May your thoughts be profound and your views constructive!

Lou Brancaccio (Columbian Staff) — June 13, 2011 at 2:21 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

I think there should be a "dislike" icon on Facebook right next to the "like" icon. The only option is to like.

vancouvernative1975 — June 13, 2011 at 4:05 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

On the facebook comments, Jim Moeller was insistent on the importance of the new vaccination law, I feel for full disclosure he should tell us how much Merck and the other Pharmaceutical giants have contributed to his campaigns.

frobert — June 13, 2011 at 5:11 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

Ok Lou, I didn't see you respond to the request for some good old fashioned investigative reporting on where all of our money has been spent by the CRC? We are deep into 8 digits and not much to show for it. It sounds like Madore is making some progress even if our local press won't.....Is anything happening there? Or did I miss it? Thanks,

tax_payer — June 13, 2011 at 10:08 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

Hey Lou... Here's a hot one for you to check out. I just heard a fairly reliable rumor that Freddy/Fannie sold, or is selling 100,000 US forclosures to China on Obama's directive...... Can you put your ear to the ground?

tax_payer — June 13, 2011 at 10:47 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

frobert — June 13, 2011 at 5:11 p.m.

http://ballotpedia.org/wiki/index.php/James_Moeller

mr_basil_seal — June 14, 2011 at 8:07 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

"May your thoughts be profound and your views constructive!" Lou what's name.

That quote has permeated my thoughts this morning and prompted me to profoundly mull the non-response response of the Columbian as it relates to the many criticisms of the proposed baseball stadium. I am profoundly thinking how the proponents can justify the thought that we want it and you're going to pay for it.

I am also profoundly thinking of the failure of the Columbian in fully exposing the complete failure of the Hilton Hotel and the Columbian's continued articles telling us how successful it is.

So I will dedicate my day and join the editorial board deep in profound thought and constructive views.

Cheers,

Ladley — June 14, 2011 at 8:47 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

mr_basil_seal

Kind of simplistic for you isn't it? Go to the Pharmaceutical company web sites and see who they say they say they contribute to and you will get a different answer.

frobert — June 14, 2011 at 9:27 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

frobert — June 14, 2011 at 9:27 a.m.

Show us the connection.

mr_basil_seal — June 14, 2011 at 12:17 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

mr_basil_seal

http://www.followthemoney.org/database/StateGlance/contributor_details.phtml?c=117875&i=68

Pharmaceuticals & Health Products:

9 contributions of $100 to $500 each for a total of $3,025. $110,308 is amount of total contributions.

Are we going to say that a man who has spent his career in health care/social work is going to sell out for $3,000?

I believe parents can ask for a "single dose" of a vaccine so they can avoid preservatives [Thimerasol].

buckeye71 — June 14, 2011 at 2:39 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

mr_basil_seal — June 14, 2011 at 12:17 p.m

My point is not that I should disclose, my point is that Mr Moeller should disclose.

frobert — June 14, 2011 at 3:24 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

COLUMBIAN,

Out of curiosity, are you truly happy with the way the Facebook side is going? My own observation is that --

Bob Larimer has an opinion on EVERYTHING. (He has to be the lately silent Cranky - they constantly repeat the same Sean Hannity talking points.) And a few others have decided to criticize his opinions openly as the ravings of a deluded old man. Is this the niceness you were trying to instill to the process? Also, one of his latest "foes" goes by the moniker Irish Nativeson. Is this actually a real name, or is it just being conveniently ignored?

Most conversations on anything of national import are dominated by about 5 or 6 from the conservative side. On rare occasions some on the liberal side like Rep Moeller weigh in, but it seems these have dropped off after the first week or so. Irish and a couple of others are carrying the load for this side, and aren'y doing too well.

The limited CRC conversation has reverted to the "we need a new bridge because the one we have now might fail in an earthquake" type comments. Or "stop talking and start building." There is almost no discussion on source of funding, true costs, impact on traffic movement, or anything else.

There has been a good conversation on building a new stadium to bring the Bears here. And my observation there is that most people are opposed, due to the luxury tax proposed and a couple of other reasons. Also, the lack of funding support for the Vancouver Symphony keeps coming up - it isn't clear, but was something similar rejected to support that operation?

And, sadly enough, every time a youngster weighs in with a LTE, it seems they get jumped on. Under the old "mean" format, most of us thanked them for being involved and politely addressed how we felt about what they said.

If you are satisfied with the Facebook conversation, I guess that's your prerogative - you do run the website. But PLEASE keep the open forum, anonymous side going. While the conversation occasionally gets a little out there (e.g., Alleycat's preaching the way of the biker), for the most part the conversations are actually quite interesting. And, seeing as how I used him as an example, Alleycat also has some good, well thought out positions on the role of government, once you sift through the extraneous comments he throws in. Nailingit, manthou, elisi, hawkeye, buckeye71, and many others are carrying on conversations that mostly do meet exactly what Lou called for in his opening post for this page - "May your thoughts be profound and your views constructive!"

roger — June 14, 2011 at 6:56 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

rodger- Great points. I think this is working out for the paper in some respect. Just for the points you mentioned. Bob's comments have been so vile in the past that he has been banned from these threads on multiple occasions. For whatever reason now they embrace him. Like a 3 legged carnival barker in a potatoe sack race, bobbo is a greatly disturbed person with seemingly a very involved identity crisis. I counseled him many times on these threads in the past, and his frustration level was amazing. The more frustrated he acts, the more he feeds off his own misery, the "happier" he is. He seriously needs professional help. Just the very basics of decency, humanity 101 if you will, eludes him. I'm a registered Democrat, and someone like bob can be a good thing for the local dems here.

Like I would tell bob on occasion. He brings clarity to right and wrong. He helps to define the line between sanity and the insane. In some respect the public is served by his rants.

nailingit — June 14, 2011 at 9:51 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

A half dozen Republicans have taken over the new facebook comments and it's a shame. One of the great things about being anonymous is the ability to say exactly what you are thinking without the typical social consequences. Once your identity is revealed, the need to be polite and considerate moderates comments and people don't express their true feelings.

Columbian, your comments have become dull, dull, dull. Go back to the old system where people "told it like it is." You changed your whole system because of a few jerks and now, you're stuck with the very same jerks using their real names. The reasonable people want to protect their identity and safety.

You blew it. Put it back.

duckman — June 14, 2011 at 10:02 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

One more thing, tell Laird he wrote a great column on Sunday.

duckman — June 14, 2011 at 10:09 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

buckeye71 — June 14, 2011 at 2:39 p.m.

frobert — June 14, 2011 at 3:24 p.m.

So, do you have a clear causal correlation?

And isn't the " new vaccination law" ESB 5005 - 2011-12

http://apps.leg.wa.gov/billinfo/summary.aspx?bill=5005&year=2011

Which EXPANDS the ease in getting an exemption?

mr_basil_seal — June 15, 2011 at 12:15 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

Another aspect of using FB for log in is shown in the autism letter; where the comment thread got overwhelmed with comments from out of state / region by 5 or 6 anti vacs and two bloggers (one from each side). I doubt they would have bothered if they had to create a log in.

Wait a bit and see what happens when Columbian LTTE get passed around a bit on FB, blogs (which is what happened with the autism letter) or mailing lists.

(Odd also that virtually everyone is now a TC)

mr_basil_seal — June 15, 2011 at 12:28 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

Once again I face my keyboard this morning anxious to profoundly think. The first thought that I profoundly think about is why any idiot (that would be me) pay $240 a year to support a paper that won't tell me who was responsible for the Sharma debacle but endorsed a $30,000 report that was worthless. Why do, I while profoundly thinking, suspect that the Columbian did not want to alienate their obligations to the former mayor, city manager and the police union?

Another thought, why would my paper not question the sale of 1/2 block of downtown Vancouver for $200,000 without putting the property out for bid?

Perhaps my paper, and I profoundly think about this, could tell me why the city would pay $800,000 for the Monterey Hotel and then turn around and sell it for $400,000 to a developer.

There are so many things to profoundly think about that I am exhausted just thinking about all the possibilities. Perhaps I will be well enough to address some more of them tomorrow. For now, off to Freddies for my morning get well coffee break.

Cheers

Ladley — June 15, 2011 at 8:35 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

"...the moniker Irish Nativeson. Is this actually a real name, or is it just being conveniently ignored?"

