Open forum, July 16 - 22



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I just joined this forum and have been reading posts that were sent in I have been living here in WA for abt 4 yrs and prior to that 44+ years in Maui and Big Island. Will tell you upfront that I am NOT an Obama fan and not happy with what he has done to our country..OH, I am a gr grannie with 4 children, 9 grands and 5 gr grands..My husband is Native Hawaiian and I am of Irish/Cherokee descent. Hope there are fellow Republicans on here!!!

tsuli — July 15, 2012 at 11:08 a.m. ( | suggest removal


Yes, there are a few Republicans here. Hopefully you'll be an articulate voice in explaining why you are "..NOT an Obama fan and not happy with what he has done to our country" as they sorely need an effective voice.

Of course, you could tell us what you are for and what might be the best methods to work toward those goals.

mr_basil_seal — July 16, 2012 at 6:07 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Sen. Patty Murray (D-WA) Addresses Brookings Panel on 'Fiscal Cliff'

Monday, July 16, 2012

The Brookings Institution hosts discussion on the upcoming "fiscal cliff" that will result from congressional imposed sequestration and the expiration of tax cuts in January 2013.

Washington Senator Patty Murray (D), a member of the Senate Budget Committee and a former chair of the Joint Select Committee on Deficit Reduction, will begin the event by outlining what she sees as a path to avoiding the cliff through bipartisan cooperation.

A panel discussion with Brookings experts will then seek to address the likelihood of a "grand bargain" between the parties that could lead to deficit reduction and economic growth.

mr_basil_seal — July 16, 2012 at 6:30 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Welcome, tsuli! It is good to see new participants! Diversity of opinion makes life interesting. For the most part, people are respectful of each other here.

manthou — July 16, 2012 at 6:48 a.m. ( | suggest removal

**Republican Congressman: States Can Ban Birth Control, But Not Foie Gras**
By Zack Beauchamp on Jul 14, 2012 at 4:14 pm

Steve King.
Californians have recently voted to enact laws banning the sale and production of both eggs from cruelly housed hens and foie gras, a delicacy created by force-feeding ducks. While this may seem within the legal bounds of a state’s ability to regulate local commerce, one Congressman is up in arms about it: Steve King (R, IA). King, despite being one of the most outspoken proponents of states’ rights in Congress, is so convinced that California’s laws violate the Commerce Clause that he pushed through legislation overturning the animal rights acts and similar statutes in other states:
Rep. Steve King, an Iowa Republican who represents the country’s leading egg-producing state, said he introduced the amendment because the California law and others like it “scrambles and creates a patchwork quilt of state regulations.”
“If California wants to regulate eggs that come into the state, fine,” King said. “But don’t be telling the states that are producing a product that’s already approved by the USDA or the FDA how to produce that product.”
He said that the California requirement violates the commerce clause of the Constitution, which gives the federal government jurisdiction over interstate commerce issues.
King believes the entire Affordable Care Act – not simply the mandate, but the whole law – is an unconstitutional use of federal power under the Commerce Clause. This means that, according to King, any federal regulation of the insurance industry is unconstitutional. King also thinks states can ban contraception. These radical beliefs aren’t a surprise: King adheres to an extreme interpretation of the Tenth Amendment which aims to gut federal power.

mr_basil_seal — July 16, 2012 at 6:49 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Pass the DISCLOSE Act

Corporations and special interests are trying to buy our elections with secret donations.

We need the DISCLOSE Act to force them to reveal their political spending -- and cut down on the unlimited special-interest influence. Americans deserve to know the funders behind the TV ads flooding our airwaves.

The Senate will be voting on the DISCLOSE Act as early as this Monday, July 16. Take the lead and sign our petition telling the Senate to pass the DISCLOSE Act.

mr_basil_seal — July 16, 2012 at 6:58 a.m. ( | suggest removal

The City Council intends to extend the current cannabis collective garden moratorium this evening (after public comments, of course). Unfortunately, I won't be in attendance.

I don't know I would go were I able to anyway. Unless it was to give notice of an impending injunction.

If you like watching comedies of error, the meeting can be viewed on CVTV channel 23. I'll catch it tomorrow so I can skip through their other business.

Hey tsuli, what's your opinion on the medicinal use of cannabis? How about recreational use?

Drift — July 16, 2012 at 7:58 a.m. ( | suggest removal

tsuli: I just remembered: We had a long-time Forum member named elisi. She mentioned that her avatar name was "grandmother" in Cherokee.

Is yours of Cherokee orign, too?

manthou — July 16, 2012 at 8:02 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Hey, Drift: You are adept with a pen and prose. Have you written the city council members? Even if you cannot attend, let them know how you feel. :)

manthou — July 16, 2012 at 8:04 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Sure have, manthou. Copies of various corrospondences can be read on my blog in the "letters" category. I've dropped the county a line, too.

I've attempted to explain they are twice mistaken. The first is exactly what they believe a collective garden to be. The second is their belief they've regulatory authority.

I've laid it all out quite plainly. No one is listening. Not to me, anyaway.

Drift — July 16, 2012 at 8:27 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Drift — July 16, 2012 at 8:27 a.m.

Do you know if any other WA counties are doing anything similar?

mr_basil_seal — July 16, 2012 at 8:33 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Many municipalities, mr_basil_seal.

Kent recently passed an ordinance outright banning gardens. The city has been served with an injunction (or similar).

Part of where these folks (cities, counties) are getting confused is thinking "collective" in Washington means the same thing as "collective" in California, and that simply isn't true.

If one would read the law ( it becomes quite apparent.

Drift — July 16, 2012 at 8:50 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Should have done more looking first.,,,,

mr_basil_seal — July 16, 2012 at 9:05 a.m. ( | suggest removal

I've been denied legal assistance in filing a preliminary injunction by the CDC, ACLU and Legal Voice. I would do it solo, but I haven't been successful finding a step-by-step tutorial.

Oh, and BTW, the confusion of what constitutes a collective falls on both sides of the fence. There are entrepreneurs out there who've called the city asking how to get a business license for a collective. No. No. No. Dang it, no!

Drift — July 16, 2012 at 9:18 a.m. ( | suggest removal

CNN is reporting Naval fire on a small boat in the Persian Gulf 50 cal. style. At least one dead. Breaking News so info is fluid.

Welcome tsuli! No shortage of Anti Obama republicans here. You should feel at home.

nailingit — July 16, 2012 at 9:23 a.m. ( | suggest removal

As Mitt has said, "what's sauce for the goose is now sauce for the gander".

**Romney called for tax transparency in past campaigns**

But Romney has also called for greater tax transparency in the past when it served his political purposes.

In the 2002 race, Romney sought to turn Enron into a campaign issue when it was revealed that O'Brien's husband, Emmett Hayes, had lobbying ties to the scandalized energy and commodities firm.

Hayes had filed his taxes separately from O'Brien – and Fehrnstrom, then Romney's deputy campaign manager, demanded that O'Brien come clean about her husband's financial ties to Enron.

"Her hands aren't clean," Fehrnstrom said, according to the Herald. "She can't claim to be disclosing anything until she discloses the returns of her husband, the Enron lobbyist. Under Shannon O'Brien, the state Pension Board lost millions by buying Enron stock when it was collapsing - what is she hiding?"

Fehrnstrom made the demand even as Romney was refusing to release his own returns.

That drew accusations of hypocrisy from editorial boards, but Fehrnstrom defended the campaign's posture, saying that O'Brien was trying to hide important information from voters by declining to reveal her husband's returns, while Romney was simply acting on principle.

The tax return issue also made an appearance in Romney's first political campaign, his 1994 Senate run against Ted Kennedy.

In that race, Romney assumed the role of transparency advocate.

nailingit — July 16, 2012 at 10:02 a.m. ( | suggest removal

**Ron Paul Makes Campaign Stop In Whimsical Jalopy**

Ron Paul was out on the campaign trail courting voters in his huffing, puffing, whimsical steam-powered vehicle.,28724/

nailingit — July 16, 2012 at 11:23 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Obama currently doing a Town Hall in Ohio...MSNBC. Good to see!!

nailingit — July 16, 2012 at 11:36 a.m. ( | suggest removal

They've got a lot of company in the federal government...

$833K out of $3.4B is less than .0003% for a little perspective.

The IRS' 2010 delinquent tax revelations come as part of a required annual agency report on federal employees' tax compliance. Turns out, an awful lot of folks being paid by taxpayers are not paying their own income taxes.

The report finds that thousands of federal employees owe the country more than $3.4 billion in back taxes. That's up 3% in the past year.

That scale of delinquency could annoy voters, hard-pressed by their own costs, fears and stubbornly high unemployment despite Joe Biden's many promises.

The tax offenders include employees of the U.S. Senate who help write the laws imposed on everyone else. They owe $2.1 million. Workers in the House of Representatives owe $8.5 million, Department of Education employees owe $4.3 million and over at Homeland Security, 4,697 workers owe about $37 million. Active duty military members owe more than $100 million.

The Treasury Department, where Obama nominee Tim Geithner had to pay up $42,000 in his own back taxes before being confirmed as secretary, has 1,181 other employees with delinquent taxes totaling $9.3 million.

As usual, the Postal Service, with more than 600,000 workers, has the most offenders (25,640), who also owe the most -- almost $270 million. Veterans Affairs has 11,659 workers owing the IRS $151 million while the Energy Department that was so quick to dish out more than $500 million to the Solyndra folks has 322 employees owing $5 million.

The country's chief law enforcement agency, the Department of Justice, has 2,069 employees who are nearly $17 million behind in taxes. Like Operation Fast and Furious, Attorney General Eric Holder has apparently missed them too.

mrd — July 16, 2012 at 12:42 p.m. ( | suggest removal

for a little more perspective.....

In 2009, after their 2008 tax forms were filed, federal employees owed $3.3B. People come and go, but the numbers don't seems to change much.;_id=86caa3a0-0c97-47da-b95a-e9b53a1a3d80

mrd — July 16, 2012 at 12:47 p.m. ( | suggest removal

crazytrain @ 11:59: When I was visiting NYC and an Occupy camp there, the NYC police were throwing balls of peanut butter into the area for the sole purpose of attracting rodents.

Trying to make the place not so much fun to inhabit, ya' know-that-I-mean?

manthou — July 16, 2012 at 1:01 p.m. ( | suggest removal

I read the C's article about waistlines growing in our community. I was reminded of Michele Obama's dedication and hard work concerning said subject.

We've never had a classier First Lady than Michele, for that matter a classier First Family in the White House.

Let's give these guys another four. They deserve it!

nailingit — July 16, 2012 at 1:51 p.m. ( | suggest removal

*One must ask, why is it still going on???*

crazytrain — July 16, 2012 at 1:39 p.m.

The real question is 'How long have you been complaining?'

"Since March 1962, Congress has enacted 76 separate
measures that have altered the limit on federal debt."

Congressional Research Service
The Debt Limit: History and Recent Increases
D. Andrew Austin

mr_basil_seal — July 16, 2012 at 2:04 p.m. ( | suggest removal

**Dear Mr. Romney, I Want More Free Stuff From the Government**
Jon Wiener on July 14, 2012

Dear Mr. Romney, I was hoping you could tell me how to get more free stuff from the government, and I see that you took up that question after your speech to the NAACP last week. You were speaking to a group of white people in Hamilton, Montana, and you told them that, at the NAACP, you had said that you were “going to get rid of Obamacare.” You said that they “weren’t happy” about that. And you said that if people want “more free stuff” from “the government,” they should “go vote for the other guy.”

Well, I want more free stuff from the government, but, actually, if you want free stuff from Obama, you’d be better off as a banker than as a black person.

Maybe you heard that Obama’s TARP and stimulus programs already gave $4.5 trillion in bailout money to the big banks and investment houses on Wall Street. There’s a lot more if you count loan guarantees and emergency lending from the Federal Reserve.

If I had gotten any of that free stuff, like your friends on Wall Street did, I could have done what they did—use those public funds to pay myself really well.

Some of your friends are praising you for your “straight talk” to the NAACP, for having the courage of your convictions and letting the chips fall where they may. But actually you didn’t tell the black people they should vote for the other guy because they want free stuff. Instead, you told a white audience afterwards that’s what black people should do.

mr_basil_seal — July 16, 2012 at 2:13 p.m. ( | suggest removal

*The real question is 'How long have you been complaining?'*

mr_basil_seal — July 16, 2012 at 2:04 p.m.

Time for a reprint!


Courtesy of the awesome Kay in Maine at White Noise Insanity

Now You’re Mad?!

After The 8 Years Of The Bush/Cheney Disaster, Now You Get Mad?

You didn’t get mad when the Supreme Court stopped a legal recount and appointed a President.

You didn’t get mad when Cheney allowed Energy company officials to dictate Energy policy and push us to invade Iraq.

You didn’t get mad when a covert CIA operative got outed.

You didn’t get mad when the Patriot Act got passed.

You didn’t get mad when we illegally invaded a country that posed no threat to us.

You didn’t get mad when we spent over 800 billion (and counting) on said illegal war.

You didn’t get mad when Bush borrowed more money from foreign sources than the previous 42 Presidents combined.

You didn’t get mad when over 10 billion dollars in cash just disappeared in Iraq.

You didn’t get mad when you found out we were torturing people.

You didn’t get mad when Bush embraced trade and outsourcing policies that shipped 6 million American jobs out of the country.

You didn’t get mad when the government was illegally wiretapping Americans.

You didn’t get mad when Bush said he wasn’t concerned about Bin Laden, just a few months after 911.

You didn’t get mad when Bush rang up 10 trillion dollars in combined budget and current account deficits.

You didn’t get mad when you saw the horrible conditions at Walter Reed.

You didn’t get mad when we let a major US city, New Orleans, drown.

You didn’t get mad when we gave people who had more money than they could spend, the filthy rich, over a trillion dollars in tax breaks.

You didn’t get mad with the worst 8 years of job creations in several decades.

You didn’t get mad when over 200,000 US Citizens died over an 8-year period because they had no health insurance.

You didn’t get mad when lack of oversight and regulations from the Bush Administration caused US Citizens to lose 12 trillion dollars in investments, retirement, and home values.

You finally got mad when a black man was elected President and decided that people in America deserved the right to see a doctor if they are sick. Yes, illegal wars, lies, corruption, torture, job losses by the millions, stealing your tax dollars to make the rich richer, and the worst economic disaster since 1929 are all okay with you, but helping fellow Americans who are sick…oh hell no.

nailingit — July 16, 2012 at 2:17 p.m. ( | suggest removal

In my ongoing effort to think more locally...

I have mixed feelings with these volunteer programs our city/county law enforcement take advantage of. Most of them bad. Some have graduated from listening to their police scanners into the night to patrolling the streets! I really don't feel any safer because of this.

If our local po po's lack the funds to cover these areas, while feeling comfortable placing citizens in their place than it's a sorry state of affairs. Just a matter of time until a Zimmerman type of incident occurs.

Perhaps the next time we see a cop chomping doughnuts/food at a local eatery we should remind them, in many cases, seniors are attempting to do their job.

And the latest from the Zimmerman front...........

nailingit — July 16, 2012 at 2:41 p.m. ( | suggest removal

crazytrain — July 16, 2012 at 5:03 p.m.

From your source "many of which "

And that was the closest the article comes to actually delivering any facts.

We are at a point in the environmental effects of Anthropogenic Climate Change that we should have been putting that kind of money into research 20 years ago. You could also look at the political and economic issues and make the same statement.

Obama: “Some Technologies Don’t Pan Out; Some Companies Fail. But I Will Not Walk Away From The Promise Of Clean Energy.” President Barack Obama, The State Of The Union 2012

mr_basil_seal — July 16, 2012 at 5:14 p.m. ( | suggest removal

crazytrain- In another life? How does this post fit into your narrative?


When was the Seaside riots?
I live during my teens in Boise, in '70 got married and moved to Ca for 2 yrs, then moved to this area in June 72

December 9, 2010 at 12:47 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal | Ignore User )

nailingit — July 16, 2012 at 7:23 p.m. ( | suggest removal

hawk- I'm displaying a post from crazytrain to you on December 9, 2010 at 12:47 p.m.

I'll give .. context.

Well, since I was born in 89' and didn't have any interest in politics or government until I was 16-17..

crazytrain — July 16, 2012 at 3:49 p.m.

When was the Seaside riots? I live during my teens in Boise, in '70 got married and moved to Ca for 2 yrs, then moved to this area in June 72

crazytrain @ December 9, 2010 at 12:47 p.m.

crazy's narrative is that .. he is 23-24 years old.

crazy's narrative is also of one who was married in 1970.

Perhaps a belief in a pre-existence doctrine of some sort. :)

nailingit — July 16, 2012 at 8:39 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Meanwhile back at the ranch...

Does anyone who posts here agree with Senate Republicans on this? If so..why? We need more transparency in government, not less. Of course the Republicans used to think this way also....:(( I'm disappointed with a few so-called centrist Republicans. They all towed party line.

**DISCLOSE Campaign Spending Act Blocked By Senate Republicans**

WASHINGTON -- Senate Republicans blocked a bill Monday evening to increase transparency in campaign spending by independent groups.

In a 51-44 vote, the DISCLOSE Act failed to obtain the 60 votes needed to clear a Republican filibuster. The bill would have required disclosure of anyone who donates to independent groups that spent more than $10,000 on campaign ads -- or their functional equivalent -- and other election spending.

The bill was not expected to beat back the Republican filibuster, which was led by Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell (R-Ky.). McConnell, called the "Darth Vader of campaign finance reform" in the past, recently made news by giving a series of speeches declaring that campaign finance disclosure amounted to nothing short of harassment and a suppression of speech. In one op-ed for USA Today McConnell called the DISCLOSE Act "un-American" and "an attempt to identify and punish political enemies, or at the very least, intimidate others from participating in the process."

Sen. Sheldon Whitehouse (D-R.I.) was the primary sponsor of the legislation and will lead a series of floor speeches from Senate Democrats into the early hours of Tuesday to protest the Republicans' filibuster.

The Republican filibuster came after decades of statements by various Republicans that, while they opposed restrictions on campaign finance, they vehemently supported full disclosure.

"We need to have real disclosure," McConnell said as recently as 2010 in a debate over the first iteration of the DISCLOSE Act. The 2010 version of the bill, which included provisions that went beyond simple disclosure, also was blocked by a Republican filibuster in a 59-41 vote.

Republicans once considered staunch supporters of campaign finance disclosure, including Sen. John McCain (R-Ariz.) one of the two primary co-authors of the 2002 campaign finance reform bill, voted to block it. Other opponents Monday who in the past supported campaign finance disclosure or bemoaned the influence of groups that don't disclose, included Sens. Olympia Snowe (R-Maine), Susan Collins (R-Maine), Richard Lugar (R-Ind.), and Scott Brown (R-Mass.).

Campaign finance reform groups voiced deep displeasure with Senate Republicans for contradicting previous statements of support for transparency in elections.

nailingit — July 16, 2012 at 9:55 p.m. ( | suggest removal

:)))))))) Thanks for your answer......why it's just........crazy!

nailingit — July 16, 2012 at 10:49 p.m. ( | suggest removal

All you have to do is back pedal your posts "crazy". A few of us have known for awhile and more than willing to let it go. It was the whole "According to my parents" thing. Absurdities get old, sometimes more than others.

Carry on. :)

nailingit — July 16, 2012 at 10:59 p.m. ( | suggest removal

I don't want to relive the whole "sock puppet" ordeal, when you and a few others came onto the scene to deride a poster called fiscaltiger. Not worth it and it's not beneficial.

For the most part we are all anonymous. But it would be nice if honesty prevailed in the basement. And I think it does for the most part. When it's all said and done what does it matter anyway? At least you seem to have toned down your insults to some degree, kinda. And that's a positive thing.

Like I said, carry on.

nailingit — July 16, 2012 at 11:16 p.m. ( | suggest removal

**Romney's Olympics uniforms made in Burma**

In another type of outsourcing, this on the 2002 Salt Lake City Olympics uniforms made in Burma, from HuffPo:

According to reports in 2002, the decision to outsource the torchbearer uniforms to Burma caused an uproar among human rights advocates and trade groups. It prompted the head of the International Confederation of Free Trade Unions (ICFTU) to write a letter to the International Olympic Committee (IOC), stating that "No responsible organization or body should make use of products originating in Burma."

The American Anti-Slavery Group (AASG) and the Free Burma Coalition (FBC) launched a campaign to protest the uniforms and called on the IOC to apologize and “promise to never support -- indirectly or directly -- the Burmese regime."

Torchbearers, too, were shocked to see the “Made in Burma (Myanmar)” label on their tracksuits. "When I looked at the label for the uniform, I went nuts,” said 2002 torchbearer Susan Bonfield in an interview with the Guardian. “When you are sending work representing the U.S. to a military dictatorship, I have an issue with that."

Then this:
Perhaps most embarrassing, after receiving emailed protests from more than 1,000 activists, the media relations department at the Salt Lake Organizing Committee confused Burma and Myanmar as two separate countries.

"The torch relay clothes were NOT made in Burma. They were manufactured in Myanmar," the organizing committee responded. "In fact they were made in the exact same factory that produces clothes for GAP, North Face and other major clothing labels."
This could explain part of Romney's silence on a Capitol Hill controversy over the current manufacturer of Olympics uniforms — and serves as another reminder that his trip to London next week is no longer an easy hit. Instead, it will have the Bain-outsourcing-when-did-Romney-leave controversy as the backdrop.

nailingit — July 16, 2012 at 11:51 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Good for you crazy! Good luck with your studies.

nailingit — July 17, 2012 at 12:48 a.m. ( | suggest removal

crazytrain — July 16, 2012 at 5:53 p.m.

Your article made sweeping statements and didn't bring any data forward to support them. It didn't give, for a simple example, the number of companies that have been successful under the loan guarantee plan.

And, it isn't just a jobs and economy issue. Perhaps you'll put that Gen Physics class to good use and learn what is going on in our atmosphere. We are a day late and a dollar short.

Except it is decades and billions. And much of the billions is because of the decades.

mr_basil_seal — July 17, 2012 at 6 a.m. ( | suggest removal

According to my parents, the government has promised research for better energy for this country long before Carter.

crazytrain — July 16, 2012 at 5:53 p.m.

Probably should do some basic factchecking then. Maybe check your sources.

mr_basil_seal — July 17, 2012 at 6:03 a.m. ( | suggest removal

crazytrain — July 16, 2012 at 10:36 p.m.

Can't have the same username with different email addresses ....

mr_basil_seal — July 17, 2012 at 6:08 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Speaking of going to school....

**Hot Enough for You? Time to Teach Against Fossil Fuels**
by Bill Bigelow

Here in the Pacific Northwest, we’ve been spared most of the brutal weather experienced in the rest of the country. Throughout the United States, in the month of June alone, 3,200 daytime high temperature records were broken or tied. In Washington, D.C., an 11-day stretch of temperatures above 95 degrees is the longest since records have been kept. The weird and deadly mid-Atlantic storm—the “land hurricane”—took the lives of 23 people and left 4 million without electricity. Colorado has suffered through the worst forest fires in the state’s history. And the fire still burning in southeastern Oregon is the biggest one the state has seen in 150 years.
Illustration: Erik Ruin

As climate scientists will tell you, there is no way to link any single weather event to global warming. But as Jeff Masters, director of meteorology at the Weather Underground website, said recently on Democracy Now!, “What we’re seeing now is the future. We’re going to be seeing a lot more weather like this, a lot more impacts like we’re seeing from this series of heat waves, fires, and storms. . . . This is just the beginning.”

