8:35 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Nice mullet, Hawkeye. Is that Joe Dirt?

Getting back to the subject at hand...Clark College was their first lame excuse to try to convince the people that it was necessary to increase enrollment by Oregonians and future issues of overcrowding. Obviously that one backfired so they went to plan B. Hawkeye, I have no issues with putting in a baseball's just the location they choose that I have the issues with. Can you imagine what it's going to be like trying to go to the games all the while the crossing project is in full swing? And afterwards, the people will be FORCED onto light rail in and BRT order to visit. Anybody who has taken the buses to the fort for the 4th knows the long, tiring process in getting home afterwards. Compound that by about another 20-30% of crowding with Clark students and staff, HBHS students and staff, VA staff and patients, residents, and all the other businesses and there you have it. (my figure of 20-30% is just a guestimation). Utter chaos, my friend. Just think...if they'd run a commuter train along the existing rails, acquire the necessary easements to the Clark County Fairgrounds, utilizing the existing stadium for issues with parking garages, no issues with overcrowding AND the baseball team would still be in Clark County! Why does it have to be crammed at Clark???

It makes absolutely no sense whatsoever!

goldenoldie — July 14, 2011 at 8:43 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Allen: I, too, am concerned about imposing the entertainment tax. But in reality, cities and counties have historically partnered with business or tried to sweeten the pot to entice them here by offering incentives. Big business is used to that and maybe, in this economy, growth will come to a halt because it has to.

Not many big businesses will be able to settle in to a community without some help from local government. Look at Ken Fisher and Camas. Local developers in Vancouver get government courtesies: Angelo, Kassab, Propstra, Furstenberg, Durst, Gramor. But, as you indicate, they may need to cease because there is no more blood in the proverbial turnip.

These times are very hard and I have not seen anything like it in my lifetime. We all will need to adjust expectations and learn to live with less. If the stadium does not reach fruition, so be it. It is a long-shot in this economy. But I am envigorated by the planning and look forward to following the fascinating process.

I see what you are saying and it is sobering, indeed.

manthou — July 14, 2011 at 9 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Oops...that's light rail and BRT in order to visit. Danged carpal tunnel syndrome flareup and trying to proofread while thinking about the apple pie waiting to be prepared in my kitchen. Sorry about that.


Manthou @9 am....NOW you're on a roll. The spending frenzy isn't helping any city who is trying to entice minor league baseball or any minor league anything. Even cities are having to hunker down and cut the pork fat. Funny how it's always police and fire who gets the first cut. With recent cuts in parks and recreation, how do they figure they can add a baseball team to our city right now???

goldenoldie — July 14, 2011 at 9:04 a.m. ( | suggest removal

This state lost one of the west coasts best basketball teams cause the people refused to pay more in taxes to build them a new arena.
They lost the chance of bringing higher level car racing to this state cause the people refused the tax burden of building the track. Yet, this state thinks we should move a minor league baseball team here and pay for it?

ELISI — July 14, 2011 at 9:05 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Of course you are right, Goldie. Seems very common for cities to cram as much into one area as they can to keep that area busy all the time. They don't seem to understand the overlap of events. It's like in P-town, having a Blazer game at the same time as a Winterhawk game. Just try to find a parking spot or a seat on Max before or after the game. It can take hours. Of course if the Max only went to one area (across the bridge) they would only need a few trains at most.

It all seems very stupid and I'm sure the city is only looking at revenue, not the difficulty of attendance.

hawkeye — July 14, 2011 at 9:10 a.m. ( | suggest removal

goldie: You hit the sore spot when you ask: With recent cuts in parks and recreation, how do they figure they can add a baseball team to our city right now?

You also mention police and fire cuts.

That is the most compelling argument presented at the neighborhood meetings, to be sure. If we are going to have a new tax, should it not go first to restore cut services in safety? The only response is that the general fund, the one that supports fire and safety and other county business, will not be touched. No mention of restoring what already is gone.

There are a lot of hurdles to be jumped yet and facing a tapped-out citizenry is one of them.

manthou — July 14, 2011 at 9:15 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Manthou...with the very distinct possibility that we will see what speculators claim as an even worse recession (something I'd call the greater depression in my opinion) looming in the very near future, I don't think anybody will be coming to Vancouver anytime soon to start their team in a new city...especially since the foreclosure rate and unemployment/underemployment rate is so high here. A letter of intent isn't the final contract, either.

You know, I'd be quite surprised if Gramor could even begin breaking ground on the first condo or first building highrise, let alone any other company hoping to acquire tenants on the waterfront. I don't know about how you feel on this matter, but our economic status here sucks and the looming bridge project as a view for the tenants??? And the traffic issues as well??? It just ain't happenin' yet!

Also, if our police and fire departments are struggling to meet the expectations of the community and the incidents of traffic accidents and structural fires increase along with the obvious issues of the criminal aspect which continues to climb, especially with these million dollar marijuana grows in fancy homes in nice neighborhoods popping up everywhere...there won't be a city with enough quality to support such a venue...even at minor league status.

The line must be drawn at some point.

goldenoldie — July 14, 2011 at 9:23 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Hawkeye, with the clusterf... in that area already, how do those intending to improve the liveability of Vancouver think they are making it look better with parking garages, overhead lines and rails throughout the town and a baseball stadium, a transit center, a community center all crammed next to a hospital and state health department building? If they want livability, there must also be an aesthetic appeal achieved. I'm not seeing it. The only aesthetic appeal I see around Fort Vancouver Way is at Evergreen Blvd and Officer's Row. Clark is getting better as the remodels are completed...but they're trying to cram too much in one confined area as far as I'm concerned.

goldenoldie — July 14, 2011 at 9:27 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Mrs T & Nailhead,

First time composer longtime follwer. As you can tell from my screen name I may lean to the right a bit.. Tell me why it's ok to tell jokes about th RT or Rep and not about our Pres or Dems as it's unpatrioatic. I've seen so much blather and left side rhetoric on here like you all know how to fix everything and your Dem friends in congress and the white house so why haven't you all fixed what ails our city, county, state & Country then?? Just curious and looking to be more informed.. I fly the flagg everyday, vote in every election since moving to this Village in 32 years ago. So I'm a proud american, please enlighten me king and Queen.

rtsidethinker — July 14, 2011 at 10:19 a.m. ( | suggest removal

It's early for me wrongside, jokes about RT? What "jokes" are you referring to about Obama? Take a look at the job bills that have been shot down or set aside in the House. I suppose there isn't time for the House to roll back women's rights AND help our economy. This is nothing new.

Does everyone understand the Republicans answer to fix our economy is to return to the Bush years? It is amazing to me that some memories fade with a few months of Fox news.

manthou @ 8:30- Thanks for pointing out the elephant in the room. It's a difficult subject and one not easily approached. The dumbing down of America from the right is truly playing to much of their base. I'm originally from Iowa many many moons ago. So glad I left when I was a kid...perhaps it's the water!

nailingit — July 14, 2011 at 10:57 a.m. ( | suggest removal

On a lighter note today, folks. Anybody see the picture of the Giant Adelaide River Crocodile that has gone viral??? There's speculation that the picture is a chopped photo, but I found a video through the news site in Adelaide which shows Brutus is 100% real.

Here's the picture accompanied by an article.

And here's the video which proves it's not a fake.

goldenoldie — July 14, 2011 at 11:16 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Does anyone believe returning to the Bush years will help our economy? Please answer and explain. Thanks.

nailingit — July 14, 2011 at 11:22 a.m. ( | suggest removal


Do you ever research things before you post or are do you have a fly on the wall back in congress so you know about each and evry job bill thta has been proposed. Each bill that is submitted has at least on average 6 riders attached to them, some have as many as 30.. What are these riders, they vary but typically each once is something another person wants in order to get it voted through or passed. They end up costing billions in some cases when in fact it should have cost a tenth of what it eneded up costing. I just copied and pasted this infor for you so you could see what is really happening and why bills arn't getting passed..

30 so called job bills have come before congress and how many have passed and why.. Look up those reasons and you see why...You can't keep throwing more money at something hoping for different results. EINSTEIN.. says it's INSANITY...If you keep doing what you've always done expecting different results, then thats Insanity.

Democratic leaders in the House of Representatives, who had already scaled back the bill, proposed dumping a further $30 billion in healthcare subsidies to appease centrist "Blue Dogs" worried about adding further to the budget deficit.

The latest version would add about $60 billion to the deficit over 10 years -- less than half the cost of the version that Democrats had hoped to pass on Wednesday.

"We're just interested in keeping the cost down," said Representative Henry Cuellar, a Blue Dog who outlined the latest changes to reporters.

With November's congressional elections looming, the Democrats who control Congress face conflicting pressures to bring down the unemployment rate and close the budget deficit, which hit a record $1.4 trillion last year.

"Members who are from low-unemployment areas are very concerned about the deficit. Members who are from high-unemployment areas are very concerned about the jobs," House Speaker Nancy Pelosi said at a news conference.

Democrats named job creation their top priority for 2010, but despite months of effort have only managed to enact one bill centered on payroll tax breaks.

With the U.S. public debt nearing a record $13 trillion, the public has become less tolerant of expensive stimulus efforts, analysts said.

On another topic,

New I-5 Bridge
How many jobs will be created locally and for how long and for how much? How will it help our Local economy? I think positively on both and that's just one reason I am in favor of a new bridge.Good wage paying jobs and more people spending there dollars here instead of PEETOWN..

rtsidethinker — July 14, 2011 at 11:47 a.m. ( | suggest removal

wrong side. You are quite verbose today. Please answer any of my questions previously stated. "Dems named job creation top priority 1n 2010"...too bad they lost control in 2010...wrongside...they no longer have control of the house. Since you are bringing up riders added to job bills... :)) please....tell us all about the bills and riders attached to the bills you are referring to that make them not doable. Not just a copy and paste opinion from who knows where.

Please don't copy and paste your talking points derived from someone else...sigh. It's news to you that riders are attached to bills?

People...we need to wake up and this is a good example.

nailingit — July 14, 2011 at 12:09 p.m. ( | suggest removal

rtsidethinker — July 14, 2011 at 11:47 a.m

The rest of the article:

Cost concerns threaten jobs bill in Congress

By Andy Sullivan and Kim Dixon
WASHINGTON | Thu May 27, 2010 6:28pm EDT

mr_basil_seal — July 14, 2011 at 12:21 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Nailingit, I'll try to answer you in the best way that I can although I do not profess to be politically correct. I believe the worst think we could do is revert back not only to the Bush administration but any of the prior administrations. I believe our nation needs to go through a metamorphosis of sorts. Our leaders should be learning from past mistakes and avoid repeating the same problem which has ultimately put us where we are today. Unfortunately, we are all going to feel the pinch no matter if the debt ceiling is raised or if it is not and our government why prolong the inevitable?

goldenoldie — July 14, 2011 at 12:26 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Allen — July 14, 2011 at 10:14 a.m

My point exactly. Why should the tax payer pay for these venues?
These sport venues are great money makers, let the owners pay the bill. Give them a tax break, and watch the places becomes packed with ticket holders. Court the right venders and money is there to be made. Correct me if wrong, but even if they aren't totally packed, and they lose money, there is enough loopholes that they can write it off as a loss tax wise!

ELISI — July 14, 2011 at 12:47 p.m. ( | suggest removal

We were discussing the Koch influence on American politics yesterday:

ALEC Exposed: The Koch Connection
Lisa Graves
July 12, 2011 | This article appeared in the August 1-8, 2011 edition of The Nation.

Hundreds of ALEC’s model bills and resolutions bear traces of Koch DNA: raw ideas that were once at the fringes but that have been carved into “mainstream” policy through the wealth and will of Charles and David Koch. Of all the Kochs’ investments in right-wing organizations, ALEC provides some of the best returns: it gives the Kochs a way to make their brand of free-market fundamentalism legally binding.