Odd also that we have people saying they are getting messages asking for a phone number to verify their existence, yet others get summarily blocked with no notification sent by message or email.

mr_basil_seal — June 15, 2011 at 10:04 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

mr_basil_seal

How does having to have a health care practitioner sign off on your philosophical or personal objection expand the ease of getting the exemption? That only serves to expand profits for health care providers and drug companies.

frobert — June 15, 2011 at 10:09 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

frobert — June 15, 2011 at 10:09 a.m.

Sorry, but that doesn't even make sense....

First, look at the change in definition of 'health practitioner', then look at the expanded list of allowed reasons. Both allow for easier access to the system by anti-vacs.

mr_basil_seal — June 15, 2011 at 10:15 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

mr_basil_seal

The system that has been in place takes a signature by the person with the personal or philosophical objection. The new system requires permission from a practitioner for your opinion. Please refer to your own link for clarification.

frobert — June 15, 2011 at 10:27 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

Forethought, thanks for an Insider's view of the debacle and decline of the C. You have answered my suspicions quite clearly. Chicago style politics have destroyed what was once a decent community newspaper.

tigrato — June 15, 2011 at 10:28 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

Forethought — June 15, 2011 at 10:14 a.m.

Well said and just as I have suspected for a long time. Visions (read delusions) of grandeur on the part of the paper but now to do a 180 would be to lose face.

It was at one time a pleasure to read the C online but now it's just tedious.

As the great B.B. King once said, "The Thrill is Gone".

hawkeye — June 15, 2011 at 11:08 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

Forethought --- Thank you. Good to see that our assumptions are on the mark.

It seems to me there is quite a number of FB posts from out of the Clark/Cowlitz/Skamania area. I have assumed that most of us who are posting to these forums are living in the area and supporting local advertisers.

buckeye71 — June 15, 2011 at 11:40 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

Just tried the Facebook posting for this article on the CRC. Let's see if it lasts http://www.wweek.com/portland/article-17566-a_bridge_too_false.html

Colin_Wright — June 15, 2011 at 11:51 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

Colin_Wright

I posted that on June 1 and it was removed. Here is a follow up:

http://www.wweek.com/portland/article-17592-putting_the_crc_on_notice.html

From Vancouver Voice 6/9. Mayor Leavitt's response:

http://blotter.vanvoice.com/2011/06/an-article-too-narrow.html

From Blue Oregon 6/3 [This is a follow up to the Willamette Week article.]

http://www.blueoregon.com/2011/06/crc-costly-risky-clusterf/#comments

buckeye71 — June 15, 2011 at 12:06 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

frobert — June 15, 2011 at 10:27 a.m.

" A written certification signed by ((any physician 12 licensed to practice medicine pursuant to chapter 18.71 or 18.57 RCW)) [deleted and following substituted] 13 a health care practitioner"

from physician TO practitioner

AND continues the exemption by parents, guardians,

" A written certification signed by any parent or legal p. 1 ESB 5005.PL 1 guardian of the child or any adult"

mr_basil_seal — June 15, 2011 at 12:08 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

Forethought --- More fact than fiction here with large helping of humor:

http://dailycouve.blogspot.com/2011/06/thursday-june-9-2011.html

buckeye71 — June 15, 2011 at 12:18 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

mr_basil_seal

Also added "(2)(a) The form presented on or after the effective date of this 9 section must include a statement to be signed by a health care 10 practitioner stating that he or she provided the signator with 11 information about the benefits and risks of immunization to the child. 12 The form may be signed by a health care practitioner at any time prior 13 to the enrollment of the child in a school or licensed day care. 14 Photocopies of the signed form or a letter from the health care 15 practitioner referencing the child's name shall be accepted in lieu of 16 the original form."

This law only serves take money from Washington families and give it to Mr. Moeller's financial backers.

frobert — June 15, 2011 at 12:33 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

"..only serves take money from Washington families.."

How? You don't want your kid immunized and seemingly not concerned with the health of the rest of the children, all you need to is go to a clinic and ask for the information and have the person sign a letter saying it was given.

And the religious exemption, if it isn't tossed out, pretty much eliminates that need.

Beyond that, there is the basic issue that immunizations are a basic part of preventing major illnesses that are hard to treat and have many lasting repercussions both individually and to society. And this whole issue is based on the faulty 'science' of blaming autism on vaccines.

mr_basil_seal — June 15, 2011 at 1:04 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

mr_basil_seal — June 15, 2011 at 1:04 p.m

I gather that you have now read the link you posted and realize that your argument is without merit.

As for your new arguments.

1. Healthcare practitioners do not work for free.
2. Lying to get an exemption would not be an option to a reasonable person.
3. Not the Government nor the pharmaceutical companies should be making our medical, religious or philosophical decisions.

frobert — June 15, 2011 at 1:39 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

frobert — June 15, 2011 at 1:39 p.m.

1. Free or sliding scale clinics.

2. No mention of lying, there just isn't a valid way to prove or ascertain membership in a belief system. And the law-or that part of it- if it were to require a statement of faith from an 'established' religion, most likely wouldn't stand in court. Similar provisions were in place during the drafted military era and they didn't stand then.

3. Again, you are ignoring that your action (or non-action in this case) has social ramifications;

mr_basil_seal — June 15, 2011 at 3:18 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

mr_basil_seal

Back to my original argument, this change in the law takes money from working families and gives it to Mr. Moeller's financial backers. You have made a clear argument that the law in no way forces people to be vaccinated, it only forces people to spend their money for a healthcare provider. If the healthcare community truly felt that public health was at risk, why don't they propose a law requiring providers to provide this public service as a condition of licencing?

frobert — June 15, 2011 at 3:39 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

"May your thoughts be profound and your views constructive!"

Why are the forums under News and the Letters to the Editor under Opinion? Well, I understand why LttE are opinion, but the Forums under News? That's just baffling ....

Why is the FB comments defaulted to "social ranking"? Now you've got posters replying above the comment they are discussing.

And why is Irish Nativeson still posting and others who used pennames blocked?

Probably more constructive than profound......

mr_basil_seal — June 15, 2011 at 3:39 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

"propose a law requiring providers to provide this public service as a condition of licencing?"

Well, first we do have it as a law to be vaccinated before entering school. The exemption issue until the fraudulent anti-vac claims was for those of a very small religious persuasion and that amount didn't affect the society's protection by vac from being effective.

And we have many other examples of where families have mandated expenses; emissions testing for example, charging to take the drivers' test. Or taxes, inspection fees,....

Now it is a different issue because of the anti-vacs pushing their fraudulent agenda and causing statistical rises in diseases that we, as a society, should be safe from. Basically an anti-vac's inability to make a reasoned and informed decision is putting other people's children at risk.

Requiring that a person has the necessary information to make a informed decision is important to society. I don't really care if that information comes from a practitioner or is available online or is available from the school. Though I think actually asking a practitioner for the information and having that practitioner there and ready to respond to specific concerns and answering questions is a large benefit.

You are making claims about ~2% of Moeller's contributors. Do you have evidence from other bills that involve medical or pharma that he has been financially influenced? What about other industries who have contributed an equal or larger percentage?

mr_basil_seal — June 15, 2011 at 4:02 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

mr_basil_seal

The medical community accounts for 23% of his contributions. No other industry has contributed more to his campaigns.

Taxes are one thing, but government should never mandate that a person buy something from a private company, this is contrary to a free market economy.

The objection to forced vaccination has little to do with the link to autism. As recently as 20 years ago parents that refused to give their children antibiotics for minor infections faced repercussions because they denied the "facts" today the medical community has come around to their way of thinking.

frobert — June 15, 2011 at 4:20 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

"The medical community accounts for.."

Do you have evidence from other bills that involve medical or pharma that he has been financially influenced? What about other industries who have contributed an equal or larger percentage?

mr_basil_seal — June 15, 2011 at 8:16 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

mr_basil_seal

????

frobert — June 15, 2011 at 9:34 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

frobert — June 15, 2011 at 9:34 p.m.

You are making claims about Moeller potentially voting and other actions based on contributors. Do you have evidence from other bills that involve medical or pharma that he has been financially influenced? What about other industries with donations to his campaign?

mr_basil_seal — June 15, 2011 at 9:52 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

mr_basil_seal

I made a request asking him to be more forthcoming. As per my post no other industry comes even close to what he receives from healthcare. It only takes sponsoring one bill that wrongfully moves money from his constituents to his contributors to make it a viable question.

frobert — June 15, 2011 at 10:02 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

"I like being chatted up"

How 'bout chattin' back? With what's been said, stayin' silent, not the best ace in the hole.

