Open Forum, Oct. 10-16

Published:

 

Most read stories on Columbian.com last week:

No. 1) Fourth Plain standoff ends peacefully

No. 2) 2 cat shooters sentenced to more than a year

No. 3) Occupy Portland crowd on the march

No. 4) Name released in crash near Oregon Coast

No. 5) Vancouver school board candidate queried on racy photos

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452 comments

Comments

Why do politicians tend to say "God Bless America" at the end of their speeches?
These are invariably "Christian" politicians. I am not sure if I have my theology correct, but is it proper for anyone, even a big, powerful rich American, to tell God what to do? Wouldn't it be more appropriate to say, "God, please bless or continue to bless America? And the crowds love it and eat it up, of course.
I really believe we are a nation of idiots and there are not enough people apologizing for our bad behavior to put off serious repercussions for much longer.

mangoboy — October 10, 2011 at 6:41 a.m. ( | suggest removal


Allen, it concerns me when peaceful protests can turn ugly in an instant when the governing officials start to complain.

Remember Kent State???

goldenoldie — October 10, 2011 at 7:15 a.m. ( | suggest removal


There's an article that showed up on The Columbian's website sometime yesterday - Washington State wants to hear from us on transportation needs and funding. This looks like a really short window for a survey - they plan on tabulating results in mid-October. And the survey appears heavily weighted toward "We're going to build it, but how do you want to pay for it?"

At any rate, if interested the link is in the following article:

http://www.columbian.com/news/2011/oc...

roger — October 10, 2011 at 7:19 a.m. ( | suggest removal


Allen, I can't speak for Jaime...but I too am against protesting - to an extent. Not because of the obvious reasons. I believe it is important for EVERYONE to stand up for what they believe in and I'd be the first one to say I support what the people are doing IF I knew it would solve the issues (and I know, my view contradicts itself), but the mere fact is...

we shouldn't HAVE to protest against our government's unfair taxation and the deplorable economic situation that exists... that our government is bailing out the businesses plagued with financial issues...businesses supported by the top 1% and bailing their poor financial decisions with OUR tax dollars, then attacking us with yet more taxes, fees and whatever else they want to call it. Unfortunately, until WE receive the type of government we expect our elected ones to represent, these peaceful protests will continue and like you say...all it takes is one plant to cause chaos and that seems to be the way things have been going globally for how many years now??? I have a sinking feeling we could see something very similar to Kent State in the very near future...most likely at Wall Street.

Also Allen, it is my opinion that the supposed "tampering" with the railroad tracks from Vancouver to Chehalis was NOT the work of the fine, hardworking members of our ILWU unions...but someone who has gone out and done what they did to make the ILWU look bad...*IF* in fact there was every any tampering to begin with. Notice how we weren't informed as to what tampering had occurred???

Chaos, my friend...chaos. It's all part of the game, sad to say.

goldenoldie — October 10, 2011 at 7:47 a.m. ( | suggest removal


I was living in the D.C. area in the mid '60s when the civil rights and anti-war movements were gearing up. Believe me - the local media there was opposed to the protests. There was a civil rights gathering in '67 at the Reflecting Pool area - Resurrection City - shortly after King was murdered and the ensuing riots. The American Nazi Party was handing out Back to Africa "tickets." This kind of stuff was ignored by reporters, and the news focused on how trashy the area was made and the impact on tourism. Same year was the anti-war march on the Pentagon. The news did everything possible to downplay or ridicule that event. I moved to middle PA in '68, and don't recall the mainstream news turning until a bit later - like when news of My Lai came out in '69. And Kent State, as Goldie mentions, was a final straw.

roger — October 10, 2011 at 7:50 a.m. ( | suggest removal


It is a long post, but really walks through how we got here:

**Could this time have been different?
Posted by Ezra Klein**

These crises have a sort of immune system. It is never possible for the political system to do enough to stop them at the outset, as it is never quite clear how bad they are. Even if it were, the system is ill-equipped to take action at that scale. The actors comfort themselves with the thought that if they need to do more, they can do it later. And, for now, the fact that this is the largest rescue package anyone has ever seen has to be worth something.

Perversely, the very size of the package is part of its problem. With something extraordinary that is nevertheless not enough, the economy deteriorates, and the government sees its solutions discredited and its political standing weakened by the worsening economic storm. That keeps it from doing more.

Meanwhile, the opposition’s capacity to do more is arguably even more limited, as it has turned against whatever policies were tried in the first place. Add in the almost inevitable run-up in government debt, which imposes constraints in the eyes of the voters and, in some cases, in the eyes of the markets, and an economy that started by not doing enough is never able to get in front of the crisis.

These sorts of economic crises are, in other words, inherently politically destabilizing, and that makes a sufficient response, at least in a democracy, nearly impossible.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/ezra-klein/post/could-this-time-have-been-different/2011/08/25/gIQAiJo0VL_blog.html

mr_basil_seal — October 10, 2011 at 7:52 a.m. ( | suggest removal


Allen,

My daughter sent me these links..thought you might be interested..

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/democrats-seek-occupy-wall-street-movement/story?id=14701337

Funny, if you look on these, some of the same names on both lists pop up.

Top contributors to Obama

http://www.opensecrets.org/pres08/contrib.php?cid=N00009638

Top contributors to McCain

http://www.opensecrets.org/pres08/contrib.php?cid=N00006424

ELISI — October 10, 2011 at 7:55 a.m. ( | suggest removal


Peaceful protests are, sadly, here today gone tomorrow. Read yesterday's Columbian article on the bio-whatever plant they're arguing over in downtown Vancouver. The opposed crowd had an "expert" organizer in from Seattle to speak on how to stop it. His message was practice progressively increasing forms of civil disobedience - don't depend on the governments involved to act in your best interests.

roger — October 10, 2011 at 7:56 a.m. ( | suggest removal


Allen — October 10, 2011 at 6:58 a.m.

goldenoldie — October 10, 2011 at 7:15 a.m.

Allen — October 10, 2011 at 7:30 a.m.

**Conservative journalist says he infiltrated, escalated D.C. museum protest**
Posted by Suzy Khimm

A conservative journalist has admitted to infiltrating the group of protesters who clashed with security at the Smithsonian’s National Air and Space Museum on Saturday — and he openly claims to have helped instigate the events that prompted the museum to close.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/ezra-klein/post/conservative-journalist-says-he-infiltrated-escalated-dc-museum-protest/2011/10/09/gIQAIKxCYL_blog.html

AmSpec has pulled the article, but early in the comments are screen captures of it, and even then showing how AmSpec started 'editing'.....

mr_basil_seal — October 10, 2011 at 7:58 a.m. ( | suggest removal


Also Allen,

With checking through the different news channels over the weekend, newspapers from different states, talking with or emailing family and friends across the USA,..these protesters are from every walk of life, every age group, from each political party, and even those who don't vote.

They are American people simply fed up with the way our government is running this country.
IMO they aren't "running" this country, they are "ruining" this country.

So don't let the media fill your head with a bunch of garbage, it neither party pushing or backing this, it's just people fed up.

ELISI — October 10, 2011 at 8:09 a.m. ( | suggest removal


Why doesn't that surprise me, Basil. There will be those who infiltrate the opposition no matter who they represent.

goldenoldie — October 10, 2011 at 8:10 a.m. ( | suggest removal


The first thing to do is re-install the Glass–Steagall Act.

hawkeye — October 10, 2011 at 8:13 a.m. ( | suggest removal


One of the many Faces of Occupy Wall Street:

http://tinyurl.com/3jdn8ps

goldenoldie — October 10, 2011 at 8:23 a.m. ( | suggest removal


mangoboy — October 10, 2011 at 6:41 a.m

The correct way is to say..."May God Bless America"

ELISI — October 10, 2011 at 8:24 a.m. ( | suggest removal


...and that was in Portland.

With what examples have been shown to date, it is grandmothers, mothers, children, husbands, fathers, grandfathers, sons and daughters...all nationalities, all walks of life. Those who do have jobs come to stand with those who do not. Those who do have homes stand with those who do not. Those who have health insurance stand with those who do not. It is a United Effort. Anybody who tries to say it's a bunch of drugged hippies or people who are lazy...

I feel sorry for their ignorance.

goldenoldie — October 10, 2011 at 8:26 a.m. ( | suggest removal


ELISI and Mango, maybe it's the politicians who believe they can boss God around when they chant "God Bless Uhmerika." (s)

goldenoldie — October 10, 2011 at 8:28 a.m. ( | suggest removal



Allen — October 10, 2011 at 8:21 a.m

There is not a one IMO that is running that can even come close to doing the job of being president.

ELISI — October 10, 2011 at 8:30 a.m. ( | suggest removal


Golden, lol

Most likely ones who say that are just what I call pew warmers for the public...they haven't a clue.

One doesn't boss God around, you ask, then hope... and we sure need a lot of hope these days.

ELISI — October 10, 2011 at 8:33 a.m. ( | suggest removal


mr_basil_seal @ 7:58...On the surface it looks as if the assistant editor of the American Spectator, Patrick Howley, committed an act that might warrant prosecution (in addition to being complicit in writing the right wing garbage the Spectator spews out). I fear the conservative right will be inspired by events like this, that gave a measure of "success" to their "keeping the status Quo" movement. I remember republican Governor Scott Walker (A US Governor none the less!!!!!) stating he thought of inciting violence via republican operatives.

nailingit — October 10, 2011 at 8:42 a.m. ( | suggest removal


mr_basil_seal — October 10, 2011 at 8:28 a.m.

The video link you posted just about took out my computer. Something McAfee and Firefox definitely didn't like. I was able to watch about a minute of it is all.

goldenoldie — October 10, 2011 at 8:43 a.m. ( | suggest removal


The mainstream media need to pick up this story and run with it. Get Walker back in the news. If anyone exemplifies the tactics, motivations and deeds of today's GOP it's Walker.

nailingit — October 10, 2011 at 8:46 a.m. ( | suggest removal


Allen — October 10, 2011 at 8:30 a.m.

Sorry about the coffee launch. Like ELISI says at 8:30 am...there's nobody I'd vote for at this time. I think they all believe they are invincible and can control anybody...even God.

..

ELISI...I like that comment of yours...Pew Warmers for the Public. Heck, if we could bottle up all that hot air they're spewing out of their mouths every day in order to heat our homes...we'd never have to worry about possible energy crises globally!!!

goldenoldie — October 10, 2011 at 8:48 a.m. ( | suggest removal


pssst. Nailingit. This inciting of violence is coming from all directions in the political spectrum, not just who you are trying to lay the blame on. Let's keep political party bashing out of the game today. It doesn't help your cause.

goldenoldie — October 10, 2011 at 8:52 a.m. ( | suggest removal


Golden, LOL You got that right!

Maybe you and I can put heads together and come up with a way to bottle it..maybe even use it to fuel our autos with some.

ELISI — October 10, 2011 at 8:57 a.m. ( | suggest removal


The 99%:

http://wearethe99percent.tumblr.com/

goldenoldie — October 10, 2011 at 8:57 a.m. ( | suggest removal


Sometimes we focus on the events of the day too much when electing leaders. Agree with them or not, here is a SHORT list of Obama' accomplishments.

No. 4: Extend child tax credits and marriage-penalty fixes
No. 16: Increase minority access to capital
No. 33: Establish a credit card bill of rights
No. 36: Expand loan programs for small businesses
No. 37: Extend the Bush tax cuts for lower incomes
No. 38: Extend the Bush tax cuts for those making less than $250,000 (couples) or $200,000 (single)
No. 48: Close the “doughnut hole” in Medicare prescription drug plan
No. 51: Require insurance companies to cover pre-existing conditions
No. 53: Give tax credits to those who need help to pay health premiums
No. 55: Require large employers to contribute to a national health plan
No. 56: Require children to have health insurance coverage
No. 57: Expand eligibility for Medicaid
No. 58: Expand eligibility for State Children’s Health Insurance Fund (SCHIP)
No. 63: Require health plans to disclose how much of the premium goes to patient care
No. 65: Establish an independent health institute to provide accurate and objective information
No. 69: In non-competitive markets, force insurers to pay out a reasonable share of their premiums for patient care
No. 70: Eliminate the higher subsidies to Medicare Advantage plans
No. 93: Reinstate executive order to hire an additional 100,000 federal employees with disabilities within five years.
No. 105: Increase the Veterans Administration budget to recruit and retain more mental health
No. 109: Fully fund the Veterans Administration
No. 113: Expand the Veterans Administration’s number of “centers of excellence” in specialty care
No. 121: Fully fund the Violence Against Women Act
No. 125: Direct military leaders to end war in Iraq
No. 126: Begin removing combat brigades from Iraq
No. 132: No permanent bases in Iraq
No. 161: End the abuse of supplemental budgets for war
No. 167: Make U.S. military aid to Pakistan conditional on anti-terror efforts
No. 172: Open “America Houses” in Islamic cities around the globe
No. 182: Allocate Homeland Security funding according to risk
No. 195: Seek verifiable reductions in nuclear stockpiles
No. 196: Extend monitoring and verification provisions of the START I Treaty
No. 197: Stand down nuclear forces to be reduced under the Moscow Treaty

To be continued...

nailingit — October 10, 2011 at 8:59 a.m. ( | suggest removal


No. 215: Create a rapid response fund for emerging democracies
No. 222: Grant Americans unrestricted rights to visit family and send money to Cuba
No. 225: Establish an Energy Partnership for the Americas
No. 229: Expand the Nurse-Family Partnership to all low-income, first-time mothers
No. 239: Release presidential records
No. 241: Require new hires to sign a form affirming their hiring was not due to political affiliation or contributions.
No. 244: Provide affordable, high-quality child care
No. 247: Recruit math and science degree graduates to the teaching profession
No. 259: Reduce subsidies to private student lenders and protect student borrowers
No. 269: Increase funding for national parks and forests
No. 275: Expand Pell grants for low-income students
No. 290: Push for enactment of Matthew Shepard Act, which expands hate crime law to include sexual orientation and other factors
No. 293: Repeal “Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell” policy
No. 315: Establish ‘Promise Neighborhoods’ for areas of concentrated poverty
No. 359: Rebuild schools in New Orleans
No. 371: Fund a major expansion of AmeriCorps
No. 411: Work to overturn Ledbetter vs. Goodyear
No. 422: Create new financial regulations
No. 427: Ban lobbyist gifts to executive employees
No. 433: Sign a “universal” health care bill
No. 435: Create new criminal penalties for mortgage fraud
No. 449: Raise fuel economy standards
No. 458: Invest in all types of alternative energy
No. 483: Invest in public transportation
No. 495: Double federal spending for research on clean fuels
No. 500: Increase funding for the Environmental Protection Agency
No. 507: Extend unemployment insurance benefits and temporarily suspend taxes on these benefits
No. 513: Reverse restrictions on stem cell research
Again, please keep in mind that this is only a fraction of the promises he has kept. I don’t think there is another president in recent history who could present such a list.

nailingit — October 10, 2011 at 9:01 a.m. ( | suggest removal


And here's the source if anyone wants further reading...

http://planetpov.com/2011/02/13/a-short-list-of-pres-obamas-accomplishments/

nailingit — October 10, 2011 at 9:03 a.m. ( | suggest removal


I received a newsletter from her and she provided a general statement saying "several people." I guess even a handful is better than none, Allen.

goldenoldie — October 10, 2011 at 9:08 a.m. ( | suggest removal


Nailingit, that list runs to number 513 yet only 60 accomplishments are listed. Now...if you could provide the entire list of 513, I'd be interested. 60 out of 513...hmm...

...and what about Number 93??? Did those jobs ever come to fruition???

goldenoldie — October 10, 2011 at 9:11 a.m. ( | suggest removal


Allen, probably too soon to say...it took a company 3 months of interviews to hire my daughter when she lived here.
It took Best Buy a month to go through all the interviews when they first opened on Mill Plain, Fred Meyers took over 2 months of interviews before they told someone I know they were not hired..so who knows how long it will take those who offered jobs at the job fair. I even know of some companies that will do up to 6 interviews with a person before hiring them.

ELISI — October 10, 2011 at 9:11 a.m. ( | suggest removal


In an email I received from Ms. Jamie, it said that she had 70 employers at her shindig and around 1700 job seekers. No numbers on how many actually got jobs but she was asking those who did get a job to please send her an email telling about it so she could brag about it.

hawkeye — October 10, 2011 at 9:12 a.m. ( | suggest removal


When we think those we elected aren't qualified, let's not throw the tax collector (Bachman) into the same arena as say...a constitutional law professor who was President of the Harvard Law Review. Once in awhile an aberration like Bush slips through the world of high academia and wreaks havoc on the world, but we now know some of the danger signs that accompany that. Articulation being one.

nailingit — October 10, 2011 at 9:14 a.m. ( | suggest removal


How about a list of Obama's broken promises versus promises kept, nailingit? Keep it balanced. Accountability!!!

goldenoldie — October 10, 2011 at 9:15 a.m. ( | suggest removal


goldenoldie @ 9:11... No. 93: Reinstate executive order to hire an additional 100,000 federal employees with disabilities within *five years.

Can't say for sure but I'm guessing not, since he's been in office less than three years and the employment situation is what it is. Please source website for further info.

nailingit — October 10, 2011 at 9:27 a.m. ( | suggest removal


Now our food supply is at high risk..

**AP IMPACT: Foreign insects, diseases got into US**

http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/ap-impact-foreign-insects-diseases-us-14702504

ELISI — October 10, 2011 at 9:39 a.m. ( | suggest removal


nailingit — October 10, 2011 at 9:14 a.m.

Is that the same constitutional law professor that insisted he has the authority to start a war without congressional approval?

frobert — October 10, 2011 at 9:43 a.m. ( | suggest removal


http://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/17/opinion/nocera-killing-jobs-and-making-us-sick.html

Our food supply oversight isn't the best now. Just think of the possibilities!

nailingit — October 10, 2011 at 9:55 a.m. ( | suggest removal


fromage @ 9:43

Yes.

hawkeye @ 9:50..fro will most likely stay quiet on your question, but I believe the answer to be yes.

nailingit — October 10, 2011 at 10 a.m. ( | suggest removal


Whats the matter today nailingit, you seem a tab bit grouchy, didn't get enough bran with your morning tea?

Or too much and got caught in a traffic jam?

ELISI — October 10, 2011 at 10:07 a.m. ( | suggest removal


hawkeye — October 10, 2011 at 9:50 a.m.

Care to point out where I said that or are you just making stuff up again?

frobert — October 10, 2011 at 10:11 a.m. ( | suggest removal


"elisi" @ 10:07. Please site example.

nailingit — October 10, 2011 at 10:13 a.m. ( | suggest removal


Allen — October 10, 2011 at 10:12 a.m.

The oath is to protect the constitution, not the country.

frobert — October 10, 2011 at 10:16 a.m. ( | suggest removal


goldenoldie — October 10, 2011 at 8:52 a.m.
*This inciting of violence is coming from all directions in the political spectrum,*

Might not want to do a frobert / ray / bob L, and actually bring something that shows what informed your thinking on this.....


mr_basil_seal — October 10, 2011 at 10:19 a.m. ( | suggest removal


Man this is great!!! Richard Land, a big shot for the Southern Baptist Convention just did an interview with Andrea Mitchell, and denounced Mormonism as a cult! Divide and conquer! Some of us saw this coming!

This issue of religion/politics is really at the forefront. Great time as a country to have a discussion about the constitution, our legal and political process, and the degree that we should involve personal faith/organized religion to influence these processes.

nailingit — October 10, 2011 at 10:20 a.m. ( | suggest removal


goldenoldie

Or you can do like Basil and ask the same answered question over and over again and try to pretend that you are important.

frobert — October 10, 2011 at 10:21 a.m. ( | suggest removal


Allen — October 10, 2011 at 10:15 a.m.

When they bring government past it's constitutional scope, they are no longer defending the constitution. Therefore defending ever expanding government is not within the oath of office.

frobert — October 10, 2011 at 10:25 a.m. ( | suggest removal


Hawk,

I think even some that will not be hired initially might be hired down the road.. I thought it was great to get that many companies HR people in one place and have the turn out they did. I'm sure there will be many dismayed people however that did not get hired. It's all part of the process one who really wants to be employed has to go through.. "There are no shortcuts to any place worth going." Beverly Sills...

vanwadreamer — October 10, 2011 at 10:29 a.m. ( | suggest removal


Allen — October 10, 2011 at 10:22 a.m.

The federal government is responsible for immigration and defense. The president needs to enforce any laws congress passes within its scope.

frobert — October 10, 2011 at 10:31 a.m. ( | suggest removal


As the Declaration of Independence states:

“That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, that whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to affect their Safety and Happiness.”

Even our forefathers recognized the idiocy of those around them. We have to keep the constitution in context with those who authored it. We look around today and see the Rick Santorum's, the Ryan's, the O'Connells, the Vitter's, the Weiner's the Bachman's (strike that as women were barred from taking part in the shaping or writing) the Cain's (strike that as African Americans were continually treated as non-humans) and we have to understand that...

...these guys were around back then. Just different people, with the same flaws, mental capacity and social awareness as the politicians just named.

nailingit — October 10, 2011 at 10:44 a.m. ( | suggest removal


Allen — October 10, 2011 at 10:33 a.m.

"but doesn't it say in the constitution that congress makes the laws? If so, then the ever expanding govt is legal, right?"

The constitution gives congress authority to make laws within very limited constraints. So no it does not give congress authority to expand government.

"was or was not our country founded on the Constitution?"

No, the Articles of confederation preceded the Constitution.

"And by defending the constitution they are also defending our country?"

In a simplistic view.

Nothing in the oath of office forces someone to defend unconstitutional actions by the government.

frobert — October 10, 2011 at 10:44 a.m. ( | suggest removal


Some of you "constitutional purists", are like hard line Muslims with Koran in hand. You embrace outdated concepts and want to take us back a few hundred years. My God, they were accepting of hundreds of years of burning human beings alive atop a woodpile while nailed to a cross, because they dared to question matters concerning God.

The mindset today. It existed yesterday. And will continue to exist in the minds and politics of those that resist change, even when the need for change is blatantly obvious.

nailingit — October 10, 2011 at 10:57 a.m. ( | suggest removal


Allen — October 10, 2011 at 10:56 a.m.

I don't like those pledges, however I wouldn't go so far as to say it hurts the constitution. As voters I believe we should expect all of their promises the same as "pledges".

frobert — October 10, 2011 at 11:04 a.m. ( | suggest removal


Even when it comes to issues such as border protection/enforcement, the right wingers can stare at statistics and still accuse Obama of not doing anything, even though he's done considerably more than any previous administration. And I might add with some degree of political peril. Here's some more graphs and charting, not that it will make a difference to the mountain berry kool-aid crowd.

http://americasvoiceonline.org/research/entry/charts_enforcement_spending_and_deportation_levels_continue_to_skyrock

nailingit — October 10, 2011 at 11:05 a.m. ( | suggest removal


Allen — October 10, 2011 at 11:01 a.m

Yes that's true but we don't have the clout of a David Madore or Lew Waters or Jim Moeller.

hawkeye — October 10, 2011 at 11:12 a.m. ( | suggest removal


nailingit — October 10, 2011 at 10:57 a.m.