No one knows how much the Kochs have given ALEC in total, but the amount likely exceeds $1 million—not including a half-million loaned to ALEC when the group was floundering. ALEC gave the Kochs its Adam Smith Free Enterprise Award, and Koch Industries has been one of the select members of ALEC’s corporate board for almost twenty years. The company’s top lobbyist was once ALEC’s chairman. As a result, the Kochs have shaped legislation touching every state in the country. Like ideological venture capitalists, the Kochs have used ALEC as a way to invest in radical ideas and fertilize them with tons of cash.

mr_basil_seal — July 14, 2011 at 12:49 p.m. ( | suggest removal

manthou — July 14, 2011 at 8:30 a.m.

*They don't do the research and homework necessary because it is hard for them to do so. They let others do the thinking for them because they have to.*

Voting against your own best interests:

You Can't Get There From Here (So Stop Voting Like You're Gonna Get Rich)

One of the big 5 rationalizations I've gotten pretty consistently over the years for just why it is some of the poorest people in our country vote to install representatives who advocate only for some of the richest people in our country is, they think they're going to be rich themselves someday. We're talking about folks just wracked by poverty and looking into a bleak future filled with even more privation and degradation flowing out of a Washington that's rode its sine wave of concern for the least of these to its nadir with the ascendency of a Republican majority to the House of Representatives. We're talking about poor people who will always be poor, whose parents never knew naught but poverty, and who might very well be able to trace their lineage to serfdom or indentured servitude, perpetual peons with neither the skills nor the education necessary to work their way out of their jam. We're talking about people who, even if trickledown economics worked, would never feel even a mist of that golden flow from down in the deep hole of wretched despair that is unremitting poverty. And yet they vote Republican. Because they think they might someday be rich.

mr_basil_seal — July 14, 2011 at 12:56 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Goldenoldie, et al, here's a start:

Let's build thousands of local activist grassroots groups and fight back everywhere
byChris Bowersfor

This Saturday and Sunday, dozens have progressive organizations, including Daily Kos, have worked together to coordinate 1,300 house parties all over the country.

These parties are the start of a huge effort to build thousands of grassroots groups around the country that will share ideas, strengthen ties between local progressive activists, and build a lasting national movement that can fight back everywhere.

It's called the American Dream House Meeting. It's the start of a movement to shift power back to the American people and away from Wall Street, millionaires and big corporations. If you live in the United States, there is almost certainly a house party near you. Just click here to find a list of events within 30 miles of your zip code and sign up to attend.

The plan is simple: get people together with their like-minded neighbors and have them start exchanging ideas about how to fix the country. You can see some of the ideas people have already submitted, and also submit some of your own, on this website here: Contract for the American Dream.

mr_basil_seal — July 14, 2011 at 1:03 p.m. ( | suggest removal

nailingit, I have a question for you.

Why can't someone (elected critter) stand up and motion for passage of a bill guaranteeing SS and military salaries be paid?

As I see it, Dems don't want to pass such bill cause then they have no scare tactic to use..
Rep are scared to bring such a bill up cause they know the media will twist it and cost them votes..

A no win situation with both sitting on their hands. IMO that is one of the biggest reason why they don't get anything done!
Another is all the crap they attached to bills in order to get them passed!

ELISI — July 14, 2011 at 1:06 p.m. ( | suggest removal

mr_basil_seal — July 14, 2011 at 12:56 p.m

On the flip side of that Basil, people need to "stop voting thinking the government owes them everything"

ELISI — July 14, 2011 at 1:13 p.m. ( | suggest removal

ELISI — July 14, 2011 at 1:13 p.m.

And the candidate speeches that claim to bring that are.....?

mr_basil_seal — July 14, 2011 at 1:16 p.m. ( | suggest removal

mr_basil_seal — July 14, 2011 at 12:49 p.m.

How does this justify boycotting Koch products and potentially sending tens of thousands of U.S. union wage jobs out of the country?

frobert — July 14, 2011 at 1:23 p.m. ( | suggest removal

mr_basil_seal — July 14, 2011 at 12:49 p.m.

LOL and George Soros hasn't done the same thing for the left?

ELISI — July 14, 2011 at 1:39 p.m. ( | suggest removal

basil @12:56 PM: My husband calls what you just described "voting their aspirations." He believes that is the main reason, like you point out, for voting against your own best interests.

pdxtech91 @1:05: OMG. 911 victim families? Murdoch's monopolistic propaganda machine is imploding. That is why respectable journalists adhere to a professional code of ethics. Amazing.

manthou — July 14, 2011 at 1:44 p.m. ( | suggest removal

frobert — July 14, 2011 at 1:23 p.m.

Sorry, I guess I'm part of that "reality-based community", so tell us about that. Generally a 'boycott' involves buying from another company, not not buying anything. And letting the 'boycotted' co. know why one isn't purchasing their product.

mr_basil_seal — July 14, 2011 at 1:49 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Allen — July 14, 2011 at 1:41 p.m.

*So do we dare mention to those who attack labor that they don't know their history? Several people over on facebook comes to mind on that. Or will that be considered as a attack on someone by the Columbian?*

Actually, most posts on the FB side from the fact deprived don't get much of a response if you ask them for proof. Or if you post a link to what disproves their fact-challenged claims.

mr_basil_seal — July 14, 2011 at 1:54 p.m. ( | suggest removal

ELISI — July 14, 2011 at 1:39 p.m.

Tell us.....

mr_basil_seal — July 14, 2011 at 1:56 p.m. ( | suggest removal

mr_basil_seal — July 14, 2011 at 1:49 p.m

Has any other major paper producer showed their dedication to the American worker? Or would an increase in demand of others products equal an increase in off shore production?

frobert — July 14, 2011 at 2:06 p.m. ( | suggest removal

goldenoldie....I believe if we did something fairly simplistic as returning to the Clinton era tax rate we would save 4 Trillion dollars over the next ten years. If our credit rating declines we'll be charged much interest costing us even more billions. Republicans have al;ways been bad at paying their own way and this is no exception. America has money. The right wing media has much of the country up in arms with false info. Why is Minnesota shut down? The upper 1% don't want their income touched. This has gotten to the point of being more than ridiculous. Obama has conceded much more than he should and the corporate hacks that call themselves politicians should be ashamed.

We've never had this problem before. No president has. Elect someone a "little different" in the White House and these good ol' southern boys and others have been bringing the Presidential hate like no other time in history. Disgraceful.They will say and do anything to bring down this presidency. Yeah...I'm playing the race card, and doing so in the knowledge.

nailingit — July 14, 2011 at 2:25 p.m. ( | suggest removal

ELISI...soooo people in the military and on SS should get paid and everything else defunded?

Bush got clean debt ceiling increases no prob. What...President Obama is different? Is this how you pay your bills??? Pick and choose the ones you feel you should pay rather than the ones you are OBLIGATED to? Let your credit rating tank so your interest rates go up? What the hell is wrong with some of you people? You bitch because 150,000 soldiers aren't getting body armor that you feel would be best for them although combat operations have ceased in Iraq and less than 100 (by some accounts even less) A-Qeada are even present in Iraq or Afghanistan/? Lets just keep blindly shoving money into our war machine. Maybe we can point the gun barrel at Russia next time in the name of "Democracy" and harvest their resources. You say you have many members in your family that are military. That's nice. I many friends and associates who put their lives in harms way routinely. It's their chosen profession and they don't hide behind it or take a pompous stand and claim no one else has the right to express their opinion on the wars. I'm sick of the few like yourself that in the end tarnish the integrity of our country by constantly condemning anyone that balks at feeding our imperialistic mindset. It's your narrow way of thinking that not only gets us into war....but then will bitch because not enough money is being spent on your cause.

Thanks for your time. Peace. Do you think it will rain today? :))

nailingit — July 14, 2011 at 2:51 p.m. ( | suggest removal

I challenge all posters who get the majority of their news from Fox to stop for three days. It could be a life changer. And to all those who say they don't watch Fox but're already shamed! LOL!

nailingit — July 14, 2011 at 2:57 p.m. ( | suggest removal

By the is mid 2011. The Republicans ran strictly on a jobs platform in 2010.

And won big time from the American people.

I could be wrong about this, but I do believe there hasn't been one job proposal, recommendation, bill, something that looks like a bill or any conversation even from those on the right about jobs. They just blame Obama. Wasn't and isn't this the reason for the Bush/Obama tax breaks? You guys that support a Bachman, Romney, Bush....doesn't this concern you? Doesn't it concern you that the people you voted into office have done nothing in this regard? Doesn't it concern you that 12 years of a majored Republican Congress and 8 years of Bush we lost millions of jobs? That these tax breaks have been proven not to work? If we want to save a good what...around half a trillion dollars over the next 2 years, keep the middle class tax cut and extend it only on the upper income tax brackets. It's too easy to fix this problem without cutting education, medical and so many needed programs. We need a middle class awakening in this country.

nailingit — July 14, 2011 at 3:21 p.m. ( | suggest removal


you forgot, they are trying to get us better lightbulbs. We are saved !!!!

hawkeye — July 14, 2011 at 3:36 p.m. ( | suggest removal

As ridiculous as that is hawk, it's a good example of what these present day republicans do. Co-sponsored bi-partisan bills from light bulbs to the Dream Act were agreed upon from both parties for a variety of reasons. Obama gets in and whoa! They have this "sudden" reversal of mind.

nailingit — July 14, 2011 at 3:52 p.m. ( | suggest removal

nailingit — July 14, 2011 at 2:51 p.m

Go back and reread what I posted...

I never said de-fund anything. I said a bill guaranteeing that they would receive their checks and as I see it why neither side will step up and suggest it. I asked a simple question, gave my opinion why I thought it wouldn't be done.
Where do you get off going into the spiel that you did?
You went way over bounds in answering, typical..

Combat operations have ceased? Where do you live nailingit, seems to me that troops are still in harms way and are still dying. Even our police get new body armor when theirs break down.

I did not say anyone doesn't have a right to their opinion on the war or for anything for that matter, another..reading too much into what a person says just so you can argue.

I'm sick of people like yourself puffing up like a blow fish when anyone that doesn't agree with you 100% and follow your mindset. You have a lot to learn..

ELISI — July 14, 2011 at 4:06 p.m. ( | suggest removal

frobert — July 14, 2011 at 2:06 p.m.


Tell us how they've "showed their dedication ".

& maybe remind us about why you were talking about boycotts.

mr_basil_seal — July 14, 2011 at 4:18 p.m. ( | suggest removal

mr_basil_seal — July 14, 2011 at 4:18 p.m.

Georgia Pacific 40,000 U.S. living wage jobs. Most major paper producers over recent years have been closing plants and increasing off shore production.

frobert — July 14, 2011 at 4:23 p.m. ( | suggest removal

mr_basil_seal — July 14, 2011 at 4:18 p.m.

And again Koch political donations also go to causes like:
Ending the wars. ending the war on drugs, ending the patriot act and legalizing gay marriage. So why do you liberals have such a hate on for them?

frobert — July 14, 2011 at 4:27 p.m. ( | suggest removal

**Obama to GOP: 'Don't call my bluff'**

Now...if you think about it...our fearless leader is telling the Republicans that he's bluffing.


The man does know how to turn a phrase.

kn_dalai — July 14, 2011 at 4:32 p.m. ( | suggest removal

rightside thinker - got any good Dem jokes? I love a good laugh. Never remember saying that it was "not OK" to make jokes about one or not the other! I'm old and grey, got any jokes about that? I'm sure I can handle that. We just finished hearing many Weiner jokes, laughed at most, unless they were over-the-top raw!

As for king and queen - don't want to be one, nor be ruled by one on either side of the fence. Obama should not even have to be involved in these debt ceiling talks. A bunch of spoiled brat kids that signed a pact with the devil caused Congress to call him in yelling "help, we can't get this done, even though it is our job". Why don't they accept the "Big Deal"? We need to reduce the debt. Obama offers up $4 trillion, with shared sacrifices on both sides, and they say "no". How about $1.7 trillion with continued taxpayer subsidies to the wealthiest. I happen to side with Obama on this matter. Not all.

Mrs_T — July 14, 2011 at 4:32 p.m. ( | suggest removal

frobert - you may want to ask those that gave their sweat equity to the Camas mill about that! They aren't even getting their full retirement, as they didn't "retire" even after 30+ years!

Mrs_T — July 14, 2011 at 4:58 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Mrs_T — July 14, 2011 at 4:58 p.m.