I'm a sittin' here with 2 down, 4 up to include cowboys and one Chief in Knd. This testicle dura on the stool next to me says in a hawkish fashion, "I run the shoe, my next draw's a joker."

I gaze at his understated appearance and wonder aloud, "who the hell is this guy? I'm sittin' pretty with a card to go and this joker is well, dealing himself a joker. I says "wild cards aren't legal where I come from."

He then removes his feet from the table and asks me "who do you think you are and where do you play?''

I tell him "nailingit, and Vegas is my house of cards."

He says, "this ain't Vegas, I'm the house in the land of the Couve', and I'll draw what I will."

He then stiffed me with a tray and oddly enough, stood there holding nothing but his joker.

I says to him "what happened? Where are your other cards, your ace in the hole?"

He looks perplexed, then sits once more, and with chin in hand he mutters...

"...my aces were the faces that didn't show themselves. You know, willbridge, goldenoldie, rodger, and so many that brought me support. Now the support is gone and some faceless as well...I'm afraid the pit boss might kick this windy soul's sox right outta here... don't know what to do ..."

So I says to him, "in order to save the faceless, one might have to save some face."

nailingit — June 16, 2011 at 12:09 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

nailingit and Allen: Do either of you know the story behind the sudden closure of Bob Koski's blog? I think it was called Clark County Politics.

Was the editor behind that? I know there were lawsuit threats against Koski by The Columbian and he suddenly shuttered his blog.

The reason the editor likes names to faces, perhaps, is that it is easier to go after the critics with a willing attorney.

Where is Bob Koski, anyway? I miss that loveable curmudgeon. He is the original Chief, you know. :)

The Forums here are getting much more traffic, I'll wager. Why not open up all commentary to those who want to use Facebook and those who do not? Is it about saving face? The editor has already made it very clear that he has little regard for those of us who have supported the paper for years, but wish to remain anonymous. He is not motivated by our feedback or subscriptions. He must be surrounded by sycophants who are afraid of losing their jobs.

I do notice a "whistling in the graveyard" theme to some of Lou's statements. Phrases similar to, "it will take about two months to repopulate the commentary" and "less controversial subjects will not generate many comments" seem to me to be soothing self-talk for someone who knows his gamble is not working well with readers or staff.

H E Double hockeysticks will freeze over before he admits it.

manthou — June 16, 2011 at 5:52 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

BTW, nailingit: loved your creative writing parody of 12:09 AM! You have won my vote for president. :)

Off to work. C U later.

manthou — June 16, 2011 at 6:02 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

frobert — June 15, 2011 at 10:02 p.m.

First, you are taking a position you don't like (vacs) and ascribing that Moeller is voting for it because of contributions.

When the reality of the issue is that anti-vac policies are a danger to our children, their educational progress, and has caused an upswing in diseases that are preventable.

His position is one based on a rational review of the facts. As the vast majority of people realize.

Second, your 23% claim seems a bit off. How would a Chiro or a Dentist directly benefit from their assoc.'s contribution?

Again, you are taking one vote on one position and ascribing malfeasance to that action based on what you wanted him to vote like.

And you can't support your claim by showing any other combination of vote and contributor.

And Moeller has disclosed his contributions; if you notice, he provided your source with 30/30 reports. Interestingly, McKenna hasn't....

So, basically, your argument about contributions is as valid as Wakefield's 'study'.

mr_basil_seal — June 16, 2011 at 6:39 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

Thanks manthou. Power to the people!

I wasn't aware of any matter concerning Bob Koski. Sure sounds interesting! If you are comfortable expounding sometime, sure sounds interesting! Lawsuits?

nailingit — June 16, 2011 at 9:33 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

mr_basil_seal

I have not taken a position against vaccines, only a position against government making medical,religious or philosophical decisions for the populous.(read Roe v Wade)

Can you cite any reputable study to support your claim that non vaccinated children suffer educational setbacks?

Putting the profits of his contributors above the needs of his constituents, is malfeasance, even if as you contend that he has only done it once.

frobert — June 16, 2011 at 10:16 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

robert — June 16, 2011 at 10:16 a.m.

Good grief...

Your first para makes less sense than your other posts. You really need to walk through how you got from Roe v. to "government making.."

non-vac kids bringing preventable illnesses to school. Lost school days, infect other non-vac kids.

I'm not contending 'once', you are making that claim and can't provide any causal correlation. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Correlation_does_not_imply_causation

His position is sound. Evidence-based.

mr_basil_seal — June 16, 2011 at 10:24 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

Lou... I think the fella's right!

scotty — June 16, 2011 at 11:46 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

Without facebook I can't even helpfully and profoundly remark that "dispearance" in the headline they created for that new article that they cribbed from the Oregonian is not a word that is spelled correctly.

If anyone that works there is still reading this, please let it be noted when time and place shall serve that "dispearance" should disappear.

PadmaRani — June 16, 2011 at 11:46 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

Did anyone notice that in order to reply to podcast, you have to sign up to be a Verified User including phone number?

buckeye71 — June 16, 2011 at 12:07 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

mr_basil_seal — June 16, 2011 at 10:24 a.m.

Good grief is right, if you can't see that if the government is allowed to make some medical decisions eventually they will make all of them, you are either naive or in denial.

I am guessing that you have nothing to cite supporting your claim that non vaccinated children struggle in school. You of all people should realize "because it's obvious" is not an argument.

Again, one instance of creating profits for his puppeteers out of the pockets of his constituents is all it takes.

frobert — June 16, 2011 at 3:29 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

Good grief pt 2

Examples of ".. government is allowed to make some medical decisions .."

Where did I say "struggle in school"?

And you haven't shown ".. one instance .." to be the case. Correlation doesn't imply causation. Can you show any other instances where Rep. Moeller was influenced by his contributors? Can you show that every Rep and Sen and the Governor who voted for and signed this into law were swayed by contributions?

mr_basil_seal — June 16, 2011 at 3:50 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

mr_basil_seal — June 16, 2011 at 3:50 p.m

We could start with the Harrison act regulating opiates, and now virtually all medications are regulated.

"anti-vac policies are a danger to our children, their educational progress" mr_basil_seal — June 16, 2011 at 6:39 a.m

Once again this legislation takes money from constituents and gives it to his corporate masters.

frobert — June 16, 2011 at 4:01 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

HEY LOU

it's good to see the swamp is happily doing it's thang.

sympathies for that other place.

oh, and when WILL you be publishing your investigative piece about the crc?

DeeLittle — June 16, 2011 at 4:22 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

Roger, We would very much like to keep this anonymous forum, and we will as long as the comments here are in line with our community guidelines. But the quality of the comments in this forum has recently degraded to the point that we have to police it much more regularly.

The same commuity guidelines apply here as they did before the changeover. Please refrain from posting personal attacks and rumors and stay on point.
We kept this forum to allow for anonymous discussion and commentary, but we will take it down if commenters continue to violate our guidelines.

Libby Clark — June 16, 2011 at 4:34 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

buckeye71 Because the podcast is a new feature, we haven't yet added Facebook comments. That will changeover shortly.

Libby Clark — June 16, 2011 at 4:36 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

Wow, Libby.

Seriously, what has been said that wasn't true?

hawkeye — June 16, 2011 at 4:43 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

We kept this forum to allow for anonymous discussion and commentary, but we will take it down if commenters continue to violate our guidelines.

Libby Tucker (Columbian Staff) — June 16, 2011 at 4:34 p.m.

Good way to get your point across, threats always put people in line. So glad we can ALL be friends.

hawkeye — June 16, 2011 at 4:52 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

hawkeye,

Perhaps my post was a bit harsh. We haven't been moderating closely or taking down comments as quickly as was needed, and allowed things to get out of hand. That won't happen again. But we also made the requirements of the forum very clear: they're posted at the top of each page. I'm asking posters to demonstrate more civility and to heed the guidelines. I know this group values the ability to share comments anonymously. You should be able to self-moderate to a large degree to ensure this feature remains. And I'll do my part to help keep it clean(er) as well.

Libby Clark — June 16, 2011 at 5:16 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

From Libby Tucker --- Columbian --- June 16 --- You should be able to self-moderate to a large degree to ensure this feature remains. And I'll do my part to help keep it clean(er) as well.