Obviously they were not accepting of burning, or the "prohibiting free exercise there of" clause would not be in the first amendment.

frobert — October 10, 2011 at 11:16 a.m. ( | suggest removal


Goldie and Elsie naw the exhaust would smell to bad

rincon1 — October 10, 2011 at 11:19 a.m. ( | suggest removal



Allen — October 10, 2011 at 11:16 a.m.

So is it only an unloaded gun in the open? How about a loaded gun in the open?

Honestly, I think the guns in the open would be better than concealed ones.

hawkeye — October 10, 2011 at 11:22 a.m. ( | suggest removal


frobert — October 10, 2011 at 10:21 a.m.

LOL...we're all important!!!

goldenoldie — October 10, 2011 at 11:22 a.m. ( | suggest removal


rincon1 — October 10, 2011 at 11:19 a.m.

Even worse than a biomass plant in downtown Vancouver???

goldenoldie — October 10, 2011 at 11:23 a.m. ( | suggest removal


fro- As a group, and discussing individual liberty no/maybe. Do you really believe the "magic" of writing the constitution caused centuries of racism and bigotry and it's consequences to somehow melt away? Just take a hard look at today's conservative movement. I've been looking for a credible source as to which of our founding fathers had direct/indirect ties to witch burning. Great subject and speaks to the narrow mindset of those who invoke a centuries old document, and expect it to be taken literally and without nuance or insight.

nailingit — October 10, 2011 at 11:29 a.m. ( | suggest removal


nailingit — October 10, 2011 at 11:29 a.m.

To the best of my knowledge no witch burning ever occurred in the new world. 19 were hanged but even the oldest of the founders, Franklin wasn't born until 14 years later.

frobert — October 10, 2011 at 11:42 a.m. ( | suggest removal


Allen — October 10, 2011 at 11:37 a.m.

It is already illegal to carry a loaded firearm in California, this law carries the prohibition over to unloaded firearms.

frobert — October 10, 2011 at 11:44 a.m. ( | suggest removal


how would you transport a firearm in calf after the law takes effect

rincon1 — October 10, 2011 at 11:44 a.m. ( | suggest removal


Allen — October 10, 2011 at 11:37 a.m.

Deferred prosecution. If he doesn't get arrested for a year it is wiped off his record.

frobert — October 10, 2011 at 11:48 a.m. ( | suggest removal


rincon1 — October 10, 2011 at 11:44 a.m.

Maybe you can call the police or Jerry Brown and have them transport for you. Probably have to dis-assemble before transporting.

hawkeye — October 10, 2011 at 12:10 p.m. ( | suggest removal


I wounder what the fee would be. I would probably not ever get it back or it would be rendered unshootable before I got it back

rincon1 — October 10, 2011 at 12:53 p.m. ( | suggest removal


ELISI-

You've got it right. But here is the last sentence of Obamas State of the Union address:

We have finished a difficult year. We have come through a difficult decade. But a new year has come. A new decade stretches before us. We don't quit. I don't quit. Let's seize this moment – to start anew, to carry the dream forward, and to strengthen our union once more.

Thank you. God Bless You. And God Bless the United States of America.

You know how psychologists study human behavior, Freudian slips and the meaning behind facial gestures?

It should not matter what religion Obama practices. As long as he comes to work on Monday morning, ready to do the peoples business, and work for the needs and rights of all Americans and observe and respect the natural laws of civilized people.

mangoboy — October 10, 2011 at 12:58 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Since everyone is doing links today, thought I would share a funny one from The Daily 'Couve. It's about Columbian comment-errs...

http://dailycouve.blogspot.com/2011/10/monday-october-10-2011.html

PadmaRani — October 10, 2011 at 1:13 p.m. ( | suggest removal


mango, I have only one little disagreement with your post. "As long as he comes to work on Monday morning,". The thing is, he never gets to go home from work. I hear people constantly ragging on Obama and other Presidents about "all the time off" they take and it's total BS. When you are the President, you work 24/7. Something happens somewhere, someone wakes you up and you are expected to perform. Anybody else have a job that demanding? He's lucky to keep his sanity with a job like that, and no fro, that's not an invite to slam him.

hawkeye — October 10, 2011 at 1:17 p.m. ( | suggest removal


PadmaRani- Thanks for the laugh. Too funny!

nailingit — October 10, 2011 at 1:54 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Oh man. This Jeffress guy who is in the news for being outspoken on Mormonism is on Hardball (MSNBC) today. You guys have to check out this dogged interview! It comes on again at 4:00. Long interview and Matthews is like a pit bulll!

nailingit — October 10, 2011 at 2:14 p.m. ( | suggest removal


mangoboy — October 10, 2011 at 12:58 p.m.

I really don't care what church Obama attended or anyone for that matter.

By Obama saying.."Thank you. God Bless You. And God Bless the United States of America." I stand by what I said earlier, that is incorrect, he should have said.."Thank you. MAY God Bless You. And MAY God Bless the United States of America."

By dropping MAY, is as I said...just a pew warmers statement by someone who hasn't a clue.

I have to agree with Hawkeye on the president no matter who is in the WH, works/on call 24/7..not 9 to 5. If you think the job is so easy mangoboy, take a look at pictures from any president from the day they take office to the last day in office..they all look tired, hair more gray, and worry line very pronounced...

ELISI — October 10, 2011 at 2:36 p.m. ( | suggest removal


ELISI,

I can see you cringe in front of the TV when that commercial for "Christian Mingle.com" comes on. I have to laugh every time I see it. Not because it's a bad idea but because they are telling you "what God wants for you". Like they would know. Just another money making business.

hawkeye — October 10, 2011 at 2:45 p.m. ( | suggest removal


LOL LOL Hawkeye, first time I saw it, my head whipped around and I thought..oh good grief.
I agree just another money maker...and I bet those who run it are as far from being a church member as one can get.

ELISI — October 10, 2011 at 2:51 p.m. ( | suggest removal


The company that runs the site (Spark Networks LLC) has about 25 other sites aimed at singles of a whole host of different faiths and origins. There is one for Italians, Jews, Asians, Canadians etc. They are even on the NYSE under the ticker name "LOV".

hawkeye — October 10, 2011 at 3:04 p.m. ( | suggest removal


I wonder if anyone would care if Obama was Muslim. Of course about half of Republicans already believe this! LOL

http://www.politico.com/blogs/joshgerstein/0810/Poll_46_of_GOP_thinks_Obamas_Muslim.html

nailingit — October 10, 2011 at 3:07 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Too funny Hawkeye!

Bet you the owner/s and those that work for them have no affiliation what so ever to any church.

Anyone that has to go through a company like that and others to find a date are losers anyway...in my book.

ELISI — October 10, 2011 at 3:09 p.m. ( | suggest removal


nailingit — October 10, 2011 at 3:07 p.m.

That's like a year old but I'll bet fro still believes it.

hawkeye — October 10, 2011 at 3:11 p.m. ( | suggest removal


nailingit, why even bring that up? That is a dead horse that was beaten to death 2 yrs ago.

ELISI — October 10, 2011 at 3:13 p.m. ( | suggest removal


I know hawkeye. But prejudice and bigotry only grow stronger. I wouldn't be surprised if the number was currently higher. A socialist Muslim!

nailingit — October 10, 2011 at 3:14 p.m. ( | suggest removal


elisi @ 3:13- Current events as well as your 2:36 post caused that "dead horse" to be brought up. Given recent controversy regarding religious beliefs, and what much of the subject matter on the forum has been today, strange that you should ask.

nailingit — October 10, 2011 at 3:20 p.m. ( | suggest removal


hawkeye — October 10, 2011 at 3:11 p.m.

I may have condemned some of the Presidents actions, I have never made any judgement on his or any other candidates religion. Your statement is insulting and obviously says something about your moral character.

frobert — October 10, 2011 at 3:20 p.m. ( | suggest removal


*But prejudice and bigotry only grow stronger. I wouldn't be surprised if the number was currently higher.
nailingit — October 10, 2011 at 3:14 p.m*

IF that had any truth to it nailingit, we sure wouldn't have had civil rights pass, nor would we have black doctors, nurses, lawyers, judges, police officers, teachers, business owners, or even the president we have today.

ELISI — October 10, 2011 at 3:22 p.m. ( | suggest removal


fro- Assumptions aren't always character driven or meant to be insulting. Given some of your views, to include abolishing the civil rights act, it's understandable such a misunderstanding can take place. :)

nailingit — October 10, 2011 at 3:26 p.m. ( | suggest removal


nailingit — October 10, 2011 at 3:26 p.m.

When have I ever supported abolishing the civil rights act?

Now you are disseminating misinformation.

frobert — October 10, 2011 at 3:29 p.m. ( | suggest removal


now, now nailingit, you are blowing this all out of shape, where did I say ANYTHING about Obama being a Muslim?
I didn't..I called him a pew warmer..and that is how I see him.
Do you even understand what a pew warmer is?
Someone that goes to church, to be at church for appearances only. Someone who knows just enough to get by..

He misspoke and I corrected the right term. Oh gosh by golly I ferget..I can't do that, that's not PC fer your crowd..well gosh darn by golly slap my hands and make me stand in the corner...NOT

ELISI — October 10, 2011 at 3:30 p.m. ( | suggest removal


ELSI & Fro

Great posts. Add supreme court judges to the list.. Ignorance again raises it's ugly head..Inuendo's....

vanwadreamer — October 10, 2011 at 3:31 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Is that an ad homonym or ad hominem attack? I can't tell.

PadmaRani — October 10, 2011 at 3:32 p.m. ( | suggest removal


elisi- Think in context to what was being addressed. My post addressed hawkeye's observation the poll was done a little more than a year ago. Given the political climate to include Obama's approval ratings, again, I would not be surprised if the % was higher.

nailingit — October 10, 2011 at 3:39 p.m. ( | suggest removal


elisi! I'm speaking of the subject matter you referenced and nothing more. Why you take comments made and apply them to yourself is also a bit strange. PC? Just strange.

nailingit — October 10, 2011 at 3:43 p.m. ( | suggest removal


I was just reading last weeks most read stories and noticed the number one most commented article was "Fourth Plain Standoff Ends Peacefully." Kudos to the VPD and their SWAT team for guiding the man to where he needed the help. It could have been a tragic ending.

Regarding Number 4 on the list, my heartfelt condolences to the family of Tyler Flowers...so young, such a tragedy as this young man lost his battle of survival after such a terrible accident.

goldenoldie — October 10, 2011 at 4:10 p.m. ( | suggest removal


fro @ 3:29- Do you? That is basic understanding as well as on the "to do" list amongst the majority of Libertarians. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I do believe the man you support not only as President, but as being the modern day hero of the Libertarian movement believes the same. At least I have heard him say so. Paul is generous with his interviews and views! I apologize if I "disseminated" and false info. It just flies in the face of Libertarian logic of no federal goverment except for border protection. I know you guys want this put back to the states, and not the fed.

Are you then saying you support the civil rights act?

God bless you for swimming upstream. Salmon, dissemination,...this is starting to get yucky.

Sorry if I have misunderstood your position on this from past conversations. And yes... I know some of the history of racial bigotry in our country in relation to the political sphere. Saving you and i from a red herring.

Red Herring? Dissemination? Salmon?...Yikes!!!

nailingit — October 10, 2011 at 4:27 p.m. ( | suggest removal


I'd say hominem, given the "breadth" of the seismic crack!

nailingit — October 10, 2011 at 4:35 p.m. ( | suggest removal


By the sound of discussion, I'd think it's "Hominy." Nailingit, are you getting hungry for supper already? Salmon? Red Herring? Bread(th)?

sorry.

What I had to say had nothing to do with your heated debate. I just felt at the moment I had to tease you a smidgeon.

goldenoldie — October 10, 2011 at 4:46 p.m. ( | suggest removal


http://www.kptv.com/story/15659252/couple-accused-of-killing-cody-myers-linked-to-fourth-death

Such a wonderful couple...NOT! IF these are the people who indeed killed Cody Myers along with the father and stepmother of the accused male, along with a fourth victim...I hope they get the stiffest penalty allowed by law. What degenerates!!!

goldenoldie — October 10, 2011 at 4:51 p.m. ( | suggest removal


nailingit — October 10, 2011 at 4:27 p.m.

"It just flies in the face of Libertarian logic of no federal goverment except for border protection."

Libertarian logic is that congress should only pass laws supported by the constitution, this would include the enumerated powers and the amendments. The fourteenth amendment authorizes congress to enforce by legislation the provisions of the article. This makes any parts of the act enforced upon the government perfectly legal.

frobert — October 10, 2011 at 4:57 p.m. ( | suggest removal


fro- "should only pass laws supported by the constitution..." a bit of doublespeak? I suppose the devil is in the details.

Such broad based logic!

Again, do you support the civil rights act?

nailingit — October 10, 2011 at 5:42 p.m. ( | suggest removal


I had an interesting conversation with The Columbian this morning. I asked if they would consider changing the list of most read to the list of most commented on. Some of the articles that are most read have only 1 or 2 comments at best. They count the pings not the comments.

It would be more fair to us basement dwellers to have the list of most commented on this forum. I also noticed that the article on C-Tran went away to the bottom of the list rather quickly. It appeared that it had the most comments and they were almost all negative. It should have stayed on banner for at least a day longer. It would have been more accessible to the people who use FB, instead of hunting for it.

There may be good news for us here in the dungeon though. They are looking into a new way to post on the articles without HAVING to use just FB. A lot of on-line papers use a different way of posting so you can use FB if you want to but you're not locked in and still can post using a screen name. They may also add like dislike to it. I don't like just the like button. Or the gray-bar feature for that matter.

If this happens, I will lead the charge up the the stairs. The reality is though it is a privately held publication and there are no guarantees that it will happen. See they are having the same problems with FB comments and identities that they had when it was screen names. It's much harder to police them than us.

JohnCasey — October 10, 2011 at 5:47 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Immigration reform takes on a whole new meaning!

nailingit — October 10, 2011 at 6:09 p.m. ( | suggest removal


goldenoldie @ 4:46 "By the sound of discussion, I'd think it's "Hominy." Nailingit, are you getting hungry for supper already? Salmon? Red Herring? Bread(th)?---{I'd say hominem, given the "breadth" of the seismic crack!}

goldenoldie...Breadth=breath==seismic=flatulence==crack=well, it's the orifice I sourced from where the original questionable comment originated from. I almost want to apologize for my thought process. I am a tortured soul that let Dow into my life, and not remembering why I did, just go's to my personal need. I think.

And here we are at full circle. PadmaRani's inquiry has turned into an inquiry. At center stage the harmonious John Popper will perform "Will the circle be unbroken".

~Is that an ad homonym or ad hominem attack? I can't tell.~ PadmaRani @ 32 minutes past the hour of one hour past two.

nailingit — October 10, 2011 at 6:34 p.m. ( | suggest removal


As far as these wallstreet rallys or whatever they want to call them, they should go person to person and get I.D. Check to see if they are on unemployment, food stamps, or any other government handout. If they are, stop payments. They apparently aren't interested in getting a job or improving their lives, just in protesting something they know nothing about. Now, we all know obama loves these guys. Most are getting some type of government subsidy and he will continue to promise them a rose garden in exchange for their votes. Shows the mentality of many of obama's supporters, or actually the lack of it.

cranky — October 10, 2011 at 6:45 p.m. ( | suggest removal


...and you don't want to know concerning salmon=?==?=dissemination=?!?==?upstream=?==?yucky=?!!?!==fly's in the face=!!!!!

nailingit — October 10, 2011 at 6:49 p.m. ( | suggest removal


cranky — October 10, 2011 at 6:45 p.m.

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."

frobert — October 10, 2011 at 7:38 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Padma: Brevity rules. You rock!

nailingit: Popper on the Hohner. Made my day with that reference, you did. :)

manthou — October 10, 2011 at 7:41 p.m. ( | suggest removal


If I had only thought of this first, I could be (fill in the blank) instead of (finish this sentence).

http://www.postling.com/plan_external.php

manthou — October 10, 2011 at 7:53 p.m. ( | suggest removal


speaking of oaths....

which should take precedence: the strict adherence to the supreme court's interpretation of the constitution, or the traditional and widely-held interpretation of the people?

a soldier takes an oath to "uphold and defend the constitution of the united states": if it becomes obvious that politics has infiltrated that body, should our military take control?

full disclosure: i was disturbed by obama's pick for the supreme court. instead of being a constitutional scholar, the pick was a person who fit the president's ideology. there were two judges in the bench who, after seeing what obama did, postponed their retirements until after his term.

DeeLittle — October 10, 2011 at 7:54 p.m. ( | suggest removal


DeeLittle: Depends on who is doin' the interpretin'. The Constitution is like the Talmud. The debates to its laws and meanings never end.

One man's scholar is another man's fool.

manthou — October 10, 2011 at 8:03 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Allen — October 10, 2011 at 7:47 p.m

Nowhere in the bill of rights does it limit them to citizens or to U.S. soil. It makes it quite clear that the rights convey to non citizens and outside of the borders of the country. It constrains the government.

frobert — October 10, 2011 at 8:13 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Allen — October 10, 2011 at 8:41 p.m

It constrains our government not theirs. This is not doublespeak, I would suggest you read the Constitution and associated amendments.

frobert — October 10, 2011 at 8:49 p.m. ( | suggest removal


manthou @ 7:41...The guy shreds the harp like nobody I've heard before. It like al di meola on a blues harp! Good to see you post!

nailingit — October 10, 2011 at 9:54 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Allen @ 9:16..."No doubt we got that dirt bag..."

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-05-02/pakistan-taliban-says-bin-laden-is-still-alive-geo-says-1-.html

I hope so Allen. I keep thinking he's going to pop up some place. But since I'm thinking that, it must mea...anyhoo...you never know!

nailingit — October 10, 2011 at 10:18 p.m. ( | suggest removal


roger — October 9, 2011 at 10:20 a.m.

Roger,

You disapoint me.

I would have hoped, that your discernment of syntax and personality would have allowed you to see that the late, Alleycat, is in no way related to Mr. J. Moeller.

[You might want to look at the first comment][1]

[1]: http://www.columbian.com/news/2011/au...

kn_dalai — October 10, 2011 at 11:10 p.m. ( | suggest removal


cranky — October 10, 2011 at 6:45 p.m.

It is apparent that you are one of the people who just don't get it, cranky. This protest isn't just about the unemployed or underemployed, the haves and the have nots. We stand together expecting change. Wall Street is the main focus of commerce, my friend...but the issue goes far beyond that and this is the best way for the PEOPLE of the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA to bring attention to insist on our government righting the wrong.

Cranky, why should the government go in and disrupt the movement in order to see who is working, who is acquiring government assistance or for that matter, who anybody is??? Is it that you want government intervention in order to disrupt the protest against the top 1% and their obvious manipulation of our system to better suit their needs while your grandmother starves because her $350 a month SSI won't cover a loaf of bread and the volunteers haven't made it to her doorstep with a hot meal or your little niece or nephew has to suffer the grueling pain of an empty, malnourished body?

goldenoldie — October 11, 2011 at 6:42 a.m. ( | suggest removal


Oh yeah, now we'll hear it. The same old stereotypical response..."That would never happen to *MY* family. It's the bums, the hippies, the tweekers...the lazy people."

To those who think this is all that is attending at the Occupy ....(fill in the blank) protests, you just don't get it and probably never will.

goldenoldie — October 11, 2011 at 6:45 a.m. ( | suggest removal


nailingit — October 10, 2011 at 6:34 p.m and at 6:49 pm...

LOL

Glad to see you recognized I was just in a teasing mood...and yes, I knew it originated from Padma's comment.

goldenoldie — October 11, 2011 at 6:48 a.m. ( | suggest removal


...and prior to her comment in fact.

goldenoldie — October 11, 2011 at 6:48 a.m. ( | suggest removal


http://www.columbian.com/news/2011/oc...

I get so gosh darned fed up with misleading titles to articles we read about every day. First of all, the US Senate is Democrat majority. To say the Senate Republicans are likely to kill the Obama Jobs Bill is outright misleading. Obama does not have the complete support of the Democrats in the Senate.

THIS is why I *hate* mainstream media!!!

goldenoldie — October 11, 2011 at 7:16 a.m. ( | suggest removal


Golden,
since I know you are somewhat hesitant to support any protests due to the possibility of violence breaking out, I appreciate your support of the "occupiers" and understanding of goals.

And I have asked this question a few days ago-which one of you posting here on this on a regular basis has actually gone to the protests and taken a look at who is present? I did. And I am thinking of joining them soon.

luvithere — October 11, 2011 at 7:20 a.m. ( | suggest removal


GO-
maybe, maybe not. I'm gonna wait and see how many R's jump ship compared to how many D's jump ship. If all 46(?) R's vote it down, I think it's fair to say they killed it.

I'll really be curious, although I'm not sure it's possible, how many Senators change their position AFTER there is some debate on the measure. Unless there are deals made, no votes will change. The only purpose of debates in Congress is a dog & pony show for the voters.

mrd — October 11, 2011 at 7:28 a.m. ( | suggest removal


kn_dalai,

I defer to your superior detective work. The style in the example you give is identical to alleycat on a calm day. Guess I should have gone back more than a couple of weeks. While I briefly considered the person you ID, I put him aside in favor of Moeller and the gentleman who works with knives, swords, plowshares and whatever else. The former because of living so many different lives, and the latter because of the seeming focus on self sufficiency ala a more austere lifestyle.

So, seeing as how this one is apparently "solved," how about another idea I've been turning over in my mind. Is it possible Mr. Basil Seal and frobert are the same person? Their discussions have been going on as long at least as long as the basement was created - perhaps longer. Perhaps someone formulating both sides of an argument? Or maybe even a split personality?

roger — October 11, 2011 at 7:31 a.m. ( | suggest removal


G. Bush, State of the Union, 2008, also reveals that final, grand finale statement, abbreviated. The speechwriters had to shorten the speech for television, so they drop "unimportant" words here and there. LOL And a side note, "trust the people" is mentioned 5 times. What about trust the people who deserve to be trusted?

"By trusting the people, our founders wagered that a great and noble nation could be built on the liberty that resides in the hearts of all men and women. By trusting the people, succeeding generations transformed our fragile young democracy into the most powerful nation on earth and a beacon of hope for millions. And so long as we continue to trust the people, our nation will prosper, our liberty will be secure, and the state of our union will remain strong.

So tonight, with confidence in freedom’s power and trust in the people, let us set forth to do their business. God bless America. Thank you all."

mangoboy — October 11, 2011 at 8:29 a.m. ( | suggest removal


Chris Matthews posed a provocative/insightful question this weekend. What would the Republicans rather have happen, kick the snot out of Obama for the next 4 years, or be stuck with Romney for 8.

nailingit — October 11, 2011 at 9:15 a.m. ( | suggest removal


Luvithere,

Good morning. What is the goal of the protestors in downtown portland? What are they trying to achieve?