Great northern paper, Diamond international, Champion international,Eastern fine paper,Lincoln pulp and paper, I could go on and on, Georgia Pacific is still here in the U.S. producing paper providing union wage jobs. All those others age gone. Who would you rather by your products from South African Pulp and Paper?

frobert — July 14, 2011 at 5:05 p.m. ( | suggest removal

""I challenge all posters who get the majority of their news from Fox to stop for three days.""

Nailingit, I'll tell you this. My family and I decided to eliminate our satellite service two weeks ago because of the crap we watched every day, not only on Fox but on the other news channels as well. We are being herded to listen to the repetitive reports from all entities...resembling each other with just a slight variance of verbiage...and I am thankful we decided to cut it out. I was watching the movie "1984," by George Orwell. Talk about an eye opener!!! I see so many similarities right now that we are experiencing as to what I've seen on the movie.

I've also discovered how sedentary life is when you concentrate your evening entertainment, sitting in front of the television, trying to catch the evening news, Bill O'Reilly, Wolf Blitzer or whoever else says what folks want to hear. And do we really need to hear Nancy Grace's rendition of every single trial in America? many times do we have to be told to buy gold or to use your money when YOU need it???'s nicer without satellite!!! Love to watch the golden oldie movies like "It Had to Be You" and the classic b/w Outer Limits.

So I don't challenge people to step away from Fox for a few days. I challenge EVERYONE to step away from the television, period!

goldenoldie — July 14, 2011 at 5:13 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Also Nailingit, as long as parties are divided rather than working together as one to achieve a solution they can all agree ain't gonna happen. Your obvious disrespect for a political party you do not support is a prime example of the problem right now. Nailingit, do you ever write the Republican Party with ideas which might improve life for all Americans? You complain a lot about what they are doing wrong or not doing but do you ever contact them? I'm just curious.

Myself....I write my concerns to both sides of the ticket and receive responses from all of them.

goldenoldie — July 14, 2011 at 5:25 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Alleycat, you silly cat...we changed the channels. I'm not saying there aren't a few good channels but for what we got for $39.99, it wasn't worth the stress induced by our urge to follow the news so closely. Besides, the good channels can be seen on the internet as well. I'm just choosing not to follow the herd and load up on too much television any more. And that antichrist you claim is on Fox??? It's all over, my friend.

goldenoldie — July 14, 2011 at 5:30 p.m. ( | suggest removal

kn_dalai, your observation of words by our Commander in Chief made me smile.

goldenoldie — July 14, 2011 at 5:41 p.m. ( | suggest removal

ELISI-....last nights conversation you had with mr_basil_seal....give me a break. If you are going to shoot your mouth off.....remember it the day after. constantly blur the lines of responsibility for both parties. Whatever works for you. It sure doesn't work for the country. We can bury our heads in the sand and cover our ears but

lets understand things a bit. Even when it goes against what we think to be true. You have espoused the ramblings of Beck. LOL!!! I really don't expect to agree with you tooo much.

It's what makes America so wacky. But when it comes to governing our country...maybe wacky not to good.

nailingit — July 14, 2011 at 5:58 p.m. ( | suggest removal

alleycat...two successive posts you made I agree 100% with. One of us must be F'ed up! LOL!

nailingit — July 14, 2011 at 6:17 p.m. ( | suggest removal

The Minnesota Gov just caved in to republicans agreeing to severe cuts in services, education and agreed to put the state deeper in debt with borrowing. The shutdown is strangling the locals and the Gov caved.

As opposed to a slight increase on Minnesota's upper 1%.

nailingit — July 14, 2011 at 7:05 p.m. ( | suggest removal

nailingit @ 7:05 - welcome to the plutocracy!

Mrs_T — July 14, 2011 at 8:01 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Mrs_T: Some say we are a "plutarchy": combo of plutocracy and oligarchy. :)

Read about the US Coffee Party movement:

manthou — July 14, 2011 at 8:21 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Mrs_T....manthou.....a corporatocracy? AHHHH!!! Will they let us still vote at the local level?

TWIMC...don't mean to break with civility in the basement. It is up to us to govern ourselves. Not only in here but society as a whole. I never could stand bullying. When I perceive it in print...just don't like it....

nailingit — July 14, 2011 at 8:38 p.m. ( | suggest removal

I think this Coffee Party movement is on to something. I just signed up as a card-carrying member.

We just need a Vancouver Chapter, however. The nearest one is miles away......

Incite Civility, nailingit!

manthou — July 14, 2011 at 8:43 p.m. ( | suggest removal

ELISI...sorry about the last nite comment. I should have said July 12...your uncalled for personal attacks against mr_basil_seal when your logic was shot to hell...anyway...

nailingit — July 14, 2011 at 8:44 p.m. ( | suggest removal

manthou-"Incite Civility nailingit!" did I do?... ;))

nailingit — July 14, 2011 at 8:46 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Maybe we all ought to sign a basement civility pledge, eh?

Here is the Coffee Party's example:

As a member or supporter of the Coffee Party, I pledge to conduct myself in a way that is civil, honest, and respectful toward people with whom I disagree. I value people from different cultures, I value people with different ideas, and I value and cherish the democratic process.

What say you, basement dwelling brothers and sisters? :)

manthou — July 14, 2011 at 8:58 p.m. ( | suggest removal

nailingit — July 14, 2011 at 8:38 p.m.

You are not standing up to bullying unless it applys to all you are being partisan, you should take a lesson from Roger and Allycat when they stood up for bob when the columbian warned him about some of his statements.

frobert — July 14, 2011 at 9 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Tea parties, house parties, coffee parties, Tupperware parties. Nice but can they move the dial off center, since they all counteract each other? The Duopoly of R & D rules America and has forever. There is not a viable third party challenger, unless you consider the spoiler role a legitimate cause...

The debt ceiling will be raised. The only thing the two parties can ever agree on is spend more money, and this will make it possible. Its a dangerous game. The deterrent to destruction is mutually assured destruction, the same instinct that keeps us all from crossing the white line on the road and missiles safely stowed in silos. Not very likely to happen....but there should be some positive bounce for the economy after they settle it. We won't like it but at least we will know what we have to work with.

mangoboy — July 14, 2011 at 9:09 p.m. ( | suggest removal

manthou! Right on!.......errr..mmmm..does it include baggers?

frobert...screw the wife beater. You should give something to charity for penance.

Can I be in charge of the civility dept.?

nailingit — July 14, 2011 at 9:13 p.m. ( | suggest removal

No one believes that any of these spin off people parties are going to usurp the great Donkeys and Elephants, mangoboy.

It is just the fun of working with like-minded folk to maybe move the mountain just a tad........

manthou — July 14, 2011 at 9:17 p.m. ( | suggest removal

nailingit: I thought you were running for President? You did not give me a job in your campaign yet, so I volunteer for Civility Czar. :)

manthou — July 14, 2011 at 9:21 p.m. ( | suggest removal

....hands down I dub thee Civility Czar! As well as trusted advisor. I might need some civility mentoring before this goes national. Come to think of it you have unknowingly mentored me in commenting civility since I've started posting...I thank you for that.

hawkeye... pls notify the rest of the supposed cabinet of manthou's newly found status, and we'll make it a red carpet bi-partisan dinner/party affair. Complete with music from Elton John. Unless Rush has him scheduled to perform for his fifth wedding also.

nailingit — July 14, 2011 at 9:38 p.m. ( | suggest removal

"i would not be surprised if Ron Paul will get more support this election due to his standing up to the FED guy that prints money out of thin air, makes us borrow it getting us further in debt and then charges us interest on it."

Jeez cat, pick another target. Paul's going nowhere. Without major party backing, he's toast. He's gone as far as he can-even he says so. His libertarian stances sound good on the surface, but they have no place in today's social/economical/political landscape. Kinda like Tea Party bs. The libertarian ship weighed anchor several years ago and has since sailed. Say bye, bye Ross Perot. The policies of today are the policies of tomorrow. Wanna change that? You'll need to take it to the streets. Good luck with that.

mrd — July 14, 2011 at 9:41 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Off topic for the ongoing conversations but I am wondering if anyone else is still being subjected to big bang fireworks?
We are once again sitting indoors with windows and blinds closed, dogs hiding under the bed. Fireworks are so out of control in Vancouver. I live in the heights near Martin Luther King Elementary school.

The Columbian's poll shows 65% say ban the fireworks. I say, ban the BIG BANGS and high flying whistling missles. Oh, and how about some enforcement of the city codes?


itiswritten — July 14, 2011 at 9:45 p.m. ( | suggest removal

LOL nailingit!

I doubt that Rush would have Elton John perform. Unless, of course, Marcus Bachmann could help him "pray the gay away" in time for the wedding!

Mrs_T — July 14, 2011 at 9:51 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Just sent the article re: Seniors speaking out in Clark Co. and around the state to Jamie Herrera-Beutler. Just in case she misses the local news. I asked her if she is listening! It's the next best thing to "taking to the streets". I call her, Murray and Cantwell often. Once in awhile make a call to the County Commissioners (3 Stooges), too!

Mrs_T — July 14, 2011 at 9:54 p.m. ( | suggest removal

itiswritten - I am another one that has had it with the fireworks. Keep it to the 4th only, or outlaw them all together. Some people have to get up at 4:00 AM to go to work, even on July 5th! Fireworks around here don't quit until about 1:00 AM and go on for days before and after the 4th. I would like to think they could enforce the codes, but WE HAVE TO LAY OFF PUBLIC SERVICE WORKERS, you know?
Who's left to enforce anything?

Mrs_T — July 14, 2011 at 9:58 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Mrs_T...last year the big guy paid Elton a cool 1 million $$$ to perform at his 4th wedding. I wonder if he stopped his hate speech during the performance?

nailingit — July 14, 2011 at 10:02 p.m. ( | suggest removal

The Obama Administration is still fighting in the courts to keep DADT in place, and you guys say the tea party is intolerant.

frobert — July 14, 2011 at 10:15 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Here is the real reason why the MI Governor caved a made the deal with the congressional republicans.

He had an image of thousands and thousands of angry citizens with alcohol and nicotine withdrawals storming his office door.

OH, would that be an ugly mob.

pdxtech91 — July 14, 2011 at 10:32 p.m. ( | suggest removal

fro...thank you for stating these two facts.

pdxtech91...most definitely was part of the equation!

nailingit — July 14, 2011 at 10:40 p.m. ( | suggest removal

I think you should seek professional help, There are many resources available

frobert — July 14, 2011 at 11:02 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Nailingit on July 14 @5:58 pm...

Must be something I said for you to spout off all that negative talk??? You said before you join the Coffee Party, you might need some mentoring. I agree. You see nailingit, it's okay for us to agree to disagree and you will read things you definitely won't agree but when spouting off your little rhetoric, bear in mind that it's in your best interest to not blurt out "generalisms" regarding subject matters or people you are absolutely against.

Now as far as your accusations, let's begin with the first one. "I constantly blur the responsibilities of "Both" parties." I give you credit where credit is due. Yes, I do constantly blur the responsibilities of both parties. I admit it...and that's because as single individual parties, they have both provided major failures in their duties. Neither party is working FOR the people, first of all and secondly both parties are too stubborn headed to work together as one to achieve an agreement 99.9% of the time. And so far...I don't see the government working for me OR for the people at all. They are working for dinero, nailingit. They pacify the voters' interests then nail us with higher taxes and the benefits from higher taxes just isn't there. They work for special interests.

Your second accusation: I espouse the ramblings of Beck. Well...yes and no. I support the idea of preparing for an imminent disaster...what's wrong with that? We averted our own financial meltdown BECAUSE of the fact that we paid off our credit cards and pinched and saved to pay off our mortgage a few years back. And guess who was "Rambling" that on his Fox show??? Tell me this Nailingit...two years ago, Beck said gasoline would approach $5.00 a gallon, the worst was yet to come in our economy with families losing their dream of home ownership with foreclosures would reach record highs, jobs losses were going to continue to rise and the American Dollar would be on the brink of disaster with the very real possibility that our government might have to face a default. In effect, he said Chaos was imminent. So to prove him wrong? Now I'm not saying I agree with everything he says because most the time, he rambled on in rhetoric which forced me to turn off the television, but the dude was hitting the nail on the head, Nailingit. So please inform me where the information I shared was inaccurate regarding the words of Beck? I would truly like to hear what the problem was with what I shared. After all, it's a learning process, my fellow poster.