Hawkeye and Alleycat

Do you think they didn't like Pink Floyd and Creedence? I bet they think bikers are dirty. I am probably the oldest person on these forums and the fact they need to keep it clean(er) escapes me. The juveniles and those who find Charlie Sheen inspiring [see FB Profiles] are on FB.

Looks like we're going to have to kick a** and take names. Do we need to create an enemies list?

Whatever.

buckeye71 — June 16, 2011 at 6:25 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

And I'll do my part to help keep it clean(er) as well.

Libby Tucker (Columbian Staff) — June 16, 2011 at 5:16 p.m

Maybe I didn't get my point across very well. We don't need to be monitored, we don't need to have our words and ideas scrutinized for accuracy.
We believe in freedom of speech and freedom of expression. If you really have the need to monitor someone, check out Bob Larimer and Lew Waters on the other side for out of this world ideas and speech.

Really, we are just fine and I'm sure if there is a problem, someone will contact you via the "suggest removal" option.

hawkeye — June 16, 2011 at 7:13 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

I'm wondering what Tom Koenninger would think if he was still with us about.. FB and this alienating the posters to this backdoor forum who chose not to post via FB.

ELISI — June 16, 2011 at 7:28 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

Forethought,

I think that Tom Koenninger, being the type of journalist and man he was, would have allowed those of us that choose to stay anonymous to post along side of those on Facebook to be fair. I think he would have given all of us the choice.

ELISI — June 16, 2011 at 8:25 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

Libby,

Thanks for "stopping by" and chatting/representing The Columbian. Thanks for saying you'd like to keep this forum open - and it would be nice to discuss that a bit further in a more pleasant exchange. Are you going to be our monitor, adult supervision, or whatever title you prefer? And are you going to be joining us more often? And would it be possible to get John Laird to drop by occasionally? Quite a few here enjoyed our exchanges with him.

But for now - please - there have been some rather boisterous exchanges in the past few days, but no true hostility. Several people's motives on a variety of topics have been questioned, to include those of Editor Lou, D. Madore, and Cranky Ol' Bob - one of your top facebook posters. Most arguments are carried on civilly enough. The only thing that might fit "personal attack and rumor" would have to be the post by Forethought. And if his sources are as he states - well....

I make it a point to keep up with what's being said on the facebook side, and would like to note that the comments there have become increasingly antagonistic - much like you say is happening here. (Now, as a rule I would agree with much of what's being directed at Bob, and I suspect he enjoys it, but I also think you'll have to admit many comments clearly go well into the realm of incivility.) Further, other rules are being violated there, to include at least two fictitious names. Why the disparity in enforcement?

In closing, thanks for putting up the Vancouver development forum. I guess only a couple of us were interested. Oh well.

roger — June 16, 2011 at 8:39 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

Libby, glad to see you here enforcing the Columbian's TOS on this forum. Would you please tell us why you are not enforcing the Columbian's TOS on the Facebook side? Pretty much every post from Bob Larimer, aka Bobbo, aka TCB is in violation of either bullet number one or bullet number seven of Paragraph five of the Columbian's TOS. Bullet number one would seem to me to be against Bobbo's use of the name Hussein Obama,since it is "hate speech; defamatory, abusive, threatening or harassing speech; or racial, religious or personal attacks of any kind." Bullet number seven simply calls for "Content that is untrue, inaccurate, deliberately misleading, or trade libelous." Don't know that any of Bobbo's comments are trade libelous, but they are definitely untrue, inaccurate and deliberately misleading. Pretty much all of Bobbo's posts fall under one or the other of these. Why aren't you enforcing them rather than wandering through these forums deleting comment that you (and or Lou) don't appreciate?

dfsadfh — June 16, 2011 at 8:50 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

Libby -

Something that caught my attention the other day was the introduction of a new member of The Columbian staff. I forget the young lady's name (sorry), but do recall part of her title had something to do with Middle Class. Now, putting aside my initial inclination to start in with a Daily Show routine, could you PLEASE explain what this means? I guess I'm middle class, so I'm a bit interested in whether she's going to be speaking for us, or what?

roger — June 16, 2011 at 8:55 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

Oh boy. Now we can argue about whether Cranky Bob is a perp or a victim. Keeping it profound and constructive!!!

roger — June 16, 2011 at 8:59 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

roger @ 8:55 PM: You asked the question that popped into my head the minute I read about the new reporter's beat, too.

Middle class? What does that mean? What audience are they trying to snag now? Will there be a reporter covering the Lower Class? Upper Class? Under Class? Classless? The Class Clowns?

I am beginning to sense a lack of control at the C and certainly a lack of respect. When insecure managers try to tighten the reigns, they usually do so by using fear, intimidation, and threats.

It makes me wonder whether this Facebook move was really a way to make sure no Columbian employees were posting anonymously.

Just a thought.

Roger, maybe Libby will answer your question. She seems to respond to you.

Middle Class beat? Unreal.

manthou — June 16, 2011 at 9:54 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

Great graduation at Columbia River tonight. A great group of kids and your community's proud!

I posted a message on the political forum for these guys, and given how Libby has done her drive by I wouldn't expect any answers if I asked on here.

Libby Tucker. Is it responsible for you to make broad statements, blanket threats and not address any questions as to the validity of them? I suppose I just insulted you.

Where do they get these guys from???

nailingit — June 16, 2011 at 10:51 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

Set up a time on these threads and address us in real time. Just do it!

nailingit — June 16, 2011 at 10:52 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

These guys are like children that need to be schooled in decent behavior. Amazing!!!

nailingit — June 16, 2011 at 10:53 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

~A petty reason perhaps why novelists more and more try to keep a distance from journalists is that novelists are trying to write the truth and journalists are trying to write fiction~ Graham Greene

nailingit — June 16, 2011 at 11:06 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

Not one comment this morning on C's Facebookworld about WA's budget reserve crisis. The story was up on the web version last evening early enough. It is front page news in the print edition this morning.

I was told by a state administrator yesterday that Governor Gregoire issued an emergency freeze on all state spending and hiring.

Could someone help me fact-check this?

manthou — June 17, 2011 at 5:59 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

nailingit: I used your new avatar a year ago to wake up the audience during a presentation on adolescent brain development. D'oh. :)

manthou — June 17, 2011 at 6:08 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

from the civil facebook side

Bob Larimer · Top Commenter · Vancouver, Washington No, watching the actual abysmal performance of irresponsible, cynical, tyrannical liberals like Barney Frank has demonstrated the truth that liberalsim is not only a mental disorder, but a socialistic economic disaster. Like · Reply · Wednesday at 6:33pm

everyone is aware that the Democrat party is encouraging seminar letter writers to keep flooding The Columbina with anti-Herrera letters

Robert, the source is me.

Should have listened to Bush, not Bawney Fwank.

Do I really need to justify myself to his liberal supporters?

One thread...... letter-debt-limit-must-be-addressed

mr_basil_seal — June 17, 2011 at 7:58 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

Hi everyone, thanks for your comments last night. The main moderator of these forums would normally be our social media coordinator, Matt Wastradowski, who unfortunately broke his hand the weekend before our Facebook comments launch. He's been out for the past three weeks or so. (Bad timing.) Lou and I have been doing our best to keep on top of the comments here and on our stories, but we can't do nearly as good a job as our full-time SMC would.

Libby Clark — June 17, 2011 at 8:57 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

Manthou The middle class beat was created by our former features reporter Erin Middlewood after an in-depth report she did on shrinking retirement benefits for private sector workers. She observed that with rising health care costs, shrinking benefits, high unemployment and the like, the American middle class is in jeopardy and the issue is under-covered by the local media. The beat aims to address some of those issues, specific to Clark County. I suggest that you follow Paris's work to see how the beat evolves.

Libby Clark — June 17, 2011 at 9:22 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

I guess Libby forgot to answer Roger & dfsaddh's last question regarding the conduct on the "other side". I was a bit curious too.

seamuscallan — June 17, 2011 at 9:31 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

In regards to forethoughts comments. The initial post was removed, as predicted, because of the personal attacks. You are free to criticize The Columbian and its policies here, but personal attacks, against our Editor or anyone else, will be removed.

Libby Clark — June 17, 2011 at 9:43 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

seamuscallan — June 17, 2011 at 9:31 a.m

I see she didn't want to answer my questions on that same subject, instead, she just erased it.

Wouldn't it be nice to be able to do that in real life, if you don't like the questions of others, just erase them.