Thanks...

vanwadreamer — October 11, 2011 at 10:22 a.m. ( | suggest removal



mrd — October 11, 2011 at 7:28 a.m.

Last I heard, there were 100 people in the US Senate, MRD. 46 from 100 equals 54. 46% would be enough for the failure of the Jobs Bill???

Since When???

goldenoldie — October 11, 2011 at 11:20 a.m. ( | suggest removal


Thanks, Nail, for the links. Vanwadreamer-I take your question as rhetorical. Seen it before from detractors who keep saying there are no goals. If you want to know, read up on it.

luvithere — October 11, 2011 at 11:29 a.m. ( | suggest removal


Luvithere,
Sorry to have hit a hot button, just thought you might have that info off the top of your head in a way that could be conveyed on here. Again sorry to have hit a hot button with the question..

Nail,
Thanks for the links.. It seems that someone has a quick reference link to questions.. Some people take it as a Rhetorical questions from detractors... I myself have asked several people whom I work with what the goals were but no one has taken the time to find them out nor did they know what they were.- so that was my question, thanks for the links..

vanwadreamer — October 11, 2011 at 11:49 a.m. ( | suggest removal


vanwadreamer-I apologize if I attributed the wrong motivation to you. Guess it sounded like you did hit a hot button with me.
But not really.

luvithere — October 11, 2011 at 11:52 a.m. ( | suggest removal


Luvithere-

Thanks and seriously very sorry the if I hit that button, not intended..I guess I felt same way back... I'm a little lazy and multi tasking so I thought I would ask the basement for a little quick help, most of the time easier that way..... No problem and have a great week..

vanwadreamer — October 11, 2011 at 12:01 p.m. ( | suggest removal


go-
I wasn't sure about the head count, I think the senate is 46 R's, 53 D's, and 1 I. But whatever....

The point I was trying to make was if all 46 R's vote the proposal down along with 5 D's that will jump ship then I think it's fair to say the R's blocked it. If the vote weren't so obviously partisian, it would then be fair to say it simply didn't pass.

mrd — October 11, 2011 at 12:09 p.m. ( | suggest removal


That's okay, mrd. I understand where you're coming from. I just get so irritated with sensationalized news by mainstream media sometimes. Either way, would it really be at the fault of the Republicans...would it be at the fault of the Democrats who jumped ship...or would it be at the fault of a Job's bill which wasn't suited to fit the needs of the people without costing an arm and a leg and then some???

I'm just sick of the blame game, mrd. If everyone would utilize the energy spent in placing the blame to better use...we wouldn't be in the predicament we're in.

BTW, did you notice on the FB side that David Madore is cancelling his Columbian subscription??? I hope he's aware that 10 more people will begin theirs in the same day, lol.

...and SPEAKING ABOUT THE COLUMBIAN...

Hey guys and gals at the C...Whenever the RedPlum, P&G; and SMARTSOURCE coupon fliers are due to be inserted in the newspapers at the first of the month, they aren't making it to the news stands. Somebody isn't doing their job properly or they're keeping the inserts for themselves. Not fair to the rest of us who PAY for the paper. Naughty, naughty!!!

goldenoldie — October 11, 2011 at 12:18 p.m. ( | suggest removal


luvithere & vanwadreamer- Glad to lend a hand!

nailingit — October 11, 2011 at 1:01 p.m. ( | suggest removal


and why exactly is Madore canceling his subscription? Calling the C a leftie is just plain silly. Just read Lou's diatribes every week.
Vandreamer-have a great week yourself. Glad we got that misunderstanding settled.

luvithere — October 11, 2011 at 1:22 p.m. ( | suggest removal


What are we protesting against? Have you been in a time capsule for the last several years?

mangoboy — October 11, 2011 at 1:37 p.m. ( | suggest removal


As quoted part 1: "As we gather together in solidarity to express a feeling of mass injustice, we must not lose sight of what brought us together. We write so that all people who feel wronged by the corporate forces of the world can know that we are your allies.

As one people, united, we acknowledge the reality: that the future of the human race requires the cooperation of its members; that our system must protect our rights, and upon corruption of that system, it is up to the individuals to protect their own rights, and those of their neighbors; that a democratic government derives its just power from the people, but corporations do not seek consent to extract wealth from the people and the Earth; and that no true democracy is attainable when the process is determined by economic power. We come to you at a time when corporations, which place pro...fit over people, self-interest over justice, and oppression over equality, run our governments.

We have peaceably assembled here, as is our right, to let these facts be known.

They have taken our houses through an illegal foreclosure process, despite not having the original mortgage.

They have taken bailouts from taxpayers with impunity, and continue to give Executives exorbitant bonuses.

They have perpetuated inequality and discrimination in the workplace based on age, the color of one’s skin, sex, gender identity and sexual orientation.

They have poisoned the food supply through negligence, and undermined the farming system through monopolization.

They have profited off of the torture, confinement, and cruel treatment of countless nonhuman animals, and actively hide these practices.

They have continuously sought to strip employees of the right to negotiate for better pay and safer working conditions.

They have held students hostage with tens of thousands of dollars of debt on education, which is itself a human right.

They have consistently outsourced labor and used that outsourcing as leverage to cut workers’ healthcare and pay.

They have influenced the courts to achieve the same rights as people, with none of the culpability or responsibility.

They have spent millions of dollars on legal teams that look for ways to get them out of contracts in regards to health insurance.

They have sold our privacy as a commodity.

They have used the military and police force to prevent freedom of the press.

They have deliberately declined to recall faulty products endangering lives in pursuit of profit.

They determine economic policy, despite the catastrophic failures their policies have produced and continue to produce.

They have donated large sums of money to politicians supposed to be regulating them. They continue to block alternate forms of energy to keep us dependent on oil.

soapbox4u — October 11, 2011 at 1:42 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Part 2 - They continue to block generic forms of medicine that could save people’s lives in order to protect investments that have already turned a substantive profit.

They have purposely covered up oil spills, accidents, faulty bookkeeping, and inactive ingredients in pursuit of profit.

They purposefully keep people misinformed and fearful through their control of the media.

They have accepted private contracts to murder prisoners even when presented with serious doubts about their guilt.

They have perpetuated colonialism at home and abroad. They have participated in the torture and murder of innocent civilians overseas.

They continue to create weapons of mass destruction in order to receive government contracts. *

To the people of the world,

We, the New York City General Assembly occupying Wall Street in Liberty Square, urge you to assert your power.

Exercise your right to peaceably assemble; occupy public space; create a process to address the problems we face, and generate solutions accessible to everyone.

To all communities that take action and form groups in the spirit of direct democracy, we offer support, documentation, and all of the resources at our disposal.

Join us and make your voices heard!

*These grievances are not all-inclusive."

Source
http://occupywallst.org/forum/first-official-release-from-occupy-wall-street/See More

soapbox4u — October 11, 2011 at 1:43 p.m. ( | suggest removal


BTW, did you notice on the FB side that David Madore is cancelling his Columbian subscription???

He's taking his ball and going home. Poor guy, thought the C was dissing his beloved conservatives. Boo, hoo. With any luck, his supporters can follow him into oblivion.

I'll remember his packing up and going home if I ever see his name on a ballot. Of course just because you see it, doesn't mean he'll follow thru. Kinda like Palin.

mrd — October 11, 2011 at 2:31 p.m. ( | suggest removal


"We never hear a good word about our own conservative representatives like Paul Harris or Jeanne Stewart who faithfully work to make our community a better place."

"You do not sound like a small business owner. You would likely unlearn what you have been taught as a liberal if ever you start your own business."

"This liberal agenda to “soak the rich”..."

"The Columbian's Obama worship, love for new taxes, and continued attacks on conservatives helps explain why it continues to lose readers."

Sounds like not enough print time and continued obstinence to help fund many needed services for our elderly, sick and those that need affordable health care and services. To resent contributing to fund the very community that supplies the roads, the workforce, first responders, teachers, utilities etc. etc....and another..etc., that one lives in,...well, maybe jesus said it best.

"So whatever you wish that others would do to you, do also to them, for this is the Law and the Prophets."
(Matthew 7.12 ESV)

"For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.’

Then the righteous will answer him, saying, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? And when did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? And when did we see you sick or in prison and visit you?'

And the King will answer them, 'Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.'"
(Matthew 25.35-40 ESV)

nailingit — October 11, 2011 at 3:11 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Conservatism. It ain't what it used to be.

nailingit — October 11, 2011 at 3:14 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Must be that separation of church and state???

goldenoldie — October 11, 2011 at 3:32 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Hey Soapbox4u...you going to stick around for awhile???

goldenoldie — October 11, 2011 at 3:34 p.m. ( | suggest removal


“You know that the rulers in this world lord it over their people, and officials flaunt their authority over those under them. But among you it will be different. Whoever wants to be a leader among you must be your servant, and whoever wants to be first among you must be the slave of everyone else. For even the Son of Man came not to be served but to serve others and to give his life as a ransom for many.” (Mark 10:42-45)

nailingit — October 11, 2011 at 4:07 p.m. ( | suggest removal


“**Strong**When you judge another, you do not define them, you define yourself.”

ELISI — October 11, 2011 at 4:16 p.m. ( | suggest removal


"Capitalism tries for a delicate balance: It attempts to work things out so that everyone gets just enough stuff to keep them from getting violent and trying to take other people’s stuff."

George Carlin

nailingit — October 11, 2011 at 4:56 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Kinda makes you wonder who the R (and some D) really think they are representing.

And how far out of touch the aforementioned are with the 99% and #occupy.

**Americans in Poll Back Taxing the Wealthy**

By Mike Dorning - Oct 11, 2011 12:59 PM PT

Oct. 11 (Bloomberg) -- More than two-thirds of Americans, including a majority of Republicans, say wealthier people should pay more in taxes to bring down the budget deficit, and even larger numbers think Medicare and Social Security benefits should be left alone. More than 8 out of 10 Americans say the middle class will have to make financial sacrifices to cut the federal deficit even as the public just as strongly opposes higher taxes on middle-income families, according to a Bloomberg-Washington Post national poll conducted Oct. 6-9. Lizzie O'Leary reports on Bloomberg Television's "InsideTrack." (Source: Bloomberg)

**More than half of Republicans say wealthier Americans should pay more in taxes to bring down the federal budget deficit.**
Fifty-three percent of self-identified Republicans back an increase in taxes on households making more than $250,000, a sentiment at odds with the party’s presidential candidates, who will meet tonight in a Bloomberg-Washington Post-sponsored debate focused on economic issues.
More than two-thirds of all Americans back higher taxes on the rich and even larger numbers think Medicare and Social Security benefits should be left alone, according to a Bloomberg-Washington Post national poll conducted Oct. 6-9.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-10-10/cain-pulls-even-with-romney-on-economy-for-republican-supporters-in-poll.html

mr_basil_seal — October 11, 2011 at 5:15 p.m. ( | suggest removal


mr_basil_seal — October 11, 2011 at 5:15 p.m.

I actually have to agree with you on that one, some conservatives are talking about "fair tax" but how can you have fair tax until you have fair government. It doesn't matter if we have democrats or republicans in control, laws will always favor the rich.

frobert — October 11, 2011 at 5:26 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Panic of the Plutocrats
by Paul Krugman

And if you were listening to talking heads on CNBC, you learned that the protesters “let their freak flags fly,” and are “aligned with Lenin.”

The way to understand all of this is to realize that it’s part of a broader syndrome, in which wealthy Americans who benefit hugely from a system rigged in their favor react with hysteria to anyone who points out just how rigged the system is.

Last year, you may recall, a number of financial-industry barons went wild over very mild criticism from President Obama. They denounced Mr. Obama as being almost a socialist for endorsing the so-called Volcker rule, which would simply prohibit banks backed by federal guarantees from engaging in risky speculation. And as for their reaction to proposals to close a loophole that lets some of them pay remarkably low taxes — well, Stephen Schwarzman, chairman of the Blackstone Group, compared it to Hitler’s invasion of Poland.

And then there’s the campaign of character assassination against Elizabeth Warren, the financial reformer now running for the Senate in Massachusetts. Not long ago a YouTube video of Ms. Warren making an eloquent, down-to-earth case for taxes on the rich went viral. Nothing about what she said was radical — it was no more than a modern riff on Oliver Wendell Holmes’s famous dictum that “Taxes are what we pay for civilized society.”

But listening to the reliable defenders of the wealthy, you’d think that Ms. Warren was the second coming of Leon Trotsky. George Will declared that she has a “collectivist agenda,” that she believes that “individualism is a chimera.” And Rush Limbaugh called her “a parasite who hates her host. Willing to destroy the host while she sucks the life out of it.”

http://www.commondreams.org/view/2011/10/10-6

mr_basil_seal — October 11, 2011 at 5:28 p.m. ( | suggest removal


hmmm.... has one of the fb'rs fallen into the basement....?

DeeLittle — October 11, 2011 at 6:32 p.m. ( | suggest removal


> ***laws will always favor the rich.***

do you think the same applies to cain's 9-9-9 plan...?

DeeLittle — October 11, 2011 at 6:40 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Goldie: This one's for you, thanks to The Oregonian:

http://www.oregonlive.com/environment/index.ssf/2011/10/columbia_river_crossing_prime.html

Meet me over at the CRC Forum, if you can still find it. :)

manthou — October 11, 2011 at 6:58 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Looks like the Republicans saved the taxpayers 447 billion dollars today. I'm sure obama and his crew will not give up. I sometimes wonder if he gets a commission on every dollar that he puts us into debt. If that's the case, I can see why he wants to spend us into oblivion. There has to be some reason, because so far, about the only thing that his programs have accomplished is the wasting of billions of taxpayer's hard earned dollars.

cranky — October 11, 2011 at 7:21 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Mr_basil_seal,

Just what is the point of your post of 5:28 p.m.

Certainly, you realise, that this “information” is that of opinion, and should not be construed as a factual presentation.

kn_dalai — October 11, 2011 at 7:55 p.m. ( | suggest removal


goldenoldie — October 11, 2011 at 11:20 a.m.

This was not a vote for or against the bill. This was a vote for cloture, i.e. whether to have debate and a vote on the bill. The Republicans voted in mass not to have a vote on the bill. Think filibusterer. Although in the minority the republicans are still able to filibuster the bill, this is an indication of the total dysfunction of the senate as the rules now stand. Needing sixty votes to just bring a bill to a vote is an abrogation of the constitution. Now to a certain extent I like the filibuster, it has certainly kept some totally inept jurists off of the supreme court, but the way the republicans are playing this calls for any vote in the senate to pass the sixty vote criterion, which is of course utter BS. Go look at any number of sites which will demonstrate that the Republicans are totally out of whack with their filibustering techniques.

dfsadfh — October 11, 2011 at 8:23 p.m. ( | suggest removal


cranky — October 11, 2011 at 7:21 p.m.

Or the republicans have delayed the nation's economic recovery by deciding, with a minority, despite the public opinion which supports the job plan, that it is much more important for them to curtail Obama's reelection chances at the cost of the economy rather than allow the democratic party to pass a jobs bill which, per the CBO would decrease the deficit in the long run and increase the number of jobs.

dfsadfh — October 11, 2011 at 8:38 p.m. ( | suggest removal


"As one people, united, we acknowledge the reality: that the future of the human race requires the cooperation of its members; that our system must protect our rights, and upon corruption of that system, it is up to the individuals to protect their own rights, and those of their neighbors; **that a democratic government derives its just power from the people**, but corporations do not seek consent to extract wealth from the people and the Earth; and that **no true democracy is attainable** when the process is determined by economic power. We come to you at a time when corporations, which place pro...fit over people, self-interest over justice, and oppression over equality, run our governments."

"They have held students hostage with tens of thousands of dollars of debt on education, which is itself a **human right**."

"They have consistently outsourced labor and used that outsourcing as leverage to **cut workers’ healthcare and pay**."

"They have spent millions of dollars on legal teams that look for ways to **get them out of contracts in regards to health insurance**."

"They purposefully keep people misinformed and fearful through their control of the media."

"To all communities that take action and form groups in the spirit of **direct democracy**, we offer support, documentation, and all of the resources at our disposal"

These are examples of why the 99'ers do not represent us 69'ers. It is also an example of what is so seriously wrong with our government run education system. We are in agreement on many issues such as; corruption in our government, bailouts, lobbyists writing legislation, and influence of our courts.

But a majority of that list are claims to rights that don't exist. We are not a democracy, never have been, never will be. There is not a direct democracy on this planet as they are learning in Egypt today.

What has happened since 1913 and the bankruptcy of our country in 1933 has forever changed what was once know as capitalism and replaced it with oligopolies, money changers, and lawlessness. Our politicians are nothing more than puppets. As long as the people continue to protest for more government this will never change.

Rightwing_Extremist — October 11, 2011 at 8:43 p.m. ( | suggest removal


And just for fun, the Sierra Club has released their report card on the WA congress critters. http://horsesass.org/?p=37891

Will it surprise anyone that Jamie got an F?

dfsadfh — October 11, 2011 at 8:52 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Rightwing,

Can you source your last post.

mangoboy — October 11, 2011 at 8:55 p.m. ( | suggest removal


~What difference does it make to the dead, the orphans, and the homeless, whether the mad destruction is wrought under the name of totalitarianism or the holy name of liberty or democracy?~

Mohandas Gandhi

nailingit — October 11, 2011 at 9:02 p.m. ( | suggest removal


dfsadfh — October 11, 2011 at 8:23 p.m.

"Although in the minority the republicans are still able to filibuster the bill, this is an indication of the total dysfunction of the senate as the rules now stand. Needing sixty votes to just bring a bill to a vote is an abrogation of the constitution."

WHAT!

Are you suggesting that the fillibuster is really all about the majority.? I.E. the majority is going to filibuster itself?

Good Gawd.

In regards to the 60 votes, just how have you determined that this is an abrogation of the constitution?

kn_dalai — October 11, 2011 at 9:11 p.m. ( | suggest removal


~Democracy works when people claim it as their own.~

BILL MOYERS, The Nation, Jan. 22, 2007

nailingit — October 11, 2011 at 9:16 p.m. ( | suggest removal


dfsadfh @ 8:23 & 8:28...We need to hold these people accountable come next election!..."Nowhere is it written in the Constitution that a supermajority is required to pass legislation in the Senate. Indeed, the Constitution requires the use of supermajority rules by one or both houses of Congress in only seven specific situations (including overriding a presidential veto, confirming treaties, removing a president or other leaders who have been impeached by the House). But the filibuster rule is not among them."

"The Constitution’s drafters clearly knew how to impose a supermajority rule when they wanted to, yet they didn’t impose one for ending debate in the Senate. Various constitutional scholars have concluded that ordinary majority rule is the Constitution’s default baseline, except in those seven explicit instances."

"The filibuster rule is merely a peculiarity of antiquated Senate tradition, part of an anti-majoritarian streak that once protected a minority of slaveholding states. Such anti-majoritarianism was opposed by leading constitutional figures. James Madison and Alexander Hamilton warned about the creation of any legislative body which "contradicts the fundamental maxim of republican government, which requires that the sense of the majority should prevail" (Hamilton, Federalist Paper number 22).

"The problem with supermajority thresholds, as Hamilton and Madison pointed out, is that they allow a rump minority to exercise a veto over what the vast majority wants. Currently the 41 Republican senators represent barely a third of the nation’s populace. Yet through the filibuster they can strangle any legislation favoured by senators representing the other two-thirds. The resulting paralysis and gridlock undermines the Senate’s credibility."

http://mondediplo.com/blogs/return-the-us-senate-to-majority-rule

nailingit — October 11, 2011 at 9:38 p.m. ( | suggest removal


"And just for fun, the Sierra Club has released their report card on the WA congress critters. http://horsesass.org/?p=37891"

The environment is an important issue, but kind of hard to focus on if you are out of work, or underemployed, or have retirement savings dwindling, or have inadequate health insurance. Everyone has severely impacted category. Well, maybe only 99% of us.

mangoboy — October 11, 2011 at 9:40 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Romans 13:7
Render to all what is due them: tax to whom tax is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honor to whom honor.

nailingit — October 11, 2011 at 11:15 p.m. ( | suggest removal


In a way I'm thankful to the baggers and so-called "constitutional purists". Their willingness to visibly/vocally fight for what the Republican party has been all about for the last 30+ years, has brought to light the party's absurdities in their unwillingness to face 21st century realities/responsibilities that come with being a major political party. It only took them a couple of years to bring about the massive protests that are happening nation wide. Thank you baggers..sort of. Excerpt from a couple of years ago. For a great read go to site.

........."With fat cats taking home million dollar bonuses with taxpayers' bailout money, there's plenty for any rational American to be angry about these days. But many of the self-proclaimed "Tea Baggers" are so angry that they fail to see how blatantly they are being manipulated by the fat cats themselves. They hoist "Kill the Bill" signs provided by the same insurance lobby-linked groups that bus them to the rallies, such as Americans for Prosperity and FreedomWorks."

http://mostcorrupt.com/Whiskey-Rebellion.html

nailingit — October 11, 2011 at 11:58 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Nailingit, you have an interesting perspective and you almost had me completely siding with your view...but we hired in a president who promised hope and change and look what we have to show for it? Would another term by him bring about the change we were all hoping for rather than dreading? Also, do you truly believe what the Occupy protests are all about was brought on because of what the Republicans have done in the past or is it a combination of misdirected politicians from the majority parties that have screwed us over in that past 30 years?

We've got to stop the blame game and get our government working towards repairing that which has all but been destroyed, Nailingit...or that hope we've all been experiencing won't bring the change promised by our president. I don't know about you, but the change we're experiencing isn't the change promised by the Commander in Chief...or is it???

goldenoldie — October 12, 2011 at 6:22 a.m. ( | suggest removal


go-

With all the R's and 3 D's voting against a procedural item on Obama's jobs bill, I think it's now fair to say the R's blocked it. Especially since the vote wasn't on the bill itself, the vote was to end the debate-a fill\ibuster by the R's. Needed 60 votes, got 50.

mrd — October 12, 2011 at 7:30 a.m. ( | suggest removal


Assume the top two goals of Occupy are income redistribution and job creation.

What kind of effect will the massive redistribution of wealth have on the economy? Is there a historic record for that ever happening anywhere, and what were the consequences? And would this diagnosis/treatment here have any side effects.

Lets assume an emergency law is passed, all the wealthy% have to come up with a billion dollars each. They will have to sell lots of stock and bonds to get the money. When every other investor in the world who hears about this new tax in America, they also sell their stock in America. Every saver is hurt.

mangoboy — October 12, 2011 at 7:31 a.m. ( | suggest removal


Because the stock market plummets. The prudent, well managed corporations stock also gets sucked down. Issuing stock is the most important way for businesses to get financing to expand. So that greatly diminishes that option.

OCCUPY is just as dumb as the Tea Party, but with their own special version of stupid.

mangoboy — October 12, 2011 at 7:39 a.m. ( | suggest removal


Thanks for letting me know, mrd.

