Open forum Sept 10-16

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Something local to pay attention to today.

Vancouver Chamber of Commerce, Identity Clark County, and The Columbian all spoke out against the upcoming C-Tran sales tax initiative to fund light rail Ops and Maintenance. These entities are all very much pro-light rail.

The Chamber of Commerce is supposed to release their alternate plan today - one they say will fund this O&M; without a sales tax.

They've already voiced opposition to other potential sources of funding - such as an employee head tax, and various other taxes on businesses.

One option still open is to create a Transportation Benefit District - either the County or Vancouver City could do this. This would allow them to impose a fee of up to $20 on vehicle tags, without going to the voters. City Councilman Jack Burkman notes this would be wrong, given that we don't have money identified to maintain roads, but....

Anyhow - this is likely to affect everyone's pocketbook, so you might want to pay attention. And this $2 - 2.5 million per year figure is a low ball one; C-Tran estimates start at $3.5 million per year, and rise a few hundred thousand annually.

roger — September 10, 2012 at 6:32 a.m. ( | suggest removal


roger — September 10, 2012 at 6:32 a.m

Roger, for the life of me, I can't figure out how maintenance can cost $3.5m per year for something new and only a mile long. How is that possible? Operations should pay for themselves with fares and if that doesn't cover it, it shouldn't be built.

hawkeye — September 10, 2012 at 7:43 a.m. ( | suggest removal


roger: Thanks for the heads-up reminder. Tri-Met has a self-employment tax for businesses (TMSET) in its transportation "benefit" district. My husband and I paid it for years when he operated an office in Portlandia and it is not a bargain.

New topic that fascinates me: Many NFL players are speaking out in favor of marriage equality. Chris Kluwe seems to have led the charge. As Chicago Sun-Times columnist Neil Steinberg states,

"I don’t want to spend the whole column quoting Kluwe, but he asks Burns a question that should be put to all fearful haters who believe a few lines in their particular faith’s special book will excuse their loathsome bias forever: “Why do you hate freedom? Why do you hate the fact that other people want a chance to live their lives and be happy, even though they may believe in something different than you, or act different than you?”

Now other NFL players are also speaking out. Which should remind the bigots-hiding-behind-Bibles that when you’ve lost pro athletes, you’ve lost. Freedom is a one-way street. Blacks don’t contemplate a return to slavery. Women don’t agonize whether getting the vote was a good or bad thing. Having fought their way out of the closet and tasted the joys of daily life, unafraid and unashamed, gay people are never going back. That’s just a fact. You can be among those who helped, or you can be a stumbling block, but the end result will be the same. Me, I went online and joined the Chris Kluwe Fan Club."

For the full column, check this out:

http://www.suntimes.com/news/steinberg/15039750-452/nfl-players-back-gay-marriage-america.html#.UE1N11N3-O8.twitter

manthou — September 10, 2012 at 8:01 a.m. ( | suggest removal


*manthou- Religious bigots have also lost their argument when it comes to gays and military readiness. It's all about freedom. It's striking when those who tout "God" given freedoms are the first ones who want to suppress them.*

In the fierce debate that led up to President Barack Obama's repeal last September of Don't Ask Don't Tell, the 1993 law that banned gay and lesbian service members from serving openly in the military, supporters of the law warned that a repeal would have disastrous consequences for the armed forces. One letter, signed by more than 1,000 military officers, claimed that a repeal would undermine recruiting efforts, negatively affect "troop readiness" and "eventually break the All-Volunteer Force."

One year later, the first academic study of the military's new open-service policy has found there have been no negative consequences whatsoever.

The study, published Monday by the Palm Center, a research branch of the Williams Institute at University of California Los Angeles Law School, found that there has been no overall negative impact on military readiness, unit cohesion, recruitment, retention or morale.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/09/10/dont-ask-dont-tell-study_n_1868892.html

nailingit — September 10, 2012 at 8:49 a.m. ( | suggest removal


nailingit — September 10, 2012 at 8:49 a.m.

The President did not repeal don't ask don't tell, it was within his power to change the policy but he refused. It was Congress that overturned it. At the point that the president finally allowed congress' orders to be carried out, the policy was already overturned due to a lawsuit by the Log Cabin Republicans.

frobert — September 10, 2012 at 9:01 a.m. ( | suggest removal


manthou — September 10, 2012 at 8:01 a.m.

We should all stand up for marriage equality and get the Government out of our relationships. The republicans believe that gay marriage will be the downfall of society. Their position is only supported by democrats who refuse to acknowledge that government doesn't belong in our bedrooms. Basically, if the government has the authority to ban polygamy, why don't they have the same authority to ban gay marriage?

frobert — September 10, 2012 at 9:06 a.m. ( | suggest removal


manthou — September 10, 2012 at 8:01 a.m

From what I understand from friends who are gay/lesbian is the reasons they want the equality are mainly taxes, health insurance and social security benefits.

Taxes from what they all have explained are, a civil union allows them to file as a couple for state but not federal.

Health insurance again state allowed if governed by the state, but if governed by federal it is not unless the employer choose it to cover extended benefits.

Social Security survivor benefits same sex couples are not eligible.

Immigration, couples in same sex unions don't have the same rights as married.

Military, only opposite-sex spouses have a right to pensions, compensation for service-related deaths, medical care, housing and the right to burial in veterans’ cemeteries.

ELISI — September 10, 2012 at 9:23 a.m. ( | suggest removal


fro- *Thanks for the input. Your comment caused me to review the numbers, and the gutsy act of our President in the face of much opposition.*

..
With his signature today, the President put in motion the end of a policy that has hurt our military as a whole, that has forced thousands of those who serve to do so under a cloud of anxiety and isolation, and that has stood as a symbol of the barriers to unity and equality in our country.

The President stressed for the sake of those in uniform now that he, the Defense Secretary and the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs still need to certify that the military has made any needed preparations for the transition before repeal goes into effect, but also gave this assurance: “I have spoken to every one of the service chiefs and they are all committed to implementing this change swiftly and efficiently. We are not going to be dragging our feet to get this done.” He went on to express complete confidence that those who serve in our military will easily adapt, quoting one service member who contributed to the Pentagon’s exhaustive study:

As one special operations warfighter said during the Pentagon’s review -- this was one of my favorites -- it echoes the experience of Lloyd Corwin decades earlier: “We have a gay guy in the unit. He’s big, he’s mean, he kills lots of bad guys.” (Laughter.) “No one cared that he was gay.” (Laughter.) And I think that sums up perfectly the situation. (Applause.)

http://www.whitehouse.gov/blog/2010/12/22/president-signs-repeal-dont-ask-dont-tell-out-many-we-are-one

The years-long legislative debate over the policy came to an end Saturday as senators voted 65 to 31 to send the repeal legislation to President Obama, who campaigned on a pledge to eliminate the ban on gays serving openly. Eight Republicans joined 57 members of the Democratic caucus; four senators did not vote.

"It is time to close this chapter in our history," Obama said later in a statement. "It is time to recognize that sacrifice, valor and integrity are no more defined by sexual orientation than they are by race or gender, religion or creed."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/12/18/AR2010121801729.html

nailingit — September 10, 2012 at 9:25 a.m. ( | suggest removal


Speaking of our Military, if anyone missed last night's 60 minutes it was pretty special.

**Mark Owen '60 Minutes' Interview: Former Navy SEAL Who Participated In Bin Laden Raid Offers Details About Operation (VIDEO)**

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/09/09/mark-owen-60-minutes-interview_n_1869417.html

nailingit — September 10, 2012 at 9:33 a.m. ( | suggest removal


and manthou, I might add not all of us who believe in God and the Bible are bigots who hide behind the Bible.

I have met more non-believers that are race/gay/lesbian haters than those who are believers.

God does tells us to love the person, but hate the sin.

Myself I see a person, a human being, I don't see the color of skin nor do I see their sexual preference.

In Martin Luther Kings own words..."We are ALL God's little children"

ELISI — September 10, 2012 at 9:38 a.m. ( | suggest removal


SAN FRANCISCO (AP) -- The Obama administration has asked an appeals court to reconsider its order last week demanding an immediate halt to the enforcement of the ban on openly gay troops in the military.

The federal government filed the emergency motion Thursday in response to the U.S. 9th Circuit Court of Appeals' decision to lift its stay of a lower court's ruling last year that found the ban, known as "Don't Ask, Don't Tell," unconstitutional.

The Justice Department urged the court to issue a decision by the end of the day Friday.

Last year, the gay rights group Log Cabin Republicans filed suit against the Department of Justice, calling DADT unconstitutional. The group was able to persuade a lower court judge to declare the ban unconstitutional

http://www.pridesource.com/article.html?article=48112

frobert — September 10, 2012 at 9:43 a.m. ( | suggest removal


Elisi: I never accused anyone or generalized about God-fearing folks. I reproduced an opinion, with a link, to give you the source document.

You might consider emailing your objections to the columnist instead. :)

manthou — September 10, 2012 at 9:56 a.m. ( | suggest removal


It's unfortunate Republican leaders won't let the Log Cabin group's voices be heard, such as at the RNC. It's clear whose party's tent is larger when embracing LGBT equality.

**Excluded From Inclusion**

WHAT the Republicans painstakingly constructed here was meant to look like the biggest of tents. And still they couldn’t spare so much as a sleeping bag’s worth of space for the likes of me.

Women were welcomed. During the prime evening television hours, the convention stage was festooned with them, and when they weren’t at the microphone, they were front and center in men’s remarks. Paul Ryan and Mitt Romney both gushed about their moms in tributes as tactical as they were teary.

Latinos were plentiful and flexed their Spanish — “En América, todo es posible,” said Susana Martinez, the New Mexico governor — despite an “English First” plank in the party’s regressive platform.

And while one preconvention poll suggested that roughly zero percent of African-Americans support Romney, Republicans found several prominent black leaders to testify for him. Condoleezza Rice, the former secretary of state, delivered what will surely be remembered as the convention’s most stirring and substantive remarks, purged of catcalls and devoid of slickly rendered fibs.

But you certainly didn’t see anyone openly gay on the stage in Tampa. More to the point, you didn’t hear mention of gays and lesbians. Scratch that: Mike Huckabee, who has completed a ratings-minded transformation from genial pol to dyspeptic pundit, made a derisive reference to President Obama’s support for same-sex marriage. We were thus allowed a fleeting moment inside the tent, only to be flogged and sent back out into the cold.