Finally Nailingit, I don't give a rat's hind end if you or anybody else agrees with me. I am voicing my right to share my thoughts and my concerns...nothing more, nothing less. So...when do you go to your mentoring class?

goldenoldie — July 15, 2011 at 6:09 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Here's something for everyone!

Yesterday, I had made a challenge for everyone to step away from the TV, period. I'd like to change that up a bit and challenge everyone to step away from all media for just three days. That includes internet (and no peeking), television and newspapers. If you have a sub to the newspaper, you can go ahead and save it to catch up later if you so choose.

It is my assumption that for every single one of you who participates in this drastic move to eliminate the media from your life for three days...each and every one of you will come back rested, more happy and full of new ideas and more refreshing comments to share. Some of you might go stir crazy but that's all right. Then again, some of you might even find where you had truly gotten too caught up in the moment and said things you'd later regret. Life won't pass you by during those three days...the news will still be there and I guarantee you, you'll be looking at what is being reported in a whole new light. You'll even see what I've been trying to tell all of you as well as what has been shared in Alleycat's messages...seriously!

Let's just call about...*a media vacation*! Everyone enjoys a vacation and this one, you don't have to buy airplane, bus or train tickets and you don't have to fill a tank of gas for a destination. Instead, you'll probably be enjoying life away from the hubub of media joke, people!!!

I dare you all to give it a try just once!!!

See ya in three days!!!

goldenoldie — July 15, 2011 at 6:22 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Media and our addiction to it: We can wean ourselves off it or take a self-imposed hiatus, for sure, as goldenoldie suggests. Or we can use the buffet analogy so popular with this newspaper's editor, and pick and choose a news menu that interests and informs our individual tastes. I usually learn something when I focus my attention on the items that are healthier for me. :)

I was inspired by an interview of Bill Moyers by Rachel Maddow last night. He encouraged us all to renew discussions on the importance of a free and independent press. The topic, of course, was Murdoch's News Corp scandal and what happens to democracy, ethics and media when it is owned by big corporate interests in a monopoly. He mentioned The Guardian in the UK as a good example of a newspaper that is owned by a trust to preserve independence from corporate filtering of the news.

I am going to spend some time today on the Free Press website, goldie. Care to join me?:

manthou — July 15, 2011 at 6:56 a.m. ( | suggest removal

About the six-month moratorium on collective cannabis gardens the Clark County commissioners has passed. Uh, make that an -emergency- moratorium.

Man, talk about knee jerk hysteria!

Not only that, but I doubt it's legal and there's no way to enforce it!

Under SSB-5073 10 people may grow a collective garden with a max of 45 plants and/or 72 ounces of product on site. I think the 10 people got left into the bill inadvertently. I know the legislature was bouncing back and forth on the number of people and the amount of material.

You see, any -individual- with a legal cannabis recommendation is allowed 15 plants and/or 24 ounces (under the guidlines). And, any individual may also be a designated provider for another patient. That puts it at 30 plants. Now let's say there are two people in the residence. Both are patient-providers. The number of plants is now at 60! This is legal under the law. The commissioners cannot say that this sort of grow must be zoned or whatever.

There's no patient registration in this state. The commissioners nor the police know where these grows are. Well, the coppers might have a clue to the location of a few, but...

This has been going on since 1998 and no one has batted an eyelash. Add the word "collective" and all of the sudden the commissioners, at the behest of the Task Force Commander, are making emergency decisions.

Folks, the "collective" is allowed less plants and material than the other scenario I described. A scenario that's been playing out for years!

I'm appalled at the outright ignorance being exhibited by our public officials. The hysteria they are attempting to propagate via the media. I find it downright shameful. Embarrassing, even.

No grows near a church? But, but, I'm a Rastafarian and I want to grow -in- my church!

Some peoples kids... I tell ya. Sheesh.

Drift — July 15, 2011 at 7:18 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Drift — July 15, 2011 at 7:18 a.m.

Why do our democrat and republican politicians even believe that regulation of cannabis is even within the intended reach of their power.

frobert — July 15, 2011 at 7:28 a.m. ( | suggest removal

I-1149 did not garner enough signatures by the deadline:

New Approach Washington has proposed a 2012 initiative which has a better chance of getting somewhere:

manthou — July 15, 2011 at 8:05 a.m. ( | suggest removal

manthou — July 15, 2011 at 8:05 a.m.

The problem is the American people are so indoctrinated with government propaganda that they think it is a legitimate function of government to protect people from themselves. Any thinking person can see that cannabis is not only relatively harmless but outside of the reasonable scope of our government. We cannot claim to be a free people as long as we look to government to protect us from ourselves.

frobert — July 15, 2011 at 8:28 a.m. ( | suggest removal

frobert — July 15, 2011 at 7:28 a.m.

Car tires

Food Safety

Water Standards



Child Labor Laws

Social Security

Civil Rights



mr_basil_seal — July 15, 2011 at 8:40 a.m. ( | suggest removal

mr_basil_seal — July 15, 2011 at 8:40 a.m.

Well, Civil Rights authorized under the 14th, FAA authorized under the Commerce Clause, NASA originally fell under common defense(although now should be authorized by amendment). The others fall under States rights. The Government should not just usurp State authority the Constitution has a mechanism to expand Federal authority if it is needed.

frobert — July 15, 2011 at 8:48 a.m. ( | suggest removal

mr_basil_seal — July 15, 2011 at 8:40 a.m.

When the State surpasses it's authority and tries to protect people from themselves liberty is lost.

frobert — July 15, 2011 at 8:55 a.m. ( | suggest removal

manthou — July 15, 2011 at 6:56 a.m.

Thanks for the link.

Sorta like food for the body, an information diet rich in variety and close to the source is good for the mind.

You might also be interested in the Opposing ViewPoints series. Available through the library database collection.
Basically a compilation of articles from both sides of an issue. Good way to get a feel for the main arguments and resources and who's who in the debate.

I find it a good way to break out of the 'filter bubble' we've talked about.

Also, the ProQuest databases (and others like Ebsco, NetLibrary, Infotrac, AltPress, Ethnic) help in both aspects - getting primary sources and breaking the bubble.

The databases are free with your library card and if the choices are confusing you get good help either in the library or over the phone /email.

mr_basil_seal — July 15, 2011 at 9:01 a.m. ( | suggest removal

manthou- I watched the Bill Moyers interview also. It's good to hear conversation about journalistic integrity. So many today skew the line of truth. I think Rachel is one of the best (if not the best) journalists/hosts around today.

Good morning goldenoldie. 6:09? So much passion! Your vacation is needed and well deserved. Have a great time and I'm sure we will all miss your informative posts!

nailingit — July 15, 2011 at 9:14 a.m. ( | suggest removal

frobert — July 15, 2011 at 8:48 a.m.

So, tire safety standards are 'states' rights'?

So, I'll need to change tires when going over the bridge? I'm having a problem imagining the pullouts required....

*The Government should not just usurp State authority the Constitution has a mechanism to expand Federal authority if it is needed.*

Not an issue of *IF*, what seems to be the issue is that we tried a form of govt that was heavily in favor of individual states' rights. It was called the Articles of Confederation (and, don't forget there was a second attempt 'bout a century later)

And our founding fathers had that first failure in mind during the deliberations for the second founding document.

NASA/NACA started as non-military and UN banned weapons ~5 years later, btw.

mr_basil_seal — July 15, 2011 at 9:15 a.m. ( | suggest removal

mr_basil_seal — July 15, 2011 at 9:15 a.m.

The Constitution is quite clear on States rights, even if politicians tend to ignore them.

Where in the Constitution does it give the Federal Government the authority to usurp States rights?

Our military rocket technology didn't come from NASA?

frobert — July 15, 2011 at 9:28 a.m. ( | suggest removal

~When I see a 9/11 victim family on television, or whatever, I'm just like 'Oh shut up', I'm sick of them because they're always complaining."~ The Glenn Beck program September 09 2005

nailingit — July 15, 2011 at 9:31 a.m. ( | suggest removal

frobert — July 15, 2011 at 9:28 a.m.

I think we've had this conversation before:

So, in a nutshell, show us the Supreme Court rulings that support your claims.

"We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America."

We, the people......

I think you'll find that, for example, Redstone was a military rocket adapted for NASA's use in the Mercury flights.

Saturn was a NASA project. Perhaps you can point to where it had military uses.

mr_basil_seal — July 15, 2011 at 9:55 a.m. ( | suggest removal

mr_basil_seal — July 15, 2011 at 9:55 a.m.

"The Saturn family of American rocket boosters was developed by a team of mostly German rocket scientists led by Wernher von Braun to launch heavy payloads to Earth orbit and beyond. Originally proposed as a military satellite launcher, they were adopted as the launch vehicles for the Apollo moon program."

frobert — July 15, 2011 at 10:20 a.m. ( | suggest removal

mr_basil_seal — July 15, 2011 at 9:55 a.m.

Prior to FDR extorting the rulings he wanted out of SCOTUS by threatening to ad members and "stack" the court, they held States Rights in the highest regard. Politics, not the Constitution has caused this decline in the rights outlined by the Founders.

frobert — July 15, 2011 at 10:25 a.m. ( | suggest removal

mr_basil_seal — July 15, 2011 at 9:15 a.m.

"So, tire safety standards are 'states' rights'?"

Unless they are being used on the Interstate highway system.

"So, I'll need to change tires when going over the bridge? I'm having a problem imagining the pullouts required...."

There are plenty of places I have to stop and put on a helmet.

frobert — July 15, 2011 at 10:29 a.m. ( | suggest removal

basil: I will check out the Opposing Viewpoint series. Sounds like a good resource! I do use Ebsco from home as part of my professional organization perks. Everything we do in my field requires "evidence-based" scrutiny.

nailingit: Rachel Maddow is so smart and her delivery is so warm and witty. When she interviews someone, I always feel like I am watching a private, personal conversation.

Rachel and Lawrence O'Donnell are my favorites on MSNBC right now.

manthou — July 15, 2011 at 10:31 a.m. ( | suggest removal

mr_basil_seal — July 15, 2011 at 9:55 a.m.

When NASA was formed it incorporated not only NACA but military research branches.

frobert — July 15, 2011 at 10:48 a.m. ( | suggest removal

manthou- Thanks for the free press link. Good story on News Corp/Murdoch and the possibility of bringing down Fox News. I didn't realize before I read this that it was the 9/11 victims that kicked off the investigations. This should be great stuff during the 2012 campaign and elections. The Republican propaganda machine that claims to be "fair and balanced" are no doubt soiling themselves about now.

nailingit — July 15, 2011 at 11:23 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Mrs T,

George Bush, Queen Elizabeth, and Vladimir Putin all die and go to hell. While there, they spy a red phone and ask what the phone is for. "No it's not to speak with Mr Beck" The devil tells them it is for calling back to Earth.

Putin asks to call Russia and talks for 5 minutes. When he is finished the devi l informs him that the cost is a million dollars, so Putin writes him a check.

Next Queen Elizabeth calls England and talks for 30 minutes. When she is finished the devil informs her that the cost is 6 million dollars, so she writes him a check.

Finally George Bush gets his turn and talks for 4 hours. When he is finished the devil informs him that the cost is $5.00.

When Putin hears this he goes ballistic and asks the devil why Bush got to call the USA so cheaply. The devil smiles and replies, "Since Obama took over, the country has gone to hell, so it's a local call."

Mantou, I saw the same program and yes it was excellent.

GO- If the Media would be spewing such negativity and we turned off "ALL" the media for 30 days, I really think we would be so much better off. Everytime the Dow goes up or down it's like giving people speed or valium. Most people don't even know what the DOW JONES is , except they think if it goes down the country is falling or failing.

I was so amuzzed by peole back in the Dot Com Era .. They would buy and sell sthere stocks daily and in the end 99.999% got burned.. I would hear them talk oh I made so and so much today.. Our world is so for instant gratification...