A cop pulls you over and says, "do you know how fast you were going"? SNAP, question erased.

I like it, how do I get that power? Oh yea, be the editor that makes the rules.

hawkeye — June 17, 2011 at 9:47 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

col_Wrightwing Erin recently left the paper, but you may see her byline pop up here occasionally as a freelancer.

Libby Clark — June 17, 2011 at 9:48 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

Hey all. Sorry but I won't be able to get back here as often as I used to. And I won't be able to answer every question that is asked. But here are a few answers.

• I don't think it's unusual for some former staffers to feel like they were wronged. I'm sure sometimes they were and I'm sure sometimes they were not. For those who felt they were wronged, most don't like their former employer or boss. And they usually have some pretty harsh words. So a forum like this allows an anonymous person to quote anonymous staffers on whatever. Regardless, we don't allow personal attacks.

• Most reporters, as far as I can tell, were overjoyed when we went to our Facebook sign-in. A few of them even brought in apple cider and cookies to celebrate.

• Interestingly, I was not an early supporter of a Facebook sign-in. Probably fair to say I was about the last one to give in. I do support it now and am hopeful it succeeds. My sense is that you'll see more and more papers go to this.

• Reporters are not restricted to voice their opinions on Facebook because I want to control the opinions. Most reporters, I believe, appreciate that for them to voice an opinion on a topic they are reporting on would be counterproductive to keeping their objectivity. We've discussed this openly -- reporters and editors -- and I think we all pretty much agree.

• Somehow it's apparently a bad thing -- according to a poster here -- for me to pass along story ideas based on things I've observed. I've actually written about observational journalism in my Saturday column and it's a good thing. But whether it's me or someone in the public or even a poster (I've gotten story ideas from posters) my view is all ideas are worth considering. It's one thing to be criticized for a bad idea, but find it strange that one should be criticized for passing along an idea. So if one of the ideas were bad, you're welcome to say so.

I've said all along you're welcome to criticize The Columbian but -- again -- please keep it constructive and no personal attacks.

We're going to try very hard to keep this forum open and anonymous but we need your help. And we can't have someone constantly monitoring it. We just don't have the staff to do so. So, again, please help.

Thanks much.

Lou Brancaccio (Columbian Staff) — June 17, 2011 at 9:57 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

I would like to nominate Seamus Callan to speak for the Class Clowns. As far as experience and past work, I think his many posts speak for themselves. Thank you for your support.

PadmaRani — June 17, 2011 at 10:11 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

"Most reporters, as far as I can tell, were overjoyed when we went to our Facebook sign-in. A few of them even brought in apple cider and cookies to celebrate."

First question that comes to mind is, why would someone do that? Was it less work for them or was there a celebration for something else going on? Might it been a Cinco De Mayo celebration and you didn't notice? And "apple cider and cookies", wow, you guys really party hard.

Seriously Lou, quit trying to B.S. us, we really are smarter than you appear to give us credit for.

hawkeye — June 17, 2011 at 10:12 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

Libby Tucker- Please address your comments at 4:34 and 5:16. Please respond to the comments and questions that have been asked of the many commenters here. And please, we know you have all the power. No need to continually remind people of it. You seem bright Libby. The phrasing and intent of your statements here sound less than the America I grew up in. Your statements are as callous as they get.......and have the ring of elitism. I'll leave it at that.

How do you equate your responses with the spirit of a free press that encourages free speech and is supposed to be representative of the people?

Why is larimer allowed once again to "contribute" to this paper? The hypocrisy here is deafening.

nailingit — June 17, 2011 at 10:13 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

Apple cider and cookies LOL!

nailingit — June 17, 2011 at 10:17 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

We try to have a pretty thick skin in this business but -- fair to say -- the personal and other shots begin to wear thin. Reproters knew for some time we were considering a Facebook sign-in and I was often asked by them when it was going to happen. As you know, I often went into the comment sections to engage you all and pick up the good stuff. But there were many staffers who simply wouldn't go there. Essentially they were saying "I didn't sign up for this."

It was the same general reaction we had from many in the public.

Lou Brancaccio (Columbian Staff) — June 17, 2011 at 10:53 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

Lou Brancaccio (Columbian Staff) — June 17, 2011 at 10:53 a.m.

Apparently you didn't get the message or it didn't sink in.

They and WE still don't like it and never will!

hawkeye — June 17, 2011 at 10:57 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

Understood hawkeye that you don't like it. If you're in the newspaper business -- even for a short time -- you learn one thing very quickly. You will never please everyone all the time.

So as we heard from many who said they didn't like a Facebook sign-in, we also heard from many who said they loved it.

Lou Brancaccio (Columbian Staff) — June 17, 2011 at 11:09 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

As a manager LouB, as well as Editor, your reporters dictate their job responsibilities? If you gave two cents about this issue, would you not tell em' to suck it up. Most seem to be young enough to understand this is a different age of communication we are in.

Or is that the reason. How much input did 'local' wealthy business leaders give on this change?

nailingit — June 17, 2011 at 11:28 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

...staffers...they define what their job is? Sounds like some work shops in good reporting, journalistic standards and comprehensive courses in writing articles are in order.

How many comments did you used to get with simple corrections?

What's going on down there in the way of training and furthering the quality of staffers?

Do you invest any $$ in these issues or is done on the fly. Just curious.

Please e-mail me as I will voliunteer some of my time to help. Any paid positions might be a conflict of interest with my campaign. I'll consult hawk. At the very least I will privatley corrospond with you and help get this paper a fix.

Thanks for your time. You know, most of us are rooting for your success. You are all we have and are willing to contribute.

nailingit — June 17, 2011 at 11:37 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

I'm addressing questions and comments here as I can, throughout the day. Unfortunately, I can't always respond in real time as I have many other duties.

We're very much aware of Bob Larimer's posts. We've allowed him to begin posting again under the new system because we want to give everyone a fresh start and a chance to participate. His posts are frequent and opinionated, but so far he has (mostly) stayed within the guidelines. A few of his posts have been hidden but they weren't so egregious to cause him to be banned. His posts definitely have themes, but they're on-topic with the threads.

Libby Clark — June 17, 2011 at 11:39 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

(Side note) "Top commenter" is not a status bestowed by The Columbian, but the result of being one of the most frequent posters.

Libby Clark — June 17, 2011 at 11:54 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

Clarifying clean(er): Our intent isn't to moderate, per se, but to enforce the community guidelines. As you've noted here, even our Facebook comments aren't completely "clean" and we don't want them to be. We welcome debate, strong opinions, etc., as long as they're respectful. But we introduced the guidelines for a reason. We want to promote a thoughtful and productive discussion.

Libby Clark — June 17, 2011 at 12:09 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

Lou and crew,

I can accept that you believed you were going down a good path. There is little doubt that you received positive feedback from some. Politicians have already been observed enjoying the ability to target those who dare speak against their interests. That said, I think the results speak for themselves. The vast majority of discussion involving local posters goes on in these forums.

The Facebook side results in simple, safe comments by a small handful of local posters, with a few already-mentioned exceptions. Facebook allows people engaged in fights to take their conflicts all over the web, all over the country, and they've rolled through here a few times. How sad is it that most of the action here is no longer local?

Believe me, these 'foreigners' do not care about our community, the newspaper, advertisers, etc. The people who do? They're still here...just locked up in the basement.

JiveSoulBro — June 17, 2011 at 12:10 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

manthou @ 5:59. At this time there are only a few comments on this article. Larimer(LOL) being one them. Is it possible to recall Zarelli in the future? This grandstanding and misrepresentation of the people needs to stop.

nailingit — June 17, 2011 at 12:59 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

In hindsight thanks for your input forethought!

nailingit — June 17, 2011 at 1:01 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

Ms. Tucker- What is the reasoning behind separating the anonymous from those that aren't. With the ignore button and the ability to report to big brother options available, why the separation. I understand what it does, but what is the point? Not asking for opinion, just reasoning.

nailingit — June 17, 2011 at 2:06 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

nailingit, I think there is time in your schedule to "help out" at the C if they accept your proposal. We are still in formation mode and the schedule for interviews for Chief of Staff isn't until July 21st unless we happen to score a good one in the mean time. Please feel free to help as needed. Signs are being printed but won't be ready for a week or so. The printer had a few extra boxes of plasti-board available since Kendall never followed through last year.

hawkeye — June 17, 2011 at 2:28 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

EXCELLENT! Let's nail down as many prospects as possible.