It was striking not because a convention or political party should make a list of minority groups and dutifully put a check mark beside each. That’s an often hollow bow to political correctness.

It was striking because the Republicans went so emphatically far, in terms of stagecraft and storytelling, to profess inclusiveness, and because we gays have been in the news rather a lot over the last year or so, as the march toward marriage equality picked up considerable velocity. We’re a part of the conversation. And our exile from it in Tampa contradicted the high-minded “we’re one America” sentiments that pretty much every speaker spouted.
..

Romney exemplifies the party’s cowardice on this front, its continued deference to the religious extremists who get king-size beds and down-stuffed duvets in the tent.

Read more @

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/02/opinion/sunday/bruni-excluded-from-inclusion.html?pagewanted=all

nailingit — September 10, 2012 at 10:29 a.m. ( | suggest removal


langenthal you are missed! What did you think of the two conventions?

nailingit — September 10, 2012 at 10:34 a.m. ( | suggest removal


Roger, I saw your exchange with Mr. Stevens. Interesting thought process on his part. He used to come after me regardless of the subject, I finally had to tell him (several times) to leave me alone. He's like an attack dog that gets distracted.

hawkeye — September 10, 2012 at 10:46 a.m. ( | suggest removal


roger — September 10, 2012 at 6:32 a.m.

Hey Roger...what do you think of this proposal???

All members of Identity Clark County have to pay a 3% membership fee to fund light rail into Vancouver. I figure this...it's their companies who are dependent on freight mobility and if they're so gung ho in having the wasted utilization of important metals to lay down track and whatnot...why not have THEM pay for it? I'm all for Bus transit before loot rail makes it into our midst.

goldenoldie — September 10, 2012 at 12:57 p.m. ( | suggest removal


hawkeye — September 10, 2012 at 10:46 a.m.,

My favorite on that side is Robert Dean. He and I are allies against light rail, so I don't call him on this. About half the time, his links don't go anywhere. And just about anytime he cites an article on Lew Waters website, its one he wrote himself. I accused him of being Basil Seal once.

roger — September 10, 2012 at 1:11 p.m. ( | suggest removal


goldenoldie — September 10, 2012 at 12:57 p.m.,

It won't work. They want to reap the benefits while having us pay.

Royce Pollard has quietly shown back up on the scene. (Not that he was ever gone, but his name is popping up again.) He's one of the people selected to write the Pro side for the sales tax initiative. Wonder if that'll still happen? No proof - just an old rumor he was snapping up properties along the I5 route the rail was originally supposed to travel - but I think he's one of those people who have staked their bank on light rail.

roger — September 10, 2012 at 1:19 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Roger,

So if these schmucks figure out a way to pay for O&M; on the rail without a tax raise, according to Debbie Peterson, then C-tran is SOL on their part because the least they can tax is 1/10 of 1% which would exceed their needs and they can only ask for what they actually need.

http://www.columbian.com/news/2012/se...

hawkeye — September 10, 2012 at 2:07 p.m. ( | suggest removal


This is just sad. So much nasty division. And this guy is a Republican! Given Obama's popularity rating, above 50%, and likability rating hopefully folks will make up for it.

**Scott Van Duzer, the Obama hugger: Shop facing boycott**

The owner of a Florida pizza shop says people are boycotting his business because he bear-hugged President Barack Obama on Sunday.

“People are saying a lot of bad things and boycotting my restaurant,” Scott Van Duzer, 46, told POLITICO. “There’s no middle line anymore, and that’s exactly what’s wrong with our country right now.”

Read more: http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0912/80998.html#ixzz266SPC1wy

nailingit — September 10, 2012 at 2:10 p.m. ( | suggest removal


**CNN Poll: Obama up six points over Romney**

(CNN) – A new survey indicates President Barack Obama moved up four points following the Democratic National Convention last week, and now has a six point advantage over his Republican challenger Mitt Romney.

According to a CNN/ORC International Poll released Monday, 52% of likely voters nationwide back the president, compared to 46% for Romney. Just before the convention in Charlotte, North Carolina, Obama was tied with Romney 48%-48%.

"The Democratic convention was fairly well received, particularly in comparison to the GOP meeting the previous week in Tampa," CNN Polling Director Keating Holland said.

The convention energized–at least temporarily– the Democratic base, as more Democrats (59%) than Republicans (57%) seemed to be enthusiastic about voting. This marks a turnaround from last week, when the number of Republicans who said they were extremely or very enthusiastic about voting was six points higher than for Democrats.

While the survey shows several changes coming out of the last two weeks, it's important to note that post-convention bounces have often proven to be temporary in past elections. A candidate may get a mild boost after a party gathering, but the question is whether the White House hopeful can sustain the momentum in the following weeks.

"The advantage of going second is you get the last word," an Obama campaign official told CNN reporters covering the Charlotte convention last week.

In fact convention bounces have become increasingly modest in the 21st century, so much so that Obama's four-point boost is considered high compared to other candidates in the last eight years. Romney's support increased only one point after this year's GOP convention, and Sen. John McCain gained no ground at all after the 2008 Republican event.

This year's Democratic event wiped away some of Romney's gains on personal qualities. The Republican nominee's favorable rating increased to 53% after the GOP convention, but fell to 48% one week later after the Democratic event. Meanwhile, Obama rose to 57% in the last week, his highest mark since 2010.

Obama also took away Romney's lead on leadership for the country's future. Now 51% of likely voters think Obama has a more optimistic vision for the country's future, compared to Romney at 41%. Last week, however, 43% said Obama was more optimistic, while 47% said the same about Romney.

Another takeaway from the two conventions was that Obama seemed to come out as the candidate with a more specific plan to help the country. Before the Republican event, 45% thought Romney was more likely to have a clear plan, while only 39% felt the same about the president. Now the two have switched places, with 45% saying Obama has a clear plan, compared 39% saying the same about Romney.

Read more @

http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2012/09/10/cnn-poll-obama-up-six-points-over-romney/

nailingit — September 10, 2012 at 2:34 p.m. ( | suggest removal


manthou — September 10, 2012 at 9:56 a.m

Wow, what's with such a sour puss attitude?

I never accused you of what you posted, I was simply stating how I live/believe, my experience and those I associate with.
I wanted others to know people like Neil Steinberg, tend to lump
people into groups. I see it as he was saying that anyone that believes in God and believes that the Bible is God's words written by man are all hateful fear-monger bigots. Which is so very far from the truth.
That is like saying all Christians are like the Westboro Baptists people. Why is it whenever Christians stand up and voice what they believe in they are tagged with words like "bigots, haters, fear-mongers, but let a non-believer do it and it's considered freedom of speech?

ELISI — September 10, 2012 at 2:41 p.m. ( | suggest removal



Last week I posted an article about Romney implying President Obama would take God out of our currency. (ridiculous but true) Romney's speech in Virginia pandering to the far right had Pat Robertson sitting directly behind him as a .. show of faith.

But remember, it's all about..

*''The founding document of the United States of America acknowledges the Lordship of Jesus Christ because we are a Christian nation.''*
—Pat Robertson

Robertson is a "Christian" icon for those on the right and his views represent the evangelicals perfectly. Much of what's wrong in our country can be had at the doorstep of intolorant so-called "Christian" conservatives. Here are a few quotes from one Romney deems so important to be seen with. Mostly concerning women and gays.

*''The key in terms of mental ability is chess. There's never been a woman Grand Master chess player. Once you get one, then I'll buy some of the feminism.''*
—Pat Robertson

*''Planned Parenthood is teaching kids to fornicate, teaching people to have adultery, every kind of bestiality, homosexuality, lesbianism and everything that the Bible condemns.*
—Pat Robertson

*''I would warn Orlando that you're right in the way of some serious hurricanes, and I don't think I'd be waving those flags in God's face if I were you, This is not a message of hate -- this is a message of redemption. But a condition like this will bring about the destruction of your nation. It'll bring about terrorist bombs; it'll bring earthquakes, tornadoes, and possibly a meteor.''*
—Pat Robertson, on ''gay days'' at Disneyworld

*''I know one man who was impotent who gave AIDS to his wife and the only thing they did was kiss.''*
—Pat Robertson

*''The feminist agenda is not about equal rights for women. It is about a socialist, anti-family political movement that encourages women to leave their husbands, kill their children, practice witchcraft, destroy capitalism and become lesbians.''*
—Pat Robertson

*''There is no such thing as separation of church and state in the Constitution. It is a lie of the Left and we are not going to take it anymore.''*
—Pat Robertson

*''It is the Democratic Congress, the liberal-biased media and the homosexuals who want to destroy all Christians.''*
—Pat Robertson

*''Many of those people involved in Adolf Hitler were Satanists, many were homosexuals - the two things seem to go together.''*
—Pat Robertson

*''How can there be peace when drunkards, drug dealers, communists, atheists, New Age worshipers of Satan, secular humanists, oppressive dictators, greedy money changers, revolutionary assassins, adulterers, and homosexuals are on top?''*
—Pat Robertson

*''The flooding of New Orleans is a sign that God is tired of seeing his creation mocked by the Mardi Gras and its perverted display of debauchery and exposed breasts.''*
—Pat Robertson

nailingit — September 10, 2012 at 4:18 p.m. ( | suggest removal


frobert @ 9:43- BTW it appears the article you sourced is well over a year old.

nailingit — September 10, 2012 at 4:33 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Care to explain how you know what each and every one of us are doing in the course of the day? the week? the month? the year? Just because some of us don't make public what we're doing in our private lives, doesn't mean we aren't being proactive.

goldenoldie — September 7, 2012 at 7:38 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal | Ignore User )

Just like you, sit here all day long, day in and day out, trying to troll in on others conversations while extolling the things of "goldie", real proactive there sweetie.

soapbox4u — September 10, 2012 at 4:45 p.m. ( | suggest removal


nailingit — September 10, 2012 at 4:33 p.m.

"BTW it appears the article you sourced is well over a year old"

...and we were discussing a subject from well over a year ago.

frobert — September 10, 2012 at 4:48 p.m. ( | suggest removal


''The flooding of New Orleans is a sign that God is tired of seeing his creation mocked by the Mardi Gras and its perverted display of debauchery and exposed breasts.'' —Pat Robertson

nailingit — September 10, 2012 at 4:18 p.m.

I thought he just wasn't a Drew Brees fan.

hawkeye — September 10, 2012 at 4:55 p.m. ( | suggest removal


frobert- Not criticizing. I just wanted to lend clarity to an article with so many timelines given it's brevity. i.e.