I would rather enjoy the jorney then the destination....

Have a great vacation....

rtsidethinker — July 15, 2011 at 11:41 a.m. ( | suggest removal

nailingit — July 15, 2011 at 11:23 a.m.

Get rid of opposing media first, Joseph Goebbels would be proud.

frobert — July 15, 2011 at 11:43 a.m. ( | suggest removal

manthou - I also enjoyed Maddow's interview with Bill Moyers. I certainly miss Moyers on TV. Both he and Maddow never hesitate to interview those with opposing views, and both are very respectful. They do not constantly interrupt their guests, as others do.
Looking forward to reading Moyers' book "The Conversation Continues".

Mrs_T — July 15, 2011 at 11:51 a.m. ( | suggest removal

fro...I offered no opinion on getting rid of opposing media. Good to see transpaency trumpeted. There will always be a media source at the ready for those whose standards are less than.

nailingit — July 15, 2011 at 11:57 a.m. ( | suggest removal

^^^'transparency' instead of 'transpaency'

nailingit — July 15, 2011 at 12:01 p.m. ( | suggest removal

frobert — July 15, 2011 at 10:20 a.m.
frobert — July 15, 2011 at 10:48 a.m

Your article discusses the ".. concluded that it was primarily bureaucratic" problem we were having in the space race of the time.

What you have mainly pointed out is that we have a large, overarching military.

What you haven't done is establish that NASA was for "common defense" and should have a Constitutional amendment before continuing as an entity. Which rather contradicts your first claim.

What you haven't done is establish the rest of your 'states' rights' argument.

Pure and simple, we have a founding document, the Constitution. It came about - in large part - due to our country seeing that the A. of Confederation weren't working. It was the founding fathers' intent to build a document with strong federal powers for "We the People" to unify under.

And the Supreme Court, except in a few very narrow cases, agrees. Two plus centuries of precedent.

And, you'll also note - except for some very much fringish thinking, most Americans want and enjoy the protections and programs that have been developed under that Constitution.

mr_basil_seal — July 15, 2011 at 12:02 p.m. ( | suggest removal

frobert — July 15, 2011 at 10:29 a.m.

And there are places you can't ride a bicycle.

What's your point?

So, now the tire changing pullouts need to be at every entrance and exit on I-5?

mr_basil_seal — July 15, 2011 at 12:07 p.m. ( | suggest removal

mr_basil_seal — July 15, 2011 at 12:02 p.m.

States rights exist under our Constitution, no other argument is needed past the 10th amendment.

"As a matter of fact and law, the governing rights of the States are all of those which have not been surrendered to the National Government by the Constitution or its amendments. Wisely or unwisely, people know that under the Eighteenth Amendment Congress has been given the right to legislate on this particular subject, but this is not the case in the matter of a great number of other vital problems of government, such as the conduct of public utilities, of banks, of insurance, of business, of agriculture, of education, of social welfare and of a dozen other important features. In these, Washington must not be encouraged to interfere."

"Thus, it was clear to the framers of our Constitution that the greatest possible liberty of self-government must be given to each State, and that any national administration attempting to make all laws for the whole Nation, such as was wholly practical in Great Britain, would inevitably result at some future time in a dissolution of the Union itself."

Franklin D. Roosevelt March 2, 1930

frobert — July 15, 2011 at 12:33 p.m. ( | suggest removal

mr_basil_seal — July 15, 2011 at 12:07 p.m.

"And there are places you can't ride a bicycle."

Motorcycle helmet.

frobert — July 15, 2011 at 12:37 p.m. ( | suggest removal

mr_basil_seal — July 15, 2011 at 12:07 p.m.

Sorry that was an edited version of his speech.

"As a matter of fact and law, the governing rights of the States are all of those which have not been surrendered to the National Government by the Constitution or its amendments. Wisely or unwisely, people know that under the Eighteenth Amendment Congress has been given the right to legislate on this particular subject, but this is not the case in the matter of a great number of other vital problems of government,"

"The United States Constitution has proved itself the most marvelously elastic compilation of rules of government ever written. Drawn up at a time when the population of this country was practically confined to a fringe along our Atlantic coast, combining into one nation for the first time scattered and feeble States, newly released from the autocratic control of the English Government, its preparation involved innumerable compromises between the different Commonwealths. Fortunately for the stability of our Nation, it was already apparent that the vastness of the territory presented geographical and climatic differences which gave to the States wide differences in the nature of their industry, their agriculture and their commerce. Already the New England States had turned toward shipping and manufacturing, while the South was devoting itself almost exclusively to the easier agriculture which a milder climate permitted."

frobert — July 15, 2011 at 12:59 p.m. ( | suggest removal

frobert — July 15, 2011 at 12:37 p.m.

Bike, portions of I-5

mr_basil_seal — July 15, 2011 at 1:02 p.m. ( | suggest removal

frobert — July 15, 2011 at 12:33 p.m.

As I said, two plus centuries of SC and legislation and the will of the people.

So, one person's opinion in a speech really isn't proof of your 'stats' rights' claim. That you are using FDR's opinion is more a logical fallacy than a supporting point.

As I said, there are a couple of pro states' rights SC rulings and they are always trotted out; why didn't you bring them to the table?

mr_basil_seal — July 15, 2011 at 1:07 p.m. ( | suggest removal

mr_basil_seal — July 15, 2011 at 1:07 p.m.

Supreme Court? Like I said earlier, the precedents cited came about under extortion.

Denying the tenth amendment is a weak argument for you.

Legislation? I'm sure you could come up with many if not hundreds of examples of unconstitutional legislation.

Will of the people? Although I couldn't find a recent poll, as of a couple of years ago 77% of the population had a positive view of States rights as opposed to 15% negative.

frobert — July 15, 2011 at 1:37 p.m. ( | suggest removal

The cheif executive officer of the Dow Jones Co, Les Hinton just resigned due to the Murdoch scandal.

This could be the beginning of the end for the Wall Street Journal.

nailingit — July 15, 2011 at 1:52 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Wether you have a 401K or any other investments your age and "disposable" income ie investment income determine what I do as should it most people. The older you get certainly the more safe your investments but there are some great Bond Funds that have been around for over 30-40 even 50 years that have weathered every storm we've had including the past 3-4 years and post dotcom and 9/11.. I haven't changed my strategy yet from what I've been doing the past 10 years.. That strategy though will change in 5-10 years.

Most people who have 401 or any other type of plan just let it sit where it was when they started with the company they are working for and those companies don't hire many people to come in seni or annually to show them any different.. You don't need allot of many to start investing, you just need to start otherwise you won't have anything when you want to retire...Alley, have a great weekend..

vanwadreamer — July 15, 2011 at 3:23 p.m. ( | suggest removal

frobert — July 15, 2011 at 1:37 p.m.

*Supreme Court? Like I said earlier, the precedents cited came about under extortion.*

Guess we need our memory refreshed; when did this happen?

*Denying the tenth amendment is a weak argument for you.*

?????? Guess we need our memory refreshed.....

*Legislation? I'm sure you could come up with many if not hundreds of examples of unconstitutional legislation.*

Oddly that is your argument yet you don't bring any to bear.

*Will of the people? Although I couldn't find a recent poll, as of a couple of years ago 77% of the population had a positive view of States rights as opposed to 15% negative.*

Actually, the question was " do you have a
positive or negative reaction to the word/phrase"

And you might check the percentage of people who are sure JC is going to return.....

So, no constitutional scholar's discussion, no court cases to prove your point, nothing about NASA needing an amendment.


BTW, that was a 2010 Pew poll. And doesn't it strike you as a bit odd that the 'states' rights' crowd didn't make hay about that finding?

mr_basil_seal — July 15, 2011 at 3:35 p.m. ( | suggest removal

mr_basil_seal — July 15, 2011 at 3:35 p.m.

“to protect historic spheres of state sovereignty” and “the possibility that ‘a single courageous State may, if its citizens choose, serve as a laboratory; and try novel social and economic experiments without risk to the rest of the country’
Sandra Day O'Conner

“productive activities like manufacturing and agriculture…. In the early days of the Republic, it would have been unthinkable that Congress could prohibit the local cultivation, possession, and consumption of marijuana…. If the activity is purely intrastate, then it may not be regulated under the Commerce Clause.”
Clarence Thomas

To uphold the Government's contentions here, we would have to pile inference upon inference in a manner that would bid fair to convert congressional authority under the Commerce Clause to a general police power of the sort retained by the States.
William Rehnquist

Do you consider these "Constitutional Scholars" or do only liberal opinions count?

frobert — July 15, 2011 at 4:50 p.m. ( | suggest removal

mr_basil_seal — July 15, 2011 at 3:35 p.m.

"Guess we need our memory refreshed; when did this happen?"

NLRB v. Jones & Laughlin Steel Corp., 301 U.S. 1 (1937)
April 12, 1937

"Roosevelt announced that he was going to ask Congress to pass a bill enabling the president to expand the Supreme Court by adding one new judge, up to a maximum of six, for every current judge over the age of 70."
Febuary 2, 1937

frobert — July 15, 2011 at 5:02 p.m. ( | suggest removal

mr_basil_seal — July 15, 2011 at 3:35 p.m.

According to 158 acts of congress have been ruled unconstitutional.

some laws not yet ruled unconstitutional, but commonly held as such.
36 U.S.C. §172 Pledge of allegiance to the flag; manner of delivery

36 U.S.C. §176 Respect for flag

47 U.S.C. §303a Standards for children's television programming

47 U.S.C. §227 Fax equipment-It shall be unlawful for any person within the United States - to initiate any communication using a telephone facsimile machine,

36 U.S.C. §410 Propaganda activities prohibited

47 U.S.C. §399 Editorializing . . . prohibited

frobert — July 15, 2011 at 5:21 p.m. ( | suggest removal

frobert — July 15, 2011 at 4:50 p.m.

You do realize that your posts don't address your claims, right?

Yup, there are acts of Congress that are ruled unconstitutional. As are bills and laws passed by towns, counties, and states.

What you haven't done is show a 'states' rights' issue that has been supported by a SC ruling.

Remember your original contention?

*Why do our democrat and republican politicians even believe that regulation of cannabis is even within the intended reach of their power.*

*"We cannot claim to be a free people as long as we look to government to protect us from ourselves."
Well, Civil Rights authorized under the 14th, FAA authorized under the Commerce Clause, NASA originally fell under common defense(although now should be authorized by amendment). The others fall under States rights. The Government should not just usurp State authority the Constitution has a mechanism to expand Federal authority if it is needed.*

So, three uncited writings by SC judges and a list of laws ruled unconstitutional...... Don't support your claims that the issues are 'states' rights' and thus automatically are a sign of over reaching by a federal government.

mr_basil_seal — July 16, 2011 at 7:01 a.m. ( | suggest removal

"In 2008, with over $14 billion in sales, antipsychotics became the single top-selling therapeutic class of prescription drugs in the United States, surpassing drugs used to treat high cholesterol and acid reflux."(Al Jazera)

Yet we still have lunatics everywhere...throw in the incidence and propensity for violence, mix it all up, and you have a place called, the separate, yet United, States.

mangoboy — July 16, 2011 at 7:16 a.m. ( | suggest removal

"To my virtual friends here in The Columbian la la land... If you have money in a 401k do what the first commenter on this thread will do temporarily....remember you already lost half of your money and it has taken you 3 years to recover...."

While true, it's only a part of the story. While the bulk of my investments have recovered to 2007 levels, the money I dumped into these accounts when the Dow was looking at 7000 ( and I dumped in every penny I could find) has almost doubled. So all in all, I did pretty good.