I'll call bobbo the clown and consider his advice as it pertains to the pink side of the local GOP.

Perhaps his engagement/interfacing with the local bagger movement would produce the cream of the crop for our Crawford HeadQuarters appointment. We need some folks that enjoy going south.

If Cheany's daughter is available, she could slide right into this spot. Have her call Minn/St. Paul Int/Airport and page Larry Craig for a meating.

nailingit — June 17, 2011 at 3:30 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

nailingit The purpose of separating the comments was that we feel that the best way to bring accountability and civility to our discussions is to require real names, similar to what we ask for submissions to letters to the editor. We deeply believe in holding government accountable and are committed to accurately representing the community's issues and concerns. There is a place for anonymous comments here and in our stories, which one reason we've retained this forum. But accountable journalism is what we stand for and it's how we maintain credibility.

Libby Clark — June 17, 2011 at 3:31 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

But accountable journalism is what we stand for and it's how we maintain credibility.

Libby Tucker (Columbian Staff) — June 17, 2011 at 3:31 p.m.

Not to sound snarky or anything but don't you need to have creditability to maintain credibility?

You see, I think you lost a lot when you changed to Farcebook, and since when was a comment section the measure of how much credibility YOUR paper has?

hawkeye — June 17, 2011 at 3:49 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

Hello Everybody!

I've been toying around with the idea of returning to the Columbian to post again...but I'll tell you now, I've been quite hesitant. Last time I went against my gut instincts and ended going off the handle at Lou and and all. I meant every word I said and those gut instincts are still wringing in my head telling me no, don't do it.

The number one thing that's been holding me back is of course what I said before as far as my gut instincts but also...it's a bit of pride on my part. I've said I'd never return and bid a good riddance to the C yet something inside me is also saying that I am one of the missing links to the crowd at the forum whose open and honest opinions are continually shared in a respectable manner, thanks to all the emails of encouragement from folks I like to call my friends (thanks guys and gals). The FB comments and the success??? Piece of crap in my opinion.

Should I care about the Columbian and what Lou or Libby or anybody else's opinions are regarding posting here in the basement of the Columbian? Part of me says HELL No and another part of me says...hey, this is our community newspaper and we are exercising our freedom of expression while our nation is still considered free although even that is in jeopardy. How else am I going to understand the other side of a story without sharing in discussion?

Suppression of our freedom is EXACTLY what encourages those of us who value our freedom and no slanted comment, no act of censorship should ever stop us from doing what we value so highly.

The ability to express our opinions, our very own thoughts regarding any and all matters at hand has definitely withstood the test of time with regards to the Patriot Act. While we still have the right to freedom of expression which I hope to God we never lose, I have decided that I am back to post on the Columbian, although it is with the understanding that nobody will utilize their bullying tactics on me or anybody else who writes without hearing it from me. I am an open and honest person and am not afraid to let it be known when something ticks me off.

So yes, Goldie's back...I swallowed my pride and no, I do not use FB and will never use FB.

goldenoldie — June 17, 2011 at 3:50 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

...thanks for responding..and if I may..refer to you as Libby. Perhaps I was a bit rough in saying your remarks are as callous as they get. All I have to do is look at a remark by larimer! By the way, you have a really nice smile :)

Accountability for what? To strengthen any type of retaliatory measure that one might take in treating a comment that offends them?

Is it CYA for this paper in case they don't catch a really 'out there' comment that could lead directly to some type of legal issue? (I could understand that on some level)

Is it to appease the politically active rich and powerful in our community? I've noticed several months back that many enjoy espousing their views on both political/spiritual issues, but would take offense when pushed for thoughts/views on issues that effect our community. A few would get pretty riled up on here. Not a jollie time, but a Goliath moment!

Perhaps if some of the staff worked closer with us that post here.

And for starters I'll volunteer to buy you a drink so we can discuss this issue further!

nailingit — June 17, 2011 at 3:54 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

Hey GO!! Good to see you! We need your spirit and thoughts on many issues here.

nailingit — June 17, 2011 at 3:56 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

Libby, you speak about the anonymity of those of us in the forum who do not display our real name but in my case, you as well as several others within the confines of the Columbian know my real name. I have shared it with you on many occasion. So where is the lack of accountability and for the most part the lack of civility (exception of course are a few past posts)? I believe there are several of us who have let you folks know our real names through private emails yet we all have reasons why we don't want to subject ourselves to the issues of Facebook (including public exposure of our identity through picture and name) and are treated like second-class citizens in your basement?

goldenoldie — June 17, 2011 at 3:58 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

You kind of got in the way of me hitting on a cute, bright Columbian Staff Member...

...but it's all good!

nailingit — June 17, 2011 at 3:59 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

Nailingit, I believe Libby's avatar is blushing!

goldenoldie — June 17, 2011 at 4:01 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

LOL!

nailingit — June 17, 2011 at 4:02 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

Welcome back Golden.

Lou Brancaccio (Columbian Staff) — June 17, 2011 at 4:18 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

Thank you, Lou. And Lou, I had read your public apology to me and I accept, but it's with the understanding that actions speak louder than words from both sides. What can be construed as a tease by one can also be considered by others as bullying and as an insult in itself. Let's just say we've both learned from our experience and move forward in a positive direction. I'm game if you are.

goldenoldie — June 17, 2011 at 4:27 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

Of course. Hope you have a continued good experience here.

Lou Brancaccio (Columbian Staff) — June 17, 2011 at 4:30 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

Much obliged, sir.

goldenoldie — June 17, 2011 at 4:31 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

Nailingit !!!!

Brilliant IDEA !!!!

Goldenoldie for Chief of Staff, What do you think?

Hey Lou, too little, too late, I say.

hawkeye — June 17, 2011 at 4:36 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

Chief of Staff for what??? What am I missing?

I've been away for a couple of weeks, Hawkeye. As far as your comment to Lou...

Pshaw! Life's too short, Hawk. Live and let learn, ya know!

goldenoldie — June 17, 2011 at 4:40 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

Haven't you heard? Nailingit is running for President! I'm his campaign manager and we are looking for his Chief of Staff for his cabinet. You would be perfect! You don't take any crap, you're smart AND you aren't Bobbo! It's BRILLIANT !

hawkeye — June 17, 2011 at 4:52 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

I'm honored.

goldenoldie — June 17, 2011 at 4:53 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

Of course, you can't use your real name and you'll have to have a background check under your alias so that might be somewhat difficult but I passed it so you should be able to.

First question, how many fingers on your right hand?

hawkeye — June 17, 2011 at 4:59 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

Okay Lou...I've been watching the forum since it began as well as the FB comment sections as well. I do have one idea which I thought I'd share here, maybe so you can get some input on it as well. How about when you start up a new forum, it isn't so sterile with just the date of the new weekly forum and the grim reminder to those of us who don't do FB that it started on the first of June. Maybe some of the new forums generated could show a direct correlation to an article rather than just a general subject.

I've noticed the disconnect since day one which has definitely left us all feeling like second class citizens here, Lou. For instance, let's take the article about the person who was taken into custody at the Pentagon. This is a big deal, Lou...so why not give a headliner with a paragraph or two discussing the issue?

Also...how about forums responding to letters to the editor or an extension of your Press Talk? I see the numbers haven't been what they once were and we're two weeks into your new FB site. Lou...a total of 10 comments this week in which three were yours isn't what I'd consider a lot of activity.

I'd also like to see a quick writeup about Jaime Herrera's request to C-Tran that us followers could respond on.

I'm not sure if the others feel the same as me Lou, but honestly...those of us who have followed and supported the Columbian since the 70's, have had subscriptions over the years and still buy at the news stand and don't wish to go public with our names and our faces...

have been treated rather unfairly. I think a little elbow grease by you and your staff could really make the multiple discussion elements including the forum blossom into a wonderful website that would STILL be considered local. You can't afford to sever ANY ties with the community. Not in this day and age.

goldenoldie — June 17, 2011 at 5:04 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

Hawkeye, you made me smile. I'm glad to hear I don't have to provide my telephone number through my facebook for the position.