*its order last week*

*emergency motion Thursdaylower court's ruling last year*

*decision by the end of the day Friday.*

*Last year, the gay rights*

nailingit — September 10, 2012 at 5:06 p.m. ( | suggest removal


But....But.....Butt.....

Wouldn't exposed breasts be "natural"? As in nature, as in wasn't born with clothes on, as in Adam & Eve?

OH Pat, I'm confused!!!!

hawkeye — September 10, 2012 at 5:06 p.m. ( | suggest removal


haweye @ 5:06- :) I think breasts of all sizes and shapes are not only natural, but .. wonderful, as well as being purposeful. Pat is a complete nut but revered in evangelical circles.

I bet if you were to ask him about homosexuality he would say (as stated earlier by elisi @ 9:38..no offense intended)...

*God does tells us to love the person, but hate the sin.* This type of hate with a justification rider is/has been drilled into evangelicals since they've been old enough to sit in Ted Haggard's lap.

nailingit — September 10, 2012 at 5:18 p.m. ( | suggest removal


...but Pat Robertson has come out in favor of initiative 502.

frobert — September 10, 2012 at 5:34 p.m. ( | suggest removal


fro, must be his glaucoma acting up.

hawkeye — September 10, 2012 at 5:56 p.m. ( | suggest removal


*This type of hate with a justification rider is/has been drilled into evangelicals since they've been old enough to sit in Ted Haggard's lap.*

That remark was totally uncalled for and shows ignorance and hatred on your part.

As I said earlier..I have met more non-believers that are haters/bigots than those who are believers.
But yet they stand on a platform saying they are more compassionate, more tolerant then those they oppose. Wow, just wow..

ELISI — September 10, 2012 at 6:08 p.m. ( | suggest removal


elisi- As I said before, no offense intended.

*That remark was totally uncalled for and shows ignorance and hatred on your part.*

What you are referring to was a direct quote, word for word by you. No need to pretend feeling victimized. Again, I quoted you word for word.

You claim to "hate the sin", when many others feel no "sin" is involved. It's sometimes hard for people to look their own ideologies and prejudices in the face and hold themselves accountable. Most try and obfuscate & twist in order to justify, such as your statement...*That remark was totally uncalled for and shows ignorance and hatred on your part.*

Be that as it may I meant no offense, I was just using your own words as an example. Sorry to have upset you. Did not mean to invite a "sour puss attitude".

nailingit — September 10, 2012 at 6:24 p.m. ( | suggest removal


*...but Pat Robertson has come out in favor of initiative 502.*

frobert — September 10, 2012 at 5:34 p.m.

Even the blind squirrel finds the nut sometimes.

nailingit — September 10, 2012 at 6:26 p.m. ( | suggest removal


It's official: Nicki Minaj did not endorse Mitt Romney in a recent rap.

The flamboyant rapper confirmed Monday on Twitter that she was taking literary license when she referenced the Republican nominee for president. Some took her words to mean she was backing President Barack Obama's opponent.

Not Obama, though, who told radio station WPYO-FM in Orlando, Fla., that he didn't think it was a Romney plug, adding: "She likes to play different characters."

In her tweet, Minaj thanked Obama for understanding "my creative humor and sarcasm," then noted: "the smart ones always do ... (asterisk)sends love & support."

Minaj rapped the verse in question while making an appearance on the Lil Wayne mix tape track "Mercy."

A message sent to Minaj's publicist was not immediately returned.

hawkeye — September 10, 2012 at 6:31 p.m. ( | suggest removal


roger — September 10, 2012 at 1:19 p.m.

Yeah, I think you're right. It's obvious they're up to something, though. Thanks for the forewarning, btw.

goldenoldie — September 10, 2012 at 6:38 p.m. ( | suggest removal


***These boys is barkin' up the wrong tree!***

A Taliban spokesman said Monday that the terror group would use "all our strength" to kidnap or kill the U.K's Prince Harry, who has just begun serving a four-month tour of duty as a chopper pilot in Afghanistan.

"We are using all our strength to get rid of him, either by killing or kidnapping," Taliban spokesman Zabihullah Mujahid told Reuters by phone. "We have informed our commanders in Helmand to do whatever they can to eliminate him."

Mujahid made the same threat in an interview with Agence France Presse, saying the Taliban had a "high-value plan" to get the prince. "It is not important for us to kidnap him," he said. "We will target him and we will kill him."

Prince Harry, known as Captain Wales in the British Army, is stationed at Camp Bastion in Helmand province, on the front line. Harry also served a tour of duty in Afghanistan in 2008, though it was cut short because of publicity. The 27-year-old son of Prince Charles and the late Princess Diana is third in line to the throne, after his father and his older brother William.

The British government has declined comment on the threats against Harry, but NATO Secretary-General Anders Fogh Rasmussen said he was not worried.

"That's not a matter of concern," said Rasmussen as a press conference in Brussels. "We do everything we can to protect all our troops deployed to Afghanistan, whatever might be their personal background."

hawkeye — September 10, 2012 at 6:42 p.m. ( | suggest removal


ooooohgoodgrief!!!

You guys...you're banking on televangelists as your source of attacks against Christians??? Take a bit of time and check out Matthew 7:15, would ya!

Puhlease....put down the remote!!! Let go of your computer mouse...
and get some natural vitamin D, would ya!!!

goldenoldie — September 10, 2012 at 6:44 p.m. ( | suggest removal


nailing, why is it you have such emotions on this when my friends do not? Some go to my church, some don't, they all know what is in the teachings. Their sexual preference isn't for me, mine isn't for them, does it mean we can't love each other as friends? We can't be friends, can't help each other out as friends?
I do not oppose same sex marriage. I will never ever tell any gay/lesbian or even bi person they are evil cause of their preference that is not for me to say.
So please do not lump all Christians together, we can and do think for ourselves..well some of us do.
Every church has trouble makers and fake Christians that give those like me a bad name..those are the ones I am afraid you are listening too.

As far Pat Robertson goes..he should have retired back during Desert Storm..he showed sign of Alzheimers then.
The rest of the on TV preachers, well I feel for those who watch them. Billy Graham is the only one I have really ever watched on TV.

ELISI — September 10, 2012 at 6:45 p.m. ( | suggest removal


hawkeye @ 6:42- Maybe they could lure him into a trap with promises of a free cam and Vegas strippers. :)

nailingit — September 10, 2012 at 7:01 p.m. ( | suggest removal


**Bill Maher: Tom Brokaw helps birtherism**

HBO host and Obama donor Bill Maher has accused journalists like NBC's Tom Brokaw of encouraging the birther movement by failing to label it as racist.

In a blog post endorsing Chris Matthews' recent on-air attack against RNC chairman Reince Priebus during MSNBC's Morning Joe, Maher accused Brokaw and other reporters of stoking the coals of birtherism by championing "'balance' over objectivity," citing Brokaw's attempt to defend Mitt Romney's remark about his birth certificate as an "awkward joke."

"How did [birtherism] grow to the point where half of Republican primary voters believed it? It wasn’t just the silence of Republican leaders, it was the failure of people like Tom Brokaw to just dismiss it as racism from the beginning," Maher wrote.

"People like him are always championing 'balance' over objectivity," he continued. "They have to bring everything back to a discussion about how 'both sides' are guilty, instead of doing his job as a referee. If every single journalist just simply labeled birtherism what it obviously is — racism — the cancer wouldn't have infected half the party. Maybe 25% or so, but most would be like, 'Okay, this isn't socially respectable.'"

"Every journalist knows [birtherism] comes from a racist place, so why can't they all be as no-b------t about it as Chris Matthews?" Maher wrote.

In his attack on Priebus during the Republican National Convention, Matthews accused Romney of playing the race card for referencing his birth certificate and airing welfare ads against President Obama. In an interview with POLITICO at the time, and in subsequent television appearances, Matthews charged Republicans with "dividing the country along racial lines."

http://www.politico.com/blogs/media/2012/09/bill-maher-tom-brokaw-helps-birtherism-135085.html?hp=l7

nailingit — September 10, 2012 at 7:22 p.m. ( | suggest removal


frobert — September 10, 2012 at 9:01 a.m.

Also, the repeal was an added provision of the Defense Authorization Act. And it wasn't repealed last September, the law was signed in May. DoD just put it into effect in September following arduous 4 hr training given to every single service member wearing a uniform at that time. Once all services report 100% complete on training, the clock started. 60 days following that report of completion, DADT was effectively gone. This was 20 Sep 2011.

It is true that we haven't had any issues without the policy, but not every little incident that happens makes headlines. There may have been relatively minor incidents that are not getting media attention.

I suppose there are a lot of folks happy over the erradication of Chap 15. Personally, it affects me not at all. It just means that I have to be aware that my seemingly harmless remark relating to sexuality may just piss someone off now.

danabwoodley — September 10, 2012 at 7:56 p.m. ( | suggest removal


ELISI — September 10, 2012 at 9:38 a.m.

Thank you ELISI. I just wish everyone could see that. I get really frustrated that I give an opinion and some immediately assume I am bigoted in some way.

danabwoodley — September 10, 2012 at 8:01 p.m. ( | suggest removal


nailingit — September 10, 2012 at 7:22 p.m.

I have stated before that I do not support the "birther" movement at all. It is a complete waste of time and other resources that, even if they prove what they are claiming, at this point will not make any difference what so ever. But racist?

It seems that everything anyone has to say that is not blindly supporting everything this president says is deemed as racist. Why?

If we use this example, then every person out there that isn't supporting Romney is racist against whites, or anti Morman, or hates anyone in the New England states.

Can we finally get past these petty differences already?

danabwoodley — September 10, 2012 at 8:19 p.m. ( | suggest removal


DBW- What an odd post. I'm not Bill Maher and you're not Tom Brokaw. You are not mentioned anywhere in this cut and paste article from politico. It makes no difference to me if you support the birther movement or not. Your premise is just as strange. I suppose the birther movement started out to promote egalitarianism. Anyway...carry on.

nailingit — September 10, 2012 at 8:55 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Let me attempt to introduce some levity at the end of the day.

