Open Forum, June 20-26



Most read stories on last week:

  1. Accident victim identified as Clark College official

  2. Vancouver man arrested after fatal accident

  3. Nine arrested in sweep for drugs, guns

  4. Washougal Mayor Sean Guard faces misdemeanor charge

  5. Vancouver Plaza courts new tenants

Starting June 1, readers must comment on stories using a Facebook account. This forum has been created to allow registered users to continue online discussions under your existing profile. The open forum will be refreshed once a week to allow for easier commenting.

The forums will still be moderated by Columbian staff and our community guidelines and terms of service still apply.

Only Columbian staff members can create new forum threads.

Don't see a forum topic here that fits your comments? Suggest one here.



Hello all. Let's have some good discussions. Thanks!

Lou Brancaccio (Columbian Staff) — June 20, 2011 at 6:03 a.m. ( | suggest removal

MLK was spot on!

scotty — June 20, 2011 at 6:39 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Good Morning, Lou. Are you planning on sticking around a bit on the forum? From this reader's vantage point, all the discussions on the forum have been good...maybe even an exemplary of what a comment section should provide with opinions from all sides of the spectrum. They are honest, open, and nobody's afraid to say what they really want to say. We're kept on our toes with certain eliminations but that goes with the territory. Yeah, we may be in your "basement" online...but the temperature's just right for taking a good dip into the cyber world to voice our opinions the way it should be intended...not like the pasteurized version on that "Social Network" site. Social Network??? More like Society Manipulation Network...but again Lou, that's just my honest and open opinion.

Stick around!!! You might learn something (posted with a Cheshire grin on my face).

Keep Smilin', Lou! Summer's about to hit us with both barrels loaded (Thank Heavens! Maybe, we'll get some blossoms on our tomatoes!!!!).

goldenoldie — June 20, 2011 at 7:31 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Rob McKenna's faulty math is just the tip of the iceberg:

Remember: Prosecutors are permitted to legally lie. They get used to it. I will never vote for a prosecutor for any office other than prosecutor.

Yes. Gregoire was one, too.

manthou — June 20, 2011 at 7:46 a.m. ( | suggest removal

BTW: His standing in front of that white board reminds me of Glenn Beck. :)

manthou — June 20, 2011 at 7:47 a.m. ( | suggest removal


Don't all elected critters lie? Never seen one yet that hasn't.

ELISI — June 20, 2011 at 7:52 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Top of the morning to all of you.
I hope all the Dad's out there had a great Father's day!


I'm more than ready for summer! Bring it on, I'm ready!
My tomato plants are loaded with blossoms, one tomato the size of a dime, my pepper plant has 5 peppers, chives, basil, and my Italian parsley are all doing great.. the rest of my garden not doing as well.

ELISI — June 20, 2011 at 7:57 a.m. ( | suggest removal

ELISI: A big grin to you and your comment at 7:52 am!

The most harmful lies are the lies of omission: to withold vital information, rather than disclosing it. They are also the most common in politics and prosecution.

manthou — June 20, 2011 at 7:59 a.m. ( | suggest removal


The lies of omissions, aren't they ones we called "white lies" when we were kids? ;)

ELISI — June 20, 2011 at 8:02 a.m. ( | suggest removal

manthou — June 20, 2011 at 7:46 a.m

This guy actually scares me a bit. If he gets into the Governor's house, Washington will turn into Wisconsin. I think he's a hard right wing bagger.

hawkeye — June 20, 2011 at 8:25 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Oh no! A "right wing bagger", can't have any of ***those*** around!

scotty — June 20, 2011 at 8:46 a.m. ( | suggest removal

goldenoldie — June 20, 2011 at 7:31 a.m.

I'm still waiting, my tomatoes are actually starting to grow a little bit more, I think this week will give them a good boost. I hope so.

hawkeye — June 20, 2011 at 8:57 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Lou and or Libby:

The Filter Bubble: What the Internet Is Hiding from You

Then ask "Why are the FB forums defaulted to 'social ranking'?

And "why 'embed' here doesn't see TED, but does see YouTube?"

mr_basil_seal — June 20, 2011 at 9:06 a.m. ( | suggest removal

A 5-4 conservative majored decision sided with Wa-Mart. Hopefully the balance of the Court will change soon. Otherwise change is just hope. The decisions our politically appointed and "trusted" Supreme Court Justices make are far too often a 5-4 split, and always the Roberts court sides with big business over the values of the American people. We need ethical guidelines for these people. For this position, amazingly none exist. They make their own rules. Baggers like Thomas need to be held accountable for their lop sided political dealings. The rules need to change at the top. These justices aren't God or anyone else.

nailingit — June 20, 2011 at 9:09 a.m. ( | suggest removal

hawkeye @ 8:25 am. Yep. McKenna is a bit of a chameleon. He changes when it is adaptively adventageous to his survival.

His consumer protection oversight was always lauded by progressives. I knew he was pandering to the far right, though, when he joined in with the other states challenging the federal health care act. This is not the "moderate" Republican persona he once projected.

He is counting on people NOT doing their math or homework and being attracted to simplistic, sound bite phrases that will further snare the very far right. Depending on how the legisilative races go, he could be a governor with unfettered power. Not good.

I hope the Democrats can mount a viable challenger. Jay Inslee is at the top of the list now, it seems.

manthou — June 20, 2011 at 9:14 a.m. ( | suggest removal

"Don't see a forum topic here that fits your comments? Suggest one here."

An interesting experiment would be to set up a daily forum specifically for the LttE of the day and compare the discussion points and how posters on each interact.

mr_basil_seal — June 20, 2011 at 9:15 a.m. ( | suggest removal

basil @9:06 am: Thanks for the video clip of Eli Pariser's short talk. The book is excellent and a must-read.

When we limit our exposure to only those ideas that make us comfortable, growth and progress suffer. So does Democracy.

manthou — June 20, 2011 at 9:29 a.m. ( | suggest removal

manthou and allycat,


Filter bubble is being discussed in a set of specific and important examples @

Especially relevant with the Opinion pages recently being stormed by the anti-vacs and whether Obama is Constitutionally qualified to be president threads.

mr_basil_seal — June 20, 2011 at 10:02 a.m. ( | suggest removal


10 Ways to Pop Your Filter Bubble

So you want to pop your filter bubble — to see the neutral, un-filtered, un-personalized web. How do you go about it?

Unfortunately, there are no magic bullets: The ad companies and personal data vendors that power and profit from personalization are far more technologically advanced than most of the tools for controlling your personal data. That’s why The Filter Bubble calls on companies and governments to change the rules they operate by — without those changes, it’s simply not possible to escape targeting and personalization entirely.

But that doesn’t mean all is lost. Here are 10 simple steps you can take to de-personalize your web experience. They won’t work forever, but for now they’ll take you out of your own personal echo chamber.

1. Burn your cookies.

2. Erase your web history.

3. Tell Facebook to keep your data private.

4. It’s your birthday, and you can hide it if you want to.

5. Turn off targeted ads, and tell the stalking sneakers to buzz off.

6. Go incognito.

7. Or better yet, go anonymous.

8. Depersonalize your browser.

9. Tell Google and Facebook to make it easier to see and control your filters.

10. Tell Congress you care.

mr_basil_seal — June 20, 2011 at 10:09 a.m. ( | suggest removal

I wonder how soon it will be possible for insurance companies, banks, employers, heck anyone, to check you out based on the sites you've visited on the internet. Kinda scary actually, but the way information is golden these days, and there's very few things of value to be produced otherwise, it shouldn't be too long.

mrd — June 20, 2011 at 10:29 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Hi all, I've added a list of our most read stories for last week to the top of the forum at GO's request. I compile this list every Monday for the newsroom from our Google analytics, so I figure, why not share it with our readers as well? I'll also post this to our home page. We don't have a "most read" feature on the site yet, though it's in the works. When that happens, we'll have a list that updates in real time.

Libby Clark — June 20, 2011 at 10:47 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Hey, I like the list of the most-read articles at the beginning of this forum today. Nice touch.

ELISI, I'm jealous. All my tomatoes have blossoms but are still underdeveloped. The plants themselves are quite tall, though. The potatoes are doing FANTASTIC and my corn and shell beans are poking their noses out of the ground. (noses??? well, I'm sure everyone knows what I mean)

Hawkeye, I'm so glad warmer weather is finally approaching. I only hope it doesn't get too hot this summer. I guess we'll take whatever we can get. It could be worse...we could be facing the same problems of the midwest.

goldenoldie — June 20, 2011 at 10:48 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Basil - we sent that TED talk around to the Web team a few weeks ago and it spurred an interesting discussion on personalization of the news. The filter bubble is not a new concept, though Pariser has a book out so it's getting more attention. I've also heard an interesting rebuttal on WNYC's On the Media that challenges Pariser's conclusions. Food for thought.

Libby Clark — June 20, 2011 at 10:54 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Good mornin' Libby. I see our posts were quite close to each other. Must be we were channeling each others' minds, lol. Anyhow, the addition is a welcome sight not only for subject matter to discuss as there doesn't seem to be an issue with finding things to talk about in our county...but I also like how we could easily open a new tab with one or more of the articles of the week to reference in order to get our fact straight as to what was reported. Again, nice touch. Thanks.

goldenoldie — June 20, 2011 at 10:55 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Yikes! I did not read one of the "most read" last week. I must not be in sync.....

Libby: any insights into how long the articles usually stay up in the rotating banner on the front web page? I noticed the AP McKenna piece has already been moved to the Politics area. Seemed a little quick to me.

Thank you for joining in once in awhile. It is appreciated.

manthou — June 20, 2011 at 11:10 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Libby Tucker (Columbian Staff) — June 20, 2011 at 10:54 a.m

Thanks for continuing the discussion.

Two points about J. Weisberg's points:

His study, as he says is not complete. We have no idea of the internet experiences/history of his participants. If they have no political history, then google wouldn't have anything to work from. Localization works on queries that are more service and material oriented; where's the closest, who has a good local page rank, tec.

His point about pre-internet being just as bubbled isn't really well explored; there were (and are) bookstores, magazines, and in larger markets there are alternative weeklies - remember that WW over the river would, and does, cover some WA issues. Admittedly, media with the three big networks would create a bubble. And rw talk radio moved in to partially fill some of that void.

And as E. Zuckerman pointed out, what is an important consideration is who is doing the choosing and developing of the search algorithm. Google doesn't have a spotless record in terms of transparency, Comcast has been found to be manipulating traffic.

Interestly, none bring up the issue of vocabulary; obviously if you look up ObamaCare or Hussein Obama (as Top Commentator, B. Larimer uses) you will get different results than using, shall we say, more common and accurate terms.

Then there is the "“Thinking about the political information you find online, would you say it's usually easy or difficult for you to tell what is true from what is not true?” Fifty-six said it is difficult, 33 percent said it is easy."

It would be interesting to see what the analysis is like for determining 'what is true'.

mr_basil_seal — June 20, 2011 at 2:25 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Countdown with Keith Olbermann premieres 5:00 tonight

Go to to find channel for Current TV. This is example for one zip code in Vancouver:

Comcast Corporation Channel 107
DIRECTV Channel 358
DISH Network Channel 196

buckeye71 — June 20, 2011 at 2:57 p.m. ( | suggest removal

manthou We try to refresh the carousel once an hour if there's something newsworthy to post. If there's a lot of breaking news it gets updated more often. Less news, less frequent updates. You may have noticed, too, that we've been experimenting with what kinds of content get "promoted" to the carousel. We've been putting in a lot more wire news in an effort to keep it fresh and relevant. This means that fewer feature articles get posted to the carousel, and more hard news stories are rotated in.