Eight fingers and two....no wait! Four fingers, one thumb. Sorry, I was making funny faces on the reflection on my monitor and was seeing double for a sec.

goldenoldie — June 17, 2011 at 5:08 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

well go..you are about the same age as Heather Locklear if I correctly remember your posts about classic music some months back...also I think you have posted as to being married, which could be a good thing, because as my campaign manager you would not be spending much time at home, you would be working long and hard weekends with my staff.

hawk this could work. goldenoldie my guess is you have too much dignity for this/these position/positions which will require much flexibility, as well as being flexible and flexing flexible parts of you current positioning.

nailingit — June 17, 2011 at 5:14 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

...sorry Cheif of Staff and not manager....hawk is the best, and shares common concerns, and looking forward to interviewing in Maui...about the chief of my staff!

nailingit — June 17, 2011 at 5:18 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

Nailingit, I feel the flexibility in formatting a fair and foreseeable future by fulfilling or facilitating an affiliation I find presented in a fastidious manner would leave me feverishly flailing as a fifth wheel....figuratively speaking.

goldenoldie — June 17, 2011 at 5:37 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

OK, with that as settled as it can be for the weekend, everybody gets the weekend off.

You too Libby and Lou.

GO, have a great weekend and think about staff members for the new administration. You know, the ones you can boss around.

As for me, It's Miller time.

Happy Father's day to all you Dads out there.

hawkeye — June 17, 2011 at 5:39 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

Ditto with the Daddy's Day theme!

Boss around??? Um....well....that's not my cup of tea. I make suggestions and work best with a consensus of agreements and achievements. The staff members would not be treated as if they were attached to a ball and chain. The work atmosphere would be upbeat and positive and everybody would have a chance to share their input with recognition for their dedicated work. That is...if I'd accept.

Boy...I think I took that one a bit too serious for a Friday afternoon!

goldenoldie — June 17, 2011 at 5:55 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

GO, I understand your concerns about privacy and there will always be those who don't want to use Facebook for one reason or another. That was one factor we weighed in our decision to switch to FB comments. I hope that the FB system ultimately serves a broader base of readers who are comfortable commenting through their social media accounts.

Hawkeye, believe it or not, the comment section has a huge effect on how our work is perceived by the community. This quote comes to mind: "Associate with men of good quality if you esteem your own reputation; for it is better to be alone than in bad company." George Washington

Nailingit, I'm flattered, but taken. :)

Libby Clark — June 17, 2011 at 6:02 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

:(

nailingit — June 17, 2011 at 6:07 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

Lou,

What have you heard about the Annual Rainbow Gathering being held in the Gifford Pinchot National Forest this year? I heard rumor that attendance would be up to 20,000.

BJDavey — June 17, 2011 at 6:09 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

go-no ball and chain except if it were mutually wanted. Thanks hawkeye

On another note...there's a piece in the paper cautioning the community about naked bikers...

...anyone seen alleycat?

nailingit — June 17, 2011 at 6:12 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

nailingit,

I just saw alleycat and Anthony Weiner buying a bicycle built for two.

BJDavey — June 17, 2011 at 6:15 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

BJ LOL!!

Libby...a little disappointed...but I understand.

goldenoldie @ 5:37 I totally understand your post...I need so much help. God help me for the sake of others.

nailingit — June 17, 2011 at 6:32 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

I very much appreciate having Libby and Lou join in today because this is all about relationships, when you get down to it.

Hometown newspapers build their success on being able to build and maintain relationships with their readers. This is more important today because readers have more choices and most of those choices now are interactive. I still subscribe to The Columbian, but I skim it now and go right to the web version so I can check up on my online pals and enjoy a stimulating conversation before or after work. Sometimes we get to chat with the editor or journalist, which makes the visit more interesting and stimulating.

Are you all following me? Hope so.

Along comes the Facebook mandate, threatening to sever the interactive chord. For a time, the journalists and editor seem to be so smitten with the new kid on the block that the loyal hardliners (us) feel abandoned and marginalized. We are second-class customers. Feelings are hurt. We form even stronger alliances with each other and start to push back against the forced change.

Everything that matters in this world centers around strong relationships. Newspapers need to nurture the interactive aspect of that for ALL readers.

Libby, Lou, John Laird, Howard Buck and all the others I have enjoyed exchanging ideas with over the past two years or more: keep visiting us on the Forums. Let us know that we are still important customers because guess what?

We are. :)

manthou — June 17, 2011 at 6:35 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

...and thanks Libby...if you should ever change your mind, my offer stands.

nailingit — June 17, 2011 at 6:36 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

Libby Tucker --- Columbian --- June 17

"Associate with men of good quality if you esteem your own reputation; for it is better to be alone than in bad company." George Washington

That is exactly why I have chosen to associate with the contributors on these forums. I believe that I have mentioned before that the FB side has a lot of contributors from out of the Cowlitz/Clark/Skamania area.

I have noticed that the former contributors that I had on Ignore User are on FB or are not participating. The contributors who seem to have some education and/or experience, call on that to present some cogent discussions here. I don't know anyone so I have had to assume that Clark County has a lot of trust fund babies or very wealthy people. Otherwise, so many seem to want to vote against their own best interests if they are low or middle to upper income. Also, so many follow talking points from sources that are funded on a national level.

buckeye71 — June 17, 2011 at 6:52 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

Libby, I appreciate you responding to my comment. Hopefully the Columbian can grow from this experience and keep the forums afloat (with the help of those who post of course)...possibly to achieve a balance so that those who only post in the forum won't feel like they've been caste aside like an old rag doll. As this new feature continues to grow, maybe there can be some article-specific forums rather than general speaking forums with a title only. And Libby, do you know if there's any way possible to get the comment at the beginning of the forums changed? After two weeks, I'm pretty sure that by now everyone knows that to respond on a specific article, they must have a valid Facebook account. Maybe just a list of the most popular headlines could be listed (with a direct link to the article for those who would like to read it before making a comment) for starters.

Hey, I'm just tryin' to come up with ideas to improve things.

goldenoldie — June 17, 2011 at 7:34 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

GOLDIE'S BACK!!!!!!

wanna run for identity clark county or economic development..? maybe you can infiltrate the crc cabal.

DeeLittle — June 17, 2011 at 7:39 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

hehe....DeeLittle, have you ever noticed lately how much the name, Identity Clark County is such an oxymoron? After all, Clark County is losing it's identity with the CRC. Maybe they need to rename it "PLEASE Identify Clark County."

goldenoldie — June 17, 2011 at 7:47 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

Oh crud. I'm going apostrophe crazy again''''''''''!!!

it's should be its.

goldenoldie — June 17, 2011 at 7:49 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

Here's a big SHOUT OUT to all the Penguins who graduated last night from Clark College!

Congratulations to each and every one of you. I wish absolute success to you all!!!

goldenoldie — June 17, 2011 at 7:52 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

MR. JOHN LAIRD,

I just checked up on your weekly column. Cranky Bob, Lew Waters, and a few of their neoCon right wing compatriots have ambushed you. Too bad this group got shut out - I for one would greatly enjoy expounding on why Reagan was a horrible president.

How about if you post a topic to this side next week? I suspect your audience would be much wider and much more diverse in opinion.

roger — June 17, 2011 at 8:23 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

roger: Good suggestion! I actually emailed Mr. Laird to personally comment on his column last week, which I did enjoy.

manthou — June 17, 2011 at 8:56 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

My neighbor needed to contact the seller of the property he bought in 2003. There is a manufactured home on the property, and the title company cannot find the title. I was amazed at the info he was able to find for $2.00 on the internet, and using facebook and something called myspace. He found out the seller's name, address, email, past and current addresses, info on her siblings-even a dispute that ended up in court as the family members contested the settling of their parent's will over businesses they owned in Portland. Now I know why I don't and never will use facebook, etc. My wife used it for a week or two to keep up with the kids. Eventually she was bombarded with requests from people wanting to be her "friend". No way I'd go within a hundred miles of that crap. If the "C" thinks their facebook approach is somehow superior, more power to them. It's not, in my opinion. In terms of popularity, it's a blatant flop-just check the number of posts. Perhaps the "C" tracks success in a manner that doesn't reflect participation (as they must if they consider the change an improvement) but so be it-it's their game. I've since discontinued buying the printed edition, but still look at the grocery ads we receive weekly-for free. The rest goes straight into my chimney starter to light charcoal. That's about as "chatted up" as I get from the Columbian-as if they care.

mrd — June 17, 2011 at 10:40 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

MEH....uh, yeah, you do

DeeLittle — June 18, 2011 at 2:55 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

We've managed, us commenters, a good long run without taking pot shots at each other. Now we want to go at each other again?

Wassup?