..

Funny comment of the day goes to Harold Olsen when he commented on the CRC Planners to hold two open house meetings article. His comment...

*"I would strongly recommend taking a shovel and nose clips to this meeting."*

My response to Harold...

*"Better wear Hip Waders!!!"*

goldenoldie — October 12, 2011 at 7:40 a.m. ( | suggest removal


mango-
pretty extreme example you used. perhaps taxing investment income at the same rate as earned income, removing the cap on SS, and ending Obama's tax cuts for the wealthy should be considered. Actually, I see poll numbers indicating a majority of R's support taxing the wealthy a little more. Maybe the "job creators" dog ain't huntin' no more.

mrd — October 12, 2011 at 7:58 a.m. ( | suggest removal


kn_dalai — October 11, 2011 at 7:55 p.m.

The " " within the piece give Paul Krugman's writing the support for a "factual presentation".

mr_basil_seal — October 12, 2011 at 8:11 a.m. ( | suggest removal


"...what we have to show for it?" [[[Review October 10 @ 8:59 & 9:01]]].

"Would another term by him bring about the change we were all hoping for rather than dreading?" [[[I don't know, but I think we are starting to head in the right direction. i.e. Jobs Bill initiatives and how to fund it.]]]

"Occupy protests are all about was brought on because of what the Republicans have done in the past or is it a combination of misdirected politicians from the majority parties that have screwed us over in that past 30 years?" [[[ Of course Republican's, Democrats, Independents share culpability when it comes to "screwing" us. It just hurts more when the GOPers drill us.]]]

"We've got to stop the blame game and get our government working towards repairing that which has all but been destroyed, Nailingit..." [[[I disagree. To understand a problem, one needs to know the source and what events caused the problem to begin with. 'Those that ignore history are bound to repeat it.']]]

"I don't know about you, but the change we're experiencing isn't the change promised by the Commander in Chief...or is it???" [[[Full circle back to "what we have to show for it?". Much done, much more to do.ref. beginning.]]]

I suppose it comes down to whose policies and framework you support, as to perspective regarding positive change for the future.

If one believes austerity trumps investment...

if outlawing abortion trumps individual freedom.

if defending DOMA trumps individual freedom.

if deregulating the banking industry trumps transparency.

if defunding FEMA trumps supplying disaster relief to people in need from an "act of God".

if rounding up 14 million people and the logistics/moral sacrifice/resources that would accompany that effort, trumps providing a path to citizenship for those contributing to our society.

If relying on a voucher system to meet our medical needs, to include trusting insurance companies to keep prices reasonable trumps Medicare and Medicaid.

If dismantling the safety net that Social Security provides, trumps not trusting the stock market for our "latter day" income.

Just a few goldenoldie...many more.

"...and you almost had me completely siding with your view..." [[[I doubt it. And that's okay. It's all about individual freedom and the choices that accompany them. It's a matter of perspective, and the freedom to express it. God Bless America.

When we vote, I strongly believe we should vote as to what is best for our country, rather than what will serve our personal/business interests. I think more than a few politicians on both sides of the aisle have lost their way. It's time our politicians acted in our best interests and not just their own.

nailingit — October 12, 2011 at 8:33 a.m. ( | suggest removal


goldenoldie- There are some real differences in the two major party's. The philosophy, the ideals, the priorities, economic statistics...I know this is not new information. Being a republican back in the seventies and eighties had a certain swagger and "Americanism" to it. Come the nineties, Rush and others came on the scene with little more to offer than attacks and blame. Then we begin the 21st century with a complete idiot as President and Satan for a 'Vice' President in charge for eight years. It's understandable why people are frustrated.

I'm starting up a private practice with will place emphasis on not only giving counsel/assistance to recently graduated female college students, but also offering services for those Republicans that have found their GOP to not be what it once was. The Baggers are leaving a trail of confused, disappointed, angry party members that need a home. :)) Being a Democrat isn't all bad. We get to laugh at the Republicans! And man, if all the world's a stage, this comedy/tragedy thing has certainly been on display.

nailingit — October 12, 2011 at 9:03 a.m. ( | suggest removal


"Austerity" was named the word of the year by Merriam-Webster in 2010.

A lot of either/or options nailingit. I think we need more options.

mangoboy — October 12, 2011 at 9:31 a.m. ( | suggest removal


Austerity I can live with. A basic social welfare safety net I cannot, at least knowing one exists would ease my mind and I suspect many others. Not a blizzard of county, state, city, and Federal programs. One. Keep it simple. So the disenfranchised do not have to reapply here, there everywhere filling out applications. One application with all the necessary data. Start by repealing the Health Care Reform Law, and replacing it with a Single Payer system that gives all Americans basic indentical benefits--including all government workers. If they want to and are able, they can add on their own private policies for uncovered care. The more we can simplify the system, the easier it will be to manage and understand.

mangoboy — October 12, 2011 at 9:51 a.m. ( | suggest removal


Let's see what can we apologize for now??? (Verifiable link at the end)

Leaked cables show Japan nixed a presidential apology to Hiroshima and Nagasaki for using nukes to end the overseas contingency operation known as World War II. Will the next president apologize for the current one?

The obsessive need of this president to apologize for American exceptionalism and our defense of freedom continued recently when Barack Obama's State Department (run by Hillary Clinton) contacted the family of al-Qaida propagandist and recruiter Samir Khan to "express its condolences" to his family.

Khan, a right-hand man to Anwar al-Awlaki, was killed along with Awlaki in an airstrike in Yemen on Sept. 30. We apologized for killing a terrorist before he could help kill any more of us.

It's yet another part of the world apology tour that began with Obama taking the oath of office to protect and defend the United States and its Constitution against all enemies foreign and domestic, something he immediately felt sorry for.

One stop on his tour was Prague in August 2009. There he spoke of "America's commitment to seek the peace and security of a world without nuclear weapons," ignoring that before 1945 we lived in such a world and it was neither peaceful nor secure.

Another stop on the tour was in Japan, where Obama in November 2009 bowed to the emperor, something no American president had ever done. It could have been worse if plans to visit Nagasaki and Hiroshima to apologize for winning the war with the atom bombs had come to pass.

A heretofore secret cable dated Sept. 3, 2009, was recently released by WikiLeaks. Sent to Secretary of State Clinton, it reported Japan's Vice Foreign Minister Mitoji Yabunaka telling U.S. Ambassador John Roos that "the idea of President Obama visiting Hiroshima to apologize for the atomic bombing during World War II is a 'nonstarter.'"

The Japanese feared the apology would be exploited by anti-nuclear groups and those opposed to the defensive alliance between Japan and the U.S.

Whatever Tokyo's motive, Obama's motive was to once again apologize for defending freedom, this time for winning with devastating finality the war Japan started.

While Obama envisions a world without nuclear weapons, and moves steadily toward unilateral disarmament of our nuclear arsenal, we envision a world without tyrants and thugs willing to use them against us. We do not fear nuclear weapons in the hands of Britain or France, countries that share our love of freedom and democracy.
[http://www.investors.com/NewsAndAnalysis/Article/587698/201110111829/Apologies-Not-Accepted.htm][1]

[1]: http://www.investors.com/NewsAndAnalysis/Article/587698/201110111829/Apologies-Not-Accepted.htm

scotty — October 12, 2011 at 10:05 a.m. ( | suggest removal


"A lot of either/or options nailingit. I think we need more options."

I agree mangoboy. I really believe in the not to distant future we'll have a viable four party system, not to include Independents. What is basically considered the tea party movement and a party that embraces progressive values.

As for next years elections the either/or complete with nuances and trade offs are all we have.

Even today's Wall Street Journal poll states that 2/3 of Americans want this jobs plan to not only pass, but paid for with the millionaire surcharge. The House and Senate Republicans are forgetting they are in office to do the people's business, not their own. Unconscionable.

nailingit — October 12, 2011 at 10:08 a.m. ( | suggest removal


mrd — October 12, 2011 at 7:58 a.m

Exaggeration for the sake of discussion, MRD-

We are in a dammed if you do, dammed if you don't predicament.
Big changes have the chance of destabilizing the entire system.Small changes probably won't have a significant impact.
If we raise the capital gains tax rates too much, there could be a massive dumping of stock before the rates take effect. So a very gradual increase there would be better. I agree with your suggestion about removing the ss cap.

mangoboy — October 12, 2011 at 10:09 a.m. ( | suggest removal


nailingit — October 12, 2011 at 8:33 a.m.

Nailingit my friend, I know we don't always see eye to eye on everything. Life would be boring now if everyone agreed with everyone, you know. In your statement at 8:33 am you said and I quote *"When we vote, I strongly believe we should vote as to what is best for our country, rather than what will serve our personal/business interests. I think more than a few politicians on both sides of the aisle have lost their way. It's time our politicians acted in our best interests and not just their own."*

Well nailingit...this is one statement that I agree 1000% with you.

Now...regarding the next comment:

"We've got to stop the blame game and get our government working towards repairing that which has all but been destroyed, Nailingit..." *[[[I disagree. To understand a problem, one needs to know the source and what events caused the problem to begin with. 'Those that ignore history are bound to repeat it.']]]*

I'm not asking to ignore history. I'm merely stating that everyone is too caught up in whose fault it is that the nation/world is in this predicament. Honestly nailingit...sometimes we all should take a look in the mirror before saying it's the other guy. We all have done things in our lives that if we could go back and change...our situation might be better. Now that we can see what issues led to the problem, it's time to find that solution. To regress back to the blame game...

it accomplishes nothing.

goldenoldie — October 12, 2011 at 10:33 a.m. ( | suggest removal


If a person would just let go of their attachment to being right, suddenly their mind would be more open. This person would be able to benefit from the unique viewpoints of others, without being crippled by their own judgment.

ELISI — October 12, 2011 at 10:53 a.m. ( | suggest removal


How true, ELISI...how true!!!!

goldenoldie — October 12, 2011 at 10:56 a.m. ( | suggest removal


MANGO-
I doubt if there would be much dumping of stocks. For the wealthy people we're talking about, a significant portion of their income is derived from returns on their investments. Could be short-term as they sell off to avoid the higher taxes, but that investment money would still have to be re-invested elsewhere. Most of us in the markets are there for retirement-long term-so any possible effect would be trivial at best.

To paraphrase Wareen Buffet-I've never seen an investor not invest due to possible tax liablities on his return.

mrd — October 12, 2011 at 11:07 a.m. ( | suggest removal


MRD,
I agree with one of your proposed actions, take off the cap on SS, But Investment income being taxed at same rate is not a good idea.. even if warren Buffet says to the contrary.. For people like myself who are investing for their retirement versus someone with Imense wealth there is a difference.
A restructuring of our current taxing way of life is needed. No more tax free gifts for corporations.. Implement a new fair and progressive tax for regular wage earners..I also think we could then start repaying socila programs like SS so it wouldn't be insolvent at some point...

vanwadreamer — October 12, 2011 at noon ( | suggest removal


when I pull money out of my retirement fund, it will be taxed as ordinary income. why should I get a lower tax rate if I make a living making millions off stocks, money markets, bonds, etc? That seems so tilted it's crazy. The political economics in this country are absurd. Our leaders have legislated winner take all economic policies, and most of us are losing-have been for decades. Something has to give.

BTW, the defeated jobs bill was supported by 30% polled, not supported by 20%, with 40% having no opinion. But when asked about specific provisions of the bill, over 60% liked them, including how to pay for it. I must be missing something.

mrd — October 12, 2011 at 12:29 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Ok then. You want religion out of politics? Then keep politics out of the churches!

DOJ: Feds Can Tell Church Who Its Ministers Will Be

http://cnsnews.com/blog/terence-p-jeffrey/doj-feds-can-tell-church-who-its-ministers-will-be

ELISI — October 12, 2011 at 12:30 p.m. ( | suggest removal


The power of the fed anymore is out of control.
The Constitution is NOT a roll of toilet paper. If you aren't outraged you aren't paying attention!!!

ELISI — October 12, 2011 at 12:32 p.m. ( | suggest removal


mrd-

"why should I get a lower tax rate if I make a living making millions off stocks, money markets, bonds, etc? That seems so tilted it's crazy."

Lets flip that over. Why not lower tax rates to match capital gains?

On another related deal, ordinary savers should be given a minimum return on savings accounts at the bank. Economic injustice is paying you next to zero and loaning it out to someone else at 5 to 10% interest. Rewarding saving money is an important societal goal but they are basically saying so what/who cares.

mangoboy — October 12, 2011 at 12:45 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Lets flip that over. Why not lower tax rates to match capital gains?

'cuz we're broke?

mrd — October 12, 2011 at 1:05 p.m. ( | suggest removal


MRD-
How about the tax free retirement plans many of us use daily. Like my SEP and Roth.. Those are non taxed when I retire..Hopefully by then they will stay that way...

vanwadreamer — October 12, 2011 at 1:05 p.m. ( | suggest removal


vanwa-

that's because the money you invested was already taxed, unlike 401(k) money which is pre-tax. You'll still pay ordinary tax rates on any gains.

mrd — October 12, 2011 at 1:09 p.m. ( | suggest removal


'cuz we're broke? Almost. The government is broke, and we are not far behind. So why chase good money with bad? Do you like supporting Federal Workers who earn on average over 100k per year including bennies?

mangoboy — October 12, 2011 at 1:09 p.m. ( | suggest removal


"Do you like supporting Federal Workers who earn on average over 100k per year including bennies?"

Everyone wants good paying jobs with bennies in their community. Until they've got to pay for them? Maybe our community leaders should encourage local wage reductions to attract more business? Accelerate the race to the bottom? Maybe that should be flipped. Raise private wages to match public wages. Oh yea, I forgot about the race to the bottom.

As we wallow in a depression, the baggers want to cut federal spending to the bone. Ask the people of Greece how that's working. Take hundreds of billions of dollar out of an already depressed economy. That oughta do the trick.

mrd — October 12, 2011 at 1:20 p.m. ( | suggest removal


If you want to understand **The OCCUPY WALL STREET Protests** one needs to take a trip in Austin Powers time machine and go back to the **60's**.(and 70's)

It's a protest against **The ESTABLISHMENT**!!!!

The protests were against LBJ and the Dems as much as they were against Nixon and the Reps. Both were "The Establishment".

I along with many others sure didn't like what was going on under the Bush Admin and do not see the expected 'Change' with the Obama Admin.(business as usual)

We've bailed out the banks with free cash (0% interest) and if they did nothing but buy Treasury Bonds with the money (which is what they are doing) we are paying them 2%+ interest on the money we gave them and as a "thank you" they raise all their fees to their customers and tighten the qualifications for a loan. Then in the end pay themselves a bonus. (for doing what?) Through the whole financial mess have we seen anyone brought up on charges let alone convicted of any wrong doing? (I don't mean insider trading)

All of these "Job Creator" Corporations are creating jobs in other countries by eliminating positions in the US and they want a tax break for the effort. (and we have a tax code that allows this, STILL). And the one company that didn't take bailouts in an industry that got them (Ford) is the only one that promised to bring jobs back to the US.

I am not talking about those who actually own a company or business and actually hire employees. I am talking about those that are CEOs, COOs, presidents, ETC. that are nothing more than employees themselves (hired to be managers by the boards) that own no more than maybe a few thousand shares of stock in a company that sometimes has as many as 20 shares of stock outstanding for every man, woman, child and illegal alien in the US.

The "rape" of the Constitution and individual rights that happened during the GW's term still continue through Obama's term so far. I have yet to hear where Holder was going to court to limit the rights of the Administrative Branch.

And Ex-Governor Moonbeam, now Governor Brown refusal to veto a bill to limit search of electronic devices?

It's a protest against **The ESTABLISHMENT !!!**

pdxtech91 — October 12, 2011 at 1:23 p.m. ( | suggest removal


I would be willing to pay 50% tax rate if I felt it was being spent efficiently and fairly.

There are just too many governmental agencies and entities. The whole system should not be tweeked. It needs a major overhaul.

This complete fantasy that we can afford a middle class existence for everyone? Sorry the reality is there just are not enough suburbs, roads, Stanfords and Red Robins, and two car garages with two cars inside to go around, jet vacations, and expensive hospital operations to extend life one month. etc.

So we need to build up from the bottom. Start with a safety net for all citizens, and start with basic universal health care. So no matter what lousy job you have, you at least don't have to go begging for medical basics. Lets give ourselves and our fellow citizens some dignity.

mangoboy — October 12, 2011 at 1:30 p.m. ( | suggest removal


mangoboy — October 11, 2011 at 8:55 p.m.

The first half that was quoted came from OWS's Declaration http://nycga.cc/2011/09/30/declaration-of-the-occupation-of-new-york-city/

I then offered my opinion about our common ground and the things I feel they are misguided on.

I'm sure you were more interested on the close though. If you are prepared for a great deal of reading I am including links.

The definition of a bankrupt is one who can't pay his bills... and that's the Federal government - in that it repudiated its promise to redeem its IOUs. In addition, the term "bankrupt" was taken out of the BANKRUPTCY code. (!?) and replaced with "debtor". All creditor - debtor agreements are with bankrupts. Finally, no sitting judge will rule that a dollar bill is a dollar. So they know that there is no lawful money since 1933.
And the fractional coin has been counterfeit since 1965.

Senate Report 93-549
War and Emergency Powers Acts

"A majority of the people of the United States have lived all of their lives under emergency rule. For 40 years (as of the report 1933-1973), freedoms and governmental procedures guaranteed by the Constitution have, in varying degrees, been abridged by laws brought into force by states of national emergency."

http://home.absolute.net/xode/nwofraud/Bankruptcy_fraud/Bankfraud1.htm

http://bestamericangoldcoin.com/goldconfiscation1933.html

http://goldcoin.org/numismatics/the-great-confiscation-gold-ownership-was-illegal-in-the-usa-from-1933-to-1975/165/

Rightwing_Extremist — October 12, 2011 at 1:43 p.m. ( | suggest removal


I have been able to locate one protester that I can agree with

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rQow0F...

Rightwing_Extremist — October 12, 2011 at 1:45 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Right on RWE! I agree 1000% with what the guy said.

ELISI — October 12, 2011 at 1:58 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Wow...he's all of what??? 25 years old and sees everything for what it is...the absolute TRUTH!!!

I second your comment, ELISI!!!!

Rightwing...this young man has hit the bullseye!!!

goldenoldie — October 12, 2011 at 2:14 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Anyone hear about a problem in Portland with the protesters refusing to clear Main street?

I just caught the last of a news tid bit on the radio..

ELISI — October 12, 2011 at 2:25 p.m. ( | suggest removal


I think the police are getting ready to take action on the matter.

goldenoldie — October 12, 2011 at 2:29 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Wonder if they will have the same problem in Vancouver this weekend when the protesters move to here..

ELISI — October 12, 2011 at 2:36 p.m. ( | suggest removal


MRD-
Excuse me the Roth is tax free earnings after 59.5 yrs of age..One of the best plans going though and you can start with a low monthly amount....

vanwadreamer — October 12, 2011 at 2:37 p.m. ( | suggest removal


I heard they had the bean bag rounds ready, not sure if they were to protect the occupiers from cars or not.

Rightwing_Extremist — October 12, 2011 at 2:45 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Got the TV on just in case there is a "breaking news" alert on whats going on. So far, nothing.
Running between it, computer and kitchen...getting my exercise for the day..lol

ELISI — October 12, 2011 at 2:51 p.m. ( | suggest removal


vanwa

as I understand it a Roth IRA is not taxed at withdrawal because the money was taxed when earned. Unlike a 401 or traditional Roth where the contributions are deducted from taxable income for the year made, and therefore subject to tax upon withdrawal, the Roth IRA is not deductible for the year contributions are made and therefore can be withdrawn tax free after 59 1/2 because the tax was paid up front. There is no way to avoid tax on income. You'll pay now (Roth IRA), or later (401K).

mrd — October 12, 2011 at 2:55 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Protesters are still refusing to clear Main st in Portland.
Adams suggest 3 different places for them to move too and they still refuse to move.
Next step is for the police to move in, do a force move or bean bag them and arrests.

ELISI — October 12, 2011 at 3:02 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Rightwing...this young man has hit the bullseye!!!

Yes, with a liberal dosing of bullpucky...

The only thing the Federal Government is good for is defending the borders?? If this foaming at the mouth nuttso believes in states rights so fervently, let Gov. Perry defend the Texas border, and every border state. And when you get overrun by Central Americans, don't come crying to the nation for help.

We do not need 50 different state governments gobbling up our hard earned, nearly worthless currency and superceding Federal Law. This is AMERICA FIRST.

mangoboy — October 12, 2011 at 3:47 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Occupy is focusing their complaints against Corporations. Thats all well and fine. But who empowers, regulates, taxes or does not tax, and takes money from the Corporations?

Its the Government!!!

Corporations are mindless entities, like sharks swimming around looking for their next meal. They are just obeying their instincts. They are not people, as Mitt Romney and the SCOTUS would have us believe.

So take OCCUPY to where it should be. Washington, D.C.

These OCCUPIers are like customers going to the bank demanding their money, after the bad guys have already cleaned it out. Go after these worthless politicians in D.C. who cannot seem to get anything accomplished. Lock them in the Capitol Building until they come up with some decent legislation!

mangoboy — October 12, 2011 at 4:06 p.m. ( | suggest removal


ELSI

well, i guess they FINALLY found the 'flashpoint' they've been so diligently searching for

(don't talk 'demonstrations' to a 60's gen'r)

DeeLittle — October 12, 2011 at 4:08 p.m. ( | suggest removal


mangoboy — October 12, 2011 at 4:06 p.m.

What's really funny is the M1 money supply is only $2.1 Trillion. How is it ever possible to payoff the debt?

Rightwing_Extremist — October 12, 2011 at 4:18 p.m. ( | suggest removal


DeeLittle — October 12, 2011 at 4:08 p.m

IMO the main core of the protesters have moved on to their homes and jobs for another day.
Those that remain are ones that have "latched" onto the main core and really do not have a clue what is truly being asked/demanded by the main core of the OWS group.

In the late 60's and 70's we witnessed these same type of latchies during our protests against the Vietnam war and the government.
They latch themselves onto a group to just feel like they belong and they really do not understand. These latchies turn out to be the very ones that cause trouble and destroys what the main core sets out to accomplish.

ELISI — October 12, 2011 at 4:48 p.m. ( | suggest removal


There are a lot of people wondering that same question, RWE, at least personal debt is going down. We are too proud to ask anyone to restructure or forgive our national debt. Not the U.S.A.-that would be almost as humiliating as 9/11. And what is that they say about pride, it always comes before the fall. The gold standard seems wacko. It is supposed to have real value. Then why eliminate other tangible assets for backing the currency? (silver, platinum, diamonds, rolex watches, assorted booty. I suppose gold is the only precious commodity mentioned in the U.S. Constitution, so that's why we have to use that for our standard. Yada Yada.Its just a yellow metal useful for various industrial applications, and available in great abundance. One thing can be counted on with protests--they always bring out the cracked pots.

mangoboy — October 12, 2011 at 4:57 p.m. ( | suggest removal


"Now, what about the Fed printing money? When politicians talk about the Fed printing money it sounds as though the printing presses are running and more and more new bills are produced. That is not the way it works. “Printing money” is a figure of speech. The Fed “prints money” by transferring money from the Federal Reserve to commercial banks. These are all electronic transfers. When the banks have more money they can make more loans and interest rates decline, but only if people and/or businesses want to borrow the money. Most of the time in the last three years the banks have had plenty of money to lend but too few who wanted to borrow it. As a result, little additional spending resulted from the banks having more money available."

"There is one last fact about “printing money”. The Fed could supply truck loads of bills to the local banks, but there will be no more bills in circulation unless people and businesses take them out of the banks. How much currency we need printed depends on how much we Americans, and some people in other countries, want to carry with them or keep in their homes and businesses. The Fed doesn’t control the quantity of the currency in circulation – we do."

"So the next time a candidate for office complains about the Fed printing money, remember we control the amount of currency in circulation. The money that politicians say is being printed exists only as electronic transfers among banks. Ultimately we determine how much money exists by how many dollars people, businesses, and governments borrow and spend. The Fed may influence this but it can’t control it."

http://thesnaponline.com/opinion/x1953750965/Does-the-Fed-really-print-money

nailingit — October 12, 2011 at 5 p.m. ( | suggest removal


What's really funny is the M1 money supply is only $2.1 Trillion. How is it ever possible to payoff the debt?

With a fractionalized banking system, why is it important to pay off the debt? I see the importance of reducing federal deficits, and more importantly trade deficits, but the national debt? Reduction may be great, but elimination? It seems more important to have money, even "virtual money" circulating. That's what makes an economy hum. The fractionalized system allows more money to be circulating without the need to crank up the presses to do so.

To hold the federal government to accounting standards a business would use in the formation of some kinda asset/liability, cash on hand, accounts receivable thing seems preposterous. How much is the Lincoln Monument worth? The interstate highways? The national parks?

Money is so phony, why not just mint a couple dozen platinum coins worth a trillion dollars each, stick them in a vault, and call it good? It's all voodoo economics anyway, dog and pony BS, fearmongering, whatever, as long as the 1% get theirs.

mrd — October 12, 2011 at 5:08 p.m. ( | suggest removal


"""We do not need 50 different state governments gobbling up our hard earned, nearly worthless currency and superceding Federal Law. This is AMERICA FIRST."""

Mangoboy, with all due respect...

...the 50 different state governments are already doing what you say we don't need them to do. Whether you want to believe it or not, we are paying the price for a dysfunctional corporate America and the state, county and city governments are right there, wringing their little nasty hands, playing the same game to drain us all dry. These bailouts went to companies with overseas affiliations. Of course, I'd like to see our leaders in government to think America First...but the fact remains that their first interests are in their own little pocketbooks. If they gave a dang about the people who voted them into office, we wouldn't be in the situation we're in right now.

goldenoldie — October 12, 2011 at 5:28 p.m. ( | suggest removal


I think of currency as a promise to pay. Nothing more, nothing less. But it is possible for faith and confidence in the dollar to evaporate. So its not a bad idea to have tangible assets as a part of your investment portfolio. It does not have to be gold. I could obtain a good supply of fossilized dinosaur crap which is rare and only found in museums behind glass cases and obscure locations in various desserts. This is just as good as gold and far more interesting. All that DNA and what not in there...

mangoboy — October 12, 2011 at 5:35 p.m. ( | suggest removal


LOL mangoboy...I like your "creative" investing strategy. BTW, fossilized dinosaur feces are also referred to as coprolites. Not much face value.

goldenoldie — October 12, 2011 at 5:41 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Thunder Eggs!!!

Getting back to the protester--I agree on very little with him-but isn't it great that the Occupation has created a forum where he could be heard, without being silenced by the "Authorities." The greatest thing to come from Occupation could be the sharing of ideas. Just like here in the good old basement.

mangoboy — October 12, 2011 at 5:55 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Elisi @ 4:48.

Latchies? Never heard that one back on the East coast.

For the sake of discussion, the peaceful gatherings and speeches from the likes of Dick Gregory rarely played off campus. Troublemakers like Rennie Davis, the Yippies, the VVAW, and others - they were the ones that drew the large crowds and the Press.

But as I've said before - I doubt either approach was much more than an irritant. The ones who really stopped the war were the mothers and fathers from small town America who were tired of losing their sons for no real reason. When they let Wash DC know it had to stop, then our leaders paid attention.

roger — October 12, 2011 at 6:39 p.m. ( | suggest removal


roger — October 12, 2011 at 6:39 p.m

I spent my high school yrs and a yr at Boise State...my group of friends started calling them "latchies" and it just stuck..even after all these years I still call those that just show up but really aren't part of the main group, latchies..they are there to cause trouble.

ELISI — October 12, 2011 at 7:41 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Mangoboy,

Lumping all Federal workers into one group to come up with an average salary provides a misleading picture. There are about 6 or 7 different categories, with many being the type like the SES which start out at well over $100K per year just in base pay. These people are mainly in the DC area and foreign capitals. At the other end of the spectrum are the WG (trades and blue collar) and GS (Admin, Logistical, Tech, Engineer, Security, and many other careers - most highly specialized). Only a very few max out at GS 15 and are ever able to approach this $100K per year you've been hearing about. And even these groupings can provide a skewed picture - Engineers, Attorneys, various law enforcement Agents, some Techies and a few others start out around $50K to $70K per year, while other areas like Admin and Logistics will almost never reach this figure. There are tens of thousands making around $30K to $40K per year - go to any military base and these are the GS 4 to GS 7 civilians you'll see taking care of the people and equipment.

And why is any of this meaningful? Well, when the Federal government starts cutting jobs, take a wild guess as to who will be out on the street. And I'll give a hint - the average pay figure for those left will increase.

roger — October 12, 2011 at 7:47 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Elisi,

I was in a little place in north central PA - I think the main reason most of us were there was because it was a few miles from the New York border and their 18 YO drinking age. Of secondary importance were easy courses and IIS deferments. Nothing ever happened there.

roger — October 12, 2011 at 7:55 p.m. ( | suggest removal


roger-

Sure the average salary is misleading. Most Federal workers make far less, so to come up with the 100k including health and retirement bennies, there must be quite a few who are making far more. And they are well entrenched and virtually untouchable in the bureaucracy of Washington. When they are ordered to cut their staff department budgets I doubt if they cut their own jobs, even if they know it is unnecessary or could be done by another agency more efficiently. They cut the rank and file workers out probably.

mangoboy — October 12, 2011 at 8:05 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Roger, my dad was Army and if he knew the times I said I was with friends at one of their houses or movies but really at the protests..he would have beat my backside into tomorrow.

Then after I married I had to keep quiet cause my husband was in the military, if I got into trouble it would have been hell on him. So the three yrs he was stationed in Ca where some of the biggest protests took place all I could do was read about them or watch what went on, on tv.

ELISI — October 12, 2011 at 8:12 p.m. ( | suggest removal


ELSIE

found myself in the south during that time.

civil rights marches, etc.

i have the dubious honor of being threatened by the KKK, but i'm nothing (and neither are these 60's wannabe's) compared to the REAL marchers, those with dr. king in mississippi, georgia, alabama....

these pampered wannabe's seem so ... self-serving and venal compared to them.

DeeLittle — October 13, 2011 at 3:12 a.m. ( | suggest removal


mangoboy — October 12, 2011 at 5:55 p.m.

Just like here in the good old basement...our Cellar where fine Whines are produced, lol. And yes, excellent ideas are formed...recipes shared, concerns about government raised, excellent discussion from all directions where nobody feels threatened enough to abstain from sharing their opinion...yep!!!

The Cellar, indeed. (thanks Columbian)

goldenoldie — October 13, 2011 at 6:18 a.m. ( | suggest removal


"""We consumers really control the market on where we bank, shop, ect, ect."""

You're absolutely right, Allen. Without the consumers, those who capitalize on the profits lose their profit margin...and unfortunately, their greed prompts them to raise prices as they want that comfortable cushion. Isn't that what inflation is all about? If people cut back on keeping up with the Joneses and there wasn't a market for the items to purchase (cellular phones for instance), companies would cut back, fold...jobs lost, more families struggling, more dependence on our government, more government debt... Oh yes, foreign makers would feel the pinch but we would here, too. It's not just a housing bubble that has burst, it's the retail market bubble as well. Just look at the companies that have folded or cut back on their employment roster since 2008???

sigh...

It's a vicious circle and we all have nobody to blame but ourselves. All the more reason to rethink our lifestyles and stop thinking about the haves and have nots, the wants and the want nots...to be thankful for what we have and work to improve ourselves rather than run out to buy the biggest, best, most modern gadgets because Joe Schmoe wanted it so that means you have to buy it.

Today, investing in self reliance...learning how to do things on your own rather than finding merchandise that does it for you, to live without...

is the NEW reality.

goldenoldie — October 13, 2011 at 6:31 a.m. ( | suggest removal


Mangoboy, speaking of those "investments" you mentioned...I'd be betting on seed savers..you know, the folks who harvest vegetable seeds from their home-grown produce. I'd also be betting on the sportsmen who harvest wild food like fish, clams, oysters, crab, deer, elk, birds, berries, edible mushrooms...etcetera. If there's no no gold, no silver...no monetary market...

Also...an independent source of power whether it be wood heat, solar, wind, water energy. Even when living in an apartment or choosing a new apartment, you can find out if your landlord has an alternate source of energy for the building should the power go out. If you can't pay a utility bill with no monetary market...

How would you buy food? Without food, there's no existence. Without alternate energy sources in your home...you'd have to move to warmer climate which means a potentially highly crowded southern half of the US...no garden space, no food...

Self Reliance is the best investment. Education begins with each and every one of us. If we're on the internet, the information is at our fingertips. It isn't too late to get started on the number one investment...Becoming Self Reliant! Learning to cook from scratch, to grow your own vegetables, even if you live in an apartment (there's community gardens available and always an old abandoned walnut or apple tree to harvest from...along with gleaning activities), to hunt, to fish, to recognize edible wild food.

The longer people wait...the harder it will become.

goldenoldie — October 13, 2011 at 6:45 a.m. ( | suggest removal


‘PEOPLE OF MERIT’: GLENN BECK LAUNCHES 1791 CLOTHING LINE

It just doesn't get any better! LOL!!!

A study should be done. Do the same people who get sucked into telephone scams follow Glenn Beck? His message of "self-reliance" sure pads his wallet!

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/people-of-merit-glenn-beck-launches-1791-clothing-line/

nailingit — October 13, 2011 at 8:04 a.m. ( | suggest removal


Ol' Glenn really leads by example!! That "self-reliant" "socialist" message really is comin' through Glenn!

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/07/01/glenn-beck-new-home-texas-_n_888821.html#s302050

nailingit — October 13, 2011 at 8:08 a.m. ( | suggest removal


Congress is just not getting it.

WASHINGTON -- Even as protesters fed up with corporate power are occupying Wall Street, Congress is rushing to oblige it.

In an iconic example of how Congress puts big-money interests above others, bipartisan momentum is growing on Capitol Hill for a repatriation tax holiday -- a huge, temporary reduction in the tax rate on money brought back to the U.S. from offshore tax havens. Critics say the repatriation tax holiday is a multi-billion-dollar tax giveaway to the world's biggest multinational companies, with nothing in it for domestic businesses or ordinary Americans.

"I'm not sure it gets any starker than that," said Chuck Marr, director of federal tax policy at the Center on Budget and Policy Priorities.

nailingit — October 13, 2011 at 9:25 a.m. ( | suggest removal


"If we are going to fire every Southern hillbilly who thinks Obama is like Hitler, who will be our Republican congressmen?" –Bill Maher

nailingit — October 13, 2011 at 9:37 a.m. ( | suggest removal


Allen, it is my opinion that Bank of America as well as Chase and a few other banks who now charge new fees will be banking institutions for the wealthy only. They are weeding out the middle income bracket and feed off the fact that many low income people will not have a place to turn to deposit into an account to pay debts. They don't want the people who are high risk anymore and know the government will back the top 1% at the expense of taxpayers.

..

Nailingit, are you that ignorant to think because I speak of being self reliant, that I got all my info from Beck??? Buddy, I've been living my life of not relying on the government for every little thing since I began paying taxes. I learned my lessons of survival in life from my parents and my grandparents...AND from being a girl scout. The only thing GB ever did was remind the people to make sure they have enough food and a bit of money on the side for any emergency, no matter what size we'd be facing. Good advice as far as I'm concerned. Once GB began his alarmist schpiel...I shut the dude out...eliminated my satellite service and never ventured into his website or FoxNews.

Nailingit, there's a reason why my parents' families survived the Great Depression and comfortably endured the time of WW-II when everyone was ordered to conserve. It's called being resilient and knowing what to look for and how to prepare and prevent the onslaught of issues associated with national crises of any sort. Along with that, anybody who has ever been a scout, they will tell you the same thing...that it's always best to "Be Prepared." That doesn't mean we all need to hunker down in underground bunkers. That's ridiculous...but the conservative thoughts of "a penny saved is a penny earned" "Save for a rainy day" and of course..."Be Prepared," are life lessons many have forgotten about...and now are stuck in the rut, trying to grasp hold of anything to pull them out of that rut, most falling back into the bottom of the pit.

As far as your statement that "Congress is just not getting it," it isn't just Congress, my friend. It's every government entity out there..."Spend it like there's no tomorrow!!!" Maybe the government really thinks 12/21/12 is something to be concerned about. Either that or they're banking on it that most people will agree they need to go out in style...and they might as well do it on a global scale.

ridiculous

goldenoldie — October 13, 2011 at 9:51 a.m. ( | suggest removal


Of course. the basic message of survival appeals to all, as well as being ingrained from birth.

Beck is smart. He assesses the weak and bias minds that follow him, appeals to their most basic instincts, and shows them the way to "self-reliance and prosperity", while sucking millions from those he "educates". What a fraud and a detriment to our country.

goldenoldie @ 9:51- Are you going to purchase any clothes or cups from his latest 1791 clothing line? The time you spend with Glenn is of no consequence to me. You don't have to defend yourself! I thought you previously stated that you heard him speak one time in your life, and that one time was advice concerning food storage and, of course, you never watched him again! It makes no difference. Be proud of whose ideals and philosophy you support. Glenn has some good ideas! And to eliminate your satellite service!?!...I remember that :)). And to shut off the only news source that gives much of your political thinking a platform...well...it's almost unbelievable! ... but good for you on making such a personal and emotional decision.

nailingit — October 13, 2011 at 10:21 a.m. ( | suggest removal


Rick Santorum, former U.S. Senator from Pennsylvania
""These are the same old folks who have been protesting since the Vietnam war ... they really don't curry much favor in my book." --- October 7, 2011 remarks to CNBC

Love this republican forward thinking! At least he must be seeing the older generation as part of the protests!

nailingit — October 13, 2011 at 10:31 a.m. ( | suggest removal


Golden,

Just remember the story of the Ant and the Grasshopper..;]

ELISI — October 13, 2011 at 10:43 a.m. ( | suggest removal


Nailingit, when I make my purchases...no matter what they may be...they have to follow certain criteria. Number one, I don't buy any products online. Two, I don't buy because of who might be promoting the products. Three, affordability of the products must fit within my strict budget. Four, I don't buy just to buy. I must have an actual need before investing in anything and I have no qualms about buying slightly used products as long as they are in perfect condition. Five, binge shopping isn't in my vocabulary.

The first time I'd ever heard about the 1791 line...was in your links you posted. Seems to me you like to read up a lot about the guy. You sure YOU aren't secretly one of Beck's faithful followers??? Oh...and btw, GB hasn't ever gotten a dime from me. I don't believe in "following" a television personality to the point that I would idolize them...

except for Marvin the Martian or Wile E Coyote...but that's when I was a kid.

goldenoldie — October 13, 2011 at 2:35 p.m. ( | suggest removal


ELISI — October 13, 2011 at 10:43 a.m.

ELISI...we know who we're following in that wonderful Aesop's Fable, huh!!!

goldenoldie — October 13, 2011 at 2:36 p.m. ( | suggest removal


"self-serving", "venal", "pampered wannabees", "latchies". sigh...

It's going to be an uphill battle for all of us to bring about equitable change, both at the polls and to those on the streets. The hill becomes steeper when people whose politics are rooted in disinformation, bias and prejudice promote falsehoods and lies to coincide said agenda with current events. I watched some Fox the other day and.....whew! There is some serious kool-aid drinking going on from those that follow these Murdoch dirtbags!

nailingit — October 13, 2011 at 3:22 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Big pot bust in Clark county today. Score one for the good guys and minus one for the deadbeat potheads.

cranky — October 13, 2011 at 3:27 p.m. ( | suggest removal


"Maybe the government really thinks 12/21/12 is something to be concerned about. Either that or they're banking on it that most people will agree they need to go out in style...and they might as well do it on a global scale." Fema trailers to imprison us, and Obama leading us to hell. Is there a conspiracy you don't "latch" onto?!? And in the context of holding the House of Representatives accountable for a jobs bill!!! Whew!

nailingit — October 13, 2011 at 3:34 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Herman for Pres!!!

nailingit — October 13, 2011 at 3:35 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Interesting that they are using the new military training center for a police processing center for the people they're rounding up...isn't it, Nailingit??? Great practice for future needs, you think??? FEMA trailers??? Heck, they don't need FEMA trailers. Haven't even heard that one. Conspiracy??? That's for each individual to decide if it's just hype or fact.

Oh...and the round up today??? Hard to believe people are hearing of foreign nations buying entire blocks of land to start their own "self-contained communities." Heck, they've infiltrated good ol' Clark County but our boys and girls are rounding them up one by one so they no longer have their little money maker.

goldenoldie — October 13, 2011 at 3:53 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Oh Golden you bet I know which one I follow..;]

Have to say I just love those that don't take the time to read what others say, just pick out certain words and criticize.
If they'd bother to have really read what was said they would know. But then again *sigh* we are burden with those that live to criticize anything anyone says that doesn't follow their line of thinking.

Nailingit, those "pampered wannabees" and "latchies" that Dee Little and I were speaking of are the very ones that have no clue as to what the OWS group is really about. They have stepped in to just "be there" and cause trouble.
The "pampered wannabees"and "latchies" are the very ones that got arrested, refused to clear the street, even the main OWS group asked them to move and comply with the police. They didn't so they got what they deserved..jail.
The OWS group isn't there to go against the law (well sort of) just exercising their right to free speech, to be heard peacefully, with no violence, no property damage, no fighting the police, no blocking the flow of traffic etc...they just want to let the elected critters know the American people have had enough and that we are watching with an eagle eye each and everyone of them, be it Democrat, Republican, Independent, Libertarian..we are watching.
At least the people of OWS is doing something instead of sitting on a computer all day and being a "pampered wannabee" and "latchie".

ELISI — October 13, 2011 at 4:15 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Nailingit, another word for latchie can also be construed as a plant...someone who was put there to ruin the face of those brave enough to send the message that we are tired of the double standard...we're tired of double taxation and we want to be treated as equally as those who the government has generously reimbursed with the hard earned tax dollars we all have paid into yet families are having their homes stolen from them by banks with little teeny, tiny loopholes in their contracts...hidden by the mighty bureaucratic verbiage that only an attorney or banker would understand.

goldenoldie — October 13, 2011 at 4:32 p.m. ( | suggest removal


CANADA URGED TO ARREST AND PROSECUTE GEORGE W. BUSH

12 October 2011
AI Index: PRE01/516/2011
Amnesty International today urged Canadian authorities to arrest and either prosecute or extradite former US President George W. Bush for his role in torture, ahead of his expected visit to Canada on 20 October.
“Canada is required by its international obligations to arrest and prosecute former President Bush given his responsibility for crimes under international law including torture,” said Susan Lee, Americas Director at Amnesty International.
“As the US authorities have, so far, failed to bring former President Bush to justice, the international community must step in. A failure by Canada to take action during his visit would violate the UN Convention against Torture and demonstrate contempt for fundamental human rights.”
Amnesty International submitted a memorandum to the Canadian authorities on 21 September 2011 that makes a substantial case for the former president’s legal responsibility for a series of human rights violations.
The violations took place during the CIA's secret detention programme between 2002 and 2009 – and include torture and other cruel, inhuman and degrading-treatment and enforced disappearances.
While President, George W. Bush authorized the use of a number of “enhanced interrogation techniques” against detainees held in the secret CIA program.
The former President later specifically admitted to authorizing the “waterboarding” of several individuals whose subjection to this torture technique has been confirmed.
Detainees were subjected to waterboarding and a range of other “enhanced interrogation techniques” – including being forced to stay for hours in painful positions and sleep deprivation – during the CIA’s secret detention program, set up under then-President Bush’s authorization.
The CIA Inspector General found that Zayn al Abidin Muhammed Husayn (known as Abu Zubaydah) and Khalid Sheikh Mohammed were subjected, between them, to at least 266 applications of waterboarding while in detention between 2002 and 2003.
Amnesty International’s submission also highlights further evidence of torture and other crimes under international law committed against detainees held under US military custody in Guantánamo, Afghanistan and Iraq.
“This is a crucial moment for Canada to demonstrate it is prepared to live up to its commitments and obligations with respect to human rights,” said Susan Lee “Canada has been a leader in efforts to strengthen the international justice system and must now demonstrate that when it comes to accountability for human rights violations, no one and no country is above international law.”

[AP] Another story originating from the "Apple State", Washington, takes place in Vancouver, in which nailingit states, "It's predictable US allies in the "war on terror" would denounce Amnesty International as an organization, and harshly criticize the charges levied at the Bush Administration.

nailingit — October 13, 2011 at 4:47 p.m. ( | suggest removal


"At least the people of OWS is doing something instead of sitting on a computer all day and being a "pampered wannabee" and "latchie"." LOL! Your colors are truly on display today..."elisi"!

God Bless

nailingit — October 13, 2011 at 4:53 p.m. ( | suggest removal


My colors are on display everyday..the red, white and blue is flown everyday at my home.

What, pray tell are yours?

ELISI — October 13, 2011 at 5:13 p.m. ( | suggest removal


nailingit — October 13, 2011 at 4:47 p.m.

I take it you're a little excited about what you have located on the web? Do you believe GWB should be extradited and face those charges? Do you believe there are others who should also face similar charges? Conspiracy theory brewing, eh nailingit???

goldenoldie — October 13, 2011 at 6:18 p.m. ( | suggest removal


nailingit at 3:35,

"Herman for Pres!!!"

Who? Herman Munster - why not? Herman Cain - no way!!