And yet, the fossil fuel industry continues to lead the climate change denial parade. On June 27, a day when almost 200 high temperature records were broken, Rex W. Tillerson, CEO of Exxon Mobil, gave a speech to the Council on Foreign Relations, pooh-poohing climate change, saying that the problem was activist organizations that “manufacture fear.” Tillerson said that the problem was an “illiterate public,” which needed to be taught that all environmental risks were “entirely manageable.”

And conservative pundits proudly wave the same flat-earth flag. Arguing with E. J. Dionne on ABC’s This Week, George Will said, “You asked us—how do we explain the heat? One word: summer. . . . We’re having some hot weather. Get over it.”

In our editorial, “Our Climate Crisis Is an Education Crisis,” in the spring 2011 issue of Rethinking Schools, we wrote that the climate crisis is “arguably the most significant threat to life on earth,” and urged educators to respond with the urgency that the crisis deserves. The events of this summer have added an exclamation point to our editorial.

mr_basil_seal — July 17, 2012 at 6:33 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Okay guys...I know I'm stepping outside the parameters of my quote that I would only be here to discuss climate change and severe weather...but enough is enough!!! I'm going to say this once and you won't hear another word from me about it.

Mr_Basil and Nailingit, I value what both of you have to say WHEN you stay on task, but I honestly see a trend here which is ruining the forum and that is the need of the both of you to try to discredit anybody who doesn't agree with your strict viewpoints. For heaven's sake...THIS IS AN OPINIONATED forum, NOT the international political and sciences conference with taxpayer dollars funneled to prove your point. We are the people of the community just trying to grasp onto what we are reading, hearing and seeing. Most of the time, what we render as fact...isn't a fact at all but after hearing or reading or seeing it a dozen times or more, it's truly difficult to discern just what is fact and what is fallacy.

Instead of swimming around in a cesspool of argument towards who is who and who is posting on who's email or who can say the nastier insult...a childish activity at best...why don't you focus on the actual subjects mentioned rather than personal attacks???

Basil...of ALL people, I hold you at the highest regard for countering somebody's argument with a link (or two or three) and a well-educated discussion which indicates a discrepancy of fact as some know it. I've learned a lot from what you have shared in the past. Since when have you decided it's better to argue with immature personal attacks??? What has happened to you? Are you truly the same person as the original Basil Seal on the forum or...? Well, I won't go there. I just wish you'd return to the original intellectual Basil you once were. I admit, I used to play the same game...but I've learned from my mistakes. I'm just offering some "motherly" advice, here. Can we puhleeeeease stay focused???

So much more could be accomplished with minds coming together in debate based on data collection, actual experiences and understanding human behavior and the thought processes rather than going for a blow below the belt. Wouldn't it be wonderful if this could be accomplished on the forum??? Remember's okay to disagree. Condemnation of others because they refuse to accept what you base as fact and going for the kill rather than reading the text of the discussion in the person's viewpoint...

...gets Everybody nowhere.

goldenoldie — July 17, 2012 at 6:56 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Bankers being, well, bankers.

Barclays rigging interest rates, fined $453M.

HSBC laundering billions of drug and terrorist money

Wachovia (now Wells Fargo) fined $160M for laundering $378B (yea, that's what the article said) drug money

We all know about JP Morgan's blunder, except the real amount.

mrd — July 17, 2012 at 7:32 a.m. ( | suggest removal

According to the Daily Iowegian Newspaper (July 16th), crop loss to the farmers will reach into millions of dollars. The soil moisture is declining...again...with only 8% of Iowa topsoil retaining enough moisture for adequate...yes ADEQUATE to sustain crops. The soil moisture in the subsoil is only at 11%.

Over the past two decades, Iowa has produced the most corn crop (as well as soybeans) for the US (courtesy of In 2011, Iowa farmers produced almost 2.3 billion bushes of corn (about 56 lbs of shelled corn per bushel)...mostly field corn, not the sweet corn we eat at the market. Their sweet corn usually stays in Iowa at the local markets. According to the website, most of Iowa's corn goes towards animal feed but is also used for starches, oil, sweeteners, and ethanol.

According to, in 2007, Iowa ranked second in the US for red meat production as well. 90% of Iowa land is used for agriculture. Iowa also ranks second in ag exports too.

*Other facts, courtesy of -*

In 2007, Iowa dairy farmers produced 4.28 BILLION gallons of milk. There were 19.2 million hogs (almost 27% of the nation’s hogs), 4 million cattle, 260,000 sheep and 66.9 million chickens in Iowa. Iowa chickens laid 13.9 billion eggs in 2007.

In 2007, 6.6 billion pounds of red meat were produced in Iowa alone.

Approximately 200,000 sheep shorn(shaved) in 2006 produced 1.23 million pounds of wool valued at 295,000 thousand dollars. Iowa ranks ninth in wool production.

In 2007, Iowa’s cash receipts of 4.15 billion dollars from hog markets, more than the total of the next two largest states of North Carolina at 1.41 billion dollars and Minnesota at 1.07 billion.

In 2007, a little more than 4 million turkeys produced with nearly 274 million pounds of turkey at a value of 123 million dollars.


*One Example* of what losses we are potentially facing in Iowa due to the drought conditions they are continuing to suffer. Yes...what the farmers in just the state of Iowa are enduring IS affecting all of us...the price of feed, the price of meat, the price of any soy-based product, the price of any corn-based product, the price of food in general AND the price of clothing, fuel and just about everything else based on ag products from Iowa alone. And Iowa's farms are (at 90%) actively working on soil conservation which means almost all of Iowa's farmland is used by farmers who are concerned about protecting the soil, and are taking actions to provide that protection, drought and all.

goldenoldie — July 17, 2012 at 7:35 a.m. ( | suggest removal

nailingit: Bingo, brother! Jackpot! Three cherries. I am impressed. What a memory for detail. :)

Wonder what happened to sokpop? goldensminion? beams_my_way? noworries? Gone, but not forgotten. :)

manthou — July 17, 2012 at 7:44 a.m. ( | suggest removal

So who is going to have lunch with the POTUS in Portland on July 24? I almost scraped up the $500 minimum, but then watched the last episode of this season's VEEP. If you missed it, watch it On Demand. :)

manthou — July 17, 2012 at 7:50 a.m. ( | suggest removal

*And Iowa's farms are (at 90%) actively working on soil conservation which means almost all of Iowa's farmland is used by farmers who are concerned about protecting the soil, and are taking actions to provide that protection, drought and all.*

goldenoldie — July 17, 2012 at 7:35 a.m.

mr_basil_seal — July 17, 2012 at 7:56 a.m. ( | suggest removal

mr_basil_seal — July 17, 2012 at 7:56 a.m.

All the more reason why farmers are on board:

goldenoldie — July 17, 2012 at 8:10 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Since a lead story on the C's home page is on coal and since it is getting a lot of response:

**Digging for China**

Similar battles are brewing across the Pacific Northwest. The Bellingham port is one of six terminals that coal-mining companies want to build in Washington and Oregon to boost sales to the industrial powerhouses of Asia. In Longview, Washington, Arch Coal and the Australian coal company Ambre Energy want to turn a former aluminum-smelting plant into a port that could ship 44 million metric tons of coal annually. Ambre is also behind a plan to move coal by barge down the Columbia River from the Port of Morrow to Port Westward, where the fuel would be loaded onto ships. The terminal at Port Westward would be able to transport some 30 million metric tons of coal a year. Other ports are being considered for Coos Bay in Oregon and Grays Harbor in Washington.

If all six plants were built, the U.S. would be exporting as much as 145 metric tons of coal a year to Asia. American coal companies like Peabody and Arch have pinned their hopes for the future on exports to Asia for a simple reason: Their domestic market is drying up. The Environmental Protection Agency’s emissions regulations for new power plants, a wave of grassroots activism against proposed coal-fired facilities, and a glut of natural-gas supplies have slashed the amount of coal U.S. utilities use. From March 2011 to March 2012, coal’s share of U.S. electricity generation plummeted from 42 percent to 34 percent; just six years ago, coal was responsible for almost half of U.S. electricity. In June, Arch Coal announced it would lay off about 750 workers in Virginia, West Virginia, and Kentucky coalfields. West Virginia’s Alpha Resources also closed two of its mines in June. Kevin Parker, global head of asset management at Deutsche Bank, summed up the situation in an interview with The Washington Post last year: “Coal is a dead man walkin'.”

Yet the United States has one of the largest known reserves of coal—an estimated 235-year supply at current usage rates—and mining companies don’t want to leave the potential profits trapped underground. Sales abroad (currently Europe is the top recipient of U.S. coal, with Asia coming in a distant second) are on track to set an all-time record in 2012. Desperate for a lifeline, the zombie industry believes it can survive in the 21st century if it dramatically boosts exports, in part, by digging for China. “Coal will continue to be the cornerstone of the world’s energy supply,” says Beth Sutton, a vice president at Peabody Energy. “Coal has been the world’s fastest-growing fuel for the past decade, with coal use expanding 56 percent, speaking to the enormous appetite for energy from the world’s emerging economies. U.S. exports will build the balance of trade and create real economic stimulus through jobs and revenues.”

mr_basil_seal — July 17, 2012 at 8:11 a.m. ( | suggest removal

manthou — July 17, 2012 at 7:44 a.m.

It's amazing how easy such a task would be for an employee of the Columbian. Now how about moving on and sticking to the subjects worth discussing rather than the same old mud hashing.

goldenoldie — July 17, 2012 at 8:12 a.m. ( | suggest removal

goldenoldie — July 17, 2012 at 8:10 a.m.

That there is such a problem tends to point out that there isn't as much work 'on the ground' as the "And Iowa's farms are (at 90%) actively working on soil conservation which means almost all of Iowa's farmland is used by farmers who are concerned about protecting the soil, and are taking actions to provide that protection, drought and all." claim.

And, of course, that doesn't get to the org v. convent. issue of land use issues...

mr_basil_seal — July 17, 2012 at 8:18 a.m. ( | suggest removal


In addition to my comment at 8:10 am to you, I only hope it isn't too little, too late. When I was in South Australia, we saw these house-sized, above-ground rainwater retention tanks (Bailey Tanks look very similar) butted next to just about every "new construction" home for in-house use year round. I'm curious...if that practice in such a magnitude could be adversely affecting the moisture content of the topsoil of Australia as well.

goldenoldie — July 17, 2012 at 8:20 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Basil @ 8:18 am...

It's an educational process which has come a long way since the dust bowl days. Kind of a hit and miss project. What works one year, might not necessarily work the next. I wouldn't be surprised if they have floods again in the next year or so...which in that case can be just as damaging as flood waters remove top soil as well.

goldenoldie — July 17, 2012 at 8:22 a.m. ( | suggest removal

welcome back.

DeeLittle — July 17, 2012 at 9:12 a.m. ( | suggest removal

"The Clark County Board of Commissioners last week extended its moratorium on the **commercial gardens** until June 2013, but the ban could be lifted as soon as zoning rules and other conditions are in place."

And so The Columbian perpetuates the same misconception. Where would anyone get the impression 69.51A.085 ( speaks of a commercial enterprise?

Why the heck folks don't take the time to read the law and prefer to be led by the nose is beyond me.

Drift — July 17, 2012 at 9:25 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Thanks Dee (and Hawkeye). I've never truly been gone. Just found no need to post till the article on climate change and the drought we're experiencing across over half of the continental US. I see things have never changed on here, though...just a bit more vile.

And to think some call themselves mature adults.

goldenoldie — July 17, 2012 at 10:01 a.m. ( | suggest removal

oops...I meant to say *"Just found no need to post till the comments on climate change and the drought."*

Sorry about that.

goldenoldie — July 17, 2012 at 10:06 a.m. ( | suggest removal

manthou @ 7:44- :) I wasn't going to resurface the sock puppet issue as I know it's highly contentious with goldenoldie avatars, but the whole "according to my parents" was just too much! :) Even an impeachable source doesn't matter for those wanting to cover their derrière's.

goldenlodie- I mean it when I say it is good to see you post. You place considerable knowledge and objective opinion on the table in targeted area's.

*Most of the time, what we render as fact...isn't a fact at all but after hearing or reading or seeing it a dozen times or more, it's truly difficult to discern just what is fact and what is fallacy.*

Sooo. We walk through life with our life lens in need of cleaning? Some things are fact. Some are fiction. It is up to us to sort it out and form an opinion. But if said opinion is rooted in non factual "facts" in order to further a belief that is false, it's time we take a step back. i.e. The president was not born in the U.S., the world is flat, and so on.

Opinion is one thing, obfuscation to push an ideological agenda is another.

@ 6:56- *Since when have you decided it's better to argue with immature personal attacks???*

Assuming you are referring to this statement, as it's the only one that addressed said subject..*.Can't have the same username with different email addresses ....*

mr_basil_seal was just stating a fact. No immaturity, nothing personal, and certainly no attack.

*Are you truly the same person as the original Basil Seal on the forum or...? Well, I won't go there.*

Yet you did with your statement. The old "one finger pointing at you, three fingers pointing back" just doesn't cut it.

*It's amazing how easy such a task would be for an employee of the Columbian.*

I don't believe this is a vast editorialized Columbian conspiracy..., do you? Besides, you know better.

But anyway, it's good to see you post. We could do without the false allegations of "attacking". Before you went on your forum hiatus you were accusing others of attacking you based on gender. Nothing could have been further from the truth as you well know.

Again, good to see you post. let's keep it a little ...cleaner, shall we?

nailingit — July 17, 2012 at 10:06 a.m. ( | suggest removal

I will offer this opinion though, this whole Bain Capital thing could bring Mitt down to the point of a new candidate surfacing for the GOP! Exciting stuff!

I guess one could call it Bainer!

nailingit — July 17, 2012 at 10:09 a.m. ( | suggest removal

I was looking for the punch line within this article and it never happened!

I hope Dubya takes a front row seat at the GOP convention this year, the optics would be priceless.

**George W. Bush Institute Launches Book On Economic Growth**

The former president writes the foreword for "The 4 Percent Solution: Unleashing the Economic Growth America Needs," which will be released Tuesday. He is set to give brief remarks at an event Tuesday evening in Dallas featuring several of those who contributed to the book.

nailingit — July 17, 2012 at 10:26 a.m. ( | suggest removal

A great editorial regarding consumerism v "Capitalism". Well worth the read...

**How corporations have made America like the USSR**
Free-market capitalism was supposed to save us from faceless apparatchiks. But that's not what happened

The great power struggle of the 20th century was the competition between Soviet-style communism and “free-market” corporatism for domination of the world’s resources. In America, it’s taken for granted that Soviet communism lost (though China’s more capitalist variant seems to be doing well), and the superiority of neo-liberal economics — as epitomized by the great multinational corporations — was thus affirmed for all time and eternity.

There’s a small problem with this, though. An old bit of wisdom says: choose your enemies carefully, because over time, you will tend to become the very thing you most strongly resist. One of the most striking things about our victorious corporations now is the degree to which they’ve taken on some of the most noxious and Kafkaesque attributes of the Soviet system — too often leaving their employees, customers, and other stakeholders just as powerless over their own fates as the unhappy citizens of those old centrally planned economies of the USSR were back in the day.

It’s not just that the corporations have taken control over our government (though that’s awful enough). It’s also that they’ve taken control over — and put serious limits on — our choices regarding what we buy, where we work, how we live, and what rights we have. Our futures are increasingly no longer our own: more and more decisions, large and small, that determine the quality of our lives are being made by Politburo apparatchiks at a Supreme Corporate Soviet somewhere far distant from us. Only now, those apparatchiks are PR and marketing executives, titans of corporate finance, lobbyists for multinationals, and bean-counting managers trying to increase profits at the expense of our freedom.

With tongue only somewhat in cheek, here are a few ways in which Americans are now becoming a new lumpenproletariat, subject to the whims and diktats of our new Soviet-style corporate overlords.


nailingit — July 17, 2012 at 10:51 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Reduced Choice and Big-Box Censorship

We see it most evidently when we go to the store. Back in the 1970s, the American retail landscape was still mostly dominated by mom-and-pop stores, which in turn carried merchandise also made by small manufacturers (many of them right here in the US). Not only did this complex economy sustain tens of millions of comfortable middle-class jobs; it also produced a dazzling variety of retail choices. Every store on Main Street carried somewhat different merchandise, bought from a different group of preferred suppliers. A shoe store might carry 20 different brands. The shoe store down the street might differentiate itself by carrying 10 of the same brands, and 10 different ones. The result was a very wide range of consumer choices — though you did have to go from store to store to find it — and a rich variety of stores that competed aggressively for their customers’ attention. And if you visited a different part of the country, the selection might be very different from what you’d get back home.

Now, every Macy’s in America carries the same dozen or so lines of bland, middle-of-the-road women’s clothing. You’ll find exactly the same stuff on the racks in Long Island as you do in Long Beach. If you’re looking for something that hasn’t been dumbed down to the lowest common denominator, you probably won’t find it at the mall.

Big-box stores have eliminated choice even further: The Supreme Soviet in Bentonville or Atlanta or Minneapolis has decreed what appears on the shelves of your local Walmart or Home Depot or Target store, with very little tailoring to local tastes and preferences. (Even our own tap water is being sold back to us by Coke and Pepsi.) You have exactly as many choices as they deign to devote shelf space to. Now that Wal-Mart is selling 25% of the groceries in America, if you’re looking for a specific brand that someone back in Bentonville decided Walmart will no longer carry, then you’re just plain out of luck. And since the other grocers in town often close up when a Walmart opens, there’s no place else to turn to find it.

nailingit — July 17, 2012 at 10:53 a.m. ( | suggest removal


This constriction of choice is most virulent when it comes to media. Big-box stores have very limited shelf space for each product category they carry; yet they are far and away the nation’s biggest purchasers of things like toys and video games. For the past 20 years, this fact has dominated decision-making in both those businesses: manufacturers know viscerally that if the buyers at Walmart aren’t interested in your toy or game, there’s probably no economic point in even making it. So everything is made with these buyers’ sensibilities, prejudices and cost requirements in mind. This became a de facto form of centralized control, where a handful of buyers in Bentonville ended up dictating what the entire country got to play with.

Increasingly, the corporatization of our consumer landscape has meant that there’s less choice and variety in our marketplaces than there used to be. Centrally planned franchise and chain stores have been stripped of quirkiness, uniqueness, local color, and anything that might be challenging to the most easily upset among us. The result is that we’re left with a bland, santized, Disneyfied set of choices in goods, experiences, entertainment, and ideas that’s a far cry from the lively, authentic Main Street scene those stores killed — and which has brought us several steps closer to the scary stereotype of the limited and poorly stocked state-controlled Soviet shops we were constantly threatened with during the Cold War. Yeah, it’s still better — but not as much better as it should be.

nailingit — July 17, 2012 at 10:55 a.m. ( | suggest removal

The Sovietization of malls and big-box stores has launched a couple of backlashes. Online shopping is the new refuge of people who are looking for a broader set of options. Local producers of food, clothing, grooming supplies, furniture, and other goods are stepping up to scratch our itch for things that are unique and special. These are both end-runs around the corporatized retail order that’s been systematically stripping away consumer choice for decades. But they’ve got a long way to go before they’ll supplant the neighborhood hegemony of Walgreens.

Health Care

The Supreme Health Care Soviet has also done a number on the kind of health care we get, how we get it, where we get it, and who we can get it from. Again: there was a time not so long ago when health care was in the hands of a doctor, who was usually in independent practice (often in a partnership with a couple of other doctors, but that’s it), and who had wide leeway to dictate patient care without being second-guessed. The doctor got sound, reliable information on new treatments from respected peer-reviewed journals, and insurance companies generally paid for most of what he or she ordered without further ado. This extreme level of autonomy notoriously led to doctors who overestimated their capacities; but it also meant that whatever happened in an examination room was — to an extraordinary degree — left in the hands of the doctor and the patient, and nobody else was entitled to interfere. The result was that, in the struggle between science and the doctor’s profit motive, science stood at least a fighting chance of prevailing.

Now, the profit Politburo has had its way with almost every aspect of this interaction. Two-thirds of primary care doctors don’t own their own practices anymore — in no small part because the administrative cost of dealing with Soviet bureaucrats insurance company overseers is so overwhelming. Now, they’re salaried employees of some large corporate entity, where they’re subject to constant pressure to shorten visits, rack up billable hours, stick to narrow protocols of accepted treatment and churn patients through.

nailingit — July 17, 2012 at 10:56 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Insurance bean-counters second-guess every order, requiring doctors to put in extra shifts each week writing letters and making phone calls to fight for their patients’ right to care. Every channel they rely on for information on new drugs and treatments — from the peer-reviewed journals to the medical conferences to the drug information inserts — has been co-opted by the pharmaceutical companies to ensure that doctors won’t ever get important information that might reflect badly on profitable drugs; and this, in turn, undermines evidence-based medicine in favor of a kind of corporate-driven Lysenkoism.

Increasingly, states are also inviting themselves into the exam room, passing laws telling doctors what they can and can’t tell you about your own condition (and, in some cases, demanding that they out-and-out lie to you, for reasons that are entirely political and seldom supported by science). And as a patient, your access to this co-opted, compromised care is entirely dependent on what the Politburo apparatchiks at your own employer’s corporate HQ have decided you deserve to have.

Again: what we’ve got here isn’t anything like a free or independent system, one in which patients and doctors are at liberty to make appropriate decisions without layers of centralized interference (much of it from people who aren’t even MDs). And most of this interference isn’t from government; it’s from various corporate interests that have subjugated both doctors and patients to a centralization regime in order to extract profits from them. During the Cold War, this is what we were told Soviet medicine was like. Now, we don’t have to go to Russia: we can get the same regimented, over-managed treatment from our own free-market health system — and we’ll pay more for it than anybody else in the world.

nailingit — July 17, 2012 at 10:59 a.m. ( | suggest removal


Education: Testing, Not Teaching

My eighth-grade civics teacher used to terrify our class with grim stories about the education endured by our unlucky peers in the USSR. Communist education, she said, was nothing but rote learning — no discussion, no critical thinking skills, all aimed at preparing kids for high-stakes standardized testing that would ultimately determine their place in the Party hierarchy. They weren’t free like we were to explore our own interests, or choose professions that pleased them. Rather than being treated like full, autonomous human beings being prepared for a limitless future of their own design, they were sorted and graded like potatoes, and tracked to serve the needs of the state. All of the decisions, we were told, were dictated by the central authorities in charge of determining what kind of workers the state would need, and which schools students would be sent to in order to fulfill those goals.