A lawyer friend tweeted this short-but-oh-so-sweet LegalBlogWatch to me today to cheer me up. "Things could be much worse," he said. "You could be facing this":

http://legalblogwatch.typepad.com/legal_blog_watch/2012/09/the-people-have-spoken-with-over-1000-votes-recorded-to-date-over-62-of-voters-say-yes-to-the-question-of-whether-willy-t.html

manthou — September 10, 2012 at 9:03 p.m. ( | suggest removal


*God does tells us to love the person, but hate the sin*

Okay people, I am going to clarify this for you. Yes this is not in the Bible, although, if you look at *John 3:16* *God hates sin, but God so loves the sinner, that He sent His only begotten Son in that whomever believes in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life.* Romans 5:8 also suggests that above quote of hating sin and loving one another. This mentioning was said by Ellen G. White- founder of SDA.

And for Pat Robertson and some of his interesting quotes, NOT all Christian's follow that or believe what he says. And for people to assume that is all us Christians believe in, I guarantee you (any of you) that you are 100% wrong. For some who like to bash in Christianity or any type of other Religions, you can do that all you want because it is okay to be scared of what is not known out there. Isaiah 41:10, Matthew 5:43-44.

mxfun118 — September 10, 2012 at 9:19 p.m. ( | suggest removal


manthou- A new slant to the animal rights movement. Sounds like a cockatoo or three are involved. All over a fowl mouth!

nailingit — September 10, 2012 at 9:25 p.m. ( | suggest removal


nailingit: Puns intended, I am sure.

I will NEVER complain about a neighbor again! I will always remind myself: "It could be Willy....

manthou — September 10, 2012 at 9:36 p.m. ( | suggest removal


DBW- Since you seem to take this subject so personally and often speak of it, perhaps a little introspection is needed. Bill Maher has spoken several times on " The New Racism is Denying Racism" theme. Here is a link or two that you might identify with and perhaps provide you some insight. I haven't experienced racism as I'm a white male, but I've seen my share and understand many of a different color have. Given your occupation and working with such a diverse workforce, hard to imagine you haven't seen your share also. Anyway, in the spirit of giving I hope these help.

http://www.hlntv.com/video/2012/03/27/bill-maher-talks-trayvon-martin-new-racism

http://www.angelfire.com/dc/antiracism/

nailingit — September 10, 2012 at 9:39 p.m. ( | suggest removal


manthou- And the cockatoo's name just had to be Willy! :))

nailingit — September 10, 2012 at 9:42 p.m. ( | suggest removal


mxfun118 — September 10, 2012 at 9:19 p.m.

Uh, which bible was that from (John 3:16) cause if I remember that being POUNDED into my head correctly back when I was 10, that ain't it. Of course they could have rewritten it again in the last 50 years.

hawkeye — September 10, 2012 at 9:45 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Someone should tell Presidential candidate Mitt Romney, before he parades around Pat Robertson (also a past presidential candidate for the Republican party) again, that Pat is so ill thought of by the conservative movement he is pandering to. :))

And why we're at it someone should re-write Wikipedia about him! :)

Marion Gordon "Pat" Robertson (born March 22, 1930)[1] is a media mogul, television evangelist, ex-Baptist minister and businessman who politically aligns himself with the Christian Right in the United States.

He is the founder of numerous organizations and corporations, including the American Center for Law & Justice (ACLJ), the Christian Broadcasting Network (CBN), the Christian Coalition, Flying Hospital, International Family Entertainment Inc., Operation Blessing International Relief and Development Corporation, CBN Asia and Regent University.[1][2] He is the host of The 700 Club, a Christian TV program airing on channels throughout the United States and on CBN network affiliates worldwide.[1]

The son of U.S. Senator A. Willis Robertson, Robertson is a Southern Baptist and was active as an ordained minister with that denomination for many years, but holds to a charismatic theology not traditionally common among Southern Baptists. He unsuccessfully campaigned to become the Republican Party's nominee in the 1988 presidential election.[3] As a result of his seeking political office, he no longer serves in an official role for any church. His media and financial resources make him a recognized, influential, and controversial public voice for conservative Christianity in the United States.[4]

nailingit — September 10, 2012 at 9:51 p.m. ( | suggest removal


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Above all, criminal injury compensation lawyers specifically help in determining the compensation figure. The quantity varies from situation to situation also it is dependent upon the gravity in the injury which willfigure out the fate in the case. Thus, a lawyer’s support is inevitable in bringing justice towards victim in the end.

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bustking — September 10, 2012 at 9:55 p.m. ( | suggest removal


My reason for my post wasn't about me being called a racist, though I have. And I am not trying to deny that racism exists. I am trying to say, when are we going to get past this?

Yes, I have seen much in my career that is based on racism, and sexism, and bigotry toward other religions. And each and every time I ask, when are we going to get past this.

I will also throw out there something that many will deny. I, as a white christian male, have been a victim of such discrimination as well. I have been alienated multiple times for my skin color and ethnicity. One time I did make the attempt to file a complaint. I was told that making such a claim makes me a racist.

So now, I just let it roll. And I continue to ask the question, when are we going to get past this?

I still say that there are publicly endorsed activities that do nothing more than accentuate the differences. I believe they fuel resentment. This resentment helps to continue the attitudes that are racism and other discriminations.

So I just return to the old slogan: Not special treatment, just equal treatment.

danabwoodley — September 10, 2012 at 10 p.m. ( | suggest removal


**nailingit — September 10, 2012 at 4:18 p.m.**

*"Robertson is a "Christian" icon for those on the right and his views represent the evangelicals perfectly."*

and you know this...how? are/were you a member of this group? have special studies in this area...?

*Much of what's wrong in our country can be had at the doorstep of intolorant so-called "Christian" conservatives*

ya know, it's funny. seems like the only reich-style statements around here aren't coming from your target above, but from those tolerant liberals that demand christians abandon their faith - or else.

being catholic, i have no issue with or against mr. robertson. but the hate coming from *your* posts....well, that the ground upon which violence grows.

DeeLittle — September 10, 2012 at 10:49 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Interesting definition of hate you have "dee". I wondered when your avatar would show.

*from those tolerant liberals that demand christians abandon their faith - or else.*

Your statement is delusional and without basis.

*but the hate coming from your posts*

Just another unsubstantiated drive by without meaning. Solid gold! Trolling with this avatar fairs you no better.

nailingit — September 10, 2012 at 10:56 p.m. ( | suggest removal


9/11 is always a reminder of a Bush Presidency that failed on so many levels. It's always sad to hear the right wing rhetoric of "at least Bush kept us safe". I suppose, if you don't count 9/11...

The Deafness Before the Storm
By KURT EICHENWALD
Published: September 10, 2012

On Aug. 6, 2001, President George W. Bush received a classified review of the threats posed by Osama bin Laden and his terrorist network, Al Qaeda. That morning’s “presidential daily brief” — the top-secret document prepared by America’s intelligence agencies — featured the now-infamous heading: “Bin Laden Determined to Strike in U.S.” A few weeks later, on 9/11, Al Qaeda accomplished that goal.

On April 10, 2004, the Bush White House declassified that daily brief — and only that daily brief — in response to pressure from the 9/11 Commission, which was investigating the events leading to the attack. Administration officials dismissed the document’s significance, saying that, despite the jaw-dropping headline, it was only an assessment of Al Qaeda’s history, not a warning of the impending attack. While some critics considered that claim absurd, a close reading of the brief showed that the argument had some validity.

That is, unless it was read in conjunction with the daily briefs preceding Aug. 6, the ones the Bush administration would not release. While those documents are still not public, I have read excerpts from many of them, along with other recently declassified records, and come to an inescapable conclusion: the administration’s reaction to what Mr. Bush was told in the weeks before that infamous briefing reflected significantly more negligence than has been disclosed. In other words, the Aug. 6 document, for all of the controversy it provoked, is not nearly as shocking as the briefs that came before it.

Read more @

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/11/opinion/the-bush-white-house-was-deaf-to-9-11-warnings.html?_r=0

nailingit — September 10, 2012 at 11:04 p.m. ( | suggest removal


**nail...**

it's a pattern of your's that you attack personally ("delusional") anyone who makes a post which goes beyond some allowable boundary in your mind.

the next thing you do is mock them with vague assertions that they have nothing upon which to base their opinions except their own thinking, as though that's some kind of damning indictment.

then you try to bend their words back so they're not really saying anything about you, they're revealing their own defects which your superior insight caught.

i don't care what others think about me, nail. calling me a 'troll', etc. i'm a veteran of firefights with the pro's, and you're no pro. if only you could control your emotions and act through intellect, your opinions could be so much more useful to others.

DeeLittle — September 10, 2012 at 11:35 p.m. ( | suggest removal


**nail....**

fwiw, you have every right to your opinions, whether they are backed up by anything or not. they're just as valid as elise's, goldies' or dana's.

you've got nothing to prove or defend here. *we are interested in what you think*. not huff-po, or mahar or any other lib-progressive talking head.

if we want to know what they think, we'll read it. what do **you** believe? why do you believe it?

...no need to be defensive....

DeeLittle — September 10, 2012 at 11:49 p.m. ( | suggest removal


...then please "dee", compliment your observant post with a factual basis for stating...

*but from those tolerant liberals that demand christians abandon their faith - or else.*

Your verbiage changes quite a bit when you are riled up. At least you remembered not to use capitals at the beginning of each sentence. Usually this avatar doesn't play the emotion card you're accusing me of. Conversing in this forum has always been some sort of game for you. Please take me off your game list with this avatar (and others) once again and put me on "ignore" as this avatar claimed to have me on at one time.

I'm no "pro at firefights" like you "dee", nor do I care to be. I've given you way too much attention this time. Please don't expect it in the future. Time for you to move on.

Again, solid gold!

nailingit — September 10, 2012 at 11:56 p.m. ( | suggest removal


**dana**

i've seen real racism up close and lethal.

the label has become the new 'nazi'; used so much it's become meaningless.

and that's not a good thing. dr. king wasn't just a black civil rights leader: he was a man in time. he was sent here with a purpose.

those who love to show how liberal and progressive they are by attacking anyone not of like mind should actually *read* his works. *listen* to his speeches.

"i have a dream...that my children will live in a world where a man is judged NOT by the color of his skin, but by the content of his character."

he was **color-blind**.

a truly equal society is just that. endure the reverse discrimination and the attack labels...character is what counts.

DeeLittle — September 11, 2012 at 12:12 a.m. ( | suggest removal


Good to see Congresswoman Herrera-Beutler insisting on the voters of Clark County to be allowed to vote on the sales tax increase to pay for O&M; of light rail so that we can be heard. Apparently, if the voters vote no, she will not show support for the light rail segment of the crossing but still supports bridge replacement. Common sense approach...I couldn't agree with her more on this one. She IS listening to the people. Anyhow, this is obviously irritating ICC as well as the Chamber of Commerce.