I asked the other day if anyone had gotten around to crunching 9-9-9 for the individual taxpayer. Applying last year's tax rules, minus the working credit, under Cain I would pay tax on a lot higher net income, but would owe "only" about $200 more for income tax. But then I start tacking on the 9% sales tax. Food added about $500. And I got hung up on whether we'll pay 9% more for gas, on top of what they already grab - and based on the headache I had at this point in the exercise, I decided I no longer liked Mr. Cain.

roger — October 13, 2011 at 6:54 p.m. ( | suggest removal


cranky @ 3:27 pm: Oh, if only we had tax revenues from all that weed. Our state would be in the black.

manthou — October 13, 2011 at 6:54 p.m. ( | suggest removal


nailingit: I wish I could keep up with all your interesting avatars!

I miss Sybil. :)

manthou — October 13, 2011 at 6:59 p.m. ( | suggest removal


roger- Laurence O'Donnell (MSNBC) broke down his 999 plan tonite. He comes on a few more times tonight. Check it out...eye opening!

nailingit — October 13, 2011 at 7:02 p.m. ( | suggest removal


manthou...sybil looms closer than you know!

nailingit — October 13, 2011 at 7:04 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Looks like Rep Jim Moeller has said he's coming down to join in on Occupy Vancouver.

roger — October 13, 2011 at 7:05 p.m. ( | suggest removal


And no doubt he will have to enlighten all who will hear his great wisdom on the state of world affairs...

I declare OCCUPY here and now in the Columbian basement. Come and join this discussion and I might develop some respect for our local politicos. But they won't, because they are all too big and important. Thanks, anyway, Columbian for keeping the lights on here...

mangoboy — October 13, 2011 at 8:23 p.m. ( | suggest removal


LOL!!! Herman's brain trust revealed! 999...maybe he thinks he's saying no no no in German!

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/10/13/herman-cain-999-sim-city_n_1008952.html

These Republican candidates!!!!!!! ROTFLMAO!

nailingit — October 13, 2011 at 8:24 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Why do we have the audacity to declare the Columbian Basement to be an OCCUPY zone?

Like the Occupy Americans, We have here deeply held convictions of patriotism and concern for our country and the guts of more than a few who will back up what they say and lay it all on the line if necessary. Like the Occupy Americans, we will not submit our name and address to the authorities as a condition for the freedom of speech. Like the Occupy Americans, we do not believe in endless talk without action. Trolls, one precenters, and major party clones, this does not apply to you, naturally.

mangoboy — October 13, 2011 at 8:45 p.m. ( | suggest removal


"...we do not believe in endless talk without action."

mangoboy last night, with his Occupy Basement movement.

Kindly allow me to ask Genevieve what she thinks about this. Frobert, would you care to pass this her way? Thanks.

Or should I pay more attention to the closing line? "Trolls, one precenters, and major party clones, this does not apply to you, naturally."

roger — October 14, 2011 at 6:24 a.m. ( | suggest removal


Now that's funnier'n heck, aint it?

The city passed a moratorium here a few months back prohibiting a few folks from pooling their resources and growing (up to) 45 plants for medicinal purposes. 'Cuz, you know, that sounds kind of scary.

6,800 plants! WOW!

I'm proud to live in Clark County -- the Cannabis Capitol of the United States! (that was sarcasm, folks. Here's some more).

The photo in the paper shows an officer breaking a door in with a ram. Uh, why? I have a feeling cannabis plants don't flush down the toilet very well. I'm quite certain as soon as the first cop car was spotted the cell phones in the various houses started ringing. I guess the supsects could have all just opened their doors. You know, to minimize the damage associated with having a warrant served?

In another photo, did you notice the supsects are wearing matching P.J.s? Huh. I wonder if that's the organizations "colors." It doesn't appear they were allowed to slip on any footware. Is the task force taking a lesson from TSA?

This bust is sure going to affect somebody's bottom line. I mean, besides the taxpayers in a strapped economy.

Myself, I'd much rather stop spending money on enforcing a draconian law and start reaping some of the potential dollars legalization could very well generate.

Not to mention investigating the medicinal potential this plant has. That schedule I thing sure seems to get in the way of the research, eh?

Seriously, I am trully amazed at the extent of this growing operation. WOW!

http://capndrift.wordpress.com/

Drift — October 14, 2011 at 8:22 a.m. ( | suggest removal


roger — October 14, 2011 at 6:24 a.m.

What am I asking her?

Allen — October 14, 2011 at 6:52 a.m.

Are you talking top 1% or bottom?

frobert — October 14, 2011 at 10:27 a.m. ( | suggest removal


I haven't smoked pot for over 30 years but I know plenty of people that do and could care less. Why this country doesn't give up the time and expense of busting people for pot is beyond me. For cryin' out loud, legalize, tax, and regulate the stuff. The sales tax that would have been collected on this $27M crop alone would have netted Clark Co over $2M plus whatever would be saved to stop this foolishness. Get a clue! There's no use going into how hypocritical it is to single out marijuana.

mrd — October 14, 2011 at 10:38 a.m. ( | suggest removal


That was WWII, Allen -- after the '37 tax act. See _Hemp for Victory_.

One thing to keep in mind, mrd, when one estimates the tax revenue from legalized cannabis; the price will plummet once legalized. I don't deal with the black-market, but I think the going rate is about $320.00 an ounce. The RAND Corp. estimates that would drop to about $20.00.

Still...

Drift — October 14, 2011 at 10:59 a.m. ( | suggest removal


mrd, ever think that maybe..they aren't just singling out marijuana?

Maybe marijuana busts are a stepping stone to bigger more dangerous drug busts?

How many of your friends, family friends, family, co-workers etc do you know that started with marijuana and went to more dangerous drugs?

I was a teen in the later 60's I witnessed 5 friends that went from marijuana to harder drugs, 4 are dead.

My oldest kid watched how one of her closest friends went to meth from marijuana, it all but destroyed this girls life.

Go talk to those that work the ER at any hospital about what they see come in from drug use.

We all know the effects of drinking and driving, what can and has happened to others.. what about drug use and driving?

I bet if one talked to a patrol officer they would tell you how many they have pulled over arrested or ticketed "under the influence" of not only alcohol, but drugs also.

You wouldn't want a.. lets say truck driver driving a fully loaded semi truck bearing down on you high on drugs would you?

ELISI — October 14, 2011 at 11:19 a.m. ( | suggest removal


http://www.politico.com/news/stories/1011/65934.html

Could there be some hope? For change? From the GOP?

nailingit — October 14, 2011 at noon ( | suggest removal


WASHINGTON -- Less than an hour after passing the so-called Protect Life Act to guard the unborn, the House of Representatives passed a bill that the EPA warns will kill thousands of people prematurely.

~If you're pre-born, you're fine, if you're pre-schooled, you're &%^$#&. Conservatives want live babies so they can raise them to be dead soldiers. Pro-life, these people aren't pro-life, they're killing doctors, what kind of pro-life is that? What, they'll do everything they can do save a fetus, but if it grows up to be a doctor they just might have to kill it?~ George Carlin

nailingit — October 14, 2011 at 12:42 p.m. ( | suggest removal


ELISI@11:49

Before I offer the following, allow me to say that I do not condone adolescent drug use, nor irresponsible recreational use in adults.

I also do my homework on the subject of illicit drugs, especially cannabis. I do that in order to speak intelligently when I'm countering statements such as yours above.

Folks here seem to prefer one "show their work." So, in that vein I will offer the following two links in argument. The first relates to your "gateway" statement:

http://healthland.time.com/2010/10/29/marijuna-as-a-gateway-drug-the-myth-that-will-not-die/

This, the second, is in response to your loose driving statement. I say "loose" because you go from cannabis to drugs.

http://www.drugwarfacts.org/cms/Marijuana#Driving

BTW, I seldom drive any more. When I know I must, I plan accordingly. Cannabis isn't the reason I've restricted myself. It's the Vicodin. I won't operate a vehicle while impaired.

You sorta, kinda go off on a tangent with the drugs and driving, don'tcha think?

Drift — October 14, 2011 at 12:58 p.m. ( | suggest removal


frobert @ 10:27,

In the post immediately preceding mine, mango declares the Columbian Basement an Occupy zone, and makes a statement that includes what I cited, that "...we do not believe in endless talk without action."

Considering that we often tend to take a topic and run it into the ground, and after her recent comments that indicate she considers the Occupy Portland crowd all talk and no action, I was curious how she'd react to this statement.

As a follow on, I'm not certain mango was serious when making this statement. My perception at 6:24 a.m. is often somewhat limited. The caffeine hasn't had time to get the mental processes to fully engage.

roger — October 14, 2011 at 1:29 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Allen,

I understand, what I was getting at was there are those that don't stop with just marijuana use, they graduate onto harder more dangerous drugs.

Yeah I agree some teens will get and use no matter what..drugs of any kind, alcohol doesn't matter.

As far what you said about selling, taxing marijuana like cigarettes, they have already put restrictions on cigarettes, where one can and can not smoke will they do the same with the use of marijuana?

If you haven't already figured it out Allen, many times I like to be like a devils advocate and ask questions to make people think things out more thoroughly. Like in the long run, the effects it would have on society in a whole etc.
How many would go from the use of marijuana to harder more dangerous drugs?
Would car accidents and accidents on jobs rise from use?
How much health risk is involved in long term use?
We know with alcohol how it destroys peoples lives, losses of jobs, family, lives etc..will legalizing marijuana take us on the same path?
How much will it cost all of us in the long run?

Take a look at gambling in Oregon, first it started off as a way to bring in tax dollars to help off set the cost of schools was one argument.
Now, Oregon has such a addiction to gambling problem that they now spend the money that should go to the schools for gambling addicts rehab.

I see legalizing marijuana as a no win situation, sooner or later we all will end up paying a price for it.

ELISI — October 14, 2011 at 1:49 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Drift — October 14, 2011 at 12:58 p.m

Thanks for the links, I will check them out later today when I have more time.

ELISI — October 14, 2011 at 1:52 p.m. ( | suggest removal


hmmm....

all of my fb posts have been deleted.

let's hear it for the freedom of the press (to repress, that is)

DeeLittle — October 14, 2011 at 2:36 p.m. ( | suggest removal


"we do not believe in endless talk without action."

Yes, seriously. But action does not necessarily require burning and overturning police cars. Lets pull a White House phrase out, "We are not taking any options off the table."

mangoboy — October 14, 2011 at 2:38 p.m. ( | suggest removal


ELISI — October 14, 2011 at 1:49 p.m.

I see legalization as a win win situation, billions for enforcement and incarceration, billions of U.S. dollars going out of the country, and a lost potential for revenue. If legalized tomorrow it would be less available to youth, and I doubt there would be much if any increase in recreational usage among adults. Prohibition does not, and never has worked for any substance.

frobert — October 14, 2011 at 2:41 p.m. ( | suggest removal


**MANGO**

what annoys me about this 'occupy' drivel is they have no street cred.

what are they risking? they're being taken care of, their diapers are being changed by other ppl, they're fed by others and don't even have to clean their rooms.

the tea party paid their dues. the press & dems saw to that. our very own stellar congressperson called them "jack-booted thugs".

no, these little whiners are just having their stomping temper tantrum in front of cameras this time. gimmie gimmie gimmie. as the song goes "you gotta give me WHAT I WANT". bulllparts.

if they want to actually DO something, let them march their little behinds to the local container-ship offloading site, and protest against goods coming into the country from slave labor (china, n. korea, india, etc). disrupt THAT commerce.

oh, but THAT would require an actual risk. and that's not something spoiled brats are willing to do.

DeeLittle — October 14, 2011 at 2:54 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Dee, would you mind sending me a quick e-mail with some details on your posts being deleted? Maybe I can help you figure out where they went and what happened.

My e-mail address is matt.wastradowski@columbian.com.

Thanks,
Matt

Matt Wastradowski — October 14, 2011 at 3:06 p.m. ( | suggest removal


http://mediamatters.org/iphone/research/201110110016

The few on here who mindlessly judge this movement, are the same ones who promote conservatism, at any cost. They have plenty of company with Fox news.

nailingit — October 14, 2011 at 3:27 p.m. ( | suggest removal


nailingit @ 3:27 PM: I saw that the likes of Romney and Cantor have actually performed a perfect 180 degrees after trashing the Other 99 percent. For those of you on the right side of the swing, it's what you like to call a "Flip Flop."

My guess is that they have been advised (or figured it out themselves) that to trash this most excellent group of tenacious protesters equals political suicide in 2012.

manthou — October 14, 2011 at 4:34 p.m. ( | suggest removal


DeeLittle @ 2:54,

"what annoys me about this 'occupy' drivel is they have no street cred. what are they risking? they're being taken care of, their diapers are being changed by other ppl, they're fed by others and don't even have to clean their rooms."

Amen. And in places like Portland, they're negotiating with the police force and with the mayor. This is the type of movement that, once the Press loses interest, will become fair game for the nighttime comedians.

They need a dose of someone like Philadelphia's Police Commissioner/Mayor Frank Rizzo. Or the first Mayor Daley in Chicago. They'd earn their stripes going up against someone like those guys.

roger — October 14, 2011 at 5:24 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Hey folks, I'm not trying to rumor monger here, but KATU News just reported that in the marijuana sweep investigation, several of those arrested were on welfare.

goldenoldie — October 14, 2011 at 5:38 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Wow. Hopefully some of society's historical ills have had a somewhat "good" trickle down effect. It's as though some of you believe these protests are a joke until there's blood in the streets. Given the lax gun laws we have, let's hope it remains peaceful and then some. The ability to negotiate with authorities to insure civility, go's a long way in my book. This is the type of protest we need.

manthou @ 4:34 Some of GOP "leaders" are trying to include the baggers as part of the protests. I heard Amy Kremer aka leader of the "Tea Party Express" express on TV today, the ONLY thing they might have in common with OWS, is in agreement with the bailouts.

Are you attending occupy Vancouver tomorrow?

nailingit — October 14, 2011 at 5:45 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Reference the earlier conversations on legalizing pot.

The way I figure it, the price would have to be maintained at an artificially high level to gain enough tax revenues to keep Uncle Sam interested. I've no idea what this would be, but certainly much higher than the $20.00 per ounce Drift cited Rand on today.

Once the price is set, the Mexican cartels will undersell. This will really piss Uncle off, and Mexico will be forced to comply with our subsequent renewed interest in eradicating them. (Kind of like when we sprayed their fields with paraquat back in the '70s.)

A win-win situation. The main competition will be our own pot moonshiners.

roger — October 14, 2011 at 5:47 p.m. ( | suggest removal


nailingit @ 5:45,

"It's as though some of you believe these protests are a joke until there's blood in the streets."

I would love to agree that we've become civilized enough to attain "justice for all" through negotiation and peaceful demonstration. Unfortunately, it hasn't happened yet - here or elsewhere in the world. Human greed reinforces the capitalist model, the "haves" control the governments, and they aren't giving it up until made to.

roger — October 14, 2011 at 5:56 p.m. ( | suggest removal


roger- Are you saying peaceful demonstrations haven't worked in the past? Recent memory tells me the Tea Party was quite successful in messaging, not too many casualties, (if you don't count the American people ;)

nailingit — October 14, 2011 at 7:20 p.m. ( | suggest removal


If pot is made legal, people will just grow their own because Uncle Sam will tax the heck out of it like regular cigarettes and the users won't pay the tax. The potheads campaign is that the state would make lots of tax money. They are full of BS, because, all they want is for it to be legalized so they can grow unlimited amounts. Another thing these idiots don't understand. Just because it is legal doesn't mean you can be under the influence anywhere or anytime. The potheads think they will be able to get high on the job or anywhere else. But, since most potheads are deadbeats, they won't have to worry about losing a job. And you can bet the major drug cartels, Mexican, American Mafia, etc. aren't going to let legalization stop them. They will just step up the killing of their competition and business will go on as usual.

cranky — October 14, 2011 at 7:24 p.m. ( | suggest removal


nailingit,

Conceded with the Tea Party example. But they were all older and/or dressed nicely and had haircuts. The police weren't going to get rough with their parents and friends, were they?

roger — October 14, 2011 at 7:33 p.m. ( | suggest removal


cranky,

This is amazing. When I read your postings I start off saying "Yep, he's right there!" But by the time I get to the end, I'm usually just shaking my head in amazement.

Potheads will want to get high on the job, but they're mostly deadbeats without jobs.

You wanna share some of what you're smoking?

I agree that a lot of people will try to grow their own to avoid the tax. But I suspect the amount of work involved will cause most to go back to buying from the state. Planting, weeding, pest prevention, etc, requires knowledge, time and commitment. And that's just a veggie garden - pot growers have to jump through hoops to get the THC levels elevated. Try watching Marijuana Wars or one of the other shows on the extended channels - this isn't just tossing a few seeds out the back door!

roger — October 14, 2011 at 7:44 p.m. ( | suggest removal


> Hey folks, I'm not trying to rumor
> monger here, but KATU News just
> reported that in the marijuana sweep
> investigation, several of those
> arrested were on welfare.

**GASP**

*NO!!!!!!!!!*

DeeLittle — October 14, 2011 at 7:45 p.m. ( | suggest removal


goldie,

The info about welfare popped up on the facebook side too. Also a little tidbit about the houses being rented, and the same name showing up as renter for several of them. Sounds to me like the ones arrested are replaceable nobodies - I wonder if any of the various law enforcement agencies involved will be able to backtrack to someone important and make charges stick?

roger — October 14, 2011 at 7:57 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Allen @ 6:18 p.m., Agreed.

Elisi - There are A LOT of vets who couldn't sleep the night through without getting stoned. Pills don't work anywhere near as well, and usually have a lot more problems associated with long term use. Maybe if our medical and our military reintegration systems were better at what they do this wouldn't be necessary. The Army is catching on with Wounded Warrior, and I've seen TV ads about help for vets. But there are plenty out there who had to get by any way they could because this help wasn't there for them. But don't get between Ol' Sarge and his munchies!!!

roger — October 14, 2011 at 8:09 p.m. ( | suggest removal


roger- Older, nicely dressed? A bunch of 40 and up rednecks screaming about gun rights, dressed up like Minnie Pearl on a bad day, screaming about sending the Prez back to Kenya will concern law enforcement more than most! But no matter. There have been countless peaceful demonstrations that have yielded positive results. The rowdy ones get the headlines. Let's hope things remain peaceful.

nailingit — October 14, 2011 at 8:10 p.m. ( | suggest removal


KANSAS CITY, Mo. — Kansas City's Catholic bishop has become the highest-ranking U.S. Catholic official indicted on a charge of failing to protect children after he and his diocese waited five months to tell police about hundreds of images of child pornography discovered on a priest's computer, officials said Friday.

nailingit — October 14, 2011 at 8:16 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Not to be a ... rumor monger or anything.

nailingit — October 14, 2011 at 8:17 p.m. ( | suggest removal


"protest against goods coming into the country from slave labor (china, n. korea, india, etc). disrupt THAT commerce."

That is a good point, DeeLittle, there has to be an evolution in the concept of Trade, from Free Trade to Fair Trade, so instead of just boycotting certain countries, we can fine tune it and recognize and reward companies within those countries like China that respect and fairly compensate their employees by purchasing their products as a second option to Made in America products. Social media could help this process but the Chinese Government censures everything. And any kind of workers rights activists there are probably dealt with very severely. But in all honesty I don't think we need all the stuff they are selling us anyway. There is a more fundamental problem which is materialism and over consumption.

mangoboy — October 14, 2011 at 8:18 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Yo, Cranky, I'll not pay your toll, thank you. Get back under your bridge afore you trip over your...

Oh, and a dime to donuts those folks working those grows were under duress by the head cheese. You think those folks saw any of those "millions"? Nah.

That's what the "war" does for us, boys and girls, and oh, trolls.

Drift — October 14, 2011 at 8:33 p.m. ( | suggest removal


nailingit @5:45 PM: I am scheduled to attend an all-day unpaid training with a couple hundred other spoiled, overpaid and entitled state employees and teachers tomorrow at Vancouver SD. Soooooo, my lucky spouse is going.

If they are still out there with their energy and garbage bags at 4, I'll join in. :)

manthou — October 14, 2011 at 8:33 p.m. ( | suggest removal


"if i'm driving and i see a bike coming up behind me at 100 mph, *you're* the one *i'm* looking out for.

speaking as a native of los angeles, you hafta be aware of everything in the 'bubble' around your car, expect somebody to do something stupid and have plans for evasion. that's simply normal driving in LA.

DeeLittle March 30, 2011 at 3:11 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal | Ignore Use

.....................................

ELSIE

found myself in the south during that time.

civil rights marches, etc.

i have the dubious honor of being threatened by the KKK, but i'm nothing (and neither are these 60's wannabe's) compared to the REAL marchers, those with dr. king in mississippi, georgia, alabama....

these pampered wannabe's seem so ... self-serving and venal compared to them.

DeeLittle — October 13, 2011 at 3:12 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal | Ignore User )

You seem to get around quite a bit!!!

nailingit — October 14, 2011 at 8:46 p.m. ( | suggest removal


manthou- Good luck tomorrow. I think I'll check it out!

nailingit — October 14, 2011 at 8:48 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Allen — October 14, 2011 at 6:02 p.m

No arguing about this Allen, just throwing out some what if's and questions, seeing what others think about it.

How many out there across the US driving under the influence?
No idea, if I had to guess..probably thousands..

As far as 60 to 80% in prison for pot? Hmm I'd check on those percentage. Most that are busted (the average pot buyer, small seller) are turned loose or spend very little time in jail. The ones in prison are usually are the big guys. It's the big wigs the LEO are after, not the penny ante guys. But in order to get to the big wigs, they have to arrest the small guy.

If it becomes legal, some will grow their own or try. There will still be the cartels, they will sell and still make money.

You are very correct about some people have/do abuse alcohol and pot, drugs whatever. That will never change legal or not.

Allen as far as I know, no one has ODed on pot, car accidents and accidents on the jobs due to slower reactions.. yes.

I can't say anything about those that use pot for medical reason, such as glaucoma, cancer etc. If it helps them so be it. I know how it helped my dad when he was on chemo for cancer, without it he could not eat and keep anything down.

ELISI — October 14, 2011 at 9:05 p.m. ( | suggest removal


roger — October 14, 2011 at 8:09 p.m

I know all to well..I was a volunteer at a Veterans Hospital for 2 yrs during Vietnam.

ELISI — October 14, 2011 at 9:08 p.m. ( | suggest removal


DeeLittle, you always manage to bring a smile to my face with your posts. And *GASP...* Yes!

Keep smilin' my friend.

goldenoldie — October 15, 2011 at 6:24 a.m. ( | suggest removal


Roger -- October 14, 2011 at 7:57 p.m.:

I'm wondering how many of them will be facing criminal charges of Welfare Fraud and Identity Theft? Seems they had pretty nice cars while bilking the state system and breaking the law...and they managed to keep their utility bills paid to boot. I'm also wondering how many are here legally under their real name and their own true identity. This is an issue I believe has been grossly neglected with anybody who has been able to come over on the "boat" or cross our borders without having to undergo the process of criminal history background checks which includes who they were affiliated with.