Libby Clark — June 20, 2011 at 3:56 p.m. ( | suggest removal

From the Onion News Network. For amusement purposes only.

dfsadfh — June 20, 2011 at 8:38 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Thanks so much for responding to my question, Libby. I can see that things are very fluid as you all try new ideas. It is interesting to see what gets in the banner spotlight.

We really do appreciate being able to ask questions and receive responses from reporters.

manthou — June 20, 2011 at 9:27 p.m. ( | suggest removal

My absolute favorite article written by John Branton thus far! Thanks for the write, John!

goldenoldie — June 21, 2011 at 6:13 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Libby and Lou, I have a suggestion for you to ponder. On the forums that do not have any activity after two weeks (at the very most), why not archive them??? If any of us who have made comments want to go back and read, we can always access them through our wall under "comments."

Just a thought.

goldenoldie — June 21, 2011 at 6:18 a.m. ( | suggest removal

goldenoldie- I can imagine what names they would assign to the archives! Personally I think after a week at best just delete everything. If something is 'groundbreaking' which I haven't seen yet, someone could save it themselves...

~Our words are but fodder for the hearth of life, to be pushed into the fire and ravaged by the flames of democracy, while being skewed from the very breadth of our souls~

nailingit — June 21, 2011 at 8:48 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Has anyone read the Facebook comments (on the other side) for the following article:

Vancouver calls off talk of ban on pit bulls ---- June 20th, 2011 @ 1731

I can't believe that the comments from Donn Dilla from BC- Canada have been allowed to stay. I can see that the FB format has really raised the bar.

seamuscallan — June 21, 2011 at 8:59 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Good point, nailingit. I'm in agreement. Hopefully they can just delete the history before it's archived on a national database...if it isn't already.

BTW, I like the depth of your quote but it escapes me on just who originated it. Care to reveal?

goldenoldie — June 21, 2011 at 9:03 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Seamus, when I first read that article this morning, I sent a comment voicing my concerns to Libby regarding the foul writes of that person who obviously has some major issues.

goldenoldie — June 21, 2011 at 9:06 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Uh Boy!

Alleycat, it's already that time of year again? Are you going? Me???? Naw...but I find their gathering....interesting to read about. It reminds me of the 60's and early 70's free spirit days.

goldenoldie — June 21, 2011 at 9:07 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Golden - By the way, it is good to see you back commenting...even if it is in the basement with the rest of us.

seamuscallan — June 21, 2011 at 9:10 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Thanks, Seamus. Even basements can be flipped from a cold, damp and dark dungeon to a wonderful living space. How about we turn our basement into a media a man cave but something we can all benefit from????? Heck, we're already much better quality than the FB side of things. We even include music videos and the click of a mouse...thanks in part to Alleycat and others who share.

Party like a rock star!

goldenoldie — June 21, 2011 at 9:13 a.m. ( | suggest removal

9:03-Hi popped up in my noggin' to go to point. Thanks though, unfortunately my thoughts aren't worth the keyboard they are typed on!

nailingit — June 21, 2011 at 9:13 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Alleycat, don't they call that type of experience...Utopia?

goldenoldie — June 21, 2011 at 9:14 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Nailingit, don't sell yourself short. Your quote had a lot of meaning to it and I'm appreciative that you shared it with everyone.

goldenoldie — June 21, 2011 at 9:16 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Glad they caught the Seattle murder suspect who abandoned the stolen vehicle in Woodland this morning. That must have been quite an unnerving night for the residents in the little town on the Lewis. I guess they caught him near the schools.

goldenoldie — June 21, 2011 at 9:19 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Have you noticed? Another problem with going to the Facebook comments is that when a Facebook page is deleted or comments are deleted from a personal Facebook page, it deletes the comments from the Columbian. All of the comments from "Just Say No to Farrell House Event Center" are now gone from the Columbian because they deleted that Facebook page, and when a reply to a comment from Jon Russell was posted he didn't like, he deleted his own comment from his personal page, thus deleting that comment and the reply from the Columbian.

Striker991 — June 21, 2011 at 11:05 a.m. ( | suggest removal


15 High-Profile Sites That Google Doesn't Want You to See

Do you know the location of the view labeled:


buckeye71 — June 21, 2011 at 11:12 a.m. ( | suggest removal

seamuscallan — June 21, 2011 at 8:59 a.m

I went to look at the posts but it had already been removed. Was it really out there?

I don't care for the FB side, they aren't in order and you can't follow the train of thought easily. Usually, each post has something to do with the next but with FB, they are all over the map.

hawkeye — June 21, 2011 at 11:38 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Anyone hear anything about Fannie and Freddie plans to foreclosing on 700,000 home by the end of this year?

ELISI — June 21, 2011 at 11:51 a.m. ( | suggest removal

That should read "foreclose" not foreclosing..

ELISI — June 21, 2011 at 11:53 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Alleycat: I just had to say that after watching the videos regarding the Rainbow Gathering...what I thought was lost in the past has continued and lives on today and that is Free Spirit, something nobody can ever take away from us, my friend.


Hawkeye, it was a nasty set of comments by that person on FB. Unfortunately, that's one of the unforeseen issues of any Social Networking sites that the C might have overlooked. I'm sure it won't be the last time something like that happens.

goldenoldie — June 21, 2011 at 12:57 p.m. ( | suggest removal

hawkeye — June 21, 2011 at 11:38 a.m.

Part of the 'filter bubble' in that C has decided to default to Social Ranking rather than chron or reverse chronological order.

So, yes there is a lack of coherency in responses. Instead, you get whoever has the most 'like' clicks up at the top

That really messes up the coherency when there are several replies to a first level comment.

Striker991 — June 21, 2011 at 11:05 a.m.

I was wondering why there were some comments with quoted material and I couldn't find the orig. So your exp. and / or some heavy handed deleting by the C. fits.

mr_basil_seal — June 21, 2011 at 1:11 p.m. ( | suggest removal


PadmaRani — June 21, 2011 at 1:25 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Alleycat, with the upcoming Rainbow Gathering to be held in the GPNF in July, I'm wondering something. I noticed they will be starting the morning on July 4th off with an "Ohm" session. I am quite curious if at these celebrations...if they have ever offered the "Oneness Blessing."

I was fortunate to experience the "Oneness Blessing" while in Australia and it has changed my perception on life tremendously.

Anybody else in Columbianland ever experience it?

goldenoldie — June 21, 2011 at 1:46 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Deeksha? Yes.

PadmaRani — June 21, 2011 at 2:06 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Padma and GO: That makes three of us.

Maybe we can start a critical mass of "we are One", uniting the FB and Forum followers. :)

manthou — June 21, 2011 at 2:50 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Yes PadmaRani, I speak of Deeksha. For someone who had never heard of the Oneness before, it *was* quite an enlightening experience. It appears I was quite receptive to the blessing. Oh, if more people could have the chance to cleanse their minds just once....... . . . .

goldenoldie — June 21, 2011 at 3:06 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Alley, you can take a mile rather than just an inch if you choose. I will not invade your inch. Freedom comes from within. If you don't have freedom of your inner thoughts, everything else is suppressed as well.

goldenoldie — June 21, 2011 at 3:08 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Manthou, if it were meant to be, the F & FB would already be connected. The people who post on FB??? I believe they already are connected. Why else would so many be turning away from FB to share comments on the forum. We have enlightened them to the problems well before they began. Some had to experience the issues while others avoided them.

goldenoldie — June 21, 2011 at 3:12 p.m. ( | suggest removal

goldie: ;D

manthou — June 21, 2011 at 3:19 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Google Mist, Oregon. It's there at the intersection of 47 (Apiary Road) and 202. Heading NW on 202, you come to the town of Birkenfeld. But about a mile or so from the 47/202 intersection, there's a bridge on 202 on a little road going north/south. This is the Hood/Portland to Coast route, so I've always been in a bit of a hurry and never bothered to explore. Wonder if there's something worth seeing there?

roger — June 21, 2011 at 3:19 p.m. ( | suggest removal

The facebook comment secion is boring. There are rarely any comments that are worth reading.

Woosker — June 21, 2011 at 3:22 p.m. ( | suggest removal


No - it isn't worth seeing. But I'm glad I don't live nearby.

roger — June 21, 2011 at 3:30 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Actually, there are a few good comments on the facebook side. Most are from a conservative viewpoint. And Rep Moeller is doing a good job of showing that he represents the liberal agenda that sounds good in Oly, but doesn't exactly play down here.

Oh - Bobbo says we're all nasty and mean spirited on these forums. Has he sold out and is he now kissing up to Lou? Or was he being sarcastic? If the latter, then he's a lot sharper than I've been giving him credit for.

roger — June 21, 2011 at 3:40 p.m. ( | suggest removal

So, roger: I've been on a Hood-to-Coast team passing through that area and drive by on my way to Arch Cape.

What is it about this-place-that-Google-doesn't-want-us-to-see that makes you not want to live nearby? ;-\

manthou — June 21, 2011 at 3:41 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Thanks. I agree --- glad I don't live nearby.

buckeye71 — June 21, 2011 at 3:42 p.m. ( | suggest removal

So, it may have something to do with FEMA or HAARP, according to rumors? Fascinating.

manthou — June 21, 2011 at 3:51 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Libby Tucker just tweeted this on Twitter. I'm posting without comment.


LibbyTucker LibbyTucker
Very excited that @thecolumbian's new slogan is "Community Begins Here." Reflects our new focus. Look for it tomorrow in our print edition.

buckeye71 — June 21, 2011 at 5:37 p.m. ( | suggest removal

buckeye71 — June 21, 2011 at 5:37 p.m

***OK !!!! NOW I'M EXCITED TOO !!!***

hawkeye — June 21, 2011 at 8:31 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Manthou, regarding Mist....I might know a good reason, thanks to an open website free for everyone to read. I'll send you a private message. I don't want to feed the terror sect of our world, you know.

goldenoldie — June 22, 2011 at 6:09 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Okay...NOW I'm really peeved. Not only is the concept design photo inaccurate, the idiocy of such a development at Central Park STUPID and ILL PLANNED!

First of all, by the picture depicted, that parking garage would extend across Clark College Grounds in order to fit in that area. The distance from I-5 to Clark isn't that large.

SECONDLY...for the number of vehicles it would take to fill that parking garage, the traffic would be horrendous in that area. I don't give a rat's patooty if it were coming from the freeway or coming from Ft Vancouver Way, Mill Plain or Fourth Plain.

FINALLY (sort of), if...and that's a big IF the parking garage were to fill to capacity for the LRT system, then the purpose of getting the cars off the road due to a fuel crunch would be all but thrown out the window.

Hey idiots planning the CRC!!! Do you realize yet that it takes people to *DRIVE* their cars *TO* your parking structure in order to catch LRT? And if you think the electric cars are the you not realize that it still takes fossil fuels yet to charge them? Clean Energy???

Poor Design Strategy

Poor Planning


goldenoldie — June 22, 2011 at 6:20 a.m. ( | suggest removal

goldenoldie — June 22, 2011 at 6:20 a.m

I saw that story and started to laugh. They think they have gridlock now, just wait.


hawkeye — June 22, 2011 at 6:37 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Hawkeye, there's no other word that befits the planners of the Columbia River Crossing. If anybody wants to discuss the dumbing down of America...the prime example is the Crossing officials...right down to those involved in entities like C-Tran and our city/county government. They've all sold out on the idea that it is mandatory to replace the bridge with light rail...or even replace the bridge at all!!!