As it should.

They have vested interests in this project going forward as it stands.

I see nothing wrong with the eventual replacement to a single-deck improvement, fully equipped with dedicated HOV lanes which could quite simply be converted into dedicated light rail service, only WHEN the need exceeds the price tag...as well as a center pedestrian/bike lane like I-205 Bridge. As it stands right now, the cost to construct a dedicated deck, rights of way and other expenses just for the use of light rail to Fort Vancouver Way with limited bike/pedestrian needs in yet another lower deck far exceeds the investment...and probably will for some time to come, given the economic indicators for our region are still so low. PLUS...with a single deck, the height restrictions will be eliminated and I truly believe the folks involved in the planning of this crossing will find more support by the majority of the community. The price tag would be much lower, most likely with available funding and less future burden on the taxpayers and commuters. I also believe a straight across-the-board, fixed $1 toll rather than the possibility of $7 each way would provide O&M; budgeting as well as future light rail needs for many years to come IF those in control of the toll funding would keep their eyes fixated ON the budget and not allow that money to disappear into other programs.

goldenoldie — September 11, 2012 at 7:07 a.m. ( | suggest removal


"...*I have to be aware that my seemingly harmless remark relating to sexuality may just piss someone off now.*"

danabwoodley — September 10, 2012 at 7:56 p.m.

That's the best you got out of 4 hrs or "arduous" training?

Wow....

mr_basil_seal — September 11, 2012 at 7:19 a.m. ( | suggest removal


Nailingit, I've been following your posts as well as manthou's and hawkeye's and other people's comments regarding religion for quite some time, now...have noticed some rather terse comments against people who express their beliefs which is our given right to discuss the subject whether we support or oppose each others' comments. I'd pointed out Matthew 7:15 (which states in general terms, depending on the version read *"Beware of False Prophets , which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves."*) to everyone in my attempt to have everyone remember something which we all can utilize whether we believe in the writes of faith or not. For those who refuse to accept this statement from a biblical standpoint, just remind yourselves of the "Little Red Riding Hood" story of our childhood...or Aesop's Fables "The Wolf in Sheep's Clothing." That "wolf" comes from all walks of faith...even in atheism. It's just that some "preachers" are more vocal than others. What is truly sad is this. It is because of this that the reputation of followers in the Christian faith...any faith for that matter is tarnished by those in opposition and negative labels are hoisted into the public eye. Sadly, there are those who publicly preach the word on television or on line who are only out for a buck...the wolves preying on the flocks of sheep.

Of course, in the world of politics...every single politician out there is an opportunist, looking to gain that edge of popularity. Romney is no different from Obama on that note. They'll gain the support from whatever entity gets them votes yet in the end, they're shaking hands in agreement with each other that the best man won and they all get back to work. Go figure.

What I'm trying to say is it's that "sheep's clothing" which blinds the people from the truth from any perspective. Maybe that's why those of us who believe comments like yours, manthou's and hawkeye's (and others) are attacking faith in general ...because it is such a touchy subject. You are only showing what is behind that "sheep's clothing" but the blinders remain...but you cannot condemn an entire religious entity because of those "wolves in sheep's clothing." In these trying times, folks are looking for the truth...they're building on their faith and their beliefs to help them get through each day. Now's a good time for soul searching.

goldenoldie — September 11, 2012 at 7:42 a.m. ( | suggest removal


In that book I wrote there's a scene recounting the risk of being homosexual in the Navy '76-'79. People joke about sailors being at sea for long lengths of time. The truth is, those jokes are exactly the opposite of what reality was.

Back then, being found out to be queer could have cost a man his life.

I'd say we've come a ways in these 35 years.

Drift — September 11, 2012 at 7:46 a.m. ( | suggest removal


hawkeye — September 10, 2012 at 9:45 p.m.

I believe it's in a revised edition of the New International Version of the Holy Bible. My Holy Bible doesn't have that exact quote...neither does my mother's or my grandmother's...but ours were published prior to the '70s. It seems as time goes by, the Holy Bible is forever revised in an attempt to share the message contained within, so that all may understand what is being said. Could you imagine trying to read the very first Bible ever written???

There are different revisions to suit the different religious groups but the overall message is the same. I find it interesting that the entire bible reflects life from the earliest records and is followed today in many laws and everyday life. It's as if it was utilized possibly as a book of laws by leaders, then separation of religion and government began to strengthen, especially in the Holy Wars...so the religious leaders and their followers continued onward with the word as a law of conscience and inner strength to help all who believed. It is that thought which guides me to understand just what the writings of the Holy Bible is all about.

goldenoldie — September 11, 2012 at 7:53 a.m. ( | suggest removal


"... *I find it interesting that the entire bible reflects life from the earliest records* ..." goldenoldie — September 11, 2012 at 7:53 a.m.

**The proper reverence due those who have gone before**
PZ Myers

Imagine that is a Bible sitting on a shelf. My tiny black bar of pixels is a placeholder to represent everything in it, not to minimize it; if you have a grand view of the Bible’s contents, that’s fine, those few pixels should then conjure up your memory of historic events and aspirations and people who loved and raised families and created art and fought for what they believed in. And for those of us with less romantic visions of the Bible, it represents thousands of years of war and folly and pain and loss. No matter what, it’s a big thing, a huge thing, and I’ve reduced it to a cartoon of the spine of a black-bound book for convenience. Just for now, keep in mind that it stands for 2000 years and the lives of hundreds of thousands or millions of people.

http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2006/01/31/the-proper-reverence-due-those/

mr_basil_seal — September 11, 2012 at 8:15 a.m. ( | suggest removal


con't

Here’s another icon, a few bits of bone from another australopithecine, Lucy. Like the relics in those cardboard boxes from the bone room, we know little about Lucy the thinking, acting, living being. She was a small female, less than four feet tall, living in old Africa. We can imagine that she had family, she lived in a group or tribe, she foraged, she had hungry days and full days, she courted or was courted, she had moments of happiness and moments of grief. All of the things she thought most important are gone and lost to knowledge, and all we have now are these few bones. When I hold the femur of a man dead 50 years, I can feel the sorrow of a life lost to me; how much more reverence should we feel for these bones of a person from a world gone 3.2 million years?

And look at how much is lost. Between the time of the couple fleeing across a field of volcanic ash and poor dead Lucy lies 400,000 years. If a Bible is a record of the struggle of a people for 2,000 years, we’d need 200 Bibles to tell us the tale of just this one obscure, remote branch of our lineage.

http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2006/01/31/the-proper-reverence-due-those/

mr_basil_seal — September 11, 2012 at 8:17 a.m. ( | suggest removal


LOL, Basil... You made me smile with your posts. I should've stated from the writes at the beginning of the bible and historic events. One thing I am in opposition with the statements...in no way do I perceive the holy bible with romantic visions. It depicts the struggles to convince, to establish laws, the consequences of not following the law and how laws were formed. Maybe a bit of fantasy...but sometimes it took what appeared to be a miracle to convince the word since so many wore those "blinders" I speak of. An example...turning water into wine and multiplying loaves and fishes. Funny how it could be a case of prepping as we'd see it today. How many people are starving then suddenly a box of food appears at their doorstep??? It's all in the the perception of the writes, my friend. The bible depicts the need to believe and to trust and what to avoid and to follow laws. It's much more than a romantic novel.

goldenoldie — September 11, 2012 at 8:41 a.m. ( | suggest removal


I'd suggest you read the essay in it's entirety before making the claims you are attempting.

mr_basil_seal — September 11, 2012 at 8:44 a.m. ( | suggest removal


Regarding John 3:16...that "everlasting life" mentioned in the quote...

It could be construed as immortality to some. To others, it could be construed as living on in memory by loved ones or living onto eternity as a soul or a saint in Heaven.

It's all in the interpretation of the word, my fellow forum dwellers.

btw...I went back and checked in the three bibles I possess...it's in all three (two are same denomination, third is of another denomination of faith). I was still looking through the Book of Matthew, hence the reason why I didn't find it the first time around.

goldenoldie — September 11, 2012 at 8:46 a.m. ( | suggest removal


Hawkeye- I was translating from a Greek Bible on that (I'm a Theologian Major- what do you expect?!?) I might have made a mistake on how it was quoted. It can be drilled into your mind, but do you understand the context? John 3:16, NKJV *For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life*

They (Bibles) are all quoted differently *but* at the end of the day they all have the same meaning and teaching but it depends on how the person interprets what is read. (Except for the most recent one that wants the Bible to end on "Happy Notes!?!")

mxfun118 — September 11, 2012 at 8:48 a.m. ( | suggest removal


Dirty tricks abound! Way too much $$$ in politics.

**Super PACs in sheep’s clothing**

Conservative super PACs in Maine and Florida are pretending to be liberals to deceitfully influence elections

One of the oldest dirty tricks in politics is running candidates in your opponent’s primary to distract them from the general or even potentially knock them out entirely. The FBI is reportedly investigating Rep. David Rivera for backing a fake Democrat with envelopes stuffed with cash, and Republicans in Wisconsin openly supported “fake Democrats” there in order to give Gov. Scott Walker an edge in the election’s timing.

But the rise of super PACs has opened up a new venue for this tactic, allowing operatives to anonymously deploy hundreds of thousands of dollars of ads while deceitfully pretending to be partisans of the other side. In Maine, where liberal-leaning independent former governor Angus King is the clear front-runner for an open U.S. Senate seat, a Republican-tied group with the innocuous name Maine Freedom has spent $250,000. But instead of promoting Republican Charlie Summers or using all the money to attack King, the group is boosting Democrat Cynthia Dill. The ads portray Dill positively, calling her “a Democrat you can feel good about.”

The idea, presumably, is that by increasing Dill’s currently meager share of the votes, they can siphon enough votes away from King to hand Summers the election. And there’s real precedent in Maine for this. Three years ago, the gubernatorial race looked a lot like today’s Senate race, with popular independent Eliot Cutler on a path to victory. Many observers in the state, including progressives, blame the Democrat for spoiling that election for Cutler and allowing Republican Paul LePage to win.

http://www.salon.com/2012/09/11/super_pacs_in_sheeps_clothing/

nailingit — September 11, 2012 at 8:51 a.m. ( | suggest removal


mr_basil_seal — September 11, 2012 at 8:44 a.m.

I'd suggest you read the entire *original* Holy Bible...Old Testament as well as the New Testament before judging what I state. I'd also suggest that you not assume that everyone who believes in faith, believes only what is in the condensed version of the original bible. Religion in its entirety is not just cut and dried, my friend. Religion is ever evolving. Remember, Earth and the Universe wasn't made in one day, either. It is ever evolving as well, Basil. Stars and planets die and new ones form.

goldenoldie — September 11, 2012 at 8:54 a.m. ( | suggest removal


nailingit — September 11, 2012 at 8:51 a.m.

I see you read my comment. Them thar wolves is ev'rywhure!

goldenoldie — September 11, 2012 at 8:56 a.m. ( | suggest removal


Finally mainstream media is catching on. The questions will become increasingly targeted leading up to the debates. The rock is being pushed aside. Roll away the stone!

**Details, Mr. Romney**

Voters know exactly what would happen to their tax bill next year under Obama's proposal — and economists on the left and right can have a vigorous debate about its effect on the economy — because all the necessary details are on the table. The same can't be said of Romney's plan. Although he's been clear about his goals, Romney hasn't shown even by way of illustration how they could all be achieved. Instead, he would leave it to lawmakers to translate those goals into legislation.

http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/editorials/la-ed-romney-tax-plan-details-20120911,0,416185.story

nailingit — September 11, 2012 at 9:06 a.m. ( | suggest removal


mxfun118 — September 11, 2012 at 8:48 a.m.

OUCH!, that memory just came back. Thanks for that ;)

That's exactly how I remember it.

***On another (or maybe the same) subject--- Hey Dee!***

"from those tolerant liberals that demand christians abandon their faith - or else."

Just what the hell are you talking about? Are you on drugs (yes I know you are, I mean "other" drugs)?

I have NEVER heard of ANYBODY doing this, unless you are referring to another time and place. (Germany, around 1933)

hawkeye — September 11, 2012 at 9:39 a.m. ( | suggest removal


I suppose posting this will draw cries of "Christian bashing". :)) If so many "Christians" have such strong anti-Robertson sentiments, where's the boycott? I've noticed most of the posters on this site who do not promote Christianity have the most Christ like tendencies when they post, and those that do promote Christianity....well, the posts speak for themselves. I suppose this observation will also draw cries of "Christian bashing".

In the 'Not to beat a dead horse category but...' Quite a viewership!

CBN International maintains 15 television production centers around the world that create indigenous versions of The 700 Club and other Christian programs in 39 languages. CBN International programs are broadcast in 138 countries to an estimated yearly viewing audience of 360 million people.

http://www.cbn.com/700club/ShowInfo/About/about700club.aspx

What timing! **Mr. Pat made it into the news today!**

**Pat Robertson, Televangelist, Encourages Man To Become Muslim So He Can Beat His Wife**

Once again, Pat Robertson has said something ridiculously offensive and cruel.

Past targets have included gays, feminists and pagans, atheists, people with Alzheimer's, adoptive parents, Haitians and people who don't pray enough. This time, the televangelist focused his ire on wives who fail to properly obey their husbands.

On Monday's broadcast of Robertson's television show "The 700 Club," he answered a question from a viewer named Michael about how to repair his marriage to a woman who "has no respect for me as the head of the house."

Robertson's response: "Well, you could become a Muslim and you could beat her."
Bizarrely, this comment elicited laughter from Robertson's co-host, Terry Meeuwsen.

Unfortunately, Robertson didn't stop there.

"I don’t think we condone wife-beating these days but something has got to be done to make her."

He also called the woman a "rebellious child" who doesn't want to "submit to any authority." However, since the Scripture doesn't allow for divorce, Robertson urged the husband to "move to Saudi Arabia," where, ostensibly, beating the woman would be permissible.

WATCH THE VIDEO ABOVE.

According to Right Wing Watch, the very same clip was edited when posted on the Christian Broadcast Network's website in order to remove the offensive rhetoric.

**And if you're tempted to write off Robertson as just a fringe character, know this: He spent last weekend hanging out with Republican presidential candidate Mitt Romney, NBC News reported.**

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/09/11/pat-robertson-become-muslim-to-beat-your-wife_n_1873142.html

nailingit — September 11, 2012 at 9:59 a.m. ( | suggest removal


In all fairness; I didn't care for Ol' Pat comparing the wife to a 13-year-old child who won't submit to authority. That was B.S., in my opinion.

But that Muslim crack was obviously a facetious joke. In bad taste, but a joke none-the-less.

Drift — September 11, 2012 at 10:13 a.m. ( | suggest removal


It also is noteworthy that Mitt Romney's Christian faith (Mormonism) disallows any women in positions of authority. (Priesthood) Perhaps the Mormon church will receive revelation regarding this as they did to allow blacks after the civil rights movement and much societal pressure. I suppose it depends on the polls. :)

Again, I suppose this is Christian bashing. It's unfortunate so many bear the mantle of victimization with this subject instead of reasoning. Hopefully the church isn't teaching this in their theological classrooms. This line of thought is not only absurd and provides avenues of deflection, it's also immature, self serving and not worthy when discussing this subject.

nailingit — September 11, 2012 at 10:14 a.m. ( | suggest removal


Obviously an exaggeration, but the follow up is revealing. Kinda puts the fascist into facetious, in the sense of dictatorial control.

**"I don’t think we condone wife-beating these days but something has got to be done to make her."**

nailingit — September 11, 2012 at 10:22 a.m. ( | suggest removal


Birkenfeld attorney Stephen Kohn said the information the former Swiss banker turned over to the IRS led directly to the $780 million fine paid to the US by his former employer, UBS, as well as leading over 35,000 taxpayers to participate in amnesty programs to voluntarily repatriate their illegal offshore accounts. Kohn said that resulted in the collection of over $5 billion dollars in back taxes, fines and penalties that otherwise would have remained outside the reach of the government.

One guy, one bank, and they found enough illegal accounts with enough money to collect $5B in taxes. How much money did the IRS find to get $5B in taxes? Remember, one bank only.

mrd — September 11, 2012 at 11:27 a.m. ( | suggest removal


nailingit — September 11, 2012 at 10:14 a.m.

It's all in the presentation of the argument by the one posting and the interpretation by the reader.

goldenoldie — September 11, 2012 at 11:36 a.m. ( | suggest removal


***Things that make you go, huh!***

Foxconn, the company that assembles Apple's iPhones, has been employing tens of thousands of "interns" who have been forced to make iPhones as part of their school-work, the New York Times's Charles Duhigg reports.

This follows on the heels of the intense scrutiny Apple (AAPL) and Foxconn faced last year, in the wake of a fabricated report that Foxconn employed workers as young as 13 and paid them like slaves. In response, Apple stepped up its commitment to monitoring its supply chain. Apple's move, combined with the exposure of the Foxconn report as a fraud, quickly put most of the concerns to rest.

In this case, Foxconn acknowledged that it employed about 32,000 students. The company said that the students were not required to work as part of their curriculum, but several students disputed this. They said they were told that if they refused to work, they wouldn't graduate.

Foxconn appears to have used the "interns" to ramp up its production lines in weeks leading up to the iPhone 5 launch. It's not clear whether the students were paid for their work.

This labor issue seems much less serious for Apple than the prior one, and it will likely blow over quickly.

More broadly, though, as China's economy matures and huge American companies like Apple continue to coin money with the help of cheap Chinese labor, these issues are likely to come up again and again. In the 1980s, frustration with South Africa's apartheid policy led to pressure being put on many global companies to withdraw from South Africa until the policy was changed. It remains to be seen whether human rights concerns in China will ultimately provoke this sort of response, but the issue isn't likely to go away.

***Just another strike against Apple, as far as I'm concerned.***

hawkeye — September 11, 2012 at 11:45 a.m. ( | suggest removal


***I didn't know you could run for two offices at the same time. Great idea, just in case you lose at one you might get the other. Hey, maybe he could shoot for three, you know, he might lose two.***

HUDSON, Wis. (AP) — Republican vice presidential candidate Paul Ryan plans to begin airing ads in Wisconsin on Wednesday as he asks voters to elect him to an eighth House term he hopes to never serve.

Contracts formalized Tuesday with at least one Milwaukee television station show that Ryan's congressional ads will start airing Wednesday morning and go initially for two weeks. Ryan's congressional campaign manager confirmed that ads defending the seat will run but said additional details would come later.

Wisconsin law allows Ryan to seek both offices simultaneously but only serve in one if he wins the pair. His Democratic opponent in the state's 1st District is Rob Zerban, a former county official.

The Ryan congressional ads start in the same week as presidential ticket mate Mitt Romney's commercials start in Wisconsin.

***So, who is doing his House job while he's out campaigning?***

hawkeye — September 11, 2012 at 11:52 a.m. ( | suggest removal


**Spoiler alert: Poll finds small following for Libertarian candidate**

Washington (CNN) – Gary Johnson's poll numbers may not give him much-of-a shot at winning the presidency, but in the latest CNN/ORC Poll, he is registering enough of a following to possibly tip the balance in an increasingly close election.

Three percent of likely voters responded that they would vote for Johnson, the Libertarian Party's candidate for president, in November. That number is slightly higher among registered voters, with 4% identifying with the former governor of New Mexico.

...

"Our issue is that polls become self-fulfilling," said Hunter, before the latest poll numbers came out. Hunter went on to say that even if a poll shows only a small following, they create a conversation about the candidate and increase the campaign's profile.

"If you are not even in the poll than you are not in the conversation," Hunter concluded.

This latest CNN/ORC poll sampled 1,022 adult Americans and was conducted by telephone on September 7-9, 2012. The margin of error is plus or minus 3.5 percentage points.

Watch "OutFront" tonight at 7pm ET for Erin Burnett's interview with Gary Johnson.

http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2012/09/10/spoiler-alert-poll-finds-small-following-for-libertarian-candidate/?hpt=po_c2

nailingit — September 11, 2012 at 12:27 p.m. ( | suggest removal


hawkeye- **So, who is doing his House job while he's out campaigning?**

I think it boils down to getting a fourth to keep Boehner's tee time in place at Rock Creek Country Club, beyond that not much of an impact.

nailingit — September 11, 2012 at 12:34 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Golfing is a great aerobic exercise that everyone should try at least once in their lives. Heck, President Obama has done 104 rounds of golf since becoming President. John Boehner...close to the same since taking the position as Speaker of the House with about 100 rounds. Paul Ryan...can't find the numbers but I'm sure it's right up there as well.