The ironies abound. Even as China has ramped up its efforts to inculcate creativity and critical thought in its students, the United States has voluntarily given up on those values — our competitive edge over the world for the past 150 years — in favor of a centralized, test-driven schooling regimen that only a Soviet bureaucrat could love. Increasingly, the doors to the best high schools and universities are closed to everyone but those in the top echelons of society, just as the best schools in the USSR were set aside for the children of the Party leadership. But the greatest irony of all is that, far from being done in the name of the state, this is being done by taking education out of the hands of the state and giving it over to for-profit corporations. Again, the more “private industry” gets involved, the more the outcome looks like something from a 1950s John Birch caricature of the horrors of Soviet life.

nailingit — July 17, 2012 at 11:01 a.m. ( | suggest removal

And On It Goes

These are just three easy examples. There are plenty more to be had:

* Our modern homes are designed by marketing researchers working for Soviet-style large developers that dictate what The People’s Houses should look like.

* Our food supply is dominated by Soviet-style government-mandated (but privately run) monoculture.

* Our voting system is increasingly restricted to people who are acceptable to the party hierarchy, just as the Soviet system limited Communist Party membership to a small percentage of the population; and corporate-owned machines count our votes.

* Our increasingly privatized and militarized law enforcement is starting to owe a lot to the brutal Soviet policing style, too. We have gulags now — and the corporations are running them, too.

* Our response to climate change is being driven by another form of Lysenkoism — a science-denial movement driven by corporations that are threatened by any demand that they change their ways.

* And anybody who’s dealt with a bank foreclosure can tell you stories that would cross Franz Kafka’s eyes about the runaround they get every time they try to contact their lender. Checks and papers vanish, and must be sent over and over. Payments are never posted. And you can never talk to the same person twice. (We used to think the DMV was bad enough, but now we know: it takes a corporation to really screw things up.) This kind of faceless, brutally inhuman bureaucracy used to be the stuff of totalitarian nightmares. Now, it’s everyday reality for tens of millions of American homeowners.

This is corporate-sponsored tyranny that comes at a huge expense to the masses. The great irony of our age is that, over the past 60 years, the more energy we put into resisting Communism by raising up the cult of the consumer (and the corporations that serviced it), the more our own corporate overlords were able to seize our resources and energy, and divert them into the goal of consolidating their power and inflicting their own totalitarian, centrally planned hell on us.

The USSR has been a historical dead letter for over 20 years now — but there are still plenty of earnest Fox-watching Americans for whom “communism” remains the most terrifying of all scare words. They’re vigilantly watching the leftward horizon, scanning for signs of government-inflicted socialism, ready to strip their own democracy of its very ability to thwart totalitarians if that’s what must be done to stop totalitarianism.

nailingit — July 17, 2012 at 11:03 a.m. ( | suggest removal

to conclude...

Unfortunately, they’re facing the wrong direction. The real threat of dignity-stripping, liberty-destroying, soul-crushing oppression is coming not from government, but from the very corporations those same people believed were the key to our superiority over the Communist menace. Now that the government can’t protect us from rapacious businesses any more, the centrally planned authoritarian state they’ve feared is already coming to pass — privately, for the profit of the few, free from pesky accountability or oversight, and without a bit of resistance from the would-be patriots who have been on guard for decades to ensure it could never happen here.

nailingit — July 17, 2012 at 11:13 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Nail... Pot meet Kettle.

I knew you'd have to get your "two cent's worth" in and that is fine. I expected it but rather than taking it like you are the controller of the forum (unless you are in fact a certain little media coordinator under an alias utilizing his own private email...or at least a wannabe) in your rather lengthy piece which obviously includes your own little...ahem...notes of advice as you'd like to refer them (only ONE goldenoldie avatar and only one avatar associated with my email...and TWO avatars through my IP address, one being my relative who no longer posts and the other one being goldenoldie, btw), so why not just state a general agreement with a general consensus to discuss the matters at controller...just one of a list of fellow commenting folks who want a fair exchange of mudslinging, no more making others feel so uncomfortable to share their given right to express an opinion.

goldenoldie — July 17, 2012 at 12:16 p.m. ( | suggest removal


From an article on using private contractors to provide security at the Olympics. Kinda along your line...

One of the hidden costs of privatisation is that knowledge and expertise are no longer retained by public institutions. Instead, they become the property of private contractors. Militaries, police forces, and other public services lose the ability and the institutional memory to conduct various tasks. Governments must then pay the price over and over again for contractors to do the job badly.

Contractors care little about developing and retaining dedicated expertise in particular tasks. They need only enough to secure the contract. Their bottom line is profit, not security or the public good. As a consequence, privatisation is a kind of "de-development", a de-modernisation of the services government provides and which we pay for through taxes.

Naturally, corporations and their political allies tell us otherwise, that the private sector does more for less while earning a tidy profit. If a salesmen showed up at your door promising this kind of magic - money for nothing - you would know what to do.

Why then do the voting publics of the West continue to believe in the big lie of private sector efficiency?

mrd — July 17, 2012 at 12:17 p.m. ( | suggest removal

To clarify my 12:16 pm comment...

That is, no more making others feel so uncomfortable in sharing their given right to express an opinion...are discouraged and are silenced.

goldenoldie — July 17, 2012 at 12:20 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Makes one look like a fool.

crazytrain — July 17, 2012 at 11 a.m.

A fool amongst colleagues??? Hmm...didn't someone use to have that avatar...aka collegial fool???

goldenoldie — July 17, 2012 at 12:22 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Good job Columbian, looking forward to more. On the candidates...

Jon seems well informed and might be a good representative.

Norma represents the Ron Paul movement to a tee.

Does anyone else think Jaime looks quite a bit like Maggie Gyllenhall???

**3rd District candidates weigh in on CRC
Herrera Beutler, two challengers also discuss economy, foreign policy**

nailingit — July 17, 2012 at 12:22 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Thanks Dee (and Hawkeye). I've never truly been gone. Just found no need to post till the article on climate change and the drought we're experiencing across over half of the continental US. I see things have never changed on here, though...just a bit more vile.

And to think some call themselves mature adults.

goldenoldie — July 17, 2012 at 10:01 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal | Ignore User )

Well that certainly says a lot.

soapbox4u — July 17, 2012 at 12:27 p.m. ( | suggest removal

mrd-Why then do the voting publics of the West continue to believe in the big lie of private sector efficiency?

Excellent question! I think it's knowledge based, or lack thereof. As we continue to vet Romney more and more "private sector efficiency" will be brought to light.

I used to be concerned that Romney was the chosen one. Now I think he was the best pick to represent the Republican establishment on this stage. America will be forced to take a hard look at aforementioned issues.

nailingit — July 17, 2012 at 12:30 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Release em' Mitt! What's the harm? ;)

Republicans calling for Romney to release his tax returns agree with Navarro — he needs to do it now. On ABC’s “This Week” roundtable Sunday, Will and consultant Matthew Dowd both advised Romney to give into the pressure.

“If something’s going to come out, get it out in a hurry,” Will said. “I do not know why, given that Mitt Romney knew the day that [John] McCain lost in 2008 that he was going to run for president again that he didn’t get all of this out and tidy up some of his offshore accounts and all the rest.”

**“The cost of not releasing the returns are clear,” he added. “Therefore, he must have calculated that there are higher costs in releasing them.”**

Read more:

nailingit — July 17, 2012 at 2:02 p.m. ( | suggest removal

I think most Dems are in complete agreement with allowing Sarah to speak! Also the Donald and Glenn Beck would be fine additions to represent today's GOP/conservatives on the national stage.

SARAH! SARAH! SARAH! I can hear the chanting now..............!:)!

**Newt Gingrich: Sarah Palin Should 'Absolutely' Speak At Republican National Convention**

Still, the Romney campaign's reticence could stem from the fact that Palin has repeatedly expressed her reservations about the presumptive Republican nominee's candidacy and has yet to offer him her full endorsement. Just last week, she told Fox News that Romney needs to do a better job of motivating the base and advised Romney to "light our hair on fire."

nailingit — July 17, 2012 at 3:02 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Well that certainly says a lot.

soapbox4u — July 17, 2012 at 12:27 p.m.

Ah yes, soapie. I was wondering when you'd peek out from that soap box you hide under...don't you ever have local/national/international issues to discuss or are you just out to stir things up with me??? So soapie, how 'bout that drought which has consumed over 56% of our nation's viable topsoil??? Pretty bad, eh??? You think it has to do with climate change???

If you decide not to respond to the subject of the drought OR climate change...well then, that certainly says a lot!!!


goldenoldie — July 17, 2012 at 3:24 p.m. ( | suggest removal

"The Cult of Endless Distraction is the instigator of the Zombie Apocalypse"

goldenoldie — July 17, 2012 at 3:26 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Well, well. Congress has admitted what we all know, THEY'RE WORTHLESS! Can't do anything. And we re-elect the same worthless people about 85% of the time.

“We can talk all we want -- everyone gives speeches how fiscal policy should be the way to go and we don't do anything," Sen. Charles Schumer, D- N.Y., told Bernanke. “Given the political realities, Mr. Chairman, particularly in this election year, I am afraid the Fed is the only game in town. And I would urge you to take whatever actions you think would be most helpful in supporting a stronger economic recovery.”

mrd — July 17, 2012 at 3:57 p.m. ( | suggest removal

mrd — July 17, 2012 at 12:17 p.m.

In my varied discussions with Mr. Madore, he believes that almost EVERY service that the city, county, state provides for your tax dollars should be put out to bid by private contractors. I'm not so sure.

hawkeye — July 17, 2012 at 4:04 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Why do you think he needs to give out previous years tax records. He gave out 2011 I believe already which showed a snapshot of his earnings and how h e invests and donates. remember he did donate 10Mil last year. I personally don't care about how much a person earns, I care about their platform for business growth and less government intervention on my business. I sure would be in favor of a revamped tax code for sure. I think the dems are just spewing the 1% card and trying to seperate the have and the wanna bees even more. Like I've said before I'm not in favor of giving someone my money, just my work ethic so they can go out and earn a buck as I do.

vanwadreamer — July 17, 2012 at 4:11 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Well that certainly says a lot.

soapbox4u — July 17, 2012 at 12:27 p.m.

Ah yes, soapie. I was wondering when you'd peek out from that soap box you hide under...don't you ever have local/national/international issues to discuss or are you just out to stir things up with me??? So soapie, how 'bout that drought which has consumed over 56% of our nation's viable topsoil??? Pretty bad, eh??? You think it has to do with climate change???

If you decide not to respond to the subject of the drought OR climate change...well then, that certainly says a lot!!!

Too bad you just don't accept responsibility for your own bad judgement in words and quit blaming everyone else's attitude. Misdirection back to any other topic is no substitute for your misguided words.

soapbox4u — July 17, 2012 at 4:38 p.m. ( | suggest removal

let us compromise.

romney: releases 10 years of tax returns

obama: releases educational records.

there. simple.

DeeLittle — July 17, 2012 at 4:46 p.m. ( | suggest removal


anyone have an interest in the higgs boson?

DeeLittle — July 17, 2012 at 4:48 p.m. ( | suggest removal

**Study: People Who Are Constantly Online Can Develop Mental Disorders**

*CHARLOTTE (CBS Charlotte) — Get off that computer. A new study finds that constantly being online can affect your mental health.*

DeeLittle — July 17, 2012 at 4:59 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Goldenoldie, encephalomalacia is most likely to blame here, no apology required.

soapbox4u — July 17, 2012 at 5:01 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Dee -
Check out the article in Wiki:
Internet addiction disorder (IAD), or, more broadly, Internet overuse, problematic computer use or pathological computer use, is excessive computer use that interferes with daily life.[1]
Often goes hand in hand: the mental disorder and the addiction.

soapbox4u — July 17, 2012 at 5:06 p.m. ( | suggest removal

vanwa-For one, I'd like to see how much faith/$$$ he puts into American based companies that provide employment in the US. After so much brou ha ha, I'm starting to wonder if he's not a tax cheat. He does want to be our President after all. It no doubt would provide Americans a great window with regards for the need to enact tax reform, and speak to area's in which we need to look. Tax fairness is an issue.

Does anyone trust this guy?

Erin lays it out pretty well. Transparency is so important in politics. Take it up to the Presidential level and it's a must. 10 million last year? I thought it was in the 7 million range.

"I care about their platform for business growth and less government intervention on my business."

What policies has Romney offered that would benefit your business over Obama's policies?

nailingit — July 17, 2012 at 5:08 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Hey Dee,
why Obama's education records? Just curious.

luvithere — July 17, 2012 at 5:10 p.m. ( | suggest removal

These guys are something else! Can't wait for November...

**GOP Spending Bill Aims To Defund Planned Parenthood, Up Abstinence-Only Funds (UPDATE)**

Rep. Denny Rehberg (R-Mont.) released a labor, health and education spending bill on Tuesday that would defund Planned Parenthood and Title X, block the implementation of the Affordable Care Act, allow any employer to deny women birth control coverage under the ACA for "moral reasons" and increase spending for abstinence-only education.

nailingit — July 17, 2012 at 5:51 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Northwest newspaper layoffs at The Seattle Times. 20 in January 2012 and about 12 more coming up in Aug/Sept, some in the newsroom.

manthou — July 17, 2012 at 5:57 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Dee @ 4:48. I do. That and anything quantum physics/mechanics-related. Makes my brain spin. :)

Soapbox4u: :D We both got slapped upside the head today for misbehaving. All I did was list some dear departed forum participants. Why do you suppose the mere mention of their noms de plume caused such an overblown reaction?

We're gonna rot in hell together. At least we will have good company.

Lighten up. Life's short. And oh, yes: Stop trying to control the conversation on here. You might has well be herding ants. :)

manthou — July 17, 2012 at 6:07 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Anyone else watch that Animal Planet special Sunday night on the mermaid found washed up on a Washington beach? They had a couple of kids find something strange, and they videod using a cell phone. All of a sudden, what looks vaguely like a hand twitches, and then some bluish faced humanoid creature sits up and grabs at one of the kids. The rest of the show was two scientists presenting evidence of mermaid existence from around the world, and an anonymous person claiming to be ex-Navy that was part of the cover-up. The show contended that a separate race of apes evolved into sea creatures in the distant past.

Astounding show. And even more amazing was that the alleged gov't coverup was actually effective - never heard of any of this before. I ran a google check to look for more info, and found out the show was a work of fiction - you had to watch the closing credits to be told of this. Pissed me off!!!

But I still recommend watching it if you get the chance.

roger — July 17, 2012 at 6:12 p.m. ( | suggest removal

roger: I missed that, but will try to catch it.

In the spirit of continuing to follow your lead and change the subject, check out this awesome trailer for the upcoming 2013 Disney film "The Great and Powerful Oz"

Anyone else think James Franco is awesome?

manthou — July 17, 2012 at 6:19 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Manthou -

Fantastic news!!! As a rule, I can't get into follow on movies, but will definitely make an exception here. One of Baum's follow-on stories told of how OZ became the wizard; wonder if they're following that?

roger — July 17, 2012 at 6:34 p.m. ( | suggest removal

A couple from one of the overlooked great bands - Traffic.

roger — July 17, 2012 at 6:53 p.m. ( | suggest removal

soapbox4u — July 17, 2012 at 5:01 p.m.

Glad to see you came out of the darkness and recognized what *ills* you. (end sarcasm)

Manthou...just giving some friendly advice.

My reasoning for the original **suggestion** for folks to move on was merely intended as a proactive approach, Manthou. That *IS* how I'd assume you work with your clientele - already worked through the past, working together to correct today and improve on tomorrow??? Much like your trip up north, representing the people...proactively, right??? Taking that first step.

Rather than rehashing about the old skeletons in the closet...we work on today's issues in order to focus on making a better tomorrow...but it appears that isn't part of the program on the forum any more. It is far too obvious there's a little clique in the forum, pent up in causing chaos and anger, and it has instead made the forum more divided than it ever was before...rather sad, I'd say. I figure's a prime representation of just why our nation is failing us. It's no wonder so many companies are leaving the US! We're all too caught up in drama.

Again, I have a request of all...why don't we focus on the situation in our neighborhoods, our towns, our counties, our states, our nation, the world...and discuss the issues as rational adults SHOULD discuss rather than bringing up the old skeletons which do absolutely nothing but increase negativity amongst each other. We all have different religious beliefs, different political beliefs, different views of the facts and different opinions...but we all should be working together... shouldn't we???

goldenoldie — July 17, 2012 at 7:42 p.m. ( | suggest removal


back to the drought situation. According to an article in, more than 77% of Texas is enduring a moderate to extreme drought with West Texas enduring a long-term drought. Another source cited 99% of Texas is experiencing a drought. According to another source, Texas has lost an estimated $7.62 Billion dollars in crop and livestock losses since 2012. Included in that crop loss is cotton...estimated to be about $1.8 billion dollars alone.

goldenoldie — July 17, 2012 at 7:59 p.m. ( | suggest removal


anyone have an interest in the higgs boson?

DeeLittle — July 17, 2012 at 4:48 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal | Ignore User

I do. What would you care to discuss? Perhaps discuss the existence of such matter, strings, these goofy quarks, sub-atomic matter? I find these things pretty cool. For starters, I'd like to discuss these things without a religious slant, after all, it's physics. Care to do so?

mrd — July 17, 2012 at 8:59 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Roger, Traffic was great. Actually anything Winwood was involved in was great. I have his greatest hits, it takes all day to listen to it.

hawkeye — July 17, 2012 at 10:17 p.m. ( | suggest removal

***Anybody see this? Criminals!!!!***

Two Seattle men say they spent more than two hours in a detention center at the Canadian border after border agents stopped them for illegal chocolate eggs.

KOMO-TV reports ( that Brandon Loo and Christopher Sweeney were on a recent trip to Vancouver, British Columbia, when they decided to bring home some treats for friends and family.

They bought Kinder Eggs _ chocolate eggs with a toy inside.

Border guards searched their car and found the eggs. The two men say they were asked if they knew the eggs were illegal in the United States and carry a potentially hefty fine.

Sweeney says the bust was a waste of his time and the agents' time. The men eventually got off with a warning.

At Easter time, U.S. Customs and Border Protection warned on its website that while the treats "may be cute and seasonal" they are too dangerous to be imported legally into the U.S. Customs says young children could choke on the small plastic toy.

hawkeye — July 17, 2012 at 10:20 p.m. ( | suggest removal

manthou-*We're gonna rot in hell together. At least we will have good company.*

I'll bring the sunblock.

btw, if hell involves the wailing and gnashing of teeth, how does that fit with those who are mute and wear dentures?

The Wizard of Oz is without a doubt my favorite all time movie. The trailer looks pretty cool! My wife got me to watch 'Political Animals' tonight with Sigourney Weaver. A lot of fun! It doesn't get better than Sigourney.

nailingit — July 17, 2012 at 11:05 p.m. ( | suggest removal

roger, hawk- Low Spark of High Heeled Boys is one of my favorite all time recordings. Winwood is great. One of those musically gifted folk that can pick up anything and make it sonically infectious. As a side note he played/contributed with Jimi's Electric Ladyland recording. They were also buds. Oh to go back in time & space and meet some of these guys and pick their brains...maybe someday.

nailingit — July 17, 2012 at 11:13 p.m. ( | suggest removal

luvithere @ 5:10- You might not be getting a response back from dee on this. Just in case, I thought you might find these links interesting. It speaks to yet another fringe conspiracy from the right wing. Warning, you'll feel a need to wash up after reading a few lines. ;)

I'm checking out the German Bakery Thursday!

nailingit — July 17, 2012 at 11:26 p.m. ( | suggest removal

OK, I know I have been out of it for a few days. Once again an issue of what basil refers to as censorship. However, the reasoning behind my denial of access is sound.

So I was looking at the uproar over candidates releasing tax forms, so I did some research and found the released forms online. While I won't talk about the fact that the President wishes the wealthy to pay more, but turns around and itemizes deductions instead of taking the standard deduction so he will pay less, I do want to point out something I discovered that has me wondering what the devil is wrong at the SSA.

My mother and grandparents are collecting Social Security. They are at an age where they can, no problem. However, reading through the information, should they choose to hold a job earning a wage, their SS benefits can be reduced based on how much they earn, even to the point of not recieving benefits at all if they earn above a certain level. I have no problem with this. If you are able to earn enough to take care of yourself, then by all means do so.

Now let's look at our Vice President. For 2011, he reports earning from salary and other sources $354,849. What disturbs me is that he also recieved $28,454 in Social Security benefits.

Can anyone explain to me how that works?

danabwoodley — July 18, 2012 at 2:45 a.m. ( | suggest removal

roger — July 17, 2012 at 6:53 p.m

One of the few albums I still have in vinyl and one that often winds up on the ipod.

mr_basil_seal — July 18, 2012 at 6:25 a.m. ( | suggest removal

So, what's your point?

mr_basil_seal — July 18, 2012 at 6:38 a.m. ( | suggest removal

*Well if wanting people who are able bodied to make an effort to take care of themselves and not to be so dependent on public assistance (read tax money) is a right wing talking point, then fine, I will shout to the far left througha bull horn.* danabwoodley — July 14, 2012 at 8:47 p.m.

Again, you are making a strawman argument.

IF you want to make a viable point, show us the data that what you claim is a problem.

Where are the statistics? Give us a number.

mr_basil_seal — July 18, 2012 at 6:49 a.m. ( | suggest removal

GOP seeks to kill black lung reform
Black lung surges back in coal country
By Chris Hamby July 8, 2012

House Republicans inserted language in a budget bill unveiled Tuesday that would kill a proposed rule to protect coal miners from dust that causes black lung.

Democrats on the House Committee on Appropriations objected, saying in a statement, “Recent reporting by NPR and the Center for Public Integrity has highlighted the need for more effective ‘black lung’ disease prevention efforts as there has been a resurgence of the disease among coal miners.”

The Center-NPR investigation found that, after decades of decline, black lung is making a comeback, increasingly afflicting younger miners with a more severe, faster-progressing form of the disease. The system for monitoring miners’ exposure to dust is riddled with loopholes, and regulators have sometimes failed to enforce even these rules. Mining companies have taken advantage of a self-policing system to manipulate dust sampling results for decades.

In 2010, the federal Mine Safety and Health Administration proposed a rule that would close some loopholes, though it would still leave much of the sampling in the hands of mining companies. Last December, House Republicans inserted language in a previous budget bill that would have barred any money from being spent to implement the rule until the Government Accountability Office evaluated whether the proposal was necessary. That study is on track to be released in August.

The insertion of a paragraph into the new Labor Department’s budget bill goes further, barring the agency from using any money to continue developing the rule, issuing it or enforcing it.

Both Denny Rehberg, the Montana Republican who wrote the bill, and Hal Rogers, chairman of the appropriations committee, are up for re-election this year, and both count the coal mining industry among their top donors. Rogers, a Kentucky Republican, has long been a champion of the industry, and mining companies have donated more to his campaigns over the years – about $378,000 – than any other industry. Neither Rehberg nor Rogers responded immediately to requests for comment Tuesday.

mr_basil_seal — July 18, 2012 at 6:55 a.m. ( | suggest removal

So, according to basil it is a strawman argument laced with the standard right wing talking points. Can anyone explain to me why I am wrong to be annoyed with people collecting assistance when they are completely capable of working?