Join me on the Downtown development forum. According to today's Columbian (see Clark County), Larry Patella, the owner of the from-the-ashes Carter Park gem that used to be Marcell's Coffee and Hemp House, may install video poker in his new digs.

manthou — June 18, 2011 at 6:36 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

CORRECTION: Mr. Patella may be offering lottery games. No mention of video poker. My jumpy error.

Join us over at the Downtown Development forum, anyway. Roger, buckeye71 and I are getting a little lonely over there. :)

Thank you, Larry, for restoring your building. We appreciate it. But, I am wondering (to be continued)........

manthou — June 18, 2011 at 6:47 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

Facebook...you as a person commenting is not the problem. I'm happy to be back so we can share in constructive discussion. Facebook as a social networking system...well, that's a whole different ballgame.

And your potshot about me being back??? It is deserved. I know, I'm quite predictable, aren't I???

goldenoldie — June 18, 2011 at 6:52 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

MRD, you weren't able to find the title, most likely because you'd have to go through Department of Licensing. Since they were brought in on wheels, they are considered a vehicle. Now as far as the rest of your comment about social networking sites and personal information. I thank you for sharing since what you have provided is the NUMBER ONE REASON why I will not utilize MySpace, Facebook or any other social networking site like these.

goldenoldie — June 18, 2011 at 7:05 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

Wow Lou, I just got done reading your "tease" of David Madore on Press Talk this week. Looks like you might spark a little fun conversation with David on that one. There's an old cliche' that says "Don't put all your eggs in one basket." I think David found his basket of eggs too full. In my opinion, he is obviously quite a busy man and made a business decision...nothing more, nothing less.

goldenoldie — June 18, 2011 at 7:35 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

Good Press Talk this morning, I agree. Madore is a smart businessman, but needs some seasoning when it comes to running for political office. I think he is way over-estimating the number of supporters his No Tolls agenda has. That is the risk one takes when a person only engages with like-minded people. Your world view gets limited and skewed and you start believing your version of the truth is the only version.

You'll have to come over the the Forums, though, Lou, to converse with a greater number of us loyal readers.

Hope to see you on here today. :)

manthou — June 18, 2011 at 8 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

Yeah Lou...we won't bite (at least, not too much...).

Manthou, after several years of utilizing internet, I came to realize recently that what you say about a person engaging in discussion with Like-Minded People may not only be the fault of the person who has made himself quite public. I recently read an article about how our times we share on the internet and the companies we work with, be it Yahoo, google or what have you...have a system set to guide us to other "like-minded" sites. I thought "aw baloney" till I realized that whenever I'd google a topic, websites I had visited months ago were popping up on a list on my search engine. My computer is set to delete the sites I visited once I was through...and there they were.

Also, whenever you utilize your email site, did you notice the advertisements that show up as you sign in (at least with yahoo), match what your current interests are? A great example in my case is that I've been checking out "extreme couponing" just to see what it was about. Right away, Yahoo displayed "Groupons." The next time I went on to see was another coupon website and a drop down list of other "money saving websites." Now I am recognizing a lot of spam in my spam box which correlates with the trend.

So I guess what I'm saying is that anything Mr. Madore (or any of us) does on the web, if not recognized immediately by the individual surfing the net...the companies who he uses to search for a topic...any topic... will locate sites with entities with the same interests. A form of Society control...social control is how I perceive it.

goldenoldie — June 18, 2011 at 8:18 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

GO- it was my neighbor-not me.

Would the Dept of Licensing have the title? It seems to me they would only have the registration. I thought titles always were in the possession of the owner or lienholder, ie, a bank or credit union. But if the DOL can help, I'll suggest it to him. He's kinda in a pickle over this title thing.

mrd — June 18, 2011 at 8:31 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

Oops, my bad mrd. Well anyhow, I hope I was able to provide some kind of help. It could be the title has been dropped given the age of the mobile home (I'm assuming it's an older one)...kind of like an old abandoned rust bucket of a car that has seen better days. I think they'd have to go through the same process to acquire a salvaged title in that case.

And mrd, please stick around for awhile. I enjoy sharing notes with ya! If the forum was meant to be ended, it will end. If not, we should continue our freedom of expression on here. It has become more friendly lately. Now as far as the FB side...whew! I wouldn't go their for nuthin!

goldenoldie — June 18, 2011 at 8:39 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

Goldie @ 8:18 am. There is a best-seller by Eli Pariser called, "The Filter Bubble: What the Internet is Hiding from You."

It addresses this problem and the one I mention at 8 am very well.

manthou — June 18, 2011 at 8:40 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

dang...time for a cuppa coffee.

"their" should be "there."

goldenoldie — June 18, 2011 at 8:40 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

Manthou, thanks. I believe that's the same book I believe the article was talking about.

Great minds, you know.

goldenoldie — June 18, 2011 at 8:42 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

One more observation about the C's FB World and then I am off to peruse red meat at Butcher Boys. Can't have Father's Day without the stuff.

The FB commentary is hard to read. Period. It does not make it easy to post longer opinions. I guess that could be good depending on your point of view. :)

And it does not allow for easy conversations.

You post and go. Reduces interaction or sanitizes it.

manthou — June 18, 2011 at 9:33 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

FB commentary is the Starbucks and Walmart of internet conversation. It standardizes everything to the point that it all looks the same. You know what to expect, but it is boring. It discourages diversity.

Ya just don't want to hang around there too long to build the relationships that foster discussion.

manthou — June 18, 2011 at 9:39 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

Good write on the Madore INN n OUT article. DM seems to take himself quite seriously, the brave face might take some time. Where's the sun? Life without coffee would be hell.

I'm on my second cup of coffee and it occurred to me what differs these comments from FB, and no new news here, just early morning brain disease, is continuity. I am starting my own column which will be titled...'RAndomthoughTS'. Topics to include local and national politics and the rising cost of garbanzo beans. Look for this feature at the up and coming Daze Inn.

goldenoldie it's good to see you post once again. Manthou thanks for the recommend. Allen I dub thee "TOP COMMMENATOR". Libby has a lot on her plate warding off advances from anonymous posters, and if I may bestow this honor upon thee.

Peace and love to all.

nailingit — June 18, 2011 at 10:10 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

Quisp, I'm grinning from ear to ear...and it's top CommenATOR! Get it right, will ya??? Now you know you'll have to peek at my comments when you read the other responses. I'm sure your "Ignore User" feature will get quite a workout, Q. Hehe, you remind me of "Q" on Star Trek Voyager, lol.

Keep smiling!

goldenoldie — June 18, 2011 at 1:14 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

This is much better than the FB section. I didn't realize until recently that the "Forum" section existed. I guess I'm I'm a little SLOW! Now this is more like it!

scotty — June 19, 2011 at 10:35 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

COLUMBIAN,

Kindly expand on the information provided in Stephanie Rice's article entitled Fines Bring Pet Owners to Heel.

County Animal Control states they spent $14.4K on emergency vet treatment,$156.5K for shelter costs, and $8K for coyote control last year. Over 2 years, if an average cost, this will total about $358K.

In the same article it states there are about 6000 cats and 19000 dogs licensed in the county. Assuming all are neutered/spayed (they're not), at $10 per year for cats and $16 per year for dogs, $728K over the same 2 years is taken in.

That leaves the County's $1.7 million and $370K in collected fees to account for. What do they spend $1 million per year on?

As a side note, SW WA Humane Society and the no-kill shelters all run on donations; none list the County as a source of funding. So what is the county paying out for - wild animals and livestock?

And finally, brother coyote is a bit too clever to be easily trapped by humans. Is it safe to guess that this $8K was spent trapping maybe a couple of them? And I suppose they're taken somewhere and released, just to return?

roger — June 19, 2011 at 3:29 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

@GO- more on the same-but anyway-my daughter and son-in-law where over today, being Father's Day and all, and he told me of his forays into facebook etc to find out how to get his boat back from some mechanic that worked on it at his shop (the mechanic's) then closed up, locked up, and vanished.

Again, I was stunned. He found out so much personal info on this guy and his contacts, including the guy's mom, I was amazed-totally weird. There is basically worldwide access to all of this info also. Posting on Facebook is ridiculous. When he went into the details about fake set-ups, I said I've heard enough-let's eat.

I was showing him some info we got from Comcast-Xinfinity I believe- on how to protect your kids from people on facebook. I'd NEVER go on facebook myself, much less allow any of my kids do the same. Scary chit out there.

mrd — June 19, 2011 at 5:33 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )