Open Forum, Sept. 12 - 18

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Top 5 Most Read stories on Columbian.com last week

photoILWU workers protest along rail lines on 8th Street on Wednesday in Vancouver.

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No. 1) Longshore workers rally at downtown railroad tracks

No. 2) Mount Hood fire doubles in size

No. 3) Union protesters clash with police in Longview

No. 4) Longshoremen storm Longview port, hold guards hostage, dump grain

No. 5) Girl, 4, critical after near-drowning

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413 comments

Comments

Even the toughest warrior in a shooting war or fighting for social justice needs some occasional R & R. Have a good morning also Allen.

Post 9/11 ten year commemoration- What is the obsession with numbers we seem to have? Just another form of pseudoscience, like astrology, crystals, fortune telling. It was exactly 10 years past the event, just a convenient number and totally arbitrary. why not 9 years and 11 months past the event to mark it? And of course since it is one day past that, we must all immediately stop talking about it and move on to the next topic. We are boring!

mangoboy — September 12, 2011 at 6:55 a.m. ( | suggest removal


Yes Allen, it is another beautiful day...a day to be thankful for what we have in our lives...and I do not mean materialistic toys, either. I like the "Name" you have chosen for the forum..."The Cellar." Just like fine wine is nurtured and cared for in a cellar, so can be the great thoughts and discussions we share.

Yes...a beautiful day indeed - and not as hot, either.

And good morning to you as well.

goldenoldie — September 12, 2011 at 7:19 a.m. ( | suggest removal


Alley...it appears your glass is just about empty this morning. In times of struggles as many people are facing today, it does no good to sit and dwell on the negativity of life. Anyone who has struggled with depression, they don't need to hear about how rotten the world is. They've seen it for themselves. A positive outlook is what pulls anybody out of the doldrums and reteaching yourself to think of that glass as half full is step number one. There's always a reason...not an excuse...a REASON for why each and every one of us have been faced with negativity in our lives...why a family member or friend has been out of work for over a year...why the family is struggling with no food or has compounding bills and no money to pay, but it is that reason which the person must accept and work for a solution to better their situation. Negativity blinds all from finding their solution. A positive attitude helps to spark the creativity in reaching a better life...a better situation...a solution.

Now...care for a fill up on your glass this morning???

goldenoldie — September 12, 2011 at 7:28 a.m. ( | suggest removal


...and Alley, regarding your comment about "Religious Brain Washing," every aspect in life has some form of brain washing...some to extremes...as in cults which is what I consider the group you speak of... but to say all religion is brainwashing is not what I'd consider as truth.

goldenoldie — September 12, 2011 at 7:33 a.m. ( | suggest removal


Monday Morning blues-

Who is really hurting? Its all pretty relative. Look at the Refugees at the Kenya border, tens of thousands near starvation.

Poor America. We have the rich, they are always ok. The poor here, are going to subsist and survive the same, in good times or bad.

The middle class and the working poor are vulnerable. They have to work, put food on the table, raise kids, and take care of their aging parents. And most are meat puppet republicans and democrats, blaming each other for their situation.

Yesterday the columbian featured a Christianson Super yachts story. They mentioned one of their customers was an owner of a nursing home chain. These nursing homes are the ones who complain about the limits Medicare provides for reimbursement? The ones who pay close to minimum wage, with no health benefits? There is going to be reckoning day for these kind of gravy sucking hogs.

mangoboy — September 12, 2011 at 7:53 a.m. ( | suggest removal


Would any American would turn down a job with Caterpillar?

alleycat — September 12, 2011 at 7:46 a.m.

Yes, you would because it would be "working for the man". It would be a good paying union job that would give a person and family benefits that could sustain them for life and allow them to enjoy their lives. Unlike Mr. "I'm all about me", I would happily work at Caterpillar.

hawkeye — September 12, 2011 at 8:02 a.m. ( | suggest removal


Oh, BTW..... Good morning to you all.

hawkeye — September 12, 2011 at 8:02 a.m. ( | suggest removal


YEA I SAY UNTO THEE- LET YOUR HEART SOUL AND MIND BE ENGORGED WITH LOVE- YOUR ACTIONS DISPLAY IN KIND- I HAVE SPOKEN- THE GREAT AND POWERFUL GODSVOICE SHALL GUIDE THEE- I AM NOT THE VOICE IN YOUR HEAD- I AM NOT THE VOICE IN YOUR BOOKS- I AM NOT THE VOICE THAT ECHO'S THROUGHOUT YOUR HALLS OF INJUSTICE IN WHICH YOU TRUST- I AM GODSVOICE- A FACET OF THE OMNIPRESENT ASPECT OF MY BEING GIFTED TO THIS FORUM FOR YOUR EDIFICATION- BELIEVE IN ME- WORSHIP ME WITH YOUR TRUST AND OCCASIONAL GIFT*.

*(godsvoice accepts all forms of international monetary contributions to include foreign currency, checks and money orders)

godsvoice — September 12, 2011 at 8:24 a.m. ( | suggest removal


Good morning Allen, Golden, Hawkeye and Mango.

Nice cool morning just right for getting out and about today.
I know my little furry friend will be happy to get to go for her "car ride". Since it's been so hot she has had to stay home and not been able to say "haaarrrrooo" to other pups and kitties she sees along the way.

Golden and Allen, I rather like the "Cellar" like Golden said reminds me of fine wine, as long as it is kept at the right temp the wine grows in value.
On the other hand basement reminds me of mold, wet, darkness and corrosion.

ELISI — September 12, 2011 at 8:25 a.m. ( | suggest removal


cat, YOU make it about YOU every day.

I just find it strange that you would advocate for something that you would refuse to do yourself and rant against all the time.

hawkeye — September 12, 2011 at 8:26 a.m. ( | suggest removal


godsvoice — September 12, 2011 at 8:24 a.m

Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain !!!

hawkeye — September 12, 2011 at 8:29 a.m. ( | suggest removal


Godsvoice...you made me smile.

In some nations, chickens and fish are utilized as monetary funds as well.

goldenoldie — September 12, 2011 at 8:46 a.m. ( | suggest removal


Alley, one question. Do you not see the problem in what would happen to the cost of living if everyone is working a family wage job? If there was price stability, I could see where a family wage job for everyone would work, but everyone's out to make a quick buck and aren't willing to sacrifice their profit margins to set things right for everyone.

goldenoldie — September 12, 2011 at 8:53 a.m. ( | suggest removal


"Hawk...what you fail to see is that I have been there, done that, bought the tshirt and so on..."

You think you are the only one?

The difference between you and me is that I appreciate the job I had.

hawkeye — September 12, 2011 at 9:01 a.m. ( | suggest removal


alleycat — September 12, 2011 at 8:58 a.m

Oh, I got you..... Risk it all, lose it all, build it back up again, risk it all, lose it all. Yea, be a REAL man.

Sorry, I like safe and steady.

hawkeye — September 12, 2011 at 9:05 a.m. ( | suggest removal


"""Our thoughts and beliefs are induced by our environment and learning."""

Alleycat...That explains a lot to me about each and every one of us....
including you.

Quite a prophetic statement you have shared and you can take that statement one step further in the manner that it depends upon whether or not the person has taken the bull by the horns and controlled their own environment rather than adapting to the environment originally chosen for them. Any person will find that beyond the environment they have been raised in...there's a whole universe of knowledge as long as the mind is willing to accept that what they were taught in the beginning might not be the actual truth.

goldenoldie — September 12, 2011 at 9:07 a.m. ( | suggest removal


Okay...*now* we're getting somewhere here, Alley (regarding your post at 9:06 am). What you say sounds good when you share it here...but the question is this. Just who can we trust enough to provide such a "Human Manifesto?" Can we trust our politicians? The Clergy? The Wealthy? Those who have struggled and live in peril? The Dalai Lama? Who, Alleycat? We're walking a fine line when we speak of someone to come up with an individual system which would be advantageous for our society...it comes too close to the works of a dictatorship, wouldn't you say???

Bear in mind, Alleycat...I wish there was one fine solution for the good of all people, but we're at that point that most would consider it to be a miracle to find that answer.

goldenoldie — September 12, 2011 at 9:13 a.m. ( | suggest removal


Absolutely, Allen.

goldenoldie — September 12, 2011 at 9:22 a.m. ( | suggest removal


ALLEY, alley...alleycat, do I have your attention here. Focus, man.

Because you lose a job...doesn't make you a failure. It is the sign of change...a necessary change. If the job was lost, it's because it wasn't meant to be. We learn from it and gain, not fail.

Part of that racket we have to overcome is the racket of what is said about those who have lost their job. I lost mine. Do I feel like a failure? No I do not. You know why...because I had faith in myself. Faith that I could make my life a better life. I took what I had...even though it hasn't been much...and I banked on the qualities. I didn't dwell in the negatives and I won't dwell in the negatives. To say someone losing their job is a sign of failure is absolutely wrong. It's a sign of change...a change for the better. We adapt.

Quality of life should never be judged by the type of job you have or the style of vehicle you drive or house you live in.

goldenoldie — September 12, 2011 at 9:27 a.m. ( | suggest removal


My job loss? What are you, a moron?

I'm RETIRED, no job loss. I quit on my own.

I've seen people like you and worked for them in the past, they try to build something out of a dream and a whim and then go bankrupt and try again and again they go bankrupt. And who do you think pays for all those bankruptcies? Everybody does, in interest rates and fees. Then after seven or eight failures, they turn into alcoholics and live off the welfare dime until they die. Yea, I've seen them, when they start their businesses and hire people to work for them and the business fails, they just walk away leaving those people high and dry. Yea, I've seen those people, the ones like you that talk big. No thanks! You keep your racket.

hawkeye — September 12, 2011 at 9:36 a.m. ( | suggest removal


Nope, I've chased many dreams. The difference between your losing theory and mine is that before I chase my dreams, I calculate the odds and don't jump into the deep end until I know exactly how deep the water is and how well I can swim before the jump.

You, on the other hand just jump in and hope for the best. Good luck with that.

hawkeye — September 12, 2011 at 9:54 a.m. ( | suggest removal



Alley-
you mention who would turn down a Job with caterpiller. Well I don't think allot of qualified people in that industry and not emplyed at this time would turn down an opportunity unless it meant relocation and they liked living where they are now.
What is happening I'm sure all around the country is people not going back to work if it meant making the same or even a bit more on Unemployment...I know you've said it and I have too, you have to do what you have to do to feed, cloth and raise your family..
I know of people right now that say well I could have gotten a job here or there but to drive an extra 15 min each way and for what a dollar or two more an hour than I'm "MAKING" on unemployment...
Remember when JBH had coffee or whatever with the owners of businesses here in Vancouver not long ago. Those folks were having a hard time filling there openings, did you ever wonder why?

vanwadreamer — September 12, 2011 at 11:31 a.m. ( | suggest removal


Yo, Hawk@11:09, see my post from yesterday at 8:52a.m.
Yes, I'm aware.

I know I make a pretty sad activist when I can't make these meetings, but in my defense, I am rather stove-up. You can find a copy of my previous letter to the Commissioners, Council and Attorney here:

https://skydrive.live.com/?cid=2f72ca592c035113≻=documents#!/view.aspx?cid=2F72CA592C035113&resid;=2F72CA592C035113%21137

The outlandish ignorance in this matter astounds me. These people have no idea what a "collective garden" (as described in 5073) is!

I don't get out, so I've invited each and every one to my place so that I can explain not only what the law's intention is, but the law itself. They have section 403 confused with a California dispensary.

So far I haven't had any takers...

Drift — September 12, 2011 at 11:53 a.m. ( | suggest removal


Allen — September 12, 2011 at 11:31 a.m.

Why was the state paying to train doctors in the first place? Do doctors trained by the state charge less?

frobert — September 12, 2011 at 11:56 a.m. ( | suggest removal


Allen — September 12, 2011 at 12:08 p.m.

Unsubstantiated propaganda, I am truly surprised to see a once respectable publication stoop so low.

frobert — September 12, 2011 at 12:14 p.m. ( | suggest removal


This morning while out running errands, we had to drive by an accident (too late to take a detour)...two vehicles involved. It appears somebody failed to yield. One vehicle, a VW Beetle was a mangled mess... obviously totaled. The other, a small SUV was partially on the curb. The intersection was filled with rescue vehicles and medics had just placed a youngster on the gurney. It didn't look good. My thoughts go to the parties involved in both vehicles and hope and pray the youngster is doing okay...as well as the others injured.

http://www.columbian.com/news/2011/se...

goldenoldie — September 12, 2011 at 12:48 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Alleycat, you never responded to my comment at 9:13 a.m. Care to take a stab at it???

goldenoldie — September 12, 2011 at 12:51 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Okay Alleycat, I just got done reading the article you presented at 12:49 pm and want to ask you one thing. You speak of the Fascist Theo-Plutocracy and are suggesting the way the police are operating these days is taking away our freedoms. Wouldn't you think it is better to have our police departments take on a more military-type stance when going up against the organized crime sector...the same groups that carry weaponry which the bullets penetrate police shields? And what about these booby-trapped grow houses and meth houses that the cops must risk their lives in order to fight against the obvious predation on our youth for their despicable crime...supported by the cartel? And what about the cartel itself? You've seen what they've hauled out of these houses...arsenals equipped with the intention of mass murder attacks, possible terrorist attacks? Or what about the hysterical man holding his family hostage as he's trippin' out on HORSE, holding a gun to his child's head...shooting out the windows to the neighborhood? I could go on, but I'm sure you know what I speak of. The FACT is that we live in a different world than what we once had. The police NEEDED to step up to a more military atmosphere.

Is it for that Fascist Theo-Plutocracy or is it because the type of crimes we are witnessing in society NEED to include effective policing to protect those who follow the laws set forth by our government?

It was about 20 years ago that I remember reading somewhere that our government was failing and complete chaos and disruption fed by corruption, high unemployment and starving families would ensue. Did we believe it then? Probably not...but the officials must've taken it seriously. Most likely, it was because of the build up of what we're witnessing as the New World Order taking hold.

We live in different times, for sure.

goldenoldie — September 12, 2011 at 1:07 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Man... Goldie, uh...

I haven't a clue what Alley linked to (I've other things to occupy me), but I have to take exception to a few of your statements above.

There's a music video out there called _No Knock Raid_. I won't link to it. If the dying dog isn't disturbing enough, watching a SWAT Team shoot a man 23(?) times is.

Here, I'll offer this. It's a bit more sedate:

http://www.cato.org/raidmap/

'Course, it's all about drug raids, too. That's why you say the coppers ought'a be armed like the Marines, right?

Please site an indoor grow site that was booby trapped? An article, anything. I'll follow -that- link.

Beauty of a day, aint it?!

I don't mean to be contadictory (or hypocritical). I mean offering a link when I say I don't follow most. I'm just not a political kind'a guy.

Drift — September 12, 2011 at 1:27 p.m. ( | suggest removal


The police as they exist today ARE the "standing army" that our founding fathers were so worried about.

frobert — September 12, 2011 at 1:38 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Alley,
How long did ago did you buy Caterpillar? Do you have any other recommendations? Interesting 1:12pm comment today... How would you describe the new "ECONOMIC" system in your new world order??

vanwadreamer — September 12, 2011 at 1:44 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Drift: As you ask, so shall you receive. Here's where I have received my information:

http://www.tampabay.com/news/publicsafety/crime/raid-of-brooksville-house-finds-booby-traps-marijuana-plants/1185761

.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vagos_Mo...