And the question is still there asking what makes someone too good to perform a certain type of labor?

danabwoodley — July 18, 2012 at 7:58 a.m. ( | suggest removal

I had to share this one, curious of what you all think-

An economics professor at a local college made a statement that he had never failed a single student before, but had recently failed an entire class. That class had insisted that Obama's socialism worked and that no one would be poor and no one would be rich, a great equalizer.
The professor then said, "OK, we will have an experiment in this class on Obama's plan". All grades will be averaged and everyone will receive the same grade so no one will fail and no one will receive an A.... (substituting grades for dollars - something closer to home and more readily understood by all).
After the first test, the grades were averaged and everyone got a B. The students who studied hard were upset and the students who studied little were happy. As the second test rolled around, the students who studied little had studied even less and the ones who studied hard decided they wanted a free ride too so they studied little..
The second test average was a D! No one was happy. When the 3rd test rolled around, the average was an F. As the tests proceeded, the scores never increased as bickering, blame and name-calling all resulted in hard feelings and no one would study for the benefit of anyone else. To their great surprise, ALL FAILED and the professor told them that socialism would also ultimately fail because when the reward is great, the effort to succeed is great, but when government takes all the reward away, no one will try or want to succeed. It could not be any simpler than that.
Remember, there IS a test coming up. The 2012 elections.

These are possibly the 5 best sentences you'll ever read and all applicable to this experiment:
1. You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity.
2. What one person receives without working for, another person must work for without receiving.
3. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else.
4. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it!
5. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them, and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for, that is the beginning of the end of any nation.

danabwoodley — July 18, 2012 at 8:02 a.m. ( | suggest removal

So, according to basil it is a strawman argument laced with the standard right wing talking points. Can anyone explain to me why I am wrong to be annoyed with people collecting assistance when they are completely capable of working?

And the question is still there asking what makes someone too good to perform a certain type of labor?

danabwoodley — July 18, 2012 at 7:58 a.m.

It is a strawman argument because you are making claims with no substantiation. A claim that is oft repeated as a rw talking point.

How many people - as in a reputable source with data - are "too good to perform a certain type of labor?"

mr_basil_seal — July 18, 2012 at 8:17 a.m. ( | suggest removal

At 8:02 a.m. on July 18, 2012, danabwoodley tried some talking points .... *1. You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity.*

Who is "legislating the wealthy out of prosperity."

In fact, who is even attempting to "legislating the wealthy out of prosperity."?

However, there is ample evidence of the plutocracy legislating the poor into poverty.

mr_basil_seal — July 18, 2012 at 8:28 a.m. ( | suggest removal

At 8:02 a.m. on July 18, 2012, danabwoodley copy pasted some talking points: "*The professor then said, "OK, we will have an experiment in this class on Obama's plan". All grades will be averaged and everyone will receive the same grade so no one will fail and no one will receive an A.... (substituting grades for dollars - something closer to home and more readily understood by all).*

Can you point to "Obama's plan"?

FYI, much of your college level business classes will require group work.

With a single grade assigned to the whole group.

mr_basil_seal — July 18, 2012 at 8:33 a.m. ( | suggest removal

A short excerpt:

#It's a Great Day to Act to Cut the Pentagon Budget
Wednesday, 18 July 2012

By Robert Naiman

"An amendment to cut $1.1 billion - a freeze at fiscal year 2012 levels - is expected to be offered by Mick Mulvaney (R-South Carolina and Barney Frank (D-Massachusetts). This very modest amendment stands the best chance of passing. Compared to the Pentagon budget, this would be a very modest cut, a fraction of a percent. But when you compare it to domestic spending cuts being considered - like spending on food stamps - $1.1 billion is real money."

mr_basil_seal — July 18, 2012 at 8:40 a.m. ( | suggest removal

#Pass the DISCLOSE Act Now

Liz Kennedy

Tonight, critical legislation that would shine a light on the dark money dominating our democracy was defeated on the Senate floor. To be clear, it received a majority of votes, but failed to overcome a filibuster from Senator McConnell. Even he was for disclosure before he was against it, saying in 1997 that "Public disclosure of campaign contributions and spending should be expedited so voters can judge for themselves what is appropriate."

The Senate considered simple, common-sense legislation that would require all groups that spend over $10,000 to report who provides their funding. The DISCLOSE Act, whose long title is “Democracy is Strengthened by Casting Light on Spending in Elections,” would apply evenly across the board to all groups that engage in political spending, whether Super PACs, nonprofits, corporations, labor organizations, or trade associations. Currently, many of these groups are not required publicly to identify the source of their funds. This goes against the principle that voters have a right to know who is trying to influence their vote.

We are seeing unprecedented amounts of outside money being spent on elections, and two-thirds of all the political ads from outside groups have come from groups that don’t disclose their donors. Unfortunately, the current system can amount to little more than legal money laundering. The Washington Post, editorializing in favor of the DISCLOSE Act, asks: “Who is writing checks for $10 million or $1 million at a single throw, and what do they want? We don’t know, and this shadowy bazaar undermines our political system.”

Even the much-maligned Citizens United decision relied on the premise – false, unfortunately – that the money flooding into elections would be disclosed:

mr_basil_seal — July 18, 2012 at 8:44 a.m. ( | suggest removal

crazytrain — July 18, 2012 at 9:22 a.m


mr_basil_seal — July 18, 2012 at 9:42 a.m. ( | suggest removal

danabwoodley — July 18, 2012 at 2:45 a.m.

How old is your mother?

langenthal — July 18, 2012 at 10:05 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Despite Roger’s efforts to bring up specific issues to focus on, the only thing this forum has ever been good for is as a study of how bias taints one’s view. And that predates Roger, et al. by a long time. I could go on about this, but there’s hardly any point. You may want to look up the field of epistemology, and see the underpinnings of the whole thing. But then again, I guess some of you would think that’s all 17th century stuff that has no use in today’s world. Maybe like the foundations of the American Bill of Rights. But of course; everything is different now.

Bias taints one’s perspective, and extreme bias taints one’s perspective extremely.

And Roger: this is also evident in how people view the whole CRC issue. There is the pie-in-the sky and then there is the efficacy of the whole thing. But there’s my own bias I guess.

kn_dalai — July 18, 2012 at 10:10 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Glenn Beck, Bachman conspiracy theories are out of control! Their snake oil has reached Egypt.

Beck is one thing, a used car dealer propagating any conspiracy to make a buck from delusional conservatives. But Bachman is a sitting member of Congress. At least McCain did a little better speaking to this than he did with his explanation of his obstruction/secret money vote the other day.

nailingit — July 18, 2012 at 10:14 a.m. ( | suggest removal

kn_dalai — July 18, 2012 at 10:10 a.m

And your point is????

danabwoodley — July 18, 2012 at 2:45 a.m.

I agree, that ain't right.

hawkeye — July 18, 2012 at 10:16 a.m. ( | suggest removal

*Despite Roger’s efforts to bring up specific issues to focus on,*

Traffic was addressed. I haven't caught the Mermaid expose' and have pressed for further info about population control.

Please be "specific".

nailingit — July 18, 2012 at 10:17 a.m. ( | suggest removal

My point is simple and straight forward, Hawkeye.

Funny how extremist Leftists, are quick to negatively respond to my most modest observations.

Says something I think.

kn_dalai — July 18, 2012 at 10:32 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Anymore, just asking for more info is deemed negative. If I ask again I suppose it will be deemed an attack...

It does say a lot...

nailingit — July 18, 2012 at 10:42 a.m. ( | suggest removal

kn_dalai — July 18, 2012 at 10:32 a.m.

hawkeye — July 17, 2012 at 4:04 p.m.
That's "extremist Leftists " ? , Really?

Which of these? you pick

mr_basil_seal — July 18, 2012 at 10:55 a.m. ( | suggest removal

nailingit — July 18, 2012 at 10:42 a.m.

Where is that report about low information voters?.....

captcha = nonpit crookville,

mr_basil_seal — July 18, 2012 at 10:57 a.m. ( | suggest removal


At the Florida rep debate he let his 2011 tax records out just before the debate. Yes 1o million to charity, doesn't matter to me where.. OBTW Obama gave 500K to charity, kudos to him as well.. Along with Romney paying 14% in overall tax rate , the way he earned his income was taxed at the correct rate per the US tax code. Again if you have a 401k or another type of retirment plan most likely you'll have overseas investments. I invested in companies that help rebuild Thailand after the sunammi.. Many were US companies. Again not to beat a dead horse but to "nit pick" his US investments and to say he should invest more or less by someone who is not educated in making or "earning" money through investments is like asking your doctor to work on your car or ask your mechanic to perform open heart surgery... All people want to do is persacute someone for actually making allot of money... Many people are looking for handouts instead of looking for work. One reason we have more people on government assistance than ever before.. I would gladly help someone by giving them my work ethic over giving them my money for nothing... Don't get me wrong. I have kids that have taken them along time to figure that out...I believe if you look at Obama work record, he hasn't held a private sector job since he was like 23 or 24 yrs old and then for what a yearABTW all policticians are cut from the smae cloth, Snake oil.. Thats why there called politicians. take the party name away from them and there all the same. There looking out for themselves not you and I...

I don't think you would spew such stuff as cut the pentagon budget if you had a couple Kids, like 19 and 30 fighting in Afganistan now would you... I just wish you would walk in someone elese's shoes before you make such comments...I'm not saying there isn't waste to be cut like all of government and our own budgets, but knowing what I know cutting the current budget doesn't make my kids any safer.

vanwadreamer — July 18, 2012 at 11:06 a.m. ( | suggest removal

vanwa- *All people want to do is persacute someone for actually making allot of money*

Now you are getting into Limbaugh territory. Please expound with your belief.

*One reason we have more people on government assistance than ever before..*

You might want to review the Presidency/Congress 2000-2008 years to properly gauge this. Policies which drove us into fiscal ruin deserve much attention. Remember, the Stimulus package in part consisted of 40% tax cuts. Needed to be bigger in order to properly...stimulate.

*Many people are looking for handouts instead of looking for work.*

Just a right wing talking point. If you can provide a source or solid examples to back this statement I'm all ears.

*.I believe if you look at Obama work record, he hasn't held a private sector job since he was like 23 or 24 yrs old and then for what a year*

Are you implying The President of the United States aka Leader of the Free World has a poor work ethic? Again, I'm all ears.

*all policticians are cut from the smae cloth, Snake oil.. Thats why there called politicians.*

Would you say this about FDR?

I agree many politicians are out to serve their personal interests. That's why we need to vet policy/politicians and scrutinize the effects they have on our society. IMO :)

nailingit — July 18, 2012 at 12:16 p.m. ( | suggest removal

mr_basil_seal- It's a sad state of affairs when a simple question is posed and denounced as negative.

Especially when said comment is couched in The Bill of Rights!

I suppose that...*.But of course; everything is different now.* has a ring of truth to it.

nailingit — July 18, 2012 at 12:22 p.m. ( | suggest removal

***Only from the mind of Rush***

(RNN) – Bain is the private equity firm founded by Mitt Romney. Bane is the arch-nemesis of Batman in the upcoming film The Dark Knight Rises.

Conservative commentator Rush Limbaugh says the two are connected.

The following is a partial transcript from his radio show's website:

Have you heard this new movie, the Batman movie, what is it, The Dark Knight Lights Up or whatever the name is? That's right, Dark Knight Rises. Lights up, same thing. Do you know the name of the villain in this movie? Bane.

The villain in The Dark Knight Rises is named Bane, B-a-n-e. What is the name of the venture capital firm that Romney ran and around which there's now this make-believe controversy? Bain. The movie has been in the works for a long time. The release date's been known, summer 2012, for a long time.

Do you think that it is accidental that the name of the really vicious, fire-breathing, four-eyed whatever it is villain in this movie is named Bane?

If he meant "accidental" in that the character Bane has anything to do with Bain Capital, then yes, it is totally accidental. Either that or the character's creators were Nostradamus-level soothsayers.

And for the record, "rises" and "lights up" don't mean the same thing.

DC Comics creative team Chuck Dixon and Graham Nolan introduced Bane (who neither breathes fire nor has four eyes) in the Batman comic books in 1993. Bane became infamous in the DC universe as the man who released all of Gotham City's criminals and broke the caped crusader's back in the Knightfall storyline.

The origin of the name had nothing to do with the company. It came from the definition of the word, Bane, which means "something, typically poison, that causes death."

It's also a synonym for venom, and Bane used a substance called ... wait for it... "Venom" to give him superhuman strength.

hawkeye — July 18, 2012 at 12:26 p.m. ( | suggest removal

While we're on the subject of releasing tax returns/disclosure...

Apparently Romney hasn't fully disclosed for.......ONE!

**Mitt Romney Taxes For 2010 Not Fully Disclosed**

WASHINGTON -- Mitt Romney has not released his full tax records from 2010, including key documentation connected to his Swiss bank account.

Although President Barack Obama and an increasing number of Republican politicians have called on Romney to release tax returns from years prior to 2010, the public criticism has so far failed to note that Romney has not disclosed all of his tax documents for 2010 itself -- the only year for which the GOP presidential nominee has presented any final tax forms.

nailingit — July 18, 2012 at 12:31 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Funny how extremist Leftists, are quick to negatively respond to my most modest observations.

Says something I think.

kn_dalai — July 18, 2012 at 10:32 a.m

What your post really says is that you see things in a very strange way. If I'm an "extreme leftist" that must make you a left wing moderate.

hawkeye — July 18, 2012 at 12:38 p.m. ( | suggest removal

hawkeye- It is amazing to think Rush has a few million listeners. The average age group who do listen are approaching 70.

Nature is taking it's course.

nailingit — July 18, 2012 at 12:40 p.m. ( | suggest removal

"Many people are looking for handouts instead of looking for work".

According to US Census Bureau records (2004), 38% of people of the work force age group hadn't worked in the last 4 months. Less that 5% of that group claimed they "weren't interested in working" or "other". Most were retired, stay-at-home moms, and disabled. So it doesn't seem the numbers support the notion there are many folks just hanging around for a handout. But today, after the wagons were circled to protect the monied interests, I'd imagine sitting around waiting for a handout is the only way to survive. I read were teenagers were having trouble scoring a burger-flipping job due to older, more experienced people resorting to minimum wage jobs. Wonder why recovery is so slow-low wages acroos the lower portion of the economic ladder. The top 1% now account for over 50% of consumer spending-what's that tell you?

Speaking of handouts, did you see where contractors in Iraq essentially cheated the taxpayers out of $8B (so far) for reconstruction? How about the big banks? Who knows how much taxpayer money they've been given? I won't even go into the tax structure, but I imagine several billion dollars per year get handed out to those "job creators". Now if they'd create a few on-shore jobs, that'd be nice.

mrd — July 18, 2012 at 1:12 p.m. ( | suggest removal

manthou @ 6:07. No slap received here. Just a whoosh of passing air from the empty words of the resident non-entity! Hell? One might argue where the state of hell exists. Good company? Definitely!!

soapbox4u — July 18, 2012 at 1:16 p.m. ( | suggest removal

danabwoodley 7/18 @ 8:02- Considering your post seems to be a cut & paste trumpeted on the Paul site, (or from where if not Paul?) are you a fan of Ron Paul and his Libertarian beliefs?

If so, how do your Humanist beliefs reckon with your political philosophy?

No ill will intended, just curious...

DBW- You might find this site/article interesting and informative.

nailingit — July 18, 2012 at 1:30 p.m. ( | suggest removal

MRD so your saying we had 38% unemployement..Those numbers might be off a bit.. As for older workers, seniors and such I have a friend, mid 50's and says why can't I get a $25 an hour job. So I asked her what type of degree she had, she said none, didn't finish high school.. Then I asked her what her job skills were, she mentioned this and that.. So as an employer looking for someone with those skills she was only qualified for min to a little more an hr job..
It's all stale comments MRD.. No one is touting Disabled folks don't need help.. Many are getting assistance "Gov't" many retired folks didn't save for retirement to live similar as to they were prior to retiring. Poor planning and forsight is a common problem today for many retirees and the younger generation. It's hard for my kids to save money because they don't understand what can loom over the horizon...There does need to be a safety net out there. But I'm sorry I see way too many people that "I KNOW" that don't want to take a job that was paying less than what they were earning previously so they take unemployment hile there spouse is working and there just getting bye but continue to out spend there earnings and savings... Or they don't want to take that job in Oregon bevause they have to pay Or taxes , but you know what it would be better than Unemployment byt thousands of dollars.

My thought on some folks taking Unemployment bennies to the extreme and not wanting to work for less than they were making before or just coming into a business to put down on there unemployment card.. There are jobs out here if your willing to work. My daughter is working part time this summer between college school years making over 25hr...And her job is very specified it is funny how you can come about these... And it's only PT....The tree has fruit but can't be bruised or it's not edible, what do you do to pick it correctly... Thats what many among us can't figure out...

vanwadreamer — July 18, 2012 at 1:31 p.m. ( | suggest removal

it wasn't 38% unemployment, it was 38% of the people of working age weren't working for some reason or another. I think the stated unemployment rate in 2004 was quite low-about 5%.

mrd — July 18, 2012 at 1:40 p.m. ( | suggest removal

vanwa- I appreciate your comments. There will always be a minority of people who abuse the system. From collecting unemployment to not paying their taxes.

Sometimes a bruised piece of fruit has value. Just take care peeling it. :)

nailingit — July 18, 2012 at 2:17 p.m. ( | suggest removal


soapbox4u — July 18, 2012 at 2:28 p.m. ( | suggest removal

soapbox4u — July 18, 2012 at 2:35 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Finally the House is working on something. Sounds meaningful/purposeful.

How about ending employer discrimination/screening for job applicants who test positive? At least have level requirements/standards.

Time to legalize across the board. Recreational/Medical/Whatever. Time for big bro to sit in the back seat and give up some of their $$$ they receive for ruining lives, and put the public first.

Obama! Get a clue! Politically viable or not, pull it up for the USA.

We could call it the Toke Joke Act

**Truth In Trials Act, Medical Marijuana Protection Bill, Proposed By Bipartisan Group Of Lawmakers**

A bipartisan group of House lawmakers introduced a bill this week designed to create enhanced legal protections for valid medical marijuana patients prosecuted due to conflicting state and federal laws regarding the legality of the substance.

nailingit — July 18, 2012 at 2:37 p.m. ( | suggest removal

crazytrain — July 18, 2012 at 11:54 a.m.

I'm not entirely sure you actually read those stories. We often see requests for donations in lieu of gifts, and in the words of one of your sources, "legal" describes at least one of your claims.

And at least one of your claims doesn't hold water.

I get it that you don't like President Obama, or maybe it is just Democrats in general. But if you want to argue substantively about the issues, calling up sources that are - shall we say - mouthpieces for rw talking points isn't the way to do it.

mr_basil_seal — July 18, 2012 at 2:45 p.m. ( | suggest removal

*If it was illegal for Al Gore to take donations from others countries why isn't it illegal for Obama? Oh I know, (insert race card).*

crazytrain — July 18, 2012 at 3:26 p.m.

Your own source says "legal".....

"(insert race card)."


And we note that not only do you not bring anything substantive, but fully half of your reply is some weak beer attempt at a personal attack.

Good to see what constitutes quality dialogue amongst the rw.

mr_basil_seal — July 18, 2012 at 3:38 p.m. ( | suggest removal

The fundraiser in China was for a group called Americans Abroad. I kinda doubt any Chinese were throwing yuans Obama's way.

mrd — July 18, 2012 at 3:40 p.m. ( | suggest removal

I see that Jenny McCarthy's fellow thinkers have come out in force.

mr_basil_seal — July 18, 2012 at 3:40 p.m. ( | suggest removal

*Sweetie, Notice I asked..why isn't it illegal for Obama?*

See mrd's response — July 18, 2012 at 3:40 p.m.

And at least one of your sources says the same thing; that is why I questioned if you'd actually read your sources.

*Wrong my sweet, not RW*

Oh, what you posted isn't a rw talking point?

mr_basil_seal — July 18, 2012 at 3:52 p.m. ( | suggest removal

#On Global Warming, Republicans Burying Their Heads in the Dried-Up Soil

By Matthew Rothschild, July 17, 2012

It’s over 100 again in Wisconsin, and we’ve been way above normal every single day this month, and we’ve barely gotten a drop of rain in six weeks.

We’re not alone. Most of the country is facing the worst drought in 56 years. And yet, on the issue of global warming, the Republicans still have their heads in the dried-up soil.

On Friday, two leading Democratic House members on the Energy and Commerce Committee, Henry Waxman and Bobby Rush, wrote a letter to their Republican counterparts that began this way:

“We are writing for the fifteenth time to urge you to hold a hearing on the dangers of climate change,” Waxman and Rush said. “Specifically, we request that you hold a hearing on the recent wildfires and extreme weather events the United States has experienced and the role global climate change played in these events.”

They said that their Republican counterparts “have not responded to any of our letters.”

They rightly chided the Republicans for being know-nothings: “Willful ignorance of the science,” they said, “is irresponsible and it is dangerous.” And they quoted several leading scientists, including Michael Oppenheimer of Princeton, who said: “What we’re seeing really is a window into what global warming really looks like.”

Waxman and Rush also noted the obstructionism by the House not only on holding hearings but on substantive matters, as well.

“In total, the House has voted 37 times this year to overturn EPA’s scientific findings that climate change endangers health and the environment, to stop regulations to reduce carbon emissions, to prevent the United States from participating in international negotiations, and even to cut funding for basic climate science,” they wrote. “This is a shameful record.”

mr_basil_seal — July 18, 2012 at 3:58 p.m. ( | suggest removal

If someone would apply some very basic physics they would conclude that global warming could not cause drought, it would cause just the opposite. Is this possibly the reason that physicists were excluded from the global warming debate?

Last year the alarmists claimed that too much rain was proof of global warming, this year they claim that not enough is proof of global warming, next year average rainfall may be proof of global warming.

frobert — July 18, 2012 at 4:07 p.m. ( | suggest removal

June Corn-Belt PDSI
by Stuart Staniford

The relationship to climate change is clearly complicated by the fact that the data show a generally upward trend (ie wetter): that linear trend is 1.1/century, with a standard error of 0.4 - a statistically significant result. This is consistent with the fact that the US midwest is generally trending wet in the global PDSI trend map, despite the fact that most of the planet is drying:

Whether this wetter trend continues or not is a pretty critical question for global food production. So it will be very interesting to watch this year's drought.

mr_basil_seal — July 18, 2012 at 4:22 p.m. ( | suggest removal

fro and mr_basil: Excuse the change-of-topic.

The Clark County jail inmate who died during restraint in February was mentally ill. So sad for his family. So sad that our jails are not equipped for patients like this.

I will bet my retirement (not much anymore) that the jail will use the "excited delirium" defense. Very controversial and puts the blame on the victim.

I had quite the argument with a good neighbor, a police officer, about this as a defense. Read about it from NPR:

basil, fro: carry on. Sorry for the commercial break....

manthou — July 18, 2012 at 4:53 p.m. ( | suggest removal

At 4:07 p.m. on July 18, 2012, frobert claimed,"*Is this possibly the reason that physicists were excluded from the global warming debate?*"

Who did this 'excluding'?

Has this 'excluding' been going on for the last 100 + years?

Where is the evidence of this 'excluding'?




mr_basil_seal — July 18, 2012 at 5:03 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Frobert, I believe the number one issue in the "alarmists' claims" is that they are referring to the situation as "global warming." The issue is "climate change." Included in the issue of climate change is the fact that weather extremes globally are on the increase...hence the heavy rainfall, flooding and heavy snows, followed by years of drought. Record lows as well as record highs. Ocean levels are rising and rainforests/prairies are diminishing.

Looking at the world's find Antarctica's diminishing yet in the northern Cascades and Alaska, you find record snow fall.

This year, the Columbia River has seen higher than average water levels yet the Mississippi water levels are so low that even marinas are closed due to the inability to move pleasure boats.

You see Frobert, Climate Change is just that. It is a naturally-occurring phenomenon...but when you combine the issues of weather extremes and ever-changing landscape of the planet, that is what I believe has the scientists concerned.

goldenoldie — July 18, 2012 at 5:18 p.m. ( | suggest removal

*Whether this wetter trend continues or not is a pretty critical question for global food production. So it will be very interesting to watch this year's drought.*

mr_basil_seal — July 18, 2012 at 4:22 p.m.

All the more reason why I've been posting the information about the states experiencing this drought. Texas alone saw the worst single-year drought in it's history last year and are still suffering through the drought. Nebraska's State Department of Natural Resources have ordered Nebraska farmers who receive irrigation water through surface watering to halt crop irrigation because of the water level drop in the rivers running through the state.'s bad. It's getting really, really bad for the Corn Belt.

goldenoldie — July 18, 2012 at 5:29 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Apparently Northeast Brazil and Argentina have experienced a severe drought during their growing season...corn, cotton and soy as well as livestock destroyed...26 to 30% loss in corn and soy alone.

goldenoldie — July 18, 2012 at 5:40 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Worth noting that weather was on the IPCC radar in the third and fourth reports.

No surprises; other than earlier than some projections expected.

mr_basil_seal — July 18, 2012 at 5:47 p.m. ( | suggest removal

We can add Russia/Kazakhstan as well as East Africa and Eastern Canada to the list of drought-stricken regions, too.

A drought in Romania has forced their hydropower generator to reduce electricity supplies to 50% due to low water levels.

SW China (Yunnan Province) is into it's 3rd consecutive year of drought.

On the flip side of the coin...

Australia has ended it's decade-long drought.

goldenoldie — July 18, 2012 at 5:53 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Basil, wouldn't that concern the scientists if the weather projections were coming sooner than expected? And if they are more frequent??? It definitely has my attention.

goldenoldie — July 18, 2012 at 5:55 p.m. ( | suggest removal

An excellent article on KATU's weather blog about global warming entitled "Global Warming Tied to Risks of Weather Extremes."

The best quote I've seen yet is by Mr. Tom Peterson (no, not Gloria too...a different Tom Peterson) with NOAA when he states in a briefing to reporters -

"Scientists can't blame any single weather event on global warming, but they can assess how climate change has altered the odds of such events happening."

goldenoldie — July 18, 2012 at 6:04 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Climate change. Yet another area in which Romney has changed his tune...

nailingit — July 18, 2012 at 6:05 p.m. ( | suggest removal

**Democrat Markey says massive ice break makes case for climate change action** By Ben Geman - 07/18/12 10:51 AM ET

“When Republicans like Mitt Romney reject the science surrounding climate change, and block the solutions to this grave challenge, they become complicit in the acceleration and intensification of extreme weather events around the world and here in America,” added Markey.
An ice chunk twice the size of Manhattan has broken free from Greenland’s Petermann glacier, according to The Associated Press.

Romney says he would seek to strip the Environmental Protection Agency’s power to regulate greenhouse gas emissions, and on the stump has appeared to distance himself from the widely held scientific view that humans are playing a key role in causing global warming.

nailingit — July 18, 2012 at 6:22 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Nail - thanks for the two links from yesterday, I just got a chance to read them. Hilarious! The lunacy...

I expect a full bakery report. I am going there Saturday morning myself. We might need to mention Roger so he can get free referral pretzels or something.

luvithere — July 18, 2012 at 7:25 p.m. ( | suggest removal

"Nobel Prize-winning physicist Ivar Giaever resigned as a Fellow from the American Physical Society Tuesday, condemning the group's official stand on global warming."

In his resignation from the APS Giaever wrote

"In the APS, it is ok to discuss whether the mass of the proton changes over time and how a multi-universe behaves, but the evidence of global warming is incontrovertible?"

I guess physicists are not excluded as long as they agree with the pseudoscience of global warming hysteria.

frobert — July 18, 2012 at 8:02 p.m. ( | suggest removal

"pseudoscience"??? I agree, to an extent, we're in an interglacial period but....when the sea levels swamp the US coast, what will these folks say then? OOPS! Guess we missed something. Maybe err on the side of caution, huh? However, to deny man-made chit isn't speeding up global warming is just plain silly, only the degree is arguable. While most of the scientific community agrees the production of greenhouse gases ups the mean temps globally, how does one argue with that? Deny all science? Kinda like the earth is flat?

mrd — July 18, 2012 at 8:40 p.m. ( | suggest removal

I suppose I didn't make it clear. I am not on here saying that everyone collecting assistance is abusing the system. Most do have a genuine need, and are most likely actively pursuing work to get off the welfare rolls. Can we all agree on that?

I hope we can also agree that there are people abusing the system. There are those who will not make an attempt to find work because they get that regular check from the state. I am saying that if there is work available, even just seasonal, then they should have to make an attempt. If you arent willing to take that sort of work, you lose benefits. If the work doesnt provide enough to support your family, then you can recieve partial assistance.

I have heard from people out of work (to include members of my own family) "I won't work there". Be it fast food, retail at the mall, or harvesting the fields. Honestly, how many on here would be willing to go pick berries in La Center if you were out of work. (More honesty to yourself than to me).

Don't get me wrong, there are problems at the other end as well. Those making more are constantly finding loopholes to pay less taxes. They are finding ways to maximize their own bottom line. Some of the slickest schemes involve government contracts.
Don't forget my previous post of Mr. Bidens Social Security.

Bottom line-
Things are broke at both ends. Those of us in the middle, we who are working and just getting by, are the ones feeling it the most.

To clarify, no I am not a RP supporter. I am not a Libertarian. Yes I am against Socialism. And langenthal, I don't see where my mother's age is even relevant.

The proposal of additional taxes on the rich is an attempt to legislate the wealthy out of prosperity. This is in part to provide "assistance" to those in poverty, to legislate the poor into prosperity. While I do not have an issue to giving to charity, my personal causes are Alzheimers, Autism, and the USO, I also like to give as a matter of my own choice. I also like to think that I will be able to enjoy the things which I have worked to obtain.
Call me selfish.

danabwoodley — July 18, 2012 at 9:09 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Why shouldn't Joe Biden get his social security, like everyone else his age can? There are no restrictions on how much you can work and draw social security once you hit your full retirement age. He is just paying into the system as he continues to work. I know several people who are doing that well beyond 70.

There are also great social security maximizing strategies that benefit married couples: file and suspend and restricted benefit. Google those terms if you want to know more.

I don't begrudge Joe Biden his SS check. I intend to take mine and use it well.

manthou — July 18, 2012 at 9:33 p.m. ( | suggest removal

mrd — July 18, 2012 at 8:40 p.m.

The term "pseudoscience" as I used it came from Nobel laureate Ivar Giaever, on that issue I will defer to his brilliance.

Templates are rising, they were rising prior to use of fossil fuels and they will continue to rise, the west cost of Florida has moved 100 miles in the last 12,000 years and sea level in general has risen 300 feet in the past 70,000 years. Now all of a sudden when according to physicists the temperature has been surprisingly stable over the past 150 years, we are expected to believe that every weather anomaly is attributed to man made global warming. Acceptance of politically driven global warming hysteria is denial of science. Science needs to be free to research and hypothesize without government intervention and condemnation.

With the current mindset how long will it be before lawmakers realize that lifting all regulations on emissions that restrict carbon solids (soot) would be beneficial in reducing carbon dioxide? Carbon solids really do kill people and because of fake greenhouse gas claims these carcinogenic contaminates are falling by the wayside.

frobert — July 18, 2012 at 9:35 p.m. ( | suggest removal

If your complaint about physicists being "excluded" hinges on Ivar Giaever, you might want to thing about the basic fact that it isn't that he's a physicist, but that Ivar Giaever "...has not published any work in the area of climate science."

"According to Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute, the University of Oslo, and Google Scholar, **Ivar Giaever has not published any work in the area of climate science**. Giaever's climate science resume is limited to serving on a climate change discussion panel at the 51st convention of Nobel laureates in physics, chemistry, physiology and medicine. At the convention, Giaever stated he is skeptical of the importance of the issue of global warming."

Remember that pesky study I posted? 97% of those with expertise agree on the IPCC findings. And the 3% that don't tend to not have a similar level of expertise.

You go to a dentist because of the expertise; you go the the mechanic because of the expertise; you go to the barber because of the expertise;

mr_basil_seal — July 18, 2012 at 9:36 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Anyone following the Twitter controversy caused by one of Rob McKenna's young policy advisors? The Stranger broke the story and the Seattle Times and PI were all over it.

She resigned, saving McKenna the trouble of angering his base by having to fire her. He knows that many of his constituents don't think she did anything wrong.

The Seattle Times endorsed him, but came out with an editorial calling for the aide's firing.

She made disparaging, stupid tweets against Asians and old people. Youthful stupidity cost her a chance to move to Olympia if he wins. :(

Watch what you post online. It is the gift that keeps on giving.

manthou — July 18, 2012 at 9:40 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Sorry should have been "temperatures"

frobert — July 18, 2012 at 9:41 p.m. ( | suggest removal

danabwoodley — July 18, 2012 at 9:09 p.m.

Your original argument was about those you claim 'abuse the system' and that something needs be done. The implication was that it is a large percentage of those on assistance.

*Well if wanting people who are able bodied to make an effort to take care of themselves and not to be so dependent on public assistance (read tax money) is a right wing talking point, then fine, I will shout to the far left througha bull horn.* danabwoodley — July 14, 2012 at 8:47 p.m.

Which you haven't bothered to support.

Give us a number. Show us how much we'd save by taking those "able bodied" off the roles.

mr_basil_seal — July 18, 2012 at 9:42 p.m. ( | suggest removal

The proposal of additional taxes on the rich is an attempt to legislate the wealthy out of prosperity.

danabwoodley — July 18, 2012 at 9:09 p.m.

Look up the tax rates in the 50's

"All these estimates show that taxes on the rich are the lowest they have been in half a century. But what about before 1960? Well, we know that the top marginal tax rate was even higher in the 40s and 50s than in the 60s; and it was very high by modern standards through much of the 30s too.

So I think it’s safe to say that taxes on the rich are currently lower than they have been for not 50 but 80 years. And if Mitt Romney gets his way, we’ll bring those taxes down to levels not seen since Calvin Coolidge."

mr_basil_seal — July 18, 2012 at 9:47 p.m. ( | suggest removal

mr_basil_seal — July 18, 2012 at 9:36 p.m.

When it comes to changes in temperature, the only scientists with expertise are the physicists. The IPCC is denying science in taking as fact, the theories of these others. The physicists are pretty divided on the issue of global warming. When you take into account that those who oppose the popular hype are denied funding, I am guessing that most physicist believe that global warming is mostly due to natural sources.

frobert — July 18, 2012 at 9:47 p.m. ( | suggest removal

"according to physicists the temperature has been surprisingly stable over the past 150 years,"


" Acceptance of politically driven global warming hysteria is denial of science."


"lifting all regulations on emissions that restrict carbon solids (soot) would be beneficial in reducing carbon dioxide?"

Source? Something with some science behind it, of course.

" fake greenhouse gas claims"

Tell us about that. Really, I want to see what you used to inform your thinking on these " fake greenhouse gas claims".

Don't rush, I'll check back Monday or Tuesday. Spew forth.

Don't forget your references........

mr_basil_seal — July 18, 2012 at 9:52 p.m. ( | suggest removal

" those who oppose the popular hype are denied funding, "

You can, of course, bring forward names and supporting proof....

"I am guessing that most physicist believe that global warming is mostly due to natural sources."

"guessing", well that is a bit weak. No proof? No surveys? No list of physicists with expertise in the area of climate science who "believe that global warming is mostly due to natural sources."?

The good news for you; 5 days without me asking you about how your research is going.

The bad news; trying to find the evidence to back up your claims.

mr_basil_seal — July 18, 2012 at 9:58 p.m. ( | suggest removal

" The IPCC is denying science in taking as fact, the theories of these others. "

You are digging yourself a deeper hole; maybe instead of pronouncements, you'd be better off looking at what you use to inform your thinking.

mr_basil_seal — July 18, 2012 at 10 p.m. ( | suggest removal


What is perfectly clear is if climate change "science" was truly scientific in nature and not political, the supporters would not be using terms like "denier" for people that disagreed. Real science is all about questioning established beliefs. I have never heard Hawkins or Salk insult anyone who disagrees with them.

frobert — July 18, 2012 at 10:35 p.m. ( | suggest removal

danabwoodley — July 18, 2012 at 9:09 p.m、

Why shouldn't Joe Biden get his social security, like everyone else his age can? There are no restrictions on how much you can work and draw social security once you hit your full retirement age. He is just paying into the system as he continues to work. I know several people who are doing that well beyond 70.

That is an excellent reply by Manthou. manthou — July 18, 2012 at 9:33 p.m.

Your mother hasn't reached full retirement age, right?

langenthal — July 18, 2012 at 10:37 p.m. ( | suggest removal

wow. placed picked up **BIG TIME**

DeeLittle — July 18, 2012 at 10:41 p.m. ( | suggest removal

On the subject of Social Security, Disability and Unemployment Insurance, what many seem to forget is this is not the governments money that they are "giving" to people. These are government run programs that we are forced to take part in. If I receive a check from one of these programs it is my money not the governments.

frobert — July 18, 2012 at 10:46 p.m. ( | suggest removal

frobert — July 18, 2012 at 10:35 p.m.

Let us know when you've found what you consider the science that supports your claims.

All we've seen so far is you denying that the well established science is valid.

With no alternative explanation that fits to the current observations.

Or the observations for the past 100+ years.

From scientists working in many fields.

From observations from every continent on Earth.

From scientists from virtually every continent.

From scientists living under a range of governments.

Science agreed to by every major scientific organization.

And all you bring is a denial of that science.

mr_basil_seal — July 18, 2012 at 10:50 p.m. ( | suggest removal

frobert — July 18, 2012 at 10:46 p.m.

Please explain your understanding of how Unemployment Insurance works.

langenthal — July 18, 2012 at 10:55 p.m. ( | suggest removal

langenthal — July 18, 2012 at 10:55 p.m.

Based on the employee's wages the employer pays SUTA and FUTA, because it is based on the employee's wages it is part of their compensation package. These funds support government controlled insurance for unemployment.

frobert — July 18, 2012 at 11:01 p.m. ( | suggest removal

langenthal — July 18, 2012 at 10:55 p.m.

It has been at least 20 years since I have worked in an accounting office, if my information is not up to date feel free to correct my facts. My main point is that just because the government forces employers to send them that portion of the employee's compensation before the employee sees it, does not mean the employee did not earn it.

frobert — July 18, 2012 at 11:05 p.m. ( | suggest removal

mr_basil_seal — July 18, 2012 at 10:50 p.m.

Again, questioning established norms is science, condemning anyone who disagrees, is anti-science. Using your reasoning, the world would still be considered flat.

frobert — July 18, 2012 at 11:15 p.m. ( | suggest removal


I will gladly admit that I have found no study that gives a figure to the number of people that are abusing the public assistance system. However, I do know there are those that do. How do I know? Some are more than willing to admit to their collection of aid when they are capable of working. I have spoken with some, and witnessed others. Am I the only one to have ever noticed the person in the grocery store paying for their purchase with food stamps while talking on the decked out smartphone? I know the phone itself is not exactly a frugal purchase, but you also have the monthly cost for your service. How is that being paid for? Some may tell me it's none of my business, but if this person is getting assistance funded by taxes, don't the taxpayers have a right to know?

Maybe I am going overboard in some eyes, but I am a firm believer that one person abusing this system is too many.

And since there is no figure of how many are out there mooching, I cannot give you a figure of how much can be saved in cracking down on them. But wouldn't it be nice to have the savings to be spent elsewhere? Education perhaps?

And on the same topic, next question. Why is it a bad thing to require drug testing in order to recieve assistance? If you are going to recieve tax dollars to help you, don't the taxpayers have a right for the assurance it isn't being used for illegal items? If you aren't doing these illegal things, why would you have a problem with providing a sample?

danabwoodley — July 19, 2012 at 12:03 a.m. ( | suggest removal

So I shouldn't worry about Mr. Biden recieving Social Security. Let's look at this.

Mr. Biden recieved his law degree and began practicing in 1969. He held local office from 1971 until 1973. He began serving as a US Senator in 1973.

So, according to [42 U.S.C. 410], members of the Congress (both houses), and the Vice President (his current position) are exempt from paying in to the Social Security system.

So that leaves the question of how much did Mr. Biden contribute in his nearly 70 years on this earth?

In light of his income from other sources, and that I am a payer into the system, I think I deserve some answers to this.

danabwoodley — July 19, 2012 at 12:13 a.m. ( | suggest removal

The other part of the issue I raised is when people refuse work. I say again, look at the classifieds in this publication. There are jobs out there. I know that not everyone will qualify for all the positions, but I am sure you can find something you can qualify for. Even if it is only part time, or temporary until you can get the position for which you are trained.

This ties into the immigration issue. Every year, people come from other countries for seasonal work in the US. Farm work at harvest time is the most often cited. It is said that these immigrant workers (most of which come to the States legally, I will add) come to do the work that American won't do.

Why will Americans NOT take this work? I know this doesn't apply to ALL Americans, but apparently enough Americans that the immigrants are required to get the crop harvested.

This is an example of what I mean by "too good" to do that kind of work.

danabwoodley — July 19, 2012 at 12:31 a.m. ( | suggest removal

OK, unemployment is paid for by the employer to the insurance provider (government).

My question is, the employee doesn't see a deduction in his pay to cover this, so this expense is from the employer's bottom line. So who does actually pay this?

That is right my friend, the consumer. The employer will charge a bit more for the product/service they offer to cover the cost of what they pay for this unemployment coverage. Kind of like taxes, huh?

So does that mean Government agencies pay for this coverage for their employees? I haven't found the answer to this question.

And there are more programs that provide assistance from the government other than unemployment. Food Stamps for example. Refer to my previous posts.

danabwoodley — July 19, 2012 at 1:17 a.m. ( | suggest removal

frobert ---

Alaska, New Jersey, and Pennsylvania are the only states that require an employee contribution to Unemployment Insurance.

langenthal — July 19, 2012 at 1:19 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Current US Drought Monitor Reports (courtesy of the Weather Channel) 87.5% of the US is abnormally dry and that 42.23% of the contiguous states are experiencing a severe drought or worse:

Excellent data resource:

If you're curious as to how this drought will affect you, check out the link on the weather channel page in the "Most Popular" column.

goldenoldie — July 19, 2012 at 6:58 a.m. ( | suggest removal

To Mr_Basil_Seal and Frobert...

It is unfortunate that the science of global climate and weather changes over the centuries has led many to be skeptical of conclusions brought upon by those educated in the sciences...

...but the fact of the matter is that some will profit from the issue (as widely reported about a prior vice president). and others are suffering because of the extremes in weather. Whatever you call it and whatever you believe, it is now beginning to affect the dinner tables around the world and is hitting closer to home more quickly than you think. Last year's devastating drought in Texas has driven the price of beef higher across the nation and the impact is still growing, thanks to the current drought conditions. Yes, Oregon and Washington have better conditions (exception being southeastern Oregon), but the two states are highly incapable of providing beef for the entire nation...for the world in fact since a good chunk of that is exported to other nations. Expect the prices to increase and quantities to decrease.

Another impact which I believe has been overlooked is the temporary summer jobs in the processing plants. With crops and livestock at risk, hiring of summer employment will be reduced which will in turn affect the nation's employment numbers. Families across the nation have depended upon the summer employment just to get through another year.


The irony of it all is how over the past two years, I'd been urging folks to pinch pennies, to cook from scratch and to stock up on necessities...plant more and grow more - even those of you in apartments could utilize community gardens OR farm co-ops...even urged folks with their own homes in the county to think about urban farming...growing a couple of layer hens for eggs...and I openly thanked the "Loudmouth" Glenn Beck (and still do) for highly publicizing the dire need for everyone to prepare. Glad I'm not Glenn Beck. He's been chastised for warning others...and how DARE I mention *his* name. He was even referred to as a fear monger out for a quick buck.

Boy...I'd love to see photos of *his* pantry about now!

And to those of you who chastise churches all the time on here...ever notice the vegetable gardens some are sprouting in their own green spaces??? They are helping to feed those in need in their own congregations...those who don't have the space. They too have urged the people to prepare for hard times. They are providing aide to the local homeless shelters and food banks. They are providing food and aide to the local missions to feed those who need a helping hand. Neighbors helping neighbors.

Makes you wonder what they knew was coming, huh.

goldenoldie — July 19, 2012 at 7:17 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Out of curiosity...

How many of you have added a couple of extra cans or frozen packs of corn to your pantry for the year??? How many of you have discovered how much more affordable it is to make your meals from scratch rather than buying prepackaged?

Those convenient prepackaged products include ingredients like "corn oil," "soy lecithin," "sorghum," "partially-hydrogenated soybean oil," "wheat gluten" and a host of other products associated with the Corn Belt production. It might be a good idea to start cooking more from scratch with fresh products from the local farms and grocers as those packaged items are going to become quite expensive by year's end.

goldenoldie — July 19, 2012 at 7:22 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Ah yes...for those sweet tooth folks out there...another few corn products...High Fructose CORN syrup (bleaghhh!!!), corn sugar(still bad stuff added to our food for flavor), corn syrup, corn starch, corn flour, corn meal, grits, polenta and Masa...

Watch the prices go up.

goldenoldie — July 19, 2012 at 7:28 a.m. ( | suggest removal

langenthal — July 19, 2012 at 1:19 a.m.

When an employer pays for health insurance, it is part of the employee's earnings, when they pay the employer's portion of Social Security, it is part of the employee's earnings. Why would unemployment payments be any different? Just because the employer is forced to pay part of the employee's pay to the government before the employee sees it does not mean they didn't earn it.

frobert — July 19, 2012 at 7:49 a.m. ( | suggest removal


I read somewhere that an economist from SMU stated 3/4 of the "basket items" (not real sure what that meant) in a typical shopping cart would be affected by corn prices.

mrd — July 19, 2012 at 7:58 a.m. ( | suggest removal

I see my federal taxes taken from my pay. I see my Social Security taken from my pay. I see medicare taken from my pay. I see my life insurance taken from my pay. Previous work I saw my health coverage taken out of my pay.

I have never seen unemployment insurance deducted from my pay. No employer I have ever had (true the number is limited) has ever explained that part of my compensation would include unemployment insurance coverage. So can I sue for nondisclosure?

Wait, one employer has retired, the other has gone out of business (I could go after the parent company I guess, in Japan).

danabwoodley — July 19, 2012 at 8 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Not trying to downplay the importance of science, but I would like to point out something:

In the study of climate change, much like meteorology, and coming up with a due date for a woman to give birth:
Yes, they have a variety of charts, and tools to collect data, observe progress of systems, and lot of historical data and knowledge to help them.
However, in the end, they are only guessing.

You will not actually know, with 100% certainty, what will happen, until it does happen.

danabwoodley — July 19, 2012 at 8:12 a.m. ( | suggest removal

danabwoodley — July 19, 2012 at 8 a.m.

You only see half of your Social Security and medicaid deductions, the other half is still paid based on your wages therefore part of your compensation. Many large employers now issue a yearly total compensation statement that does include unemployment insurance payments.

frobert — July 19, 2012 at 8:18 a.m. ( | suggest removal


Are you an employer? Are you an accountant? Or have you been?

Can you give me a source where I can find this info?

I know that I am one of the worst on here when it comes to providing sources, but when I have new information presented to me, I want to be able to find it for myself. One thing I have learned from my current job, if you cannot find it in black and white, it doesn't exist.

danabwoodley — July 19, 2012 at 8:25 a.m. ( | suggest removal

danabwoodley — July 19, 2012 at 8:25 a.m.

Source for what information? that unemployment is based on wages? That the employer only deducts half of SS and Medicare tax? That some employers provide total compensation statements?

Yes I have been an employer in the past, No I am not an accountant, but I have spent some time working in the accounting office of a national corporation and in doing so have picked up some basic information.

frobert — July 19, 2012 at 8:37 a.m. ( | suggest removal


The problem is perception, not facts. Small business owners seem to think of this compensation as their money, corporate entities seem to think of it as the employee's money, and employees don't tend to think about it at all. I think everyone can agree on the facts, the money is based on the employee's wages, the money is paid directly to the government, if the employee's output does not exceed the total outlay for that employee, they should not be employed. Based on these facts, I would conclude that it is part of the employee's compensation.

frobert — July 19, 2012 at 8:43 a.m. ( | suggest removal

So what you are saying is that is how you percieve it? It isn't hard, stead fast, set in stone rule?

So now we have the big mystery. Who pays for the unemployment coverage?

So where is my statement from this insurance provider explaining my coverage and limitations? I get that for my health, dental, auto, and life coverage.

danabwoodley — July 19, 2012 at 8:48 a.m. ( | suggest removal

danabwoodley — July 19, 2012 at 8:48 a.m.

No big mystery, the employer is forced to pay on behalf of the employee, the same as workers compensation and half of Social Security.

Your statement from the insurance provider, can be accessed from whatever state administers your unemployment insurance.

frobert — July 19, 2012 at 8:54 a.m. ( | suggest removal

OK, so the employer pays. Which means it is paid by the consumer. Good/service will be priced accordingly to cover the cost.

danabwoodley — July 19, 2012 at 8:57 a.m. ( | suggest removal

danabwoodley — July 19, 2012 at 8:57 a.m.

The employer is forced to pay on behalf of the employee, the employee is the consumer, subject to the limitations of state and federal law. If your employer pays your health insurance, you are the consumer.

frobert — July 19, 2012 at 9:02 a.m. ( | suggest removal

I don't mean the consumer in who recieves the coverage. I mean the consumer that pays for the product/service that the employer produces as the focus of the business they operate.

danabwoodley — July 19, 2012 at 9:07 a.m. ( | suggest removal

danabwoodley ---

# In the majority of States, benefit funding is based solely on a tax imposed on employers. (Three (3) States require minimal employee contributions.)

langenthal — July 19, 2012 at 9:15 a.m. ( | suggest removal

langenthal — July 19, 2012 at 9:15 a.m.

The employee's total compensation includes everything it costs to employ them. No amount of "allycat" font will change that.

frobert — July 19, 2012 at 9:23 a.m. ( | suggest removal

fro: Give up, brother. You might as well be arguing with a rock. :)

I have finally found MY fiscaltiger after blissfully participating here for a couple of years now.


manthou — July 19, 2012 at 9:26 a.m. ( | suggest removal

My error above: I thought fro was arguing with danabwoodley.
langenthal: I love ya.

dana: don't know why you make my blood pressure rise, but you are the first Forum member ever to do so.


Funny thing, I agree with some of what you have to say, just wish you would stop beating us over the head with it.

I'm taking a break.

manthou — July 19, 2012 at 9:31 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Manthou ---

I am so sorry for the large font. I haven't touched any settings.

My heart fell when I read your post and saw that you might link me with fiscaltiger or dbwoodley, let alone frobert. Thanks for seeing I was just sending a source to danabwoodley and frobert. It is Department of Labor site so they can interpret as they choose. I think danabwoodley is looking for pen pals. It's not difficult to find the information. I doubt his network filters out Department of Labor.

If anyone knows how I can correct the font/bold, please let me know.

langenthal — July 19, 2012 at 10:14 a.m. ( | suggest removal

*and I openly thanked the "Loudmouth" Glenn Beck (and still do) for highly publicizing the dire need for everyone to prepare. Glad I'm not Glenn Beck. He's been chastised for warning others...and how DARE I mention his name. He was even referred to as a fear monger out for a quick buck.

Boy...I'd love to see photos of his pantry about now!*

In my continuing quest to fulfill others dreams, :)) here ya go, go. Some pics of Beck's 4 Million plus $$$$$ secluded gated mansion. No pantry pics, but one can imagine he's not all that worried about the rising cost of food.

His faithful has taken care of that.

I wonder if his help is documented?!?

nailingit — July 19, 2012 at 12:30 p.m. ( | suggest removal

luvit- 4 out of 5 stars for the German Bakery. I just had Milk roll brotchen/dutch gouda/ham sandwich with gherkin on the side. Excellent! The selection is limited and prices are a bit high, but outside of that .... total yum! Cheese is incredible. They didn't have any of the German brand deli ham so stopped at Safeway to finish. Highly recommended and will return.

Even got my 'kids' a Milka Bar! Total blast from the recent past.

nailingit — July 19, 2012 at 12:40 p.m. ( | suggest removal

*I'm taking a break. manthou* — July 19, 2012 at 9:31 a.m.

Please don't it make very long, your comments are treasured amongst forum dwellers!

Like, an hour or so? :)

nailingit — July 19, 2012 at 12:47 p.m. ( | suggest removal

**Greg Peterson, Utah GOP Fundraiser, Arrested, Charged With Raping 4 Women**

A Utah man tied to the state's Republican party has been arrested on charges that he raped four women.

Greg Peterson, 37, was booked Wednesday on 23 felony counts, including rape and kidnapping. Two of the alleged victims claim the incidents took place at Peterson's cabin, where he has hosted a number of fundraisers featuring Utah's most prominent politicians. Peterson's bail has been set at $750,000.

The Salt Lake Tribune reports:

Charging documents allege sexual assaults against four women in Salt Lake County beginning March 26, 2011. In the first case, the documents allege, Peterson met a woman at a church function and she agreed to go to a movie with him.
But instead of going to a theater, the papers allege, Peterson told the woman he had a gun and took her to his cabin in Heber. The documents allege he sexually assaulted the woman while she said no and hit her when she did not do as he wished. Peterson drove the woman back to her vehicle the next morning.

**Another case involves a woman who claims she and Peterson met on an online dating site.** Utah's KSL reports:

Peterson allegedly held the girl hostage at his cabin overnight and sexually assaulted her. The next day, he took her to his mother's house in Lewiston, Cache County, where she was held hostage for two days and repeatedly assaulted, according to court documents.
Two other women allege that Peterson sexually assaulted them at their residences following dates coordinated online.

The rape and kidnapping charges are first-degree felonies that could carry life sentences.

According to the Tribune, Peterson has held an annual Rocky Mountain Conservatives Convention and BBQ for the past few years at the cabin where two of the incidents allegedly took place.

Utah political blogger Michael Jolley reports that the 2011 event was well-attended by political luminaries from around the Beehive State. **GOP Rep. Jason Chaffetz, GOP Sens. Orrin Hatch and Mike Lee, as well Republican Gov. Gary Herbert** all made speeches at the gathering.

**Another case involves a woman who claims she and Peterson met on an online dating site.**

Christian Mingle? Mormon Mingle? Sounds pretty sick. If guilty he should never see the light of day.

nailingit — July 19, 2012 at 1:59 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Hell no-we don't need no sticking health care reform.

From a book comparing quality of life of the 30 countries belonging to the Organization for Economic Co-operation and Development:

The book looks at eight indicators each in seven categories, ranking counties in order along with precise figures for how they score. It also divides them into first, second and third divisions (in sets of 10), which comes in handy for gauging overall performance. The seven categories are: health, family, education, income and leisure, freedom and democracy, public order and safety, and generosity. Indicators include things like life expectancy at birth, infant mortality rate, share of income received by richest 10 per cent, years of life lost in injury, etc. Those with some awareness of these sorts of measures will probably not be surprised to learn that the United States ranks next to last overall (go Mexico!), while those who get their information from FOX or other corporate media may be stunned to the point of disbelief.

Let's start off by considering the health category, since healthcare is very much in the news in the US, and what's happening with it now so richly illustrates the value of Fullbrook's austere marshalling of stubborn facts. Republicans repeatedly claim that the US has the best healthcare system in the world. And if you're a third-world dictator - the Shah of Iran, most famously - you would probably be inclined to agree. But for actual American citizens? Not so much. The indicators in this category, along with the United States' ranking, are as follows: life expectancy at birth (24), healthy life expectancy at birth (24 [tied] out of 29), probability of not reaching the age of 60 (25), infant mortality rate (25), obesity (30), practicing physicians per capita (23), acute care hospital beds per capita (25 out of 29), psychiatric care beds per capita (25 out of 29).

There is no indicator for percentage of people with health care, perhaps because universal coverage is taken for granted in the rest of the developed world, which includes virtually all of the OECD members except Turkey and Mexico. On the combined index of health care indicators, the US comes in at 28, just ahead of ... Turkey and Mexico

mrd — July 19, 2012 at 4:29 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Oh nailingit, you little wedgey of wonderful links...I really could care less what his compound looks like. For you to make the implication that he has built his compound out of money he earned from Fox News alone is rather narrow minded in my opinion. The guy has made sound investments with his money. He's also written books and worked for CNN and had begun his career through talk radio...even founded his own radio station later on in life which he runs today...all after leaving his family home and his family bakery business in Mount Vernon, Washington. Yeah...he had his troubled days, all while suffering from ADHD...even contemplated suicide while suffering drug and alcohol addiction and a raunchy divorce, after losing his mother in a drowning and his step brother in suicide along with having a daughter in the first marriage who was diagnosed with cerebral palsy after multiple strokes at birth which would tear the heart of any family man apart. What turned him around was the help of AA...and the fact that he was looking for answers and came to the realization that even through what he'd experienced in his life, he had a strong urge to further educate himself...religion in particular. He was looking for direction in his life and found it in Mormonism. He wanted to take that turn to better himself, his family, his life...and Mormonism was his answer. It's not for everyone but it worked for him.

His friends consider him a "constitutional stalwart, defending traditional American values." I think a lot of us fall into that category to be honest. He's very headstrong in what he believes...sometimes I find myself so headstrong, I strongly disagree with him (and you) as well. Anyhow, he has all the earmarks of a self-taught, successful businessman who has no problems telling folks how he perceives what is going on in the world. He does his homework...maybe too well for his own good. The people who strongly oppose what he has to say, like to claim he's throwing out conspiracy theories...but don't you find it ironic that 9 times out of 10, the truth comes out and it's what he's been saying all along???

In 2010, he was diagnosed with macular dystrophy which means, he could lose his eyesight at any time.

Nail...the guy's gone through Hell and back. He's managed to turn his tumultuous life around and has become a success. He's been able to provide a secure future for his family and he's done it using common sense and excellent financial advising.

So regarding his compound...Big Deal!!! As far as I'm concerned...he's definitely a card in his own deck...but I give credit where credit is due...but I'd still like to see his pantry.

goldenoldie — July 19, 2012 at 4:34 p.m. ( | suggest removal

danabwoodley — July 19, 2012 at 8:12 a.m.

Looks like everyone better check out what's happening right now, wouldn't you say??? BTW, welcome to the forum (better late than never).

goldenoldie — July 19, 2012 at 4:37 p.m. ( | suggest removal

mrd — July 19, 2012 at 7:58 a.m.

I think they're referring to the items in an average shopping basket. It doesn't surprise me that the percentage is 75%.

goldenoldie — July 19, 2012 at 4:39 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Wow! :) A devoted follower such as you seem to be, sometimes can't see the forest for the trees.

Beck is as .. crazy as crazy gets. And with this latest scandal concerning the Muslim Brotherhood/Michele Bachman, he's becoming a security concern. People overseas don't realize he represents only a fraction of the radical lunatic fringe on the right. Sorry to see you have bought into his narrative hook, line, and sinker.

*but don't you find it ironic that 9 times out of 10, the truth comes out and it's what he's been saying all along???*

Care to source that???


I don't think I need to post some of his quotes/video's in the forum. I think most here, are not only politically savvy, but well rounded adults who understand this guy doesn't begin to pass anyone's smell test.

But for amusement perhaps I will.

nailingit — July 19, 2012 at 4:49 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Hey nailingit, I find it amusing that the comments were made as if someone has "first hand knowledge" and the statements are truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth! Yeah,right.

soapbox4u — July 19, 2012 at 5:07 p.m. ( | suggest removal

soapbox4u- I'm still taken back once in awhile in the forum! It's never boring!

It's hard to approach this subject minus humor, so I won't. I'll let Jon Stewart deal with it...

nailingit — July 19, 2012 at 5:14 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Nail - I don't care much for politics however the dynamics of the discussions and commenters' interactions here are just absolutely fascinating!!

soapbox4u — July 19, 2012 at 6:49 p.m. ( | suggest removal

mrd-If Romney gets in we might hit that coveted 10 spot!

Hasta pa´ pedir limosna hace falta capital!


soapbox- Agreed. It's never boring!

nailingit — July 19, 2012 at 6:54 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Starts this weekend...

nailingit — July 19, 2012 at 7:01 p.m. ( | suggest removal

LOLOLOL, Nailingit, you crack me up. A devoted follower? Naw...just noticing his history from what I've read on various sites. One thing you have to understand about me Nailingit...I first look for the good in all people. I do not ignore their shady past, but I do take note of those who have taken the notion in their lives to do something about their situation and make the best of it. I believe he has done that...and he didn't bilk the taxpayers to do it, either. As I have said time and time again...I don't agree with a lot of what he says but he has been known to make some pretty accurate calls. Don't believe me??? Well my fellow forum dweller...try to deny these:

(1)November 5, 2010 - Glenn Beck Show - Devaluing the US Dollar

George Soros: "So, an orderly decline of the dollar is actually desirable." (same clip)

Forbes reports the Federal Reserve's explicit goal is to devalue the dollar over the next 20 years

(2)Tougher times and preparedness (ongoing since 2008)

Glenn Beck: What Can I Do to Prepare? Wednesday, Oct 15, 2008 at 12:00 AM PDT

(3)Expect a spike in food prices (2011)

Do we really need a source for this one?

(4)2010 - Invest in Gold. It will increase to over $1600 a troy ounce.

In May of 2010, Gold was hovering around $1100 a troy ounce. Last year, it was around $1800. Today, it is currently hovering around that $1580 per troy ounce marker.

(5) ACORN Fraud (Sept, 2009)

November 2010, 18 ACORN workers convicted of fraud.

goldenoldie — July 19, 2012 at 7:23 p.m. ( | suggest removal

go- Perhaps he was riding the coattails of someone else...anyone of these were expected. The Acorn thing was a joke that he perpetuated. Really.

Predictions of *Nostranailingit*

I predict the Beckster will be caught up in a goldline scandal...oops! :)

I predict the economy will eventually take an upturn, and Republicans will not hold the Presidency for the next 16 years.

I predict historians will hold up Dubya as a standard for the worst Presidency/Administration in American history for the next least 16 years. The four after that..who knows? :)

I predict Sean Hannity will announce his involvement in a sexual tryst with George
Zimmerman. It will give birth to a new Fox phrase called "A Zimmer".

I predict the death of Cubana Juana Bautista de la Candelaria Rodríguez in the next five years.

I predict gas prices will fluctuate for several years.

I predict that predictions will be seen unpredictably unpredictable.

nailingit — July 19, 2012 at 8:51 p.m. ( | suggest removal

**The century-old novel right-wingers believe guides Obama**
Forget Bill Ayers. Conservatives who see conspiracies are convinced a 1912 novel reveals the president's true plans

“Philip Dru, Administrator: A Story of Tomorrow, 1920-1935″ is a novel about a successful rebellion against a hopelessly corrupt U.S. government. Its leader then becomes a benevolent dictator, and restores the rule of law to the Republic. Though he didn’t put his name on the book, author Colonel Edward Mandell House was a Texas political insider who worked assiduously to make Woodrow Wilson president. After the 1912 election, he became Wilson’s closest advisor.

So is it a bad turn-of-the-century novel — or a Nostradamus-like prediction of America under President Obama?

“Philip Dru,” published in 1912, is no less dated and didactic than most works of its kind; imagine what future generations of readers will make of Glenn Beck’s “The Overton Window.” But Beck and those like him, inside the twisted thought system of right-wing conspiracy blogs, seriously regard House’s book as “a detailed plan for the future government of the United States.” The extreme right reads “Philip Dru” as the smoking gun that proves the existence of a vast left-wing conspiracy, as a terrifying presage of the Obama administration. Beck has asked listeners to read the book as “homework.” To them, this is not a novel of the Wilsonian era, but a terrifying tale of today.

Republicans might have resented the fanatical hatred that George W. Bush inspired in so many Democrats — Bush Derangement Syndrome, as Charles Krauthammer called it — but there was no mystery about its causes. Bush strutted and smirked; he launched wars with cowboy talk; he angered his adversaries and he knew it. Barack Obama, in contrast, promised a post-partisan presidency that would be all about splitting differences and searching out common ground. Most Democrats — including Obama himself — were caught off guard by the spirit of vindictiveness (Hitler mustaches; birth certificates; “You lie!”; death panel accusations, etc.) that have possessed the right since his inauguration.

read more @

nailingit — July 19, 2012 at 9:04 p.m. ( | suggest removal

nailingit — July 19, 2012 at 9:04 p.m.

So the hitler mustaches on Bush were okay, but the ones on Obama crossed the line, gotta love Liberal "logic". Liberals give us hate and vitriol, but claim to be the party of tolerance.

frobert — July 19, 2012 at 10:45 p.m. ( | suggest removal

I predict someone will prove Glenn Beck a liar!

hawkeye — July 19, 2012 at 11:15 p.m. ( | suggest removal

I didn't know Bush wore a mustache! I've heard the rumors but.....I thought the volleyball players were a fluke.

Did he ever have a beard?

nailingit — July 20, 2012 at 12:05 a.m. ( | suggest removal


I sometimes wonder if anyone on here agrees with me. I tend to hear more from people who don't, but they do not provide any idea of their own position, or a rational argument for it. Some just pick my posts apart and continually ask for the figures behind my reasoning.
I am sorry if it appears as thought I am beating you over the head. But again, I get responses that appear to me designed to make me out to be a fool, so I feel compelled to respond. And the issues I bring up are ones that I feel would be simple to fix, and would allow us to work on things that would have an even greater impact on our future.


I don't know about penpals, but I do find myself with time on my hands now and then. I come on here to join/add to discussion because I am interested in a dialogue among members of my home community. I was born at Vancouver Memorial Hospital on Main Street. I graduated class of 93 from Fort Vancouver High School. I may travel, live in different locations, meet a variety of people, but Vancouver will always be home.

danabwoodley — July 20, 2012 at 12:20 a.m. ( | suggest removal


For what it's worth, I find your posts to be quite interesting...even have similar views as you in a lot of what you say. You're going to continue to discover here that the crowd is a friendly crowd on the forum but if you say the slightest comment which others have discussed heartily (to say the least) in opposition, that friendliness occasionally gets a bit ugly. I believe it's only because of human nature...that fight or flight mechanism we all possess.

goldenoldie — July 20, 2012 at 5:54 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Nail...I get your point, but I have to ask you...where is ACORN today??? You ARE aware that Beck also predicted the uprising of violence and civil unrest in Arab States, right??? Did he have help? You bet he did...with everything he's reported. Maybe that's why it gets him in trouble so often.

And as far as your predictions are concerned...


My number one prediction???

*Ignorance will destroy the world. Keeping an open mind helps to see what is in store for all of us and sometimes, it takes a few friends to remind you to open your eyes.*


goldenoldie — July 20, 2012 at 6:03 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Interesting...Captcha had the words "The Ramaciotti" in a display board fashion with border. According to what I have read, Francis Ramaciotti invented and patented the first modern bass string for the piano.

On another note...Danielle Ramacciotti is the Executive Director, Campaign Strategy and Operations, of Global Partnerships at the United Nations Foundation.

Big brother is watching our discussion??? (queue the conspiracy music...either that or the Twilight Zone theme song)

Naw...What Danielle is doing is actually quite remarkable if you check out her bio.

goldenoldie — July 20, 2012 at 7:31 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Who needs fireworks in July??? Talk about a wonderful light show last night and this morning!!! The best part...I don't have to water this morning, lol.

goldenoldie — July 20, 2012 at 7:33 a.m. ( | suggest removal


If you are referring to a rainstorm with a bit of electricity in the air, then please do me one favor.....

Don't talk about it, send it this way.....PLEASE!

I could really go for a good rain right now. But I suppose we should be happy that the high temp has gotten below 110 this week.

danabwoodley — July 20, 2012 at 7:46 a.m. ( | suggest removal

danabwoodley: It's all good, you know. Carry on, sir. Diversity of ideas and opinion make for interesting discussions. I appreciate the way you ask questions to engage others, rather than having a solo conversation. :)

langenthal: I just found out how the bold type appears by accident. I held down the caps lock key while trying to form the subject change line above.

I caught the error by looking at the text copy below my typing, so I had a chance to correct.

manthou — July 20, 2012 at 8:01 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Michele Bachman and her Muslim Brotherhood witch hunt with Huma Abedin, Hillary Clinton's top aide has me worried on the one hand and gratefully surprised on the other that the likes of the Johns McCain and Boehner have spoken out against her dangerous accusations.

Another Jon, of the Stewart variety, did an hilarious satire on this very serious subject.

Whatever is Bachmann and her House warlock coven thinking?

manthou — July 20, 2012 at 8:08 a.m. ( | suggest removal

nailingit — July 19, 2012 at 9:04 p.m

I find it interesting that who ever the original author is of this post makes mention that the President "promised a post-partisan presidency that would be all about splitting differences and searching out common ground".

Can anyone give me an example of the "post partisan" administration, and "searching out common ground"?

danabwoodley — July 20, 2012 at 8:09 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Crazy living up to their name!

danabwoodley — July 20, 2012 at 8:27 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Danabwoodley, if there was a way I could send some rain your way, I would.

goldenoldie — July 20, 2012 at 8:39 a.m. ( | suggest removal

danabwoodley — July 20, 2012 at 8:09 a.m.

Oh Dana, you know the problem with "post partisan" is that EVERYBODY has to play and play nice. I don't think it's going to happen --- EVER.

But that might not be such a bad thing. It's all a matter of check and balances, isn't it?

hawkeye — July 20, 2012 at 8:47 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Just read about the shooting tragedy in Colorado at the movie theatre: 12 dead and many wounded by a gas-mask wearing gunman.

This is almost incomprehensible in its brutality and proportion.

manthou — July 20, 2012 at 8:53 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Manthou, I've read reports that a 3 month old was shot as well as a 6 year old.

Almost incomprehensible??? From what I've read and heard, they don't even know his motive!!!

I don't think we've seen the last of strange happenings across the US...across the world. I believe it's going to become a lot worse before we see any upward trend of any kind of peaceful existence.

goldenoldie — July 20, 2012 at 9 a.m. ( | suggest removal

danabwoodley — July 20, 2012 at 8:09 a.m.

Examples are so numerous. What political/news lens do you view politics through? I hope this helps. But I have a feeling...

nailingit — July 20, 2012 at 9:16 a.m. ( | suggest removal

manthou — July 20, 2012 at 8:53 a.m.

Truly sad & tragic.

nailingit — July 20, 2012 at 9:19 a.m. ( | suggest removal

This blogger shows a comic page shot from The Dark Knight Returns that depicts a movie theatre shooting:

There will be so much media and public speculation because everyone will be trying to wrap their heads around the whys and what ifs. The shooter himself may not be able to offer any rational insights to answer any of these questions.

So tragic. Almost like a nightmare, not real.

manthou — July 20, 2012 at 9:22 a.m. ( | suggest removal

The crazies are already out exploiting this tragedy. Gohmert was one of the four who signed on to Bachman's conspiracy letter accusing Hillary's aid of being a Muslim Brotherhood mole.

Conservatives used to carry themselves with a little class. Seems they have dropped the cl for quite some time.

"You know what really gets me, as a Christian, is to see the ongoing attacks on Judeo-Christian beliefs, and then some senseless crazy act of a derelict takes place," Gohmert said.

nailingit — July 20, 2012 at 9:56 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Why has the Prez failed in 4 years. Well lets use words like, Dictator,Ruler,authoritarian, none of which means Leader. A leader would have been able to bring both side together...He has a vote of no "Confidence" from his military so what does he do, he usurps the constitution and the congress and does things that are counter productive to our economy, our lives and hurt America in the eyes of the world even more.. As soon as anyone in his party disagrees with him, they either loose Dem money or are taken to the woodshed.. Another thing leaders don't do is force things upon those that he is to lead... Another thing he does is say one thing and then do another... He is a sayer and not a doer... I saw that when he was campaining... I wonder where we would be if we had Hillary instead??? We wouldn't have a Knucklehead VP in Biden for onething... New poll from NY Times has Romney slightly ahead and with the Failing JOB numbers which continue to get worse, it's all about the economy and jobs.. The presidents approval rating is in the toilet.. Worse than any other president and his presidency is now being compared with Jimmy Carter... Which is rated as the worst president ever...Now over 5 trillion in debt in his presidency as well.. I could go on but beating a dead horse isn't very fun. When will people wake up and kick his butt to the Curb??? If he was our mayor everyone would be wanting to recall him..LOL

vanwadreamer — July 20, 2012 at 9:56 a.m. ( | suggest removal

vanwadreamer — July 20, 2012 at 9:56 a.m.


Are you married?

If you are, look at the Presidency like this- imagine if you will that for the last four years, every time you asked your spouse about anything, they said NO! "do you want to go to the store-NO!, Do you want to have dinner-NO!, do you want to go to a movie-NO!, do you want to get busy-NO-NO-NO!"

How would that work for you, oh, and on top of that, what if they were trying to prove you were not here legally, not just once but constantly?

Sounds like fun, huh? That's just a taste, it's much worse. Think about it.

hawkeye — July 20, 2012 at 10:25 a.m. ( | suggest removal


Sorry but you swung and missed the whole message I wrote. Your is but and excuse, thats it period an excuse. The reason he has had such a hard time with the Rep and Now some Dems is that he isn't what he said he was going to be or do. He is just trying to shove things down the throats of Americans and thats not the way he portrayed himself during the election.. He was this "Smooooth Talker" then, now he can't string a sentence that isn't on his teleprompter.. Wouldn't you think you could give a speach with a few notes and talking points and tell people where you stand.. Not this guy...And all your doing is making excuses... Just like everyone else who thinks he should be president or hold him in such high regard. He was the one holding Americas credit rating down, he didn't want to budge not the republicans.. All this guy wants to do is spend yours and mine $$$$$$$$$.. 5 Trillion..Whats your excuse for that? How about the Obamacare.. That isn't even getting funded properly and will end up costing all the taxpayers even more, even if you don't choose to use it.. How about you pay my gas bill for the year and see how you like it.. You don't get to drive my car but you have to buy my gas.. Why are some many people stupid on this? looking for reasonable answers only

vanwadreamer — July 20, 2012 at 12:34 p.m. ( | suggest removal

vanwadreamer — July 20, 2012 at 12:34 p.m

I'd try to answer you but you don't make much sense.

Also, FYI, there is no such thing as "Obamacare". You should know that, what's YOUR excuse?

hawkeye — July 20, 2012 at 1:04 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Come on thats the same lame excuse most of Obamas supporters say..LAMO.. Sorry You don't make sense..

Try this one..

Lets say your married...You probably are... Gleaning from your personal experiences above and one sat morning you get a little frisky and then your wife says, Honey your sweater is in the top drawer of the dresser, you don't want to get cold... Have a good game today..

My spouse and I don't work that way, see it's called coperation, give and take, know how to make your partner happy, know what doesn't make your partner happy is even better..LOL Surprise your partner with something special out of the blue for no reason.. If you need more help or coaching let me know...I can tell our Prez doesn't know how to do this just by looking at him and her...

vanwadreamer — July 20, 2012 at 1:54 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Oh, now I see, "coperation" isn't that the red goo that comes off the uckempucky in a right turn thru the credisphram as you spin your back up to the left phrammis?

I thought so.

Keep your poeder dry.

hawkeye — July 20, 2012 at 2:40 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Have a great weekend. I'm going fishin for some steelies....

vanwadreamer — July 20, 2012 at 4:15 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Watch out for lightning.....

Cruise in in Battle Ground Old Town tonight from 7 to 10

hawkeye — July 20, 2012 at 5:09 p.m. ( | suggest removal

where's reece & finch when you need them?

sometimes pretend is so much better than reality.

DeeLittle — July 20, 2012 at 5:40 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Heeere's yer sign...
(Referencing Columbian's article entitled "Midwest drought is state's gain")

**"All indications are that we'll have the largest crop (apples) in ever," said Todd Flyhover, president of the Washington Apple Commission.*

*Prices could be higher because the other top apple-growing states -- Michigan and New York -- have been hit by unfavorable weather, he said.*

*"It looks like we'll be the beneficiaries of our friends' misfortune," said Dale Foreman, an Eastern Washington attorney and fruit grower told The News Tribune.*

*Wheat prices have risen more than $2 a bushel in the last month, said Brett Blankenship, a dryland wheat farmer in Adams County.*

*Washington is the nation's fourth-largest wheat producer. Soft white wheat, the most-commonly grown in Washington, is now selling in Portland for about $9 a bushel, up from about $7 a bushel last year*.

I'd expect the price of all products containing wheat to rise as a result.

goldenoldie — July 20, 2012 at 7:15 p.m. ( | suggest removal

This is mostly all opinion - meaning no sources will be referenced. (Comment for those who consider this important - like Fro and Lord Basil.) And please keep in mind that I've said before that I really couldn't care less who marries who.

Washington Referendum 74, the vote on allowing gay marriage, is nothing more than a symbolic gesture, and therefore both a distraction and a waste of time.

There are several important elections this year - Maria Cantwell, JHB, Boldt vs. Madore vs. Battan, Olsen vs. Stonier, McKenna vs. Inslee, and Benton vs. Probst - to name a few. Oh yeah - and we have to decide whether Pres Obama gets a return engagement.

There's the marijuana legalization proposition (which I'm not entirely up on).

There's another Eyman proposition in the works - not sure if that made the timeline.

And we have the C-Tran sales tax proposition for light rail O&M;, and recently expanded to include BRT on Fourth Plain.

Referendum 74 is little more than a statement - it will accomplish nothing of real benefit.

WA doesn't have an income tax, and they won't be able to file federal taxes as if married. DOMA won't allow this.

They won't be able to share Social Security or other federal benefits. Doma again.

Many people will find they can't put their spouse on their health insurance; the only ones WA can direct this to happen for are the ones in the state exchange. TRICARE, for example - Nope. Once again, DOMA.

Want to move? Over 30 states ban gay marriage, and a few more won't recognize it due to laws that marriage is one man one woman. Don't try moving to North Carolina (lots of jobs there), or for that matter Oregon (they'll only recognize you as a civil union - though you will get the same tax preference as married couples when filing state taxes).

Anyhow, my opinion is that this referendum will be heavily contested - the religious right is mobilizing, and the gay rights groups have always been highly vocal.

And I suppose I'm not happy with this - because The Columbian will waste lots of space and ink arguing in support of gay marriage - and everyone on both sides (to include me) will feel a need to respond. And meanwhile, they'll continue to get away with ignoring the many problems with the CRC, and will do everything possible to sway public opinion to support the C-Tran tax proposition.

roger — July 20, 2012 at 8:57 p.m. ( | suggest removal

OK nail-

I looked at those links. Perhaps you have a point.
BUT.....(you knew it was there)

I look at the grouping that was brought together to assemble the more than 2000 pages that became the ACA. Late in the game, there was a very highly publicized coming together with leaders from the Republican Party, but what was the end result?

I also look at the fact that whenever there is something being held up in either house of Congress, I hear in press conferences a constant blaming of the opposing party. Not just from the President, but from Congressional leaders as well, both parties.

I suggest that to truly be "postpartison" then the public blame game between the parties should cease. I know this would only be a start, but it would be a good first step. If the President truly believes that we should be "postpartisan" then he should take a stand that a true leader would, and make a personal, conscious effort to stop the public blame game.

But hey, that is just my opinion right?

danabwoodley — July 20, 2012 at 9:14 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Good point. I guess that, in a nutshell, the question would be:

Why is the word Marriage so important in this issue. If you already have all the inherrent rights, then why do you need that word behind it?

I know people living in a committed same sex relationship without even formalizing the civil union, but still refer to each other in the traditional marital sense of husband/wife (as appropriate).

If someone can give a logical explanation to why this is such an issue, please, enlighten us.

danabwoodley — July 20, 2012 at 9:33 p.m. ( | suggest removal

OK, let's get local-

I know I haven't heard a lot about this in the Evergreen State, but perhaps we need to open this up. I am interested in knowing if I am the only one here who believes the WA should pass a Right to Work Law?

Why should a person be denied a job for which they are qualified simply because they do not wish to be a union member? And if not a member, why should they be forced to pay the dues to the union?

I will not say all unions are bad things, but some are out there that have lost sight of their mission and aren't really looking out for the members. Some unions will shut down shop during a strike without regard to how it affects people who aren't even members (who has seen a school shut down during a teachers strike? good for the students?).

These unions could also use their revenue (dues from members) to support an initiative or candidate regardless of member views. But you are still compelled to pay these dues or lose your job.

Is this fair to the members? Is it fair to those who don't want to be members? Is it fair to the parties who aren't members but are still affected?

We need to have the freedom to choose. I do not believe that choice should be to "go find a different employer without the union" In some careers (ie public school teacher) the union cannot be avoided. A lot of people cry out for the ability to have a choice in other parts of life (recreational marijuana, abortion, same sex marriage) why can't this be another choice to be protected?

danabwoodley — July 21, 2012 at 3:19 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Press Talk Today: Congratulations on the SPJ awards, Columbian. Well-done!

Didn't you print that story two months ago? Check it out:

Why the full page ad on A8 now?

If it is to remind your dedicated employees of how much they are valued, good for you for understanding that there is never
too much praise for hard work.

If it is to remind dedicated readers that their respectful criticism is misplaced, and they should simply stuff it and be grateful for such a quality paper, it backfired.

Even Pulitzer prize winners falter, and do, if they think their readers are asleep at the truth-meter wheel.

So, enjoy the well-earned praise from your colleagues at the SPJ, and keep up the good work and your eye on the truth and facts.

It matters to readers like me that the press maintain its ethics and integrity because I truly believe that free speech and democracy will whither without it.

So keep the good stories coming and we, your grateful but vigilant customers, will keep our eyes and ears open for errors and ethical lapses. :)

manthou — July 21, 2012 at 5:42 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Morning Manthou,
I have found the best way to get the real stories is to read as many different publications/news sites as possible. Otherwise too one-sided, leaving out half of what's important or not even mentioning a topic. For local news, this is, of course, not always possible as we don't have too many outlets. My kid has switched over to Al-Jazeera (gasp, eh?), I am hitting the BBC. Coupled with US news, I am hoping to learn a bit more of what's really going on and to get various perspectives.

What's your quick take on the Aurora shooter? I tried not to read too many details, but just from a few statements about him I see a strong resemblance to VTech. A loner once more; signs were there. I am not saying that this could have been prevented but people should not be as surprised as they are when things like this happen and the suspect/perp surfaces. There's got to be more colleges can do to aid such obviously mentally ill students.

luvithere — July 21, 2012 at 7:24 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Nail, had missed your take on the bakery. Thanks for the update. I am going this morning, hoping to hit the sausage factory also. Naturally, one shoudl be there by 8am to get best selection.

luvithere — July 21, 2012 at 7:33 a.m. ( | suggest removal

luvithere: How are you this am? Up early, too, I see. :)

I agree on getting our information from a variety of sources. That is such good advice. My favorite right now is the CS Monitor as my go-to source when I do not have time. I love the alternative weekly papers, too, like The Stranger and The WW.

The shooter in Colorado: My best educated guess is psychosis. He was functioning at a high level of competence, at least academically, until recently, it seems. No major brushes with the law, until now. And now he is dropping out of grad school, dying his hair red and posting profiles on sex ad websites, not to mention purchasing an arsenal and killing people. Kind of like going from 0 to 120 in three seconds. As you know, full-blown psychosis emerges often around the later teens to early 20's. Until then, there are often "soft' signs and a gradual decline in day-to-day functioning.

He will be diagnosed with a psychotic disorder, if he not already has been. Clarification: most people who suffer from a psychotic disorder do not kill people.

manthou — July 21, 2012 at 7:57 a.m. ( | suggest removal

luvithere; You know, many colleges are kicking students out who have mental health issues now, rather than helping them seek treatment and stay in school. It has become a real issue for mental health advocates. Colleges want to reduce liability in the face of more students entering with significant mental illness.

manthou — July 21, 2012 at 8:04 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Manthou, right on spot, I agree with Dx. I do think, though, that colleges can and need to do better. Going off to grad school -or undergrad, for that matter-can be highly stressful and bring out the already pre-existing disorder (stress triggering schizophrenia, for example). Freshmen these days get lots of information on drug and alcohol use and abuse, often needing to take an online quick course on it as well as being part of freshmen orientation. I as a parent took part in a 3-day orientation last year, lots of info on everything, lots of fun, lots of talk about drug use and how to spot signs of trouble there. How easy is it to incorporate a discussion and information on mental disorders and some trouble signs? How easy is it to urge students to be on lookout and maybe even extend a sign of friendship to a lonely student? And even better-follow Cleary Rule (Penn anybody?), have the steps in place at the college level, and follow through? A place overrun with psychologists as many colleges are that have a decent liberal arts college as part of their university, should be able to set some changes in motion fairly quickly. Making changes only to their overall alert system as was done after the VTech shootings is just not enough.
I am dreaming once more.

luvithere — July 21, 2012 at 8:20 a.m. ( | suggest removal

luvithere: I share your questions and frustration that colleges should be educating and supporting the mental health needs of students better. Even with federal and state mental health parity laws, mental illness is still a stigma and seen as a liability that needs to be removed off campus to reduce lawsuit threats.

There are some good programs in place like Mental Health First Aid on some campuses. It takes advocacy and time.

manthou — July 21, 2012 at 8:27 a.m. ( | suggest removal


Couple of points..

Unions represent their members, period, the end. Kinda like a defense attorney.

I may be wrong on this, but I don't think dues can go to political candidates. I thought political contributions were voluntary.

A union shop doesn't sneak up on anyone. It has been my experience that a prospective employee is told how many days he has to join the union prior to starting work.

If a shop is non-union and decides to certify a union, that requires a majority vote of the employees. Seems to be a fair process. As with all elections, I'm sure there will be some sore losers, but that's the way it goes.

This is not intended to be a blanket approval for unions. There are examples where union wages and benefits have priced themselves out of the market. If it weren't for the Davis-Bacon Act providing prevailing wages on public construction projects, many union construction jobs would disappear. But several factors also come into play. Rather than buy domestics products that may cost more, Americans will buy cheaper imports, helping send our jobs overseas.

Kinda like many bashing public unions. Everyone wants to see good jobs with benefits come to their communities, but no one wants to pay for them. Comes down to plain ol' taking care of number one. Congress can't cut spending unless the cuts can be directed at people that are politically powerless (generally the poor) as they take care of their number one. And so it goes....

mrd — July 21, 2012 at 8:38 a.m. ( | suggest removal

mrd — July 21, 2012 at 8:38 a.m

Couldn't have said it better myself.

Surprisingly enough, some companies WANT their employees to be unionized. That way they only have to deal with one entity when it comes to contracts, healthcare and wages. They don't have a hundred separate people coming in asking for raises and special needs.

And you are correct, union dues can only be used to support the operations of the union, not to support and candidate or cause.

hawkeye — July 21, 2012 at 9:34 a.m. ( | suggest removal

manthou @ 5:42- I thought that story looked familiar! :)

nailingit — July 21, 2012 at 10:29 a.m. ( | suggest removal

DBW- *then he should take a stand that a true leader would, and make a personal, conscious effort to stop the public blame game.*

The public should be aware of public leaders who publicly misrepresent the publics interests publically.

*Why is the word Marriage so important in this issue. If you already have all the inherrent rights, then why do you need that word behind it?*

*If someone can give a logical explanation to why this is such an issue, please, enlighten us.*

In light of "life liberty & the pursuit of happiness", perhaps the better question would be, why not?

But hey, that is just my opinion right?

nailingit — July 21, 2012 at 10:42 a.m. ( | suggest removal


i like Der Spiegil in germany, too. the information is thorough and useful. however, for one well-known pothead here, they're apparently too long for some concentration skills.

DeeLittle — July 21, 2012 at 11:04 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Perhaps an appropriate time for a re-print.

From a few weeks ago.

nailingit — July 21, 2012 at 12:09 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Dee, yes, Der Spiegel is also pretty thorough.
Nail: went to bakery too late for Pretzels and Laugenweck. Typical...had a Semmel with my homemade mixed german style jam when we got home and it was good. Bought Bavarian Rye bread and graced it with just thinly sliced leberkaesen wurst. OMG-heaven.
Next time i will pre-order bread and rolls and hoof it over bridge by 8am.
Roger, once more many thanks for the referral. Stepped into the Sausage factory also but did not buy anything. Next time!

luvithere — July 21, 2012 at 12:32 p.m. ( | suggest removal

nailingit and luvithere and roger: I am late to the party, as usual.

Are you talking 'bout The German Bakery on Sandy in PDX? Or am I missing one in da 'Couv?

manthou — July 21, 2012 at 12:37 p.m. ( | suggest removal

after thinking about what holmes did, when and in what order, i'm wondering about something.

first...caveat: i believe in evil. plain, bald-faced, human-hating evil.

given that, this person is highly intelligent, and the planning, preparation and execution of his desire reflects that. but he's also evil.

he's been planning, dreaming..getting more and more rev'd up...and finally it's time.

71 casualties. 10 dead on site. shooting a baby point-blank. so why just give up? full body-armor, still armed, he just walks to his car, encounters law enforcement and up. and why tell the police his apt's rigged to explode?

i think he did all this to know what it was like to kill people. thought it would be 'better than sex' (as the saying goes).

i think he was simply bored by the time the drum mag jammed so he just left. he told the cops about the bombs to get that little jolt still left in his plan.

i don't think he had any thought for AFTER the murdering. it was so insignificant to him, he didn't even consider it. NOT being schizophrenic or suffering a reality-break, he quickly analyzed his situation, lawyer-ed up and stopped talking.

so where did he get all this MONEY to buy full body armor, 6k rounds of ammo, the drum mag and the guns. one glock ain't cheap and he had two.

he was supposed to be looking for mcdonald's-type jobs after leaving school. where'd he get so much buying power? i guess parents. they'd be blind to the evil overtaking him, so they'd be easy to con.

some things are as inevitible as they are plain.

DeeLittle — July 21, 2012 at 12:57 p.m. ( | suggest removal

manthou- Yes. The German Bakery on Sandy. Worth a trip. My wife and I spoke at length with a German employee from the East side. It was fun to reminisce, and the milk rolls & cheese (I can vouch for the Dutch Gouda!) are 1st rate, not to mention gherkins. We plan on taking it in a couple times a month.

nailingit — July 21, 2012 at 1:14 p.m. ( | suggest removal

crazy: are you saying or implying the FBI is behind this? That they staged this? So why not abort it? Ooops mistake?
Just trying to get at what the link provided is saying.

luvithere — July 21, 2012 at 1:44 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Manthou, Nail. The semmel were not quite as good as I hoped. But the bread is.The place is worth going - Nail, might see you over there (to be recognized as the dude discussing pol over lunch?)

luvithere — July 21, 2012 at 1:45 p.m. ( | suggest removal

luvit- The Becksters and Jones are out to make a buck drumming up their latest conspiracy. It's sad that folks give them any measure of credence. But of's the Government's fault!

I hope we would run into each other luvit. But I would most likely be the one discussing the benefits of a good Hefewiezen over politics! :)

I don't know how long it's been since you've resided in Germany, but Dubya Bush's stain is at the forefront of any German/American political discussion. Bush sorely ruined much good about USA politics. :(

nailingit — July 21, 2012 at 1:58 p.m. ( | suggest removal


if one removes the fbi-hating part, it's interesting. but the author's attempt to classify terrorist-infiltrating activities as an indictment of the mega-threat fbi just ruins it for me. can't pull anything useful out of it.

the other stuff sounds a lot like a trial balloon would look like after being launched by a defense team.

DeeLittle — July 21, 2012 at 2 p.m. ( | suggest removal

luvit- During our stay in Germany we were fortunate to travel a few places. Anyplace we went, if conversing longer than a few minutes with a native, more times than not George Bush would be brought up, and what a terrible influence he was internationally. One of the good aspects of living overseas was that I missed the entire Bush stateside presidency (except on visits). The downside was trying to explain to folks that even though Bush was elected...twice!!!...that many of us rejected his policies. To be an American overseas during that time, people generally assumed you agreed with a warmonger and theocrat.

But nothing a couple of brews over good conversation couldn't help! :)

nailingit — July 21, 2012 at 2:09 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Hey Crazy and Dee, it just went a bit too far in implicating FBI, all I meant.
The guy was a beginning student in neuroscience; just no way he took part in anything experimental. Plus, that's not what neuroscience actually does, especially at a reputable university like this one. I am not sure what set him off, but planning is always part of something like this when a guy goes off the deep end.

luvithere — July 21, 2012 at 2:56 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Well Nail, if I hear some political rants from a dude with the hefenweizen, I know it's you. :)

I know what you mean with Bush and impression over there. I have a friend at the university at Mannheim, told me years back after he got "elected" the second time, they had an impromptu internal conference, discussing what exactly his mental, ahem, incapability is. Thought that was funny and very telling. His elections sure puzzled many people over there and I was getting asked often why he got elected. Told them to check numbers again....ah well, damage done, too late.

luvithere — July 21, 2012 at 3:01 p.m. ( | suggest removal

luvithere — July 21, 2012 at 2:56 p.m.

Just a thought but do you think he may have been "experimenting" with some kind of drugs? With the level of intelligence that he seems to have, there had to be some kind of "artificial" influence there.

hawkeye — July 21, 2012 at 6:03 p.m. ( | suggest removal

wow. can you imagine the epic task that seating a jury's gonna be?

DeeLittle — July 21, 2012 at 6:48 p.m. ( | suggest removal

hawkeye — July 21, 2012 at 6:03 p.m.

Intelligence and sanity are unrelated.

frobert — July 21, 2012 at 6:55 p.m. ( | suggest removal

"Intelligence and sanity are unrelated." -- frobert — July 21, 2012 at 6:55 p.m.

One might say the higher the intelligence, the less one feels a need to exhibit sanity.

Intelligence is measurable. Sanity is a judgment call; frequently made by others concerning someone they can't understand. Or, more appropriately, sanity is the ability of someone to adhere to what society considers normal.

Prior to joining the Army, I spent a few years working as a behavioral health counselor in PA and AZ. An observation I made was that the people who worked in these institutes were often crazier than the people locked up there. But they could fool the world, while the inmates couldn't. Figured I better find a new career before I ended up like my coworkers.

roger — July 21, 2012 at 7:13 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Well, yes, we can measure IQ and we have tests and parameters for sanity but who is to say what is normal or not? Naturally, this act was not normal, don't get me wrong.
He might have used drugs but I seriously doubt that drugs are responsible for this. Psychotic break in the making for a while,imo. Look at some of the other shooters, they planned, none of them seemed to be low in IQ (VTech guy was not for sure).

I have an old friend who seemed normal as long as I knew him. Off he went to NY to get his PhD. Stress and environment got to him, could not handle it. Also had some family history that was quite interesting; getting smuggled out of Iran under the Shah as he was of the wrong religion, family escaped years later - he then subsequently got diagnosed as a paranoid schizophrenic. He was completely functioning, brilliant to boot, but if you said the right trigger words - oh boy. Off he went. Saw little men in green tights (I swear), FBI blowing poison down the air shaft to get him, CIA taking his pictures, and so on. At times extremely hilarious to us, but he was convinced it was all true. He had the seed of the illness in him, but at his grad university he became a loner, threatened the administration, etc. Took less than a year for his complete breakdown. He did get his degree, however. In Psychology (Basic learning). Last I knew he is a counselor. So yes, Roger, sometimes the therapists are as crazy as the inmates - or worse.

luvithere — July 21, 2012 at 7:33 p.m. ( | suggest removal

nailingit — July 21, 2012 at 12:09 p.m.

As usual, Rachel bombasts us with her "logic", but wrong is wrong. Ron Paul, and his viewpoint labeled extremist several minutes into the video, was right.

Per the Declaration of Independence (and mirroring the writings of John Locke, who could be called the real founder of our form of government in that many of the founding fathers were disciples of his):

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed,

--That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.

Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed.

But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security."

The Constitution and its Second Amendment guaranteeing our right to bear arms is intended to ensure a state could raise an armed militia when needed; there was no intent to have a standing Army. (Just a Navy.)

Our Constitutional writers did recognize, however, that human nature is such that given the opportunity an individual would resort to tyranny if allowed. This was the reason behind the separation of powers. Further, it can be argued that the oath public officials take to protect against enemies foreign and domestic includes any individual or group that attempts to take control of the government for their own means.

One could also reasonably argue that the people are the last line of defense against a despot, and that the intent was that the people would rise up against our own central government if necessary. Kindly note that nowhere did our Constitutional framers refute our basic duty to rebel against tyranny as espoused in The Declaration.

And if all of this holds, then in this day and age we should at least have automatic weapons. Not that they'd do us much good; the Feds have stuff that make video games look lame. But at least we could take out a few of those pesky drones....

roger — July 21, 2012 at 8:02 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Dee, this might never see a jury. He will admit, defense will try and plead insanity which he probably will not be under legal guidelines. Either way, there will be so much speculation and so many things coming out over the next few days and months...the whole thing is sickening and sad. Cannot fathom anybody doing this.

luvithere — July 21, 2012 at 8:05 p.m. ( | suggest removal

These guys just pretended to be peaceniks - this song by Neil Young and sung the hell out of by David Crosby suggests they were ready to take to the streets.

roger — July 21, 2012 at 8:22 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Fantastic song, among my favorites. About Kent State killings, right? Quoting Reagan buddy at his finest?

luvithere — July 21, 2012 at 8:35 p.m. ( | suggest removal

When social inequties in this country are considered, along with the number of murders done by guns, does anyone really think the old white guys, you know, the slave owning dudes that felt women were property, unable to vote as were Native Americans, would see their intent of the 2nd admendment, the gun thing, correct based on today's reality? I seriously doubt it. As far as I'm concerned, this makes the 2nd admendment defense of being able to arm yourself to the teeth a joke.

Is what happened in Colorado shocking? Nope. Tragic, yes, but not surprising. A little perspective-5,000 people have been shot and killed in Chicago alone since 2001. About 2,000 American soldiers have been killed in Afghanistan in the same time.

Our Supreme Court has ruled in a case we need to be armed to protect ourselves from our murderous neighbors. That was their wording, not mine, in a Wash DC case where a man appealed the law forbidding handguns.

In short folks, we are one of the most violent societies on the planet. But no worries, I read somewhere we're one place above Sudan.

Good grief.....we totally suck. But at least we have plenty of guns. away!!!!

mrd — July 21, 2012 at 9:07 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Are you guys telling me that the organization of the union doesn't even use the collective monies it collects in dues to contribute to political causes?

"Particularly, I want to emphasize my conviction that militant tactics have no place in the functions of any organization of Government employees. Upon employees in the Federal service rests the obligation to serve the whole people, whose interests and welfare require orderliness and continuity in the conduct of Government activities. This obligation is paramount. Since their own services have to do with the functioning of the Government, a strike of public employees manifests nothing less than an intent on their part to prevent or obstruct the operations of Government until their demands are satisfied."

Can anyone identify this quote?

danabwoodley — July 21, 2012 at 9:48 p.m. ( | suggest removal


I will share somethings you have probably heard before, but I believe they are relevant to this topic.

Ever notice that after a mass killing, they want to take the guns away from the people that didn't do it?

If you take the guns away from the everyday, law abiding citizens, then the evil men will be the only ones armed.

If more honest, law abiding citizens would exercise their 2nd ammendment rights responsibly, there would be more citizens armed ready to defend against evil. There are documented cases when a crime is stopped by an armed citizen. But most today are too pacifistic and antiviolence to be willing to make that stand. This allows a tragedy such as Aurora, or MAJ Hasan at Ft. Hood, to claim the number of victims that they do.

danabwoodley — July 21, 2012 at 9:55 p.m. ( | suggest removal

mrd — July 21, 2012 at 9:07 p.m.

If someone is going out intent on shooting 80 people, are they going to stop because the gun is illegal?

If your figure on Chicago is correct, considering that they have the strictest gun regulation in the country, it would only prove that gun control is useless.

frobert — July 21, 2012 at 9:57 p.m. ( | suggest removal

And the discussion of sanity....

While the question of one's sanity can have an affect on the sentencing phase, it cannot logically be a defense to excuse criminal activity. The perpetrator may need help, true, but they must still pay the price for the crime they commit. If you are not going to send them to prison, they need to be hospitalized under security. They must still serve a sentence for the wrongs they do.

danabwoodley — July 21, 2012 at 9:59 p.m. ( | suggest removal

roger @ 8:02-*And if all of this holds, then in this day and age we should at least have automatic weapons. Not that they'd do us much good; the Feds have stuff that make video games look lame.*

You just proved Maddow's point! :)))

nailingit — July 21, 2012 at 11:27 p.m. ( | suggest removal

mrd-*In short folks, we are one of the most violent societies on the planet. But no worries, I read somewhere we're one place above Sudan.
Good grief.....we totally suck. But at least we have plenty of guns. away!!!!*

Good thing we are so proficient serving up health care! ;)

Unfortunately, 21st century logic doesn't tread to far with many in this area. It's just gotten crazy. If you haven't checked out the vid @ 12:09 it's worth a look. Maddow sums it up quite well in a short time. ( btw Rachel is an avid shooter herself)

nailingit — July 21, 2012 at 11:46 p.m. ( | suggest removal

What are Willard's viewpoints on gun control?

Seems as if they're a ... crap shoot!

How could anyone who cared about anything ever trust this joker?

nailingit — July 22, 2012 at 12:12 a.m. ( | suggest removal

DBW @ 9:48- Your use of this quote, in context, makes no sense. Please explain. FDR was offering opinion, speaking strictly to government employees & militant action.

DBW @ 9:55- *Ever notice that after a mass killing, they want to take the guns away from the people that didn't do it?*

Who are they? Who is speaking about taking anyone's guns?

*If you take the guns away from the everyday, law abiding citizens*...

Again, who is threatening this? Someone made of straw?

nailingit — July 22, 2012 at 12:56 a.m. ( | suggest removal


The use of "they" is referring to the gun control lobby who use a tragedy such as Aurora to illistrate their point of limiting the general public access to firearms.

Though the groups may fall silent for a time, garauntee that this tragedy will raise the issue again.

And FDR's quote specifically mentioned a strike as a militant action. In the case of public sector unions, a strike is an effort to obstruct the conduct of government business. While I cannot cite for all such unions, I have been a witness, and personally affected by one such action. Many (many, many) years ago, there was a teacher's union strike against the Evergreen School District. Almost an entire month of school was postponed until the agreement was reached. This is least fair to the students and families that depend on this service.

danabwoodley — July 22, 2012 at 1:32 a.m. ( | suggest removal

The point I was trying to make, and did so poorly, was the Senile Court's rulings on gun issues have gotten us to the point where any type of gun control is useless. Way too many guns out there in the hands of way too many violent yo-yos. But I do agree with the court on one thing, we are such a heavily armed and violent country we need to be able to arm ourselves against each other.

So let's all get armed and shoot 'em up! Gawd, ain't 'merica grate?!

mrd — July 22, 2012 at 7:32 a.m. ( | suggest removal


I will agree that there are too many violent yo-yo's that are armed. But I also believe that one violent yo-yo is too many.

I also believe that an armed citizen with a proper education in handling weapons can be a savior. The authorities can not be everywhere all at once. A good samaritan can literally be a life saver.

danabwoodley — July 22, 2012 at 7:55 a.m. ( | suggest removal

mrd — July 22, 2012 at 7:32 a.m.

The supreme court has ruled properly on the recent second amendment issues. Even the dissent agrees that the founders and the writers of the fourteenth intended "keep and bear arms" to be an individual right. The liberal block of the court however felt that "police Powers" should overrule specifically stated rights, even though "police" is never mentioned in the Constitution. If the liberal block had prevailed the precedent could have been used to set aside **any** enumerated right.

frobert — July 22, 2012 at 9:10 a.m. ( | suggest removal

"Laws that forbid the carrying of arms . . . disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes . . . Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man." -- Thomas Jefferson, quoting Cesare Beccaria in On Crimes and Punishment (1764).

"I also believe that an armed citizen with a proper education in handling weapons can be a savior. The authorities can not be everywhere all at once. A good samaritan can literally be a life saver." -- danabwoodley — July 22, 2012 at 7:55 a.m.

Yesterday, I briefly thought about making a similar observation - would things have turned out differently if a few people in that theater were armed, and if they'd have returned fire on Holmes? People might claim this Old West style shootout would be dangerous, but in comparison to Holmes walking in and calmly executing people?

Anyhow, I ran across a report that said Holmes was wearing body armor of some sort, and without knowing the quality (as pertains to stopping capability), decided the rounds from a pistol the average person might own would be little more than an irritant to him. The Feds only ban body armor for convicted felons, and Connecticut is the only state with an outright ban on body armor to anyone except law enforcement.

Holmes was also wearing a gas mask, though I haven't seen what kind. Many restrict the wearer's hearing and range of vision, so I suppose an armed someone could have worked their way behind him and put a round in the back of his head, but....

roger — July 22, 2012 at 9:18 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Here you go. I am not stating whether I agree with the congressman's idea or no. But here is the gun control lobby going to work.

danabwoodley — July 22, 2012 at 10:46 a.m. ( | suggest removal

danabwoodley — July 22, 2012 at 10:46 a.m.

Political opportunists will always try to use the suffering of others to push their agenda.

frobert — July 22, 2012 at 11:03 a.m. ( | suggest removal

roger — July 22, 2012 at 9:18 a.m

Why would you have to get behind him? I suspect that a gas mask isn't bullet proof. Also, body armor rarely covers the legs.

hawkeye — July 22, 2012 at 11:36 a.m. ( | suggest removal

I'll have to back off some of my comments. I read where the homicide rate in the late 1700's was about 6 times higher in the US than today. Not sure what the weapon of choice was, but anyway, maybe those guys knew how violent Americans were and would be. I dunno.

Also read where studies (1930 to present) have shown the murder rate goes up in times of low approval ratings of the forces in control, down after wars when fewer males in their prime for murdering are around.

So let's keep shooting each other, we've got a reputation to maintain. Kill on!!!!

mrd — July 22, 2012 at 12:15 p.m. ( | suggest removal


heard his was not classified as 'stopping'. so it would have been possible for return fire. especially the simple surprise factor if nothing else would have done SOMETHING. a pause from him, men rising and attacking...

we all know there will never again be another plane full of americans who will sit meekly while threatened by box cutters. maybe this lesson will have similar results.

DeeLittle — July 22, 2012 at 2:43 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Just another thing that pisses me off---

The constant crucify-cation of Joe Paterno when he has no chance of defending himself. How can they wipe out all the good he has done in his life by the acts of another.

hawkeye — July 22, 2012 at 3:18 p.m. ( | suggest removal

hawkeye — July 22, 2012 at 3:18 p.m.

I have to agree with you on that one, he isn't around to refute anything they say.

frobert — July 22, 2012 at 4:16 p.m. ( | suggest removal

found this interesting. any comment?

**Marine Corps creates law enforcement battalions**;=HOME&TEMPLATE;=DEFAULT&CTIME;=2012-07-22-17-33-46

> CAMP PENDLETON, Calif. (AP) -- The
> Marine Corps has created its first law
> enforcement battalions - a lean,
> specialized force of military police
> officers that it hopes can quickly
> deploy worldwide to help investigate
> crimes from terrorism to drug
> trafficking and train fledgling
> security forces in allied nations.

DeeLittle — July 22, 2012 at 6:19 p.m. ( | suggest removal

*from larry elder column:*

> Brad Pitt, who once
> refreshingly said: “You shouldn’t
> speak until you know what you’re
> talking about. Reporters ask me what I
> feel China should do about Tibet. Who
> cares what I think China should do?
> I’m a f–king actor! They hand me a
> script. I act. I’m here for
> entertainment. Basically, when you
> whittle everything away, I’m a grown
> man who puts on makeup.”
> And that’s a wrap.

*gotta love honesty :)*

DeeLittle — July 22, 2012 at 6:41 p.m. ( | suggest removal

"Why would you have to get behind him? I suspect that a gas mask isn't bullet proof. Also, body armor rarely covers the legs." -- hawkeye — July 22, 2012 at 11:36 a.m.

Because not too many people can shoot a pistol as well as Clint Eastwood; hitting the head from any distance would be a lucky shot - especially once he starts moving when getting fired on. The legs might be easier, except the odds are the chairs will conceal most from you. So, moving to the same aisle as the gunman gives the best shot. And if he's got an automatic weapon, I'd rather come from behind. Low crawl down an outside aisle, and then come in fast.

roger — July 22, 2012 at 7:03 p.m. ( | suggest removal

hawk and frobert,

You forget; the one assistant coach TOLD JoePa he caught them in the shower. Joe didn't do anything. And, per the indictments, there are at least three in the school administration who also agreed to keep it quiet. Meanwhile, Sandusky continued unchecked.

I'm a major Penn State fan; have been since moving there in the late '60s. Used to travel down from my college and get student tickets from friends so I could see Lydell Mitchell, John Hufnagel, John Capaletti, and the great Franco Harris run over and around everyone. And the great Jack Ham; one of the main reasons Penn State was known as Linebacker U.

JoePa was the glue; the driving force behind many a great Penn State team. But that doesn't earn him forgiveness - just sorrow that a great mentor of youth could also let them down like this.

We've been arguing (fighting) this topic on my PA hometown facebook page off and on since the story broke. My friends who are Penn State alumni are especially devastated. We'd have expected something like this out of Pitt, but not Penn State.

roger — July 22, 2012 at 7:21 p.m. ( | suggest removal

"heard his was not classified as 'stopping'. so it would have been possible for return fire." -- DeeLittle — July 22, 2012 at 2:43 p.m.

Not sure what you mean; the accounts I heard say he was walking the aisle and picking targets to shoot at. And seeing as how the guy wasn't military (thankfully) or law enforcement, there's no way of saying how he'd react if he came under fire.

But I agree with the rest of your post. And I suspect a lot of others do too; read today that pistol sales have gone through the roof. Smith & Wesson, among others, are back ordered for months.

And this damned CAPTCHA has become entirely ridiculous with their disguising the letters by fading them, running together, etc.

roger — July 22, 2012 at 7:28 p.m. ( | suggest removal

ROGER found this interesting. any comment? Marine Corps creates law enforcement battalions." -- DeeLittle — July 22, 2012 at 6:19 p.m.

Yeah - JSOC (Joint Spec Ops Cmd) has been doing this mission since their inception, and Army SF and Navy Seals before then. And then there's CIA and FBI, and I suspect Delta (though what they do is kept quiet enough that even military people rarely know). And on the international scene, there are a few other players. (Great Britain, Israel, and I think South Africa in the current theater.)

So, what do I think? That probably the USMC is looking for a reason to avoid reductions if DOD gets hit with major cuts due to inability to pass a budget. And they'll probably be used mainly to secure the area; the big boys won't let them get in their way by trying to do anything more than this.

roger — July 22, 2012 at 7:38 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Roger and Hawkeye

The article I read said he was wearing body armor, plus leg, throat,groin protectors and a ballistic helmet.

frobert — July 22, 2012 at 7:48 p.m. ( | suggest removal

If I may chime in-

It would depend on the type of body armor he was wearing. If the equipment he was wearing is the same currently in use by most soldiers, then taking him down would have been feasable. The basic armor itself is NOT bulletproof. It is designed to stop shrapnel and other fragments. If you have the ballistic inserts, they provide small arms protection up to a certain calibre. The inserts, however, only cover chest, back, and, if you have them, sides of the abdomen below the rib cage. None of the other elements have the small arms inserts.

Like I said in my earlier post, properly trained in firearms use. That would include proper aim and other fundamentals for accurate fire.

danabwoodley — July 22, 2012 at 8:05 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Three's Company, two's allowed...

**Kaitlyn Leeb's Three Breasts Give Her The Weirdest Cleavage We've Ever Seen (PHOTOS)**

nailingit — July 22, 2012 at 9:23 p.m. ( | suggest removal

**The NRA has America living under the gun
"The arsenal of democracy has been transformed into the arsenal of death"**


Every year there are 30,000 gun deaths and perhaps as many as 300,000 gun-related assaults in the U.S. Firearm violence costs our country as much as $100 billion a year. Toys are regulated with greater care and safety concerns than guns.

We are a country which began with the forced subjugation into slavery of millions of Africans and the reliance on arms against Native Americans for its westward expansion. In truth, more settlers traveling the Oregon Trail died from accidental, self-inflicted gunshots wounds than Indian attacks – we were not only bloodthirsty but also inept.

Nonetheless, we have become so gun loving, so gun crazy, so blasé about home-grown violence that far more Americans have been casualties of domestic gunfire than have died in all our wars combined. In Arizona last year, just days after the Gabby Giffords shooting, sales of the weapon used in the slaughter – a 9 millimeter Glock semi-automatic pistol – doubled.

read more @

nailingit — July 22, 2012 at 9:37 p.m. ( | suggest removal

nailingit — July 22, 2012 at 10:11 p.m. ( | suggest removal

nailingit — July 22, 2012 at 9:37 p.m.

Your gun related death figures forgets to mention that the majority of them are intentionally self inflicted. If someone is truly trying to kill themselves, do you think outlawing the firearm would stop them? Trying to use the latest tragedy to push a political agenda? Does the anti gun lobby have no shame?

frobert — July 23, 2012 at 12:32 a.m. ( | suggest removal

nailingit — July 22, 2012 at 9:37 p.m

*rolling my eyes*

my question is-

what percentage of the 30k/300k crimes were committed with legally acquired and registered weapons by the documented owner?

How many of those weapons are illegal and not properly registered? If someone is intent on an illegal act, are they concerned with the legal status of their weapon?

Regulation and registration yes. Total ban, never.

danabwoodley — July 23, 2012 at 12:47 a.m. ( | suggest removal

DBW-What does it matter? Who are the "anti-gun" lobby anyway? Can't seem to find much on line. Who said anything about a total ban?

nailingit — July 23, 2012 at 8:02 a.m. ( | suggest removal

frobert- For once in your avatarian life pull it up and back up just one of your non-sensical claims.

*mention that the majority of them are intentionally self inflicted.*

nailingit — July 23, 2012 at 8:06 a.m. ( | suggest removal

nailingit — July 23, 2012 at 8:06 a.m.

frobert — July 23, 2012 at 9:50 a.m. ( | suggest removal


On the Paterno saga. All the good he has done has not been wasted on those he did good for. They still appreciate what he has done for them..

He did however help to cover up what Sandusky had done... That cannot be denied or go unpunished which is what has been done. He was not alone in the cover up and all those that were involved should be held accountable. I find it hard to believe that others on the staff did not know of what was going on... They should have all been let go and started over.. JMHO...

vanwadreamer — July 27, 2012 at 2:22 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Yo poodle - take a powder.

soapbox4u — July 31, 2012 at 2:53 p.m. ( | suggest removal

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