The promoters are trying the "scare tactic" regarding bridge lifts and how they tie up rush hour traffic and how we need the most ridiculous overpriced, overburdened rip off of the century...yet this morning there was a bridge lift after 5:00 am and if you take a peek at and view the traffic on the Washington side of the river...there's hardly any vehicles at 6:52 am...the height of rush hour! When on Tripcheck, take a peek at insert A, I-5 at Rose Garden and at Lombard. I-5 at Lombard has more traffic than Vancouver at Hwy 14. Rose Garden??? The only time I've ever seen it quiet was 6:00 am Sunday Morning.

They ARE idiots, other name for them, that's for sure!

goldenoldie — June 22, 2011 at 6:56 a.m. ( | suggest removal

To the Columbian...Why are FB commenters still allowed to use anything but their face on facebook?

Does Jon Alldritt realize spell check is a free download? Dude! Alley...why the never ending bold print? Why did the baggers in the Senate stop the Dems job bill yesterday? If community begins here, where is the pepto? Why so many questions?

nailingit — June 22, 2011 at 7:34 a.m. ( | suggest removal

nailingit: Like any "community", neighbors tend to get on each other's nerves. :)

manthou — June 22, 2011 at 8 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Alleycat, in your wisdom, you speak "United We Stand, Divided We Fall." True, very true but to ignore the hypocrisy of the strings of government failure such as in cases like the columbia river crossing or even a war we can never win...and failure to speak up against the wrongdoings put in front of us... are you not turning your back on your stance in fighting for the rights you seek? *What do you expect everyone to do? Pack up and leave to Utopia?* Just where is that Utopia, Alleycat? Not everybody has reached their "Chi" and there's no place on this God's Green Earth that is Utopia. Maybe snippets of it, but certainly not it. No matter where you go, somebody's government controls you and it is important for everyone to speak their mind. My friend, we must stand up and fight for what we believe in and in this day and age, it takes words. It doesn't matter if it's words on a website, words at a city council meeting or words at an organized protest. Words are mighty powerful, alley. A unity of thoughts is what brings us together. We all must stand and fight for what's right and as far as the CRC Project, that's far from right.

goldenoldie — June 22, 2011 at 8:37 a.m. ( | suggest removal get action, it takes words to instill action and it should be words backed by verifiable fact rather than emotion based rhetoric. To deny yourself the need to speak what's on your are exercising censorship of yourself by the pressures of those who oppose you.

Words are mighty powerful and when used correctly, they can move mountains (figuratively speaking of course).

One more thing, Alleycat. When you speak of "getting away from it all" by taking a ride with your buddies on your bikes??? You're not getting away from it all as long as you must fill your gas tank and license your bike. You are only getting away from the pressures of it all.

Just some food for thought.

goldenoldie — June 22, 2011 at 8:45 a.m. ( | suggest removal

I love the Columbian's slogan: Community Begins Here....(unless you do not have a Facebook page...that WE approve of, and unless you disagree with our staff too much).

seamuscallan — June 22, 2011 at 9:20 a.m. ( | suggest removal

About Google maps and Mist, was fun when it was mysterious. The apparent reality is a bit of a letdown. I just read the Wikipedia entry for Mist, OR:,_Or

I doubt it is a coincidence.

JiveSoulBro — June 22, 2011 at 9:22 a.m. ( | suggest removal


Thanks. It makes sense. It just took your extra step of research to show a common sense answer.

buckeye71 — June 22, 2011 at 9:46 a.m. ( | suggest removal need for apologies dude. People express themselves in different ways. I tend to be too... crass I suppose for some. I pontificate on meaningless scenario's, such as words that rhyme with crass, and for the most part, embracing most of the words that do. I think when voices are unified on basic humanitarian principles, it births power. A collective righting of the ship, brings authority from a different plane of existence, an existence to this point that only physical death brings to clarity. The many faces of Jesus painted with brushes from those yet to reveal themselves. The road ahead will be bountiful for those that have chosen compassion, charity, and lived their existence with heart and hope for all, regardless of race, religion or ethnicity. Those that have used this life as their personal toilet shall move on with the respect they deserve, and for once the end will justify the means.


Peace to all, and what's up with the weather? Started out beautiful..then not so's getting better again...why do I have so many questions? What's for dinner?

nailingit — June 22, 2011 at 9:47 a.m. ( | suggest removal


Somewhere I read that 40 homes will be removed for the CRC.
I have to ask,... from the picture of the plan, it looks to me that the park and all the buildings across from Clark from Mill Plain to 4th Plain will be eliminated also?

Golden, you also brought up the fact of having to "plug into" for the electric cars. Does anyone besides you and I understand that will use up another of our most valuable natural resource?
Is this another ploy to rise electric rates to the point the government will step in and have total control of it also?

ELISI — June 22, 2011 at 9:47 a.m. ( | suggest removal

"use up another of our most valuable natural resource"

Most plans for parking facilities now include solar.

mr_basil_seal — June 22, 2011 at 10:59 a.m. ( | suggest removal

buckeye Thanks for posting my tweet and for following me on Twitter! The slogan is part of our larger strategy to engage more with the community online and offline. The next few months will be making much progress in our community development. Stay tuned!

Allen We're not integrating FB comments and anonymous comments because that would defeat the point of switching to FB comments. We're promoting the use of real names, as best we can enforce it, which is also why you see comments from organizations disappearing from the site. We welcome organizations to comment, but are asking individuals within the orgs to post.

basil The order of FB comments on our site is not under our control. We'd like to present it in reverse chronological order but we're using the most basic version of Facebook comments plugin and therefore can't change it. When and if we upgrade, we can customize it. This is a trial of the feature and we'll see where it goes from here.

Libby Clark — June 22, 2011 at 11:34 a.m. ( | suggest removal

mr_basil_seal — June 22, 2011 at 10:59 a.m.

Do you have any clue how many square meters of solar cells using current technology would be needed to charge one electric vehicle? Solar energy may get us somewhere someday but today it is more like a middle school science project.

frobert — June 22, 2011 at 11:44 a.m. ( | suggest removal

This is a trial of the feature and we'll see where it goes from here.

Libby Tucker (Columbian Staff) — June 22, 2011 at 11:34 a.m.

Libby, I think I can speak for most here who post in the "basement", the FB feature has failed, died, expired, flown the coup and left the building. Seriously, quit wasting your money on it.

hawkeye — June 22, 2011 at 11:57 a.m. ( | suggest removal

LIBBY, may I please ask a question? Why is the Columbian website still allowing people to post on the comments with a Facebook account that does NOT have their real name? For example, the following Facebook account: "Irish Nativeson". Is this because they are friends of the Columbian? I ask that because the Irish Nativeson Facebook page has links/likes of several Columbian reporters and websites.

seamuscallan — June 22, 2011 at 12:45 p.m. ( | suggest removal

mr_basil_seal — June 22, 2011 at 10:59 a.m

Do you not realize that by going "solar" it will cost much more per kilowatt hour compared to cleaner coal, water, and gas powered electricity?

ELISI — June 22, 2011 at 1:04 p.m. ( | suggest removal

"cleaner coal"?

Walk us though how you get that. Wouldn't hurt to discuss gas and effects of dams and and that pesky ACC whilst you're at it.

And discuss cost after you factor in subsidies, and externalities.

mr_basil_seal — June 22, 2011 at 1:13 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Somewhat interestingly is the first poster to the vaccine letter.

Facebook shows her to be from UK.

That's building community....

And it really raises the level of discourse:

Ray would have at least given us a G. Beck vid for support.

mr_basil_seal — June 22, 2011 at 1:20 p.m. ( | suggest removal

frobert — June 22, 2011 at 11:44 a.m

about 50 sq ft.

One example.

and this doesn't look much like a "middle school science project".


"Dickey says the inspiration to drive electric comes from having a child. "It would embarrass me to have to explain to my daughter why we continued to import and burn oil when we knew the consequences," he says. "Having no tune-ups and no trips to the gas station ever is just icing."

By installing a solar system atop his garage, Dickey took the next step in driving a totally clean car. "Now," he says, "I can deflect the comments that my 'electric' car is just a 'coal-burning' car. EVs are the ultimate flex-fuel vehicle. You can make electricity out of just about anything: sun, wind, natural gas, coal—even gasoline! Your fuel can be totally domestic, or in my case, totally local.""

mr_basil_seal — June 22, 2011 at 1:31 p.m. ( | suggest removal

mr_basil_seal — June 22, 2011 at 1:13 p.m

Are solar cells still made with arsenic and other extremely toxic materials?

frobert — June 22, 2011 at 1:43 p.m. ( | suggest removal

mr_basil_seal — June 22, 2011 at 1:31 p.m

That may be a great concept and I hope they can do it, however with the current technology it is more like 100 square meters.

frobert — June 22, 2011 at 1:57 p.m. ( | suggest removal

You mean like the stuff coming out of the "cleaner coal" smokestacks"

Or what comes from gold and copper mining?

And you might note that many are not made with Gallium Arsenide.

And probably worth noting there are several products using GaAs, do you forgo the use of them also?

And, let's see some stats about production effluent that fits your concern. We have the stats on coal and gas to compare with.

mr_basil_seal — June 22, 2011 at 2:01 p.m. ( | suggest removal

frobert — June 22, 2011 at 1:57 p.m


a charging station for 12 cars. About the size of...

12 cars.

Or smaller than your "100 square meters " power your house

Way past the "middle school science project".

mr_basil_seal — June 22, 2011 at 2:11 p.m. ( | suggest removal

frobert, don't forget what it takes to make the batteries...and discard them when they are no longer any good.


Everyone, just about every form of energy we utilize has some negative points hitting our environment in one way or another. Take wind energy for example. Already eagles, bats and owls have been killed by these things. Hydroelectric dams??? Mercury and PCB's in the water. Anybody hear about the dump underground next to Tanner creek, loaded with PCB and other toxic waste??? Natural Gas...pipelines littering the landscape, explosions as we have witnessed in the past in our neck of the woods (Kalama for example). Nuclear technology??? Well, it's changed big time since Trojan but still, it has it's issues as well. I could go on, but I think everyone knows what I'm talking about.

Basil, I've heard there's a new system in coal-fired plants. Here's a link that maybe you'd like to browse through and check the details. Of anybody, you'd be able to provide the facts into whether or not "cleaner coal" is achievable.

goldenoldie — June 22, 2011 at 2:15 p.m. ( | suggest removal

ELISI — June 22, 2011 at 9:47 a.m.

That's what I'm talking about, ELISI. The picture depicted doesn't fit the location. Would that mean that Marshall Center would no longer be??? By the looks of things, this would be right up to the curb along McLoughlin as well as Mill Plain!

As far as electric rates...there are estimates that our electricity bills could rise as much as 55% over the course of ten years. We've gone through that once already in the past several we really want to go there to pacify those whose automobiles run on electricity generated by Coal, Natural Gas, Nuclear or whatever else is chosen?

I think I've got the solution for those who want battery-operated cars. Buy Surrey's! All four occupants will be pedaling their little hearts off! Either that or go for the Flinstone Mobile! Just buy a good pair of running shoes, first.

goldenoldie — June 22, 2011 at 2:20 p.m. ( | suggest removal

that's Flintstones Mobile...oops.

goldenoldie — June 22, 2011 at 2:21 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Basil, did you see how much the carports cost for an individual electric automobile owner?? We're talking $46,000 with about $6,000-7,000 installation on top. Never mind the permits to build the danged thing! The electric cars cost around $33,000 for the Chevy Volt alone. Lithium Batteries around $500-650.

Just how many people do you really think could afford such a setup and how many do you think would be on board for such an investment?

goldenoldie — June 22, 2011 at 2:28 p.m. ( | suggest removal

goldenoldie — June 22, 2011 at 2:15 p.m.

Need to be careful of false equivalencies.

The nuclear storage issue is a 'problem'. So is battery recycling.

However, there are effective recycling programs in place (industrial ev, golf carts, car batts) whereas we haven't found a suitable program for nuclear. Which is why Japan is having so many issues with the earthquake/tsunami caused meltdowns.

I think the clean coal site you linked to is just discussing how the fed gov is sponsoring (subsidizing) research into cleaner coal. What results have we seen?

"our electricity bills could rise as much as "

Lots of variables there; but one part to look at is a full accounting of the costs. We are externalizing production costs now with subsidies, not taking ACC effects, health effects into account.

mr_basil_seal — June 22, 2011 at 2:30 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Absolutely true in my opinion, Basil. They don't take into account the underlying costs which you mention. My point is...all forms of energy have a cost either to the consumer or the environment in more ways than one and that my dear sir, is a proven fact.

..'s an interesting website I've come across. It's good food for thought if you are thinking of investing in an electric car. After reading the article, there's several links toward the bottom of the page which covers other issues regarding electric cars. It's worth taking the time out to read.

goldenoldie — June 22, 2011 at 2:35 p.m. ( | suggest removal

" did you see how much the carports cost "

First, how much per kilowatt does nuc / gas-fired / coal (esp factoring in 'clean coa'l tech) to build now?

Also factor in time frame; how long before one of those goes up and produces?

Then factor in the hidden costs: ACC, nuc fuel recycling / storage , decommissioning, health care, extraction effects....

mr_basil_seal — June 22, 2011 at 2:38 p.m. ( | suggest removal

"that my dear sir, is a proven fact."

Yup, but just to attempt weighting one problem as equal to another.

In way too many ways, it is the same as having a major study on the effects of ACC being compared to a sole crackpot's opinion that cosmic rays are the reason for the earth's warming (or another crackpot claiming it is cooliing) (or another claiming the data was faked)

Yes, solar panels take up some land space, wind takes up some space. But coal has extraction space, transport effects, effluent spread out over a wide uncontrollable area. Nuc has long long term effects, heavy energy inputs before production, high environmental effects.

mr_basil_seal — June 22, 2011 at 2:44 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Did you factor in the cost to replace solar cells as well? Don't get me wrong, Basil. I support solar energy, especially as a supplemental source for home energy consumption. I'm just wondering how cost effective, energy efficient and environmentally sound these little cars and the charging stations really are. I appreciate you providing your input on the matter as I highly regard your opinion. I'm just asking the questions that I'm curious on and also, the questions that others may ask.

goldenoldie — June 22, 2011 at 2:45 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Wait a second!!! You mean to tell me that cosmic rays aren't the reason for the Earth's warming??? Just kidding.

Yes, solar panels do take up a lot of room but when constructed properly like on the top of a carport or on tall enough supports to allow vegetation to thrive beneath them...I'd rather see that than I would a coal-extracting strip mine or triple cooling towers from a major nuke plant or even the smokestack from a coal-fired plant like the one seen for years while on I-84 through Boardman. My own personal preference is hydroelectric, followed by wind and last but not least is solar for mass production energy development but I understand the concern of cost effectiveness with the last two. Seems existing hydroelectric is still the best one on the market in my opinion.

goldenoldie — June 22, 2011 at 2:50 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Photo voltaic cell 150 watts per square meter.

Nissan Leaf battery 24Kw hours.

If the battery is completely depleted 160 square meters for a one hour quick charge just using simple math and not calculating for loss in the charging circuit.

frobert — June 22, 2011 at 2:51 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Along with the problems, there are also best practices. Hydro has a large amount of environmental issues that we haven't been able to overcome. Wind and solar have far fewer.

Two other problems are that we have a growing population (both worldwide and locally. And we don't have a very effective energy efficiency improvement program. We don't have local or regional projects moving in place for hydro or nuc or coal, so siting and building wind and solar is really what we need to be looking at.

And there is that pesky ACC. Notice that the noise level from the deniers has gone way down? It'll be the equivalent of supporting what's her name's '2nd amendment solution' pretty soon.

there is a 'slices of the pie' approach in energy production. It is pretty obvious that we will be continuing to use all the current sources (coal, nuc, gas, solar, wind, hydro) for a long time. The size of the slices will shift as wind and solar build up. Hydro will probably stay about the same. And we will reduce the fossil fuels use which is the main issue.

Something to consider is that hydro was / is a government program; Hoover, Columbia, TVA for electrification of the US. One reason why we need a cohesive US energy policy now

And that impetus -production and efficiency - offers the potential clean energy and skilled jobs that will, just like the previous (TVA, et al) programs, to bring the economy around.

mr_basil_seal — June 22, 2011 at 3:34 p.m. ( | suggest removal


If you check out BBC's Top Gear program and maybe you could find it on youtube, Top Gear did a program showing where the materials come from and where they go in the manufacturing process. They are shipped between Africa, Asia, USA, and Europe and they are all shipped on super freighters. Super freighters are all diesel powered engines, which are huge polluters. Which IMO do far more harm to the environment, and
cost the consumer far too much.

ELISI — June 22, 2011 at 3:41 p.m. ( | suggest removal

frobert — June 22, 2011 at 2:51 p.m.

one hour


We were, originally, talking about commuter parking

-8+ hrs, within regular operating range of your vehicle.

FYI, there are solar panels for the car roof now. Adds about 30+ % range to Prius type vehicles.

And you might want to look into Prologis' projects: hardly your average "middle school science project"

mr_basil_seal — June 22, 2011 at 3:46 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Thanks, I thought that was what I was seeing as far as where the parking garages are planned to go.
Now don't CC use those building across the street?
Plus...I ask like you what will they do about the Marshall center and the park..will they take even more property (homes) in the area to build a new community center or will they force all who use Marshall center now to come my way and use the new one on 136th? Which doesn't have enough parking now as is. With the new library and community center together, one has to fight for a parking spot.

ELISI — June 22, 2011 at 3:48 p.m. ( | suggest removal

ELISI — June 22, 2011 at 3:41 p.m.

Top Gear isn't exactly an economics specialist, nor an environmental advocacy group.

Yup, the solar panel companies aren't building square-rigged sailing ships to move their goods, just as the Rav4 elect and Prius you could buy don't come floating over on a current driven raft.

One argument that keeps being made by those who want to argue against renewable energy is that nothing will happen overnight. True enough, but that argument ignores that the fossil fuel system didn't happen overnight either. And while the Detroit big 3 were whining about improving fuel mileage, the rest of the world was producing the cars we were buying - in large part because of that efficiency.

And as fuel and coal prices go up, how do you think the financial benefits of building up solar and wind will pencil out?

And again, where in your argument does ACC fit in?

mr_basil_seal — June 22, 2011 at 3:58 p.m. ( | suggest removal


We finally have a 'local' comment on the vaccine letter!

mr_basil_seal — June 22, 2011 at 4:04 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Basil, I agree that Top Gear isn't by any mean "experts" but I found the program when I saw it to be very informative, much more so than our own country. Plus it answered many more questions that our government and the companies that make the batteries will tell us.

I agree with you on the big 3. They have known for decades, so has our government. Neither has made a move towards a better way. Same with cleaner coal. The technology is there, but who or what is standing in the way of utilizing it?

Wind power I am in favor of, but like Golden said, it comes with the cost of death of animals, as well as the land use.
The wind turbines are not made here in the USA, most are made in Germany. So there we go again, they also are shipped by super freighters.

ELISI — June 22, 2011 at 4:21 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Well Basil, I was the one who mentioned the solar charging stations near the garages. My reasoning??? Simple. I have provided information from a knowledgeable website regarding length of time vehicles remain charged and the lifespan of a battery in these electric vehicles which by the way are quite heavy...not fit for a hobby mechanic to replace on their own.

You would only make sense that with such a project, they would also implement charging stations for those who drive electric vehicles to the LRT Transit stations since their concern might be that they could get stuck in highway traffic, so naturally...they'd want to know where the nearest stations would be...hopefully set up in one of the parking garages for their convenience. Heck, everything else is going Cadillac on the project so why not add the "Solar Charging Stations" for the religious Eco-minded folks! What's another $100 thousand or so? They've got our money to burn and we gotta help those who can afford the electric cars, their maintenance and upkeep...and keep those gosh darned batteries charged so they can park for free at the garages and ride the rails to their Portland job. Never mind the kids and grandkids. Gotta keep them batteries charged. (end sarcasm)

All kidding aside, Basil...the Environmentally-friendly way is not always the best way in this day and age. Yes, our environment has been affected by human intervention and yes possibly, we have contributed to the ACC issues but in all honesty, we HAVE TO LOOK AT COST EFFECTIVENESS as well as HOW TO REDUCE OUR CARBON FOOTPRINT on the world...but truly, would it make that much difference here in Clark County? How many people could actually afford to go all green in the long run? Also, with the question about EMF's and the utilization of an all-electric car...there could still be underlying issues yet to be addressed. Then there's the new annual fee to run the electric vehicles on the road. And automobile insurance??? Not all companies cover those cars and whoever does probably charges an arm and a leg to insure them. you know of a good mechanic who works on electric cars at a reasonable cost? I'm not sure a golf cart repair shop would qualify as a Certified Electric Car Repair Mechanic. I could continue on, but I think you know where I'm coming from. And of course Basil, that's just my humble opinion.

goldenoldie — June 22, 2011 at 4:33 p.m. ( | suggest removal

ELISI — June 22, 2011 at 4:21 p.m.

"..are not made here in the USA, most are made in Germany."


seems to disagree with you.

" cleaner coal. The technology is there,"
"Ten years ago, the United States and many other countries set joint targets of building a series of experimental low- emissions, high-efficiency coal-fired power plants: FutureGen in America, ZeroGen in Australia, various European efforts without a “Gen” name, and GreenGen in China. America’s FutureGen was proposed early, and China’s GreenGen was proposed late. Now—surprise!—GreenGen is closest to being completed, with its scheduled opening moved up from 2015 to 2013, and FutureGen has only recently begun to move beyond the congressional-wrangling stage."

mr_basil_seal — June 22, 2011 at 5:05 p.m. ( | suggest removal

I have a question for you Basil...

If this country was to go totally electric only, how in the heck do you purpose to move the freight that semi's, clothing, housewares, plants, farm equipment, construction material as well as construction equipment, logs, lumber, etc etc?
Please do not tell me by rail, rail is ok for some of those items, but you can not move fresh or frozen food items by rail.
Nor can you make deliveries to warehouses, restaurants, grocery stores, malls, etc via rail
At this time, delivery trucks and semi's can not do the job they do if they would have to stop and "plug-in" every 50 to 60 miles.

ELISI — June 22, 2011 at 5:09 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Basil, Basil, Basil...

Shame on you for using wiki..not reliable..even the high schools and colleges do not allow the students use wiki as a source cause anyone can change the info on there.

ELISI — June 22, 2011 at 5:13 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Here Basil.. try this lists companies as well as the countries that make them..

ELISI — June 22, 2011 at 5:17 p.m. ( | suggest removal

"....the Environmentally-friendly way is not always the best way in this day and age.."

I'm not sure how you can make a statement like that if you have any awareness of what impacts we have done, the rate of change, and potential catastrophic effects if we continue on the same course.

We aren't talking about an effect on our economy, we are talking about what we are putting into the world's atmosphere.

US and China are 40 % of the world output, and we are importing huge amounts of China's production. China's share of Anthropogenic CO2 is heavily biased to factory (not driving, heating homes, running appliances) effluent. Just another way we externalize the true cost of how we live here.

mr_basil_seal — June 22, 2011 at 5:23 p.m. ( | suggest removal

ELISI — June 22, 2011 at 5:13 p.m.

"Shame on you for using wiki..not reliable"

Their sources are documented, did you find an error in either the data or a problem with the sources used?

"..even the high schools and colleges do not allow the students use wiki as a source"

Half true - Even at Middle School you wouldn't be using ANY encyclopedia. And by college (and applicable for most HS) any other source needs to be critically analyzed for quality of information sources, accuracy, completeness, bias, currency.

"cause anyone can change the info on there."

True enough. Though most examples tend to look at controversial issues (like the Palin/Revere bruhaha) rather than articles with well documented sources.

So, rather than attack the messenger, if you want to prove your claim "wind turbines are not made here in the USA, most are made in Germany" you'd need to show how you were informed by a reliable source.

Btw, your source says "With wind manufacturing and assembly facilities in Germany, Spain, China, Canada and the United States,"

mr_basil_seal — June 22, 2011 at 5:44 p.m. ( | suggest removal

mr_basil_seal — June 22, 2011 at 3:46 p.m

Isn't the 1 hour quick charge considered the industry standard for public charging stations? Even if it it's not you cannot figure more than 3 hours worth of peak output from the sun in an ideal day.

frobert — June 22, 2011 at 5:46 p.m. ( | suggest removal

ELISI — June 22, 2011 at 5:09 p.m.
"If this country was to go totally electric only"

It think the most optimistic statements you'll find are something like 75% renewable by 2050.

, how in the heck do you purpose to move the freight that semi's, clothing, housewares, plants, farm equipment, construction material as well as construction equipment, logs, lumber, etc etc? Please do not tell me by rail, rail is ok for some of those items, but you can not move fresh or frozen food items by rail. Nor can you make deliveries to warehouses, restaurants, grocery stores, malls, etc via rail At this time, delivery trucks and semi's can not do the job they do if they would have to stop and "plug-in" every 50 to 60 miles.

mr_basil_seal — June 22, 2011 at 6:02 p.m. ( | suggest removal

mr_basil_seal — June 22, 2011 at 6:02 p.m

Companies like Freightliner are working on diesel over electric vehicles right now. They are more efficient and more powerful than diesel alone. They are similar to the locomotives on the rails.

hawkeye — June 22, 2011 at 8:36 p.m. ( | suggest removal

First I asked a question, no supporting information needed.

As for my second sentence, the earth revolves causing the sun to move through the sky and therefore the rays do not shine at 90% all day, as the angle drops the area that the given amount of photons hits increases, thus causing a decrease of power available in a given amount of area. If you want to provide proof that my statements are wrong and the earth is really flat, feel free to do so.

frobert — June 22, 2011 at 8:37 p.m. ( | suggest removal

sorry should have been 90 degrees

frobert — June 22, 2011 at 8:41 p.m. ( | suggest removal

""""We aren't talking about an effect on our economy, we are talking about what we are putting into the world's atmosphere.""""

Basil, Basil....Basil.......

We ARE talking about the economic conditions at every household in these United States of America. Just how in the heck do you think a family of three, with both parents with no significant income or our retired folks on a fixed income could possibly afford an electric car and all its underlying costs? How do you think they could afford to place a solar panel on their roof and how in God's name would you expect them to afford a 55% increase in electricity bill payments which is the forecast percentage of increase over the next ten years? The last 10 years was already a major hit to everyone's pocketbooks. Basil, even a monthly budget arranged by the PUD would be out of reach.

It's common sense, Basil. As long as alternate energy costs are still going through the roof, it's only a concept. In this day and age, our national economic situation has everything to do with the transition, sir. To traverse down the pathway to alternate energy, you still have that footbridge to cross and the footbridge is only half built.

And Basil, do you honestly think third-world countries will follow in our footsteps to lessen the impact on the world's environment? Hell, they can't even afford to take care of themselves, let alone take care of the environment. Sorry Basil, this passive environmentalist cannot fathom the mentality of those who think they can "change the world" all at once. It just ain't happening.

goldenoldie — June 23, 2011 at 6:31 a.m. ( | suggest removal

frobert — June 22, 2011 at 5:46 p.m. (

Odd that you'd make such a claim when there are no designs out there based on that.

So, perhaps some proof?

mr_basil_seal — June 23, 2011 at 6:46 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Alleycat, here's a few of my favorite "names" I've read on the FB side:

Herb Gardner(Rainbow Gathering Article) - Real name????
Irish Nativeson(several articles including Obama Likely to Bring 10K troops home..) -


and the top winner goes to.....

מיכאל חורי (Press Talk)

(Michael Khoury is the translation from Hebrew to English on Google, BTW)

Now I don't mind him presenting his name in Hebrew. That's not the issue. The issue I have with that is the fact that when I posted anything in the Greek Language without an English explanation of what it got deleted.

Alleycat, there's a lot of issues that the C is allowing to leave alone. Of course, they can state they don't control it...that it's Facebook's issues to contend with.

Careful might say something that ticks them off and they'll delete it. (yes, I'm being sarcastic). Isn't it amazing that those of us who write in the basement don't have the option to flag those comments at all! It takes a private email to Libby or Matt to bring attention to the garbage which frequents the FB side.

I'd rather be in the basement. It's getting remodeled every day anyhow.

goldenoldie — June 23, 2011 at 6:52 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Allen, anonymity is lost once you enter social networking sites. Soon, it will be in every facet of the internet. Socialized control of the web.

goldenoldie — June 23, 2011 at 6:55 a.m. ( | suggest removal

"this passive environmentalist cannot fathom the mentality"

Fortunately the world isn't full of 'passive environmentalists; we are in the midst of a seachange in awareness and there will soon (but not soon enough) large scale changes in how what we are doing effects the environment. Realize that even now, the only major opposition to government action (tax on carbon, changes in subsidies) is coming from the ill-informed and uninformed rw sycophants.

A prime example would be the garbage spewed by Jon and the above examples by frobert.

mr_basil_seal — June 23, 2011 at 6:55 a.m. ( | suggest removal

So Basil...

will that be before or after we are all herded into FEMA living quarters headed by none other than our elitist governor, Ms. Gregoire and her partner in crime who were selected for the position?

If the costs continue to skyrocket, there will be protests like we've never seen here in the US. Just why do you think the people are protesting around the Mediterranean? In Greece, they are already paying close to $12 a gallon for gas. Their homes??? They are even taxed for living space on balconies, sir. The situation is getting more and more ridiculous. I have relatives living in Greece who tell us the nightmares of trying to survive in their home land...a country they don't recognize any more, ever since the EU took them under their wings...the same organization who is ready to oust them out of the EU as well. Anybody who had a savings account...are fighting to put food on the table even if they have a job. The cost of food...fughettabout it. You think it's bad here??? Oh, and BTW, they went to solar water heaters a long time ago when the EU began as well as biodiesel and hybrid vehicles. All that wonderful green energy, you know.

Is that what you want for the world? Chaos? If the US experiences even remotely what is being experienced globally...all Hell will break loose and right now...transitioning to "Green(backs) Energy" is not the answer, sir. For those who could afford it...fine. But to force it on everyone will devastate what is left of our unified nation. I'm sorry, sir...but that's the truth as I see it.

goldenoldie — June 23, 2011 at 7:12 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Furthermore Basil, if our world is in full blown chaos (which it's mighty close), do you truly think anybody will care if we're saving the spotted owl or protecting a rain forest? It's a dog-eat-dog world. Environmental awareness is in the eye of the beholder. You OR the government will not be able to convince those who have more issues to care about that we need to save the planet and right now, our global economic climate clouds the issue regarding what we need to do to save the Earth...and even that is a questionable dream. Preserve your own habitat surrounding your home and do what you can to make it a better space. Provide the "clean energy" for those who can still afford to invest but don't cram it down the throats of those who are just trying to survive.

goldenoldie — June 23, 2011 at 7:16 a.m. ( | suggest removal

I will once I leave the forum this morning, Allen. My husband and I are celebrating year number 32 together!

goldenoldie — June 23, 2011 at 7:18 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Allen...regarding your post???


I have concerned myself about our environment since I was 16. My lifestyle has reflected my need to be aware of what's going on and what I could do to make things better in the long run. Pesticides, weed killers and fertilizers are not utilized at my home. I recycle like there's no tomorrow and even make my purchases in larger quantities and refuse to buy box mixes to eliminate the trash thrown into the garbage and recyclables into the blue bin. I do not use plastic bags when I go to the grocery store and only use garbage bags which deteriorate at a faster rate than conventional bags. At my house, only enviro-safe materials are utilized. Am I making a difference to the world? If I would be negligible but I do it because I want to, not because I have to. Is the food I grow healthier...maybe, but there's still the smog in the air and toxins in the rain that falls along with residual toxins in the ground. Will they ever disappear? I'd highly doubt it. We have reduced our vehicle needs to only one between me and my husband and I utilize my walking shoes for short trips instead. Am I doing enough? Who knows? You see Allen, when it comes to the "Green Movement," there's only so much humans can do. What's been done has a permanent effect on our environment. Like you's a money trail when it comes to green power.

goldenoldie — June 23, 2011 at 7:35 a.m. ( | suggest removal

mr_basil_seal — June 23, 2011 at 6:46 a.m.

I did not make a claim I asked a question as my source was questionable ( A Nissan Leaf advertisement) After doing a quick search on public charging stations however is seems that a 2 hour quick charge seems to be more the norm. Calculating 20% loss from the charger my original estimate of 100 square meters still holds true.

Don't get me wrong solar energy holds promise, but we are not there yet. For the past 30 years we have heard claims and seen designs for 750 watts per meter but in the end it is always 150. The theory is sound but the technology hasn't reached it yet. I for one was hoping you could prove me wrong.

frobert — June 23, 2011 at 8:30 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Happy Anniversary, GO! We're on our I know this is a celebration for you both. May you have many more happy years together!


I am fascinated by the news from Seattle (doesn't Rick Steves look happy?):

It has some high-powered backing and a way to produce revenue for the state. Regulate it like alcohol.

Where do I sign?

manthou — June 23, 2011 at 8:43 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Here is New Approach Washington's web page:

manthou — June 23, 2011 at 8:50 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Happy Anniversary GO, today is a great day for you and yours. Congrats.

Hey Cat, funny joke, reminds me of my second.

hawkeye — June 23, 2011 at 9:14 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Congrats Golden on 32yrs! Not many of us can proudly state that many +.

Alleycat, dang funny joke..will have to tell that to a couple sisterinlaws I have..that method would work on them as

ELISI — June 23, 2011 at 10:18 a.m. ( | suggest removal

".. my source was questionable "

Actually, did you cite a source?

Here's a source:

mr_basil_seal — June 23, 2011 at 10:19 a.m. ( | suggest removal

" follow the money. Who stands to make the most money from this green power?"

Conversely, who stands to benefit from not moving toward environmentally sound renewable energy"

Who stands to benefit from continued coal mining, drilling, fracking, building nuc plants?

mr_basil_seal — June 23, 2011 at 10:21 a.m. ( | suggest removal

mr_basil_seal — June 23, 2011 at 10:19 a.m

That's still a lot closer to my estimate of 100 meters per vehicle than you're 50 square foot claim.

frobert — June 23, 2011 at 10:26 a.m. ( | suggest removal

"Am I making a difference to the world? If I would be negligible"

Now multiply that by.....

mr_basil_seal — June 23, 2011 at 10:26 a.m. ( | suggest removal


Look at Gary Johnson, similar views as Paul but much younger.

frobert — June 23, 2011 at 10:36 a.m. ( | suggest removal

frobert — June 23, 2011 at 10:26 a.m.