(under "criminal activities" paragraph 5)

.
http://articles.nydailynews.com/2010-04-21/news/27062288_1_hemet-police-department-white-supremacists-san-jacinto-valley

...and Drift, this is only three examples of a long list of others I came across.

goldenoldie — September 12, 2011 at 3:09 p.m. ( | suggest removal


...also...

Drift, it's not just about the drug raids as I've pointed out to you. Just google "Police raid booby trapped house" and you'll see what I have seen.

goldenoldie — September 12, 2011 at 3:12 p.m. ( | suggest removal


alleycat — September 12, 2011 at 1:30 p.m

sooo...the issue of private drivers calling 911 to report a reckless driver or expired plates or unsafe loads...then the person who was called on receives a citation via the mail or these cameras on the roadway ticketing a driver going through an amber light...

Is that what you'd expect rather than having the police do their job?

Also Alley, what I recognize by your statements is my opinion that what you are suggesting is Martial Law when the military takes over the jobs of the sworn police officers, not a police state. Correct me if I am wrong, please..and please explain the difference if you could so that I can understand your opinion.

goldenoldie — September 12, 2011 at 3:17 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Just do whatever it takes???

hmmm....

a rather reckless thought, imo.

goldenoldie — September 12, 2011 at 4:10 p.m. ( | suggest removal


I knew you'ld find something on 'traps' Gold. T'aint no way you couldn't. I was hoping you'd do better though. Your examples aren't -all that-.

While I was out back dragging a brush across my shedding Husky (exclamation point goes here), it dawned on me that my response was a bit off-mark.

I suppose I wouldn't care if the Sheriff's office had an Abrams tank sitting in the parking lot. The issue (IMO) isn't the equipment, per say, but the methods that are currently employed by some law enforcement agencies.

Serving a warrant is one thing. The method many agencies currently use under the guise of "War on Drugs" is completely another.

I mean, is a human life REALLY worth the coke that could be flushed down a toilet?

And it isn't just the hard dope. How much pot do you think an individual could flush down a toilet? A few grams? Okay...

But the "dope" makes it okay to kill people in their own homes. For a few grams of this or that? Did you click on any of the balloons on the map I offered?

Again, I mis-wrote.

It's the methods employed, that I feel are reflective of a militaristic police force, that -I- object to.

Drift — September 12, 2011 at 5:10 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Yes, actually Drift, I did take a look at the map. I never said there weren't any raids that were questionable or unnecessary...and if you look at the raids in our neck of the woods, they were clearly courtesy of the Portland Police Bureau...a bureau plagued with issues. Note...nothing in Clark County. Other factors to consider when it comes to the map and locations of these raids is concentration of population, Drift. There comes an issue with the valuation of credible evidence which warrants the raid...and the judge issuing the warrants to implement the raid.

I guess what I'm saying is there are many factors to be considered when it comes to the duties of the police, the battle with the drug cartel and battles with other issues like separatist groups, terrorist sects and the suspected BAD criminals still hiding out from the law.

Drift...I want you to think about this - how many raids have been conducted across the nation which DID apprehend the rapist, the murderer, the kingpin of a local drug cartel and other bad seeds of society?

And as far as me not providing the "best representation," you didn't ask for the best representation. You asked for anything I could dig up on indoor grows. I just provided one with outdoor booby traps surrounding an indoor grow. Here's one for an outdoor grow...yet another danger to the police:

http://thegardenisland.com/news/local/crime-and-courts/article_9acba4b6-b830-11e0-8d58-001cc4c03286.html

I could keep sharing more...but I think you know that the issues are there for the police and sometimes, they do come upon suspects with loaded guns firing back at them. If you deny that fact...I'd be more than happy to share with you some more links. I've got all week on this forum, lol.

And yes, it is a beautiful day outside.

goldenoldie — September 12, 2011 at 7:24 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Now this is just good reading...

http://apnews.myway.com//article/20110913/D9PNBSAG2.html

hawkeye — September 12, 2011 at 7:47 p.m. ( | suggest removal


"Does the end justify the means?"

Night Goldie. Sleep tight, and safe.

Drift — September 12, 2011 at 9:04 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Alley-
Thought I would share this with you and everyone else. Read Ayn Rands comment bottom of article...

http://www.tradereform.org/2010/10/wto-helping-china-loot-caterpillar/

vanwadreamer — September 12, 2011 at 11:30 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Allen — September 12, 2011 at 8:49 p.m.

Nowhere,in the Constitution,or the writings of the founders do they refer to police. Militia(private citizens) may be called upon in times of need, but there is no provision for constant armed troops to enforce laws. Legendary lawmen such as Wyatt Earp were actually public workers who repaired boardwalks and kept streets clear, but could also be called upon in a time of need. Our current system is not only expensive and ineffectual but is costs too many innocent lives.

We could stop half the crime in this country overnight by simply ending the war on drugs and restoring the right of every American to make their own medical decisions.

frobert — September 13, 2011 at 7:04 a.m. ( | suggest removal


Oh the youth of today, have to give them credit for having a great sense of humor.

I saw a young man (early 20's) standing on a street corner holding a cardboard sign. As I came to a stop at the red light, I looked to see what the sign said.. "Just a ridiculous sign".
I honked my horn and waved, he waved back with a big grin on his face.
Made me laugh, so..Thank you whom ever you are with the sign. Thank you for starting my day off with a laugh.

ELISI — September 13, 2011 at 7:52 a.m. ( | suggest removal


The Posse Comitatus Act was passed in 1878. Basically, that prohibited the use of the U.S. military against it's citizens.

The John Warner Defense Appropriation Act of 2006 pretty much repealed the former.

The National Guard (state military, not U.S.) has been called out by many a governor to "restore order." Surely y'all remember the Kent State Massacre?

Drift — September 13, 2011 at 7:58 a.m. ( | suggest removal


Oh, and I see the cannabis collective garden moratorium has been extended. Hmm, did they manage to pull together a "work plan"? That's required for the extension, dontcha know.

Though I still believe the moratorium is an illegal act, hopefully they're putting window dressing on it.

Drift — September 13, 2011 at 8:02 a.m. ( | suggest removal


Normally I don't sweat typos...., but I REALLY hate it when I blow it and write "it's" when it should be "its."

Sheesh.

Drift — September 13, 2011 at 8:09 a.m. ( | suggest removal


Gee.
Was it something I said...?

Drift — September 13, 2011 at 11:15 a.m. ( | suggest removal


Drift-maybe they are all busy smoking some weed????

Just kidding.

luvithere — September 13, 2011 at 11:34 a.m. ( | suggest removal


alleycat — September 13, 2011 at 12:16 p.m.

We have a president not a dictator, only Congress makes laws.

frobert — September 13, 2011 at 12:26 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Allen — September 13, 2011 at 1:01 p.m.

The Constitution is amendable not ignorable.

frobert — September 13, 2011 at 1:31 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Allen — September 13, 2011 at 2:20 p.m.

No it doesn't say corporations are people, but it doesn't limit freedom of speech to people either.

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

The last two clauses are the only ones restricted to people,

frobert — September 13, 2011 at 4:01 p.m. ( | suggest removal


HaHaHa, The Republican'ts are destroying themselves. Good stuff.

http://apnews.myway.com//article/20110913/D9PNU2380.html

hawkeye — September 13, 2011 at 4:24 p.m. ( | suggest removal


T'is asinine, Alley.
Again, I'm amazed at the outright ignorance.

Drift — September 13, 2011 at 4:57 p.m. ( | suggest removal


alleycat @ 12:16 ........ and so it was prophesied on the 9th day in the 9th month, at the ninth hour and the ninth minute past.....nailingit @ September 9 @ 9:09

nailingit — September 13, 2011 at 6:27 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Yeah!!!!

Alleycat, you have finally put a face to the name of some of our commenting citizens in the Cellar!!! I'm not sure that would be Sporty, though. He doesn't have a team jersey on.

(oops, I'm adding nothing of substance to the C this morning...shame on me).

goldenoldie — September 14, 2011 at 7 a.m. ( | suggest removal


Maybe this one is better, Alley:

http://tinyurl.com/6hhbl4v

goldenoldie — September 14, 2011 at 7:03 a.m. ( | suggest removal


conceptual design of I-5 Bridge replacement

http://tinyurl.com/6k546p9

(wait a second...who's that under the bridge??? That wasn't supposed to be there. Hmm...I wonder who it is???)

goldenoldie — September 14, 2011 at 7:17 a.m. ( | suggest removal


clarko — September 14, 2011 at 8:05 a.m

And your point is?

hawkeye — September 14, 2011 at 8:55 a.m. ( | suggest removal


Hey Clarko...glad to see you're voicing your opinion on the C. Welcome to the Cellar. I agree about the ganging up aspect you speak of. This is afterall...a general discussion forum where just about any subject to do with anything in our community, the nation, the world is available for discussion and sometimes, it does get rather nasty...but that comes with the territory. Luckily, there's folks like Matt and Libby who keep abreast of situations and when they see fit, they will remove comments.

As far as my little slew of silly troll comments...it's just a bit of sarcastic fun this morning. any guess on who that figure was under the bridge in my link at 7:17am??? I'm still wondering.

goldenoldie — September 14, 2011 at 9:13 a.m. ( | suggest removal


hawkeye — September 14, 2011 at 8:55 a.m.

They have no point..that's the point!

I find it hilarious of those that poke fun, and use names like "Vantucky", cause frankly they have no clue. None, what so ever about the people and lives of those who live in the southern part of the USA. Nor have ever traveled or spent anytime there. Only what they see in ways of comedies and movies that come out of Hollyweird. To me that says a lot about their IQ when they make comments like that.

I am PROUD to be from the South - where tea is sweet and accents are sweeter. Summer starts in April, front porches are wide and words are long, macaroni and cheese is a vegetable, pecan pie is a staple. Y’all is the only proper pronoun. Chicken is fried and biscuits come w/ gravy. Everything is darling and someone is always getting their heart blessed. Have a good day y'all!

ELISI — September 14, 2011 at 9:24 a.m. ( | suggest removal


ELISI — September 14, 2011 at 9:24 a.m

It reminds me of "Sweet Home Alabama" the movie when the guy says "just because I talk slow, it doesn't mean I'm stupid". My Wife is from Virginia and the inlaws are here now so I'm in the middle of southern hospitality all the time and most of these "yankees" don't have a clue.

hawkeye — September 14, 2011 at 9:30 a.m. ( | suggest removal


*"yankees" don't have a clue.
hawkeye — September 14, 2011 at 9:30 a.m*

So true Hawkeye, so true!

ELISI — September 14, 2011 at 9:58 a.m. ( | suggest removal


Allen — September 14, 2011 at 9:27 a.m

You are in need of a peach cobbler to go with that fried chicken, biscuits and gravy my friend... ;]

ELISI — September 14, 2011 at 10 a.m. ( | suggest removal


Allen — September 14, 2011 at 9:58 a.m

Considering he is polling at less than 2%, it would be hard to conclude he speaks for republicans.

frobert — September 14, 2011 at 10:20 a.m. ( | suggest removal


Alleycat, it's no offense to you but...

Do you ever have anything good to say? You're so gosh darned pessimistic, lately. It's unhealthy to always carry a negative attitude about so much going on in the world around you. As one of several fine members of our *"Whine Cellar,"* I'll be the first to raise my virtual glass to toast the day and make the best of each and every day we're living and breathing, no matter what is going on around the world.

My offer on September 12th at 7:28am still stands.

goldenoldie — September 14, 2011 at 2:14 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Okay all you "Brown Shirts", I'm sure you can find a neighbor somewhere that said something suspicious!

Now's your chance to make it big in the DNC! Maybe you can even win the raffle to have dinner with Barack "I won, you lost" Obama and not even have to dish out the five bucks! LOL!

Time to put that glass up against the wall. ROTFL!

http://youtu.be/-XYKRokgX00

scotty — September 14, 2011 at 2:21 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Ally I have read your post of 10:02 several times today.I do have to agree with some of it.But from 1776 to the start of NAFTA we had good paying jobs.I believe that is when the status quo changed.The ones that were elected back then,with nothing but greed on their minds allowed our manufacturing to leave the U.S.I don't see how we can change that.The big corporations and all our elected ones have made to much money.They are not about to give that up.

terick — September 14, 2011 at 3:18 p.m. ( | suggest removal


I agree but go into any store and try to find anything that says made in the USA.I bought 3 pair of Levi's at Fred Meyer last week they all are made outside the country.And I try to buy everything I can local.I also try to buy as much from locally owned store's as I can.The goverment has created such a mess and has not left us with many options.

terick — September 14, 2011 at 4:28 p.m. ( | suggest removal


terick — September 14, 2011 at 4:28 p.m

Carhartts and some Wranglers are made in the U.S.

frobert — September 14, 2011 at 4:49 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Gee Alley...was it something I said??? I guess you don't want that glass filled, huh! Oh...those jeans you recommended for folks to sew??? No can do, buddy. The fabric is made elsewhere as well. About the only manufacturer that produces any kind of material/products here is Pendleton Woolen Mills and maybe a very few other manufacturers. I'd be willing to bet that the CarHartt brand purchases the fabric from overseas as well as Wrangler, too.

So if we cut out every brand because it's made in another nation...

We'd better have our own cotton plantation, our own oil rig so we can manufacture products with petroleum based products like polyester, nylon and acrylic; our own meat producing farm, our own stone mill to grind our grains and so on and so forth.

You hit it on the nail when you said you don't subscribe into consumption, Alley. That my friend is the best statement yet.

Oh...and Alleycat, you CAN think positive without being PC. You can say positively that you believe everything sucks. And as far as your "outrage" at my statement...you can go ahead and say you are F.....d, but don't expect others who don't follow in a pessimistic view as being in that position. Yeah, I know it looks quite bad for our current situation and most likely the immediate future...but as I've said other times, we are resilient...we adapt to situation, no matter how bad they are. People helping people. People working together for a solution. People reverting back to basic necessities. People reducing their reliance on their government to bail them out. THAT's the solution.

Alley...it was the materialistic mindset that got everyone into trouble. Now's the time to get out of that mindset.

goldenoldie — September 14, 2011 at 5:16 p.m. ( | suggest removal


goldenoldie — September 14, 2011 at 5:16 p.m.

Certified Jeans of Seattle, U.S. grown, milled and sewn.

frobert — September 14, 2011 at 5:22 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Quite amazing alleycat you just couldn't stay way huh?
You ask that no one speak about you, they didn't, so you felt ignored maybe? alleycat do you spend anytime in meditation during the day? Might try deep meditation and look deep into your soul you will receive the answers you seek.
Here, I'll remind you of what you said....

I just will do that.... You won... I don't belong here...never did... The common denominator is losers and dumb and I am guilty as charged for hanging around for way too long!

So long! May whatever is left of your assets serve you well but the thieves want it all...they want you dead or gone! You are too old, too expensive to keep and not employable,. They found better and cheaper slaves.

No, I won't post anymore and please do not assume I will post under another name because I won't! The party is over!Please do not comment about me. It will serve no purpose but to inflate your own self appointed feeling of righteousness which is not "reality", it is your own made reality. I only know my reality, not you.

alleycat — August 30, 2011 at 3:52 p.m

soul_pancake — September 14, 2011 at 5:39 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Perhaps you are forgetting about Japan or more properly: Japan Inc.