I have a feeling that the sting operation stem much further than 6800 pot plants, what properties were seized, who was arrested and what contraband was found. I don't mean to sound prejudiced and I know it will to whoever decides they want to make a big stink, but when the "boat people" were allowed here with diplomatic immunity, this *riff raff* is exactly what most people feared would be hiding amongst those who had good intentions when coming to the US to become good citizens. THIS is why I believe the system needs to become more stringent on who they allow through our borders.

..

goldenoldie — October 15, 2011 at 6:41 a.m. ( | suggest removal


When they opened the borders to allow anybody into Greece without having to go through a checkpoint to ensure the person was able to freely enter, that was the number one issue which slammed Greece and all but destroyed their economy. Is that what we want here to finish our nation off? Greece has lost their identity. Violence has quadrupled in the country ever since they joined the European Union. Gangs were entering very small villages, pilfering through...stealing whatever they wanted to steal, attacking seniors and robbing them of anything they could carry off...drug addiction and drug-related crimes went through the roof. Policing cannot keep up with the problems plaguing Greece. Sound familiar? When visiting Greece, you'll be lucky to find souvenirs which were actually made in Greece. Anybody care to make a guess where most of the souvenirs are coming from now??? Here's a hint - Most of the products in the stores here in the US come from the same location.

Some people believe there's a New World Order taking shape. I perceive it as a *New World DISorder*...and it isn't getting better, folks. We can all blame the politicians on the side we do not support, but the facts speak for themselves. Work on the betterment of your own life and don't get caught up in the BS of political gerrymandering and partisan bashing. Stand up for what you believe in...but know just why you believe in what you do. The folks with "Occupy ....(fill in the blank)" who have their hearts in it...the ones who know why they are standing up against Corporatocracy must share with everyone. It cannot be construed as just a general assembly of whiners complaining about their have nots...rather...standing up to stop the unfairness of preferential treatment based upon your wealth.

If you really want to make a statement, do the homework and vote accordingly...and like another member of the commenting forum group has said in the past - don't make your decisions based on emotions. Is it correct to vote out all incumbents this year? Is that the solution or is it just metastasizing the current issue we are facing?

Think long and hard, folks. A mind is a terrible thing to waste. Use it while you still have it...

and be absolutely sure in your decisions come election time.

goldenoldie — October 15, 2011 at 6:47 a.m. ( | suggest removal


http://portlandtribune.com/news/story.php?story_id=131845396334491700

$10,500,000.00 budget shortfall AFTER the bridge across the Willamette is completed???

Is this what we're facing with the Columbia River Crossing and the BRT improvements requested by C-Tran as well??? Not enough money in the budget to finish what they started??? I still can't figure out how people can support such "improvements" if there's not enough money for the projects to begin with. Has common sense gone down the drain when it comes to our fearless leaders and the decisions they've been making lately?

goldenoldie — October 15, 2011 at 6:56 a.m. ( | suggest removal


"If you really want to make a statement, do the homework and vote accordingly..."

You should read the article concerning Obama's fundraising. Pay attention to how many times you hear the size of a candidate's warchest mentioned in the coming year. Politicians are all about the money. If you think the ballot box is going to change that, you're dreaming. The urge to get everyone out to vote has morphed into leaders seeing tacit approval of a very corrupt and dysfunctional system. It's like lipstick on a pig.

The system, as is, needs to be destroyed and replaced and it's not going to go willingly.

mrd — October 15, 2011 at 7:07 a.m. ( | suggest removal


Borders are becoming irrelevant due to globalization and the technology to transcend borders, which could be a good thing. I respect the principles the U.S. stands by, at least in word, but time has a way of moving on. I consider myself first and formost a member of the world community, which is connected by the WWW, the history and evolution of knowledge, and spiritually. Physically, connected by a global network of communities that live in harmony within their environments. But the enlightened world community has no desire to force itself on anyone, because diversity is one of the core beliefs. The best we can hope for is coexistence, while continue to advocate for universal respect for humanity. I know this sounds wordy but in reality its very simple.

http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2011/10/11/the_myth_of_american_exceptionalism

mangoboy — October 15, 2011 at 7:16 a.m. ( | suggest removal


Good morning, Allen. Regarding your post at 7:07am, do you know what the political affiliations were for Lee Harvey Oswald, James Earl Ray, Timothy McVeigh and Ted Kaczynski? Can you really connect the mindset of those to their political affiliations?

Sorry Allen, I felt your comment was not called for. Harold Camping is one of those labeled extreme minded...and that's putting it mildly.

goldenoldie — October 15, 2011 at 7:39 a.m. ( | suggest removal


mrd — October 15, 2011 at 7:07 a.m.

Good point, MRD. All the more reason for each and every one of us to focus on our own situation and capitalize on making that better.

..

Mango, you speak of a utopian society which sounds good and honestly, I wouldn't have any qualms about accepting life in such a society, but you see my friend...diversity comes at a price and many are not willing to accept such diversity. As long as there's dissension amongst the masses, that utopian society will only be in designated communities with strict rules manifesting their success as long as the rules are upheld.

goldenoldie — October 15, 2011 at 7:44 a.m. ( | suggest removal


Allen — October 15, 2011 at 7:07 a.m.

Pastor Fred Phelps believes that our current President is the Antichrist, and believes that God is punishing us because we are accepting of homosexuality. Guess what party HE belongs to?

frobert — October 15, 2011 at 8:17 a.m. ( | suggest removal


Utopia is only a fleeting vision and is mostly an aspiration. There is no heaven on earth. And living in a walled off community from the outside world is kind of self defeating also. We have basic rules of law here that are good, but improvement is needed in those laws which oppress/repress the poor, civil liberties and respect for human life. Notice how recently the Iranians tried to contract with the Mexican Mafia to kill the Saudi Ambassador. Not saying he doesn't deserve it for other reasons... but look what keeping drugs illegal does to empower drug cartels. They segway into all kinds of other mischief.

mangoboy — October 15, 2011 at 8:38 a.m. ( | suggest removal


Allen- Phelps is Baptist.

nailingit — October 15, 2011 at 8:39 a.m. ( | suggest removal


goldie @ 6:56,

Well, they've ID'd one source of funding.

"The City Council has already identified a potential source for approximately $5.4 million of the remaining needed funds in the city’s transportation system development charges assessed against property owners in the Innovation Quadrant planning district approved by the council in July."

Wonder if we'll see the same thing happen here in Vancouver with the C-Tran projects?

roger — October 15, 2011 at 8:57 a.m. ( | suggest removal


nailingit

Phelps is a democrat.

frobert — October 15, 2011 at 9:02 a.m. ( | suggest removal


Phelps describes himself as an Old School Baptist, and states that he holds to all five points of Calvinism.[21] Phelps particularly highlights John Calvin's doctrine of unconditional election, the belief that God has elected certain people for salvation before birth, and limited atonement, the belief that Christ only died for the elect, and condemns those who believe otherwise.[22] Despite Phelps' claims of being a Primitive Baptist, he was ordained by a Southern Baptist church and is rejected and generally condemned by Primitive Baptists.[23]

Barack Obama
Phelps believes that President Barack Obama is the Antichrist and that he will form an Unholy Trinity with the Catholic Church and Satan.[43]

Opposition to Al Gore, Bill Clinton, and Hillary Rodham Clinton
During the 1992 presidential campaign, Phelps criticized Hillary Rodham Clinton during a speech he gave endorsing Bill Clinton's presidential campaign at the University of Kansas on October 14, 1992. In 1996 Phelps and the Westboro church opposed Clinton's re-election because of the administration's support for gay rights. The entire Westboro congregation picketed a 1997 inaugural ball,[39] denouncing Vice President Al Gore as a "famous fag pimp."[40] In 1998, Westboro picketed the funeral of Gore's father, screaming vulgarities at Gore and telling him, "your dad's in Hell."[40] Source Wikipedia

nailingit — October 15, 2011 at 9:24 a.m. ( | suggest removal


nailingit

Yes, and he is a democrat.

frobert — October 15, 2011 at 9:27 a.m. ( | suggest removal


It's time to start looking at taxing some or all of the churches. They've gone far beyond being the spiritual centers that merited tax exempt status. These are little more than PACs wearing the guise of a religion.

roger — October 15, 2011 at 9:28 a.m. ( | suggest removal


roger @ 9:28...Sometimes we disagree, but you nailed it. Well stated.

nailingit — October 15, 2011 at 9:56 a.m. ( | suggest removal


Roger and Allen,

Jefferson wrote in the 1st Amendment (drew a line for the separation of church and state)

If we are to have separation of church and state, we can not tax the church.
If we begin to tax the church, then the government will then start to regulate (like they do everything else) the church and that is NOT what the founders wanted. This is the very reason why the people fled France during the Huguenot Wars and why the people fled England. Look at the mess that went on for years in Ireland and still does in some areas.

Our ancestors fled to this country to have the freedom to worship in the church of their choosing and the way they so chose.
Would either of you want the government telling you, you HAVE to go to church and it would be the church they chose and worship the way they tell you too? Another thing the king of England was the head of the church, which meant, you worshiped him. Want to spend your life worshiping a president like he is a god?

Not me.

ELISI — October 15, 2011 at 10:09 a.m. ( | suggest removal


LOL!

nailingit — October 15, 2011 at 10:16 a.m. ( | suggest removal


Lou Brancaccio, if you're monitoring the Whine Cellar this morning, I just wanted to say I enjoyed your Press Talk evaluation of the combination of Tea Partiers and Occupiers. Your idea of the "Squeeze" sounds like something we all need...

Hugs!!! "AIR HUGS FOR EVERYONE!!!"

Keep smilin'!!!

goldenoldie — October 15, 2011 at 10:32 a.m. ( | suggest removal


Elisi,

I'm all in favor of people being allowed to worship their god as they please (within limits, anyhow). I've always considered religion a private matter; something that should be shared by people of similar beliefs. What I am totally against is people saying "my church believes such and such, and I want everyone around me to practice the same." Fundamentalist Muslims and Christians are both guilty of this. And when they start using their church to push an agenda, then to me they're no longer within the bounds of practicing religious freedom and should not be given the protected status (or whatever) we've historically given churches.

roger — October 15, 2011 at 10:47 a.m. ( | suggest removal


Well Folks, it was reported the other day that our new property valuation reports would be coming in for next year's taxes. Our home's value dropped yet another $5,000. Did yours??? I see that even more underwater mortgages will be sinking even deeper yet. So much for an improvement in the economy, huh!

If you want to know and you haven't received your notice yet, you can go on the Clark County website and select "Property Information Center."

goldenoldie — October 15, 2011 at 10:57 a.m. ( | suggest removal


TACOMA, Wash. (AP) -- Washington Gov. Chris Gregoire says the shortage of apple pickers in the nation's top apple-producing state is dire. The News Tribune reports that in the Wenatchee Valley apple growers have posted help-wanted signs across the countryside. For the first time in years, growers have also launched a radio campaign, offering up to $120 to $150 dollars per day. Gregoire says ads have attracted few takers. She criticized anti-illegal-immigration rhetoric prevalent in Washington, D.C., saying Congress should instead be focused on ways to get more foreign workers to help with harvesting.

Excuse me? Aren't there unemployed people in this state that would like to make what they're offering? Instead of going to Wash DC to snivel about "anti-illegal-immigration rhetoric" I'd think our Governor would do something useful, like work with the growers to bring Wash State people in who are currently collecting unemployment. And I suspect there would be plenty of takers, especially if there benefit period starts over once the season concludes.

roger — October 15, 2011 at 11:10 a.m. ( | suggest removal


Yeah that pastor is pretty bad, but it's conservatives that are REALLY the bad guys! Just read what they did in Boston. Those stingy, heartless creeps! Wonder why the media didn't pick up on this??? Any ideas nailingit?

The Greater Boston Food Bank intended to have a fundraising event in Boston’s Dewey Square over the weekend of the 14th of October. It was to be called the “Greenway Mobile Food Fest” and was supposed to help raise funds to feed the poor and needy. However, due to the tantrums being thrown by the Occupy Boston protestors, the event had to be canceled.

Despite the selfishness of these pointless, clueless protesters, though, conservative bloggers stepped in and raised over $3,000 for the food bank. An important question is, where is the media on this story? Isn’t this a perfect sort of human-interest story that media types usually love?
The media should love this. It’s got clueless, uninformed, cretins hurting an organization that helps feed the needy. It has a more caring group rising to the challenge to help replace those lost donations. Perfect story, right?
Ah, except that it is conservatives in the role of good guy and the Old Media can’t have that, now can they?
Now, the anti-capitalists of the so-called “Occupy” events pretend that they are for the downtrodden, the low man on the totem pole, but in Boston the Occupy-Whatevers were more interested in their tantrums than in actually helping anyone. So, the food bank and the small-business festival associated with it lost out to those selfish whiners that claim to be for “the little man.” Nice, eh?
Conservatives to the Rescue
Once Brandon Kiser of The Right Sphere found out about the loss the food bank was about to suffer at the hands of the Occupy-Whatevers, he sprang into action asking his readers and friends to donate to the food bank to help it make up at least some of the donations it was going to lose because of the protest.
Kiser was shocked and gratified when his efforts and those of his conservative friends raised $3,700 for the food bank. And more will be raised as Kiser turned the donating over straight to the Greater Boston Food Bank. See more here: [http://biggovernment.com/wthuston/2011/10/15/occupyboston-ruins-food-bank-fundraiser-conservatives-step-in-with-3700-fund-drive/][1]

[1]: http://biggovernment.com/wthuston/2011/10/15/occupyboston-ruins-food-bank-fundraiser-conservatives-step-in-with-3700-fund-drive/

scotty — October 15, 2011 at 11:18 a.m. ( | suggest removal


goldie,

Mine dropped too, but their figure is still way above actual market value - even for a year ago when they set the new valuation. And I'll bet the taxes will go up. Mr. Van Nortwick explained why months ago (before the facebook split, if my memory is good).

There's plenty of info out there that says our homes are still over-valued, and that they'll continue to drop anywhere from another 10% to all the way back to the $120K average that we had back in the early '90s. If true, people will walk in higher numbers.

roger — October 15, 2011 at 11:24 a.m. ( | suggest removal


roger — October 15, 2011 at 10:47 a.m

When you put it that way I totally agree..if we have separation of church and state, religion should stay out of politics and politics out of religion.

I posted this earlier this week..

Ok then. You want religion out of politics? Then keep politics out of the churches!

DOJ: Feds Can Tell Church Who Its Ministers Will Be

http://cnsnews.com/blog/terence-p-jeffrey/doj-feds-can-tell-church-who-its-ministers-will-be

ELISI — October 15, 2011 at 11:28 a.m. ( | suggest removal


scotty,

Good point. We've politicized everything; it's either leftist liberals or right wing conservatives. There's apparently no room in the middle for the rest of us.

roger — October 15, 2011 at 11:28 a.m. ( | suggest removal


Elisi,

Interesting article. Is the school receiving any sort of government funding? If not, then I agree DOJ should stay out. But if they are, then wouldn't they subject themselves to the same laws as any other school? To include compliance with the Americans With Disabilities Act, as is being argued here.

roger — October 15, 2011 at 11:36 a.m. ( | suggest removal


Elisi,

Here's a link to an in depth look at the case. I only checked a couple of the documents posted, but found the 6th Court opinion fairly interesting. It seems the teacher was granted a year medical leave of absence, but then something changed and led to this case. And it seems she was dismissed for taking the case to court - apparently a Lutheran rule of some sort frowns on this. It's hard to say who side is right here - if either.

roger — October 15, 2011 at noon ( | suggest removal


If anyone attends Occupy Vancouver please report in the basement. My plans to attend were thwarted with family obligation.

roger-Did you click scotty's link?

ANDREW BREITBART's WEBSITE! LOL!!! scotty my boy, you put too much sugar in your kool-aid this morning.

nailingit — October 15, 2011 at 12:08 p.m. ( | suggest removal


roger — October 15, 2011 at 11:10 a.m. Try that work for one day, then report back on how do you like them apples.

mangoboy — October 15, 2011 at 12:15 p.m. ( | suggest removal


mangoboy,

I picked spinach in Avondale AZ back in '76 - made it a day, and then spent two days on my back. This can't be that bad!!

roger — October 15, 2011 at 12:51 p.m. ( | suggest removal


10-4 Roger, at least you tried!

Scotty,

Occupy protest is a statement of opposition to our currently configured system that makes Food Banks increasingly necessary. Its a warning sign to the lawmakers in Washington that things have to change.

mangoboy — October 15, 2011 at 1:02 p.m. ( | suggest removal


anybody down there to protest? Anyone spotted AlleyCat yet?

luvithere — October 15, 2011 at 3 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Oh boy - looks like Fast and Furious had a predecessor - Wide Receiver.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/earlier-atf-gun-operation-wide-receiver-used-same-tactics-as-fast-and-furious/2011/10/06/gIQAuRHIRL_story.html

Time to call Ollie North out of retirement so he can teach these BATF clowns how to run a real arms smuggling operation?

And will the Repubs want to demonize Atty General Gonzalez for Wide Receiver, which happened on his watch? Or maybe even try to find out what Pres Bush or his penguin sidekick knew?

Nope - instead they'll change their attack on Atty General Holder. That scoundrel actually lied to Congress!!! Maybe he and Roger Clemons can share a jail cell.

roger — October 15, 2011 at 3:03 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Not certain of the actual facts, but this video makes it look like NYPD arrested some protesters for going to a CitiBank and trying to close their accounts.

http://gothamist.com/2011/10/15/reports_at_least_20_occupy_wall_str.php

roger — October 15, 2011 at 4:17 p.m. ( | suggest removal


It was surprising to me the age of the folks at the rally. The majority were 50 and up.

There were 2 or 3 speakers that went over the top with unrealistic demands, most related to government assistance for everything for everyone cradle to grave, which, while a nicety, simply won't happen. The US isn't that type of society. For the most part, individually we are as selfish as these corporations. As taxpayers, many resent seeing public workers having decent paying jobs with good benefits. I can't imagine, as a society, the people in this country wanting to see (and pay for) the same good jobs for everyone. We'd rather save fifty cents per pound on tomatoes rather than pay someone a decent wage with healthy working conditions and benefits to pick them. Even if stores would market such tomatoes, for example, that were picked by people receiving decent pay, the imported ones from Mexico, being cheaper, would sell better. Don't know, but I feel that's the case.

The speakers were from various backgrounds. A young vet, an old vet, a woman with two doctorate degrees, a teacher.... Generally, they condemned corporate greed and politicians catering to their rich donors rather than Main St type issues.

If this movement does grow, and I hope it does, perhaps something will change. But, as with the case of Obama, I'm not into hope & change anymore. Been there, done that. We've got to get our leaders by the you-know-whats to get their hearts & minds to follow.

All in all, a very, very, well behaved crowd.

mrd — October 15, 2011 at 4:20 p.m. ( | suggest removal


This morning while at the barber shop, I talked to a guy whose dad is a captain in the Portland police force. He said that most of the people who have been protesting are mostly homeless and panhandlers. They don't even know what the whole thing is about. It just gives them something to do while waiting for their next handout. I'll make book that most are democrats and don't want a job as long as the rest of us support them.

cranky — October 15, 2011 at 4:25 p.m. ( | suggest removal


And here's the New York Observer's account of the arrests - they seem to be the source cited in other blogs.

http://www.observer.com/2011/10/occupy-wall-street-run-on-citibank-ends-in-arrests/

roger — October 15, 2011 at 4:34 p.m. ( | suggest removal


A most erudite observation, cranky.

Actually, my oldest hangs out downtown. He made a similar comment - that it's hard to tell the protesters from the usual homeless crowd down there. He says the main difference is the homeless want money and don't beat on annoying drums.

But why Democrats? Why not CEOs of major corporations - don't they also feel entitled to handouts, bailouts, tax exemptions, etc?

roger — October 15, 2011 at 4:39 p.m. ( | suggest removal


nice try Cranky, nice try. I rather believe mrd's first hand account.

luvithere — October 15, 2011 at 4:54 p.m. ( | suggest removal


There were 2 or 3 speakers that went over the top with unrealistic demands...(MRD)

An active process for change has to first brainstorm, then filter through and prioritize from a list, And decide what has the greatest chance of success, and what will have the biggest impact. The important thing is people have stood up and said enough is enough.
The big question is where is the focus and direction? This has the danger of splitting the democratic party, just as the TeaParty has split the Republican party. So unless the movement brings in moderate voices from both sides, it could fizzle.

mangoboy — October 15, 2011 at 5:32 p.m. ( | suggest removal


So if we have the polarized dems and reps, add in the splintering effect of the Tea Party and the Occupy Movement, there might never be a better time to "occupy" the middle ground.

mangoboy — October 15, 2011 at 6:11 p.m. ( | suggest removal


mango-

the spliting issue is a great thought-I never considered that. If done, I think you're on to something. I now have egg on my face as I have derided the teabaggers. No more. Actually , the general thrust of each movement is similiar. Squeeze it (per Lou)? I think that's almost appropriate. Polarization = gridlock. Need I say more? Sad to say, you can't move the middle from the middle. The middle is moved by elements from the far left & right, not from the middle itself. If we want to move the political spectrum one way or the other, we must do it from outside the middle. The ballot box or thru the system won't do it. It'll take much, much more than that. Gotta bring 'em down!

mrd — October 15, 2011 at 7:24 p.m. ( | suggest removal



The99PercentDeclaration
Search this site
Ten Steps To Non-Violent Revolution
A Declaration- **Please attend the NYC General Assembly on 10-15-11 to vote on the plan of action to elect a NATIONAL GENERAL ASSEMBLY!!
Resolution for the General Assembly of NYC to Elect an Executive Committee on October 15, 2011
The Steps to Non-Violent Revolution and the Convening of a National General Assembly
Who are we?
A Declaration- **Please attend the NYC General Assembly on 10-15-11 to vote on the plan of action to elect a NATIONAL GENERAL ASSEMBLY!!

WHEREAS THE FIRST AMENDMENT TO THE UNITED STATES CONSTITUTION PROVIDES:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

BE IT RESOLVED THAT:

WE, THE NINETY-NINE PERCENT OF THE PEOPLE of the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, in order to form a more perfect Union, by, for and of the PEOPLE, shall elect and convene a NATIONAL GENERAL ASSEMBLY to meet beginning on July 4, 2012 in the City Of Philadelphia.

I. Election of Delegates:

The People, consisting of all United States citizens who have reached the age of 18, regardless of party affiliation and voter registration status, shall elect Two Delegates, one male and one female, by direct vote, from each of the existing 435 Congressional Districts to represent the People at the NATIONAL GENERAL ASSEMBLY in Philadelphia convening on July 4, 2012. The office of Delegate shall be open to all United States citizens who have reached the age of 18. Executive Committees, elected by local General Assemblies from all over the United States, shall organize, coordinate and fund this national election by direct democratic voting. The Executive Committees shall operate similarly to the original Committees of Correspondence during the first American Revolution.

II. Meeting of the National General Assembly and Deliberation:

At the NATIONAL GENERAL ASSEMBLY, the 870 Delegates shall set forth, consider and vote upon a PETITION OF GRIEVANCES to be submitted to all members of Congress, The Supreme Court and President and each of the political candidates running in the nationwide Congressional and Presidential election in November 2012.