However, with this debt ceiling thing looming, the markets so high with nothing domestically to warrant this level, and China-the present economic engine- fighting inflation, I'll be moving the remaining half next week (moved the first part two months ago) into virtually risk-free venues. Won't make much-if anything-but I'll sleep at night knowing I won't get gouged again by the manipulators of the markets.

mrd — July 16, 2011 at 7:20 a.m. ( | suggest removal

The hunker down mentality will slow the recovery. Don't blame you though.

mangoboy — July 16, 2011 at 7:32 a.m. ( | suggest removal

mr_basil_seal — July 16, 2011 at 7:01 a.m

And you have said nothing to refute my opinion other than the government ignores states rights so they never existed. Kind of Orwellian isn't it?

frobert — July 16, 2011 at 7:55 a.m. ( | suggest removal

mr_basil_seal — July 16, 2011 at 7:01 a.m

Do you realize that prior to the Harrison Act in 1914, it was considered a basic human right to make one's own decisions on medication?

frobert — July 16, 2011 at 8:03 a.m. ( | suggest removal

frobert — July 16, 2011 at 7:55 a.m.

Well, first; You made the claims. Rather extraordinary claims.

And you haven't brought any evidence in to support them.

You have every right to make your claims, but wouldn't it make more sense to ground them in some sort of rational thought and with enough evidence that shows there is some support (as in legal & Constitutional research) for them?

mr_basil_seal — July 16, 2011 at 8:08 a.m. ( | suggest removal

mr_basil_seal — July 16, 2011 at 8:08 a.m.

My claims are perfectly valid and not extraordinary at all, they are just from a conservative point of view therefore you insist there is no validity. The liberal mindset never ceases to amaze me, you are enlightened so any point of view outside of your narrow view is false.

frobert — July 16, 2011 at 8:15 a.m. ( | suggest removal

alley- Are you having a change of heart about the corporatocracy the Ron Pauls as well as the "conservatives" bring to the table?

nailingit — July 16, 2011 at 9:04 a.m. ( | suggest removal

It does boil down to the lesser of evils. The Dems need every vote they can get next election.

Just think of the alternative. A majored republican congress and Pres, just like the first six years of the Bush admin. when they enacted policies that are bringing our country down. No side is perfect. Never have been or will be. Gop's only answer is to return to the Bush years.

nailingit — July 16, 2011 at 9:19 a.m. ( | suggest removal

alleycat — July 16, 2011 at 9:08 a.m

Although I have plenty of negatives for the modern "conservatives" lets concentrate on the "liberals" for now.
Was it the liberal or conservative Justices that upheld federal marijuana laws? It was the liberals, so how are the conservatives the ones that want you to surrender your liberties, was it the liberal or conservatives that recently upheld freedom of speech and the right to keep and bear arms? Liberals are the ones that want us to surrender our liberties. Liberals are no smarter or well read than conservatives, that is just more propaganda.

frobert — July 16, 2011 at 9:25 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Liberals...conservatives...progressives....They are labels and most fall in the middle except for extremists like fro and the politicians who are paid off to spout otherwise. fro....balance yourself out a bit.

nailingit — July 16, 2011 at 9:31 a.m. ( | suggest removal

I agree to some of the libertarian's view points whole heartedly. I voted for Andre Marrou, I believe it was back in 92'. I was what I sometimes refer to others as low info. I wanted to vote for someone as well as party that espoused individual freedom and liberties. I didn't research it enough to know all the corporate bs and freedoms it actually seeks to constrain.

nailingit — July 16, 2011 at 9:56 a.m. ( | suggest removal

alleycat — July 16, 2011 at 9:46 a.m.

Modern republicans are anything but conservative, Laws such as the law enforcement protection act that create a protected class of people are unconscionable. Federal abortion laws along with DOMA violate the very foundation of conservatism (seeing these as states rights issues does not) in short many that claim to be conservative are not. "Conservatives" hold up Jefferson and Adams as the fathers of conservatism, and then ignore all of their teachings concerning the evils of religions involvement in government. True Conservatism is noble along with Liberals desire to help their fellow man, where liberalism fails is concession of liberties to the government for someones own good.

frobert — July 16, 2011 at 10:07 a.m. ( | suggest removal

After 8 years of Bush they try to put Sarah Palin in the VP's seat. Now it's Bachman. These republicans are beyond irresponsible. GOP/BIG GOVERNMENT are stripping women's rights to affordable healthcare, not allowing collective bargaining, their leadership refers to gays as less than human...[Santorum compares homosexual relationships with animals mating] and sign pledges promising to discriminate. Just in the last week several republican controlled states have put forth or enacted legislation to suppress voter turnout by requiring various forms of ID to vote in areas that have high dem turnout and almost zero voter fraud.

The lines can't be blurred anymore if we want our country on the right track.

Some easily accessed minds will fall prey to snake oil salesman like Beck and Limbaugh. Many of these people are seeking much more than a direction for our country. It's the self serving faux "elitism" that so many in the middle class fall prey to. The wannabees that punish themselves for not attaining what they wanted in life, and grabbing on to a radical self serving message in order to bring the rest of the people into their mediocrity.

nailingit — July 16, 2011 at 10:19 a.m. ( | suggest removal


Elaborate on your suspicious vehicle posting and person posting.. Maybe you can get some help from the basement dwellers... Why would said person be taking notes and such??Very curious..

vanwadreamer — July 16, 2011 at 12:32 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Its probably a real estate investor taking notes on a foreclosure. These opportunists are everywhere, like bottom feeding scavengers.

mangoboy — July 16, 2011 at 1:05 p.m. ( | suggest removal

mangoboy — July 16, 2011 at 1:05 p.m.

They like to be called real estate investors, usually the proper term is equity skimmer.

frobert — July 16, 2011 at 1:08 p.m. ( | suggest removal

I can think of quite a few other ways to evaluate people other than the political party they belong to. Why label yourself or let anyone else put a label on you? That in itself is a refutation of individuality and the freedom to be yourself. You have to be brainwashed in one way or another to buy into a political party ideology as part of your identity. I am sticking with, "none of the above."

mangoboy — July 16, 2011 at 1:21 p.m. ( | suggest removal

equity skimmer? Nice spin.

anyone who buys foreclosed homes in this day and age is probably guilty of receiving stolen property.

mangoboy — July 16, 2011 at 1:42 p.m. ( | suggest removal

If anyone doubts for a minute if there is much difference between the two mainstreams, compare their national conventions. They both use the same fill in the blanks form letter choreography. You have a choice. chocolate or vanilla!

mangoboy — July 16, 2011 at 1:48 p.m. ( | suggest removal

alley...I've had a few people either stop down or in front my house in the last year and have confronted them to find out they were real estate related. Good to be vigilant!

alley and mango...both have faults but ideologies polar. Not to be involved, to place both parties in a mix isn't prudent. Alley you've espoused common sense liberalism. have to see the corporate takeover and infringement on our freedoms taking place. The Democrats are not responsible for this. At least not anywhere near the degree that republicans are. My God man...look at what they've done in Ohio, Wisconsin, Kansas, Michigan, Minnesota and so many other states. Subverting the fairness in which our system dictates, and exercising authoritarian rule over the masses.

To be "independent" is too easy. No responsibility comes with it and you can sit back and bitch about both parties being at fault and not change anything or take any heat...and you would be right on many levels.

alley...nothings perfect. The liberal concepts you espouse are fundamental to the democratic platform. They are toxic to conservatives. To work within a party that has many of your basic precepts in play is productive. We have to unite against this pervasive radicalized socially engineered culture that these "conservatives" are forcing us into.

nailingit — July 16, 2011 at 2:04 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Blurring the lines is much of what caused the 2010 election debacle. That's the republican's game. You know...they just want to "save' medicare. Let's get it right this time around.

nailingit — July 16, 2011 at 2:08 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Allen...if the WSJ goes down, that right wing talkin' machine will be right behind it.

Is that your real pic?

nailingit — July 16, 2011 at 2:12 p.m. ( | suggest removal


The democrats and republicans have basically shared power for the last 30 years. You would think union membership would have at least stayed constant, given that balance. But it has declined precipitously. Democrats have fallen and can't get up...

mangoboy — July 16, 2011 at 2:49 p.m. ( | suggest removal

alleycat — July 16, 2011 at 2:38 p.m.

The republicans have their problems, however to try to single them out as the cause of our problems is ludicrous, republicans have given us emancipation, civil rights and woman's suffrage. Democrats have given us the trail of tears, the kkk and an end to states rights. If you truly stand up for the liberty you claim, how can you disregard the one of the two parties that tries to support liberties? If you look at recent Supreme Court decisions, you will see that only republican appointees stand for individual liberties at all, not enough, but democrat appointees almost universally condemn the individual's rights.

frobert — July 16, 2011 at 2:54 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Amen alleycat. The republican party is dismantling itself as we speak. Given our political choices and the framework our society dictates, voting democrat makes sense to me. I don't agree with everything...but much I do. A free society needs to be protected from within our borders as well as outside them. These present day republicans are more than dangerous. They are presently doing and seeking to erode principles, enact legislation which fly in the face of the very core of personal responsibility and freedom that America trumpets. The only viable machine that is in place to stop this hoard of filth is the democratic party. Let's hope the president shows more resolve than he has in the past but remember, the embarrassment that George Bush was. It could be and has been...

...much worse. Nixon, Reagan, the two Bushies...

Even the Bedtime for Bonzo guy raised taxes eleven times during his eight years in office. You don't hear em' talking about that too much.

nailingit — July 16, 2011 at 2:56 p.m. ( | suggest removal

hey is July 16, 2011...the year of your parties lord.

nailingit — July 16, 2011 at 2:59 p.m. ( | suggest removal

fro-In a world where you have to vote, knowing what you do today,(you know what I mean)...

Would you vote for George Bush or Barack Obama?

nailingit — July 16, 2011 at 3:02 p.m. ( | suggest removal we just sit back and bitch about it? Or support a viable party who by and large espouse what we believe in.

nailingit — July 16, 2011 at 3:07 p.m. ( | suggest removal

nailingit — July 16, 2011 at 3:02 p.m.

I make it a practice not to vote for the lesser of two evils.
Bush gave us war, the Patriot act and Guantanamo bay, Obama made a lot of promises however he now "owns" these mistakes.

frobert — July 16, 2011 at 3:09 p.m. ( | suggest removal

I thought you would dodge the answer. Forget your "practice". This isn't a real election.

If you were tied up, soaked in gasoline and some black hat with a zippo were at the ready, a promise that your families demise will take place if you did not make a decision, that the planet Jupiter would implode causing the largest black hole in the Universe and all creation were about to be destroyed (my god it's worse than pulling teeth to get these conservatives to fess up) AND Hamburger Helper was to be your last taste of food before the roast.....

Bush or Obama?

nailingit — July 16, 2011 at 3:26 p.m. ( | suggest removal


The per capita energy consumption in the US has been fairly constant for the last 40 years. Does that reflect any kind of victory for the democrats in reducing energy use? We have to do much better then maintain the status quo. What about energy independence? An even worse record.

mangoboy — July 16, 2011 at 3:30 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Here we have the Republicans boasting about how patriotic they are as Americans, yet they quickly outsource their production to other countries. So no loyalty to other Americans who have fought for the country and need a job. And the naive democratic workers who feel "entitled" cannot believe they are passed over. Poor saps...

mangoboy — July 16, 2011 at 3:43 p.m. ( | suggest removal

mango...worse record than who? What parties platform speaks loudest and doing the most to solve this problem of energy dependence. Both parties have been weak on this issue. Victories for Democrats? LOL...Dems need many more. It's not about the win loss column when it comes to personal viewpoints, it's about whose initiatives you would support in this area. In this climate there is a stranglehold on spending. And without investment nothing is going to get done. The right knows this. That's why you never hear them complain about debt when they're in office. They spend like kids in a candy store and always promise if they get the chance again it will be different! LOL. If you believe that then I've got some trickle down economics I'll sell to ya real cheap!

nailingit — July 16, 2011 at 3:53 p.m. ( | suggest removal

frobert — July 16, 2011 at 8:15 a.m

.. from a conservative point of view therefore you insist there is no validity."

No. You leap over a chasm of logic there.

There is "no validity" without evidence.

Which you haven't brought.

So, easy enough to make any claims and pronounce any opinions you care to.

But, if you can't bring anything as support you might as well be trying to convince us as to the type of cheese the moon is made of.

What's even more incredible is that I told you there were a few rare SC cases that could support your claims and they were the ones trotted out every time.

Yet you don't even bother to do that modicum of research.

mr_basil_seal — July 16, 2011 at 3:55 p.m. ( | suggest removal

frobert — July 16, 2011 at 8:03 a.m.

Harrison Narcotics Tax Act

Walk us through your argument on that one.

mr_basil_seal — July 16, 2011 at 3:59 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Naive democratic workers? Are you aware of the recalls and elections that are happening in Wisconsin alone? Are you a "poor sap" who benefits from SS Medicare or Medicaid? The "poor saps" are the ones that don't get their heads involved in what's going on.

Easy to sit on a pedestal and judge. It's another to speak up and take a stand on some very basic American freedoms.

nailingit — July 16, 2011 at 4 p.m. ( | suggest removal

fro-I've asked you about Obama v Bush...bachman....I believe lack the resolve to answer what should be the easiest of questions. Are your words just words? Or is this ideology something you believe in. Do you opt out at voting time or do you consistently throw your vote to the Ross Perot's of "rugged"...LOL American individual self interests? Will you answer undisputed history? Did you or did you not vote for George Bush in 2000 and/or2004. If not then who?

I've got a feeling that many "independents" and "libertarians" use their label as an excuse not to vote...then bitch because a process that they chose not to participate in is screwed up.

nailingit — July 16, 2011 at 4:11 p.m. ( | suggest removal

mr_basil_seal — July 16, 2011 at 3:55 p.m.
You refuse to consider facts such as the tenth amendment. That in and of itself proves that the founders intended for states to have rights. To prohibit alcohol required an amendment, however marijuana takes the director of the DEA through administrative authority.

frobert — July 16, 2011 at 4:20 p.m. ( | suggest removal

mr_basil_seal — July 16, 2011 at 3:59 p.m.

The Harrison act although called a tax act, did not allow anyone except a physician to prescribe opiates, this was the start of our current system of "physicians welfare" that requires many if not most medications to be prescribed. Prior to the Harrison act it was considered a basic human right to make these decisions for themselves.

frobert — July 16, 2011 at 4:28 p.m. ( | suggest removal

nailingit — July 16, 2011 at 4:11 p.m.

Starting with Carter, I have voted in every election, how I voted however is a personal matter, and not open to discussion.

frobert — July 16, 2011 at 4:32 p.m. ( | suggest removal

frobert — July 16, 2011 at 4:20 p.m
*tenth amendment. That in and of itself proves that the founders intended for states to have rights.*

Your argument wasn't rather or not there were state's rights, but that there was a federal overreaching of them.

Which you've now spend a couple of days not being able to prove.

*To prohibit alcohol required an amendment, however marijuana takes the director of the DEA through administrative authority.*

This, and your Harrison Act reading seems a bit far afield. You might want to go back and read the history books.

mr_basil_seal — July 16, 2011 at 4:46 p.m. ( | suggest removal

mr_basil_seal — July 16, 2011 at 4:46 p.m.

from the Harrison act.
"(b) To the sale, dispensing, or distributing of any of the aforesaid drugs by a dealer to a consumer under under and in pursuance of a written prescription issued by a physician, dentist, or veterinary surgeon registered under this Act. Provided, however, That such prescription shall be dated as of the day on which signed and shall be signed by the physician, dentist, or veterinary surgeon who shall have issued the same: And provided further, That such dealer shall preserve such prescription for a period of two years from the day on which such prescription is filled in such a way as to be readily accessible by the officers, agents, employees, and officials hereinbefore mentioned."
Making this the first drug with a federally required prescription.

" The Administrator of the DEA, by authority of the Attorney General, has the ultimate authority for the decision as to whether or not a substance should be controlled under this provision of the CSA. "
Laura M. Nagel
Deputy Assistant Administrator Drug Enforcement Administration.

frobert — July 16, 2011 at 5:11 p.m. ( | suggest removal

mr_basil_seal — July 16, 2011 at 4:46 p.m.

The statements of FDR outlining his view of states rights, compared to what we have now makes a clear argument that they have being overreached today.

My opinion is clearly supported, your refusal to consider compelling evidence, in no way counters my argument.

frobert — July 16, 2011 at 5:17 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Thanks fro...:))

nailingit — July 16, 2011 at 5:45 p.m. ( | suggest removal

To include the pretend vote LOL!

Sometimes humility can make us stronger, if we don't fear humiliation.

nailingit — July 16, 2011 at 5:48 p.m. ( | suggest removal

frobert — July 16, 2011 at 5:11 p.m

And that drug was....?

Your quote has no bearing on your claim that the federal gov't has overreached their powers in regard to states' rights.

The SC court opinion by William Rehnquist addressed a misreading of the law. Note that 3 years later the law was changed and hasn't been successfully challenged.

I do applaud you in actually trying to bring something to the table to support your claims. Far too many cons think all they need do is make a claim and it is true. However, like I said, the Constitution was written with the knowledge that the Articles of Confederation were too weak for the needs of our nation. That was 'founders' intent' And while there are a couple of SC rulings that could be used as support for your position, on the whole, looking over 2+ centuries of law making and court rulings, your POV doesn't hold.

Sorta like that whole 'states should be in charge of tire standards' you tried to argue.

mr_basil_seal — July 16, 2011 at 6:48 p.m. ( | suggest removal

mr_basil_seal — July 16, 2011 at 6:48 p.m

Your diallelus argument only goes to prove that you cannot come up with a logical rebuttle.

frobert — July 16, 2011 at 7:01 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Sorry should have been rebuttal

frobert — July 16, 2011 at 7:03 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Hey Boss,

next week they are opening a new Popeye's Chicken next to Del Taco on hwy 99 by Walmart. I really love their chicken, it will be a great addition.

hawkeye — July 16, 2011 at 9:05 p.m. ( | suggest removal

hawk...and who says Vancouver doesn't have the best places to dine! A finger topped with a taco! Some Guac and hot sauce...oh yeah

nailingit — July 17, 2011 at 12:27 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Allen- There's a lot of people turning on Murdoch. If the executives at NewsCorp share the same integrity gene pool as most of the Fox news pundits...they will eat each other alive.

nailingit — July 17, 2011 at 9:10 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Can't do it cat, don't need a nap this early.

hawkeye — July 17, 2011 at 10:40 a.m. ( | suggest removal

I hear what you're saying hawkeye. Soccer puts me on the nods like junk to the ie. This match has pretty cool dynamics with it. Almost an Olympic feel. But then again the Olympic socc......(yawn)....zzz

Not to sound unpatriotic but much of my heart is going out to the lovely ladies across the pacific.

hawkeye I understand President Obama tweeted the ladies team and wished them well. Perhaps we should throw a party for both teams as an act of good will. A bi-partisan, bi-cultural, bi-girl affair.

nailingit — July 17, 2011 at 1:04 p.m. ( | suggest removal

!!!GOAL!!! USA!!!

nailingit — July 17, 2011 at 1:10 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Goal Japan!!!!!!!

nailingit — July 17, 2011 at 1:21 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Exiciting 2nd half alley...even though I snoozed through the third goal! After all the crap Japan has had to deal with as of late, this might lift their spirits a tad. Exciting for soccer.

At the awards presentation the women reminded me of the elevator operator in a great horror/sci-fi/futuristic Japanese movie 'Hellevator'. Fun movie.

nailingit — July 17, 2011 at 3:07 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Say wha?????

I'm away from the C for a couple of days..(just under that three-day mark but that's okay)...and it looks like a friggin' Democratic Party Convention around here! Talk about the Repub bashing!!! Whatever happened to people working together to solve the nation's problems? Instead, all I'm reading is bashing of each others' ideals, posturing by those who have some kind of inferiority complex that refuse to be proven wrong! Sheesh!!! About the only thing worth discussing is the women's soccer game...drat, US Women lost in a crazy shootout. Oh well, they're still the best of the best. Hey, at least the Portland Timbers FINALLY won an away game! Hey Lou and Manthou...Timbers beat ChiTown on Chicago's turf.......hehehe!!! (yes, I'm rubbing it in, lol.)

Hey Alleycat, did you ever figure out who the guy was in the Subaru Outback??? I'd be checkin' my credit history about now if I were you. You just never know. Someone could have been using your identity and bought a car or something with your credit and named your current address as the residence then never made a payment. (This has happened to two people I know.) Either that or you've made some nervous people with your public statements which wouldn't surprise me nowadays. Did you ever think about going out and asking the guy or even calling the popo about a suspicious vehicle?

Oh well...gang, continue on with your...whatever it is! I'll be checking in again maybe later...maybe again in a couple of days. Life is nice away from the controversy of the internet and news channel paparazzi schtuff. Politics hasn't changed in 2 1/2 days...probably never will in the next 10 years, either...and the voice of us plebeians is being heard over deaf eared politicos...YAWN!!!

I'd rather enjoy life rather than sit in front of a computer monitor! See ya's!!!

goldenoldie — July 17, 2011 at 4:28 p.m. ( | suggest removal

frobert — July 16, 2011 at 5:17 p.m.

*The statements of FDR outlining his view of states rights, compared to what we have now*

Well, choosing one statement by a president from 80 years ago isn't, by a long patch, proof.

So, try again, SC rulings would be a good source.... You know, actual law cases proving your point.

makes a clear argument that they have being overreached today.

My opinion is clearly supported, your refusal to consider compelling evidence, in no way counters my argument.

mr_basil_seal — July 18, 2011 at 7:06 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Something doesn't make sense, Alleycat. Only liberals drive Subarus. Was there a coexist bumper sticker on the car? Liberals are all for peace and non violence, you know. And they would never do anything wrong.

mangoboy — July 18, 2011 at 7:07 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Good morning to you too, Alleycat. On Friday...I didn't say I wouldn't be back and for what it's worth, yesterday's comment was only reflecting the fact that I won't be in the forum as often. Busy rest of the summer, you know. An addiction??? Oh Pshaw!!!! I only post on things I find interesting or people I want to learn more about on their opinions, that's all.'s quite unnerving what you went through. Hopefully it's nothing to worry about. Maybe the guy used to live in your place and was sitting there thinking about memories. My sister and mom before my dear mom passed, stopped at the house my mom was born in and grew up in. They sat in front for at least a half hour, discussing the old homestead when a resident came out and talked to them. After they explained everything, the owner of the house who came out to talk invited them in and showed what remodeling was done. It was a wonderful last peek for my mom who died two years later...and my sister got a better feeling about family history notes from my mom and wrote it down in her memoirs to be logged with the ancestry files.

You just never know, just never know. said get ready for economic armageddon II. What is different from economic armageddon I? If I was prepared for that and have strengthened my I ready???

goldenoldie — July 18, 2011 at 7:09 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Okay mangoboy...I REALLY, REALLY didn't need that shower of coffee all over my monitor! You made me bust up with that comment!!!

goldenoldie — July 18, 2011 at 7:11 a.m. ( | suggest removal

One of my favorite songs....It so fits what is happening to so many people.

goldenoldie — July 18, 2011 at 7:15 a.m. ( | suggest removal

mr_basil_seal — July 18, 2011 at 7:06 a.m.
So far you have put forth no argument, you have just denied the existence of the tenth amendment. What is clear is it never would have been incorporated if it was intended to be ignored.

frobert — July 18, 2011 at 7:25 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Over the course of the 20th century, fantasies of persecution became the defining modern delusion, suggest a pair of studies on long-term trends in psychosis.

The first, published Mar. 18 in the International Journal of Social Psychiatry, was based on 102 patient records from a psychiatric hospital in western Pennsylvania. Randomly picked and representing each decade of the 20th century, the records were interpreted as glimpses of each era’s mental atmosphere.

From these glimpses, a fuller picture emerged. After 1950, delusions involving persecution — variations on the “someone is out to get me” theme — were four times more frequent. Feelings of being spied upon increased five times over...
(Wired Magazine)

mangoboy — July 18, 2011 at 7:34 a.m. ( | suggest removal

What's even more disconcerting about the information in that article by the International Journal of Social Psychiatry mangoboy, is the last paragraph:

""Whether or not the cultural and technological shifts of the internet age represent a continuation of these 20th-century themes, or will produce its own unique delusions, is an unresolved question."""

It sounds like there's a distinct possibility that things are going to get worse in their perspective. Maybe I'm reading too much into the article...then again, maybe not.

goldenoldie — July 18, 2011 at 7:43 a.m. ( | suggest removal

GO, going by that statement, it sounds to me that they have no idea what might happen and that they are trying to cover their own rears since their science really has no solid answers.

hawkeye — July 18, 2011 at 8:21 a.m. ( | suggest removal

London's top cop resigned over the Murdoch scandal this weekend. It will be more than interesting to see how deep this goes into the already highly suspect tabloid faux news of Fox News. The years that Beck, Hannity, Palin, Kasich, huckerbee and so many other Fox News employees have been allowed and instructed to skew the truth in order to shore up the radical racist base of the Republican party could be drawing to a close. Let the investigations begin and charge Murdoch with the costs. It's not hard to understand why so many low info voters depend on the "fair and balanced" folks at Fox, I'm sure more "media" will rise to take it's place if it falls.

nailingit — July 18, 2011 at 8:28 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Yeah doesn't look too good for FoxNewsChannel and all the other companies attached to Murdoch. Doesn't matter who said what or how it was said. The damage has been done...and you've got it right. They were allowed AND instructed..maybe reverse the order even.

goldenoldie — July 18, 2011 at 8:43 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Well folks...the numbers speak for themselves this morning. Gold topped over 1600, silver over 40 and DJIA has already dropped over 170 points. Not sounding like too good of a day unless you own gold and silver although oil and gas prices on the stock market are both headed down. Maybe as an addendum to my previous link, I'll share this link for those who feel like they're going batty today.

goldenoldie — July 18, 2011 at 8:46 a.m. ( | suggest removal

The pundits at Fox news must be scrambling. Beck was already canned and the others will have a hard time finding credible work. Most likely relegated to tabloids such as National Enquirer. There will always be those that watch and listen to see and hear only what feeds into their preconceived ideas and agenda's, it's the gullible and young that might be spared to some degree.

nailingit — July 18, 2011 at 8:51 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Well Nailingit...with you around, you'll try to keep everyone on the mark, right??? Just teasin'. You're right, though. When people hear what they want to hear, it's the other garbage which gets pounded into their heads which is dangerous. Quite frankly...when Beck left Fox, that was the best day of my life. You know why that is Nailingit??? Because I stopped watching Fox...along with MSNBC, CNN and all those other repetitive news channels who try their best to brainwash everyone no matter what the subject is. Funny how they call themselves News Channels, huh! Oh and BTW....I don't subscribe to GB's email newsletters and don't visit his website either. Bet that surprised you, huh! I've never watched Huckabee, Palin or any of the others except I did try to watch Hannity...was bored to tears. I don't like watching anyone like Blitzer on CNN or Nancy Grace (ewww...just got a sick feeling on that one). In fact...I find them ALL a waste of my time. About the only thing I watch now is BBC and PBS Newshour if I want my international news.

Life's good away from brainwashing channels...really good. Hey, if you ever want to hear the REAL news...check out the international channels. Some of them have English tickers to read as they tell the news, too.

goldenoldie — July 18, 2011 at 9 a.m. ( | suggest removal

frobert — July 18, 2011 at 7:25 a.m.

Quote where in this thread I've ".. denied the existence of the tenth amendment."

On the other hand, all you have brought is a couple of short quotes ( uncited) from a couple of weakly related to the topic SC rulings out of the thousands of rulings over the past two + hundred years of law.

And an opinion from one president.

And a misplaced description of how legislating the use of opium shows how, in your brain, the federal government 'overreached' its powers.

But, in three days, what you haven't been able to show is how any of your paltry 'evidence' is proof of the federal government not meeting the law of the land, 10th amemdment or any other part of the Constitution.

So, a brief review: We had a form of government that was stronger on states rights - The Articles of Confederation. Even in those simpler times it quickly became obvious that for our nation to be strong we needed a stronger, more unified, country. Hence, the Constitution. As a nod back to the A. Confederation, the 10th was added, but it didn't cede powers back to the states, just clarified what was / is in other places in the Constitution.

Founding Fathers' Intent.

Signed as the law of the land.

Two + centuries of law clarifying that intent.

And reasons why NASA didn't / doesn't need an amendment to continue.

And reasons why we have national tire standards.

mr_basil_seal — July 18, 2011 at 9:05 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Uh we go again with the "I'm right and you're not" game! Too much posturing for me. I'm outta here! Buh Bye! Adio! Auf Wiedersehen! Ciao!

goldenoldie — July 18, 2011 at 9:11 a.m. ( | suggest removal

mr_basil_seal — July 18, 2011 at 9:05 a.m.

"The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people."

Out of curiosity do you share the "Liberals" disdain for the 1st,2nd and 4th amendments? (yes I realize that "Conservatives" do not have a stellar track record on the 4th either.

frobert — July 18, 2011 at 9:15 a.m. ( | suggest removal

frobert — July 18, 2011 at 9:15 a.m.

Why are you:

attempting to label

changing topic

Not addressing, by showing evidence, a spurious claim:

frobert — July 18, 2011 at 7:25 a.m.

Quote where in this thread I've ".. denied the existence of the tenth amendment."

mr_basil_seal — July 18, 2011 at 9:22 a.m. ( | suggest removal

It's too easy and not correct goldenoldie to lump all the news stations and political parties into one lump and say their all corrupt. Spending much time overseas I watched many international news sources. I sure would not depend on them to educate me about our countries politics!!!

BBC, SKY News...and others aren't very informative or nuanced when it comes to American politics. Most international sources that I have watched and read tend to demean or minimize our Country to some degree. For American news...I'll stick with American sources!

Some brains need a good wash. It's the water you have to watch out for!

nailingit — July 18, 2011 at 9:22 a.m. ( | suggest removal

goldenoldie- I used to read the International Tribune, a product of the NY Times quite a bit. Excellent publication for International news and retains good insight on the home front.

nailingit — July 18, 2011 at 9:29 a.m. ( | suggest removal

mr_basil_seal — July 18, 2011 at 9:22 a.m

changing topic?

Look at my original point of questioning the federal governments authority to regulate intrastate cannabis, and the states authority to protect people from themselves. My point is quite clear with both legal precedent and concurrence of legal scholars. I respect your differing opinion, and although you haven't, I concede that you can bring forth precedent and legal scholars, that in no way diminishes the firm grounds for my opinion.

My questions concerning your view on the other rights, is quite valid and has bearing on the "liberal" commitment to individual liberties.

In case you are wondering the reason I use parentheses and refuse to capitalize liberal and conservative is because they have become unrecognizable shadows of their roots.

frobert — July 18, 2011 at 9:57 a.m. ( | suggest removal

frobert — July 18, 2011 at 9:57 a.m

I must have missed several posts:

"My point is quite clear with both legal precedent..."

Really? I remember a couple of quotes from a couple of cases.

Out of two + centuries of rulings.

"..and concurrence of legal scholars."

Was that the FDR opinion?

" although you haven't, I concede that you can bring "

Well, it is that C. Sagan thing. You are making the claims (like NASA needing an amendment to continue and we don't need national tire standards) and have had 4 days now to prove your case.

"questions concerning your view on the other rights,"

You made claims about my position on the 10th that you haven't shown any evidence of.

Yet you enter ?? about "other rights" AFTER that was pointed out.

"other rights" weren't mentioned until then.

So, basically, going off topic.

So, three and a half hours to find your proof of:

frobert — July 18, 2011 at 7:25 a.m.

Quote where in this thread I've ".. denied the existence of the tenth amendment."

And all we get are new, off-topic questions......

mr_basil_seal — July 18, 2011 at 10:55 a.m. ( | suggest removal

pssst!!!! a secret fer ya! Rupert Murdoch's News Corporation is part owner of Sky News...and he used to own it outright till 1992. You'd be surprised in just what he's got ownership stakes Hughes Electronics...about 34% (DirectTV is operatied by Hughes Electronics...or at least it was in 2009, btw). I'm sure you knew all this already though...right???

goldenoldie — July 18, 2011 at 12:03 p.m. ( | suggest removal

goldenoldie — July 18, 2011 at 12:03 p.m.

Kinda like the Koch holdings. According to one poster here you are unamerican if you don't let them help wipe your but....

mr_basil_seal — July 18, 2011 at 2:09 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Thanks for the info goldenoldie. I'm sure not every affiliate is corrupt but you never know. I know his recent bid for sky news was rejected over this scandal. Thanks fer the...secret...right???

Allen @ 8:41-The guy that ratted out big time News of the World editor Andy Coulson as being privy to the phone hacking incidents was found dead in his home today. So far cause of death is "unexplained".

nailingit — July 18, 2011 at 2:18 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Even FoxNewsChannel, right nailingit??? No need to answer. I already know what you're thinking as I sit here sporting a little devilish smirk about now. I won't tell if you don't tell our little ...secret!

goldenoldie — July 18, 2011 at 5:30 p.m. ( | suggest removal

mr_basil_seal — July 19, 2011 at 10:56 a.m.

"No NASA explanation" Explained quite clearly, you just disagree with my narrow view of the Constitution.

"No national tire explanation" See above.

"No party explanation" ???

"No explaining why you make claims and are unwilling to bring support...." My claims are all supported, denial of others opinion does not invalidate it.

Now do you care to support the common liberal lie that the parties switched positions?

(Sorry it took so long to respond, my son called, priorities, no offense he is more important)

frobert — July 19, 2011 at 11:23 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Sorry that you think what you are presenting as 'support' is valid.

And I'm still puzzled as to why the 'switching party platforms' is such an issue that you have to make unsupported claims about it.

Yes, you have a "..narrow view of the Constitution.".

A view that is not only held by a very small minority, but also isn't well supported by any law or critical analysis.

A much better way to work to a conclusion is to start with the evidence and then proceed; not form an opinion then toss out everything that argues against it or pick minuscule bits in an attempt to support it.

mr_basil_seal — July 19, 2011 at 12:36 p.m. ( | suggest removal

mr_basil_seal — July 19, 2011 at 12:36 p.m.

I have made no unsupported claims, I admit I did lead you to take a position, supported by common opinion but not by facts. You are the one that took the bait. Your arrogance will not allow you to concede your faulty position, so you deny ever taking the position.

the very name that the founders chose for the constitution implies a narrow reading.

I look at the issues from all sides, how often have you seen me disagree with the republicans,conservatives or Libertarians? How many times have I seen you disagree with the democrats or liberals? That could be seen as proof that I do look from all sides and you do not.

My conclusions are sound, I'm not in your middle school social studies class and I am not expected to take what you say at face value. My opinions are truthful, usually based on an understanding of the facts. That I can derive different truths from the same facts seems to beond your comprehension. You should accept that yours is not the only truth, accept that those that believe differently are not uneducated nor lack intelligence.

frobert — July 19, 2011 at 1:22 p.m. ( | suggest removal

*You are the one that took the bait.*

You are attempting to engage in revisionist history while the data is staring everyone in the face....

Sorry, but re-read; I suggested you read up on the history. I didn't say you were right or wrong in your claims.

You stated a position you want me to take. Which just adds to the list of unsupported claims you make.

So, show my words saying what you think I said.

And while you are doing that research, note how many times you were asked to support your other claims and the paucity of your 'resources'.

If your thinking were "based on an understanding of the facts", then it would be no problem to show us what informed your thinking. That you won't, or can't, speaks volumes for the quality of your argument.

mr_basil_seal — July 19, 2011 at 2:50 p.m. ( | suggest removal

mr_basil_seal — July 19, 2011 at 2:50 p.m.

Obviously you do not have the capacity for rational discussion. You refuse to accept any view of facts other than your own. You make veiled insults of the intelligence of those that disagree with you, and you don't have the courage of your convictions to stand your ground on those insults. You are a waste of my time.

frobert — July 19, 2011 at 3:20 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Where you wasted your time was in repeating, without valid support, a multitude of claims. And then, in spite of reasonable explanations why they weren't valid, just claiming they were.

Show sources that are used in a critical explanation of your position; not what barely meets a smell test on whatever blog you picked them up from.

Show how they support your claim, not just say they do.

mr_basil_seal — July 19, 2011 at 4:39 p.m. ( | suggest removal

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