Before NAFTA, the U.S. had already lost the consumer electronics and optics industry to Japan, and a significant part of the auto industry. Watches, cameras, radios, televisions. All gone. As far as I’m concerned, the U.S. auto industry caused much of it’s own problems with quality issues. And then there was the energy issue. Japan capitalized on that with small sized vehicles, while Detroit did not.

Nevertheless, there were trade issues, which Japan Inc. was most adept at navigating to their own advantage.

Trading Places, by author Clyde V. Prestowitz, Jr. [http://www.clydeprestowitz.com/cprestowitz-bio.htm][1]------- was published in 1988. It provided a good detailed account of the way in which Japan Inc. was able to promote the export of it’s own products, while excluding American imports. Reading that was really quite infuriating and made me wonder how the U.S. government could be so wimpy.

Of course, Japan has since paid a price for their spectacular success of the 70’s and 80’s. (I might add, that seeing these patterns of reversals of fortunes, as with Japan, can be a strong antidote for alarmism).

Nevertheless, as far as free trade agreements go, with my political views, I like the free trade part; as it excludes a bureaucracy from making impossible comparisons and rulings on some enormous number of products, and complicated further by the existence of some 190 or something countries around the world. But it’s that ‘fair’ thing which is the problem. Productivity becomes a meaningless word when there are such enormous gulfs of wages from one country to another.

As an aside, I have always wondered, what effect the loss of manufacturing in this country, may someday present in terms of provisioning the military, i.e. being dependent on other countries.

[1]: http://www.clydeprestowitz.com/cprestowitz-bio.htm

kn_dalai — September 14, 2011 at 6:11 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Good one, Frobert...but I don't think a lot of people can afford $118 blue jeans.

goldenoldie — September 14, 2011 at 6:19 p.m. ( | suggest removal


"""...many don't see it...or don't want to see it..."""

Exactly, Alleycat.

Regarding the grocery store comment...that's why I've been talking about stocking up on necessities for just such emergencies so that people aren't caught up in the headache of empty store shelves. And who's to say it would be something like a hurricane? What if the ILWU continues their battle? How will this affect the products we purchase since a lot of them are coming in from the very countries which the trains are being blocked from exporting to? What if the teamster's union went on a national strike? Have you seen what has been going on in Greece the past several years? Farmers are protesting by blocking entire highways...throwing their entire year's crop in the roadway and setting fire to it?

That's why I push for everyone...even those who don't want to read this again and again and again...to stock up for the emergency that might come. It might not be a windstorm, a tornado, a snowstorm or an earthquake. It might be the unions, God forbid. And stocking up doesn't just mean food or water, either. It also includes cold hard cash because if the atm's go down or the computer system crashes...you can't buy anything with that piece of plastic in your hands. Should the dollar fail??? Well, I hope each and everyone has been studying up on how to barter and trade. Does that mean we should go into panic mode and building that bomb shelter or that bio-dome? Of course not. Working a little at a time each week to filling the pantry or saving a few bucks aside (even if it's by collecting nickel soda cans) is a good start. Learning to grow a few veggies or planting a fruit tree is also good. And yes, fruit trees grow in pots.

Knowledge is good. Educating yourself on the reasoning behind self reliance, less dependence on the government and preparing for imminent disaster EVEN if it doesn't come to fruition is what will help and acting on the education you have accumulated will protect you from that disaster scenario.

goldenoldie — September 14, 2011 at 6:30 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Also Alleycat...there's the issue of inflation which has plagued us for years. Is there a way to beat inflation? You betcha!!! You hear of those extreme couponers and how they can get a couple of hundred dollars worth of food for $5, maybe $10 dollars and you think...yeah, that's just on TV. Well, it's not. In fact, a friend of mine was telling me about her relative who just did their once-a-month shopping spree...bought $168 worth of groceries and after incentives, sale prices, coupons and electronic coupons...they paid a whopping $10.62 for their groceries...NO Lie!!!

..

Anybody hear about the damage to the cotton crops the past two years and how it would drive up the cost of cotton products like t-shirts and socks and underwear??? Well...remember what the price was two years ago for two men's t-shirts in the package?

So now I ask...how many of you stocked up on extra cotton products like these to supply for 2-years worth???

Well, here's another tip for all you peanut butter lovers...

They're raising the price of peanut butter by as much as 30% because of crops destroyed by heat/tornadoes/fires/drought. BTW, that will also include canned peanuts as well as any other product with peanuts in the ingredients.

BTW, corn has also been adversely affected as was soy. Expect corn oil and just about everything with soy in it to rise up in price, too. Even if the PNW grows a lot of corn and soy...it's the trickle down effect.

This is where you can keep on top of the situation. You see drought and storms in the Midwest or if orange crops are devastated...it will hit here as well. Remember the rice shortage last year???

goldenoldie — September 14, 2011 at 6:39 p.m. ( | suggest removal


clarko — September 14, 2011 at 6:37 p.m.

Cute, Clarko. You crack me up. Actually, since the transition to FB by the C...I haven't mentioned any of this till now. I'll try to keep on my toes and not repeat myself again. I'll try to keep on my toes and not...

...oh, I guess I've already said that.

my bad

goldenoldie — September 14, 2011 at 6:42 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Religious broadcaster Pat Robertson told his "700 Club" viewers that divorcing a spouse with Alzheimer's is justifiable because the disease is "a kind of death."

***For better or for worse, huh Pat?***

hawkeye — September 14, 2011 at 6:48 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Hawkeye...did he say that before or after he asked for people to send him money so he could pray for them? As BA Baracus would say on the A-Team..."I pity the fool!"

goldenoldie — September 14, 2011 at 7 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Just a little bit of irony, wonder where it says that in HIS bible? And he ran for President. Glad he didn't win.

hawkeye — September 14, 2011 at 7:30 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Oh heck, I can't help myself!

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-530252/Scientists-claim-cannabis-offer-hope-Alzheimers-sufferers.html

"A pot smoker may forget where they put their keys, but they won't forget the names of their grandkids."

(got the phones on jamming to Pandora -- set to my 'Trans-Siberian Orchastra channel.' you guys are funny!)

I've got a mail into the ACLU. Yeah, I know. I'm not looking for representation though -- merely guidance. Law is like medicine, it's all latin. Soon as I learn the super-secret name of the form I want to file, I'll be good. I'll be having some city council for a side dish.

Nom, nom.

The munchies, dontcha know.

Drift — September 14, 2011 at 7:39 p.m. ( | suggest removal


> That document that the former President called just a @@@@@@@ piece of paper has been amendmend how many times? -- Allen — September 13, 2011 at 1:01 p.m.
>
> I don't know why you are so hung up on what the Constitution may say, or not say. IMO, I may, or may not to say you are reading that, as President Bush said, ####### piece of paper, correctly, or you may be incorrect. -- Allen — September 13, 2011 at 10:05 p.m.

First of all, Bush did not make that statement: [You're an unconscionable propogadist Allen.][1]

Secondly,you have no academic integrity. You do not cite your sources for these alleged quotes. You make a habit of making quotes without verifiying their authenticity.

Tell everyone what worthless leftist rag you got that ridiculess quote from,whereby the govenenor of the Bank of England told everyone about his plans for the vast right wing conspiracy to take over the world.

You're a paranoid fool Allen, and you have plenty of company.

[1]: http://factcheck.org/2007/12/bush-the-constitution-a-goddamned-piece-of-paper/

kn_dalai — September 14, 2011 at 9:33 p.m. ( | suggest removal


As bad as it is, as stupid as we are, as much as we cannot get consensus on very much, it could be much worse, and if history is any indicator, it will get much worse. That is just the sad fact of human existence, the human "condition." We are just another species on the planet, struggling to survive. We frequently look at the horror of Nazi Germany as the most recent and extreme example of how bad things can get. The Middle East seems tame compared to that. And look how Germany has moved past that and is a model of social and economic achievement. Still it is possible the world will suffer and overcome even greater tragedies. We could have events that take billions of life, even in our lifetimes. But don't let the realities of our existence destroy our own inner peace.

mangoboy — September 15, 2011 at 6:51 a.m. ( | suggest removal


Allen — September 14, 2011 at 8:41 p.m.

Hey Allen, I'm glad you joined in with more information. This is where we all band together to find the potential cost increases in our foodstuffs. As far as corn oil is concerned, I do not use it and that junk they label as "vegetable oil..." most of it is soybean oil anyhow. Of course my first choice is always olive oil but in some of my scratch cake desserts, I use home made applesauce in exchange for the oil. thanks for the heads up on durum. I'm pretty well stocked up on my pastas, rice, beans and flour for the next year...but I'm sure even those will all see a rise in costs this year and there's always replenishing of the stocks. As far as corn and any corn product is concerned...I could take it or leave it....and pasta??? That's what my pasta machine is for. The pantry stock ups...they're there for the use when I don't feel like making it from scratch.

Also...we can expect to see the continuing rise in costs of beef and pork due to the drought around Texas. All the more reason to cut back on beef consumption and more fresh veggies and legumes from local farms and our own gardens. For lamb eaters...the cost of shipping lamb from Aussie and New Zealand has steadily risen so paying $30-40 for a leg of lamb is quite a hit. Locating a local sheep farmer who is willing to sell to you is the best way to go on that.

goldenoldie — September 15, 2011 at 8:22 a.m. ( | suggest removal


Alleycat, it doesn't surprise me about jobless claims OR the fact that foreclosures in Oregon are rising again. If more people would have listened to their parents or their grandparents and managed to get by without all the "toys" in the world, they would've been able to pay off their homes rather than lose them because they had to refinance because the interest rates sounded so tempting. They had to have that new 4x4, that new ski boat...and don't forget the jacuzzi and fancy outdoor kitchen...most things that if you can't afford to pay cash for...you shouldn't have bought them in the first place. As far as job losses are concerned...I'd point the finger at the manufacturing world and where it's located. It all trickles down to what the people are spending on and how this economic climate put those who have money...to stop buying. We are a retail shop society. Buyers don't buy...shops close...more left without jobs. You can see it in just about every store (except Target this week with the Missoni line of products). Anyhow...most stores are working skeleton crews. Any new hires are temps for seasonal work.

Local government jobs are fewer as cutbacks continue. Unions are feuding because the companies are hiring as cheap labor as possible. Shipments are fewer and leaner because people aren't buying.

I don't see this as an economic crash...yes, it appears to be but to be honest, I view this as an economic adjustment in the consumer industry...something that should have happened years ago. Our society is reverting back to buying out of necessity and more people are buying secondhand to prevent having to pay the high prices of new products.

That my friend is what I perceive as the issue right now and our government hasn't recognized that they are spending what they don't have...the same scenario for all the little people across the nation. Soon, the Executive Committee directed by Senator Patty Murray will finally come to terms that the spending has to be curbed and cuts have to be made...if they haven't already realized that.

It's just an economic adjustment. Population explosions only compromise the issue and whether anybody likes to admit it or not, the influx of immigration into our nation must be highly regulated...especially when it comes to those who don't have the right paperwork to cross our borders.

goldenoldie — September 15, 2011 at 8:33 a.m. ( | suggest removal


It looks like another forum is needed...any ideas on the name?

nailingit — September 15, 2011 at 9:02 a.m. ( | suggest removal


"""Those 4x4s, boats, etc...gave someone a job if you look at it that way as well based on a consumption economic standpoint."""

Oh yeah, true...so they could pay off the 4x4's, boats, etc...that they bought in the first place. You know...the ones the repo man came and took away from them.

goldenoldie — September 15, 2011 at 10:23 a.m. ( | suggest removal


Nailingit, how about "Gloom and Doom???" I know of someone who would visit that forum in an instant.

my preference ---
Tips for self reliance.

goldenoldie — September 15, 2011 at 10:24 a.m. ( | suggest removal


As I'd said before nailingit...Gloom and Doom.

..

Alleycat, you've really got to step away from rags like Huffington Post. You think this crap hasn't been going on for hundreds of years? The only reason why you see it now is because of the availability of seeking information is so convenient with internet. If anyone is so ignorant that they can't see the corruption and underhanded dealings, then they can live in their little bubble...but to think this is different from what it was a century ago...

I guess what I'm saying is because of all the corruption, it is finally coming to a head and the corporate world will implode. The people who do not live their lives surrounded by every move a politician makes or a financier squanders...the people who just go about their normal daily lives avoiding the corruptive behaviors of the elite...the people who refuse to get caught up in the mentality of keeping up with the Joneses...

They aren't going to feel the pain you so recite every day. Yeah, we're all going to feel the pinch and many will lose loved ones in war...just as they would on the highways and in the hospitals...

but to surround yourself, living every moment of your life...wondering which politician will bilk the taxpayers, which banker will find a way to implement more charges, which tax entity will raise our taxes or whatever else you concern yourself with...

my friend...it's not healthy. You speak of owning a sailboat or taking a ride on your motorcycle to get away from it all for a day with your buddies. Well, I recommend to you to escape from the grip the internet has on your life once in awhile. All the information you have gained from the internet...it's not going anywhere. It'll still be there tomorrow.

Alleycat, I know we don't always agree on everything and I wouldn't know if you liked me as a person or not...but I'm concerned about how the absorbing of all this information is getting to you. I know I have in recent weeks. Heck, that's why I've been backing away from posting as often as I used to (hard to believe). I had to Alleycat...and I'm asking that you do the same thing. We both can tell everyone "how it is" and "what we can do," but there's a time where people will stop listening and just skim over our reading...as Clarko chided yesterday...they already are. So Alley...absorb life for a day or even an hour. It WILL do you some good. You KNOW how it is when you take a break from the C.

goldenoldie — September 15, 2011 at 10:47 a.m. ( | suggest removal


sportyjames — September 15, 2011 at 7:20 a.m.

***Finally, something squishey and I can agree on !!!***

hawkeye — September 15, 2011 at 11:13 a.m. ( | suggest removal


Well said Goldie! While I agree with Alley's overall opinion, the gloom got to me and now I am skimming his post. You hear it daily, over and over, and what does it solve? Zero. We all know what is going on, do not need it shouted out every 30 minutes. What does the Cellar solve in the end? Same audience every day.

And this is no reason to call me stupid now or accuse me of being blind, Alley!

What's wrong with taking some of his suggestions and yours also? Best of both worlds.

luvithere — September 15, 2011 at 11:18 a.m. ( | suggest removal


And what might those unintended consequences be, nailingit?

goldenoldie — September 15, 2011 at 11:19 a.m. ( | suggest removal


That's all I've been trying to share with everyone, Luvithere. If the folks in the Whine Cellar can easily come up with suggestions to combine those "both worlds" and make the best of it...we produce a full-bodied spirit....better known as the forum.

goldenoldie — September 15, 2011 at 11:34 a.m. ( | suggest removal


...things could just get sticky that's all. And in the end....I suppose it doesn't matter.

Either way one is left with a desire to protect themselves, and after a time, feeling exhausted.

nailingit — September 15, 2011 at 11:36 a.m. ( | suggest removal


good save, nailingit.

goldenoldie — September 15, 2011 at 11:56 a.m. ( | suggest removal


Alleycat, question..

IF YOU ONLY HAD ONE HOUR LEFT TO LIVE, HOW WOULD YOU SPEND IT?