Of course, there's more to it than just golf when it comes to our political leaders and teeing off. For the common folk...it's just a great day on the course. Nothing more, nothing less.

goldenoldie — September 11, 2012 at 4:31 p.m. ( | suggest removal


A voice of reason...

**Respected Federal Judge Calls for Legalizing Marijuana**

Richard A. Posner, a widely respected federal judge, called for the elimination of criminal laws against marijuana in a September 6 lecture at Elmhurst College in Illinois.

Judge Posner, a member of the influential United States Court of Appeals for the Seventh Circuit in Chicago, is an intellectual giant who is the most-cited judge in America. His call for legalization is significant because Posner is considered a legal conservative.

“I don’t think we should have a fraction of the drug laws that we have. I think it’s really absurd to be criminalizing possession or use or distribution of marijuana,” he said. “I can’t see any difference between that and cigarettes.” The audience gave him a round of applause.

In his introduction of Posner, Judge William J. Bauer, his colleague on the 7th Circuit, called him “a genius.” Posner has written hundreds of court opinions and 40 books on many topics. Law schools have classes devoted to his legal rulings. He attended Yale College, was valedictorian when he graduated from Harvard Law School and started his legal career as a clerk for the Supreme Court of the United States.

“But also I’m skeptical about the other drug laws,” Judge Posner added. “The notion of using the criminal law as the primary means of dealing with a problem of addiction, of misuse, of ingesting dangerous drugs — I don’t think that’s sensible at all.”

He said drug laws are “responsible for a high percentage of our prisoners. And these punishments are often very, very severe. It’s all very expensive.” Judge Posner has pointed out that legalizing marijuana and other drugs would save federal, state and local governments $41.3 billion per year.

He said drug laws are, “…a waste of a lot of high quality legal minds, and it’s also a waste of people’s lives who could be as least moderately productive with having to spend year after year in prison. That is a serious problem.”

http://blogs.lawyers.com/2012/09/respected-federal-judge-calls-for-legalizing-marijuana/

nailingit — September 11, 2012 at 4:32 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Hmm...I found an interesting CNN news opinion article. Did you know that President GW Bush...the grandson of George Herbert Walker, the former President of the US Golf Association...refrained from golfing out of respect for the troops while battling it out in Iraq and Afghanistan?

It is rumored that former President Clinton had played 1200 rounds while in office. If anybody has the correct number, I'm interested. If this is correct, then maybe he was working on his handicap...all those billigans ya know!!!

goldenoldie — September 11, 2012 at 4:45 p.m. ( | suggest removal


There has to be some kind of control when it comes to marijuana...just as there is for tobacco, alcohol and prescription medications. You can't just write it out of the books.

goldenoldie — September 11, 2012 at 4:48 p.m. ( | suggest removal



**Obama up 16 in Washington state**

A new SurveyUSA poll reports Barack Obama has a 16-point lead in Washington state, 54 percent to 38 percent, confirming that Washington remains firmly rooted among the solidly blue states this year.

http://www.politico.com/blogs/charlie-mahtesian/2012/09/obama-up-in-washington-state-135214.html?hp=l16

nailingit — September 11, 2012 at 6:36 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Nails,

WA could be 100% for Pres Obama. So what? The two states that matter most right now are Ohio and Virginia. And Pres Obama has fairly constant 4-5% leads there. Romney would have to win every other swing state if he can't crack one of these - about as statistically probable as winning the lottery.

http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics/2012/09/republicans-nervously-eye-swing-state-polls/

roger — September 11, 2012 at 6:59 p.m. ( | suggest removal


A great write! I couldn't help but think this might shine some light with some of the differences well intended basement dwellers have with each others views. A little lengthy but well worth the time.

**Confessions of a Former Republican**

An old saw has it that no one profits from talking about politics or religion. I think I finally understand what it means. We see different realities, different worlds. If you and I take in different slices of reality, chances are that we aren’t talking about the same things. I think this explains much of modern American political dialogue.

My old Republican worldview was flawed because it was based upon a small and particularly rosy sliver of reality. To preserve that worldview, I had to believe that people had morally earned their “just” desserts, and I had to ignore those whining liberals who tried to point out that the world didn’t actually work that way. I think this shows why Republicans put so much effort into “creat[ing] our own reality,” into fostering distrust of liberals, experts, scientists, and academics, and why they won’t let a campaign “be dictated by fact-checkers” (as a Romney pollster put it). It explains why study after study shows -- examples here, here, and here -- that avid consumers of Republican-oriented media are more poorly informed than people who use other news sources or don’t bother to follow the news at all.

Waking up to a fuller spectrum of reality has proved long and painful. I had to question all my assumptions, unlearn so much of what I had learned. I came to understand why we Republicans thought people on the Left always seemed to be screeching angrily (because we refused to open our eyes to the damage we caused or blamed the victims) and why they never seemed to have any solutions to offer (because those weren’t mentioned in the media we read or watched).

My transition has significantly strained my relationships with family, friends, and former colleagues. It is deeply upsetting to walk on thin ice where there used to be solid, common ground. I wish they, too, would come to see a fuller spectrum of reality, but I know from experience how hard that can be when your worldview won’t let you.

Read more @

http://www.thenation.com/article/169833/confessions-former-republican

nailingit — September 11, 2012 at 6:59 p.m. ( | suggest removal


*WA could be 100% for Pres Obama. So what?*

Just happy to be here, that's all.

nailingit — September 11, 2012 at 7:01 p.m. ( | suggest removal


goldenoldie — September 11, 2012 at 4:31 p.m.,
"Golfing is a great aerobic exercise that everyone should try at least once in their lives... For the common folk...it's just a great day on the course. Nothing more, nothing less."

Dear Goldie - I've tried golf - several times. I hate the game with a passion. I'd rather SCUBA dive in the midst of a group of sharks than step foot on a golf course.

roger — September 11, 2012 at 7:06 p.m. ( | suggest removal


The latest CNN/ORC poll released today shows a wider lead for President Obama than the previous CNN/ORC poll but it is doubly skewed. It massively under-samples independents while it also over-samples Democratic voters. The CNN/Opinion Research Corp. poll official reports Obama at 52 to percent and Mitt Romney at 46 percent. Unskewed, the data reveals a 53 percent to 45 percent lead for Romney.

This new CNN/ORC survey, unlike many other analyzed, not only over-samples Democratic voters, but also massively under-samples independent voters, to produce a result more favorable to Barack Obama. This survey’s sample includes 397 registered Republicans and 441 registered Democrats. But the survey included a total of 822 registered voters, leaving only 37 independent voters at most. The survey clearly under-sampled independent and Republican voters.

http://www.nationalpolls.com/stories/2012/0911-examiner-romney.html

ELISI — September 11, 2012 at 7:18 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Hmm that left out 99% of what I posted..try this again in 2 parts..

The latest CNN/ORC poll released today shows a wider lead for President Obama than the previous CNN/ORC poll but it is doubly skewed. It massively under-samples independents while it also over-samples Democratic voters. The CNN/Opinion Research Corp. poll official reports Obama at 52 to percent and Mitt Romney at 46 percent. Unskewed, the data reveals a 53 percent to 45 percent lead for Romney.

ELISI — September 11, 2012 at 7:20 p.m. ( | suggest removal


part 2..

This new CNN/ORC survey, unlike many other analyzed, not only over-samples Democratic voters, but also massively under-samples independent voters, to produce a result more favorable to Barack Obama. This survey’s sample includes 397 registered Republicans and 441 registered Democrats. But the survey included a total of 822 registered voters, leaving only 37 independent voters at most. The survey clearly under-sampled independent and Republican voters.

ELISI — September 11, 2012 at 7:21 p.m. ( | suggest removal


mr_basil_seal — September 11, 2012 at 7:19 a.m.

You have obviously never had to sit through an Army Powerpoint Presentation.

Did you expect we had a more detailed class? The briefing detailed the change to policy, and how the changes effect certain actions, and what will disappear. I say arduous because we had to squeeze it in to an already tight schedule. More challenging due to my duty location and mission set at the time it was delivered.

It did not give a detailed description and hands on training of the homosexual lifestyle if that is what you were expecting.

danabwoodley — September 11, 2012 at 7:54 p.m. ( | suggest removal


mr_basil_seal — September 11, 2012 at 8:15 a.m.

mr_basil_seal — September 11, 2012 at 8:17 a.m.

And again it appears as though basil is incapable of producing an original thought.

You don't believe, ok, we get it. Your right to do so. In the end there are 4 possibiilies:

You don't believe and God and heaven doesn't exist. Result: nothing, you are a stiff in a box.

You believe and God and heaven doesn't exist. Result: Won't matter to you because your just a stiff in a box.

You don't believe and God and heaven does exist. Result: Permanent destruction (what some call hell).

You do believe and God and heaven does exist. Result: eternity in Heaven.

Simplified from a matrix I saw. In the end, however, it's your own choice. But must you talk down to those that do believe?

danabwoodley — September 11, 2012 at 8:09 p.m. ( | suggest removal


nailingit — September 11, 2012 at 9:59 a.m.

For what it's worth, I, as a Christian, don't bother listening/watching these broadcast evangelists. I know that they are inappropriately motivated by greed more than serving God.

My fellowship is with my family, and with friends. If someone wishes to discuss my faith, I am more than happy to do so. I will not arbitrarily walk up to anyone and offer to teach them of Christ (in today's world that can get you killed).

I believe a majority of Christians are like me. Unfortunately, we aren't recognized because of the outspokeness of those that don't necessarily practice what they preach.

danabwoodley — September 11, 2012 at 9:13 p.m. ( | suggest removal


danabwoodley — September 11, 2012 at 8:09 p.m

Dana, you will be talked down to, criticized, made fun of, laughed at, verbally attacked, called names, the list goes on..

I have found those who are most vocal about God not existing are the very ones who are scared. Scared for only reasons they know, and are in total denial.
Then we have those who do know God, but have turned their backs on him cause any number of reasons. Mad maybe cause prayers they thought should be answered wasn't..who knows, only they do are also very vocal against church and God.

They need to understand that, while yes we are Christians, we are also sinners, only difference between is that as Christian we are forgiven, when humbly and honestly asked for forgiveness and believe that we are forgiven.

That prayers are answered, but not in the time manner we as humans want.

That we have just as much right to speak our opinion as anyone else.
We are not going to stand in a corner and be quiet nor are we to be anyone's doormat.

ELISI — September 11, 2012 at 9:37 p.m. ( | suggest removal


hawkeye — September 11, 2012 at 11:52 a.m.