First, my 'claim' has been substantiated here with links to 3 or more resources who have either actually built or have developed plans based on what is working.

Second, you haven't been able to bring anything to support your claims.

Third, estimate the size of the roofing in the links I provided and figure out how close they are to the 50 sq. feet they are compared to your 1076.391 ft² ("original estimate of 100 square meters")

mr_basil_seal — June 23, 2011 at 11:26 a.m. ( | suggest removal

mr_basil_seal — June 23, 2011 at 11:26 a.m

216 x 40 feet = 8640sq ft. 8640 divided by 13 vehicles = 664 square feet or 61 meters per vehicle. Even at that the wattage would fall at about 50% of what a 20 hour slow charger from the vehicle manufacturers draw. This could be partially attributable to not converting power and drawing from a varied configuration of cells to achieve the desired voltage and amperage. This is a huge step in the right direction, but still a science project.

Someone trying to sell snake oil is not a reliable source. Do you have any links with technical specs? You have not provided any information that indicates that solar cells have broken the barrier of 150 watts per square meter at the equator at noon. We have been hearing promises for 30 years, with no results. Although I do not remember the source I read years ago that 750 is possible, but to the best of my knowledge it hasn't happened.

frobert — June 23, 2011 at 12:16 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Modern republicans are anything but conservative, conservative by definition would demand smaller less intrusive government. Many true conservatives still cling to the republicans because of what the should be. I am conservative but don't want to be associated with what the republicans have become. If we eliminate half the laws we eliminate half the crime.

frobert — June 23, 2011 at 12:24 p.m. ( | suggest removal

"Even at that the wattage would fall at about 50% of what a 20 hour slow charger from the vehicle manufacturers draw"

That makes no sense.

You are claiming that this project is ~1/8th as effective as the GE engineers?

Remember Carl Sagan, "The extraordinary claims are not supported by extraordinary evidence".

So, bring us something extraordinary to support your "middle school science project" claim.

And we're seeming to ignore the main point; ACC and mitigation.

mr_basil_seal — June 23, 2011 at 12:30 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Michele Bachmann --- June 22, 2011 --- Rolling Stone

buckeye71 — June 23, 2011 at 1:50 p.m. ( | suggest removal

mr_basil_seal — June 23, 2011 at 12:30 p.m

Simple math is all it takes to figure it out.

My claim is that it is not as effective as the salesmen claim, no link you have provided has contained any technical data. The simple answer is that my math uses the newer generation of longer range electric vehicles such as the Leaf and their claims are based on the shorter range vehicles such as the Xebra with a 7kwh battery pack. My figures are more realistic, the 40 mile range electric vehicles haven't caught on for a reason.

frobert — June 23, 2011 at 2:09 p.m. ( | suggest removal

alleycat...your politics are completely incoherent. You support the candidate that openly says corporations should run our country, that people should have the right to discriminate based on color, creed, ethnicity or any other damn thing. I could list a hundred more reasons how the Paul philosophy fly's in the face of what you claim to believe. What is up? I tend to take notice when someone touts the Paul ideals. All this self proclaimed rebel image you project to others...and your strongest belief is for us as a nation, is to lie on our stomachs and take the high hard one from Paul's overreaching big government ideals? Corporations currently run our just want to take the government part out of the equation and leave corporate America 100% in charge. You really think these guys are for limited Government? They just want to re-prioritize! Of all the candidates at least Paul is by and large open and fairly honest about his beliefs.

nailingit — June 23, 2011 at 3:35 p.m. ( | suggest removal

...and frobert while you are here...please, once again I'll ask you to...

State what candidates past and present represent "conservatives". Btw, who have you voted for President in the last twenty years?

nailingit — June 23, 2011 at 3:39 p.m. ( | suggest removal

manthou @ 8:43 Right on! Time is well past due and then some to treat this issue any other way. It's good to see people willing to suck up the negatives in order to espouse a mature responsible viewpoint.

nailingit — June 23, 2011 at 3:43 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Yes I know, if we just expand government and curtail our rights the government will make it all better.

frobert — June 23, 2011 at 3:59 p.m. ( | suggest removal mean by expanding government and curtailing rights for example...Government making decisions as to women's reproductive rights. Government enacting laws to criminalize doctors who perform abortions. Government not allowing citizens to band together in order to collectively bargain for their rights, freedoms and quality of life. You mean the Government deciding who can marry and who cannot. You mean the Government spending our tax dollars, giving multi-billion dollar corporations our hard earned money in the way of welfare checks. You must mean big Government that is controlled by the lobbyists for big oil and the medical industry, not giving us viable alternatives so they can control us. You must mean...

nailingit — June 23, 2011 at 5:25 p.m. ( | suggest removal

...and @ 3:39...please indulge me.

alley and fro..don't mean to be rude. This President we have right now is more than disappointing. The past and alternatives make him look like a God. We can do better than this. What do the Republicans offer but a plan of devastation and the competency of a Bachman. This is absurd. I'm sick of this faux "conservatism" that bleeds society dry with it's pre-historic ideals. Ideals that bang people and populaces over the had with a big stick. Then won't bury or heal the victims..they just dangle in the wind collecting weak minds like a fly catching strip tease show on and in the grim rim jobs of humanity.

nailingit — June 23, 2011 at 5:39 p.m. ( | suggest removal

nailingit — June 23, 2011 at 5:25 p.m.

Have I ever advocated any regulation of reproductive rights, or regulation of marriage, in fact it is the liberals that are always disagreeing with me on total deregulation of marriage. As far as collective bargaining goes, the private sector is self limiting, it is not in the unions best interest to put the employer out of business, public sector has no natural limits thus it needs to be limited. You should realize that you can't regulate everything under the sun without taxes. No subsidies or bailouts of private companies should happen, ever. The problem with your party is they believe in regulating marriage except gays, they believe in regulating healthcare except abortion etc. The answer is to stop regulating choices of the individual, I find it hard to believe that the founders intended the commerce clause to suppress personal liberty. I realize this is kind of disjointed, but I am just trying to cover the main points.

frobert — June 23, 2011 at 6:02 p.m. ( | suggest removal


nailingit — June 23, 2011 at 6:51 p.m. ( | suggest removal

I took a look at the C's fb comments. LOL! The biggest story with the fb crowd is a grade B over the hill bass player that appealed to candyrockers! It's no wonder the comments on that side lack appeal. Interesting mindset with Lew and others. Must be the fog of war. Some experiences last a lifetime.

nailingit — June 23, 2011 at 7:16 p.m. ( | suggest removal

~I could tell my parents hated me, my bath toys were a toaster and a radio~ R.D.

nailingit — June 23, 2011 at 7:22 p.m. ( | suggest removal

***Well it's about time someone listened to me!!!***


[AP] - The United States and other nations that depend on oil imports will release and sell 60 million barrels of crude from emergency stocks in an effort to ease the strain of high oil prices on the global economy.

The best way to get the economy going again is to drop the price of gas $1.50. This won't do that but it will help.

hawkeye — June 23, 2011 at 9:07 p.m. ( | suggest removal

anybody else notice something about all the facebook comments to the bridge stories?

they're almost totally pro bridge-lightrail-parkingstructures etc.

every time a story appears about the bridge, only wonderful comments. wonder who's supposed to be taking the temp of the citizens on this topic, and decided to use comments as a benchmark....

DeeLittle — June 23, 2011 at 9:28 p.m. ( | suggest removal


What I read was that Obama is set to sell 30 of the 60 million barrels of oil we have in reserve. That's half of what the USA has for emergencies and for the military. While this isn't the first time a president has sold some of our reserves off, still, it isn't the best time to do it with all that's going on in the middle east.

Will it help the economy? I rather doubt it, will it help those driving to their vacation destination spot, you bet it will.

ELISI — June 23, 2011 at 9:41 p.m. ( | suggest removal

I wish they would have done it a month ago when I had to drive cross country. The truck I had got 10 miles per gallon and at almost 3000 miles, that's a bunch. Even 50 cents lower would have helped.

Any little bit helps.

My truck is diesel and the best price I have found for fuel is the 76 station at Fourth Plane and Andressen. I got ot today for $3.95 per gallon.

hawkeye — June 23, 2011 at 10:52 p.m. ( | suggest removal

~I don't worry about terrorism, I was married for two years~ Sam Kinison

nailingit — June 23, 2011 at 11:42 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Hey Peoples!!! Thanks for the good wishes on our anniversary. It was a nice, nice day.

DeeLittle, I saw that. Could it be that this is just one sampling of the mind control our beloved(?) local newspaper is playing on our community??? (and don't you dare try to deny it, Lou! We weren't born yesterday.)


Lew Waters, if you are reading the forum, the last vote was "Proposition 1" in the 2004 November 2 Election when C-Tran tried to implement funding for the purpose to "Maintain" and "Enhance" public transportation. With the information provided at the time, we ALL knew it was to put money forward for studies of light rail to Vancouver. It was overwhelmingly rejected by the voters. In the September 2005 ballot initiative, the voters approved Proposition 1 funding to maintain existing service.

goldenoldie — June 24, 2011 at 5:55 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Alleycat, I was wondering when we'd start seeing such issues with anonymity and the internet. Before we know it, they will do whatever they can here to permanently silence those of us who wish to remain anonymous via the internet. How better to do it than with a "user-friendly" Social Networking Site. (gag me)

goldenoldie — June 24, 2011 at 5:58 a.m. ( | suggest removal

"My claim is that it is not as effective as the salesmen claim, no link you have provided has contained any technical data."

Odd that you bring nothing to prove they are wrong beyond your 'simple math'.

So we have designed and built systems and you say they don't work.

So, back to extraordinary claims.

And no evidence. Just like Jon and Ray and Bob.

mr_basil_seal — June 24, 2011 at 6:20 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Allen, the Interstate Bridges are on the National Register of Historic Places but that doesn't stop progress. There is a waiver when it comes to the necessity of replacement. I'd like to find out if legally, the design can be changed in the replacement. If I'm not mistaken, they are supposed to maintain the historic preservation of the original design but I could be wrong. According to the FHWA link I've provided below, it states "Rehabilitation that does not impair the historic integrity of the bridge as determined by procedures implementing the national Historic Preservation Act of 1966, as amended (FHWA), is not subject to Section 4(f)."

goldenoldie — June 24, 2011 at 7:28 a.m. ( | suggest removal

What truly pi$$es me off is the fact that the Interstate Bridge replacement project must meet the criteria of the FHWA when it comes to any repairs or replacement in order to begin the process yet no federal tax dollars have been formally established, one of the necessary criteria which must be applied in order to replace the Jolly Green Giant in the first place!

As far as I'm concerned, our respective state governments along with the federal government are violating their very own laws in order to push this debacle forward. I believe any executive order that may have been established does not undermine the existing FHWA law when it comes to historic bridge replacement design. The current I-5 Design might be in violation. I'd surely love to see someone who has the power and the skills to check into this issue a bit further.

Hey David! Mister David Madore!!! Are you reading this??? any chance you want to take a stab at this issue?