Part 1

nailingit — October 15, 2011 at 9:03 p.m. ( | suggest removal


III. Proposed Petition for the Redress of Grievances:

This PETITION OF GRIEVANCES shall be non-partisan and address the critical issues now confronting the People of the United States and will be deliberated and voted upon by the 870 Delegates in consultation with the 99%.

The final version of the PETITION OF GRIEVANCES voted upon by the Delegates MAY or MAY NOT include the following issues:

1. Implementing an immediate ban on all private contributions of money and gifts, to all politicians in federal office, from Individuals, Corporations, Political Action Committees, Super Political Action Committees, Lobbyists, Unions and all other private sources of money to be replaced by the fair and equal public financing of all federal political campaigns. We REJECT the concept that money is equal to free speech because if that were so, then only the wealthiest would have a voice. These actions must be taken because it has become clear that politicians in the United States cannot regulate themselves and have become the exclusive representatives of corporations, unions and the very wealthy who spend vast sums of money on political campaigns to influence the candidates’ decisions and ensure their reelection year after year.

2. The immediate reversal of the outrageous holding in the "Citizens United" case by the Supreme Court, which equates the payment of money by corporations to politicians with free speech.

3. Prohibiting all public officials and their immediate family members, whether elected or appointed from EVER being employed by any corporation they regulate while in office.

4. A complete lifetime ban on accepting all gifts, services, money, directly or indirectly, to any elected or appointed officials or their immediate family members, from any person, corporation, union or other entity that the public official was charged to regulate while in office.

Part 2

nailingit — October 15, 2011 at 9:06 p.m. ( | suggest removal


5. A complete reformation of the United States Tax Code to require ALL citizens to pay a fair share of a progressive, graduated income tax by eliminating loopholes, unfair tax breaks, exemptions and deductions, subsidies (e.g. oil, gas and farm) and ending all other methods of evading taxes. The current system of taxation favors the wealthiest Americans, many of who pay fewer taxes to the United States Treasury than citizens who earn much less and pay a much higher percentage of income in taxes to the United States Treasury.

6. Medicare for all American citizens adjusted by a means test (i.e. citizens who can afford it will opt-out of Medicare and pay their own health insurance or opt-in and pay a means tested Medicare premium). The Medicaid program, fraught with corruption and fraud, will be eliminated except for the purpose of providing emergency room care to indigent non-citizens who will not be covered by Medicare-for-all.

7. Passage of a balanced budget amendment to the United States Constitution and an amendment to eliminate the Electoral College so that the President of the United States will be elected by the popular vote.

8. Adoption of an immediate plan to reduce the national debt to a sustainable percentage of GDP by 2020.

9. Passage of a comprehensive job and job-training bill to employ our citizens in jobs that are available with specialized training and by putting People to work tomorrow by repairing America's crumbling infrastructure.

10. Student loan debt relief. Our young People and students are more than $830 billion in debt from education loans alone. Payment and interest on these debts should be deferred for periods of unemployment and the principal reduced using a corporate tax surcharge and by extending the age to collect social security from 65 to 70. Education is a national security issue and it protects our future.

11. Immediate passage of the Dream Act and comprehensive immigration and border security reform including offering visas, lawful permanent resident status and citizenship to the world’s brightest People to come and work in our industries and schools.

12. Recalling all military personnel at all non-essential bases and refocusing national defense goals to address threats posed by the geopolitics of the 21st century, terrorism and limiting the large scale deployment of military forces to instances where Congressional approval has been granted to counter the Military Industrial Complex's goal of perpetual war for profit.

Part 3

nailingit — October 15, 2011 at 9:12 p.m. ( | suggest removal


"private sources of money to be replaced by the fair and equal public financing of all federal political campaigns."

There is a big, big, problem here. How do you define eligibility for these Federal Funds? Polling Data? A committee? No felony record, such as selling pot?

mangoboy — October 15, 2011 at 9:19 p.m. ( | suggest removal


13. Mandating new educational goals to train the American public to perform jobs in a 21st Century economy, particularly in the areas of technology and green energy, taking into consideration the redundancy caused by technology and the inexpensive cost of labor in China, India and other countries and paying our teachers a salary that is competitive with the private sector.

14. Subject to the elimination of corporate tax loopholes and exploited exemptions and deductions stated above, offering tax incentives to businesses to reconstruct the manufacturing capacity of the United States and reinstitution of the Works Progress Administration and Civilian Conservation Corps and other emergency governmental agencies required to create new public works projects to provide jobs to the 46 million People living in poverty, the 9.1% unemployed and 10% underemployed.

15. Implementing immediate legislation to encourage China and our other trading partners to end currency manipulation or impose a consumption tax on goods that those countries export to the United States calculated by comparing the fair market value of the currency to the manipulated valuation.

16. Immediate reenactment of the Glass-Steagall Act and increased regulation of Wall Street by the SEC, FINRA and NASD, and the commencement of a Justice Department criminal investigations into the Securities and Banking industries pertaining to the collapse of markets and financial firm failures in 2007-2008.

nailingit — October 15, 2011 at 9:19 p.m. ( | suggest removal


17. Adoption of President Clinton’s plan to end the mortgage crisis and instead of continuing to lower interest rates for loans to banks who are refusing to loan to small businesses and consumers, have the Federal Reserve buy up all underwater or foreclosed mortgages and refinance the these debt at 1% or less to be managed by Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac since 1% or less is the interest rate the Federal Reserve loans to the banks directly who only hoard the cash rather than loan it to the People.

18. An immediate one year freeze on all foreclosures to be reviewed by an independent special task force appointed by Congress and the Executive Branch to determine, on a case by case basis, whether foreclosure proceedings should continue based on the circumstances of each homeowner.

19. Subject to the above ban on money and gifts in politics, additional campaign finance reform requiring free air time and public campaign finances to all candidates who obtain sufficient petition signatures and/or votes to participate in the primaries and/or electoral process, shortening the campaign season and allow voting on weekends and holidays. Voting must be accessible to all citizens for democracy to work.

20. An immediate withdrawal of all troops from Iraq and Afghanistan and a substantial increase in the amount of funding needed for veteran job placement and the treatment of the physical and emotional injuries sustained by veterans in these wars. Our veterans are committing suicide at an unprecedented rate and we must help now.

BE IT FURTHER RESOLVLED that IF the PETITION OF GRIEVANCES approved by the 870 Delegates of the NATIONAL GENERAL ASSEMBLY in consultation with the PEOPLE, are not acted upon and implemented to the satisfaction of the Delegates of the NATIONAL GENERAL ASSEMBLY within ONE YEAR of presentment of the PETITION OF GRIEVANCES to the government, said Delegates shall begin to organize a THIRD INDEPENDENT POLITICAL PARTY to run candidates in the mid-term election of 2014.

★THE NINETY-NINE PERCENT★

nailingit — October 15, 2011 at 9:23 p.m. ( | suggest removal


7) The worlds brightest people? Why not just genetically engineer them here? What about character, are we just assuming that comes with being one of the worlds brightest?

mangoboy — October 15, 2011 at 9:27 p.m. ( | suggest removal


https://sites.google.com/site/the99percentdeclaration/home?pli=1

Forget the sequential numbering. It didn't take. I wanted to print this because I think there's some confusion as to the agenda. A PROGRESSIVE agenda. It will be hated by the tea party, despised by the mainstream republicans, accepted to a large degree by the mainstream democrats, and embraced by the progressive wing of the dems.

nailingit — October 15, 2011 at 9:30 p.m. ( | suggest removal


There is a LOT I find very interesting here nailingit. Wow!

mangoboy — October 15, 2011 at 9:37 p.m. ( | suggest removal


mangoboy- A lot of this the Congressional Progressive caucus has been asking for. It's good to see progressive thought taken to this level. Each point will make for some great discussion.

http://cpc.grijalva.house.gov/

nailingit — October 15, 2011 at 9:42 p.m. ( | suggest removal


There might be more support from the average republican than you think. The authors have very carefully crafted this to appeal to the patriotic element, with the references to the constitution and the convening in Philadelphia. I know they must have discussed the legalization of drugs but left that out to not offend middle of the road types. We have something to work with here. This could be good.

mangoboy — October 15, 2011 at 9:44 p.m. ( | suggest removal


I love getting money out of politics as being on top. That alone would improve our political system to the umpteenth degree.

nailingit — October 15, 2011 at 9:44 p.m. ( | suggest removal


mangoboy- To use the views of current republican presidential candidates as a litmus test, I don't see much that any of the republican candidates would agree with. As a matter of fact most of it will make their heads spin around while spewing green bile.

nailingit — October 15, 2011 at 9:49 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Over twenty-thousand today in Times Square!

nailingit — October 15, 2011 at 9:53 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Certainly not the candidates, but the average voter is different. Some are just as rabid as the hard core party loyalists but hopefully most value common sense over party loyalty. And it applies to the democratic side as well. But they are calling for the formation of a third party=that is absolutely the right move. It has to appeal to more than just progressive democrats to be successful.

mangoboy — October 15, 2011 at 10 p.m. ( | suggest removal


It is not stated, but presumably the progressive tax structure they have in mind will include significant increases for the wealthy. They will have to tread very carefully around this.

mangoboy — October 15, 2011 at 10:04 p.m. ( | suggest removal


nailingit the money in politics issue-a small but important step forward would be capping spending, including non party affiliated groups which are out of control. And having them disclose their party affiliation maybe? These groups are slimy, calling private homes to ask people if they want to take a "survey" but not revealing who has hired them to do it.

mangoboy — October 15, 2011 at 10:10 p.m. ( | suggest removal


I agree mango, it has to appeal to more than progressives. It does that to a large degree on it's face, but the messaging will be important. The Fox "news" channel/Limbaugh etc. carry a lot of weight with the GOP voter. LOL for whatever reason (or lack thereof). The trash talking that is already going on is something else!

Depending if another viable party is formed or not, if this movement keeps gaining strenghth, it can be used as a sledgehammer over Obama's head to make sure he acts on the will of the people, and not compromise with a party's ideals who were soundly rejected in 2008. 2010 wasn't about embracing republican ideas, it was frustration that Obama did not enact the progressive values in which he won on. The GOP jumped on his weaknesses like rabid dogs.

There will be a price to pay for the republicans in 2012. Vouchering Medicare, restricting abortions, continuing the Bush/Obama tax cuts, Union busting, austerity, gaming the debt ceiling,...this isn't why the republicans were voted into office in 2010...they scammed the public once again through "messaging" about JOBS!

nailingit — October 15, 2011 at 10:22 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Allen @ 9:05...speaking of those all to destructive Koch Bros.....

http://kochbrothersexposed.com/thepress/

nailingit — October 15, 2011 at 10:32 p.m. ( | suggest removal


""Former Fox News talk-show host Glenn Beck said the Occupy Wall Street protests that have grown in the past four weeks are part and parcel of a communist plan to collapse the U.S. economy.""

This is lunacy!! Carnival Barkers take notice! Glenn is your God! Vacuum the FEMA trailers!!!

http://www.ibtimes.com/articles/231877/20111015/beck-glenn-beck-occupy-wall-street-protests-demonstrations-unemployment-unemployment-rate-jobs-job-g.htm

nailingit — October 15, 2011 at 10:59 p.m. ( | suggest removal


I am not sure about means testing for medicare-then you have another bureaucracy created to audit everyone's financial status and the inevitable creative ways to avoid means testing, such as hiding assets. But a single payer system is the way to go for everyone for basic coverage, and then allow private insurance for stuff not covered.

mangoboy — October 15, 2011 at 11:07 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Good article providing insight into the psychological risks of exposing yourself to the "danger" of fauxnews.

"The danger Fox News poses to America is not that it is a biased or partisan arm of the Republican Party, as the Obama Administration contends. Fox is a danger because it is a cult and uses the same destabilizing psychological techniques cults use to undermine the independent functioning of minds they want to control."

"Once unleashed, these cult-like techniques can ultimately take on a life of their own and become very dangerous, especially to the most important of all American freedoms, the freedom of thought. The most precise term for these techniques is mind control." HP

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/bryant-welch/fox-news-is-not-just-bias_b_337961.html

nailingit — October 15, 2011 at 11:09 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Good morning Allen, my friend. I just wanted to let you know that I wanted to see your link, but an error occurs each time I try to pull it up.

goldenoldie — October 16, 2011 at 9:41 a.m. ( | suggest removal


Boy oh boy...there's something my security system doesn't want me to see on the Columbian Website. It's throwing alerts left and right about blocking data which could imminently destroy my computer's memory.

goldenoldie — October 16, 2011 at 9:43 a.m. ( | suggest removal


Allen the link isn't working for me either...can you try posting it again?

ELISI — October 16, 2011 at 9:44 a.m. ( | suggest removal


Golden, I have been having a lot of problems getting the Columbian to load because of getting server error pages the last couple weeks. I don't think it's our computers, it's more a problem at least in my case with the Columbian's server.

ELISI — October 16, 2011 at 9:48 a.m. ( | suggest removal


Nailingit, it is obvious you are warning people about a certain website and a certain TV personality who used to be on that website but the obvious fact is...they're everywhere in every neighborhood, every town, every media site, every news site...maybe even in our churches/synagogues/halls/temples and our government (oops!!! Did I say that??? Note I said "maybe."). Trusting in your gut instinct is the best rule of thumb, wouldn't you say??? Turn OFF the TV, cut BACK on the internet and open your mind to what these people are saying in order to see them for what they truly are and 9 times out of 10, you will see the charlatans for what they are as well as those with honest intentions. I believe the "Occupy .... (fill in the blank) is the way the citizens of the world are standing up, speaking out to say enough is enough. I liked the poster girl in the Columbian article who had the PacMan Game Over. It spoke volumes and carried a succinct message to those who have abused our system for too long.

goldenoldie — October 16, 2011 at 9:51 a.m. ( | suggest removal


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/10/16/david-axelrod-gop-occupy-wall-street_n_1013955.html

It's not easy for many on the right to wrap their heads around change. Many have turned a blind eye for decades, allowing their pastors and elected do their thinking for them. It's time for change, and this debacle called "conservatism" is being exposed for the emptiness it is. For too many it's about "gaming" someone, I win you lose mentality that highlights why we are in some of the messes we are in.

People, know who you are voting for and why.

nailingit — October 16, 2011 at 10:22 a.m. ( | suggest removal


Here's a link to four cartoons that seem to cover the 1912 and now issues.

https://www.ridgidforum.com/forum/t38525/

roger — October 16, 2011 at 10:24 a.m. ( | suggest removal


Allen,

I've been asking the same question about 9-9-9. There's too little info - for example, is military disability (currently tax free) considered taxable income under this plan? What about the deferred income, going to IRAs? Cain's website indicates the only deduction taxpayers get is charitable donations.

I played with the numbers anyhow, and when I looked at losing Schedule A deductions, taxable income went way up. My guess was income tax would be close to the same - maybe a couple of hundred dollars difference.

But then I started in with 9% tax on food, added to current gas tax, etc. What about bills for house, utilities, etc - are they taxed too? If the answer is "yes" then we will be paying a LOT more.

9-9-9 looks to be good for the rich and for corporations. I doubt anyone else will like it.

However, a question that needs to be asked is whether the so-called Bush tax cuts will stay in place. And what about what we currently pay for Social Security?

As near as I can tell, there's way too little info.

Another thing that bothers me is that 9-9-9 is just phase one of his plan. Phase two is a so-called fair tax.

Cain has a lot of explaining to do. Until he does, I'm suggesting running the other way.

roger — October 16, 2011 at 10:36 a.m. ( | suggest removal


nailingit,

One could take what you said here..

"It's not easy for many on the right to wrap their heads around change. Many have turned a blind eye for decades, allowing their pastors and elected do their thinking for them. It's time for change, and this debacle called "conservatism" is being exposed for the emptiness it is. For too many it's about "gaming" someone, I win you lose mentality that highlights why we are in some of the messes we are in."

Change a few words for it to read..

"It's not easy for many on the left to wrap their heads around change. Many have turned a blind eye for decades, allowing their pastors, elected AND the media do their thinking for them. It's time for change, and this debacle called "liberalism" is being exposed for the emptiness it is. For too many it's about "gaming" someone, I win you lose mentality that highlights why we are in some of the messes we are in."

Now take both add together then I'll agree 100%

ELISI — October 16, 2011 at 10:40 a.m. ( | suggest removal


What's the thought on the latest Eyman initiative, 1125?

My gut reaction is to like it. He wants tolls to be used strictly for the road being imposed on, to have the toll go away when it's paid off, and to use the tolls for highway purposes only (presumably roads and bridges; no rail, bike paths, etc). It also bans variable tolling.

The argument against 1125 (in our voter pamphlet) says "Independent experts commissioned by the State Treasurer say 1125 will cause the state to lose billions in toll bond funding for major projects." This alone scares the hell out of me - what are they planning on building with the billions of dollars they say will be lost?

roger — October 16, 2011 at 10:51 a.m. ( | suggest removal


Allen — October 16, 2011 at 10:18 a.m.

His 9-9-9 plan is a misnomer, it eliminates payroll tax for social security and medicare. He wants this replaced with the "Chilean model" which would call for another 10% paid by the employee. So it would actually be 19-9-9 plan. This would be devastating for the working class family. His plan also eliminates all taxes on dividends and capital gains, therefore the extremely rich would basically pay no income tax. This is in no way shape or form a fair tax.

frobert — October 16, 2011 at 10:54 a.m. ( | suggest removal


ELISI — October 16, 2011 at 10:40 a.m.

Good one!!!

..

Allen, thanks for trying.

goldenoldie — October 16, 2011 at 1:44 p.m. ( | suggest removal


We can start with US corporations that make their products in overseas countries - tax them like a foreign company and slap import charges on their goods. Companies like Nike are the reason we no longer have textile/clothing manufacturing in this country - they've moved everything to places like Indonesia and Vietnam so they can pay even lower wages than the near minimum wage jobs that used to be offered here.

http://www.oregonlive.com/playbooks-profits/index.ssf/2011/10/nike_cash_grows_to_45_billion.html

(There's an "error" in the link; this should read 4.5, not 45, billion - I believe they can't use the dot.)

roger — October 16, 2011 at 1:59 p.m. ( | suggest removal


http://www.politico.com/news/stories/1011/66081.html

Could be a sign of things to come! I'm sure a couple of bros. will come to the rescue.

nailingit — October 16, 2011 at 2:39 p.m. ( | suggest removal


BofA says you can't be a protester and a customer at the same time.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/10/16/bank-of-america-protesters-close-accounts_n_1013490.html

Per a BofA spokesperson "So, due to the disruptive nature of protests lately and the potential for safety or security issues, we do not allow protesters inside of our banking centers. If a customer who is participating in a protest wishes to conduct bank business, including close an account, we ask them to come back when they are not protesting or they may also conduct their bank business at a nearby branch away from protest activities."

Given this incident in Calif, and the Citibank one in NYC, it sounds like the banks are fighting back against the protests. Maybe they shouldn't have imposed debit card fees? Are customers moving accounts in large enough numbers to make them nervous? I can't see why they would lose any sleep over these symbolic Occupy closings unless they were getting concerned about losing customers. As I recall, the initial business news channels position was that people would complain, but few would go through the effort of actually move their accounts. Maybe they're being proven wrong?

roger — October 16, 2011 at 2:54 p.m. ( | suggest removal


A little something to bring smiles to the "liberals" (LOL), and I'm sure some pompous frowns from a few "independents"!

http://www.politico.com/blogs/click/1011/Lady_Gaga_serenades_Bill_Clinton.html

nailingit — October 16, 2011 at 2:56 p.m. ( | suggest removal


And it looks like candidate Cain has close ties to Americans for Prosperity. Even though he isn't advertising it, he used to tour and speak at their rallies. And his campaign manager, Mark Block, has extensive ties with AFP and the Tea Party. Maybe this explains the rise in the polls, despite the lack of real info on 9-9-9?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/10/16/herman-cain-koch-brothers-americans-prosperity-2012-gop-campaign_n_1013661.html?icid=maing-grid7|main5|dl5|sec1_lnk3|104812

roger — October 16, 2011 at 3:02 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Ron Paul has announced that if elected he will only accept salary of $39,336 because that is the income of the average American worker.

http://www.therightperspective.org/2011/10/16/ron-paul-vows-1trillion-in-cuts-and-40k-salary/

frobert — October 16, 2011 at 3:34 p.m. ( | suggest removal


What a guy!

nailingit — October 16, 2011 at 3:43 p.m. ( | suggest removal


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/10/14/scott-walker-pension-wisconsin_n_1011670.html

It's kind of hard to rust some of these guys...

nailingit — October 16, 2011 at 3:45 p.m. ( | suggest removal


~The government of the United States is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion~

George Washington

~As Mankind becomes more liberal, they will be more apt to allow that all those who conduct themselves as worthy members of the community are equally entitled to the protections of civil government. I hope ever to see America among the foremost nations of justice and liberality.~

George Washington

nailingit — October 16, 2011 at 6:02 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Actually nailing it ...

The government of the United States is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion.
This statement was made by an official representative of the U.S., but is actually a line from the English version of the Treaty of Tripoli of 1796, initially signed by a representative of the US on 4 November 1796 during Washington's presidency, approved by Congress 7 June 1797 and finally signed by President John Adams on 10 June 1797. Article 11 of it reads:

As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion,— as it has in itself no character or enmity against the laws, religion or tranquility of Musselmen,— and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.

and "As Mankind becomes more liberal.."

Was a letter written to the Roman Catholics in the United States.

ELISI — October 16, 2011 at 6:39 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Whoa that really got messed up...so try again...

This statement was made by an official representative of the U.S., but is actually a line from the English version of the Treaty of Tripoli of 1796, initially signed by a representative of the US on 4 November 1796 during Washington's presidency, approved by Congress 7 June 1797 and finally signed by President John Adams on 10 June 1797. Article 11 of it reads:

As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion,— as it has in itself no character or enmity against the laws, religion or tranquility of Musselmen,— and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.

ELISI — October 16, 2011 at 6:43 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Anyone with half a brain knew that when the government started messing with the banks, they would find ways to offset any losses. Now they are doing it. The biggest mistake was bailing them out in the first place. Those bailouts along with the others, GM, Chrysler, etc. are coming back to haunt the taxpayers. So, as people leave the big banks in favor of smaller ones and credit unions, will that mean that we will never get our bailout money back? Probably so. At any rate, if we would have let the too big to fail banks and companies fail, this country would be much better off.

cranky — October 16, 2011 at 6:58 p.m. ( | suggest removal



*roger — October 15, 2011 at 11:10 a.m. Try that work for one day, then report back on how do you like them apples.*

did that.

tobacco farming, "truck farming" (corn, beans, tomatoes for sale @ farmer's markets).

that's how i bought school clothes in HS.

teaches you things you cannot learn any other way....

DeeLittle — October 16, 2011 at 10:48 p.m. ( | suggest removal


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