Anyone else like to answer, feel free to do..

soul_pancake — September 15, 2011 at 11:59 a.m. ( | suggest removal


Yes Soul_Pancake, I would like to answer you. If I were of sound mind and body, I would make sure my family is together with me as well as my friends and their families. We would party it up like there's no tomorrow...Oh wait, there would be no tomorrow if there was only one hour left. Oops.

Well anyhow...you know what I mean.

goldenoldie — September 15, 2011 at 12:21 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Whine Cellar..Full bodied = forum? Classic.
Soul: good questions. I know I would not spend it here ranting about the state of things.
probably look at a bit of nature, say goodbye to loved ones. Telling them what they mean to me. it all boils down to that in the end.

luvithere — September 15, 2011 at 12:22 p.m. ( | suggest removal


...and my comment of sound mind and body...

hmm...

Well, of course I'm of sound mind and body (at least I was last time I checked), but in some instances, that last hour of life...a person may not be in that capacity.

goldenoldie — September 15, 2011 at 12:23 p.m. ( | suggest removal


soul_pancake — September 15, 2011 at 11:59 a.m

Question, one hour for me, or everyone?

hawkeye — September 15, 2011 at 12:27 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Watching Gilligan's Island.

kn_dalai — September 15, 2011 at 12:28 p.m. ( | suggest removal


and the winner
The Skipper!

luvithere — September 15, 2011 at 12:38 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Hawkeye, one hour for you.

soul_pancake — September 15, 2011 at 12:55 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Alleycat, one hour, not one week.

soul_pancake — September 15, 2011 at 12:56 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Soul_Pancake...is that a New York Minute???

..

Alleycat, if you don't care if anybody is listening, then what is your point of sharing your thoughts, your opinions??? Is it because you are just instilling fear in people since you don't care??? And as far as that bridge is concerned. You are right. Nobody asked me but at the same time, I have every right in the world to avoid using that bridge, right!!! What I'm saying Alley is...

We control our own destiny.

goldenoldie — September 15, 2011 at 1:22 p.m. ( | suggest removal


uh boy...another Huffinpuff link again. Some people never learn. And what's with these racist comments today, Alley??? Care to elaborate???

goldenoldie — September 15, 2011 at 1:23 p.m. ( | suggest removal


soul, at 57 minutes I would like to exit an airplane 4 minutes from the ground. How's that for timing?

hawkeye — September 15, 2011 at 1:41 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Well Hawkeye, I hope for your sake that time doesn't stand still after your initial jump and before that 4 minutes is up.

goldenoldie — September 15, 2011 at 1:44 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Goldenoldie, thank you for your answer. New York minute, no, but Alleycat seems to think so.

He says that politicians and corporations have agendas, he himself has one..to hear himself talk.
Oblivious..

soul_pancake — September 15, 2011 at 1:47 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Hawkeye, great answer!

soul_pancake — September 15, 2011 at 1:50 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Hawkeye,

Jumping out of an airplane with no parachute?

That would scare me to death!

kn_dalai — September 15, 2011 at 2:03 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Alleycat, one can lead a horse to water, but one can not make the horse drink it.

soul_pancake — September 15, 2011 at 2:07 p.m. ( | suggest removal


kn_dalai,

I think it would be totally peaceful. But I like your comment. LOL

BTW, this butthead has to go;

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/House-Speaker-Tax-hikes-not-cnnm-1438934237.html?x=0

hawkeye — September 15, 2011 at 2:10 p.m. ( | suggest removal


alleycat — September 15, 2011 at 1:49 p.m.

*Instilling fear in people? Hello? Do you think people need me to be afraid of anything?*

I don't need you to be afraid of anything.
.

*No, you don't control anything Golden..."They do"...you can run...but you can't hide...*

Who's running and who's hiding? I'm staying put.
.

*You can start the car but with no gasoline..it won't go anywhere...*

Buy a hybrid or an electric car, set up a solar charging cell. If that doesn't work...walk, ride a bike or take the bus.
.

*You can open the faucet but if no water comes out...it is too late to drill a hole...*

Plan ahead. Install rain barrels, stock up on water.
.

*You can go to the local store but the shelves could be empty..*

You already know my answer to THAT one.

goldenoldie — September 15, 2011 at 3:16 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Sportyjames you are just full of chits and giggles today aren't you?

soul_pancake — September 15, 2011 at 5:27 p.m. ( | suggest removal


"*We need to thrive on our basic values and never...never abandon honesty and integrity!*"

I couldn't agree more wit you, Alleycat.

goldenoldie — September 15, 2011 at 6:01 p.m. ( | suggest removal


oops...that's "I couldn't agree more *with* you,..." Sorry about that.

goldenoldie — September 15, 2011 at 6:10 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Soul_Pancake...

Ew!

goldenoldie — September 15, 2011 at 6:11 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Matt seems a little "selective" in whose posts are removed. I had a post removed earlier with no explanation.

nailingit — September 15, 2011 at 7:21 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Ed Schultz (MSNBC) is really tapping into the political fever in Ohio. If anyone gets a chance, check out his show.

nailingit — September 15, 2011 at 8 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Ah! Mr. Nails. I also note the removal of one of your more recent posts! One might wonder if your irreverent reference, by innuendo, to certain human anatomy,(and by extension certain endeavors) might be the culprit.

Well…I just don’t know. But I do have my suspicions! HA! !!!

Obviously, dear sir, you are without a clue!

But here’s the thing. (about being without a clue I mean). I will note that there is a certain faction of persons, who were quite giddy over their self assured, but erroneous, prospects of political victory in the fine state of Wisconsin. Although, those dastardly Republicans did lose some ground, alas, it was not the landslide that their political opposition had been sure of.

Even more troubling, for some of you folks, must be the victory of a (gasp) Republican to the house of representatives, to fill the seat vacated by the most honorable Anthony Wiener. A New York congressional district which has NEVER before elected a Republican to the house of representatives.

I most humbly suggest that the electorate is after all, not lining up behind your marching band batons, as some of you have taken for granted would happen.

How’s that for some sort of deluded paradigm?

The third rule of KNDalai’s three rules to understanding the Left:

- Liberalism, so called, is a mental disorder.

kn_dalai — September 15, 2011 at 9:29 p.m. ( | suggest removal


kn_d...LOL! You are quite emotional and driven this evening! As to being without out a clue...

..."Matt seems a little "selective" in whose posts are removed.".....hmmmm. Is this the portion of my statement you take umbrage with? Please explain, and lend me that "clue" if you will.

"I had a post removed earlier with no explanation.".....hmmmmm (once again). Perhaps this is the portion of my statement in which you find me to be "without a clue". I received no e-mail concerning said removal, nothing was stated online about it.

And concerning your opinion that I was referring to a part of the female anatomy, while in context I was using another name for alleycat, surprises me not, coming from one that sites the freedom god lovin' Ron Paul as your savior.

"But I do have my suspicions! Ha!!!" A prime example of "suspicious" logic.

nailingit — September 15, 2011 at 9:58 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Allen, KNDalai's three rules to understanding the Left, are of my own design which should be obvious. I can be credited or cursed for how I see things.

Not at all the same as recklessly attributing a damning statement to someone that cannot be verified.

kn_dalai — September 16, 2011 at 5:38 a.m. ( | suggest removal


Nailingit, it appears your comment was taken out of context. IMO, it was a harmless tease just as Soul_Pancake's and Alleycat's comments were as well. And just for the record, I wouldn't have reacted to you in a teasing way if I was inclined to click "suggest removal..." although I may be jumping to an unnecessary conclusion as to what your suspicions were.

goldenoldie — September 16, 2011 at 5:52 a.m. ( | suggest removal


Attributing phony quotes to someone else, is not the same as having an opinion.

Shame on you.

kn_dalai — September 16, 2011 at 6:56 a.m. ( | suggest removal


Returning Federal Employees trained to kill need retraining for sure. How will their return differ from Vietnam Vets? Yes they will get their ticker tape parade, then its back to reality: realizing they have are the latest generation of cannon fodder for the Capitalists, that's when the brown stuff will hit the fan.

mangoboy — September 16, 2011 at 7:26 a.m. ( | suggest removal


Allen...great post! Sometimes I forget, those that did not taste life before the Reagan Administration, aren't capable of fully understanding just how much we as a country have regressed. Ronald Reagan (bedtime for Bonzo) took advantage of a weak Carter Admin, and much of the cancerous cells of unemployment and income disparity that we see spreading across america today, can be greatly attributed to a weak Carter presidency, a wanting public, and a terrible president in Ronnie. Given how weak our President is perceived to be on many issues, it could happen again to the tenth degree. This time we have many self-made "constitutional elitists' instructing us as to the intent of our founding fathers. Somehow they want us to believe our founding fathers would always side with corporate interests. On this they might be right. After all, what were the true motivations of many of these slave owning ultra wealthy elitists anyway. One thing I believe to be true, most of our founding fathers would be appalled at the intrusion/fanaticism of god into American politics.

I doubt they would take heart in what has happened to republican politics in the last 30 years.

Heresy? I think so. At the highest and most corruptible level.

The likes of Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell and their ilk were highly celebrated and empowered during the Reagan admin, and began to bear the "mantle" of hard right conservative republican politics.

Our system has run downhill ever since and has made no attempt to recover, as those that caused this downfall have managed to change the narrative.

And we end up with two war mongering Bush elitists that changed our country forever.

Conservatives, they are ruining our country, one election at a time.

nailingit — September 16, 2011 at 8:44 a.m. ( | suggest removal


Dominionism, the rise of Christian imperialism, while causing the downfall of our country, has unwittingly become a beacon of light in order to condemn this experiment we call...Capitalism.

They exist, not only in high levels of government and corporate brain trusts, but we find them on the corner asking for change, at church..asking for change, at our door..asking for change, voting down improvements to education, infrastructure and medical care...

...because it might cost them...some change.

Conservatives are bringing about the ruination of our country. Carnival barkers like Hannity, Beck, Trump and countless others "bank" on the weak minds, filled with pre-conceived ideas about god/country...and how all that 'stuff' works together.

But it's all good. After all................we are America!......Let us pray...

God...we, as a people don't know a damn thing without you. We give you all the credit for everything good, and the bad, well, it's those damn Democrats fault. Amen

nailingit — September 16, 2011 at 9:03 a.m. ( | suggest removal


Allen — September 16, 2011 at 7:58 a.m
nailingit — September 16, 2011 at 8:44 a.m

Actually one has to go back to LBJ's administration to get the full picture.
Was it not LBJ that pumped thousands of our troops into Vietnam? Kept Vietnam going, stepped up the draft, lost over 58,000 lives..he bowed to likes of big banks, construction and supply companies to fund and rebuild Vietnam.
Nixon continued the farce until the people had, had enough.
Carter was a sham. Made the US look like the Munchkins of Oz cause of the Iran Hostage Crisis. Plus being a nuclear engineer he could/should have done more for Three Mile.

The whole blame goes up the ladder to present day to both parties. Not one party is to blame, both share the guilt as well as the gullible people who voted them in.

ELISI — September 16, 2011 at 9:19 a.m. ( | suggest removal


ELISI- In the spirit of Allen's post. Competition, wealth, standards, admiration, job provision. These items are what the response was to. There have always been wars, and most likely will always be. I felt remiss earlier (ty for segue) in not mentioning Sr. Bushes most detestable act he performed while in office. He went to war with Iraq. Which in turned created a stronger, more dependent relationship with the Saudi's. (weren't 15 of 19 9/11 hijackers Saudi?)) Which put our troops as a presence in Mecca. Which enraged 99.9999999999999999% of the Muslim population. Which in turn inspired and motivated Bin Laden. Which in turn caused the twin towers to fal........onandonandonandon.

Conservatives....they continue to ruin our country, day after day.

nailingit — September 16, 2011 at 9:42 a.m. ( | suggest removal


nailingit, my point is/was/ and always will be it isn't JUST the conservatives, its all..from the politicians to the people.
People tend to forget that the president can only do what the congress allows him to do.

The action of the politicians all the way up the ladder nailingit, not one of them has escaped dirty underhanded dealings. People have sat back and allowed this to happen, never holding them accountable, none of them! We have fallen for the old line they feed us.."we don't know whats best for us, only they do" How in the world do they know what is best for us when they have no idea who we are, what we want, what we need or do?

When was the last time any of the elected rang your door bell and talked to you face to face?

ELISI — September 16, 2011 at 10:26 a.m. ( | suggest removal


ELISI — September 16, 2011 at 10:26 a.m.

I think what you are saying is more true now than was before. I think that during the Kennedy administration, the President pretty much had his way as to what he wanted congress to do however, after his administration, I think the power of the President started to decline and the power started to move more to congress.

Also, what you said about LBJ was spot on. He was most responsible for the huge loss of life in Vietnam as Kennedy, before he was killed, was talking about pulling his advisers out because they were getting nowhere.

hawkeye — September 16, 2011 at 10:36 a.m. ( | suggest removal


ELISI- In the long run, the onus doesn't fall on politicians of either party.

It's the conservative movement and those that follow lock step, and don't question the ethics and motivations that drive them. (btw interesting book just came out about Sarah)

It's about philosophy, and what works.

Like I tell someone else that posts quite often and decidedly thinks and sounds like you...

...quit blurring the lines of responsibility in order to advocate a conservative agenda. What you've been taught since you were a child is sometimes difficult to navigate, let alone negate.

Vote responsibly, look at the issues, and what party drives the issues that you feel are best for our country, as well as your family, and vote accordingly.

ELISI, you've stated before that you are conservative. It's a free country and I respect your right to choose. But tell me...just curious mind you...

...if these allegations involving Sarah turn out to be undisputedly true...which would cause more discomfort among conservatives in your circle,

That she was having pre-marital sex with a black man, or...that she and her husband have been linked to on going cocaine use?

nailingit — September 16, 2011 at 10:55 a.m. ( | suggest removal


hawkeye — September 16, 2011 at 10:36 a.m

Exactly Hawkeye, Kennedy saw it was an UN-winnable war and was in the process of pulling the advisers and the handful of troops out when he was murdered. LBJ stepped it up. Bank rolled by America's largest bank.
Don't even get me started on the construction company I know of that made millions off reconstruction in Vietnam.

ELISI — September 16, 2011 at 10:57 a.m. ( | suggest removal


Oh and Hawkeye, Kennedy was a strong president, unlike what we have had to present since.
He'd tell congress what he wanted, and pushed until he got it..since, presidents whine and play the blame game.

Sort of.."this is how it's going to be, and that's it" attitude.

ELISI — September 16, 2011 at 11:01 a.m. ( | suggest removal


nailingit — September 16, 2011 at 10:55

*advocate conservative agenda*

Not hardly nailingit, I blame both parties, plain and simple and if you can't wrap your mind around that..

*What you've been taught since you were a child*

I have said many times nailingit, both my parents were democrats, old fashioned by the book southern democrats.

*...if these allegations involving Sarah turn out to be undisputedly true...which would cause more discomfort among conservatives in your circle,
That she was having pre-marital sex with a black man, or...that she and her husband have been linked to on going cocaine use?*

Once again nailingit, I didn't vote for her, she isn't running for office as far as I know, and she isn't holding an office now. SO why should I care what she has/had or is doing?
If she is guilty of these things, the drug use should be dealt with by law, an affair...who cares, seems no one on your side did when it came out about Clinton and he was the president at the time. So I must ask...
How much did YOU care when Bill Clinton lied to the grand jury and to the American people about what he did and he WAS in office? Or that "he smoked but didn't inhale"....LOL
How much did YOU care when the dirty real estate dealings both Clintons did that took peoples life savings?
You see nailingit, none of them are pure as driven snow.

ELISI — September 16, 2011 at 11:18 a.m. ( | suggest removal


I've been as critical about Clinton in the area of lying than most Republicans. You're correct in a sense. Both parties are to blame somewhat. Conservatives exist in both parties, just to a much larger degree in the GOP.

Again, the philosophy and corresponding actions are being addressed.

Why should you care about Sarah? LOL! Because in many places her polling is higher for the president's office than many in the race. Also she was the Republican Vice Presidential nominee in 2008? Remember? And she still teases her base about running with no decision made as of yet. Sarah ran on a platform of "conservative values". I'm sure most don't picture her during a line of blow while having a "fetish" for dating African/American men. She is a "king maker" in many conservative states and has been emblematic of the Republican/Conservative party in the last three years.

She is a STAR!!! Her own reality show! Her gig with that "fair and balanced" news network! An ex Governer...sort of...and Mayor of the thriving metropolis of Wasilla. She shoots! She swears! She's hot! She does all those things that bring in the average thinking GOP male voter.

nailingit — September 16, 2011 at 12:01 p.m. ( | suggest removal


"...the drug use should be dealt with by law..." What would you do ELISI, have her arrested?!?

nailingit — September 16, 2011 at 12:04 p.m. ( | suggest removal


I don't have a problem picturing her doing lines and having inter-racial affairs, I've always thought of her in that light of compromising hypocrisy anyway. If it turns out to be undisputedly true, I'll be the first to invite her to the basement to explain herself.

If she's not to..busy that is.

nailingit — September 16, 2011 at 12:10 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Allen...we'll most likely never know the truth. Then again what truth is there?

People like Palin will lie for a buck (no pun intended) for anything. Hell, she makes crap up all the time anyway. If it was in her best $$$ interests, she might make a movie!

nailingit — September 16, 2011 at 12:27 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Not to mention her highly principled young un's! I wonder if they will follow in their mother's footsteps? Or have they started already....

nailingit — September 16, 2011 at 12:30 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Allen — September 16, 2011 at 12:22 p.m.

Didn't Kerry give a speech at the 2004 convention supporting family values?

If honesty is important in a President then Ron Paul is the only choice. He also believes that the Government should be out of peoples lives on all issues not harming others.

frobert — September 16, 2011 at 12:36 p.m. ( | suggest removal


nailingit — September 16, 2011 at 12:27 p.m.

You do know that I can see Russia from my front porch, don't you?

Well, it looks like Russia, in the winter, after it snows, if I ignore the trees and bushes and road, and squint REALLY hard.

hawkeye — September 16, 2011 at 12:40 p.m. ( | suggest removal


hawkeye — September 16, 2011 at 12:40 p.m.

Paraphrasing Tina Fey again?

frobert — September 16, 2011 at 12:43 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Alley- some food for thought

"Socialism only works
In two places:
Heaven where they don't
Need it and hell where they already have it."
-Ronald Reagan

'Here's my strategy on
The Cold War:
We win, they lose.'
- Ronald Reagan

'The most terrifying words
In the English language are:
I'm from the government
And I'm here to help.'
-Ronald Reagan

'The trouble with our liberal friends is not that they're ignorant; it's just that they know so much that isn't so.'
-Ronald Reagan

'Of the four wars in my lifetime, none came about because the U.S. Was too strong.
- Ronald Reagan

'I have wondered at
Times about what the
Ten Commandments would
Have looked like if Moses
Had run them through
The U.S. Congress..
-Ronald Reagan

'The taxpayer:
That's someone who works
For the federal government
But doesn't have to take the
Civil service examination.'
- Ronald Reagan

'Government is like a baby:
An alimentary canal with a
Big appetite at one end and
No sense of responsibility
At the other'
- Ronald Reagan

'The nearest thing to eternal
Life we will ever see on
This earth is a
Government program.'
- Ronald Reagan

'It has been said that politics is the second oldest profession.
I have learned that it bears a striking resemblance to the first'
- Ronald Reagan

'Government's view of the economy could be summed up in a few short phrases:
If it moves, tax it.
If it keeps moving, regulate it. And if it stops moving,
Subsidize it'
- Ronald Reagan

'Politics is not a bad profession. If you succeed,
There are many rewards;
If you disgrace yourself,
You can always write a book.'
- Ronald Reagan

'No arsenal, or no weapon in the arsenals of the world, is as formidable as the will and moral courage of free men and women.'
- Ronald Reagan

'If we ever forget that we're one nation under GOD, then we will be a nation gone under.'
-Ronald Reagan

stikoutking — September 16, 2011 at 1:09 p.m. ( | suggest removal


fro- You are incorrect. Paul wishes to outlaw the right to have an abortion. If that isn't big Gov I don't know what is. His ideas on healthcare, education and many other issues, if enacted into law, would kill countless and stunt the progress of our country severely.

Hawk- It sounds like a snow of different sorts might be landing on her front porch. If it's true, it might spike conservative cocaine use, which in turn could help the economy (the conservative consumers will overspend even more on impulse), and help the environment (there will be a few less plastic straws laying around for landfills).

God bless her......is Bristol pregnant again?

nailingit — September 16, 2011 at 1:17 p.m. ( | suggest removal


When was the last time any of the elected rang your door bell and talked to you face to face? ELISI — September 16, 2011 at 10:26 a.m

I have sent a written invitation to both the Clark County Commissioners and City Council to discuss medical cannabis law. I'm still waiting for a knock at the door (no bell).

'Course, I can understand why they'd have apprehension about entering a crazy pothead's lair (tongue, meet cheek).

Drift — September 16, 2011 at 1:28 p.m. ( | suggest removal


nailingit — September 16, 2011 at 1:17 p.m.

Paul feels that the Federal Government should not extend beyond it's constitutional limits. Abortion, healthcare and educations are state issues. He believes in restoring each citizens right to make their own medical decisions without interference from the federal government.

Did our world standing improve after the creation of the department of education in 1979?

frobert — September 16, 2011 at 1:29 p.m. ( | suggest removal


nailingit — September 16, 2011 at 1:17 p.m.

So maybe PPD should just hold on to that huge coke bust and sell it on the street to raise money for operating costs.

And yes Fro, since Sarah is AGAIN in the news, I thought I'd drag that one out again. The funny thing is, Tina was just playing on Sarah's previous statements, so......

hawkeye — September 16, 2011 at 1:31 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Give it up Fro, "Paul" ain't getting elected. He's just too far out there.

hawkeye — September 16, 2011 at 1:33 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Pretty good RR quotes above. They help to explain why the Republicans have deified Reagan. But if you replace the words "government, socialism, God, and politics" with the phrase, "moral majority" you also have good quotes.

mangoboy — September 16, 2011 at 1:35 p.m. ( | suggest removal


'If we ever forget that we're one nation under the moral majority, then we will be a nation gone under.' -Ronald Reagan

mangoboy — September 16, 2011 at 1:37 p.m. ( | suggest removal


'The nearest thing to eternal Life we will ever see on This earth is the moral majority.'

mangoboy — September 16, 2011 at 1:43 p.m. ( | suggest removal


'I have wondered at Times about what the Ten Commandments would Have looked like if Moses Had run them through The moral majority.

mangoboy — September 16, 2011 at 1:45 p.m. ( | suggest removal


hawkeye — September 16, 2011 at 1:33 p.m.

You are correct in that the democrats and republicans believe that Paul's message of liberty and constitutional adherence is too far out there.

frobert — September 16, 2011 at 1:46 p.m. ( | suggest removal


'The most terrifying words In the English language are: I'm from the moral majority And I'm here to help.'

mangoboy — September 16, 2011 at 1:47 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Allen and nailingit, you two make me laugh...do either of you realize that that are just as many conservative democrats as there are Repubs?

The problem isn't the conservatives it with the hardcore, hardline Democrat and Republican, politicians period!

ELISI — September 16, 2011 at 2:15 p.m. ( | suggest removal


fro @ 1:29-Yes.

nailingit — September 16, 2011 at 2:24 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Let's not forget that Ronald Reagan, at the time spent wildly and increased our federal deficit more than any other president in US history. ...... and then came the next 8 year Republican Pres., the great Dubya, who managed to set new all time records for spending, and increased our deficit beyond insane with irresponsible spending and tax breaks. You guys that trump Ronald Reagan...LOL, by today's GOP standards Reagan would be a socialist. What was it? Eleven times he raised taxes?

As miserable a President that Reagan was, at least he carried himself in a dignified way.

Those politicians on the hard right who invoke his name to justify their extreme positions are frauds...

...and nothing more.

nailingit — September 16, 2011 at 2:36 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Hey smellycat, you should like this;

http://apnews.myway.com//article/20110916/D9PPQUT01.html

hawkeye — September 16, 2011 at 2:45 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Has anyone heard anything about this???

*Allegations that White House aides attempted to pressure an Air Force general to alter his congressional testimony in order to aid a firm controlled by a prominent Democratic donor lent new momentum Friday to GOP complaints that “crony capitalism” contributed to the Obama stimulus programs’ failure to revive the economy.
Instead of the money being spent wisely, they suggest, billions were squandered by an administration that believed it could reward its political backers without impeding the economic recovery.
They point to the loss of over 1,100 jobs when the now-defunct solar-panel firm Solyndra, which received over half a billion dollars in federal stimulus dollars, closed its doors.*

ELISI — September 16, 2011 at 2:46 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Allen, I think the government raises its budget on what the IRS takes in each year.

Each year they are told to ask for more money. They spend it like there is no tomorrow so on the next year budget they can ask for more.
I know of someone that lost their job with the forestry service because he didn't spend all the money in the budget, in fact he found ways to save money. Told the top brass, next thing he knew he got fired. The government is gluttons and we are at the losing end.

ELISI — September 16, 2011 at 2:59 p.m. ( | suggest removal


ELISI....source?

nailingit — September 16, 2011 at 2:59 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Solyndra was birthed and pushed by the Bush admin. Again...the legacy of Bush enters the picture. It must have been tough to take the job as President, then look around at how totally messed up everyone and everything was. To have to change and reform so many nooks and crannies. Man. 94'-2006 total republican control, 6 years out of eight to include ...gulp...George Bush. It would be like opening up a huge home and grounds to crack addicts, meth heads and street walkers for that long and then be expected to finance and clean up the mess. Oh...I guess it turned out that way.

nailingit — September 16, 2011 at 3:12 p.m. ( | suggest removal


nailingit — September 16, 2011 at 2:24 p.m.

The United States world standing in education was first prior to the creation of the Department of Education, Today we are ninth.

frobert — September 16, 2011 at 3:15 p.m. ( | suggest removal


The conservative Bush kids out boozin' it up all the time...I'm always amazed at the lack of people who claimed to have voted for him......and twice?

Anything can happen...to include Perry getting elected.

We need to stop this train of conservative stench rolling down the tracks. Steamrolling our freedoms, healthcare and economy into the dirt. Perry is a great representative of modern day conservatism.

nailingit — September 16, 2011 at 3:21 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Yes fro...let's torch the Department of Education. We'll be a smarter people for it! :))

nailingit — September 16, 2011 at 3:23 p.m. ( | suggest removal


nailingit — September 16, 2011 at 3:21 p.m

Steamrolling freedoms? The only two conservatives running are Ron Paul and Gary Johnson, How are they steamrolling freedom? When it comes to suppressing our rights the democrats are just as guilty as the republicans.

frobert — September 16, 2011 at 3:26 p.m. ( | suggest removal


nailingit — September 16, 2011 at 3:23 p.m.

We are better off to leave it in place and continue our decline?

frobert — September 16, 2011 at 3:29 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Maybe.

nailingit — September 16, 2011 at 3:30 p.m. ( | suggest removal


...then again, maybe not.

nailingit — September 16, 2011 at 3:31 p.m. ( | suggest removal


...and there is that nagging question I often ask, just what is a conservative anyway?

nailingit — September 16, 2011 at 3:33 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Nailingit thats what I am asking IF anyone knows anything about that. I got that from a friend....trying to find out if its true or bs.

Allen, the big problem IS military industrial corporations, not the military. Those like GE who in 1989 received close to $2 billion in military contracts. Isn't GE owned or was by the owner of NBC? .. military-industrial complex now extends into too much of corporate media. People on the boards of large media-related corporations enjoy close links financial and social—with the military industry and Washington’s foreign-policy establishment.

ELISI — September 16, 2011 at 3:34 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Allen you might be interested in this..

http://www.defensedaily.com/publications/ddi/

ELISI — September 16, 2011 at 3:42 p.m. ( | suggest removal


frobert — September 16, 2011 at 3:15 p.m.

What metric are you using for "*world standing in education was first prior*..."?

And for "*Today we are ninth.*"

FYI: Dept of Ed was founded in 1867, so you might want to clarify the year you are really citing....

mr_basil_seal — September 16, 2011 at 4:14 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Allen — September 16, 2011 at 3:59 p.m.

Near as I can figure Keller believes that who has children, how they are raised is a federal concern, so, no he would not qualify as a conservative.

My opinion that these two are the only conservatives running, is founded in the fact that all of the others that I have heard have advocated ignoring at least some of the Constitution. Without strict adherence to the constitution, a candidate does not qualify as a conservative.

frobert — September 16, 2011 at 4:17 p.m. ( | suggest removal


mr_basil_seal — September 16, 2011 at 4:14 p.m.

Okay, the most recent time it was founded.

frobert — September 16, 2011 at 4:20 p.m. ( | suggest removal


ELISI, GE did own NBC but now it is owned by Comcrap. Oh and BTW, guess who is raising the cable rates again?????

hawkeye — September 16, 2011 at 4:40 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Allen — September 16, 2011 at 4:43 p.m.

I believe it was originally founded in 1867, but only lasted as a cabinet level department for a year or two.

frobert — September 16, 2011 at 4:47 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Allen — September 16, 2011 at 4:43 p.m.

I'm sure Basil could shed more light on the subject if he chooses.

frobert — September 16, 2011 at 4:49 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Allen — September 16, 2011 at 5:06 p.m.

http://www2.ed.gov/about/overview/fed/role.

This is a little politicized, however it should clearly explain that the department of education as we know it was founded in 1980, I previously stated 1979, but that is when the law was passed.

frobert — September 16, 2011 at 5:10 p.m. ( | suggest removal


frobert — September 16, 2011 at 4:47 p.m.

frobert — September 16, 2011 at 5:10 p.m.

The founding date wasn't the important part of the query, btw.

But, what metric are you using for "world standing in education was first prior..."?

And for "Today we are ninth."

But, I guess now we can ask what is significant about your 1979-1980 date.

mr_basil_seal — September 16, 2011 at 5:35 p.m. ( | suggest removal


mr_basil_seal — September 16, 2011 at 5:35 p.m.

The metric I used was graduation rate, I got it from a CBS article. We have also declined in reading and mathematics scores, however I have not yet found a reliable source for our standing in 1979.

The significance in the date is the general decline in our educational system since then.

I do not want to imply that I am placing blame on the exceptional teachers in our school system. My concern is with Federal control over something that should be local.

frobert — September 16, 2011 at 6:01 p.m. ( | suggest removal


" My concern is with Federal control over something that should be local."

Why? Is not Science, Math, English, History pretty much universal in content? Why have 50 states, or thousands of districts deciding on content, sequencing, basic standards?

mr_basil_seal — September 16, 2011 at 6:12 p.m. ( | suggest removal


"however I have not yet found a reliable source for our standing in 1979."

sigh.................

mr_basil_seal — September 16, 2011 at 6:13 p.m. ( | suggest removal


mr_basil_seal — September 16, 2011 at 6:12 p.m.

Firs there is no constitutional authority for education to be centrally controlled. Second the states serve as a protector from extremists that may gain control of the Federal government.

frobert — September 16, 2011 at 6:19 p.m. ( | suggest removal


frobert — September 16, 2011 at 6:19 p.m.

Oh, sigh, yet again....

*" no constitutional authority for education"*

"promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty"

*" protector from extremists"*

NCLB ring a bell?

mr_basil_seal — September 16, 2011 at 6:35 p.m. ( | suggest removal


The Preamble?

Sigh...

"The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people."

NCLB...Unconstitutional authority seized by a republican is as bad as unconstitutional authority seized by a democrat.

frobert — September 16, 2011 at 6:47 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Sorry Allan, Fro's taking one of my stepmoms out for her 21st tonight he'll have to get back to you in the morning. ;)

Genevieve — September 16, 2011 at 7:26 p.m. ( | suggest removal


What a dilemma. a presidential election coming next year, and we have a "lets throw the bums out" sentiment building. ALL the bums. Yet we have no one to replace the bums we want to through out that are even close to acceptable. That means we will go into default mode. The generic candidate who offends the least number of people, the safe choice.

mangoboy — September 16, 2011 at 8:05 p.m. ( | suggest removal


The political predators are putting out their feelers. Have had a few telephone solicitors asking me to take a "survey." They will not reveal who has hired them to do the survey. The most information I get is they are calling from Eastern Idaho somewhere. They want to know my age and did I vote in the 2009 elections. Talking about trolls-these are the real deal. The guerrilla tactics to not reveal their identity is the first sign of the predictable dirty politics season, where the ends justifies any and all means. Fine. they want a war, that's what they will get.

mangoboy — September 16, 2011 at 8:31 p.m. ( | suggest removal


"Many seniors living on fixed incomes heat their homes with oil during our cold winters. These people have asked me to do all that I can to lower outrageously high gasoline and heating-oil prices. I intend to do just that." (Bernie Saunders)

"These" people? Does that mean Bernie Saunders is not having trouble heating HIS house?

Instead of a lowering the cost of heating oil, REPLACE the old, inefficient furnaces!

mangoboy — September 16, 2011 at 9:32 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Or replace foreign oil in the heating tank with homegrown biofuel waste, mangoboy. Sequential Biofuels delivers just that.

Professor L Anthony Brancaccio: Good column this morning! You get your point across with humor! Take us to your classroom more often, please.

I must say that, as a state employee, I have reached the near breaking point. Because my spouse is a successful small business owner, I can absorb the cuts to my salary and benefits. What I cannot do is continue to serve my child clients in an ethical way. Services are so draconian that we are harming the most vulnerable and precious resource our state has. Time to move on......

manthou — September 17, 2011 at 6:46 a.m. ( | suggest removal


mangoboy — September 16, 2011 at 9:32 p.m

The popularity of #2 fuel heating systems in the northeast, is due to the need of more BTUs. Gas systems have a little advantage in inefficiency but the fuel contains much less energy.

frobert — September 17, 2011 at 7:41 a.m. ( | suggest removal


Sounds like Lou is fed up like all the rest of us. Time to move on, and find another party to crash...what about the Green Party? Interesting, But I have serious reservations. For example:

"All viable candidates at the state and federal levels should have free and equal radio and television time and print press coverage." (Green Party Platform, political reform)

Who is to decide the definition of "viable?" Its like the Greens seem to have overly idealistic thinking, and two, ignore the really tough realities of politics and just how far established parties will go to win by an assortment of dirty tricks. So Green Party values have to be grafted onto a movement that can handle the bad guys. Also, they underestimate what it will take to overcome the degree of addiction to consumer lifestyles we have, and what they will do to maintain their addictions.

mangoboy — September 17, 2011 at 7:43 a.m. ( | suggest removal


I am surprised the Dictator in Venezuela has not offered to send heating oil to Vermont yet.

mangoboy — September 17, 2011 at 7:52 a.m. ( | suggest removal


frobert — September 16, 2011 at 6:47 p.m.

Oh, sigh....

Court case?

"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence." C. Sagan

mr_basil_seal — September 17, 2011 at 8:21 a.m. ( | suggest removal


mr_basil_seal — September 17, 2011 at 8:21 a.m.

A few simple words, with a clear meaning is extraordinary evidence.

"The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people."

frobert — September 17, 2011 at 10:01 a.m. ( | suggest removal


Are we going to be looking at a SarahPalin/HermanCain ticket from the Republicans in the near future? A formidable and well represented ticket it would be.

nailingit — September 17, 2011 at 10:41 a.m. ( | suggest removal


frobert — September 17, 2011 at 10:01 a.m.

frobert — September 16, 2011 at 6:47 p.m.

Oh, sigh....

Court case?

"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence." C. Sagan

mr_basil_seal — September 17, 2011 at 10:52 a.m. ( | suggest removal


With recent revelations about Sarah being brought to light...we should turn it into something positive. Not be so negative...

...perhaps we as a nation should have a real conversation about cocaine usage, as well as inter-racial relationships.

nailingit — September 17, 2011 at 10:54 a.m. ( | suggest removal


oooooooooohhhhh..BARRACUDA!!!..da dada da...da da...daaAAAA(feedback/vibrato)

nailingit — September 17, 2011 at 11 a.m. ( | suggest removal


Yea, I like Ann and Nancy. Good stuff.

hawkeye — September 17, 2011 at 11:56 a.m. ( | suggest removal


So far Sarah isn't commenting on the specifics in "The Rouge". Allegations she carried on a six month affair with one of Todd's business partners, while she was married. A one night stand with Glenn Rice, smokin' lots of dope, snortin' coke, a "fetish for black guys"....

...this is starting to sound like a bad Spike Lee movie.

Sarah.......can I call you JO......say it ain't so!!!

nailingit — September 17, 2011 at 12:52 p.m. ( | suggest removal


nailingit — September 17, 2011 at 12:52 p.m

Have you been reading Doonesbury this week? Some really good spins on the story.

hawkeye — September 17, 2011 at 12:56 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Just checked it out hawkeye. Good stuff! I wasn't aware Doonsbury had someone (Hedley) as an imbed at Fox news!

nailingit — September 17, 2011 at 1:11 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Stamp out anti-science in US politics

Paul Nurse

It is time to reject political movements that turn their backs on science, says Nobel prizewinner and Royal Society president Paul Nurse

"We need to emphasise why the scientific process is such a reliable generator of knowledge - with its respect for evidence, for scepticism, for consistency of approach, for the constant testing of ideas. Everyone should know and understand why the processes that lead to astronomy are more reliable than those that lead to astrology."

http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg21128302.900-stamp-out-antiscience-in-us-politics.html

mr_basil_seal — September 17, 2011 at 3:28 p.m. ( | suggest removal


mr_basil_seal — September 17, 2011 at 3:28 p.m.

Somehow Nobel prizewinner doesn't mean what it used to.

frobert — September 17, 2011 at 3:39 p.m. ( | suggest removal


nailingit — September 17, 2011 at 10:41 a.m.

nailingit — September 17, 2011 at 10:54 a.m.

I’m rather surprised that you think interracial relationships would matter to (almost) anyone. This is, after all 2011.

However, I believe that the question of which should be at the top of the ticket would spark some lively debate.

My guess would be that Republicans would be evenly split with around half voting for Herman to be on top, and the other half voting for Sarah to be on the top.

kn_dalai — September 17, 2011 at 5:38 p.m. ( | suggest removal


According to Politico, Palin is finding some support within the Lamestream media.

Among other things:

> Once again, though, media outlets haven’t played along with the anti-Palin gambit. The Chicago Tribune and other newspapers have declined to publish the “Doonesbury” strips, with the Trib explaining, “The subject matter does not meet our standards of fairness.”

http://news.yahoo.com/lamestream-media-defends-palin-093100032.html

kn_dalai — September 17, 2011 at 5:41 p.m. ( | suggest removal


kn_d - I think inter-racial relationships matter to many people. Much less in most parts of the world, but given our recent history with that slavery thing, it is of course a controversial subject, in particular to those southern conservatives. Wasn't it only a few months ago that Obama was compelled to produce his birth certificate?

As far as the ticket...Palin/Cain or Cain/Palin...it would be...

Palin/Cain...Top/Bottom. ;))

nailingit — September 17, 2011 at 7:24 p.m. ( | suggest removal


frobert — September 17, 2011 at 3:39 p.m

Feeling the hate Fro

hawkeye — September 17, 2011 at 7:41 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Adultery, illegal drug use, fornication......oh sarah...no wonder she was/is so wildly cheered and looked up to on the right.

Will this affect the right's campaign for promoting abstinence? Considering the lead spokesperson is an out of wedlock mother with the last name of Palin......don't give up the fight Bristol..we love you!!!

nailingit — September 17, 2011 at 7:49 p.m. ( | suggest removal


hawkeye — September 17, 2011 at 7:41 p.m.

No hate here, there were however great people such as George Mitchell, who deserved that Nobel peace prize.

frobert — September 17, 2011 at 7:58 p.m. ( | suggest removal


frobert — September 17, 2011 at 7:58 p.m

Nope, not buying it. Still feeling the hate. Shame on you.

hawkeye — September 17, 2011 at 8:09 p.m. ( | suggest removal


hawkeye — September 17, 2011 at 8:09 p.m.

If you see any hate in my statements you are a sad person and I feel sorry for you.

frobert — September 17, 2011 at 8:49 p.m. ( | suggest removal


frobert — September 17, 2011 at 8:49 p.m

If you don't, you are in denial.

hawkeye — September 17, 2011 at 10:08 p.m. ( | suggest removal


"Ciudad Juarez is all our futures. This is the inevitable war of capitalism gone mad.
Mexico's drug cartels are actually pioneers of the global economy in their business logic and modus operandi.

"War"is something fought between people with causes, however crazy or honourable: like between the American and British occupiers of Iraq and the insurgents who opposed them. Contrast that with Mexico's drug war – which has claimed nearly 40,000 lives, mostly civilians – all the rules have changed. This is warfare for the 21st century, and another creature altogether." (Guardian)

A new theme for the 21st century-War is a result of and synonymous with CRIME on a large scale. Nation against nation is a historic phenomenon. The new reality is global criminal organizations, paramilitary forces, and mercenaries, financed by regimes and corporations, all with vested interests in continuous conflict. The globalization of crime partners with multinational banks and offshore front corporations, who are as difficult to grasp as a handful of sand. Cyber-criminals easily cross all national boundaries and operate beyond the reach of law enforcement. Everyone operates within a racket, from the post surgery check up to remove a bandage that costs over $1,500, to the 30 minute home appraisal costing $400, Over a hundred million for "bridge planning studies, etc. This is the "legitimate" sector of the criminal economy. Justification? we are all being ripped off, so to pay our bills, we have to greatly distort our charges to others.

mangoboy — September 17, 2011 at 10:49 p.m. ( | suggest removal


nailingit — September 17, 2011 at 7:24 p.m.

I think you’re quite wrong about that.

Just what parts of the world would you be referring to? Japan perhaps? ARGGH.

What is this about the “recent slavery thing”?

Since that slavery thing, our fellow black American citizens have become immersed in every aspect of American life. The trades, business, the arts and sciences, education, and any manner of other professional careers. And Politics.

Funny, isn’t it, how Clarence Thomas was so thoroughly reviled by the Left. Condolezza Rice, a former U.S. Secretary of State . Colin Powell, a resume almost too long to give justice to here. And now the Republican party has a successful and well spoken black American in Herman Cain, as a most excellent candidate.

Perhaps you can expand upon your idea that it is southern conservatives that are behind requiring Obama producing his birth certificates.

Mr. Obama’s citizenship standing is hardly the first to be challenged. Here is a Wiki page regarding this.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural-...

kn_dalai — September 17, 2011 at 11:02 p.m. ( | suggest removal


nailingit — September 17, 2011 at 7:49 p.m.

Adultery, fornication and illegal drug use? Of course you are describing Mr. Clinton.

Those allegations regarding S. Palin may or may not be correct. For the time being, it’s all conjecture based on some gossip tell all book which is currently being rebuked by even some of the leading Lamestream media, as a hit job.

One might note the difference between playground gossip antics, and fact.

kn_dalai — September 17, 2011 at 11:11 p.m. ( | suggest removal


The criminalization of War...

Was war ever "legal"? If the the Congress authorizes it, if the UN Security Council gives the green light, then it is "legal?"

And what about "State sponsored terrorism"-actually a propaganda message to try and separate legitimate, just war, versus those who cannot hide behind a front of respectability.

The acceptable definition of WAR as we know and experience it now is large scale, international organized CRIME, often legitimatized by official political institutions.

mangoboy — September 18, 2011 at 7:04 a.m. ( | suggest removal


frobert — September 17, 2011 at 3:39 p.m.

Ah, An an attempt at attacking the messenger rather than the substance.......

mr_basil_seal — September 18, 2011 at 7:07 a.m. ( | suggest removal


The definition of criminality, to try to stick that label on individuals or groups, using the powers of persuasion and rhetoric. Like trying to brand the Longshoreman in Longview as criminals, to delegitimatize their cause. Ironically, most of the critics have much more in common with the union guys then they do the Wall Street criminals, yet they go unscathed, insulated by legality and redundant layers of lawyers and mercenary police protection.

mangoboy — September 18, 2011 at 7:13 a.m. ( | suggest removal


Honestly, this is the first time I might ever show sympathy with Sarah Palin. Here goes:

When I reflect on some of the things I and my friends did when we were young, single, and stupid.......And marriages have bumps that are survived.

My reaction to the revelations in this book? A big yawn.

What worries me forever about this woman are her politics. As long as she does not eat her young, what she does in her private time is her business. :)

manthou — September 18, 2011 at 7:27 a.m. ( | suggest removal


Myself, I prefer beer. To each their own, eh?

Drift — September 18, 2011 at 7:27 a.m. ( | suggest removal


Three of the most read stories this week involve the Longshoreman action. That is unprecendented. This has really hit a nerve, and is at the center of a major issue, which is living wage jobs, and the of legitimate vs illegitimate criminality and the struggle for power. Does Power come out of the barrel of a gun, or can it be achieved through peaceful, non violent protest?

mangoboy — September 18, 2011 at 7:28 a.m. ( | suggest removal


The analogy of how mankind has evolved from unorganized proto humans, each hunting independently, into communities organized into people working together, specializing and cooperating, is now reverting back to the law of the jungle and every man, woman, and child for himself. We all have our caves, and will defend it, rather than the village. Think about the neighborhood where you live. Just a few houses away from you, are total strangers. The cyberspace connections is a facade, and meaningless when reality asserts itself. Hows that for a little doom and gloom?

mangoboy — September 18, 2011 at 7:38 a.m. ( | suggest removal


Here I am talking too much, but who cares...