Folks, I've sent an email to the CRC and will be sending one to Mayor Tim Leavitt shortly, asking him the very same questions.

goldenoldie — June 24, 2011 at 7:46 a.m. ( | suggest removal

mr_basil_seal — June 24, 2011 at 6:20 a.m

I apologize if 5th grade math confuses you, but it is quite clear that your 50 square foot claim could only work on short range, low speed electric cars, not available or practical in the United States.

frobert — June 24, 2011 at 7:48 a.m. ( | suggest removal

hawkeye — June 23, 2011 at 9:07 p.m.

"The best way to get the economy going again is to drop the price of gas $1.50. This won't do that but it will help."

Anyone with even the most cursory knowledge of energy knows that the world consumes about 87 million barrels a day.
And any first grader past their basic math block can tell you from that, that 60 million barrels of oil won’t even take the world through a single day of oil use. Rather, it will take the world through less than 17 HOURS of oil consumption.
Even in the States, where we consume around 21 million barrels per day, the 30 million that the US is slurping out of the Strategic Reserve to contribute to this energy show would amount to about 30 hours of domestic consumption if all 30 million barrels were coming right here, to our own corner gas stations. Which they’re not.
So what’s the motive behind this particular tragicomedy?

mr_basil_seal — June 24, 2011 at 7:51 a.m. ( | suggest removal

frobert — June 24, 2011 at 7:48 a.m.

Sorry, but that actual trained designers and engineers have actually built them and they are being used seems to trump your claims.

Maybe, rather than attempt insults, you point to some actual, real-life proof we wouldn't have to be limited to your ipse dixit proclamations.

mr_basil_seal — June 24, 2011 at 7:54 a.m. ( | suggest removal

To further explain my argument regarding the "Historic Integrity" of a listed Historic Place, I refer everyone to this definition of "Historic Integrity."


*Historic integrity is the authenticity of a property's historic identity, evidenced by the survival of physical characteristics that existed during the property's prehistoric or historic period.
Historic integrity is the composite of seven qualities:
Historic integrity enables a property to illustrate significant aspects of its past. For this reason, it is an important qualification for National Register listing. Not only must a property resemble its historic appearance, but it must also retain physical materials, design features, and aspects of construction dating from the period when it attained significance. The integrity of archeological resources is generally based on the degree to which remaining evidence can provide important information. All seven qualities do not need to be present for eligibility as long as the overall sense of past time and place is evident.*

courtesy of the following -

goldenoldie — June 24, 2011 at 8:18 a.m. ( | suggest removal

ELISI — June 23, 2011 at 9:41 p.m.

"Will it help the economy? I rather doubt it, will it help those driving to their vacation destination spot, you bet it will."

All key political players will continue to treat Americans as suckers and idiots in order to keep their polarized narratives going, making energy policy and action on it a proxy fight which, like all political proxy fights today, avoids real truths and clarifies nothing.
Sadly, in spite of any potentially alienating vibes to the energy industry that Obama may have sparked with this move, he’s a president who’s proven himself every bit as beholden to Big Oil, Big Coal and Big Nuclear as any president before him.
He’s utterly failed to use the bully pulpit to advance a meaningful agenda on energy, in spite of his claims to support clean energy alternatives.
His backing of rail has been paltry, even feckless.
He can’t even put up promised solar panels on the White House.
And just as President Bush urged Americans go go shopping after 9/11, in today’s mounting energy crisis Obama has urged no sacrifices, adjustments, or conservation, even as energy supply weakens and costs rise overall.
The Right is no better with its top-down class war against middle- and working-class Americans, heisting our tax payments and then our collective wealth to Wall Street crooks and corporate coffers via legislative ju jitsu. On energy, they keep hyping deepwater oil as if last year’s Gulf disaster was just a bad day at the office. They still want us to buy into tar sands, oil shale and, of course, nuclear for all eternity, Fukushima — and future generations — be damned. Their marching orders come straight from the big money, to which they’ve become slavish devotees.

Somewhat interesting that the release has no mention on the C...

mr_basil_seal — June 24, 2011 at 8:20 a.m. ( | suggest removal

mr_basil_seal — June 24, 2011 at 7:54 a.m

First, the only built and operating example you came up with was 664 square feet per vehicle. Yes that is better than my original estimate, but a far cry from 50.

Second, the insults started when you compared me to ray and bob.

frobert — June 24, 2011 at 8:28 a.m. ( | suggest removal

"5th grade math confuses you"

mr_basil_seal — June 24, 2011 at 8:46 a.m. ( | suggest removal

mr_basil_seal — June 24, 2011 at 8:46 a.m

I said that is when they started, not that I didn't participate.

frobert — June 24, 2011 at 8:58 a.m. ( | suggest removal

frobert — June 24, 2011 at 8:28 a.m.

"First, the only built and operating example you came up with..."

Here's a few more:

the point was that you claimed solar EV recharging was a "middle school science project" and implied it wasn't feasible.

And then couldn't come up with a single source to support your contentions.

That there are working Solar EV charging stations in the US (when you claim " not available or practical in the United States.") around the world doesn't sway your opinion - an unwillingness to believe in evidence - does rather point towards certain conclusions.

mr_basil_seal — June 24, 2011 at 9:11 a.m. ( | suggest removal

To Basil and Frobert:

It's no offense intended to either one of you but you know you both remind me of two Bighorn Sheep butting horns together!!! I guess it could be worse. The next video reminds me of TCB on FB:

goldenoldie — June 24, 2011 at 9:30 a.m. ( | suggest removal

mr_basil_seal — June 24, 2011 at 8:20 a.m

GASP, Basil...are you saying that you are not happy with Obama?
THE very person you voted for? THE one that promised "Hope and Change"?

Wowsers, all that preaching before and after election that he was America's last great hope..not satisfied with Obama now? Oh GASP what a bummer.

ELISI — June 24, 2011 at 9:43 a.m. ( | suggest removal


LMAO!!!!!!! perfecto!!

ELISI — June 24, 2011 at 9:44 a.m. ( | suggest removal

You liked it, huh! Well, I'm outta here! Exit...stage Right!!!

Keep smilin'.

goldenoldie — June 24, 2011 at 9:52 a.m. ( | suggest removal


No offense taken, a little humor is always welcome.

frobert — June 24, 2011 at 10:16 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Allen — June 24, 2011 at 12:23 p.m

For the hundredth time..I didn't vote for either one cause I felt neither could do the job. Well, IMO I was right on the "one" the other, couldn't/wouldn't/won't/never will...

ELISI — June 24, 2011 at 1:08 p.m. ( | suggest removal

mr_basil_seal — June 24, 2011 at 9:11 a.m

Your latest group of examples, or at least the ones in the State, are about 80 square meters per vehicle. Your sources continue to prove my point.

What I said was that the vehicles that the 54 square foot charging station is designed to charge are not available here.

I may have overestimated by 20-30% the area needed to charge a vehicle, but past that you have not disproved any of my statements.

Solar EV charging here, is just there to make people feel like something is getting done. In a city like Phoenix, with 211 sunny days, compared to our 68, it might be practical.

frobert — June 24, 2011 at 1:56 p.m. ( | suggest removal

I said I wouldn't post to the "C" till they got rid of the FB requirement for posting, But I have been lurking this forum and it is soooo much more robust than the comment section on the articles and "letters tot he editor". Sometime the comments are a jumbled mess and at times it doesn't give you the option to chronologically list them... So "C", how's that whole Facebook Thing working out for you??

Frobert and Basil...I'll go back to what I said before:


If you want to go green, batteries are not the way to go.

The talk of solar cells is interesting but maybe local officials and home builders should take a queue from this discussion. If they want people to buy a new home build/design them with passive and active solar features, install a 220v outlet(s) in the garages. Build something that looks like it was for the 21st century. (of course they'll need to supply extension cords, because if it's like my neighborhood the $25,000 auto is in the driveway and the useless old clothes and broken furniture is stacked in the garage.)

YEP, our city officials have decided that they will do anything to get light rail to Vancouver, including making DTWN a "Park and Ride" lot....**AND for $120mil there is still no model of the new bridge !!** The WW links are great. Both sides of the river are trying to make sense of this CRC fiasco and no matter how many twists and turns nobody can made any headway.

**GEE**, 232 comments and it's only 41/2 days old. (See FB question above)

pdxtech91 — June 24, 2011 at 2:13 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Just a comment about one the news items above:

Vancouver Plaza courts new tenants

You mention that, maybe, WALMART is a potential tenant.
Did anyone bother to ask anyone at **TARGET** for a comment on this?
Do you really, REALLY, believe TARGET will stay at this location if WALMART moves in?

pdxtech91 — June 24, 2011 at 2:24 p.m. ( | suggest removal

"In a city like Phoenix, with 211 sunny days, compared to our 68, it might be practical."

So, why do we and Seattle have them?

Again, the main point is that we are beyond 'middle school science projects".

And there is the unaddressed issue of why we are building these. That pesky ACC.

mr_basil_seal — June 24, 2011 at 5:03 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Frobert and Basil...I'll go back to what I said before:


Show us, show us, show us!

mr_basil_seal — June 24, 2011 at 5:05 p.m. ( | suggest removal

A little Hydro can last generations!

nailingit — June 24, 2011 at 8 p.m. ( | suggest removal

I would like to congratulate and applaud the legislature of New York for their support of the 14th amendment in legalizing the same sex marriage act, becoming the sixth state, plus the District of Columbia to legalize what should be a given within the US Constitution.

dfsadfh — June 24, 2011 at 8:38 p.m. ( | suggest removal

nailingit — June 24, 2011 at 8 p.m-

the key in energy is diversity, ethanol, hydro, tidal, wind, bio-diesel, keep all options open

frobert — June 24, 2011 at 9:23 p.m. ( | suggest removal

dfsadfh — June 24, 2011 at 8:38 p.m

We need to end all government involvement in marriage.

frobert — June 24, 2011 at 9:25 p.m. ( | suggest removal


nailingit — June 24, 2011 at 9:30 p.m. ( | suggest removal

nailingit — June 24, 2011 at 9:30 p.m.


frobert — June 24, 2011 at 9:32 p.m. ( | suggest removal


The vehicles are here:

The infrastructure is starting to be built:

one more link:

Also regarding Solar...

The 68 days you mention..may have been an obstacle at one time, especially if we were talking about passive solar cells. With Photovoltaic Cells it does not need direct sunlight to operate. And with thin film cells now on the market weight is no longer a problem. One could cover whole roofs with cells. The main problem is the combining of "on grid" electrics with the "off grid electrics.

But I do contractors that install both types of solar in this area. They are slow right now along with every other contractor in this economy but they are still in business.

And I still think that any new home built now should have systems that help the owner to get off the grid.


A little Hydro can last generations! If you are relating that to your avatar. YEAH...that would be TOO MUCH. ;-0

pdxtech91 — June 25, 2011 at 11 a.m. ( | suggest removal

frobert -- June 24, 2011 at 9:25 p.m

Okay, so all anyone would need to get married is a broomstick to jump over or a couple of crystal goblets to smash on the hearth and they'd be married. Sounds like a plan, to bad no one would be able to get any of the benefits that the government currently offers for married folk.

dfsadfh — June 25, 2011 at 2:18 p.m. ( | suggest removal

dfsadfh — June 25, 2011 at 2:18 p.m


frobert — June 25, 2011 at 2:37 p.m. ( | suggest removal

frobert — June 25, 2011 at 2:37 p.m.

