Open forum, Dec 10-16



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Welcome to a new week, everybody. Looks like the Seahawks pecked away at the Cardinals this time around. ***58-0!!!*** Go Hawks!!!

Drift, I wanted to continue the discussion from last week's forum and respond to your comment on December 9, 2012 at 7:34 p.m. I have no problem having a medical professional prescribing drugs to their patients. What I do have a problem with regards to your comment is simple. You speak of the medical professional providing the "required" dose to the patient, but in the case of Heroin as you had discussed, isn't it the job of the medical professional to help the patient eliminate their addiction, not continue the dosage...and isn't it also the patient who would seek the professional help to eliminate the addiction? You can always lead a horse to water...but you can't make them drink it. You said it yourself with regards to your relative that her fate is in her hands.

Also...for all we know, the patient isn't seeking help from more than one medical professional (since not all medical offices are connected onto one medical record system as of yet) and continuing with their addiction OR they're still getting the garbage off the streets.

As I'd said before, this is a reckless suggestion in my opinion.

goldenoldie — December 10, 2012 at 6:32 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Frobert, I totally agree with your comment from last week's forum on December 9, 2012 at 6:04 p.m. when you say it's their decision, not yours, mine or the government's!!!


roger — December 9, 2012 at 6:38 p.m.

Thinking about what you said...and the recent problems with certain pharmaceutical companies...

...and the "safer" doses...

Not sure if it's any better than what they'd be getting off the streets. As far as dirty needles...

Since I have no affiliation with those who use, I can't say for sure if this is still a problem today since sterile needles are (supposedly) readily available.

goldenoldie — December 10, 2012 at 6:38 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Joe nails it. Kind of. It's all about policy, but this does speak to the GOP electorate idiot realm.

Take note conservatives in the basement as well as topside, your bullying loud voices are hurting your cause.

It's clear Glenn Beck & cronies have a hold on at least a few in here. Quit giving them your time and money and think for yourselves.

This punditry hero worship from the right is fascinating, but hurting our country's political process.

**Joe Scarborough: Conservative Media Is 'Destroying' Republican Party (VIDEO)**

Joe Scarborough lashed out at some conservatives, particularly pundits, for "destroying" the Republican party on Monday.

The MSNBC host was reacting to Bill Kristol's recent op-ed, which alleged that parts of American **conservativism have become "a racket."** Scarborough could not agree more.

"You have a lot of people running around, saying harsh things that sell books and push ratings and lose elections," he said on Monday. **“Conservatism is a racket for a lot of people to get very, very rich. With no thought of winning elections."**

He blamed the **"anti-intellectualism of the past decade"** for what he said were the views that the GOP has become known for, as well as the lack of "intelligent" ideas coming from the party.

"These type of people who have the ability to make... the compassionate conservative argument — **they're thrown to the side because they don't sound enough like Glenn Beck or a blogger," Scarborough opined.**

Mike Barnicle wondered if it was possible for someone to break through the "loudness and the shrillness" of voices on both sides.

"Do you think any of these people in talk radio, **if they're punched in the face by a Republican nominee,** do you think they would push back?" Scarborough said. "No, **they're cowards, they're bullies. Punch them in the face and they'll back off."**

He said that conservative media personalities would only lead the GOP to a "permanent minority." Scarborough continued, "Who are they to say anything about what the future of this party and of this movement is? They're making tens of millions of dollars. They're getting rich and they're not really hurting this country because they're irrelevant... **but they are destroying the Republican party everyday."**;=Politics

nailingit — December 10, 2012 at 7:36 a.m. ( | suggest removal

"As I'd said before, this is a reckless suggestion in my opinion."

I'm feeling lazy today, goldie. I'm gonna take the easy way out and refer you to a BBC article.

Drift — December 10, 2012 at 7:54 a.m. ( | suggest removal

nailingit: Good opening this morning at 7:36! News-as-entertainment flirts with ethical violations of best practices journalism. The public really needs to understand how manipulative this is and refuse to support it. I am glad the R's are starting to question its value.

I love this website that is devoted to the TAO of journalism: Transparent about who you are; Accountable for your mistakes; Open to other points of view:

[link text][1]


manthou — December 10, 2012 at 8:38 a.m. ( | suggest removal

manthou- Thank you for the TAO website. Great pledge and donation worthy. Hopefully this train of thought is spreading faster than a Glenn Beck conspiracy! :)

*I am glad the R's are starting to question its value.*

This election has had so many great takeaway's, a lasting wake up media call from the right would rank as one of the best. I hope it continues.

nailingit — December 10, 2012 at 9 a.m. ( | suggest removal

*I'll have a shrimp cocktail added to my breaded mushrooms order please.*

**Frank Schnarr, Frankie's Sports Bar & Grill Owner, Welcomes Pot Smoking In Bar**

OLYMPIA, Wash. Dec 10 (Reuters) - Thanks to a successful ballot initiative last month, Washington state residents can legally smoke marijuana in the privacy of their living rooms as of Thursday.

When that gets old, bar owner Frank Schnarr suggests, area stoners have another option: grab a booth at Frankie's Sports Bar & Grill in Olympia and toke up there.

Schnarr, 62, says he is not acting out of a love of cannabis - he says he hasn't smoked the stuff since he was a soldier stationed in Southeast Asia in the 1970s. Rather, he's looking for new sources of income.

"I stay up at night," he said. "I'm about to lose my business. So I've got to figure out some way to get people in here."

Schnarr, who waged an ultimately successful battle with local and state officials over Washington's 2006 smoking ban, appears to be the first restaurant or bar owner in the state to test the recently expanded limits on recreational marijuana use.

So, is he breaking the law?

Federal, state and local officials appear unsure. Or if they are, they're not saying.


In order to flout it, Schnarr renamed his establishment's smoking-friendly second floor as "Friends of Frankie's," a private room limited to those who pay a $10 annual membership fee.

A full range of alcoholic beverages are for sale and the room is staffed by comely bartenders and cocktail waitresses. They are volunteers entitled to reimbursement for travel expenses and childcare but otherwise making their living off tips.

"Frank's ahead of the curve on (allowing marijuana use)," says Shawn Newman, Schnarr's attorney. "A lot of other taverns, bars and restaurants would like to do this, but they didn't have enough chutzpah to fight the smoking ban so they're locked into non-smoking operations."

Schnarr says "Friends of Frankie's" has over 10,000 members, with upwards of 40 joining in the two days since he announced that marijuana would be welcome.

To help appeal to his new target market, Schnarr has introduced a $4.20 appetizer menu - included are breaded shrimp, breaded cheese sticks and breaded mushrooms - and he is toying with the possibility of opening a medical marijuana dispensary on a nearby property.

nailingit — December 10, 2012 at 9:49 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Condoleezza Rice, BA at nineteen, MS at twenty PhD at twenty six, no Rachel isn't even close.

frobert — December 9, 2012 at 10:41 p.m

Funny how you think that's a measure of how smart someone is.

hawkeye — December 10, 2012 at 9:51 a.m. ( | suggest removal

IMO the next two presidential candidates should be......

Hillary Clinton and Condoleezza Rice, NOW THAT would be something to see and be part of!

ELISI — December 10, 2012 at 10:20 a.m. ( | suggest removal

hawkeye- Funny how you think that's a measure of how smart someone is.

Great reply! If Rice is a republicans idea of smart, no wonder they are in such disarray.

How soon some forget...

Why Rice will never, and should never seek the presidency. Incompetence at it's worst.

**Two Months Before 9/11, an Urgent Warning to Rice**

The July 10 meeting between Tenet, Black and Rice went unmentioned in the various reports of investigations into the Sept. 11 attacks, but it stood out in the minds of Tenet and Black as the starkest warning they had given the White House on bin Laden and al-Qaeda. Though the investigators had access to all the paperwork on the meeting, Black felt there were things the commissions wanted to know about and things they didn't want to know about.

Philip D. Zelikow, the aggressive executive director of the Sept. 11 commission and a University of Virginia professor who had co-authored a book with Rice on Germany, knew something about the July 10 meeting, but it was not clear to him what immediate action really would have meant. In 2005 Rice hired Zelikow as a top aide at the State Department.

Afterward, Tenet looked back on the meeting with Rice as a tremendous lost opportunity to prevent or disrupt the Sept. 11 attacks. Rice could have gotten through to Bush on the threat, but she just didn't get it in time, Tenet thought. He felt that he had done his job and had been very direct about the threat, but that Rice had not moved quickly. He felt she was not organized and did not push people, as he tried to do at the CIA.

Black later said, "The only thing we didn't do was pull the trigger to the gun we were holding to her head."

Read more @

nailingit — December 10, 2012 at 10:29 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Ohhh...this is too easy!!! **Definitely** a pot meet kettle moment:

"""Take note conservatives in the basement as well as topside, your bullying loud voices are hurting your cause."""

Thanks for the Mundane Monday Morning Musing!!!

goldenoldie — December 10, 2012 at 10:33 a.m. ( | suggest removal

ELISI — December 10, 2012 at 10:20 a.m.

I'd love to see that political race myself!!! I have a feeling it would be quite a close call.

goldenoldie — December 10, 2012 at 10:35 a.m. ( | suggest removal

*More from the article @ think this tragedy might have been prevented with just a smidgen of competency.*

*Please! We need to be reminded of the systemic incompetency which exists in RW foreign policy.*

*It's how we change things...*

[Tenet called Condoleezza Rice, then national security adviser, from the car and said he needed to see her right away. There was no practical way she could refuse such a request from the CIA director.

For months, Tenet had been pressing Rice to set a clear counterterrorism policy, including specific presidential orders called "findings" that would give the CIA stronger authority to conduct covert action against bin Laden. Perhaps a dramatic appearance -- Black called it an "out of cycle" session, beyond Tenet's regular weekly meeting with Rice -- would get her attention.

Tenet had been losing sleep over the recent intelligence he'd seen. There was no conclusive, smoking-gun intelligence, but there was such a huge volume of data that an intelligence officer's instinct strongly suggested that something was coming. He and Black hoped to convey the depth of their anxiety and get Rice to kick-start the government into immediate action.

He did not know when, where or how, but Tenet felt there was too much noise in the intelligence systems. Two weeks earlier, he had told Richard A. Clarke, the National Security Council's counterterrorism director: "It's my sixth sense, but I feel it coming. This is going to be the big one."]


[Tenet and Black felt they were not getting through to Rice. She was polite, but they felt the brush-off. President Bush had said he didn't want to swat at flies.

As they all knew, a coherent plan for covert action against bin Laden was in the pipeline, but it would take some time. In recent closed-door meetings the entire National Security Council apparatus had been considering action against bin Laden, including using a new secret weapon: the Predator unmanned aerial vehicle, or drone, that could fire Hellfire missiles to kill him or his lieutenants. It looked like a possible solution, but there was a raging debate between the CIA and the Pentagon about who would pay for it and who would have authority to shoot.

Besides, Rice seemed focused on other administration priorities, especially the ballistic missile defense system that Bush had campaigned on. She was in a different place.

Tenet left the meeting feeling frustrated. Though Rice had given them a fair hearing, no immediate action meant great risk. Black felt the decision to just keep planning was a sustained policy failure. Rice and the Bush team had been in hibernation too long. "Adults should not have a system like this," he said later.]

nailingit — December 10, 2012 at 10:43 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Drift — December 10, 2012 at 7:54 a.m.

Thanks for the article, Drift. It truly explains where you're coming from. It's wonderful when people post links to very credible articles! Much appreciated.

Also...the chemically-pure heroin mentioned in the article is a different composite from the junk people are getting off the streets. I mentioned's the idea of getting the people OFF the addiction. I don't see how going from one narcotic to another is the answer, though.

And drift...enjoy your lazy day. We all have those once in awhile. That is, if our schedules will allow it...8)...

goldenoldie — December 10, 2012 at 10:44 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Way to go Seahawks, great game... Big hawk fan.... What would we have called it if the game was a 51-49 game??? Some would call it a squeaker, nailbiter and others would call it a blow out or a butt kicking, hum makes one want to pause and sit back and think about it....

Joe Scarborough's relationship with the Huff Post is cozy. Why do HP editors prevent critical opinion of Scarborough from being posted? He has carte blanche on his criticism of the President, but readers can't disagree with him or question his political legacy. I.e why did he have to resign from Congress? Joe is nothing more than a blithering Idiot talk show host who wants to be heard, nothing more nothing less. It's the Liberal media looking after there own.. The liberal rags in this country print only what they want and only from there side...Obsrtuctionism is the Cornerstone of this Presidency and his media outlets...

vanwadreamer — December 10, 2012 at 10:47 a.m. ( | suggest removal

goldenoldie — December 10, 2012 at 10:35 a.m

I admire both of those ladies, both strong willed, tough and the intelligence of the two is amazing! Heck would love to see either one as pres. the other as vp!

ELISI — December 10, 2012 at 10:50 a.m. ( | suggest removal

vanwa @ 10:47


nailingit — December 10, 2012 at 10:57 a.m. ( | suggest removal

The next republican created drama we as a nation must go through. It's like watching someone else's kids fight and wondering what kind of upbringing they received.

Home schooled conservatives perhaps???

They should take a few cues from "No Drama Obama" and get to work.

**Boehner’s Biggest Threat**

nailingit — December 10, 2012 at 11:40 a.m. ( | suggest removal

**Colbert tops SC voters' Senate wish list**

Nikki Haley is one of the most unpopular Governors in the country. Only 42% of voters approve of the job she's doing to 49% who disapprove. Out of 43 sitting Governors PPP has polled on, that ranks her 35th in popularity.

Haley has pretty solid numbers within her own party. 70% of Republicans approve of the job she's doing to 22% who disapprove. But with Democrats (15/78 approval) and independents (28/57) her numbers are pretty woeful.

There is a path back to popularity for Haley though: appointing Stephen Colbert to replace Jim DeMint in the Senate. Colbert tops the wish list of who South Carolina voters would like to see join that body at 20%, followed by Tim Scott at 15%, Trey Gowdy at 14%, Jenny Sanford at 11%, Henry McMaster and Mark Sanford at 8%, Jeff Duncan and Joe Wilson at 5%, and Mick Mulvaney at 4%.

nailingit — December 10, 2012 at 11:58 a.m. ( | suggest removal

This people is exactly why nothing in DC gets done...good grief!
He really needs to consider retiring.;=yv6ljeFr-yY

ELISI — December 10, 2012 at 1:05 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Scary good. That's what those Hawks are. Scary good.

Lou Brancaccio (Columbian Staff) — December 10, 2012 at 1:07 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Scary good. That's what those Hawks are. Scary good.

Lou Brancaccio (Columbian Staff) — December 10, 2012 at 1:07 p.m

And who are you, again????

The face looks familiar but it's been sooooo long.

Oh, you weren't talking ABOUT ME! Sea-hawks, I sea.

hawkeye — December 10, 2012 at 1:19 p.m. ( | suggest removal

ELISI — December 10, 2012 at 10:50 a.m.

Again...we're in agreement. Two for two!!!


Lou...where have you been??? And where's Eric Florip? I'd sent him an email regarding the WSDOT four year budget...and not a word was heard...or read.

I'm beginning to wonder if y'all are workin' from home these days...either that or moonlighting somewhere else.

goldenoldie — December 10, 2012 at 1:39 p.m. ( | suggest removal was a blow out for sure with regards to Seattle. I don't know what came over the Arizona Cards. And yes, a score of 51-49 would have been a clincher for sure!!!


"""The next republican created drama..."""

What do you call this one created by the president this year??? He's the one who allowed the Bush Tax Cuts to continue in their present state AND he added a big chunk to the national debt with his stimulus plans...hardly putting the blame just on the R side of the 'oad, especially when all weve witnessed are BandAid fixes to a problem that has gone on for far too long by both sides including Clinton with his NAFTA Agreement signature. Yeah, that's done well for the hardworking people of the USA. Even back in the Reagan Administration when savings interest rates plummeted and Reaganomics were entered into the game...that was interesting as well. And those increase in jobs this last month...wonderful temporary retail industry jobs...hardly something a family can live on, huh! Watch the numbers plummet in January...that is, unless our president can finally pull that rabbit out of his magic hat.

It's a two-way street, Nails. Till you can fathom that concept, sir...

Your rose-colored glasses continue to fog up on you.


Funny, when we hear the term "Two Way Street," another term for a roadway...

Ever notice how the word ROAD has an R and a D on opposite ends. Must be where the politicians got their ideals in the first place. 8))

goldenoldie — December 10, 2012 at 1:54 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Clinton with his NAFTA Agreement signature.

goldenoldie — December 10, 2012 at 1:54 p.m

You do realize that the only reason he signed that was because Bush (1) went through all the work to get it done and he (actually) trusted Bush and his judgement. Mistake.

But can you imagine what the repercussions would have been had he not signed?

hawkeye — December 10, 2012 at 2:28 p.m. ( | suggest removal

What would they be??? Were getting a lower Umemployment rate due to the fact that more people have actually stopped looking and are no longer being counted, this has gone on for the past 11 months, so nothing new.

Green energy plans are still something that the government stays out of, This is a private sector investment strategy... It's way to easy for Obama to fall in love with all these green projects that go bankrupt in a short period of time.. How about a couple 500 million dollar investments gone south, I bet a few states would have like to have that money, but no it went up in smoke...

vanwadreamer — December 10, 2012 at 2:46 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Good to see you in the basement Lou B. Don't be such a stranger!

What did you think of national elections this year. Were you surprised at such decisive defeats, not only of Romney, but other races as well?

nailingit — December 10, 2012 at 3:40 p.m. ( | suggest removal

2 peas in a pod! Everything wrong with today's politics! I wonder if Glenn sold him some gold!

**Glenn Beck’s interview with Jim DeMint**

Senator Jim DeMint joined Glenn on radio this morning to discuss his decision to resign from the Senate and accept the position as the President of the Heritage Foundation. Senator DeMint, a long time favorite among true conservatives in the Republican party, explains to Glenn that he took the position to expand the influence his Constitutional principals can had on growing the conservative base.

nailingit — December 10, 2012 at 3:46 p.m. ( | suggest removal

*In the vein of journalistic integrity...*

**How the Mainstream Press Bungled the Single Biggest Story of the 2012 Campaign**

Mann and Ornstein are two longtime centrist Washington fixtures who earlier this year dramatically rejected the strictures of false equivalency that bind so much of the capital's media elite and publicly concluded that GOP leaders have become "ideologically extreme; scornful of compromise; unmoved by conventional understanding of facts, evidence and science; and dismissive of the legitimacy of its political opposition."

The 2012 campaign further proved their point, they both said in recent interviews. It also exposed how fabulists and liars can exploit the elite media's fear of being seen as taking sides.

"The mainstream press really has such a difficult time trying to cope with asymmetry between the two parties' agendas and connections to facts and truth," said Mann, who has spent nearly three decades as a congressional scholar at the centrist Brookings Institution.

"I saw some journalists struggling to avoid the trap of balance and I knew they were struggling with it -- and with their editors," said Mann. "But in general, I think overall it was a pretty disappointing performance."

"I can't recall a campaign where I've seen more lying going on -- and it wasn't symmetric," said Ornstein, a scholar at the conservative American Enterprise Institute who's been tracking Congress with Mann since 1978. Democrats were hardly innocent, he said, "but it seemed pretty clear to me that the Republican campaign was just far more over the top."

Lies from Republicans generally and standardbearer Mitt Romney in particular weren't limited to the occasional TV ads, either; the party's most central campaign principles -- that federal spending doesn't create jobs, that reducing taxes on the rich could create jobs and lower the deficit -- willfully disregarded the truth.

"It's the great unreported big story of American politics," Ornstein said.


Ornstein said his message would be this: "I understand your concerns about advertisers. I understand your concerns about being labeled as biased. But what are you there for? What's the whole notion of a free press for if you're not going to report without fear or favor and you're not going to report what your reporters, after doing their due diligence, see as the truth?

"And if you don't do that, then you can expect I think a growing drumbeat of criticism that you're failing in your fundamental responsibility.

"Your job is to report the truth. And sometimes there are two sides to a story. Sometimes there are ten sides to a story. Sometimes there's only one.

"Somebody has got to make an assessment of whether the two sides are being equally careless with their facts, or equally deliberate with their lies."

nailingit — December 10, 2012 at 4:09 p.m. ( | suggest removal

hawkeye — December 10, 2012 at 2:28 p.m.

Wasn't Carter pushing NAFTA also? On an interesting side note NAFTA never was ratified by 2/3 of the Senate.

frobert — December 10, 2012 at 4:34 p.m. ( | suggest removal

"""But can you imagine what the repercussions would have been had he not signed?"""

Those danged repercussions...things like companies with jobs HERE on US SOIL??? Inflation grinding to a halt since international competitiveness would have reduced the cost of production in order for companies to exist? THOSE kind of repercussions???

Instead, we have our very own stimulus tax dollars hard at work, providing hundreds of thousands of jobs with Green Energy Companies such as Abound Solar, Evergreen Solar, Solyndra, A123 Systems, Bright Source and several others!!! And the cost to implement solar panels into our homes...that was supposed to go down with consumer demand. Oh wait...that Green Energy Investment idea...went down the tubes as these companies alone failed with bankruptcies into the hundreds of millions, even billions.

And what about that goal of 1 million electric-vehicle sales President Obama had dreamed about??? As of 2011, only 50,000 had sold. Never mind how "green" that energy was to produce those vehicles.

Empty Dreams.

BTW...on a side note...Hawkeye, why don't you check those little packages of Christmas Candy Canes and see where they're coming from the next time you're in the stores. Remember the good old days when Candy Canes were made here in good old USA??? Yeah...there's a few companies...SMALL companies who are promoting their own...but you'll pay more for them.

It is my opinion that our economic misfortune which resulted from NAFTA wouldn't have come to fruition IF the budget was kept within a reasonable framework by the powers that be to begin with and it wouldn't have been an issue if greed wasn't even in the language of financial (in)security and global (wr)ec(k)onomics.

Speaking of beyond NAFTA...

It's pretty sad when we live in a nation which produces the most oil in the world...and it doesn't even stay here in our country, keeping energy costs down. Instead, that good old word "greed" comes into play and those who drill want better profits as do the investment companies.

goldenoldie — December 10, 2012 at 5:37 p.m. ( | suggest removal

BTW, to any of you might be a good idea to check out the official source...the US Department of Commerce website before you make that quickie decision that NAFTA has been beneficial to us. You might be surprised at the data you will find. And that is at the US Government website below:

In the Search box, just key in the words NAFTA trade and click enter. You'll then get a list and either of the first two you can click on which will provide the numbers.

goldenoldie — December 10, 2012 at 5:56 p.m. ( | suggest removal

"With much consideration and emotional discussion, the House of Representatives approved NAFTA on November 17, 1993, 234-200. The agreement's supporters included 132 Republicans and 102 Democrats. NAFTA passed the Senate 61-38. Senate supporters were 34 Republicans and 27 Democrats. Clinton signed it into law on December 8, 1993; it went into effect on January 1, 1994." Must have been many abstainers.

So, as a continuation of GH Bush (whom Clinton "trusted" to get the best deal), who's legislation is NAFTA really?

And if you think NAFTA has jack chit to do with the US budget, you're sadly mistaken. The US budget is what it is, the trade deficit is an import/export thing. Not the same.

mrd — December 10, 2012 at 7:16 p.m. ( | suggest removal

**Obama Paranoid Government Coming For His Guns**

WASHINGTON—Reflecting attitudes held throughout his personal and political life, President Barack Obama restated Thursday his long-standing fear that the U.S. government is even now putting measures in place to take his guns away.


According to President Obama, the U.S. government has for years made a concerted effort to "destroy the Second Amendment of the damned Constitution, for God's sake," while silencing the voices of gun owners such as himself who merely wish to retain the ability to protect their home and family.

"It's a slippery slope, I'm telling you—it starts with an assault weapons ban, which is a total crock, and then they use that to get their foot in the door to take away shotguns and rifles, too," said the president, adding that he keeps an assortment of handguns locked in a safe in the White House basement in case of "emergencies." "We're talking about an all-out war on our right to keep and bear arms: global gun databases, secret watch lists, bullet serialization, microstamping. It is my constitutional right to own these firearms, okay? And they can't wrench that right away from me."

"What if somebody breaks into the White House tonight?" Obama continued. "Hell, I got a prerogative to protect my wife and kids."

Seemingly obsessed with security, Obama has reportedly used the heavily fortified Oval Office as a 'lair' for most of his first term, eating and sleeping within its gun-racked walls and exiting only for necessary state business. In such cases, Obama told reporters, he will not leave without an array of concealed weapons on his person.

Beltway sources said a rifle-armed figure resembling Obama has also been seen patrolling the White House roof in recent years, wearing what appears to be forest-camouflage cargo pants, mirrored aviator sunglasses, and a sleeveless black "POW/MIA" T-shirt.

Read more @,30638/

nailingit — December 10, 2012 at 7:32 p.m. ( | suggest removal

mrd — December 10, 2012 at 7:16 p.m.

NAFTA, and other trade agreements have everything to do with the budget. Employees in good paying manufacturing jobs pay taxes, employees in minimum wage service industry jobs, collect benefits from the government. Our elected officials sold our jobs to the rich, and yes they did get paid for them.

The funniest thing about it is the liberal. still talk about how great companies like Microsoft, Apple and Intel are, even though they use mostly slave labor in Asia, and they think we should boycott Koch Industries who provide 50,000 union wage jobs here in the United States.

frobert — December 10, 2012 at 8:31 p.m. ( | suggest removal

mrd — December 10, 2012 at 7:16 p.m.

"Must have been many abstainers."

According to your numbers 434 out of 435 voting members of the House and 99 out of 100 members of the Senate voted.

I would also like to point out that it takes 67 votes in the Senate to ratify a treaty. Article II, section 2, clause 2.

frobert — December 10, 2012 at 8:38 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Article II, section 2, clause 2, of the United States Constitution. "shall have Power, by and with Advice and Consent of the Senate, to make Treaties, provided two thirds of the Senators present concur"

Also it only would have taken 66 votes to ratify NAFTA, because apparently one member was absent.

frobert — December 10, 2012 at 8:41 p.m. ( | suggest removal

i think the great o told the truth for the first time, albeit inadvertantly.

about michigan's 'right to work' vote, he said, "this isn't about the economy, it about politics".

long live michigan's right to work.

DeeLittle — December 11, 2012 at 12:54 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Here's a hearty THANK YOU to frobert — December 10, 2012 at 8:31 p.m.

Sometimes, opposing thoughts are so caught up in their political culture that when handed the rose, they find out has thorns.

goldenoldie — December 11, 2012 at 6:30 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Hawkeye (as well as mrd) might check and see just where those green energy companies I listed @5:37 pm do and have been doing business. It would be interesting to know if the stimulus funding they acquired...stayed on US soil or supported their business ventures abroad.

My fav - Evergreen Solar...used to be based in Massachusetts!!! Guess where they're located now. Jobs lost, families losing homes, people in the street...part of a major failure of the stimulus funding which went down the tubes in the amount of $5 million which sounds like chump change when it comes to the national debt...but it's a slap in the face of every US citizen when you find out the company is now operating in China.

And Solyndra??? $535 million. You know how the news reported them as longer in business??? Guess whaaaaat!!! They're still going. When you visit their website, you'll find they are a global company as well. Again...where did that $535m go??? Stateside or international???

These companies didn't get chump change to throw around. Some have moved out of the country...others "reorganized" their company finances (possibly internationally and not stateside)...and that stimulus funding came from.

Okay, by now you might be scratching your head, wondering why I'm mentioning the Stimulus funding when we spoke of NAFTA signed by Clinton. Well Hawk...figure this. NAFTA was supposed to be a positive venture for our nation as well as Mexico and Canada. Instead, the competitive edge hasn't been guess what happened!!! The Stimulus Funding came into play to help the struggling US companies...or so we thought. How many of these companies had locations globally and where did the money go? Adding insult to injury, they used OUR government bankruptcy laws to bail them out yet again! And guess who's getting the short end of the stick on this, guys???


mrd...can you see why I say NAFTA has negatively affected our national budget??? How many more bailouts are we going to have to endure...and at what cost???

goldenoldie — December 11, 2012 at 7:01 a.m. ( | suggest removal

**Oh I love it!!!** mrd, you make my job so easy today with your comment @7:16 pm*"""So, as a continuation of GH Bush (whom Clinton "trusted" to get the best deal), who's legislation is NAFTA really?

It is my opinion that as President, you cannot afford to take for granted the work of your predecessor. If you are foolish enough to blindly sign into law, a document your predecessor compiled, then you are not a competent leader and should not remain as leader. President William Jefferson Clinton knew EXACTLY what he was signing and was in FULL AGREEMENT WHEN HE SIGNED NAFTA! Stop with the blame game on this one, mrd.

An article for the deniers from one of their most favorite links, too!!!

I just found a 2011 Huffington Post link which shows nearly 700,000 jobs lost or displaced from US soil since the signing of NAFTA.

We've been struggling as a nation ever since.

goldenoldie — December 11, 2012 at 7:11 a.m. ( | suggest removal


Oh I love it!!! mrd, you make my job so easy today with your comment @7:16 pm which states *"So, as a continuation of GH Bush (whom Clinton "trusted" to get the best deal), who's legislation is NAFTA really?"*

goldenoldie — December 11, 2012 at 7:12 a.m. ( | suggest removal

**Why the Fiscal Cliff Is Causing a Nervous Breakdown on the Right**

*From Joe Scarborough to Bill Kristol to Rush Limbaugh, the post-election recriminations are getting heated on the slow march to the fiscal cliff. Howard Kurtz on why the GOP is at war with itself.*

The movement is doing a pretty good job of blowing itself up at the moment. Former allies are sniping at each other, not just over tactics but over fundamental beliefs about what conservatism means and what Republicans should stand for.


Rush Limbaugh, one of the most powerful voices on the right, is also perturbed. In his monologue Monday, posted under the heading “The Comical Floundering of the GOP,” El Rushbo describes the theory that “the Republican Party has been doing new Coke, but gradually. We have been caving on the things that identify us.” In case anyone missed the point, he adds: “The Republican Party, nobody knows what it is anymore. Whatever it used to be, it’s changing the formula.”

What should be the new and improved Republican flavor? The dilemma goes beyond taxes and spending to such issues as immigration, where the likes of Sean Hannity and Charles Krauthammer say the party should restore its standing with Hispanics by embracing amnesty or something close to it. Here too, Limbaugh and many others strongly disagree.

And what about gay marriage, now headed for the Supreme Court? The right has been awfully quiet about that, despite the dire predictions when Obama embraced the principle of same-sex marriage last spring. As conservative commentator George Will bluntly noted on This Week, “Quite literally, the opposition to gay marriage is dying. It’s old people.”

Romney’s retreat from the public stage, except for the occasional sighting at Disneyland or a Las Vegas prizefight, obviously created a GOP vacuum. One day, Paul Ryan or Marco Rubio or Jeb Bush or Chris Christie may lead the party in a different direction. But with Obama not even having been sworn in for a second term, that day is far off. Instead, Republicans are groping for answers as the slow march toward the fiscal cliff leaves them ever more divided.

Read more @

nailingit — December 11, 2012 at 7:14 a.m. ( | suggest removal

nailingit — December 11, 2012 at 7:14 a.m. have to find something negative about an opposition political party rather than looking at the problem for what it is. Never mind that the pending fiscal cliff will include a financial meltdown for all in the US.

Deniers of Fact = Ignorance

goldenoldie — December 11, 2012 at 7:24 a.m. ( | suggest removal

A fun write from Psychology Today...but oh so true!!!

**Conservatism as a Mental Illness**

*Republicans have exhibited ten telltale signs of mental illness this past year*

Published on June 12, 2012 by Professor Barry X. Kuhle, Ph.D. in Evolutionary Entertainment

This post is a response to Creationism as a mental illness by Robert Rowland Smith
In Creationism as a Mental Illness, Robert Rowland Smith argues that creationists exhibit several signs of mental illness including denial, psychosis, and inability to grasp irony.

The specter of mental illness does indeed loom large over creationists, but they are not alone. Signs of psychopathology can also be seen among their political bedfellows, conservative Republicans, especially when you consider a wide range of illness indicators. In his award-winning 2005 book Dr. James Whitney Hicks discusses 50 signs of mental illness including denial, delusion, hallucination, disordered thinking, anger, anti-social behavior, sexual preoccupation, grandiosity, general oddness, and paranoia. Now I'm no clinician, but it seems that prominent Republicans have evidenced each of these ten telltale signs of mental illness over the past year:

1) Denial: humans did not evolve; Obama is not a native-born American Christian

2) Delusion: climate is not changing

3) Hallucination: God ordained me to be President

4) Disordered Thinking: being for small government that's huge in the bedroom; being anti-contraception and anti-abortion

5) Anger: Newt Gingrich’s perpetual scowl

6) Anti-social Behavior: toward women, gays, minorities, anyone without an umbilical cord or trust fund

7) Sexual Preoccupation: a fervent compulsion to control when we can mate, with whom we can mate, and precisely how we are allowed to mate (which I lampoon in Why Do Politicians Want to Police Dick and Jane's Private Parts?)

8) Grandiosity: even Rick Santorum recognizes Gingrich’s “over the moon” grandiosity

9) General Oddness: Ron Paul

10) Paranoia: pretty much all of them, all of the time

Regrettably, the Republican who least exhibits anti-science stances is the only one who (tongue-in-cheek) acknowledges his mental illness:

nailingit — December 11, 2012 at 7:27 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Oh my goodness, oh my goodness...
The left screams about budget cuts to our defense, but yet..

US supplies Egypt with F-16 fighter jets

Mubarak signed deal, Morsi to reap benefits: 20 fighter jets courtesy of US administration. Republicans fume: Egypt yet to prove itself democratic

The US will supply Egypt with 20 F-16 fighter jets as part of a billion dollar aid package. The first four jets will be delivered on January 22, after undergoing examinations in Fort Worth, Texas.

The deal was signed in 2010 during the reign of Hosni Mubarak. But given the political instability sweeping the country, some have begun to wonder whether it is wise to donate fighter jets to an already 200 strong air force fleet.,7340,L-4318289,00.html

ELISI — December 11, 2012 at 7:33 a.m. ( | suggest removal

The Cleveland Plain Dealer (an excellent newspaper) will be cutting one third of its NEWSROOM staff and may be dropping to three days a week publication.

The Oregonian is owned by the same company.

Nailingit: I am of the opinion, for what that's worth, that news-as-entertainment is becoming more valued by the public than professional journalism.

I also am of the opinion that this has forced talented journalists and editors to sell their soul to the highest sensational bidder to keep their jobs and stay competitive with capturing and retaining readers. Those who can no longer stand to whore themselves out are trying to feed their families on their own terms by blogging, writing books, etc. I really mourn this trend.

We, as news consumers, all need to learn how to separate the noise from the signal (thank you, Nate Silver) and become excellent fact checkers to determine where the truth lies in media.

manthou — December 11, 2012 at 7:36 a.m. ( | suggest removal

For more than 40 years, Rossiter has diagnosed and treated over 1,500 patients as a board-certified clinical psychiatrist and examined more than 2,700 civil and criminal cases, both state and federal, as a forensic psychiatrist retained by numerous public offices, courts and private attorneys. He received his medical and psychiatric training at the University of Chicago.

“Based on strikingly irrational beliefs and emotions, modern liberals relentlessly undermine the most important principles on which our freedoms were founded,” says Rossiter. “Like spoiled, angry children, they rebel against the normal responsibilities of adulthood and demand that a parental government meet their needs from cradle to grave.”

“A social scientist who understands human nature will not dismiss the vital roles of free choice, voluntary cooperation and moral integrity – as liberals do,” he says. “A political leader who understands human nature will not ignore individual differences in talent, drive, personal appeal and work ethic, and then try to impose economic and social equality on the population – as liberals do. And a legislator who understands human nature will not create an environment of rules which over-regulates and overtaxes the nation’s citizens, corrupts their character and reduces them to wards of the state – as liberals do.”

ELISI — December 11, 2012 at 7:40 a.m. ( | suggest removal

part 2;

Rossiter says the liberal agenda preys on weakness and feelings of inferiority in the population by:

1. creating and reinforcing perceptions of victimization;
2.satisfying infantile claims to entitlement, indulgence and compensation;
3.augmenting primitive feelings of envy;
4.rejecting the sovereignty of the individual, subordinating him to the will of the government.

“The roots of liberalism – and its associated madness – can be clearly identified by understanding how children develop from infancy to adulthood and how distorted development produces the irrational beliefs of the liberal mind,” he says. “When the modern liberal mind whines about imaginary victims, rages against imaginary villains and seeks above all else to run the lives of persons competent to run their own lives, the neurosis of the liberal mind becomes painfully obvious.”

ELISI — December 11, 2012 at 7:42 a.m. ( | suggest removal

manthou- A bad trend indeed. It's another example of corporate influence. Write what we expect you to in order to increase our bottom line, or go elsewhere.

It's hard to see when this will stop or at least slow down.

Interviewing for employment at some of these news outlets must be quite interesting.

The irony. Sounds like material for a new book! :)

nailingit — December 11, 2012 at 7:49 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Interesting how riled up conspiracists try to drown the voices of reason with paranoia.

One more reason to understand the world around us. These shysters on the right will say anything to their gullible audience in order to spread their message and make a buck.
A one person tag team! What we have hear is a failure to communicate. Watch "them" no eyes! :)))

**How Conspiracy Theorists Are Steering Us Toward the Fiscal Cliff**

*The world isn't about to end. You wouldn't know that if you listened to conservative talk radio.*

Such views also undergird the Tea Party fervor that debt must be dealt with NOW! **The fiscal cliff is a sideshow,** and any delay in dealing with the debt will mean one step closer to the financial collapse that we have been holding back as effectively as that little Dutch boy with his finger in the dyke. Sooner, or later...

Conservative radio especially has been festooned with apocalyptic financial warnings, which often take the form of urging people to invest what assets they have in gold coins and gold bullion. **Glenn Beck, the most prominent advocate of this approach, has been a major voice for Goldline,** a company that specialized in selling gold coins as a primary investment strategy. Goldline has faced legal scrutiny in California for duping investors and charging egregious fees and commissions, but its success is testament to how easy it is to connect various dots of fear and discontent to end up with an investing philosophy that dictates placing all your liquid assets in Gold American Eagle coins.

This movement is hardly a product of our times alone. Goldline and other "gold bug" companies offering to melt your jewelry down in exchange for bullion are part of a longer legacy. It's one that began at least with a Franklin Roosevelt executive order in 1933 recalling gold coins, in effect making it illegal for an individual to own certain types of bullion and coin. That lasted until the end of the gold standard in 1974.

Even before that, fears of the central government overreaching and "confiscating" the hard-earned wealth of the people extend back into the 19th century with populist rage and fear, and even further back to the fierce opposition to the Bank of the United States as a tyrannical power grab by the federal government.

Today, those older currents are strengthened by a newer note: that the entire financial system, supported by "fiat" currency detached from gold and backed only by government printing presses churning out dollars, is on the verge of collapse. Hence, CriticalWarning6 and a constant, hushed worry in the financial world that the next black swan is the implosion of the U.S. currency system.

Read more @

nailingit — December 11, 2012 at 8:10 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Wow it's just amazing how you know so much about Glen Beck, and others like, since you say you don't listen too....yet, one must come to the conclusion you must spend hours listening and reading about all of the conspiracy theorist since you have such an array of info on and about them all.

Best conspiracy theorist comic relief? Watch Jessie Ventura show or read Alex Jones..

ELISI — December 11, 2012 at 8:45 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Americans believe public workers better paid and more secure (Bingo!)

In the 1,420 days since he took the oath of office, the federal government has daily hired on average 101 new employees. Every day. Seven days a week. All 202 weeks. That makes 143,000 more federal workers than when Obama talked forever on that cold day in January of 2009.

Under Obama the total federal workforce has surpassed two million for the first time since the first Clinton term, now sitting about the 2.2 ,million level.

Now comes a new poll revealing that Americans know what's going on. A majority of Americans believes government workers make more money than private sector workers, according to the new Rasmussen Reports poll. Sixty-one percent of private sector workers believe that.

Surprisingly, Republicans, independents and Democrats are united in agreement that government employees have it better than private sector workers although, predictably, Dems are slightly less sure.

"The federal workforce has become an elite island of secure and high-paid workers, separated from the ocean of average American workers competing in the global economy," according to a report this year by the Cato Institute.

That report found the average civilian federal government worker collected just under $84,000 a year in taxpayer money, about $32,000 more than the average private sector worker. That's a total federal worker package of about $236 billion a year.

ELISI — December 11, 2012 at 8:54 a.m. ( | suggest removal

**Charlie Crist: Strident Republican Party 'Counter To My Values' (VIDEO)**

Brand-new Democrat Charlie Crist expounded on his decision to switch parties in a set of interviews Monday, saying he no longer fits in the "less tolerant" Republican party of 2012.

**"Issue after issue, they seem to get more strident, and more difficult if you will, less tolerant, less welcoming," the former Florida governor said on CNN's "Piers Morgan Tonight."**

"Whether it was immigration or education or voter suppression that we saw recently, each and every one of these issues was counter to my values that my mother and father raised me on, and the kind of ethic that I believe in," he said. "That we should be a tolerant people, a welcoming people, and try have a big tent as a party rather than trying to shrink things."

Crist added that his parents were still Republicans, and placed the blame for the direction of the party on GOP leadership.

Read more @

nailingit — December 11, 2012 at 9:30 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Here's a prominent, well-respected psychiatrist researcher (still living, bless his heart) we ALL can trust:

Aaron Beck.

I love his concept of "cognitive distortions." We all embrace these in one way or the other throughout the day (to the great detriment of personal growth, IMHO).

I love the following link because it displays these distortions in a flash card fashion, easy for all to understand:

[link text][1]


manthou — December 11, 2012 at 9:42 a.m. ( | suggest removal

I think we should put a firm line item in all city, county, state, and federal budgets:

Funds for mandatory cognitive behavior therapy for all elected officials to deal with those pesky thinking errors I mention at 9:42 am.

This dysfunction is preventing politicians from doing the people's business.

Just saying.

manthou — December 11, 2012 at 9:58 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Manthou...interesting link, but I do have one comment (I saw it coming, lol). I want to note that some of the examples provided could also be visualized from the other side of the spectrum as well. All the more reason why balancing the positive with the negative seems to be the better course to take in life.

goldenoldie — December 11, 2012 at 10:06 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Also Manthou, your comment at 9:58 am...

I think it'll take more than mandatory cognitive behavior therapy to correct the problem. Maybe a more drastic approach like...maybe shock therapy to get them out of their partisan ruts they appear to be digging deeper by the day...8))

goldenoldie — December 11, 2012 at 10:09 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Hey Columbian!!! How's that Facebook App workin' for ya these days??? I hear yesterday afternoon the entire FB site crashed! Could this be a prelude to a much bigger issue...especially since the worldwide DNS Infrastructure is already overloaded??? Can you imagine the panic some people would be enduring if they paid everything paper trace...and the DNS Infrastructure failed???


goldenoldie — December 11, 2012 at 10:20 a.m. ( | suggest removal

goldenoldie @ 10:06 am: If you re-read my post at 9:42 am, you can see that I used the collective "we."

I was including myself, and everyone in the world, actually, as having cognitive distortions. I did not post this to single out one person, one side, one group.

I'm gonna regret this (sorry fellow basement friends), but here goes:

Is this an example of your own penchant for distortion? A knee-jerk jumping to generalization and premature conclusions based on your thinking error that manthou is a liberal whack job and will only post biased information?

Sometimes I think you are addicted to fighting. You often throw wild punches here, I think, to be provocative and stir up drama. Need the attention?

But that is another psychology discussion for the future on how our brains get addicted to negativity.

Just wondering.

Let the typical scolding commence. . .

manthou — December 11, 2012 at 10:45 a.m. ( | suggest removal

manthou — December 11, 2012 at 10:45 a.m


hawkeye — December 11, 2012 at 11:09 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Here's a great piece on how the R's will be courting the dreaded Mainstream Media (MSM) in the future. They are distancing themselves from FOX for survival.

Makes sense.

When you limit your message to only those who agree with you, you miss an opportunity to change minds. All you do, as the article points out, is just get your base angrier.

A lesson for everyone, I guess. When we surround ourselves with only those who agree with us, our world view is very narrow and we miss opportunities to expand our perspectives and knowledge.

[link text][1]


manthou — December 11, 2012 at 11:46 a.m. ( | suggest removal

manthou — December 11, 2012 at 11:46 a.m

A new buzzword for items that have been refreshed or rebuilt is "reimagined". The GOP is in desperate need of being reimagined. They are to the point where they are no longer viable. They have been infused with the Tea Party which was a complete failure and they have lost their way. It's time for them to move more to the center and drop the hard right line. It's the only way they will be able to recruit more members.

hawkeye — December 11, 2012 at 12:20 p.m. ( | suggest removal

*A lesson for everyone, I guess. When we surround ourselves with only those who agree with us, our world view is very narrow and we miss opportunities to expand our perspectives and knowledge.*

Manthou- your statement is a good one..There are learning opportunities everywhere, most of them we don't even recognize as ones...I like the ol saying if you do what you've always done you'll get what you've always got.. Change can be slow or non existent for many people..Even when one knows they would be better off.

vanwadreamer — December 11, 2012 at 12:38 p.m. ( | suggest removal

manthou @ 11:46- Great read. It would be interesting to know how the numbers correlate with regards to RW politico availability and rising GOP extremism since 2008. They have become extremely insular except for Fox and fringe media since then.

From what I have seen, GOP leadership has a hard time defending their policies and direction. I think it plays a huge part in not frequenting main stream media. i.e. anti-choice, anti-contraception, anti-investment, anti-union, anti-early voting, anti immigration, anti-gay...hell, a lot of anti's and I'm not 1/32 done. :) The fact such low numbers don't trust media outside of their bubble is troubling.

I hear GOP leadership strategizing for next election and it's all about messaging instead of policy.

Just today in Michigan, during a lame duck, sticking it to the people...

I wish some/more of these guys would go on Rachel's show for example, and speak to what they believe are valid points, especially in this political environment. As the article points out the left side of the aisle does a much better job at this.

Intelligent and responsible debates should be on going, never ceasing. The more exposure to differing views with wide/diverse platforms to speak from all the better.

Honest info. Honest media...sounds like a great Christmas gift.

Honest politicians would be wishing for too much.

How about well intended?


nailingit — December 11, 2012 at 12:45 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Virtually nothing surprises me in politics.

Lou Brancaccio (Columbian Staff) — December 11, 2012 at 12:48 p.m. ( | suggest removal

hawkeye — December 11, 2012 at 12:20 p.m.

The republicans are already about as "centrist" as you can get, how can they move more to the center?

frobert — December 11, 2012 at 12:49 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Lou B.

Amen. :)


I'm reminded of what GOP operatives say was the worst mistake made this election season and promise to change next time around.

Too many debates. Of which I totally disagree. There's not TMI when it comes to politics and those who want to lead us.

I enjoyed them for a few reason's, one being it gave us insight into what policy changes/proposes the right sought to make. What ideology and to what degree it drove each candidate.

I can imagine with less exposure, Rick Perry might have been taken seriously. A mistake for everyone.

Dubya should have debated more.

We should have more debates on both sides of the aisle.

We'll be in good shape if the Jon Huntsman's of the world are considered viable to take "center" stage from those on the right.

Only then can this Republican party ever hope to lead again.

nailingit — December 11, 2012 at 1:07 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Ya gotta love Sessions! One of my all time favorites. He never disappoints.

**Soledad O'Brien Grills Jeff Sessions Over Cutting Food Stamps (VIDEO)**

nailingit — December 11, 2012 at 1:24 p.m. ( | suggest removal

vanwadreamer: I LOVE the saying you posted: "if you do what you've always done you'll get what you've always got." I am gonna write that down and add it to my daily reminders. :)

hawkeye: I never heard "reimagined" before. My spell check keeps on trying to turn it into something else as I typed it. I guess that is kinda like "reinvention" .

nailingit: I am always impressed with the Republican that had the courage to face Rachel Maddow or Chris Mathews (he has moved to the left, I noticed). I never understood any politician who thought they could fool people by dodging the media. The fact that voters would support someone who was not very transparent or was not able to articulate their views confidently and civilly when challenged is a big puzzle.

Lou B: I am very happy to see you pop up here and appreciate it. I agree with you that we can expect almost anything in the world of politics. I just wish its culture would reward honesty more.

manthou — December 11, 2012 at 1:36 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Hopefully Scalia will be replaced in the next four years. If not, Hillary will appoint someone when she's in office to take his seat.

What about Obama? I think kn_d mentioned this awhile back...sounds a bit daft, but he'd be better than Taft.

President Obama would make a great Justice, talk about a resume!

**Antonin Scalia Defends Legal Writings Some View As Offensive, Anti-Gay**

While speaking at Princeton University on Dec. 10, U.S. Supreme Court Justice Antonin Scalia defended his legal writings that some find offensive and anti-gay. (File/AP)
PRINCETON, N.J. -- U.S. Supreme Court Justice Antonin Scalia on Monday found himself defending his legal writings that some find offensive and anti-gay.

Speaking at Princeton University, Scalia was asked by a gay student why he equates laws banning sodomy with those barring bestiality and murder.

"I don't think it's necessary, but I think it's effective," Scalia said, adding that legislative bodies can ban what they believe to be immoral.

Read more @

nailingit — December 11, 2012 at 3:05 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Sad scary news. I hope everyone's loved are safe. Very early reporting. NBC reporting at least 60 shots fired from assault weapon.

**Clackamas Town Center Shooting: Gunfire Erupts At Portland Mall**

PORTLAND, Ore. -- Sheriff's deputies say there has been a shooting in a shopping mall near Portland, Ore.

One witness at the Clackamas Town Center told television station KATU at least two people were shot, and he saw sheets put over them.

Another witness told the station she saw people screaming and parents grabbing their children as they fled the mall.

That witness said the gunman had a rifle and was wearing a camouflage outfit and a mask.

Another witness said ambulances were arriving at the scene.

Entrances to the mall have been blocked off.

No further details were immediately available from the Clackamas County sheriff's office.

nailingit — December 11, 2012 at 4:46 p.m. ( | suggest removal

nailingit — December 11, 2012 at 3:05 p.m.

So Scalia makes a liberal statement (that legislatures can ban anything they want to) and you think replacing him with someone more liberal will help? We need a court of true conservatives, ponderous jurists who will look to the Constitution for justification in every law.

frobert — December 11, 2012 at 5:44 p.m. ( | suggest removal

*So Scalia makes a liberal statement (that legislatures can ban anything they want to) and you think replacing him with someone more liberal will help?*

On the surface, in limited context, with any depth or previous discussion aside, yes.

You might consider using different language, something other than being pointed/slanted to get across a pre-conceived talking point.

nailingit — December 11, 2012 at 6:20 p.m. ( | suggest removal

nailingit — December 11, 2012 at 6:20 p.m.

"You might consider using different language, something other than being pointed/slanted to get across a pre-conceived talking point."

My language was in no way inflammatory, and even if it was, ***you***, of all posters on this forum would be in no position to make such an accusation.

frobert — December 11, 2012 at 7:28 p.m. ( | suggest removal

manthou — December 11, 2012 at 10:45 a.m.

You said and I quote "I'm gonna regret this (sorry fellow basement friends), but here goes:"

Why would you regret it unless you realized after the fact, it might bite you in your virtual britches...

Actually assumed something which was nonexistent. I was entertained by the link and just added a spin to it. How easily the negative distortions mentioned by Beck could be turned around as positive distortions was my point...that a happy, happy, feel good cognitive effect could become distorted as well. I'd be more than happy to give you a few examples to contemplate, should you care to continue this discussion. You can take what I had to say in any way which suits your argument as that's your choice. It seems to be the trend here in the forum these days. Heck, you even had a lost pup following you as well...fell right into that CD game, too.

Thanks for providing such a clear example of Cognitive Distortions in your post at 10:45 am...especially Mind Reading Cognitive Distortion, Disqualifying the Positive and Jumping to Conclusions. Definitely an enlightening experience.

Amazing how the human mind works. Truly amazing!!!

A reminder to you and the rest of the crew in the Open Forum, courtesy of the following link:

goldenoldie — December 11, 2012 at 7:29 p.m. ( | suggest removal

You can lead a horse to water but.....

nailingit — December 11, 2012 at 7:39 p.m. ( | suggest removal

nailingit — December 11, 2012 at 4:46 p.m.

Absolutely a frightening day for all during the Christmas shopping season. Apparently the shooter died of a self-inflicted shot as well.

BTW, not only is it on HuffPo, it is also on BBC, CNN and beyond.

A Sign of the Times


goldenoldie — December 11, 2012 at 7:41 p.m. ( | suggest removal

nailingit — December 11, 2012 at 7:39 p.m.

popular saying lately

goldenoldie — December 11, 2012 at 7:42 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Governor Gregoire, you're truly going to leave a lasting memory on the people of Washington State with your transportation bill proposition...just weeks before you step away from your position.

goldenoldie — December 11, 2012 at 7:45 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Always with the finger waving, I've come to dismiss your posts as most are challenged by basic comprehension/understanding/context, over and over and over. i.e. Dec, 08 @ 8:08. A nonsensical link which was not only outdated 7 years (considering the topic was the current state of media affairs) but the study itself was not relevant in the least to conversation at hand.

You constantly criticize matters you don't understand, then make zero attempt to do any research so that you might understand. Your buddy Basil is much more long suffering than I.

Maybe it's time to watch your Star Trek collection again. Fix yourself a dog with squiggly condiments, make some hot chocolate and yes, free your mind.

At least a couple of episodes of Mork and Mindy.

nanu nanu

nailingit — December 9, 2012 at 8:39 p.m.


nailingit — December 11, 2012 at 6:20 p.m.

"You might consider using different language, something other than being pointed/slanted to get across a pre-conceived talking point."

*My language was in no way inflammatory, and even if it was, you, of all posters on this forum would be in no position to make such an accusation.*

frobert — December 11, 2012 at 7:28 p.m.


I said nothing about your language being "inflammatory". I referred to a bias predicated on RW talking points.

Like I said, always with the finger waving. "I've come to dismiss your posts as most are challenged by basic comprehension/understanding/context, over and over and over. i.e.... we speak.

I understand basement conservatives are in a cranky pant stage, just try to get with it at some point, at some adult level anyway...

Be mindful of others and *think* before you post.

nailingit — December 11, 2012 at 8:38 p.m. ( | suggest removal

nailingit — December 11, 2012 at 8:38 p.m.

You might want to study up on your Latin, the abbreviation i.e. is for "that is", I think you are confusing it with e.g. or example given. So who has a lack of basic comprehension?

frobert — December 11, 2012 at 8:48 p.m. ( | suggest removal

LOL! Perfect example!

nailingit — December 11, 2012 at 8:52 p.m. ( | suggest removal

So who has a lack of basic comprehension?

frobert — December 11, 2012 at 8:48 p.m.

frobert......I said *your posts* are challenged, not you. To say someone's writes are challenged is not the same as........never mind.

.....l:- l.....

nailingit — December 11, 2012 at 9:01 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Try some onion, relish and jalapeno's on your squiggle dog with a side of nanu sauce.

It's out of this world.

nailingit — December 11, 2012 at 9:08 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Why the Fiscal Cliff Is Causing a Nervous Breakdown on the Right

by Howard Kurtz Dec 11, 2012 4:45 AM EST

From Joe Scarborough to Bill Kristol to Rush Limbaugh, the post-election recriminations are getting heated on the slow march to the fiscal cliff. Howard Kurtz on why the GOP is at war with itself.

It’s no surprise, after losing a second time to Barack Obama, that the right is engaged in a furious debate over the future of the Republican Party.

Daily Caller columnist Matt Lewis tells Howard Kurtz that the GOP ‘is sort of like a drunk that needs to hit rock bottom.’

But it’s quickly degenerating into a mudfight.

Read more @

nailingit — December 11, 2012 at 9:34 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Names being bandied about are *Beast* and *Son of perdition*. :))

Congrats Jenna!

Jenna Bush Hager Pregnant: 'Today' Correspondent Reportedly Expecting First Child

nailingit — December 11, 2012 at 9:47 p.m. ( | suggest removal

happy 12/12/12. i wish.

another wacko shoots up a mall. i'm genetically 2nd amendment, own guns and have a ccp. but this guy is the perfect example of why people who want to disarm the public have a point.

i say this because i believe in the constitution. where peope are free, there are going to be a massivee number of citizens who enjoy their liberty without notice.

then ya got the crazies, those who think up columbines and regal cinema shootings.

everybody's angry, everybody wants controls to prevent it again and off to the races we go.

look, it's a harsh reality, but true nevertheless: most humans are law abiding, but there is a percentage who are evil, and **will** do evil things law, or constituton be damned. and taking away the rights of everyone to stop the evil ones just doesn't work.

it's a price we pay for having freedom.

DeeLittle — December 12, 2012 at 1:42 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Mr. Jim Moeller, it is NOT written in stone that the CRC project HAS to have a loo-rail system. You know there are other options. Please quit lying to the people.

The real reason all the proponents of loo-rail want it is they believe it will enhance our fair city. I disagree with that. It will make most people wonder if we have the right politicians in office.

You say we should tie into Portland for economic reasons. Most of us who moved here from there wonder if you have some issues with normal thinking. Portland refused to address their Rose Quarter snafu. Look how long it took for them to fix the problem at the north end of I-5 by the slough. YEARS !!!

It is readily apparent that you think that by adding fee hikes and more taxes is the solution. Along with tolls, you seem to believe it will be paid for. Well here's what I and a whole bunch of others think. The CRC has been trying to blindsiding us and that is a fact. There are other options for the new bridge and we do know it.

So, in closing, you say the new bridge will not be built without loo-rail. That sounds like a threat. Do you know what happens when you TELL people that there is only one way??? We are not all sheep and we will change things with our vote.

JohnCasey — December 12, 2012 at 3:08 a.m. ( | suggest removal

JohnCasey — December 12, 2012 at 3:08 a.m.,

The Oregonian's website addressed an interesting poll yesterday - it was taken in the Hillsboro area. A majority were for the I605 bypass to the west of Portland, running from the I5 around Tualatin up through their area to OR30. While only a small majority, many of the opposed were because of the recent population/residential growth there; if the project had happened 10 years ago they would have backed it.

Rep Jim Moeller keeps talking about planning for the benefit of our children. He refuses to accept that downtown Portland is strangling on their own transportation policies; the real economic growth "down there" is westward in Washington County. We need to tie into that growth, and the best way would be to resurrect the "west bridge" discussion and work with Hillsboro and Beaverton to make that a reality.

roger — December 12, 2012 at 6:08 a.m. ( | suggest removal

A quote from the Columbian article "C-tran board OKs healthier spending plan" -

*The C-Tran Board of Directors on Tuesday approved a two-year budget that includes a big boost in revenue and puts the transit agency in the black for the first time in years.*

Never fear, C-Tran...MAX will take care of that extra revenue boost for ya!

goldenoldie — December 12, 2012 at 6:32 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Roger and JohnCasey...

The public has been misled from the get go. All this time, these clowns in office have been leading the public to believe all was secure and ready to begin construction in a year or two (for how long, now???) when in all actuality, the final disposition of the project design lays hanging in the balance, thanks to the honesty of the USCG declaring the necessary height needed for ALL river traffic. Of course, the CRC folks and their cronies are sure that bending the rules is possible. Who cares if one of the structures built by Thompson hits the framework of a new bridge??? They'll have their light, light rail that is...and that's ALL that matters to these jokers. Besides, there would be insurance to pay for any damages...right???

Sheesh, this is getting old!

And to add insult to injury, it appears Governor-Elect Inslee is supporting Governor Gregoire's Transportation Bill proposal. Seems to me that money is growing on some tree somewhere in our state because they continue to increase taxes anywhere they can. Too bad that money tree is out of the reach of the people who will have to pay for it!

Some things never change!

BTW...since Mister Eric Florip is too busy to respond to my email and Mister Lou couldn't find it in himself to see why his reporter hadn't contacted me regarding the Four-Year Program of Transportation Projects ready for review by the public...which IMO SHOULD be newsworthy enough for the C to get the word out, I've provided the link yet again for this week's forum for anybody who is still reading in this little "ghost town" of a forum.

goldenoldie — December 12, 2012 at 6:44 a.m. ( | suggest removal

I might add "...thanks to the honesty AND integrity of the USCG..."

goldenoldie — December 12, 2012 at 6:45 a.m. ( | suggest removal


nailingit — December 12, 2012 at 7:17 a.m. ( | suggest removal

**Democrats Ready
to March off the Cliff
GOP willing to negotiate but Democrats refuse**

A potential deal to avert the so-called fiscal cliff could be undermined by the Democratic Party’s refusal to come to terms with the unsustainability of federal entitlement programs and acknowledge that the government is spending too much.

Conventional wisdom in Washington suggests that Republicans, humbled after their defeat in November, are willing to compromise on taxes and may even vote so that tax rates on the wealthy increase automatically on January 1.

Republican aides argue that a compromise could be easily agreed if the White House stopped stonewalling on specific spending cuts and entitlement reforms.

ELISI — December 12, 2012 at 7:19 a.m. ( | suggest removal

ELISI — December 12, 2012 at 7:19 a.m.


goldenoldie — December 12, 2012 at 7:23 a.m. ( | suggest removal

It's "what the h***" time....

*New Army Manual Orders Soldiers Not To Criticize Taliban*

Here is a strong indicator that the Obama Administration’s crusade to appease Islam has gone too far; a new U.S. military handbook for troops deployed to the Middle East orders soldiers not to make derogatory comments about the Taliban or criticize pedophilia, among other outrageous things.

It gets better; the new manual, which is around 75 pages, suggests that Western ignorance of Afghan culture— not Taliban infiltration—is responsible for the increase in deadly attacks by Afghan soldiers against the coalition forces.

The soon-to-be-released Army handbook is still being drafted, but a mainstream newspaper got a sneak preview and published an article that should infuriate the American taxpayers funding the never-ending war on terror. The manual is being created because someone with authority bought the theory that cultural insensitivity is driving insider attacks on U.S. troops in Afghanistan.;_medium=twitter

ELISI — December 12, 2012 at 7:26 a.m. ( | suggest removal

goldenoldie — December 12, 2012 at 7:23 a.m

I'd say....yep yep!

ELISI — December 12, 2012 at 7:28 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Oh my my my..

*Democrats urge delay for ‘job-killing’ Obamacare tax*

Sixteen Democratic senators who voted for the Affordable Care Act are asking that one of its fundraising mechanisms, a 2.3 percent tax on medical devices scheduled to take effect January 1, be delayed. Echoing arguments made by Republicans against Obamacare, the Democratic senators say the levy will cost jobs — in a statement Monday, Sen. Al Franken called it a “job-killing tax” — and also impair American competitiveness in the medical device field.

The senators, who made the request in a letter to Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid, are Franken, Richard Durbin, Charles Schumer, Patty Murray, John Kerry, Kirsten Gillibrand, Amy Klobuchar, Joseph Lieberman, Ben Nelson, Robert Casey, Debbie Stabenow, Barbara Mikulski, Kay Hagan, Herb Kohl, Jeanne Shaheen, and Richard Blumenthal. All voted for Obamacare.

Two other Democrats, senators-elect Joe Donnelly and Elizabeth Warren, also signed the letter. Donnelly voted for Obamacare as a member of the House. Warren was not in Congress at the time.

ELISI — December 12, 2012 at 7:31 a.m. ( | suggest removal

ELISI...all that goes through my mind with regards to your post at 7:31 am is what these politicians minds are saying right about now, AFTER the fact...

Maybe this -

"On Second Thought....."

goldenoldie — December 12, 2012 at 10:41 a.m. ( | suggest removal

LOL it reminds me of when Bush wanted to go into Iraq...and all these guys voted to go, then a few years later it was...."Oh I was for it before I was against it" LOLOLOLOL

ELISI — December 12, 2012 at 12:43 p.m. ( | suggest removal


nailingit — December 12, 2012 at 7:17 a.m.

I agree!! Loved your twin pic!! Today's gem for you and manthou: Never argue with an idiot. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.

soapbox4u — December 12, 2012 at 3:09 p.m. ( | suggest removal

***Well it's about time!!!***

A broad swath of the nation’s leading chief executives dropped its opposition to tax increases on the wealthiest Americans on Tuesday, while the White House quietly pressed Wall Street titans for their support as well.

Before Tuesday’s about-face, the Business Roundtable had insisted that the White House extend Bush-era tax cuts to taxpayers of all income brackets, but the executives’ resistance crumbled as pressure builds to find a compromise for the fiscal impasse in Washington before the end of the year.

“We recognize that part of the solution has to be tax increases,” David M. Cote, chief executive of Honeywell, said on a conference call with reporters. “That’s the only thing that allows a reasonable compromise to be reached.”

hawkeye — December 12, 2012 at 3:22 p.m. ( | suggest removal

soapbox4u- I'm reminded of a joke...

A psychiatrist asks his multiple personality patient, "So, do you feel like you're cured?"

She replied, "Absolutely. We've never felt better."

nailingit — December 12, 2012 at 3:22 p.m. ( | suggest removal

soapbox4u: I told everyone I would regret it. :)

nailingit: :D

manthou — December 12, 2012 at 3:34 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Tampa Bay Times spinoff, PolitiFact (winner of a Pulitzer), has awarded their "Lie of the Year" to the infamous Mitt Romney ad:

[link text][1]


manthou — December 12, 2012 at 3:46 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Good afternoon everyone did ya miss me?????

Hey cat, I see you haven't changed, same, same as they say.

Whats new alleycat woah, woah

Whats new alleycat woah, woah

Alleycat, alleycat

I've got flowers
and lots of hours to spend with you
So go and powder your cute little alleycat nose.

soul_pancake — December 12, 2012 at 3:49 p.m. ( | suggest removal

I just love that song, don't you? Just put's a mile on your face doesn't it?

soul_pancake — December 12, 2012 at 3:52 p.m. ( | suggest removal

manthou @ 3:46- At least Mitt won *something*. :)

nailingit — December 12, 2012 at 4:09 p.m. ( | suggest removal

nailingit: I had not spent much time on PolitiFact but it doles out the hand slaps to all sides.

Check out the Pundits tab sometime.

Advice: Don't bite. ;>D

manthou — December 12, 2012 at 4:27 p.m. ( | suggest removal

While reading the news on the local City of Vancouver website, I came across one article which said the city was awarded a $750,000 grant for the Waterfront Renaissance Trail Extension located on the edge of the old Boise-Cascade property, soon to be a mixed-use city space. I'm does the fire rubble from the devastation of the old Thunderbird Hotel affect the timing of the construction of the waterfront community??? First, it's the thought of the view-blocking, double-decker replacement bridge fully equipped with ugly overhead power lines for MAX, then the remains of what was once a classic waterfront hotel.

IMO...not looking very promising for a peaceful waterfront stroll.

goldenoldie — December 12, 2012 at 4:31 p.m. ( | suggest removal

manthou- *Advice: Don't bite. ;>D*

No way Jose. No appetite for it. But somehow it has already left a bad taste. **;))**

nailingit — December 12, 2012 at 4:35 p.m. ( | suggest removal

If anyone is interested there is a concert on BIO that just started and runs until 9pm tonight. Its relief for hurricane Sandy. Springsteen, The Stones, Billy Joel, The Who, Paul Mc Cartney, Jon Bon Jovi, Alica Keys, Eddie Vedder, Dave Grohl and others.

ELISI — December 12, 2012 at 4:40 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Another thought about the Boise Cascade site...

With the global climate change which is obviously an issue in my opinion, I'm wondering why the powers that be are so insistent about building an entire development smack dab on a flood plain which stretches along the waterfront, down through Vancouver Lake and Ridgefield Wildlife Refuge. They're forever cramming down our throats the need to cut back on energy, the need for each of us to reduce our carbon footprint, the need to turn to hybrid vehicles and riding...light rail of all things...yet they haven't a clue as to the pollution issues surrounding building on that site as well as property expansion in the port region.

To add insult to they're working to "improve" the old Leichner with only something like 37 inches of dirt separating the people from toxic trash???

And we're supposed to support these costly ventures and cave in to their mindset that *they know what is best for our county???*

big BIG sigh.........

Greedy little buzzards they all are!!!


goldenoldie — December 12, 2012 at 4:47 p.m. ( | suggest removal

And yes, the tides do affect the local area as well. Makes you wonder if 115-116' height for the lower deck of the CRC bridge design will be enough for the river traffic. Methinks the USCG needs to stick to the rules and keep it at 125', especially with global climate issues being what they are these days.

goldenoldie — December 12, 2012 at 4:51 p.m. ( | suggest removal

ELISI — December 12, 2012 at 4:40 p.m.


Ever try to say "Jon Bon Jovi" fast three times??? Now try to say it while holding the tip of your tongue at the same time, lol.

goldenoldie — December 12, 2012 at 4:54 p.m. ( | suggest removal

springsteen can't sing

hawkeye — December 12, 2012 at 5:06 p.m. ( | suggest removal

LOL Hawkeye, I agree...

I'm waiting for Eric Clapton, The Stones, and Mc Cartney

ELISI — December 12, 2012 at 5:10 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Neither can Mick Jagger. But they're both great performers.

roger — December 12, 2012 at 5:11 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Another conservative lame duck disaster...I feel sorry for Michiganders. This, coupled with current back door Union busting things could get more than ugly...damn republicans.

No class.

**Michigan Abortion 'Super-Bill' Passes State Senate**

Michigan state Rep. Barb Byrum (D-Onondaga) reads her part during a performance of "The Vagina Monologues" with 10 other lawmakers and several actresses on the Michigan Statehouse steps, June 18, 2012, in Lansing, Mich. (AP Photo/Detroit News, Dale G. Young)
The Michigan Senate passed its version of a controversial abortion bill on Wednesday that would regulate abortion clinics as surgical centers, require doctors to screen women for coercion before providing them abortions and restrict the use of telemedicine to prescribe abortion medication. The "super-bill," passed by a Senate vote of 27 to 10 after the state House of Representatives passed its version last week, is likely to drastically limit women's access to abortion in Michigan.

House Bill 5711 has been the subject of heated protests since it was first introduced in June. Republican supporters of the bill argue that it protects women's health, while Democrats and reproductive-rights advocates charge that it simply aims to restrict women's reproductive freedom.

The bill imposes strict building regulations on abortion clinics, such as specific square-footage minimums and hallway widths, which could prevent many clinics from being able to legally operate without costly and extensive renovations. It also bans the use of telemedicine to prescribe medication abortions, though it is often the only alternative for many women in rural and medically under-served areas of the state.

A third provision of the bill requires doctors to ask women probing questions to ensure they haven't been forced to choose abortion.

The House will now review the final version of the bill before sending it to Gov. Rick Snyder (R), who is expected to sign.

"Michigan's public officials were elected to stand up for women's health and rights, not to trample them," said Nancy Northup, president of the Center for Reproductive Rights. "We strongly urge Governor Snyder to reject this attack on women's constitutionally-protected rights."

nailingit — December 12, 2012 at 5:33 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Roger Waters...still going strong!

ELISI — December 12, 2012 at 5:43 p.m. ( | suggest removal

**Jesus In Shower Mold: The Strangest 'Sacred Sightings' Of 2012**

God is everywhere, believers say, but some of the places where he shows up can make even the most devout person say, "Oh Lord."

For instance, earlier this year, Jesus' image reportedly appeared on a moldy shower curtain in Houston, Texas, and a stingray near James Island, S.C.

Meanwhile, the Virgin Mary appeared on a log in Utah and the wall of a Hamburger Mary's restaurant in Ybor City, Fla.

Some strange images were more open to interpretation, such as the crab found near Snohomish County, Wash., that looks, depending on your opinion, Jesus Christ or Osama Bin Laden.

nailingit — December 12, 2012 at 11:41 p.m. ( | suggest removal

***A E R O S M I T H ***

now *that's* rock n roll

DeeLittle — December 13, 2012 at 12:18 a.m. ( | suggest removal

The gopper's are going from terrible to bad. Really hope they figure out the reason behind their nationwide demise. Have folks come to the conclusion the R's are the party of the rich? That trickle-down economics and the notion of "job creator" status-both essentially the same thing-are failed concepts?

"The GOP’s favorable/unfavorable rating in the poll now stands at 30 percent/45 percent (minus-15 points), which is down from 36 percent/43 percent (minus-7) right before the election.

That’s compared with the Democratic Party’s 44 percent/35 percent rating (plus-9 points).

What’s more, asked to give a word or short phrase to describe the Republican Party, 65 percent offered a negative comment, including more than half of Republicans."

mrd — December 13, 2012 at 12:39 a.m. ( | suggest removal

mrd — December 13, 2012 at 12:39 a.m.

Obama barley defeating a weak candidate like Romney does not signal the end of the republican party. The republicans won a strong majority of the House, and a strong majority of State chambers. A strong majority of Governess are also republican. Democrats have even lost their stranglehold on the Washington State legislature. Objectivity, we are no closer to seeing the end of the republican party than we are the democrats.

frobert — December 13, 2012 at 2:34 a.m. ( | suggest removal

barely not barley.

frobert — December 13, 2012 at 3:06 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Funny comment -

"""Have folks come to the conclusion the R's are the party of the rich?"""

mrd — December 13, 2012 at 12:39 a.m.

Have you ever thought why the GOP appear to be more wealthy than the average Joe? They weren't all silver spooners to begin with, you know. Studying the trends, avoiding needless spending, keeping ahead of the game and planning for their future in a conservative fashion along with hard work has a lot to do with it.

You might begin with looking at the way the Dem's have on a continual basis, day by day, week by week and year by year found creative taxation and fees to tack onto the people while in the meantime, the GOP has tried to reduce the government's intrusion in the lives of the people so that more could live the American Dream.

BTW, here's a small compilation of some of the wealthiest politicians...:

Nancy Pelosi
Diane Feinstein
John Kerry
Al Gore
Michael Bloomberg
John Corzinie
Jay Rockefeller

...and they aren't members of the GOP!!!

goldenoldie — December 13, 2012 at 6:03 a.m. ( | suggest removal

A desperate move to avoid an even worsening economic crisis?

Is this the beginning of the next round?

Are things getting better as we're being told???

goldenoldie — December 13, 2012 at 6:13 a.m. ( | suggest removal

*Have folks come to the conclusion the R's are the party of the rich? That trickle-down economics and the notion of "job creator" status-both essentially the same thing-are failed concepts?*

It's starting to look that way mrd. All Republicans can do is try to spin this election away. It ain't going to happen. To those blinded by partisanship or not bright enough to understand, this election was a wash. They'll never change.

**Fiscal Cliff Is Latest Symptom of Unfair Redistricting**

On the surface, it looks as though the American electorate deliberately split power between Democrats and Republicans and created gridlock. House Speaker John Boehner’s rejection of President Obama’s bid to raise income tax rates on the wealthy rests on the continuing Republican majority in the House and the claim that House Republicans won a mandate from American voters in November to keep all the current tax rates in place.

But that’s false. Republicans did not win an electoral mandate. In fact, they lost the popular vote for the House of Representatives. More Americans voted this year for Democratic House candidates than for Republicans and yet the GOP wound up with the House majority. That happened once before—in 1996.

By the Associated Press unofficial vote tally, Democratic candidates for the House won a million more votes than Republicans—56,056,564 to 55,028,230—and yet the Republicans got a House majority, 234 to 201.

Most of us know that what mostly stacks the deck is the gerrymandering of congressional districts. After the 2010 Census and the 2010 elections, Republicans controlled the most state legislatures and governors’ mansions and that gave them the power to draw district lines in their own favor.

Read more @

nailingit — December 13, 2012 at 7:24 a.m. ( | suggest removal

This deal at EHS brings back a memory. A few years ago (heh), when I was in high school, during hunting season, the parking lot would be plumb full of high power rifles. You could see them mounted on racks in the pick-up truck back windows.

Times change, eh?

Drift — December 13, 2012 at 7:34 a.m. ( | suggest removal

nailingit — December 13, 2012 at 7:24 a.m.

Your "Daily Beast" article is garbage and fails to take into account that major cities vote for democrats by wide margins. These votes don't and shouldn't counter rural votes.

frobert — December 13, 2012 at 7:39 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Drift — December 13, 2012 at 7:34 a.m.

I went to high school in Maine, everybody had a rifle or shotgun in the rear window and everybody wore a knife on their belt.

frobert — December 13, 2012 at 7:42 a.m. ( | suggest removal

With today's Republicans it's all about power & money. The people be damned. Michigan the latest example Of Koch Bros politics.

Subverting democracy to establish plutocracy.

And those who don't understand or need identity verification follow along in lock step.

History will not be kind to this current crop of right wingers, nor those who blindly follow at the behest of Fox news & co.

These times, they are a changing.

Now republican governors are talking about gerrymandering for Prez elections. Pitiful. They can't win by following the rules so they change them. And the lemmings just fall in line.

Maybe it's time for the popular vote to prevail. If so GOP wouldn't win a national election for...............who knows how long?

nailingit — December 13, 2012 at 7:44 a.m. ( | suggest removal

*Your "Daily Beast" article is garbage and fails to take into account that major cities vote for democrats by wide margins. These votes don't and shouldn't counter rural votes.*

Great example frobert. Facts become garbage for those who don't like the numbers. You make no sense and your argument lacks any kind of reason or merit.

Sometimes I think a litmus test should be required to vote, at least proving someone understands basic terminology and events before pulling that lever or checking that box.

nailingit — December 13, 2012 at 7:49 a.m. ( | suggest removal

"Have you ever thought why the GOP appear to be more wealthy than the average Joe?"

Nothing could be further removed from reality. Check out the poorest 10 states in the country and guess what, they're red states. But for some inexplicable reason, the poorest states lean toward the GOP. I find that ironic.

The politics of the GOP favor the rich. They don't want to get their tax rate back up to pre-Bush levels and they can't even discuss raising the SS cap. They claim they won't raise tax rates but will close loopholes and eliminate deductions, but I guess that's "increased revenue", not raising taxes. And I wonder where that burden is to fall.

The GOP can quit hiding behind this smaller government, less intrusion screen. Less intrusion GOP style is less regulation so the rich can get richer at the expense of us all and the environment. If they're less intrusive, why are they so concerned about what goes on in bedrooms? And contraception?

mrd — December 13, 2012 at 7:51 a.m. ( | suggest removal

nailingit — December 13, 2012 at 7:44 a.m.

A law that stops unions from forcing enrollment is not subverting democracy, it is supporting it. Nobody should be forced to join a union, that is just un American. What do the Koch brothers have to do with it? Their companies are union even in "right to work" states. Liberal run companies like Microsoft, Apple and Intel use slave labor in Asia, but Democrats have **always** supported slave labor.

frobert — December 13, 2012 at 7:52 a.m. ( | suggest removal

*What do the Koch brothers have to do with it?*

You're a huge Koch follower frobert. You must know that's where the $$$ money is coming from to buy Michigan politics. Either you're not paying attention or obfuscating.

Either way, your opinion on this is just ludicrous. In my opinion of course.:)

Your statement @ 7:39 displays this. Just silly stuff.

Of all the republicans who post, you defend GOP actions more than anyone.

And yes, you seem to be a partisan republican in every sense. No matter what your Cheerio's box top tells you. Your politics revolve around slanting constitutional principles to push a republican agenda.

Your word games with party affiliation are amusing, and not lost on us who appreciate disingenuous humor.

All 'Rhodes' lead back Dan to Quayle!

nailingit — December 13, 2012 at 8:12 a.m. ( | suggest removal

nailingit — December 13, 2012 at 8:12 a.m.

No, I do not support much of the republican agenda, but I also condemn most of the democrat agenda. You on the other hand support all of the democrat agenda even if, like currently, it involves murdering innocent children in Pakistan.

frobert — December 13, 2012 at 9:38 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Wow talk about blindly following ideologies....

or is it...

Can't see the forest for the trees...

ELISI — December 13, 2012 at 9:39 a.m. ( | suggest removal

frobert- Back to the baby killing...........even when discussing the popular vote.

Although your obfuscation has gone mainstream, I'm thankful your wing politics remain somewhat on the fringe.


"elisi" @ 9:39- You might consider addressing who you are referring to.

Your little swipes at those you disagree with are more than childish.

You never came out of your downward spiral before you started posting again goldie. Perhaps another breather would help.

nailingit — December 13, 2012 at 10:01 a.m. ( | suggest removal

nailingit — December 13, 2012 at 10:01 a.m.

"Your little swipes at those you disagree with are more than childish."

Wow, I can't believe you of all people would write that. All you do on here all day is take "swipes" at anybody who disagrees with you.

frobert — December 13, 2012 at 10:07 a.m. ( | suggest removal

nailingit — December 13, 2012 at 10:01 a.m.

"Back to the baby killing...........even when discussing the popular vote"

That was a response to your ad hominem argument, that had nothing to do with the popular vote discussion. In fact your post that I referenced did not use the phrase "popular vote" at all.

frobert — December 13, 2012 at 10:14 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Again with the lack of substance and unfounded accusations frobert. I understand your sycophancy attempts with the few who agree with a portion of your posts.

But they fall flat.

@ 10:14- Thank you for at least making an effort to explain yourself.

But it fell flat.

nailingit — December 13, 2012 at 10:19 a.m. ( | suggest removal

mr_basil_seal- If you can and it's not too frustrating, please come back and keep this guy occupied. Thanks for doing so last week.

nailingit — December 13, 2012 at 10:23 a.m. ( | suggest removal

*What’s more, asked to give a word or short phrase to describe the Republican Party, 65 percent offered a negative comment, including more than half of Republicans."*

mrd — December 13, 2012 at 12:39 a.m.

Apparently basement conservatives never received the memo.

nailingit — December 13, 2012 at 10:35 a.m. ( | suggest removal

*Tolerance is giving to every other human being every right that you claim for yourself.*

~Robert Green Ingersoll~

nailingit — December 13, 2012 at 11 a.m. ( | suggest removal

the GOP, in it's never ending quest to cut social programs, brings up another irony. 9 out of 10 states that receive the largest surplus (surplus being amount received minus amount paid in) of federal tax dollars for such programs are red states.

10 out of 10 states with the largest deficits (deficits being amount paid in minus amount received) are blue.

So it appears the folks Romney called moochers are mostly the folks that voted for him. Didn't he get about 47% of the vote?

mrd — December 13, 2012 at 11:53 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Nate Silver to Jonathan Karl last night in an interview: Pundits are useless.

“I don't want to totally lump reporters and pundits in together, right? It's kind of venial sins versus cardinal sins basically -- right? -- where reporting is very, very important and journalism is very, very important, and there are some things about campaign coverage that I might critique. Whereas punditry is fundamentally useless.”

Amen, Nate.

By the way, he was wearing a very cool Cookie Monster T shirt when he interviewed with Conan.

manthou — December 13, 2012 at 12:01 p.m. ( | suggest removal

*The politics of the GOP favor the rich.* - mrd — December 13, 2012 at 7:51 a.m

only to a biased mind.

the current political war is between those who want what others have workd for, and those who want to give their OWN money to places **they choose** to receive it.

i'm old, disabled and receiving ssi. do i feel entitled to it? yes. *i worked for it*

i also receive additional help with medical deductibles and premiums. do i feel entitled to it? *no.* am I grateful that my country provides a way for a disabled person with no other options to still receive help? ***yes***.

i doubt that there's a republician consensus anywhere in the country that would deny me help.

however, if i were a drug-using otherwise able-bodied person receiving the same benefits...yeah. there'd be 'issues'. welfare 'baby mommas' whose plan for support relies primarily on the gvt welfare programs? **youBetcha** we have issues.

the usa was founded, and prospered under, *the freedom of the individual*. want greece? france? spain? good, cuz we're headed there.

just remember what maggie thatcher said about socialism: "it's great, until you run out of other people's money".

DeeLittle — December 13, 2012 at 12:08 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Susan Rice withdrawing herself from Sec. of State consideration. The misleading loudmouthed politicians on the right get a victory.

They were all over her like, white on rice.

nailingit — December 13, 2012 at 12:51 p.m. ( | suggest removal

mrd — December 13, 2012 at 11:53 a.m.

The numbers you are using are deceiving, major corporations and their tax dollars are headquartered in states like New York and California, skewing their numbers. If you use the per capita from the Government figures, you get a much more realistic picture of the "givers" and "takers. Yes some "red" states are high on the list but some "blue" states are also. When you use distorted figures or "cherry picked" data, it just becomes a political talking point with no grounding in fact.

frobert — December 13, 2012 at 12:59 p.m. ( | suggest removal

"however, if i were a drug-using otherwise able-bodied person receiving the same benefits...yeah."

Now, why did you have to go there, Dee?

Allow me to begin the debate with, what if you were *not* a drug-using otherwise able-bodied person? Meaning, not a doper, but just lazy and on the dole? Is being on the dole okay as long as a person isn't a doper?

Should folks with drug dependence/abuse issues receive *any* public assistance? If not, why? If so, how much for how long and to what depth?

Define "drug-using."

I couldn't give a fat rat's about dems, the GOP, religion, homosexuals, doves, eagles, rights, lefts...

Your quoted sentence pokes me though. Doink, doink...

Get back to me, will ya? I'm about to go pitch a game of shoes, but I'll pop in here after a bit.

Drift — December 13, 2012 at 1:25 p.m. ( | suggest removal

*Sounds good to me!*

**'Sequestration II': The Latest Stupid Idea That People Will Be Stupidly Talking About**

"Instead of coming up with schemes to hurt the American people if no grand bargain is reached," Matt Yglesias suggests, "come up with a scheme to hurt the politicians in question." Exactly. If we come to the point where we are talking about a second set of sequestration "trigger" cuts, then we need to aim the trigger at lawmakers. Your lawmakers will never be motivated by the pain that could be visited upon you, so we need to force them into a position where they start bearing the cost for their incompetence.

Ideally, the punishments meted out should begin reasonably and eventually proceed to levels that are both cruel (so that it really hurts them) and comedic (so that we can all enjoy it). So, let's say that their failure to act should trigger a massive reduction in their take-home pay, right off the bat. After another week of inaction, they lose their office funding. A third week costs them their family health benefits. A fourth week costs them their privileges. After five weeks, they get punched in the face every day. And we continue from there, until their punishments are so severe and their public humiliation so acute that they are desperate to come to an agreement.

Naturally, we live in a free society, and there is no reason why anyone should feel forced to endure this if they don't want to, so I'll suggest that any lawmaker who cannot endure this pain is allowed to end it immediately by using the "safe word," which in this case would be, "I resign, effective immediately."

If we must have some set of triggered mishaps and punishments, then this way probably leads to better overall outcomes for actual human Americans than any other. So anyone who suggests any other kind of "Sequester II" is a straight-up monster.

nailingit — December 13, 2012 at 2:22 p.m. ( | suggest removal

nailingit — December 13, 2012 at 12:51 p.m.

Seems to me after a prejudicial wisecrack like that one, you appear to be the one on the downward spiral. Maybe you should heed your own advice and take that little break you offered me.

Speaking of your advice @10:01 am, I would like to note how you separated discussion points between Frobert and ELISI...but not between ELISI and myself which misleads others into thinking we're one in the same. I'm flattered by that misconception but it's also proof positive that you indulge in the deceptive game when utilizing a discussion forum. Could that mean that your discussion points are also bred with deception??? need the break my friend. Your confusion continues to emanate from your posts lately.

goldenoldie — December 13, 2012 at 3:20 p.m. ( | suggest removal

You can decide if it's grounded in fact.

mrd — December 13, 2012 at 3:46 p.m. ( | suggest removal

elisi @ 3:20 *I would like to note how you separated discussion points between Frobert and ELISI...but not between ELISI and myself which misleads others into thinking we're one in the same.*

Whatever do you mean...

*you indulge in the deceptive game when utilizing a discussion forum.*

You should be able to articulate your thoughts without the use of multiple avatars such as you do.

I hope that's clear enough for you.

Now move on please, and if you must fight, fight with someone else.

nailingit — December 13, 2012 at 4:14 p.m. ( | suggest removal

mrd — December 13, 2012 at 3:46 p.m.

The basic premise doesn't work when compared to the per capita income per state.

frobert — December 13, 2012 at 4:20 p.m. ( | suggest removal


yes, orange of another color.

soapbox4u — December 13, 2012 at 4:21 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Actually this one fits too. Maybe all of them.;=2wQUW7Jsxs0

soapbox4u — December 13, 2012 at 4:23 p.m. ( | suggest removal

LOL, yet another.

soapbox4u — December 13, 2012 at 4:28 p.m. ( | suggest removal

soap- Funny funny stuff!

@ 4:30...I need to get a magnifying glass and a dog...

nailingit — December 13, 2012 at 4:41 p.m. ( | suggest removal

i guess if we go with your case, it blows holes in this one. I believe the reference is to GOPers.

"Studying the trends, avoiding needless spending, keeping ahead of the game and planning for their future in a conservative fashion along with hard work has a lot to do with it."

mrd — December 13, 2012 at 4:46 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Drift @ 1:25 pm: Glad you were on that one. I started to reply, but gave up and went for a walk with my dog. How was your game of shoes?

Eli Sanders of The Stranger was out in the UW district, polling all the dealers selling bud on how they think 502 will hurt or help their business. Some very interesting answers. If you don't read The Stranger daily, you are missing some good, "alternative" journalism that is smart and funny.

manthou — December 13, 2012 at 4:50 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Hey, soapbox4u: I LOVE the Annoying Orange.

Bob Jenz does an another character that is my favorite: Zombie George Washington:

[link text][1]


manthou — December 13, 2012 at 4:58 p.m. ( | suggest removal

manthou, I think Zombie George Washington might end up dying of starvation, considering how often branz are lacking anymore. How do you get a link text or actual player frame to show up in here?

soapbox4u — December 13, 2012 at 5:10 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Massive Surveillance Program Uncovered by the Wall Street Journal: Yikes.

I would link to the primary source material, but the WSJ is now behind a paywall. :(

You will have to get the scoop from Slate:

[link text][1]


manthou — December 13, 2012 at 5:15 p.m. ( | suggest removal

soapbox4u: That's buwaaaaaains and boy, do I agree!

Here is how to link: On my computer screen, when I type my oh-so important message in the little blue box, I can see a list of menu items above the top:

Bold Italic Link Quote Numbered List Bulleted list Help Embed

Select "Link" and cut and paste the url after the http://

I have not mastered any of the other tricks, unfortunately.

manthou — December 13, 2012 at 5:19 p.m. ( | suggest removal

nailingit — December 13, 2012 at 4:14 p.m.

Move on, eh... So you have the right to blast me more than once with false accusations then have the audacity to ask me to move on??? Sorry Bub...not till I say my peace.

You claim I post with multiple avatars. Care to show proof?

You claim I play a deceptive game in the forum. Care to show proof?

Whether you believe it or not, you have also complimented me by mentioning "You should be able to articulate your thoughts without the use of multiple avatars such as you do." I believe I have articulated my thoughts just fine, so thanks! And just to get the record straight with you...I only post as goldenoldie.

That's "g - o - l - d -e - n - o - l - d - i - e"

I guess someone is a little pissy because they displayed pure prejudice to the world in their thoughtless post. Heed your own advice and take a break. Then you can take off those hip waders caked in mud.

goldenoldie — December 13, 2012 at 5:25 p.m. ( | suggest removal

soapbox- The site has also been experiencing tech difficulties since last week.

I miss posting my meaningless, bias youtube vids. :)

nailingit — December 13, 2012 at 5:27 p.m. ( | suggest removal

I me I me I me I I I me I me.... *Sorry Bub...not till I say my peace.*

You've had it, now move on.


nailingit — December 13, 2012 at 5:34 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Empty and false accusations with no proof to back up your statements. Just a hit and miss again, eh nails?

You want me to move on. Fine, but I expect the same in return.

Fair enough???

goldenoldie — December 13, 2012 at 5:47 p.m. ( | suggest removal


soapbox4u — December 13, 2012 at 5:56 p.m. ( | suggest removal

thanks manthou, nails for the link info!

soapbox4u — December 13, 2012 at 5:57 p.m. ( | suggest removal

wait for it, wait for it..........

soapbox4u — December 13, 2012 at 6 p.m. ( | suggest removal

*Pass the tax cut for the 98% & work the rest out later.* *Once again the right is wrong.*

*High-End Tax Hikes Would Have 'Negligible' Impact On Growth, Revised CRS Report Says*

WASHINGTON -- A Congressional Research Service report that was reissued Thursday after Republicans complained about it before the elections still finds little evidence that the Bush-era tax cuts spurred growth or that hiking the top rates would have more than a "negligible" impact on the economy.

The CRS study did find, however, that the lower tax rates in place since 2001 have had a strong impact on increasing income inequality in America.

"Analysis of such data conducted for this report suggests the reduction in the top tax rates has had little association with saving, investment, or productivity growth," the study says. "It is reasonable to assume that a tax rate change limited to a small group of taxpayers at the top of the income distribution would have a negligible effect on economic growth."

nailingit — December 13, 2012 at 6:18 p.m. ( | suggest removal

I just gone done on another site - voted this as the best Zeppelin song of all. I expect a lot of disagreement, but...

roger — December 13, 2012 at 6:38 p.m. ( | suggest removal

OK - That sucks. Gallows Pole. This is from a '95 Page/Plant tour.

roger — December 13, 2012 at 6:40 p.m. ( | suggest removal

"Drift @ 1:25 pm: Glad you were on that one. I started to reply, but gave up and went for a walk with my dog. How was your game of shoes?"

I was going to write something about my shoes being "weapons of mass...," and "I like to pitch the bomb with my Stingers," and anything else I could think of to cue an algorithm to pick my post out for scrutiny.

Truth is, I didn't pitch. By the time I finished up a couple of little chores the S-I-L was called for a side job. I went tub'ing instead. The water was... gee, hot.


Drift — December 13, 2012 at 6:46 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Nailingit, anyone: The link I posted at 5:15 got lost in the back-and-forth, but I would really like someone's feedback on what you make of it.

We are not talking about surveillance of the "bad" guys: we are talking about surveillance of you and I (how good we are may be debatable, but we are not terrorists).

From what I can glean from the article, some intelligent goons will be trying to find some patterns, some clues to our behaviors and choices and then try to PREDICT whether we are gonna do something bad.

Kind of like civil commitment where the government locks away the mentally ill (and sex offenders) based on what they MIGHT do.

The public is not fully comprehending the possibilities for privacy invasion and freedom here. It was OK when we were taking away the civil liberties of sex offenders, but now that it touches us (perhaps), maybe folks will wake up and start screaming about their own civil rights??

manthou — December 13, 2012 at 6:49 p.m. ( | suggest removal

**DRIFT**: *Now, why did you have to go there, Dee?*

i humbly and earnestly apologize to all of you recreational-using, gainfully employed drug add-, uh, citizens. yeah, citizens.

i gratefully accept your suggested edit.

one by one. our constitutional freedoms get dismantled. 2nd amendment, then freedom of religion, now freedom of speech (if you're not union-certified) and TA DA! on to the fourth.

the only thing that could POSSIBLY mitigate for this coruption of our freedom is terrorism. for that, we *could* create a special judical court; part constitutional, part military/intelligence, to handle the unique safety and time needs and still protect our 4th amendment right.

DeeLittle — December 13, 2012 at 7:25 p.m. ( | suggest removal

manthou — December 13, 2012 at 6:49 p.m.

Sounds like NEW EMPLOYMENT opportunities. They're going to need someone to watch all those people. Right? Corruptible people? Bought off corruptible people?

Watch NCIS L.A. sometime. Those guys have all the toys.

hawkeye — December 13, 2012 at 8:18 p.m. ( | suggest removal

***This is just wrong***

Twinkie CEO Admits Company Took Employees Pensions and Put It Toward Executive Pay

[link text][1]


BTW, thanks manthou for the link info

hawkeye — December 13, 2012 at 9:36 p.m. ( | suggest removal

manthou @ 5:15- My takeaway from the article is I think it's government overreach to the umpteenth degree.

The best thing I remember about the Bush presidency, was that I spent it overseas. :) But I remember when the Patriot Act went into effect it allowed our government to monitor any American citizenry overseas communication to and from overseas without any cause. So brazen and intrusive, figuring it must be the tip of the iceberg.

Don't worry about that clicking on your phone...

Something disturbing in the read, our government sharing personal information/data with other countries. Great makings for a made for TV flick. A bad one.

Perhaps my favorite Justice of all time said it so well, after all, who better to look to?

*If the right to privacy means anything, it is the right of the individual, married or single, to be free from unwarranted governmental intrusion.*

~William J. Brennan~

nailingit — December 13, 2012 at 10:13 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Read somewhere where the American ruling class needs austerity measures imposed ala Spain, et all. Difference is our ruling class has learned not to leave such an obvious trail as did their European counterparts. No direct line back to the politicians and bankers, that invites social unrest, so the line back to the the realm of the ruling class must be blurred. So as we play the blame game on our political parties for inaction or even their actions, the real action is being controlled by the guys behind the curtain, and the results will be politically kind of neutral irregardless of what our politicians do. Because no matter what our politicians do-their foremost aim must be delight their handlers.
Our ruling class, as in Europe, needs the government to appear solvent-they can't milk a dry teat-so they will do so, the rest of us be damned. They don't need an American middle class anymore so they're not too concerned. Or so the article's author thinks. He made a pretty good case.

mrd — December 13, 2012 at 11 p.m. ( | suggest removal

so **mrd**, who belongs to this ruling class?

DeeLittle — December 13, 2012 at 11:08 p.m. ( | suggest removal

manthou — December 13, 2012 at 6:49 p.m.

Conspiracy theorists thrive on government measures intended to protect Americans from those who don't have our best interests at heart. Yeah, every living individual in the US can and most like are being watched, but it takes a certain pattern of activities in your lifetime for the surveillance to be indicative of possible charges brought against you (not meaning you, specifically of course...just a figure of speech).

My philosophy...if you have nothing in your past or present lifestyle which puts you in the limelight of government surveillance, then you have nothing to worry about when it comes to them watching over you. It's been proven time and time again that the ones who are disrupting our lives by instilling fear of terror in our minds, could be the neighbor's kid or the local merchant. Really, it's not up to us to decide just who the government should be watching.

I noticed the article mentioned the issue of them drowning in data. This tells me...they're looking for those who raise certain red flags connecting them to terrorist activities which puts our nation at risk.

IMHO...I'd rather they be watching all of us then just focusing on a few.

goldenoldie — December 14, 2012 at 6:37 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Drift, in case you missed it:
The Associated Press

WASHINGTON — President Barack Obama says he won't go after Washington state and Colorado for legalizing marijuana.

In a Barbara Walters interview airing Friday on ABC, Obama is asked whether he supports making pot legal. He says - quote - "I wouldn't go that far."

But the president won't pursue the issue in the states where voters legalized the use of marijuana in the November elections. Marijuana remains illegal under federal law.

Obama says - quote - "It does not make sense from a prioritization point of view" to focus on drug use in states where it is now legal.

Marijuana officially became legal in Washington state last week; it becomes legal in Colorado next month.

Read more here:

david98686 — December 14, 2012 at 6:50 a.m. ( | suggest removal

I hadn't seen that, David. Thanks.

In my opinion the feds are between the proverbial rock and hard place. If they intervene they will be seen as jack-booted thugs. If they don't (something about dominoes goes here).

Frankly, Dave, I'll believe the citizens of this state have pulled this off when I walk through the door of a cannabis retail store.

Hmm, I wonder what kind of impossible zoning requirements the city will enact.

Drift — December 14, 2012 at 7:06 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Drift: 5oo ft.? Sedro Woolley only has one industrial zone I believe. I must be less than 1000 ft. of something so they ignore the law as needed:
SEDRO-WOOLLEY — Medical marijuana patients may now grow cannabis together in certain parts of Sedro-Woolley.

The City Council voted 6-1 Wednesday night to approve an ordinance that allows medical marijuana collective gardens in industrial zones but bans them elsewhere in the city. Such gardens may have no signage besides an address and may not be within 500 feet of a school.'

david98686 — December 14, 2012 at 7:18 a.m. ( | suggest removal


It seems to me a few years ago Ca. voted to legalize pot, but the feds stepped in and told the state noway. Told Ca if they kept it legal that they wouldn't receive any federal money.

Now if that's true, how can the feds turn a blind eye to Wa when saying no to Ca?

ELISI — December 14, 2012 at 7:20 a.m. ( | suggest removal



Posted on December 13, 2012 at 8:32 PM

Updated today at 12:21 AM

Spokane, Wash – Even though you can light up, you can't buy pot. But in less than a year, that’ll probably change.

Spokane's city council and planning commission are already starting to figure out how the city's going to handle incoming marijuana businesses. Spokane City Council members said they want to get the city prepared for the inevitable new business. According to the Spokane City Council, the state’s liquor control board has until Dec. 1 to write the rules, and have licenses ready to hand out.

Councilman Jon Snyder said, in the mean time, the City of Spokane needs to figure out where new stores can go. The way Initiative 502 is written, the liquor control board isn't allowed to issue a license to a marijuana business within 1,000 feet of schools, playgrounds, parks, libraries, public transit centers among a few others. So it's the planning commission's job to identify certain areas of town that will legally work.

Snyder said the city has a lot of work to do to get ready, but it's important to do it now. That way the community will be protected, and people can profit from what could be a lucrative business.

“We need to engage folks who want to get into the marijuana business and see what their concerns are, landlords, what their concerns are. Real estate folks. This is the time for people to start think about how this will actually work,” Snyder said.

Here are a few important dates you need to know:

-Feb. 10 is the last day the liquor control board will accept public comment before drafting rules for marijuana producers. A producer is someone who can produce and sell marijuana.

-The first public hearing will be on April 10.

-May 18 the rules for marijuana producers become effective, which will lay out parameters and how to go about opening a business.

-Shops will be able to open their doors December 1.

david98686 — December 14, 2012 at 7:33 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Here we go again...

**Pentagon to send missiles, 400 troops to Turkey**

The U.S. will send two batteries of Patriot missiles and 400 troops to Turkey as part of a NATO force meant to protect Turkish territory from potential Syrian missile attack, the Pentagon said Friday.

Defense Secretary Leon Panetta signed a deployment order en route to Turkey from Afghanistan calling for 400 U.S. soldiers to operate two batteries of Patriots at undisclosed locations in Turkey, Pentagon press secretary George Little told reporters flying with Panetta.

Germany and the Netherlands have already agreed to provide two batteries of the U.S.-built defense systems and send up to 400 German and 360 Dutch troops to man them, bringing the total number of Patriot batteries slated for Turkey to six.

[link text][1]


ELISI — December 14, 2012 at 7:35 a.m. ( | suggest removal

ELISI — December 14, 2012 at 7:20 a.m.

The threats were mad prior to the vote and the people voted against legalization. Alaska however has had legal marijuana since 1975 and they receive the most federal money per capita of any State.

frobert — December 14, 2012 at 7:39 a.m. ( | suggest removal

david98686 — December 14, 2012 at 6:50 a.m.

Obama also promised not to waste resources going after medical marijuana facilities, than this past September they raided more facilities in one day than the Bush administration did in eight years.

frobert — December 14, 2012 at 7:42 a.m. ( | suggest removal

*Frankly, Dave, I'll believe the citizens of this state have pulled this off when I walk through the door of a cannabis retail store.*

Drift — December 14, 2012 at 7:06 a.m.


nailingit — December 14, 2012 at 7:58 a.m. ( | suggest removal

'Frankly, Dave, I'll believe the citizens of this state have pulled this off when I walk through the door of a cannabis retail store.'
I believe the same, just posting current related events that might be relevant to Vancouver and Clark Counties positions one Cannabis zoning regulations and moratoriums.. ;)

david98686 — December 14, 2012 at 8:14 a.m. ( | suggest removal

The 1000 feet rule is related to federal law. Violating the current prohibition laws within that distance invokes a sentencing "enhancement." I've always found that rather humorous for several reasons. One is, most any high school kid can have you a bag of weed in less than 30 minutes. The second is, there's no prohibition on medicine cabinets, convenience stores, pharmacies... I'm in the same room with cannabis plants daily. Not once, nary a single time, have I had one reach out and grab me.

The feds can threaten all they care to, ELISI. The citizens of WA. and CO. have already passed their initiatives. Colorado has cultivation. Even if the feds raid retail outfits, anyone of an adult age may grow six plants. The feds can't raid home after home after home...

Other states are currently looking at some form of cannabis legalization, through both the legislative and initiative process.

The camel, he's in up to his hump.

And let's not forget industrial hemp, eh? Ask yourself why the U.S. is the only "industrialized nation" that forbids its cultivation. Could corporate greed have a hand in that - here in the United Corporations of America?

Drift — December 14, 2012 at 8:22 a.m. ( | suggest removal

david- I hope things work out. Vancouver has it's share of conservative thinking politicians who might obstruct progress.

Time to get pot rescheduled/decriminalized at the Fed level imo.

I say conservative thinking as opposed to liberal or progressive mindsets because of ingrained obstructionist DNA on the right. After all, in a big way enactment will boil down to those we elected locally. I'd like to know where our local leaders stand on this.

Lou B. if you're out there. - Sounds like a newsworthy item for the C. It'd make for a great "Press Talk" feature, and might get some national attention...

nailingit — December 14, 2012 at 8:43 a.m. ( | suggest removal

David @ 8:14

I wasn't questioning *you*, David. I was merely making a general statement.

As far as the puritanical governance of our community; the people behind the curtains, the "not in my backyard!" zealots... I'd recommend they loosen their ties before they find themselves hanging by them (metaphorically speaking).

Whether a person uses cannabis (for whatever reason) or not, I would think the folks of our community might wonder why things are done differently in the rest of our state. Maybe begin to wonder if they aren't living in a community severely repressed by individuals not even elected by the voters. Does anyone here recall seeing Axel Swanson's name on a ballot? Did you vote for a city attorney?

Take the time to watch a rerun of a commission or council meeting on the subject (CVTV). It's perfectly clear those individuals haven't a clue what is on the table and are blindly following their consultants' advice.

What folks don't seem to realize is, what the city and county are doing (done) goes far beyond a few pot plants. What they have done is misconstrued, misconstructed, and blatantly violated legislative law.

Today they are tramping on the rights of a few sick folks who use a weed for its medicinal effects. If they can get away with that...

Drift — December 14, 2012 at 8:50 a.m. ( | suggest removal

As in analyst, not commissioner (Swanson)

Drift — December 14, 2012 at 8:55 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Lou doesn't read our stuff, nail. He pops in now and again for a token visit and that's it.

Drift — December 14, 2012 at 9:03 a.m. ( | suggest removal

nailingit — December 14, 2012 at 8:43 a.m.

Again, you are trying to blame the liberal concept of marijuana prohibition on conservatives. Extreme conservatives like Barry Goldwater, George Schultz and Ron Paul have all called for eliminating prohibition. You can blame alcohol prohabition on conservatives but not marijuana, both the marijuana tax act and the controlled substances act were passed by liberal congresses.

frobert — December 14, 2012 at 9:11 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Freedom of Speech reigns in this Florida city that has allowed the placement of a beer-can ornamented Festivus Pole next to the Nativity Scene:

[link text][1]


manthou — December 14, 2012 at 9:17 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Drift @ 9:03- First time I've e-mailed the big guy in charge. I asked him to consider the idea.

I suggested interviewing our local politicians, a few locals, an activist or two (Drift?) and business entities who might get involved, to include profiling political demographics here and there.

Maybe the C can get the inside local info and color it nationally.

I haven't witnessed very good media coverage with the change. A lot of angle's with this subject and who better than the C to do it?

nailingit — December 14, 2012 at 9:40 a.m. ( | suggest removal

frobert @ 9/11

Just say no.

nailingit — December 14, 2012 at 9:43 a.m. ( | suggest removal

I contacted the Columbo quite some time back and offered an interview from a "stake holder." They didn't bite.

I'd be open to it still, but it'd have to wait about a week. I won't offer details here, but I'll say there's a legal document floating around out there I'd like signed before I'd be willing to speak "publically."

Though, I suppose it wouldn't really matter. I'd require anonymity to be interviewed. The authorites aren't my concern. "They" know who I am. It's those darned robbers.

Drift — December 14, 2012 at 9:58 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Thanks for the link info manthou.

To those who haven't been watching the news, the biggest school shooting in American history has taken place today. Current count is 27 dead, to include 18 kids. :((

The school is elementary K-4..........................

[link text][1]


nailingit — December 14, 2012 at 10:09 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Innocent lives lost...

My thoughts and prayers pour out to the families of the shooting victims in Newtown, Connecticut.

Such a senseless, selfish act by the shooter...


goldenoldie — December 14, 2012 at 10:12 a.m. ( | suggest removal

nailingit: Tragic. Horrifying. No words in my vocabulary to describe this latest mass shooting.

Schools are supposed to be safe. Is this an example of copy-cat contagion? More questions than answers. My heart breaks for the victims and their devastated families and community.

manthou — December 14, 2012 at 10:13 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Also, a knife-wielding man injured 22 innocent children as well as an elderly woman in an elementary school in Central China.

A home invasion by two perps in Denver set fire to four victims.

Gunman opens fire on shoppers in Clackamas Town Center, killing two and himself.

All in the manner of just a few days. going ON???

goldenoldie — December 14, 2012 at 10:18 a.m. ( | suggest removal

manthou- I don't know where you stand on gun laws, but I think we're long overdue for gun regulation.

The Brady Bill was watered down and today basically isn't enforced.

Dollars to doughnuts a gun show was involved with sales.

I own firearms and enjoy shooting, and in no way advocating firearms prohibition.

But we need some sensible measures put in place. At least prohibit sales to the mentally ill and take a look at ammo clips. There are many things that can be done without breaching the integrity of 2nd Amendment or infringing on the 10th.

One of the problems getting anything off the ground is the argument which flies mostly from the right, is that liberals have a "knee jerk" reaction to multiple firearm homicides.

In light of this latest tragedy, I hope knees not only jerk, but some type of reasonable legislation will have legs.

If we as a country refuse to have this conversation, things will just get worse.

They might anyway, the horse has left the barn, but at least it's a start.

nailingit — December 14, 2012 at 11:22 a.m. ( | suggest removal

nailingit: I believe in making legislative decisions based on current, peer-reviewed research and not emotion.

Public policy based on emotion is problematic. High-profile, low-incident occurrences have promoted some really bad legislation (Measure 11 in Oregon; civil commitment laws in some states) that give us an illusion of protection only. Some drain our state budgets significantly with little evidence-based practices to support their efficacy.

If we are going to spend our tax dollars, I want them spent on programs and laws that have been scientifically proven to work.

That being said:
My heart right now, my gut, my emotion tell me to get some stiff gun control legislation in the US ASAP. Children being slaughtered in their classroom is unimaginable to me.

The constitutional rights of individuals who choose to exercise the "right to bear arms" will weigh heavily because we honor the US Constitution.

I do know that, in spite of what we see on TV, that school violence has dropped in the US. That is the science right now.

I need to clear my head before I can offer any opinions, I guess.

manthou — December 14, 2012 at 12:14 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Understanding that we all need to deal with this immense tragedy in our own ways, some people might find the CDC link to school violence helpful at a moment like this:

[link text][1]


manthou — December 14, 2012 at 12:24 p.m. ( | suggest removal

manthou-Thanks for the CDC link. My daughters school just called and said they are beefing up security.

Our President just addressed it and could not hold back the tears. This is gut wrenching stuff.

Some of the details are just devastating.

*I believe in making legislative decisions based on current, peer-reviewed research and not emotion.*

I absolutely agree. Although sometimes it takes emotion to drive an issue, and tragedy for it to be addressed.

Just some common sense stuff that is currently on the books but not being addressed would help.

[link text][1]


nailingit — December 14, 2012 at 12:35 p.m. ( | suggest removal

I'm totally opposed to gun control. But what else can we do to stop crazy stuff like this? This guy came in armed with a semiautomatic rifle, a semiautomatic pistol, and a "double tap" pistol - all military/law enforcement style weapons. He was also apparently wearing a flak vest (to go shoot up an elementary school). This was premeditated - his mother was the teacher in the classroom where he did most of the shooting, and someone (his father, per some reports) is dead in the parents' home. There's also a report about a brother dead in his home down in New Jersey. If you hate and want to kill your family - whatever. But 20 little kids?

roger — December 14, 2012 at 1:27 p.m. ( | suggest removal

This bill in Ohio was pushed forward hours ago. The bill has been tied to the Koch Bros funded ALEC.

Who could possibly go along with *a concealed-carry licensee no longer has to demonstrate competency when renewing the license.*

House Bill 495 essentially would treat concealed-carry licenses like drivers' licenses -- if you have one in another state, it would be recognized in Ohio.

In addition, the bill would allow people without concealed-**carry licenses to now carry loaded ammunition clips in their vehicles**, so long as they are stored in a compartment separate from the unloaded gun. It also would allow people to **bring their guns to the Statehouse or the Riffe Center parking garages on Capitol Square**, as long as the guns remain in their vehicles.

**The bill, pushed by the National Rifle Association and other Ohio pro-gun groups, also says that a concealed-carry licensee no longer has to demonstrate competency when renewing the license.**

nailingit — December 14, 2012 at 1:53 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Link to above article referenced.

[link text][1]


nailingit — December 14, 2012 at 1:57 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Nailingit...for once, I am in agreement with you today...that is, when it comes to gun control. Things are definitely out of hand lately with too many needless deaths caused by those with psychological issues obtaining heavy weaponry. The hard fact is though...some of these people don't own the guns they're using. They resort to theft as the young man did in the shooting at Clackamas Town Center or the gun(s) was(were) in the household and he had immediate access. Maybe gun lock-up laws need to be strictly enforced as well as the elimination of weapons such as the two young men have used this week. But then again...more intrusion on the American people??? Hard call.

We have to think first about where is it these guns are coming from.Gun shows...yes, but also from the black market, arms collectors, military surplus sales... If it's out there, they'll find it. And the type of ammunition they're using...I'm wondering why it's available at all. Maybe regulations on the type of ammo sold are necessary as well.

Is there actually a way we can reduce such violence as we have witnessed this week (even in our own backyard)...this year???

goldenoldie — December 14, 2012 at 2:33 p.m. ( | suggest removal

I am hearing of parents pulling their children out of school early today...and allowing them to forego the two short days next week, only to return after the first of the new year. Seems...nobody wants to take any chances.

Black Friday online sales were up 26% from last year.

Are we becoming an isolationist society???

goldenoldie — December 14, 2012 at 2:35 p.m. ( | suggest removal

I hate to say this...and I'm sure there will be some who totally disagree with me but I'm going to say it anyhow.

I believe the parents (and the community) of these killers are *partially* responsible. Could it be a genetic issue??? Hard to say. I believe the upbringing of these individuals, if studied...would find the children could not function well with their peers. Most likely their daily routines included the utilization of violent video games and viewing of movies not suitable for the younger group, allowing these thoughts to fester in the minds of the killers. These days, some parents expect their children to grow up faster than life intended. Too much put on the plate of the young child. Some times, it's a rather sedate lifestyle with little proactive activities in their daily routine. These people feel isolated from the rest of the world. They appear to be dysfunctional... paranoid and come from broken homes (not saying all children from broken homes have these issues. I speak only of those who have done the heinous acts such as the two this week) and have no direction of what they want to become. Lost souls, perhaps. And yes, lifestyle (diet and activities of daily living) has a lot to do with their actions. Proper nutrition most likely was substituted with growing years of nothing but junk food. No brain food.

Were the signs already there that these individuals had troubling issues which would lead them down the path to destruction??? Maybe, but they went ignored. People (parents and educators) most likely didn't want to accept that they had problems or the communication was lacking between parents and educators...nobody for these young men to turn to...or at least that's how they felt. Of course, this is my opinion. Anyone who wants to disagree with me...please share your thoughts on why you disagree. This is all too confusing and we're all left wondering....


A real tragedy...senseless.

My heart aches for all involved.

goldenoldie — December 14, 2012 at 2:45 p.m. ( | suggest removal

With all due respect for the tragedy in Ct, this, after all, is "merica". Shoot first and ask ??'s later. We need guns, check out the Supreme Court's ruling on Washington DC's handgun ban. The court ruled, and stated, in the majority opinion, we need guns to protect ourselves from each other. To me, that's the ultimate condemnation-we're simply a nation of thugs. Gotta have those ammo clips that hold 25 shots-you never know when your neighbor, you know, the guy next door, remember him? is gonna shoot you. Lock 'em and load 'em!

The government way, way back when, was operating on the cheap. An armed militia was way cheaper than arming them with government issued weapons. As about 98% of the population was simply surviving on a subsistence existence, and the guns were in the only in the posession of the wealthy. As a revolution was coming, good thing the "founding fathers" were able to direct it at the British, deflecting the rage and injustice away from themselves, as the French were unable to do. These slave owners wrote wordy chit, extolling the virtues of a free people, an irony that didn't escape the British.

mrd — December 14, 2012 at 7:42 p.m. ( | suggest removal

mrd — December 14, 2012 at 7:42 p.m.

Huh? Everyone had guns, except for perhaps the city folk. British accounts of Bunker/Breeds Hill say they got their butts kicked by that ragtag group because they were all excellent shots, and those hunting riles they were using shot further than the British muskets.

A few of the Founding Fathers, to include Jefferson, supported private ownership of firearms so people could protect their families and property against others.

But I do agree with your last observation - they were all quite long winded and pompous in their moralizing, weren't they? I think Patrick Henry was about the only one who got right to the point.

roger — December 14, 2012 at 7:53 p.m. ( | suggest removal

President Obama earlier stated that “…And we're going to have to come together and take meaningful action to prevent more tragedies like this, regardless of the politics."

“regardless of the politics” is a thing which ANY president could be expected to say.

”Politics” is all about what people think, and what people think the proper role of government is. To suggest that this is “nothing more than politics”, is to say that if you don’t agree with my thinking… then I’m right, and you’re wrong.

No? Then perhaps some of you can explain differing thoughts on the proper role of government… that is NOT based on politics.

kn_dalai — December 14, 2012 at 8:18 p.m. ( | suggest removal


ok. i'm gonna just say it and let the hate fall where it may.

I remember the old saying, “the greatest trick the devil ever played on Man was to convince him he didn't exist.”

this is what you get when you take God out of the schools, out of the public eye...out of society. 20 dead kindergartners.

There **IS** good and there **IS** evil. Call it God and Satan, right vs. wrong....whatever.

We have to live the way Jesus told us to because the alternative leads to a world where things like this happen.

The future is created by the smallest decisions each of us makes during our day. “A leaf falls in the Amazon and changes history” is more than just an interesting thought.

And for my friends here who are nonbelievers, please consider this. There's Christian religion, but also Christian philosophy. There's also Buddhist philosophy. Very similar. Can we come together as believers of the general philosophy of peace and brotherhood?

DeeLittle — December 15, 2012 at 2:16 a.m. ( | suggest removal

DeeLittle, thank you for coming forward to share your thoughts regarding just what is going on lately. You are not alone in your thoughts. I feel the same way. To those who aren't believers, I wish I could understand why a three-letter word is such a threat to their well being when the teachings of God are not intended to be such that hate comes into play with such fervor...especially when just the mention of God in public sends some into such a tailspin.

In the aspect of the fear of December 21, 2012 and what it might bring, according to some, there was speculation by some religious groups that this day (or the days leading up to it) could be the coming of the antichrist. It surely doesn't help the argument of skeptics after what has been happening lately.

It still baffles me how a mind could just snap and someone would resort to a violent end to their lives, taking innocents with them in the process. There's just no reason for such actions unless they've been led down the spiraling path in the direction of evil.

Last night, I spoke to two my children on the phone, parents of school-aged children in the same age group as those little angels in Connecticut...and I asked them to please hold their darlings a little closer with an extra hug from me. The little ones were already in bed so I hadn't had a chance to speak to them last tell them how much I love them...but I am blessed by knowing my little angels are safe but at the same time, I ache in my heart for the grief those families are enduring right now...and I ache in my heart for the emotions regenerated by this tragedy for parents who have lost their angels.

goldenoldie — December 15, 2012 at 5:25 a.m. ( | suggest removal

mrd — December 14, 2012 at 7:42 p.m.

Hmm...not sure where you are getting this information, but from my perspective, guns were used a long time ago...not only for military purposes but for a method of acquiring food for the family. Anybody caught packing pistols...were looking for trouble or were expecting it to find them. How is today any different?

As far as I'm concerned...Military Purposes and Acquisition of Game Meat should be the ONLY TWO REASONS why guns should be allowed.

goldenoldie — December 15, 2012 at 5:30 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Gold, re guns. I agree. We truly seem to worship guns in this country like no other. In my opinion, and I say it again, IN MY OPINION, we have a militia already, namely the National Guard. So for me, the argument so often made about the second amendment, that we all should be allowed guns, is wrong. If we all need weapons to protect ourselves from the rest of our society, that's just a sad commentary of what this society seems to be.

At least start controlling guns. It's a joke what we allow. I think it is about time we start talking about treatment of mental illness, finally get parity going for it, and have a conversation about prevention and treatment. Period. Let's also have a frank conversation why we in this country love dem weapons.

Evil is just a simple word. It does not address causes. (Not saying that I do not consider what happened to be evil). I might be heard calling Hitler evil on numerous occasions, but the background of his rise definitely has much more clearly defined causes.

Pardon if I am not too clear today. Too early and not enough coffee.

luvithere — December 15, 2012 at 6:53 a.m. ( | suggest removal

I think we're missing the point with all the talking about banning guns. The discussion should be about why so many are using them on crowds of innocent people. It should start with an acceptance that we've a history of killing for no apparent reason other than to instill fear - the Mongols, Vikings, Comancheros, Nazi Germans, Stalinist Soviets - the list is endless. Many others had weapons, but didn't use them like these people did. The common point is that these people had cultures (or subcultures) that accepted and embraced violence as a way of life. And we're in one of the worst cycles of this in our nation's history. Video games, movies, TV shows - no violence, no sale. (Gee - Tom Cruise's latest just had its release delayed.) Gang and other criminal killings barely get noticed; even sadistic serial killers barely get more than a yawn until their numbers become "impressive". And remember the "First Desert", when CNN had nightly blow by blow accounts of our air strikes on Baghdad - it was like a sporting event. (Which are also more violent - especially MMA, football and hockey.)

One could make a point with wanting to ban all firearms, or certain classes, but all we're doing is addressing the tool used. We need to start addressing the glorification of violence itself, and make some real decisions on what forms of "entertainment" should be banned. Constitutional arguments will be raised, but one can counter with that one of the paramount duties of government is to provide for the common defense - which includes defending against forces from within.

If up to me, I'd ban sport hunting. I was raised in a hunting society - but we ate what we killed, and the approach to hunting actually favored the animal. (Trust me - I had more damned deer and turkeys laughing at me....) But somewhere along the line hunters started getting together in groups and using dogs to drive the deer. And it has gotten progressively worse - there are too many out there who hunt for the sport of the kill. This needs to go away.

roger — December 15, 2012 at 7:22 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Roger - hear hear. Very good points.

luvithere — December 15, 2012 at 7:42 a.m. ( | suggest removal

DeeLittle: I appreciate your sharing your opinion at 2:16 am. Problem is, many of the shooters suffer from brain dysfunction/mental illness. Some may even have been raised in homes with a deep faith in God, went to church and Sunday School, Hebrew school, whatever.

Some even have pulled the automatic trigger because they truly believe that God told them to do so. I think this was the case in the Aurora shooting.

Just need to point out that, in most of these cases, we are dealing with someone who is very ill. Their thinking patterns are disordered and are not able to process information that way you and I do. However they were raised, whatever faith and ethics and morals their families may have instilled in them are hopelessly lost on a broken brain.

manthou — December 15, 2012 at 11:18 a.m. ( | suggest removal

manthou — December 15, 2012 at 11:18 a.m

If you don't mind, I'd like to add to your statement. Had the parents of the person who did all that damage yesterday known he was in distress and locked up their weapons, the damage might have been limited to his immediate family.

The responsibility of the gun is that of the gun owner.

hawkeye — December 15, 2012 at 11:40 a.m. ( | suggest removal

*I believe just a few weeks ago someone expressed concerned about people deemed mentally ill, possibly not being allowed to own a firearm.*

*And not long before that defending "stand your ground laws" when a 17 year old was gunned down, possessing nothing more dangerous than a bag of Skittles...and after police ordered his killer not to pursue. Even after this...people ran to this killer's defense.*

*Anyone defending the guy who opened up on the kids playing loud music?*

*Not trying to start anything, but it shouldn't take a tragedy of this magnitude to wake us up, but if it does at least some good can come out of this nightmare.*

*Our thinking/programming needs to be altered.*

*What deelittle expressed is the hook line and sinker many swallow with oddball conservative thought.*

Runner up to John McCain for republican presidential nomination in 2008.

**Mike Huckabee: Newtown Shooting No Surprise, We've 'Systematically Removed God' From Schools**

Former Arkansas governor Mike Huckabee (R) weighed in on the massacre at an elementary school in Newtown, Conn. on Friday, saying the crime was no surprise because we have "systematically removed God" from public schools.

"We ask why there is violence in our schools, but we have systematically removed God from our schools," Huckabee said on Fox News. "Should we be so surprised that schools would become a place of carnage?"

This line of reasoning isn't new for Huckabee.

Speaking about a mass shooting in Aurora, Colo. over the summer, the former GOP presidential candidate claimed that such violent episodes were a function of a nation suffering from the removal of religion from the public sphere.

"We don't have a crime problem, a gun problem or even a violence problem. What we have is a sin problem," Huckabee said on Fox News. "And since we've ordered God out of our schools, and communities, the military and public conversations, you know we really shouldn't act so surprised ... when all hell breaks loose."

Adam Lanza, 20, is the suspect in a school shooting that left 27 dead Friday, including 20 children. Lanza is reportedly the son of a teacher at the school where the shootings occurred.

nailingit — December 15, 2012 at 12:18 p.m. ( | suggest removal

*And then we have this idiot.*

*A couple forum wingers are always condemning our President as being divisive. Always claiming he is pitting Americans against each other. Ridiculous messaging to the Fox news crowd, but they suck it up.*

*This is what divides. Plain and simple for those that will see it.*

**Pat Robertson: Obama A 'Socialist,' Wants To 'Destroy' The United States (VIDEO)**

Televangelist Pat Robertson, host of the Christian Broadcasting Network's "700 Club," accused President Barack Obama of being a "socialist" who wants to "destroy" America.

"[Obama] wouldn’t admit to being a socialist but that’s what it is,” Robertson said on his show Thursday. “He has an agenda. Now Karl Rove was saying in an op-ed today that what the President is trying to do is set up the Republicans so they fight among themselves and therefore the party goes into disunity in the next election and Obama wins there. I don’t think he thinks that way. I think he thinks ideologically: 'I must cripple the capitalist class; I must cripple the business owners; I must destroy the free enterprise system in America.'”

Obama disputed charges of socialism in an interview with Miami's "Noticias Univision 23" Thursday when he was asked about Cuban-American voters who believe he favors "a socialist model for our country."

"The truth of the matter is that my policies are so mainstream that if I had set the same policies that I had back in the 1980s, I would be considered a moderate Republican," Obama said.

"I do believe that it makes sense that everyone in America, as rich as this country is, shouldn't go bankrupt because someone gets sick, so the things I believe in are essentially the same things your viewers believe in," Obama continued.

nailingit — December 15, 2012 at 12:18 p.m. ( | suggest removal

I might add to your comment Hawkeye, that it is possible that his mother did have them locked up. He forced her to unlock them and took her life to keep her quiet to what he was going to do.

Not you, I or anyone else know which way it went in that house yesterday morning.

There is so many factors to figure in this senseless act.

Again I wish the media would have withheld details on this until facts were found. I have heard so many differing stories I frankly don't know which is which.
I even heard at one point he'd killed a girlfriend and his best friend.

Fact, 6 adults and 20 children are dead. 20 children that had full lives ahead of them. No proms, graduations, college, weddings, no children of their own...

So terribly sad, I cried yesterday, I haven't felt this heavy in my heart since my mother died 5 yrs ago. All I wanted to do yesterday was to know that my oldest grandson made it through school yesterday ok and was home safe. It's hard living so far away and have to rely on phone calls or skype. He lives in a state that is very pro gun. I understand that they teach the kids there from day one guns are for hunting and protection from the animals. I am very thankful my soninlaw not only chain locks his guns, he also has locks on each trigger and they are locked in a gun safe. He triple locks his guns.

ELISI — December 15, 2012 at 12:37 p.m. ( | suggest removal

**re: mental illness discussion:**

Even schizophrenics rarely hurt others. Most of the mentally ill hurt themselves, while at the same time avoiding other people.

By the time you have nothing in you that says killing five-year-olds is wrong, mental illness isn't your problem. Being evil is. Having no conscience is.

You can have all the sympathy and understanding in the world for a rabid dog, but you still can't let it roam free.

DeeLittle — December 15, 2012 at 2:32 p.m. ( | suggest removal

You do realize, don't you Dee, that when one reads your 2:16 a.m. post and the one at 2:32 p.m. it appears you are comparing atheists with rabid dogs?

I'm sure that's not your intention. I just thought I'd ask for a bit of clarification. You know, just to be sure?

I mean, in your earlier post you practically infer a person that doesn't follow Jesus is evil. And in the later post evil is why children get slaughtered.

Again, will you please elucidate, clarify, something?

Drift — December 15, 2012 at 3:05 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Many would say Huckerbee has a mental problem, yet he was a RW runner up for the GOP pres nomination.

As a people, as a society it's hard to have a reasonable intelligent conversation about controlling gun violence when a fraction of the population believe, *"We don't have a crime problem, a gun problem or even a violence problem. What we have is a sin problem..."* and a significant part of our population either goes along or refuses to speak against this absurd line of reasoning that's publicly bellowed & being echoed here.

We can't fix "evil". But we can take a hard look at cause and effect. We need to get on a road of reason instead of this backwoods voodoo crap.

luvit @ 6:53- *I might be heard calling Hitler evil on numerous occasions, but the background of his rise definitely has much more clearly defined causes.*

Well said!

We need pragmatism to denounce voodoo conservatism in this arena that affects us all.

"And since we've ordered God out of our schools, and communities, the military and public conversations, you know we really shouldn't act so surprised ... when all hell breaks loose."

We need to denounce this "evil" that would harden our consciences from extreme violence and accept it as a result and consequence of not bowing down to a particular deity.

Let's smarten up as a nation for our children and future generations.

For God's sake.

nailingit — December 15, 2012 at 3:05 p.m. ( | suggest removal

DeeLittle — December 15, 2012 at 2:16 a.m.

I agree with you 100%

nailingit — December 15, 2012 at 12:18 p.m

Sorry I'm not buying it. I know what you posted is a load of donkey crap. Don't know how old you are (don't care) but I have lived long enough to have gone through the time when we did have prayer in our school to when it stopped.
When prayer was said before the start of each school day, and at lunch time, we had very little bullying, fighting in school. Then old mad hatter Madalyn got her way and prayer was removed from public schools. By then I was in 8th or 9th grade. We saw bullying, fights on the rise. By the time I was in high school everyday fights, students attacking verbally and physically teachers and other students, it has just gotten worse over the decades since.
Since God has been removed from so much of our daily lives, look at the crime rate, from the early 60's to now.
By blaming those who believe in God is just ludicrous.
Shameful, just plain out and out shameful of you to post things as that.
You don't believe, that fine, no one is trying to change your mind. It's very clear your mind is where you want it to be on this. But don't cram your beliefs down others throats. Yes, nailing you are the first to scream bloody murder if anyone speaks up about Christians and their make yourself very loud and clear.
Deelittle and the rest of us have just as much freedom of speech as you do to say what we want, when we want, about what we want without coming under attack.
You don't believe there is a God, fine that's your problem. You have no right to belittle anyone for believing what they chose.
Let me ask you this, ..If there is no God, then why are there atheists?

ELISI — December 15, 2012 at 3:18 p.m. ( | suggest removal


*please* tell me your joking.

DeeLittle — December 15, 2012 at 3:34 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Hey, ELISI, 2009's crime rate was about what it was in 1968. The homicide rate was the lowest since 1964.

"Let me ask you this, ..If there is no God, then why are there atheists?"

I don't slam anyone's religion. You can't find any evidence to the contrary here. ...pretty sure. So when I state the following know that it isn't religion I'm speaking to, it's your statement.

The answer is, because of the people. Not yours or any one elses god. Because of the people who would claim superiority due to their god.

You wanna go beat up nail? Have a ball. Point your comments at him. Please, don't get after each and every single individual that doesn't practice your faith. Or, any "faith."

Thank you.

Drift — December 15, 2012 at 3:41 p.m. ( | suggest removal

*By blaming those who believe in God is just ludicrous.
Shameful, just plain out and out shameful of you*

*load of donkey crap*.

*You don't believe, that fine*

*shameful of you to post things as that.*

*you are the first to scream bloody murder*

*You don't believe there is a God*

Always the victim ever the martyr. Quick to accuse, slow to understand and always personal.

You really know how to raise the level of a conversation.

Take a break...please. No one needs this..especially right now.

Yell into a pillow or something, do push ups, pray, whatever, again move on please. :(


nailingit — December 15, 2012 at 3:51 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Nope. Not joking, Dee. Go back and read both posts yourself.

I know it's way easy for the written word to be misunderstood.

From your response I gather what I questioned wasn't your intent. Is that correct?

Can you see how one might misconstrue your statements?

Drift — December 15, 2012 at 3:52 p.m. ( | suggest removal

*We need to denounce this "evil" that would harden our consciences from extreme violence and accept it as a result and consequence of not bowing down to a particular deity.*

I for one is NOT saying that is the sole purpose. The crime rate is up, violence is up...let see...the laws..since laws have changed over the years to the point many are just slapped on the hands and set free.
We need to stiffen the laws up.
Go back in history, look for yourself, when did the rates go up?
After the 60's and 70's. When the liberal minded decided we were way too tough on our juveniles and adults.
I think I read on here once someone saying the guy who got caught selling pot does more time in jail than a rapist. People committing murder at times gets 15 yrs or less. Some get paroled sooner. Why? You plan to take another life and do so, you do not deserve to ever walk free IMO. We need as a nation is to take a hard cold look at our laws before doing anything.

The shooting in Ct. many factors have to be looked at.
Was he bullied, abused at home, did he spend hrs upon hrs watching movies or playing violent video games, did he use drugs, is there any documentation of mental illness...etc etc.

So far no one has said if he or family attended a church or even believe in God.

ELISI — December 15, 2012 at 3:53 p.m. ( | suggest removal

*Always the victim ever the martyr. Quick to accuse, slow to understand and always personal.*

Never the victim nailingit, I don't allow others to have the power to make me mad.
No quicker to accuse than you are.
Yeah I take it personal when those lump all people who believe into one.
Take the time to get to know people of different walks you might surprise yourself in you'll find.

I ask again....

If there is no God, then why are there atheists?

ELISI — December 15, 2012 at 4:01 p.m. ( | suggest removal

*You wanna go beat up nail? Have a ball. Point your comments at him. Please, don't get after each and every single individual that doesn't practice your faith. Or, any "faith."
Thank you.
Drift — December 15, 2012 at 3:41 p.m*

Drift, my comment was pointed to him, not you or anyone else.
Sorry if you took it as an attack to you.
I have never seen you say one word against anyone's beliefs. I see you as one that is a live and let live attitude. Wish more people were like that. I only speak up about my beliefs when someone that hasn't a clue attacks them.

ELISI — December 15, 2012 at 4:10 p.m. ( | suggest removal

If there is no God, then why are there atheists?

ELISI — December 15, 2012 at 4:01 p.m.

I'd like to take a crack at this one, if you please....

Because people believe there is a god. Regardless.

hawkeye — December 15, 2012 at 4:57 p.m. ( | suggest removal

By denying there is a God, you are really admitting there is one.

One can't deny if there is no such being.

ELISI — December 15, 2012 at 5:57 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Elisi, Dee, et al. Wasn't going to comment, but I do feel quite offended and insulted. I am an atheist, I did not pray in school, and your comments did infer that those of us so inclined, are of lower morality etc etc. Last time I looked, I had quite a nice high level of ethics.

What kind of question is this: if there is no god, why are there atheist? How about, because someone labeled us as such because we do not have your faith???

Let's leave the motives and causes of the events up to those with knowledge and those with knowledge of the human mind, shall we?

I am not sure that some of these comments were not meant to be offensive. They sure are though.

luvithere — December 15, 2012 at 6 p.m. ( | suggest removal

One can't deny if there is no such being.

ELISI — December 15, 2012 at 5:57 p.m

Do you deny the existence of the flying spaghetti monster? You do? Therefore it does exists.

Just showing the fallacy in your premises.

luvithere — December 15, 2012 at 6:25 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Folks...I'm not going to get into the argument whether or not religion should be in our schools, thinking that would cure the problem as it won't. Yeah, you're hearing it from this who believes in the lessons of the Holy Bible...the word of God.

The situation isn't about faith. It's about a complete breakdown of our society. For one thing, it's about a lack of guidance our children so deserve and that guidance begins at home. Do I mean morning prayer...maybe, to some families...but it's also about teaching moral values and the importance of treating others as you would want them to treat you.

Whatever happened to kindness??? Honesty??? Compassion???

What I'm getting at is simple. Our schools are becoming too crowded. Budgets are at risk and schools are failing the students. I don't blame the educators. They have more than enough on their plates in following the ever evolving curriculum guidelines set forth by each state. And the children...they're being taught at a much faster rate than some of us were taught as children and many are still being left behind...not because of some mandate by a president but because of underlying issues including comprehension, sight or hearing impairment, speech issues, dyslexia...even mental illness. Mental illness covers a vast array of disorders and dysfunctions...some going unrecognized till after the fact. The teachers may see some signs...but that isn't their duty to be doctor and on occasion, parents find it to be a threat to their well being and are in denial of the possibility when it is mentioned to they ignore the problem till the student is transferred out of the school by order of the educators...into one for kids at risk, labeling the kid as "troubled."

Some parents...not are dealing with emotions they'd never expected. They never had such "treatment" when *they* were in school. The stereotyping begins for this youth at risk...and we all know who brutal other kids can be in schools nowadays.

Sad to doesn't end with school-aged children. It continues on through adulthood as well. Heck, we see it here all the time on the forum. A good example is the subject of religion...the believers versus the nonbelievers. Another...Repubs versus Demos. Lately, it's getting downright nasty on here...and we're supposed to be the mature group.

Whatever happened to acceptance of the difference of others???

goldenoldie — December 15, 2012 at 6:28 p.m. ( | suggest removal

I'm sorry that I offended you luvithere, I didn't mean too.

I'm offended almost daily with posts made belittling the Christian faith, posts that blame those that follow the faith for seems every thing that goes wrong. Posts that just plain make fun of. Much of the time I look the other way, keep my mouth shut, but then there are times when I have to stand up and speak my mind. Today was one of those times. One just gets to the point that you have had enough..I am sure you have felt that way at times also.

ELISI — December 15, 2012 at 6:33 p.m. ( | suggest removal

A trend which isn't in our best interest:

It was reported on the local news tonight that local gun shops have had a sudden spike in sales due to the Clackamas Town Center shooting and Newtown Connecticut shooting. People are even parking blocks away and waiting in line to make their purchases...stalling the approval process by as many as three hours. Say whaaaaat????

On the news segment, I saw one man with about 7 different types of ammo boxes he was purchasing. What the....??? Are they expecting a war in their neighborhood???

**One LOUSY excuse** - *the man literally said "I think they're gonna outlaw the sale of semi-automatics soon, so I'm goin' to get one."*

No joke, people. Shock news at its best.

goldenoldie — December 15, 2012 at 6:34 p.m. ( | suggest removal's the news segment regarding the gun sales:

goldenoldie — December 15, 2012 at 6:35 p.m. ( | suggest removal

ELISI — December 15, 2012 at 3:18 p.m.

I started grade school in the late '50s, and I don't ever recall praying in school. (Except the 2 weeks I spent in a Catholic school because the boiler in my school blew up, that is.) But we said the Pledge of Allegiance to start the day almost everywhere throughout my school days.

Didn't see too many girl fights, except in my junior high in Arlington VA (that was one tough school). But we boys fought just about everywhere. In fact, my good friend Jimmy, New Jersey in the 5th and 6th grade, was a Catholic boy who went to church, ate fish on Fridays, and all that other stuff they did - we fought all the time. (That's probably why we were such good friends.) But nobody ever thought of raising a hand to one of the teachers, even in that school in Arlington.

Sorry, Elisi - I don't think prayer and what kids do in school have any relationship. Kids are basically just undisciplined little heathens who need to be taught respect and self control by the adults in their life. That's what we used to get, and that's what's lacking with many today.

roger — December 15, 2012 at 6:39 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Okay now...I have to ask all you *"flying spaghetti monster"* followers....

Just what did the flying spaghetti monster evolve from? What is it's origin?

goldenoldie — December 15, 2012 at 6:40 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Thanks all, including Gold and Elisi. Much calmer now. LOL. I just don't like it when my ethics and morals get attacked - even if not directly addressed to me - just because I lack religion. And I don't like when people tell me that I am just mistaken and actually not an atheist. I respect your faith, please respect the absence of mine. (Not directed at a specific person here).

Glad conversation turns in the right direction again. Good points being made by all. Thanks, Roger, Goldie. As far as the flying monster. I got no idea either. Been around a long time. I really think it was a reaction to religion and attacks on those without. But I might very well be wrong. And I most certainly do NOT believe in such pasta being.

And now I go get me my college girl from the airport. Been too long. Extra hug to her today as today I am especially grateful she is around.

luvithere — December 15, 2012 at 6:48 p.m. ( | suggest removal

roger, sounds like we grew up about the same. You on the East coast and me on the West but not too differently. I think the "breakdown of society" started when they outlawed spanking. There are just some things that require it.

hawkeye — December 15, 2012 at 6:53 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Same as the other gods people worship - some other solar system.

Well, maybe the Flying Spaghetti Monster came from the Boiardee's plant - there was some strange stuff mixed in with the tomatoes we unloaded on the docks, and I doubt the ladies doing the sorting caught everything. Perhaps a batch got mixed up that turned into some sort of primordial goo, and a new deity was born.

And I've never eaten anything from The Chef's, or Franco American, since those days.

roger — December 15, 2012 at 6:54 p.m. ( | suggest removal

roger — December 15, 2012 at 6:39 p.m.

I too started school in late 50's grade school I went to 4 different schools in 3 states. Each had prayer after the Pledge of Allegiance. Jr high same until about the 9th grade when prayers were pulled.
We never seen fights until high school and 9 out 10 were boys fighting over a girl.

You said; "Kids are basically just undisciplined little heathens who need to be taught respect and self control by the adults in their life. That's what we used to get, and that's what's lacking with many today."

I agree 100%

ELISI — December 15, 2012 at 6:54 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Luvithere, our compassion for what we believe in is what keeps the world goin' 'round and 'round and 'round.

Regarding the flying spaghetti monster, some believe it evolved from the E.coli bacteria. Others believe it's just another rendition of how some perceive their maker. Either the theory of evolution, it's believed all is descended from a common ancestor. If that's true, then where did that common ancestor originate from??? Some call it the flying spaghetti monster (those who don't believe in God) and others say...God. There is also speculation that all that exists began with the Big Bang (no...not Jim Parson's show, either...although I love to watch that show, lol) Guess when it comes to where life originated...if we weren't there, we will never think???

Amazing how the mind thinks!!!

btw luvithere...that's FLYING pasta. You gotta be PC these days, you know.

goldenoldie — December 15, 2012 at 6:58 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Elisi, when I was little and went off to school, I heard the daily "mouth the teacher and you will get it when you get home". Sure didn't need anything after that. We never dreamed of mouthing teachers. Were taught to respect them and especially to respect our elders. Went a long way to shape us, I think. I drilled the same into my kid, and at times, I felt I was the only parent who ever said these words out loud.

luvithere — December 15, 2012 at 6:59 p.m. ( | suggest removal

goldenoldie — December 15, 2012 at 6:40 p.m

"flying spaghetti monster" ??????? LOL first I have ever heard that one!!

ELISI — December 15, 2012 at 7 p.m. ( | suggest removal

""" I think the "breakdown of society" started when they outlawed spanking. There are just some things that require it."""

I couldn't agree more!!!

goldenoldie — December 15, 2012 at 7 p.m. ( | suggest removal

roger — December 15, 2012 at 6:54 p.m.

Maybe after eating...a projectile, perhaps...ew!


goldenoldie — December 15, 2012 at 7:03 p.m. ( | suggest removal

The facebook side has sunk to a new low. It seems a lot of people think Hillary fell down and cracked her head to get out of testifying before Congress about the embassy attack in Libya.

roger — December 15, 2012 at 7:03 p.m. ( | suggest removal

I'd like to know exactly what it was I said that offended, well I guess, one avatar. Exaggerations and unfounded accusations have been this poster's signature since God knows when.

That and a penchant for fighting.

If my role is to be the pillow I spoke of, so be it. :)


nailingit — December 15, 2012 at 7:05 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Roger, the FB side is much much worse than the cellar. They sure get away with a lot over there.

luvithere — December 15, 2012 at 7:05 p.m. ( | suggest removal

nailingit — December 15, 2012 at 7:05 p.m.

I believe it originates in the copy/paste articles you present and their timing with regards to comments by others.

Yeah...we check 'em out.

I especially liked the one about the image on the shower wall. The first comment said it all..."Oh Lord." I remember in the past, someone said they had the image of the Virgin Mary in their grilled cheese sandwich. Another had Jesus Christ on the outside of their window. Amazing what a creative mind can concoct.

Just my two-cents' worth.

goldenoldie — December 15, 2012 at 7:17 p.m. ( | suggest removal

*with regards to comments by others.*

My God....we have to worry about posting articles because some view the comments of others?

Yeah....right. What a cop out for vilifying my comments and not backing up your reasoning.

This is why I let most insults slide. Just ridiculous stuff...

Again .. never mind........

nailingit — December 15, 2012 at 7:24 p.m. ( | suggest removal

nailingit — December 15, 2012 at 7:24 p.m.

No, not a cop out (and not intended to be an insult). As I'd said to luvithere...our compassion for what we believe in makes the world go 'round. I believe those timely articles spark thoughts and others aren't afraid to speak their minds. Sometimes...a lot of times in fact (I'm not denying it), the discussion gets a bit heated as we hold true to our beliefs. You as well, nails. You got heated just because I mentioned a thought...something that apparently sets off your "uh oh alarm" whenever you see goldenoldie post a comment to you. Nothing more, nothing less.

goldenoldie — December 15, 2012 at 7:31 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Sometimes it's weird to look through someone else's lens. It can make one appreciative of one's self to a degree.

*Yeah...we check 'em out.*

That's just kinda creepy...the *we* and all. Somehow I'm reminded of an Anthony Perkins movie when he played a taxidermist who ran a motel...


nailingit — December 15, 2012 at 7:39 p.m. ( | suggest removal


nailingit — December 15, 2012 at 7:39 p.m.

queue the Twilight Zone music

goldenoldie — December 15, 2012 at 7:43 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Well, I guess not much has changed basement wise, except a poster or two's minds with regards to gun control.

I've restrained myself commenting given the current atmosphere.

But someday....perhaps a conversation to have with a few reasonable folk who post here.

nailingit — December 15, 2012 at 7:49 p.m. ( | suggest removal

luvithere — December 15, 2012 at 6:59 p.m

I was raised with saying Yes sir and no sir. Never would I have even thought to speak badly to either of my parents let alone a teacher like some of the kids do today.

I over heard a 15 to 16 yr old girl tell her mom that if she didn't buy the jeans the teen wanted, that she (the teen) would do whatever she needed to do to embarrass the mom. The mom caved and bought them.

Now if my daughter would have ever done that to me, I would have told her...if you feel the need, go right ahead. I would at that point walked out and sat in my car until she was ready to go home. No jeans would have been bought.

ELISI — December 15, 2012 at 7:52 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Sharing this as it was shared with me..

**Morgan Freeman's brilliant take on what happened yesterday :**

**TURN OFF THE NEWS.......**

"You want to know why. This may sound cynical, but here's why.

It's because of the way the media reports it. Flip on the news and watch how we treat the Batman theater shooter and the Oregon mall shooter like celebrities. Dylan Klebold and Eric Harris are household names, but do you know the name of a single *victim* of Columbine? Disturbed
people who would otherwise just off themselves in their basements see the news and want to top it by doing something worse, and going out in a memorable way. Why a grade school? Why children? Because he'll be remembered as a horrible monster, instead of a sad nobody.

CNN's article says that if the body count "holds up", this will rank as the second deadliest shooting behind Virginia Tech, as if statistics somehow make one shooting worse than another. Then they post a video interview of third-graders for all the details of what they saw and heard while the shootings were happening. Fox News has plastered the killer's face on all their reports for hours. Any articles or news stories yet that focus on the victims and ignore the killer's identity? None that I've seen yet. Because they don't sell. So congratulations, sensationalist media, you've just lit the fire for someone to top this and knock off a day care center or a maternity ward next.

You can help by forgetting you ever read this man's name, and remembering the name of at least one victim. You can help by donating to mental health research instead of pointing to gun control as the problem. You can help by turning off the news."

ELISI — December 15, 2012 at 8:13 p.m. ( | suggest removal

ELISI — December 15, 2012 at 8:13 p.m.

Yet another reason why I like Morgan Freeman.

goldenoldie — December 16, 2012 at 5:23 a.m. ( | suggest removal

"But someday....perhaps a conversation to have with a few reasonable folk who post here."

Need that little comfort zone??? Sorry you feel that way. Never fear though...the few you seek will once again share discussion with you as they always do. The rest...a reasonable bunch - just have differing opinions, some even hold onto traditional values.

Definition of liberal: Open to new behavior or opinions and willing to discard traditional values.

A liberal mind is a terrible thing to waste.

*A recommendation to everyone* > Remember to preserve that open mind!


goldenoldie — December 16, 2012 at 6:03 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Just a little something I observed the other day while filling up the gas tank.

My wife and I watched a young lady walk back out to her car. My wife said to me that if her butt didn't stop wiggling after a few seconds she shouldn't be wearing a pair of tight fitting sweats that have "GLAM" printed on the backside.

I just about dropped the nozzle.

JohnCasey — December 16, 2012 at 6:35 a.m. ( | suggest removal

"But someday....perhaps a conversation to have with a few reasonable folk who post here."

*Need that little comfort zone??? Sorry you feel that way.*

I don't know why you feel a need to pick apart everything I say and distort it.


Yes, I would like to have a reasonable conversation about gun control with a few sensible folk once emotions have subsided, and recent victims are laid to rest. But even that is distorted and criticized.

You know no end when it comes to harassing those who don't share your ever changing and many times non-sensical views.


I've asked you before. Please leave me out of your dialogue. Please doesn't seem to help.

How about showing just a little bit of class.

nailingit — December 16, 2012 at 6:41 a.m. ( | suggest removal

*It's great we as a nation are finally talking reasonably/responsibly about positive change in our drug laws. Part of the effect of pot legalization. Let the domino's fall!*

Richard Branson's Son Challenges the War on Drugs in New Documentary
**'Breaking the Taboo'** features interviews with Bill Clinton, Jimmy Carter and more

Breaking the Taboo – a new documentary about the war on drugs – premiered last night at Google's New York headquarters, with stars including Katie Couric, Virgin mogul Richard Branson, Newark Mayor Cory Booker and Natalie Imbruglia in attendance. While the one-hour film is not available in theaters, it's streaming in its entirety online.

The web-only strategy is part of producer Sam Branson's plan to make the thoroughly researched anti-prohibition film a viral sensation, potentially inspiring serious drug policy reform. The filmmaker (who is Richard Branson's son) hopes to reach a wide audience for the all-star project – which includes never-before-seen interviews with former presidents Jimmy Carter and Bill Clinton, narration by Morgan Freeman and a trailer starring Kate Winslet.

The film's main message is that the substantial losses of life and freedom resulting from the war on drugs, not to mention the amount of money being spent, are just not worth the paltry results: A country that continues to consume and demand drugs from a fractured global market. "It's about putting the alternatives to the prohibitionist regime on the table," says Ethan Nadelmann, executive director of the Drug Policy Alliance. "Progress has been stymied, because the only options that can be discussed are ones that essentially are grounded in a law enforcement and prohibitionist approach."

Read more:
Follow us: @rollingstone on Twitter | RollingStone on Facebook

nailingit — December 16, 2012 at 6:59 a.m. ( | suggest removal

While I was waiting for my kid to get off work the other day I started to count how many bike riders were dressed in dark clothing with no lights or reflectors on their bike. (About 50%) It was about 5:30 on a wet night. I saw so many close calls that I thought for sure that there would be one hit.

This was in P-Town. It certainly is still weird. Some nights I count as many as 200 riders. I would estimate that at least 80% of them break the law. Sometimes it sounds like New York City at rush hour with all the horns blaring.

Fortunately there is a hospital real close so when they scrape them up there is still a chance to get body parts.

Some of the more outlandish outfits I saw; Ladies wearing skirts with high heels on, a lot of people with hoodies on and the hood up, and parents with those trailers for children. At this particular intersection vehicles run the lights all the time.

The one that really gets me are the ones wearing ear buds and not paying attention to the road or the signals. And to top it off there at least 50% NOT wearing some kind of head gear.

These people are just itching to get on that Darwin Award list!!

JohnCasey — December 16, 2012 at 7 a.m. ( | suggest removal

*A fun write with a great message.*

**Have yourself a merry atheist Christmas!**

By Penn Jillette, Special to CNN

If Christian philosophers get together and include all Americans in their holiday, if they don't exclude any children, if they can start with everyone loving the season, maybe the reason for it will sneak in -- like Hendrix's "Electric Ladyland" riding the Monkees' "Last Train to Clarksville."

Maybe the sanitized tiding of comfort and joy will lead people all the way to Christianity. There are many ways to proselytize. You could let the crucified Jesus ride in on Santa's sleigh.

Maybe Christians can slalom down that slippery slope.

That might be too manipulative and cynical for Bill O'Reilly. He might not want his Christianity philosophy to ride in on anything. Bill might prefer that one becomes a Christian first and then celebrates the season after earning it.

I can see that point of view. That's a noble point of view: that Christianity and atheism should compete fairly in the marketplace of ideas. Maybe I should have started with Hendrix and Zappa or not gotten into rock 'n' roll at all. That is the high road and I can respect that. But, wanting all children to enjoy the holiday season, with no child left out of the fun, doesn't seem like a position that's deserving of the term "war."

How about we spend some time this holiday season wishing that more of our wars will be waged like the atheist war on Christmas? The wars in the Middle East, waged mostly by members of the Abrahamic religions, kill a lot of people. The war on Christmas has killed no one.

The war on drugs kills many innocent bystanders and wastes a lot of money putting citizens in expensive prisons. American atheists are accused of a war that injures no one and saves all of us money and seems to promote real American values.

Let's either fight all wars like that or use a different term. Couldn't we at least call it "The honest disagreement about the Christmas philosophy?"

We're too busy singing, to put anybody down.

Read more @

nailingit — December 16, 2012 at 7:28 a.m. ( | suggest removal

*Laying the groundwork for man's opinion.*

**What the Founding Fathers Would Have Done About Gun Violence in America**

**Posted: 08/31/2012** 5:41 pm

Another day, another shooting -- this time by an ex-marine armed with an AK-47 at a PathMark in New Jersey, but what's new? Lately, mass shootings seem to have become a weekly sport, and even someone like me, who has written multiple articles on the subject, is becoming a little jaded to that red banner of "Breaking News" that announces yet another sickening tragedy. And that is the biggest problem of all: We are slowly but surely getting desensitized to the violence that is sweeping through our society and remain either indifferent or deliberately oblivious to the role that guns (and the overt aggression they represent) play in mass murders like the ones in Colorado, Wisconsin, and now New Jersey.

In order to address this issue effectively, we need to first reject the objections to gun control brought up by the Second Amendment fanatics, those people who are so enamored of the idea of private justice, anarchy, and insurrection that they lose their common sense and even their humanity in the face of these revolutionary fantasies. For my specific arguments against the Second Amendment, you can refer to my piece "Gun Control: It's Time to Challenge the Second Amendment," but in the wake of this latest shooting, I think it's worth considering what our Founding Fathers would have done if they had been confronted by such carnage in their own time.

Of course, for this analogy to be meaningful, it's necessary to imagine that the weaponry of the time had advanced to the level that we have today, because it's pretty hard to commit mass murder with the rickety weapons of the 1700s, like the flintlock fowler. So assuming a level playing field, would the Founding Fathers have removed the Second Amendment from the Constitution or abandoned the idea of empowering citizens to defend themselves because of a string of mass shootings? Not likely, but what they would have done is created a strong set of restrictions to ensure that guns were not abused by people to harm the welfare of their fellow citizens:

nailingit — December 16, 2012 at 8:06 a.m. ( | suggest removal

**Limiting Firearm Ownership**

The Founding Fathers, though idealists, were also fierce pragmatists and knew that freedom could not be maintained without law and order. In this spirit, I believe they would have used common sense as their guide to limit the number of firearms that civilians could own, perhaps to the tune of a single gun for every adult in the household, with children automatically becoming eligible when they reached a certain age, and with certain exceptions for hunting.

**Training and Testing**

Essential to putting firearms in the hands of ordinary citizens is their ability to use those weapons responsibly and in a manner that minimizes the chance of accidents. That would have been addressed by the Founding Fathers through a rigorous and community-based system to train and test all gun owners every six months to ensure competency. Those who did not meet the community's standards would have had their private guns confiscated until they could do so. The re-training and re-testing would have ensured that people's skills, eyesight, and mental ability remained fresh and conducive to the carriage of a deadly weapon. There would have been no such thing as an automatic renewal or exception.

**Strict Ammunition Control**

In this critical arena, I believe the Founding Fathers would have created a public-private system wherein private ammunition makers would only have been allowed to sell a fixed quantity of ammunition for any single weapon per a formula determined by the federal government to be necessary for citizens to protect their home or for hunting, but no more. At the end of every year, citizens would have been offered monetary compensation by the government for any unused ammunition, providing an incentive for people to report their actual gun usage and reducing the motivation to hoard ammunition.

nailingit — December 16, 2012 at 8:08 a.m. ( | suggest removal

**Severe Penalties for Gun Abuse**

The Founding Fathers were champions of freedom but were not weak on law enforcement. Faced with a debilitating threat to society, they would have enacted laws to ensure that citizens treated guns with respect and did not use them in a cavalier fashion. That would have included harsh penalties for unnecessary gun use in any situation, and even harsher penalties for casualties or injuries caused to others by guns. By invoking zero tolerance on gun violence, the Founding Fathers would have provided America with a safe and stable social order.

In our country today, we have a serious problem with gun violence, as well as with the proliferation of guns and ammunition. That is not in doubt or a subject for debate. The only thing that is debatable is the best way to address that problem. The right to bear arms should be preserved, but in the context of stricter gun laws that enable law enforcement to control and track weapons, and to provide adequate disincentive for the abuse of firearms. This alone may not solve all of our problems, but it will definitely make an appreciable difference, and that is enough. If even one senseless gun murder is prevented by these laws, it will have been more than worth it.

I bet the Founding Fathers would have agreed, and in fact taken the lead in this process.

nailingit — December 16, 2012 at 8:09 a.m. ( | suggest removal

*Looks like more divisive local politics in the future..who woulda thought? :) I might have named this article "The Teabaggers Last Stand", probably a good thing I didn't name it...*

From today's C

The Clark County Republican Party underwent a shift Thursday, when a group of newly-elected precinct committee officers replaced party leadership with anti-establishment candidates.

The change was orchestrated by the PCO Liberty Alliance, a grass-roots group of Tea Party advocates, libertarian Republicans, and values voters who primarily supported Ron Paul, Newt Gingrich or Rick Santorum during the Republican presidential primaries. Many within the alliance aggressively campaigned for Republican PCO seats in the Aug. 7 election -- and won.


"We want to rebuild the party and get back to a better balance of Democrats and Republicans" in county government, he said. "We've got to do a lot of organization and broadening of the party base."[link text][1]


nailingit — December 16, 2012 at 8:20 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Remember how Mitt Romney, successful businessman, was running for president because he knew how to whip troubled businesses and Olympics and such into shape, cut waste, instill fiscal responsibility? His campaign is about to get a bunch of complaints from news outlets that had reporters embedded on the campaign and are upset about being billed ridiculously inflated amounts for travel and food.

What happens is, campaigns set up travel and food for reporters covering them, and the reporters' news outlets are billed for the resulting expenses. That's standard. What's not standard are the amounts the Romney campaign is billing:

For example, on Oct. 11, each reporter was charged $812 for a meal and a rented "holding" space, where the press waited before moving to the next event. On Oct. 18, the bill for a similar set of expenses was $461. And on the night of the vice presidential debate, the campaign planned a "viewing party" for the reporters with Romney, complete with a large rented room with a patio, massage tables, fresh cut flowers, and lots of food and booze. One campaign aide told BuzzFeed that campaign officials' orders were to "go big"—a nice gesture, perhaps, but one that wasn't discussed with every media outlet.

The tab for the party: $745 per reporter

[link text][1]


hawkeye — December 16, 2012 at 9:21 a.m. ( | suggest removal

We seem to forget that the freedoms protected by our Constitution cover everyone, theoretically, that is.

Somehow, in our egocentricity, we leave out atheists (cause they are not God-fearing like us) and many others who march to a different drummer, but abide by the law.

That's why I was so impressed and surprised yesterday by the Florida city that allowed the Festivus pole placement next to the Nativity scene. Why not? Afterall, there is room for all at the inn. Or should be.

Nope. I am not an atheist, so please save the holier-than-thou scoldings to save my poor soul. But I sure as hell will protect and defend anyone's right to follow their own faith, as long as it does not break the law.

Peace. We need it.

manthou — December 16, 2012 at 11:48 a.m. ( | suggest removal

nailingit: I will happily engage in the gun control debate with you in a few days. In the meantime, I am taking Morgan Freeman's good advice (thank you, Elisi, for posting it) and swearing off the news for awhile.

manthou — December 16, 2012 at 11:51 a.m. ( | suggest removal

manthou- Thanks for the angle on the Festivus pole. I have a new appreciation.

Personally I don't consider myself an atheist as well. My contention has always been the infusion of religion into politics and deriving policy based on such.

It becomes impossible to have a reasonable discussion about gun control with a small but loud/boisterous segment who believe ""We don't have a crime problem, a gun problem or even a violence problem. What we have is a sin problem,".

When a group refuses to understand or recognize a problem exists, it makes discussion tough. I can imagine how some lawmakers must feel.

The same to a degree with climate change, choice, contraception etc.

If person believes they are correct in following a God who rejects other faiths and demands the same of it's followers, history dictates we'll always have problems.

nailingit — December 16, 2012 at 12:09 p.m. ( | suggest removal

*debate with you in a few days.*

Appreciated...a time and a season...

*Peace. We need it.*


nailingit — December 16, 2012 at 12:35 p.m. ( | suggest removal

I have a question, for anybody....

If religion was to be taught in the public schools, what religion would it be? And how many fights would that start?

hawkeye — December 16, 2012 at 12:40 p.m. ( | suggest removal

*I don't know why you feel a need to pick apart everything I say and distort it.*

No distortion. Just my observations.



*Yes, I would like to have a reasonable conversation about gun control with a few sensible folk once emotions have subsided, and recent victims are laid to rest. But even that is distorted and criticized.*

Good for you. So would I. Seems to me there's plenty of sensible folk on this forum in which a hearty and healthy discussion could be and has already been shared. It's difficult to share in a healthy discussion when miles upon miles of dialogue written in some article was copied and pasted from links provided with no comment written by the person hiding behind the avatar.

*You know no end when it comes to harassing those who don't share your ever changing and many times non-sensical views.*

Harassing? Nonsensical? Far from it. More like trying to understand where the person comes from, so I ask the questions and in clear description of explanation - just insults. Nonsensical views...only nonsensical if the person doesn't understand the questions asked or they don't agree with the way the discussion is moving.




No. A OPINION by one person may not always be the same as another. Certainly not a distortion.

*Harassing those who don't share (blah, blah, blah)...*

No. Just responding to those who have responded to me.

*I've asked you before. Please leave me out of your dialogue. Please doesn't seem to help.*

As long as you leave goldenoldie out of yours.

*How about showing just a little bit of class.*

Interesting concept posted by one who is obviously lacking.

My advice....**Ignore User!**

goldenoldie — December 16, 2012 at 1:14 p.m. ( | suggest removal

***And with tears in his eyes***

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - U.S. House of Representatives Speaker John Boehner's offer to accept a tax rate increase for the wealthiest Americans knocks down a key Republican road block to a deal resolving the year-end "fiscal cliff."

hawkeye — December 16, 2012 at 2:11 p.m. ( | suggest removal

WASHINGTON (AP) — Signaling new movement in “fiscal cliff” talks, House Speaker John Boehner has proposed raising the top rate for earners making more than $1 million, a person familiar with the negotiations said. President Barack Obama, who wants higher top rates for households earning more than $250,000, has not accepted the offer, this person said.

The proposal, however, indicated progress in talks that had appeared stalled. The person would only discuss the plan on the condition of anonymity because of the sensitivity of the negotiations.

[link text][1]


ELISI — December 16, 2012 at 2:44 p.m. ( | suggest removal

hawkeye @ 2:11- I hope the House budgeted enough for tissue to cover this.

I guess there's always a mop...

nailingit — December 16, 2012 at 2:56 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Well all you fellow local your trash can lids secure??? Sounds like a doozy of a storm coming in tonight! Let's hope it doesn't do too much damage to the region!!! Weird...the winds are supposed to be coming from the west. Usually in any wind event, they come from the south/southwest. And this's packin' quite a punch for the snowpack as well as blizzard warnings over the Blue Mountains of Oregon. Maybe us flatlanders will see some wet, sloppy snowflakes tomorrow or Tuesday!!!

goldenoldie — December 16, 2012 at 3:07 p.m. ( | suggest removal

GO, no snow or ice allowed until I don't have to get out of driveway in morning to go to work. I have been stuck a few times and it stinks. Now for Xmas, a bit of

How high are winds supposed to be?

luvithere — December 16, 2012 at 3:15 p.m. ( | suggest removal

hawkeye @ 12:40- *If religion was to be taught in the public schools, what religion would it be?*

In the spirit of Progressivism, I suggest KWATEE. A native American God of change, transformation and improvement. And maybe the best thing about it would be, KAWATEE wouldn't be pressured into producing a birth certificate.

nailingit — December 16, 2012 at 3:18 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Luvithere, here's the latest from the National Weather Service, courtesy






Also...a blizzard warning has been issued starting at 6:00 pm for the Northern Oregon and South Washington Cascades as well.

goldenoldie — December 16, 2012 at 3:38 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Think I'll wait until I leave for work in the morning to put the trash out. Thanks for the warning.

roger — December 16, 2012 at 3:53 p.m. ( | suggest removal

A windstorm that could be the most powerful in at least six years will hit northwest Oregon and the Portland metro area Sunday night, according to FOX 12 meteorologists.
This from news site. Brrr, Goldie, I am staying in.

luvithere — December 16, 2012 at 4:08 p.m. ( | suggest removal

I got the generator all gassed up and ready to go, chainsaw with a new chain and lots of flashlights, spare batteries and firewood.

hawkeye — December 16, 2012 at 5:16 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Lots of rain falling here, and we are already very saturated. We have little ponds all over the property, and a forest with tall trees. Hawk, you might get company - you seem the best prepared. Let's invite Drift also. :) :)

luvithere — December 16, 2012 at 6:27 p.m. ( | suggest removal

you got it, luv. The more the merrier.

hawkeye — December 16, 2012 at 7:23 p.m. ( | suggest removal


I was in the tiny cab and the driver was honking the horn. I found it interesting he could carry on a conversation and beat the center of the steering wheel at the same time. The man was a professional.

"Butcher by trade," he told me. Beep... beep. "I make much more money with the cab though. I'm putting my daughter through medical school." Beep. "I need to make as much as I can." Beep.

I nodded. "Why do you keep hitting the horn?"

He looked at me as though I was from another planet, "I'm driving!" and shrugged.

We were in Alexandria. That one over there in Egypt.

"I'm hoping she'll meet a nice Moslem boy over there in your United States. You do have Moslems, yes?"

"Moslem... hmm, yeah, I'm pretty sure. We have all kinds of religions."

"What religion are you?" Beep, he asked.

"I'm atheist," I answered. I was trying to remember from the brief if it was okay to say that. I remembered the whole bottom of the foot thing, but atheist...?

Beep, "Atheist? I don't understand, what is 'atheist?'" Beep.

"I don't believe in God. I don't believe in any god."

"No God?"

I looked over and turned my head side to side.

We drove a few minutes without any beeps. I wondered if I'd made a huge mistake. Did I miss this part in the liberty brief? It was an uncomfortable silence.


"Oh!, he exclamed, "You're crazy!" Beep, beep, beep.
That sentence doesn't give the moment any justice. The man was happy he had come to grips with my statement. I was crazy. That was okay - being crazy. He had a crazy man in his cab, and he was just fine with that. He smiled at me, "Crazy, heh." Beep, beep.

(This is a true story. I didn't even (really) embellish)
(I might do a post on religion in schools tomorrow. If I remember. I gotta get my head around the difference between 'teach' and 'expose' first. And, now, it's getting close to my bed/book reading time. 'Night 'Dwellers'.)

Drift — December 16, 2012 at 8:16 p.m. ( | suggest removal

We're good here at the shack. I've a stove, wood, candles, stuff. I *do* thank you for the invite, however.

I'll take this opportunity to make a "gentleman's bet." I've a 6 x 6 canopy over the picnic table out back. The legs haven't been pegged.

Does it stay or does it go? ;^)

Drift — December 16, 2012 at 8:26 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Oh, wait a minute... I missed luvit's joke, eh? Yes, rack time for me.

Drift — December 16, 2012 at 8:29 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Drift — December 16, 2012 at 8:26 p.m.

It will find the "cyclone" fence!

hawkeye — December 16, 2012 at 9:20 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Loveithere: I don't know if I'd invite Drift, he's 'testy' sometimes and I even read somewhere that he may be a little crazy, good guy though..;)

david98686 — December 17, 2012 at 5:32 a.m. ( | suggest removal

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