Eric Cantor declares Obama will be starting a class "War" by raising taxes on the ultra wealthy. What is the difference between class war and real war? Die slowly, or die quickly? Maybe a little "class war" would not be such a bad thing...

mangoboy — September 18, 2011 at 7:57 a.m. ( | suggest removal


mangoboy: The poor little peon folk who keep voting for the rich fat cats in the Republican party need to wake up or get smart or both.

Their pitiful lives are becoming even more pitiful because their beloved elected officials keep the goods and services for themselves. It does not trickle down.

What will it take to have that epiphany? I keep waiting. Could they even organize a class war? They are so busy trying to survive and maybe their leaders like it that way.

It is sad. My words maybe don't show it (there is no sarcasm font, afterall), but I feel deeply for those who are struggling the most, but am truly confused at their personal political choices.

manthou — September 18, 2011 at 8:12 a.m. ( | suggest removal


Hey you guys, look at this... This is great !!!

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/44565503/ns/world_news-asia_pacific/#.TnYJ9tQyGSo

hawkeye — September 18, 2011 at 8:13 a.m. ( | suggest removal


Don't know if any of you caught this but thought I would share.. Looks like this will be heading forward especially if President gets his jobs/construction bill passed..
http://blog.oregonlive.com/mapesonpolitics/2011/09/spurred_by_business_and_labor.html#comments

vanwadreamer — September 18, 2011 at 8:14 a.m. ( | suggest removal


alleycat — September 18, 2011 at 7:24 a.m.

Well worth the reads:

A People's History of the United States: 1492-Present (P.S.)
by Howard Zinn http://www.powells.com/biblio/18-9780060838652-0

Nickel and Dimed: On (Not) Getting By in America
Barbara Ehrenreich http://www.powells.com/biblio/17-9780805063882-10

This Land Is Their Land: Reports from a Divided Nation
by Barbara Ehrenreich http://www.powells.com/biblio/17-9780805088403-1

A Profile of the Working Poor, 2000
U.S. Department of Labor http://www.bls.gov/cps/cpswp2000.htm

A Profile of the Working Poor, 2008
U.S. Department of Labor
http://www.bls.gov/cps/cpswp2008.pdf

A Profile of the Working Poor, 2009
U.S. Department of Labor
http://www.bls.gov/cps/cpswp2009.pdf

Wealth, Income, and Power
by G. William Domhoff
September 2005 (updated July 2011)
http://sociology.ucsc.edu/whorulesamerica/power/wealth.html

mr_basil_seal — September 18, 2011 at 8:15 a.m. ( | suggest removal


mangoboy — September 18, 2011 at 7:57 a.m

Seriously? Class war between us and the top 10%? You mean there isn't one already? It's just not organized well.... yet.

hawkeye — September 18, 2011 at 8:16 a.m. ( | suggest removal


**Camden: Medical marijuana rules confuse**

It's confusing because, apparently, some folks reading comprehension is below par. There's nothing, nothing at all, in section 403 (collective gardens) that hints at a "facility."

What it does is, expressly allow three to ten people to join resources to provide the amount of cannabis normally afforded any three "patients." No store front. No dispensing.

I am currently in the process of soliciting (free) legal consultation so that I have the knowledge required to file an injunction (uh, er something) against the Vancouver City Council's moratorium.

A collective garden is NOT a business. A collective garden does NOT require licensing and/or registration. The moratoriums placed by the various municipalities are obviously outside of their authority.

The ACLU has turned me down. I've a corrospondence sent off to the Cannabis Defense Coalition requesting consultation in the matter. If I can't get any help then I suppose I'll have to go it alone. I've already begun my studies... (see rule 65: preliminary injunction)

Drift — September 18, 2011 at 8:23 a.m. ( | suggest removal


***America: From Steinbeck and Guthrie to Paul***

The real-life descendants of those once-noble characters they championed and romanticized will soon enough be living in their own dustbowl with no more opportunity then their ancestors. Even those hapless citizens of Hooverville weren't as ruthlessly ridiculed as untouchables and lepers by their corporate bosses and indifferent government - and certainly not by a newly emerging and fragile middle class. Of course, many on Wall Street were busy jumping out of windows or soon took up space in the next shack over. Not so today when an ever-more avaricious ruling class redefines "shared sacrifice" as "I'll (deliberately) cause the problem and you'll suffer." Yet, our current group of dust-bowler victims not only sides with their oppressors, but fancies themselves just as upwardly-mobile; this at the very moment reality is sending their hopes, and children’s futures, hurtling toward oblivion. While the prairie fires burn out of control, they expect God to start passing the water buckets while simultaneously chanting the mantra of self-sufficiency.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/09/17/1017797/-America:-From-Steinbeck-and-Guthrie-to-Paul?via=spotlight

mr_basil_seal — September 18, 2011 at 8:49 a.m. ( | suggest removal


Goodness gracious, there's a lot of interesting reading this morning in the Cellar! Hawkeye, the link you provided truly is an eye opener when it comes to the world of "Green Energy," huh!

Vanwadreamer, thanks for the link.

Basil...I just checked out two of your links on the post at 8:15 am...doing a comparison of the 2000 and 2009 working poor profiles. All I can say is....

Wow, talk about an eye opener...and didn't the number of those living at the poverty level just rise again this last month???

sigh.......

goldenoldie — September 18, 2011 at 8:54 a.m. ( | suggest removal


mr_basil_seal — September 18, 2011 at 7:07 a.m.

"Ah, An an attempt at attacking the messenger rather than the substance......."

What substance? His major example isn't even running for anything, and even if she was, her opinion can hardly be considered indicative of the party.

frobert — September 18, 2011 at 9:01 a.m. ( | suggest removal


frobert — September 18, 2011 at 9:01 a.m.

"*What substance?*"

"We need to emphasise why the scientific process is such a reliable generator of knowledge - with its respect for evidence, for scepticism, for consistency of approach, for the constant testing of ideas."

mr_basil_seal — September 18, 2011 at 9:11 a.m. ( | suggest removal


**Why There Are Protests On Wall Street: Their Actions Impoverished More Than 60 Million People**
By Zaid Jilani

While many of the conservative defenders of Wall Street may be quick to portray protests against the American financial establishment as driven by envy of its wealth or far-left ideologies, the truth is that people have a very simple reason to be angry — because Wall Street’s actions made tens of millions of people dramatically poorer through no fault of their own. In 2010, the International Monetary Fund and World Bank conducted studies of the effects of the global recession — caused largely by Wall Street financial instruments that were poorly regulated by government policies — and found that the recession threw 64 million people into extreme poverty"

http://thinkprogress.org/economy/2011/09/18/321844/why-people-protest-wall-street/

mr_basil_seal — September 18, 2011 at 9:15 a.m. ( | suggest removal


vanwadreamer @ 8:14 am: I saw that link on Oregonlive yesterday and it caught my attention, too.

I am so convinced that the bridge project with light rail is a done deal that we just purchased a Fannie Mae-owned home on the proposed light rail line downtown. If it goes through, it will be converted to a cute office space for my spouse's business to join the others on the street. If it does not go through, it will be an equally cute, clean rental home for someone that is near Clark College, Marshall Center, Uptown Village, Downtown, the proposed stadium (!?) etc.

If the whole thing fizzles, so be it. But I don't think so right now. I am glad that the Republican and Democratic candidates vying for David Wu's office are showing agreement, for a change.

manthou — September 18, 2011 at 9:24 a.m. ( | suggest removal


mr_basil_seal — September 18, 2011 at 8:49 a.m.

Did you even watch the debate this article references?

Ron Paul never said that the medical profession should or would let anyone die. When the inappropriate question was asked by the moderator the audience didn't cheer, a couple of people heckled.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7BXTKr...

Also as the article referenced Woody Guthrie,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7BXTKr...

frobert — September 18, 2011 at 9:25 a.m. ( | suggest removal


Basil

Out of curiosity do you believe that Obama was more deserving of the Nobel prize than George Mitchell?

frobert — September 18, 2011 at 9:39 a.m. ( | suggest removal


Sorry wrong link on Arlo Guthrie

http://www.wnd.com/?pageId=45814

frobert — September 18, 2011 at 9:41 a.m. ( | suggest removal



frobert — September 18, 2011 at 9:39 a.m.

*Somehow Nobel prizewinner doesn't mean what it used to.
frobert — September 17, 2011 at 3:39 p.m.*

mr_basil_seal — September 18, 2011 at 9:45 a.m. ( | suggest removal


frobert — September 18, 2011 at 9:25 a.m.

Are you that sure the author was referencing what you claim was being referenced?

Wrong Guthrie, btw.... Gee, what logical fallacy is that?

mr_basil_seal — September 18, 2011 at 10:06 a.m. ( | suggest removal


kn_d- No. I was not referencing a small island in the pacific. But since you mentioned Japan, with our military presence being what it is, inter-racial relationships are a bit more accepted overall, especially with the younger set. On a personal level I was referring to much of Europe.

Why is it you so called "constitutional purists" see the world through rose 'colored' glasses when it suits your needs? From tar baby remarks to accusations of being Kenyon born, your logic and statements regarding this is absurd and defies reality.

On Sarah...which I will go into more depth a bit later, I'm surprised. All the issues that are happening which you don't post on...you choose to take on Sarah's alleged adultery and illegal drug use.

As to Bill Clinton...he never claimed to champion "conservative values". I won't give Bill a pass on things unethical...I wish those on the right felt that way about those who have championed their causes and led their party.

nailingit — September 18, 2011 at 10:07 a.m. ( | suggest removal


The dumbing down of the Nobel prize committee..HAHAHA.

The class war which Eric is threatening us with, what is that? If you raise taxes on the rich, they will cut the gruel rations in half to the poor?

But, we earned our money, power, position, and status on our own, per the U.S. Constitution. You cannot take it away!

Wrong again...you were given a PRIVILEGE to prosper in the Land of he Free, and how do you repay the privilege? By grudgingly paying your taxes, as little as the law allows and then some, or by responsibly reinvesting in the American Dream? You have the choice. Isn't that what freedom is all about.

mangoboy — September 18, 2011 at 10:08 a.m. ( | suggest removal


Fro-
Why did the president win the Noble Prize?

vanwadreamer — September 18, 2011 at 10:15 a.m. ( | suggest removal


mangoboy @ 10:08 am: Your last paragraph above deserves a replay:

"...you were given a PRIVILEGE to prosper in the Land of he Free, and how do you repay the privilege? By grudgingly paying your taxes, as little as the law allows and then some, or by responsibly reinvesting in the American Dream? You have the choice. Isn't that what freedom is all about."

Might I repeat another quote?

"To those whom much is given, much is expected.”
― John F. Kennedy, The Uncommon Wisdom of JFK: A Portrait in His Own Words

manthou — September 18, 2011 at 10:21 a.m. ( | suggest removal


You know it is just fine if we avoid taxes which our dysfunctional government sucks out of us. The huge question is, what do we do with our wealth? Use it to acquire more wealth? I have always wanted this, I have always wanted that, I deserve this, so and so is wealthy and he has one, etc. Human nature?

mangoboy — September 18, 2011 at 10:24 a.m. ( | suggest removal


Bill Gates lives in the biggest mansion in Seattle, on the shore of Lake Washington. Nice digs. But to justify his lifestyle, he does a little charity work, to assure his place in heaven, just a little insurance. But can you hedge your bets with your soul?

Just as a pedophile priest does not want to acknowledge he is breaking the greatest commandment of all, he hedges his bet by giving heartfelt, rousing homilies, visits the sick, comforts the divorced.

Just like fatso who looses a few pounds, then rewards his good behavior by ordering chocolate mountain lava cake with whipped cream. I deserve it! I'm entitled! Good job...

mangoboy — September 18, 2011 at 10:33 a.m. ( | suggest removal


Some people, mangoboy, actually re-invest in their communities and choose to live simply, BELOW their means, rather than genuflect to the luxury Acquisitive Goddess.

Clark County has been blessed with people of wealth who put their profits back in the local economy. Some of them are actually Democrats. :)

manthou — September 18, 2011 at 10:34 a.m. ( | suggest removal


I just don't share your total cynicism on the wealthy, mangoboy, or on Bill Gates specifically.

What are ya gonna do with a government who helps protect their tax breaks? The voters elect our legislators, so I have to assume they are OK with it. Afterall, the wealth is gonna trickle down now, isn't it.

I put the blame on underinformed voters who truly vote their aspirations and not their interests.

manthou — September 18, 2011 at 10:44 a.m. ( | suggest removal


I imagine endless miles of middle income, two wage earner homes in the suburbs, with one SUV and one semi-luxury car in the garage. The streets are deserted. Each homeowner returns to the cave each night, spending many hours with electronic devices. This is the American Dream for most people, yet it seems to be "unsustainable." There are very few communities being designed to reflect real world realities of income and global resource scarcity. So not only is the uppercrust living beyond its needs, most of the rest of us are as well.

A well educated, multicultural, car free village with a medical clinic for all residents is infinitly preferable to what we have now. A retirement community with all ages, except without obnoxious teenagers! send all the teenagers away to inner city colleges in other countries to get their degrees. Now THAT would be "Nirvana..."

mangoboy — September 18, 2011 at 11:02 a.m. ( | suggest removal


nailingit: Here is something that I know you will enjoy. Dick Cheney apparently suggested that Hillary Clinton consider running against President Obama in 2012 (I think she should JOIN him as his VP pick, for what that's worth).

Here is hubby Bill's reaction to that:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/09/18/bill-clinton-dick-cheney-hillary-2012_n_968532.html

Always the politician, that Bill.......

manthou — September 18, 2011 at 11:05 a.m. ( | suggest removal


"Bill Gates lives in the biggest mansion in Seattle, on the shore of Lake Washington. Nice digs. But to justify his lifestyle, he does a little charity work, to assure his place in heaven, just a little insurance. But can you hedge your bets with your soul?" Mangoboy, oh boy, oh boy, oh boy

Are you kidding me with this?

The Gates Foundation GIVES money to so many people and groups, before you dis them, you better educate yourself.

http://www.gatesfoundation.org/Pages/home.aspx

hawkeye — September 18, 2011 at 11:54 a.m. ( | suggest removal


All the charity work will not fix the "system" All of Bills billions if given charitably to the government would make a tiny dent in our national debt. Funny how the Feds have all kinds of programs for the poor, yet you cannot check off on your taxes where the money should go. Only to fund political campaigns!

mangoboy — September 18, 2011 at 12:37 p.m. ( | suggest removal


mangoboy — September 18, 2011 at 12:37 p.m.

Yea, and YOU would probably complain if you were hung with a NEW rope.

hawkeye — September 18, 2011 at 12:43 p.m. ( | suggest removal



As a percentage of GNP, Hawk, what does the U.S. give, compared to all other developed nations?

Remember the parable, giving from your need, rather than your abundance?