Let's see, in 1997 the GAO listed 1049 benefits and protections available to heterosexual married couples. According to Lambda Legal Defense, more than 1,400 legal rights are conferred upon heterosexual married couples in the United States. Here's a small sample of the list:

dfsadfh — June 25, 2011 at 3:59 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Did you know that if you sell your house after 2012 you will pay a 3.8%
sales tax on it?
That's $3,800 on a $100,000 home etc.
When did this happen? It's in the health care bill. Just thought you should
SALES TAX TO GO INTO EFFECT 2013 (Part of HC Bill) Why 2013? Could it be to
come to light AFTER the 2012 elections?
So, this is "change you can believe in"?
Under the new health care bill - did you know that all real estate
transactions will be subject to a 3.8% Sales Tax? The bulk of these new
taxes don't kick in until 2013 If you sell your $400,000 home, there will be
a $15,200 tax. This bill is set to screw the retiring generation who often
downsize their homes. Does this stuff make your November and 2012 vote more
Oh, you weren't aware this was in the obamacare bill? Guess what, you aren't
alone. There are more than a few members of Congress that aren't aware of it
either . click on this to verify ......

DeeLittle — June 25, 2011 at 5:34 p.m. ( | suggest removal

dfsadfh — June 25, 2011 at 3:59 p.m

Although I disagree about the government giving us any benefits, I understand the point you are trying to make. My point is that the restrictions to the laws you mention would not exist if government involvement in marriage didn't exist.

Our government has no business condemning, approving, encouraging or licensing any marriage. It takes quite a stretch to reconcile marriage regulation with the first amendment.

Why is it my concern if my neighbor has two wives? or husbands?
Why is it my concern if someone marries their cousin?
Why is it my concern if two men or woman get married?

We need to curtail our over controlling government.

frobert — June 25, 2011 at 5:45 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Dee Little 5:34 June 25, 2011

This was from a CHAIN EMAIL from 2010.

Under the new health care law, "all real estate transactions will be subject to a 3.8% Sales Tax"
Chain e-mail, Monday, August 2nd, 2010.

Ruling: Pants on Fire!


NOW HERE'S AN ACCURATE EXPLANATION OF THE ACTUAL GERM OF ACCURATE TRUTH from which the above gross, fraudulent distortion was generated. It's from a source which is light-years apart from being in the progressive camp, the National Association of Realtors

In a nutshell, here's what the tax actually involves:

It's a medicare "surtax" of 3.8% on "unearned net investment income", which can potentially, though only rarely in practice, include sales of primary residences. It's NOT a sales tax at all, but very close in nature to a capital gains tax surcharge on certain high-income individuals.
The lifetime real estate exclusion of 500k is preserved unaffected by this surtax. Thus, it can only potentially apply to sales of a primary residence for over 500k, and further all deductions, exclusions, expenses, etc which would be deductable under existing income tax principles are unaffected and preserved under the new law.
The tax ONLY applies to the LESSER of: a) gain on sales amounts in excess of the 500k exclusion (and after other deductions, etc); or b) adjusted gross income for current tax year of over 200k for single individuals, or 250k for married individuals.
So, the tax ONLY applies to a fairly small handful of relatively high-income people, whereas the GOP propaganda fraudulently makes it sound as if it would apply to ordinary middle-class people, and most likely at one of their most economically vulnerable moments, post-retirement. The shameless lies the GOP is willing to spin are truly without
any bounds.

I know - those pesky facts get in the way!

buckeye71 — June 25, 2011 at 6:42 p.m. ( | suggest removal

frobert — June 25, 2011 at 5:45 p.m.

Okay, somewhere in here you have totally lost me. Over all I agree with you, what business is it of ours if two folks want to do the matrimony thing. Actually all marriages are government sponsored, no one can marry without the consent of the government. Priests, ministers. pastors, whatever can not marry anyone unless they are licensed by the state to do so, but some religions seem to think that they can control marriage by blackmail (or maybe it's extortion, I always get these two mixed up). What exactly is your point, frankly, I'm not getting it, what ever it is.

dfsadfh — June 25, 2011 at 8:20 p.m. ( | suggest removal

buckeye71 — June 25, 2011 at 6:42 p.m

Here is the law as it was written, it seems to be somewhere between what the dems and reps are saying. The GOP doesn't have an exclusive on spin.

Section 1402. Unearned Income Medicare Contribution
Medicare contributions are modified to include net investment income by imposing a 3.8 percent tax on
interest, dividends, annuities, royalties, rents, gross income from a trade or business involving passive
activities, and net gain from the disposition of property above a threshold amount. The threshold amount
is $200,000 for an individual and $250,000 for a married couples filing jointly. This is effective for
taxable years beginning after December 31, 2012.

frobert — June 25, 2011 at 8:20 p.m. ( | suggest removal

dfsadfh — June 25, 2011 at 8:20 p.m

My point is simple, end government involvement in marriage.

frobert — June 25, 2011 at 8:32 p.m. ( | suggest removal

buckeye71...thanks for bringing clarity to the issue. These kind of distortions are being preached from pulpits and pundits and will gain a lot of traction closer to election time.

nailingit — June 25, 2011 at 11:03 p.m. ( | suggest removal

frobert- Should the government be involved with setting age limits for marriage? Should the government impose penalties for incest? Should the government ever be able to institute a draft in case of an attack on our nation? Should the government be involved with setting ANY KIND of regulations with regards to the banking industry? Do you believe private business owners should have the right to disallow anyone they choose from employment based on color of skin, looks, ethnicity, being a Mariners you believe that a Muslim/Middle Eastern based electronics corporation should have the right to hire only Muslum/Middle Eastern centered people for this corp? Do you believe that Rand Paul is an incompetent sissy that sucks doorknobs in his sleep? Do you believe Ron Paul is a girl? Do you believe women should have the legal right to abort their child?

nailingit — June 25, 2011 at 11:18 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Thanks. Hate to see the forums deteriorate to right wing chain emails. Batted down two so far. Low information voters are going to believe the chain emails even when shown the facts but there might be a few that search out the truth and become a wee bit more enlightened. Google is their friend.

Hope including National Association of Realtors as a source provided some credibility.


NOW HERE'S AN ACCURATE EXPLANATION OF THE ACTUAL GERM OF ACCURATE TRUTH from which the above gross, fraudulent distortion was generated. It's from a source which is light-years apart from being in the progressive camp, the National Association of Realtors ...


buckeye71 — June 25, 2011 at 11:41 p.m. ( | suggest removal

I just received an e-mail that confirms Obama was born on planet Vulcan and not on Earth.

seamuscallan — June 26, 2011 at 6:17 a.m. ( | suggest removal

John Laird, if you are monitoring the forums, I just wanted to say I was quite entertained by your editorial this morning. I've got to laugh about your comment on the parking garages. Bear in mind, I do not have a problem with parking garages situated directly across from Clark College. How better to put on a false persona that the garages would be filled to capacity for light rail when we all know the majority, if not 99.9% of the spaces would be taken by students!

BTW John, any chance you can explain exactly how the parking garages will be positioned across from Clark without causing Marshall Center to close and be leveled? According to the picture depicted in the article "CRC parking garages to cost up to $176 Million," that will just about eliminate Marshall Center and McLoughlin Blvd west of Fort Vancouver Way. And how will that affect the track at Hudson's Bay High School? Maybe a smaller, more reasonable parking garage at the old library would be a better fit. I believe they should eave the green space and Marshall Center alone!

goldenoldie — June 26, 2011 at 7:34 a.m. ( | suggest removal

And yes John Laird, we do have the best position between two big cities and we would like to keep it that way. We don't want to become North, North Portland. Now, as far as Larry Patella's attempts to put the vote on the ballot...his attempts are futile because of the fact that he limited his work to only people who live within the city limits. Now if he had attempted the entire county of Clark...we'd be seeing the vote sooner than later, my dear sir...and THAT makes the promoters of light rail to our quaint little city nestled between two larger PNW cities quite antsy! A nail biter for sure!

goldenoldie — June 26, 2011 at 7:38 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Hey Lou Brancaccio, I thought I'd put my two-cents' worth in about Facebook. First of all, I am not totally against FB like it might have seemed in the past although personal information issues are still the number one reason why I choose not to use FB. Secondly, I recognize the fact that it hasn't really taken off like I thought it would have and I noticed you have received comments from beyond the community on a regular basis. Is that a good thing for a company who boasts about "Serving Clark County?" Maybe a clarification on your part about serving our county would be good. Are you serving the people or the government? Seems to be more political involvement through FB. Just curious. Why is that? Are they apprehensive about talking to those of us who choose to utilize a pen name? I have no problem sharing my comments via private message with my real name embedded in the message and I'm sure others don't have that problem either.

Anyhow, I do see occasional spurts on certain articles which is refreshing but never forget the folks in the basement who aren't afraid to post what they believe in as that makes for some gingered discussions. Honestly though Lou...when a write describing resemblance of muppets to local government officials gets higher rates than some of the well-written articles by the talented ones at the Columbian...aren't you asking yourself "Why is that?"

Lou, I feel the real flow of discussion remains in the forum as each post is in chronological order, much easier to follow. It's too bad the FB side of things couldn't be marked in such a manner. My two-cents' worth of opinion is that I believe chronological order of comments would be worth the time to improve on Facebook.

goldenoldie — June 26, 2011 at 7:50 a.m. ( | suggest removal


...if we all were born with one hand...would the expression to include plurality "at arms length" be acceptable? When I was a child, traveling around on a ten speed meant a rack and a half of cross T living...why are small housing units that are joined together called apartments? If grass wasn't green, what would the other side look like...a sizable solar flare could destroy every living thing on the planet...if animals weren't available as pets, would humans evolve to the point of self propagating?

nailingit — June 26, 2011 at 10:16 a.m. ( | suggest removal

frobert — June 25, 2011 at 8:32 p.m.

Okay, if we eliminate all marriages then at least the playing field will be level for all.

dfsadfh — June 26, 2011 at 11:06 a.m. ( | suggest removal

goldenoldie — June 26, 2011 at 7:34 a.m.

I love your post.

I'm still not opposed to light rail as long as it can support itself AND the parking buildings are built in Hazel Dell AND Salmon Creek. It's STILL stupid to route the rail to Clark College and build there. If they want a stop there, that would be great and maybe build ONE building there but not what is currently planned.

hawkeye — June 26, 2011 at 11:23 a.m. ( | suggest removal

buckeye71 — June 25, 2011 at 6:42 p.m.

You know what? That's the way I read it too.

hawkeye — June 26, 2011 at 11:26 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Wishing for light rail to be entirely self-sufficient is just that-a wish. Any service provided by any governmental entity using taxpayer money is a losing proposition from a business point of view. If there was money to be made, someone would give it a shot. If anything has the word "public" in it, it's a taxpayer's moneybucket, always has been and always will be.

mrd — June 26, 2011 at 1:47 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Interesting Washington State News article I've come across here. It was written by an Oregon Newspaper. Lou....anybody home at the C today???

"""Hundreds of anarchists create overnight havoc in Seattle"""

goldenoldie — June 26, 2011 at 3:21 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Oops...that's Oregon News Station. My bad.

goldenoldie — June 26, 2011 at 3:23 p.m. ( | suggest removal

I was checking out the news and was surprised how few comments are posted. Has larimer been banned again? Maybe it's this great weather we've been having. Michele Bachman seems to be taking herself seriously, but no one else is to include the stuffed shirts at faux news. Check out fox news sunday today. It's a hoot!

nailingit — June 26, 2011 at 4:48 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Nailingit, I think you're right about ol' Bobbo. I checked Lou's older Press Talk articles and did not see his name anywhere. Hmm...must've been something he said.

goldenoldie — June 27, 2011 at 6:15 p.m. ( | suggest removal

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