Reckoning coming....simplify your life. get rid of all junk. downsize. retire and work for social justice. And throw a monkey wrench into a cog of the consumption based economy.

mangoboy — September 18, 2011 at 1:02 p.m. ( | suggest removal


I forgot you are already retired. I don't want to get called a moron HAHAHA. Anyway, we live in the greatest country on earth. lets not kill the goose that laid the golden egg. "Starve the Pigs," instead.

mangoboy — September 18, 2011 at 1:11 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Sweden – 1.12%
Norway – 1.06%
Luxembourg – 1.04%
PAKISTAN – 1.00%
Denmark – 0.88%
Netherlands – 0.82%
Belgium – 0.55%
Finland – 0.54%
Ireland – 0.54%
United Kingdom – 0.52%
France- 0.47%
Spain – 0.46%
Switzerland – 0.45%
Germany – 0.35%
Canada – 0.30%
Austria – 0.30%
Australia – 0.29%
New Zealand – 0.28%
Portugal – 0.23%
United States – 0.21%
(Charity Navigator)
How can a Muslim nation be more Christian than "One nation under God"?
Look at Pakistan, one of the poorest countries in the world, occupied by all those radical Muslims. How can a Muslim nation be more Christian than "One nation under God." Does not compute...

mangoboy — September 18, 2011 at 1:23 p.m. ( | suggest removal


manthou @ 11:05...I watched Dick make those remarks and thought along the same lines. It's unfortunate that we have a president, that after the better part of three years, hasn't made his mark as to what he believes in, and this is an issue. There is still time for someone to primary Obama, and it still might be a good thing to do, if the candidate is to the left of Obama (which would be most Democrats). It sounds as though he's running in the right direction as of late...it's still a wait and see situation. I expect nothing so I won't be disappointed.:)) (kinda like Tiny Tim at Christmas) much hope...but the reality of the past is the buzzkill.

On Ms Palin @ 7:27...I totally get where you are coming from. Accept I don't have to reflect back to my youth to find much indiscretion! I suppose it's all in the eyes of the beholder somewhat. What some find acceptable in their world, many would not in their own. And vice versa. I believe in a non-judgemental approach, regardless of who it is. Well...almost...

When it comes to religious & political leaders, who preach a doctrine of hate and intolerance. Then, when it comes to taking personal responsibility for their own actions, they claim a different standard applies. When Laura Schlessinger was being condemned for repeatedly using the 'N' word, Sarah tweeted..."don't back down, reload!" Sarah trumps so-called conservative values (if it's true and so far no denial on the specifics to include the voice of Glenn Rice) while she has a 6 month affair with her husbands partner. Then she champions same sex marriage as being immoral. It's as strange as Bristol being the poster child for abstinence, while tending to her out of wedlock child. When her other daughter called a class member a faggot on line she was defended by Sarah, on line. So many examples of absolute hypocrisy it's baffling. These are just a couple that come to mind.

The learning experience of life never ends, we grow every day of our lives, it's the direction it takes is what matters. I know I'm preaching to the choir on this! Of any poster on this site, you are hands down the most rational and responsible person that posts. And most likely I agree with you 90% of the time. The other 9% I'm most likely wrong and need to listen, but on this.......when a fire breathing dragon, hell bent for societal failure start setting fires they have burning in their own backyard is when I condemn. In a sense I guess you might call it "righteous indignation".

This person was a hair away from the Vice Presidency. A breath away from being the moster way of thinking, her thought processes, she has earned the title, "tea party darling".I believe this type of hypocrisy should be exposed. And for the future, and those studying politics, history, American culture..etc., events such as this book speak of, if true, should be historical to a point. If not true, then a good lesson will be learned for a journalistic ethics class.

nailingit — September 18, 2011 at 1:26 p.m. ( | suggest removal


last paragraph botchily edited to bring down the character count. Should read a breath away from being arguably the most powerful person in the world. These irresponsible choices the Republican party gives the public to vote presidential election after presidential election is just amazing! Perry? Bachman?...The republican party should hang it's head in shame.

manthou @ 10:44..."I put the blame on underinformed voters who truly vote their aspirations and not their interests." Well said. 2010 was a prime example. Even though many of us warned people to vote responsibly and not get caught up with the feeling of anarchy, it still brought us this congressional reign of terror. I'm glad MSNBC has become a force in the news arena. A counter to the propaganda on Fox will help much. As ratings and time continue on.

nailingit — September 18, 2011 at 1:41 p.m. ( | suggest removal


mangoboy- Why disparage wealth? Without it there would be no barometer for the poor! Gates, Turner, Buffet and others give much to charity and take an active role in fighting worldwide disease and poverty. They use much of their money to benefit others...and that's a good thing.

This issue as with most takes targeted condemnation on those you believe are abusing the system as you see it. IMO.

nailingit — September 18, 2011 at 1:49 p.m. ( | suggest removal


As a percentage of GNP, Hawk, what does the U.S. give, compared to all other developed nations? Mangoboy....

Give to who? Other countries or to the poor or who? Without some kind of reference, all those numbers mean nothing.

hawkeye — September 18, 2011 at 2 p.m. ( | suggest removal


kn_d @ 11:02...I amend my remark to include Republicans in all area's of the country. I don't care to break down %. I don't know if I could. I'm sure the good ol' boys up north have just as much hate as those good ol' boys in the south, and other places. Marilyn Davenport ring a bell? Even Cal isn't exempt. Your link doesn't speak to the issue at hand in the least. Seems like you so called "constitutional purists" have not a clue about a 21st century democracy.

nailingit — September 18, 2011 at 3:47 p.m. ( | suggest removal


21st century democracy looks like this:

1% of the population controls the wealth, and as such, the media. THe rest of us get whatever crumbs, jobs, politicians, even laws (and it follows, "rights") they bestow. We will be fed crap convincing us all is good, and most will eat it up and figure it's an honorable sacrifice for the good of the country, when it's not, but it's real good for the capitalists.

The capitalists even 3 or 4 decades ago made money off of sound investments in generally American investments that created jobs, economic growth etc. Those days are gone. Today's capitalists make money off of money and/or transactions-producing nothing, including jobs. The wealth becomes even more consolidated, to our chagrin and their greedy delight. The politicians are their pawns, with neither the will nor the ability to change one damn thing. I'd like to think things will improve, but I truly expect to see things worsen to the point where we'll all be fighting for everything. The capitalists won't give a rat's patooy as long as we are at each other's throats and not theirs.

mrd — September 18, 2011 at 4:19 p.m. ( | suggest removal


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_...

"Official Development Assistance"

mangoboy — September 18, 2011 at 4:26 p.m. ( | suggest removal


"This issue as with most takes targeted condemnation"

Absolutely right. We have to discriminate on some basis, using a matrix of socially responsible criterion for businesses. Capitalism is not necessarily bad, depending on the company, if it is responsible for the products it creates, the care it provides its employees, its impact on the environment, where it invests its profits, and so on. As a socially responsible investor, we can accept a lower rate of return, in exchange for peace of mind. Most of us are complicit in capitalism , by going by only one measure-return on investment. So we have to become enlightened capitalists.

mangoboy — September 18, 2011 at 4:46 p.m. ( | suggest removal


alleycat — September 18, 2011 at 1:53 p.m.

CLASSIC!!! It had me smilin' the whole time through the video!!!

..

nailingit - September 18, 2011 at 1:26 p.m.

Looks like my rather lengthy posts are becoming contagious. (s)

goldenoldie — September 18, 2011 at 5:03 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Well Allen, I guess it's safe to say I don't have to be exposed to whatever he's writing on his Facebook wall. I don't go onto Facebook. Don't have a Facebook account and don't want one either...but thanks for the warning.

...and Allen...

Thanks.

goldenoldie — September 18, 2011 at 5:21 p.m. ( | suggest removal


"In my view, getting folks back to work is rarely done from behind a desk in Washington, D.C."

I'll have to agree with JHB on that one. Glad to see she's viewing the president's Jobs Bill in a good light. Good timing on her part with setting up this jobs fair...before President Obama made his speech, wouldn't you say??? It shows a camaraderie blooming in DC. Maybe there's hope yet.

goldenoldie — September 18, 2011 at 5:26 p.m. ( | suggest removal


mangoboy @ 4:46...your post made sense to me. That troubles me on some level. :))

nailingit — September 18, 2011 at 6:39 p.m. ( | suggest removal


alleycat — September 18, 2011 at 6:51 a.m.

Re: space cadet kn_dalai:

Once again, your comments are so bizarre, as to leave one wondering just what you are refering to.

Certainly not to anything which I have posted.

Please do continue strumming your upper and lower lips with with your right index finger. (unless you are left handed of course, then do just the opposite).

kn_dalai — September 18, 2011 at 7:26 p.m. ( | suggest removal


OK Mango, read on. Sure it's a smaller percentage but it's a larger amount than anyone, which I think is way too much. Charity begins at home. You take care of your own before everyone else. Or is that too selfish for you?

United States – $28.67 billion
France – $12.43 billion
Germany – $11.98 billion
United Kingdom – $11.50 billion
Japan – $9.48 billion
Spain – $6.57 billion
Netherlands – $6.43 billion
Sweden – $4.55 billion
Norway – $4.09 billion
Canada – $4.01 billion
Italy – $3.31 billion
Denmark – $2.81 billion
Australia – $2.76 billion
Belgium – $2.60 billion
Switzerland – $2.31 billion
Finland – $1.29 billion
Austria – $1.15 billion
Ireland – $1.00 billion
South Korea – $0.82 billion
Greece – $0.61 billion
Portugal – $0.51 billion
Luxembourg – $0.40 billion
New Zealand – $0.31 billion

hawkeye — September 18, 2011 at 7:34 p.m. ( | suggest removal


> Seems like you so called "constitutional purists" have not a clue about a 21st century democracy.
nailingit — September 18, 2011 at 3:47 p.m.

Perhaps you could explain just what "21st century democracy" means. I suspect that this may be at the heart of the political differences between Left and Right.

kn_dalai — September 18, 2011 at 7:56 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Mr. Nails.

I am hardly a Sarah Palin political supporter. Thereby rendering your post of 10:07 a.m. quite suspect.

I do not recall that I have even once before referred to Sarah Palin. However, with your unrelenting and vitriolic attacks against S. Palin, perhaps you are projecting your own psyche onto me.

However, the truth is the truth. I find it wholly unacceptable to attempt to sway opinion by lies. It is the reason behind my post of 11:11 p.m. September 17, 2011.

kn_dalai — September 18, 2011 at 8:30 p.m. ( | suggest removal


kn_d - A bit unreasonable of a request, don't you think? Like summarizing a war before it's been fought. What I well say to address it is...America was so much different back in the day. The realities of a global economy, civil rights, wars, diversity of people, various religions and those who follow them. How many of our founding fathers had links to burning witches around that time? My God man...we don't burn witches anymore, but we have our share of "slave" owners today. Corporations getting it done for pennies rather than employ in America. The constitution as you see it (I believe, although I'm really not sure what you believe. Paul as Pres would outlaw/compromise women's rights at the federal level, in turn allow states to imprison women and the doctors who perform abortions. I still think Paul is a religious fraud) should be adhered to by the letter and without nuance. Like the Orthodox Jews and the old testament?

21st Century democracy, to this point, is starting out to be predicated on greed and political corruption in the highest levels of government. i.e. Citizens United. Why is it you "constitutional purists" aren't upset with decisions such as this.

Do you think this was the intent of our founding fathers? Perhaps it was. Land Barons, slave owners...Washington had over three hundred I believe.

If this was the intent of some of our founding fathers than I say screw them. At least enough people were involved with the shaping of our country...not like we have today..a "Super Congress" of 12. Judge, jury and executioner.

nailingit — September 18, 2011 at 8:50 p.m. ( | suggest removal


...and kn_d, @ 10:07 I stated surprise and no more. Relax. I don't recall a time either, hence, the surprise. As far as psyche projections, is that anything like astral projection? :))

Didn't Paul sign a pledge not to appoint or support any appointee to a cabinet position or higher if they did not adhere to certain standards in regards to re-productive rights? Abortion off the table or no one need apply. Some freedom lover Paul is.

nailingit — September 18, 2011 at 9:04 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Just what 'unreasonable request' is that?

Your assertion of "greed and political corruption" is predicated on certain asumptions of the Left, and is in no way unique to the 21st century.

kn_dalai — September 18, 2011 at 9:10 p.m. ( | suggest removal


What assumptions? Please no political rhetoric. The unreasonable request to explain 21st century democracy...but I gave it a shot. Kn-d of.

nailingit — September 18, 2011 at 9:13 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Allen @ 9:11. I believe Ms Herrera and her staff realize she's in way over her head. That's why Boehner and the fundraiser. Someone out front to BS in that suave Washington manner that big donors are used to. To have a town hall when a good percentage of the people attending are not only more focused, but smarter on the issues must be quite intimidating. After listening to her last town hall on the phone (it was a little cool because my question was #2 to her about Grovers Pledge) it was clear she just doesn't have it. Not saying that to insult her, but she..just doesn't have it. Her first town hall nothing was expected, she hasn't grown into the job very well. IMO

nailingit — September 18, 2011 at 9:22 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Mr. Nails,

So just what does "21st century democracy" mean?

kn_dalai — September 18, 2011 at 10:03 p.m. ( | suggest removal


@10:03...thought that was settled. You ask a lot of questions but don't return in kn_d.

So tell me for once...what do you believe in? Outside of critiquing what others say.

Was that the intent of the founding fathers? To corporatize and privatize the political and financial structure of our country? ref.@ 8:50. Are you in agreement with Citizens United? ref. @ 8:50. What about Ron Paul's social engineering/infringement issues? ref. @ 9:04 How many of our founding fathers had links to witch burning? ref. @ 8:50 What "certain assumptions of the left" ref. @ 9:13.... You seem to delight in critiquing others positions, how about critiquing your own?

nailingit — September 18, 2011 at 10:54 p.m. ( | suggest removal


...and you left Allen @ 9:15 questions unanswered also. Give and take bro. Not like the "Lamestream" (I was a little taken back that you used Sarahspeak @ 11:11) Tea Party politicians that want everything...but give up nothing. :))

nailingit — September 18, 2011 at 11:04 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Allen — September 18, 2011 at 9:11 p.m.

Allen, could you please list the numbers of town halls and by whom which you've seen by any politician in the past year? There's a trend going on right now...a trend of violent threats of injury to the politicians. I may be wrong but I think for the most part, they are ALL staying low key.

goldenoldie — September 19, 2011 at 6:16 a.m. ( | suggest removal


LOL, Allen. Your statement just flew this question into my mind and I wanted to share it with you....

"Which crook???"

goldenoldie — September 19, 2011 at 8:54 a.m. ( | suggest removal


You're keeping me smilin' this morning, Allen.

goldenoldie — September 19, 2011 at 9:27 a.m. ( | suggest removal


this place is beginning to remind me of congress-

a lot of name-calling and chest-thumping, but not a whiff of collaboration or cooperation.

where are the ideas that CAN BE IMPLEMENTED to deal with an elitist president and power-entrenched congress?

why are we not flooding newspapers and television stations when the constitution is ignored and more power is shoveled to congress from the states?

where are you brave posters when the union takes hostages again, turns over more grain trucks, tears out more tracks? there's a reason jimmy hoffa was routinely linked to the mafia, and things haven't changed much.

what happened to all you free speech advocates when christians and first-responders were not allowed at the 9/11 dedication?

i'll keep praying othersise, but it looks like we've already lost our land of the free and home of the brave.

just go get another doughnut and some more coffee. i'm sure that'll give you enough time to come up with an attack on me, instead of attacking the issues.

DeeLittle — September 24, 2011 at 6:46 a.m. ( | suggest removal


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