"I didn't know you could run for two offices at the same time"

Both Lloyd Benson and Joe Lieberman ran for their Senate seats while running for Vice President. Or is it only a problem if they are Republicans?

"So, who is doing his House job while he's out campaigning?"

The same question could be asked about Obama and Biden.

frobert — September 11, 2012 at 9:41 p.m. ( | suggest removal


DBW @ 9:13- *I, as a Christian, don't bother listening/watching these broadcast evangelists. I know that they are inappropriately motivated by greed more than serving God.*

Be careful of offering any critique of these televangelists. A few folks on here who consider themselves Christians might crucify you. :) Seriously, thanks for the input.

As for the rest of your post, thanks for providing a sincere window into your faith.

nailingit — September 11, 2012 at 9:53 p.m. ( | suggest removal



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j10A6e...

Stranger than fiction!

nailingit — September 11, 2012 at 10:15 p.m. ( | suggest removal


frobert — September 11, 2012 at 9:41 p.m.

You know, I didn't say ANYTHING about what party anybody belonged to. It was a reasonable question.

***You really are a jerk.***

hawkeye — September 11, 2012 at 10:43 p.m. ( | suggest removal


You don't believe and God and heaven does exist. Result: Permanent destruction (what some call hell).

danabwoodley — September 11, 2012 at 8:09 p.m

Sorry, don't buy it. If you don't believe in heaven, why would you believe in hell? And if you don't believe in hell, how could it exist, in your mind?

hawkeye — September 11, 2012 at 10:51 p.m. ( | suggest removal


It would be nice to get beyond racially charged politics. But it is what it is.

**GOP Rep. Appears on White Nationalist Radio Show**

Rep. Walter Jones (R-N.C.)
A North Carolina Republican congressman appeared on a notorious white nationalist radio program on Saturday to talk up legislation he coauthored accusing President Barack Obama of committing impeachable offenses. Rep. Walter Jones, a fiercely anti-war congressman who often breaks with his party on key votes, appeared on the Political Cesspool, a Memphis-based program hosted by ardent white nationalists James Edwards and Eddie Miller. The show has been condemned by groups like the Anti-Defamation League and Southern Poverty Law Center for promoting racist, homophobic, and anti-Semitic beliefs. Jones is the first member of Congress to appear on the program.

An avowed white nationalist who says David Duke is "above reproach," Edwards has referred to African Americans as "heathen savages" and "subhuman" and suggested that slavery was "the greatest thing that ever happened" to blacks. The show's mission statement is blunt: "We represent a philosophy that is pro-White and are against political centralization," it declares. It then outlines a series of issues the show exists to promote. "We wish to revive the White birthrate above replacement level fertility and beyond to grow the percentage of Whites in the world relative to other races," reads one plank. Another bullet point endorses the Confederacy: "Secession is a right of all people and individuals. It was successful in 1776 and this show honors those who tried to make it successful in 1865."

http://www.motherjones.com/mojo/2012/09/gop-congressman-appears-white-nationalist-radio-show

nailingit — September 11, 2012 at 11:48 p.m. ( | suggest removal



**DANA**

the storming of our egyptian embassy has unsettling similarities to jimmie carter and the hostages in iran.

do you think the marine presence *inside* the embassy has any effect on the safety of the occupants?

i've heard that the marines were given a 'do not engage' order...if so, i can't think of much that more stupid than showing weakness to our enemy.

am i alone....?

DeeLittle — September 12, 2012 at 2:32 a.m. ( | suggest removal


**ELISI — September 11, 2012 at 9:37 p.m**

*That we have just as much right to speak our opinion as anyone else. We are not going to stand in a corner and be quiet nor are we to be anyone's doormat.*

the speed with which our right to freedom of religion is disappearing should be a wake-up call to all religions in the US.

bet it's not.

it's so easy to use the 'cook a lobster' technique on mass numbers of people.

i'm too old to go through this again. first it was viet nam riots on college campuses (there's a lesson there, btw). then it was civil rights. black panther rioting and police shootings. then a short, wonderful vacation with the collapse of the cold war. then the middle east and terrorism rising in that region..

then there was 9/11.

we're back to being a militarized society that must be ever-watchful of our own sidewalks and buses and museums so we can spot terrorist attacks.

now, we've got to **fight** for the basic constitutional right to practice our religion freely and *safely* without attack, including attacks on the very core beliefs we hold.

oh well. at least it's familiar territory.

DeeLittle — September 12, 2012 at 2:46 a.m. ( | suggest removal


Good morning Dee. I disagree respectfully. I don't think you need to fight for your first amendment right to practice your religion. I just feel I need to fight for my first amendment right to be free of religion. I believe we need to keep religion out of politics. If not, it begs the question which exact religion, which exact version of the bible, we are supposed to apply. It turns my stomach when I see our politicians fall all over themselves trying to prove who believes more. Practice your religion, let me do mine (or not) but don't try to shove it down my throat. And when I say 'you', I don't mean you personally; just clarifying.
This constitutional right holds for all.

luvithere — September 12, 2012 at 6:18 a.m. ( | suggest removal


To the athiests of the forum, I have a question for you...

Do you find the following songs offensive??? Would you ever sing any of these???

"God Bless America"

"America the Beautiful"

"The Star Spangled Banner"

"America"

"Battle Hymn of the Republic"

and of course, "God Bless the USA"

...just curious.

goldenoldie — September 12, 2012 at 6:43 a.m. ( | suggest removal


Actually the first amendment right is "freedom OF religion"

That gives a person the right to worship any way they so choose and NOT be persecuted for it.

per·se·cute
   [pur-si-kyoot]
verb (used with object), per·se·cut·ed, per·se·cut·ing.

1. To oppress or harass with ill-treatment, especially because of race, religion, gender, sexual orientation, or beliefs.

2. To annoy persistently; bother.

ELISI — September 12, 2012 at 7:08 a.m. ( | suggest removal


Definition of **THEOCRACY**

1
: government of a state by immediate divine guidance or by officials who are regarded as divinely guided
2
: a state governed by a theocracy

---

Definition of **DEMOCRACY**

1
a : government by the people; especially : rule of the majority
b : a government in which the supreme power is vested in the people and exercised by them directly or indirectly through a system of representation usually involving periodically held free elections
2
: a political unit that has a democratic government

[Source Merriam Webster]

Amazing how some who claim to be Patriotic would have us living in a Theocracy rather than a Democracy. It brings to mind something the radicals on the right love to site.

America, love it or leave it!

Many would have us living a Christian version of Sharia law. Some comments are truly a mind blower.

Keep church at home and not within the power structure of our government.

nailingit — September 12, 2012 at 7:11 a.m. ( | suggest removal


Mitt Romney just gave a press briefing on the Libya attack trying to sound all presidential.

He made the mistake of taking questions. This guy is a creep and will politicize anything to try and gain a point. Disgusting!

Romney has no soul.

nailingit — September 12, 2012 at 7:29 a.m. ( | suggest removal


Elisi, the amendment also includes the right to be free of any religion. And yes, it does include the right to practice. And I can practice my absence of religion.

Goldie, I rarely sing. I sound too terrible. I don't find the songs offensive. Why would you ask this? Those who want to sing, sing. Those who don't, don't. End of that story.

luvithere — September 12, 2012 at 7:35 a.m. ( | suggest removal


**Good news for conspiracy theorists and politically illiterate**

**Glenn Beck Returning To TV With Dish Network Deal**

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/09/12/glenn-beck-dish-network-tv_n_1876736.html

nailingit — September 12, 2012 at 7:39 a.m. ( | suggest removal


That makes you very happy huh nailingit?
You now must set aside more time to be able to watch his program, I'm sure in the coming days we all here on the forum will be breathlessly awaiting to hear your daily critiques of his show. :)

ELISI — September 12, 2012 at 8 a.m. ( | suggest removal


Luvithere @ 7:35 am...for those who sing any of these wonderful and patriotic songs, they recognize God. Atheists do not recognize God therefore...if you sing any of these songs or enjoy listening to any of these songs...you are recognizing God. Are atheists who sing these songs truly atheists or are they agnostics???

..

Nailingit @7:39am...glad to hear you're so happy about this. Remember what the "Off" button on your remote is to be used for, though.

goldenoldie — September 12, 2012 at 8:23 a.m. ( | suggest removal


goldenoldie — September 12, 2012 at 8:23 a.m

You know what? It's just a song. It's not an oath.

If you sing "The Little Old Lady From Pasadena" does that mean you believe in her and approve of her actions?

Give me a break.

hawkeye — September 12, 2012 at 8:49 a.m. ( | suggest removal


luvithere@ 6:18 am: Well-said. Well-said.
___________________________________________________
Keeping media "honest": We all need to be skeptical of what is produced as news these days and I mean it from all sides of the political spectrum. I think ethical journalism is dying because the readers and viewers simply accept what is fed to them.

Like my soccer-playing sons used to say (at their mother's dismay): "Mom, it isn't a foul if no one calls it."

Here is a stunning article I read in The Atlantic today that called FOX News on their "worse" lie and wonder-of-wonders, FOX is correcting itself as a result:

http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2012/09/this-could-be-the-most-dishonest-thing-fox-news-has-ever-done/262245/

manthou — September 12, 2012 at 8:50 a.m. ( | suggest removal


**Over The Top**

Yesterday we noted that Mitt Romney, down in the polls after the convention, was throwing the kitchen sink at President Obama. Little did we know the kitchen sink would include -- on the anniversary of 9/11 -- one of the most over-the-top and (it turns out) incorrect attacks of the general-election campaign . Last night after 10:00 pm ET, Romney released a statement on the attacks on the U.S. embassies in Egypt and Libya. After saying he was “outraged” by these attacks and the death of an American consulate worker, Romney said, “It's disgraceful that the Obama administration's first response was not to condemn attacks on our diplomatic missions, but to sympathize with those who waged the attacks.” Yet after learning every piece of new information about those attacks, the Romney statement looks worse and worse -- and simply off-key. First, Romney was referring to a statement that the U.S. embassy in Egypt issued condemning the “efforts by misguided individuals to hurt the religious feelings of Muslims.” But that embassy statement, which the White House has distanced itself from, was in reference to an anti-Islam movie and anti-Islam pastor Terry Jones, and it came out BEFORE the embassy attacks began. Then this morning, we learned that the U.S. ambassador to Libya, Chris Stevens, and others died in one of the attacks.

David Calvert / Getty Images
Republican presidential candidate Mitt Romney addresses the crowd at the 134th National Guard Association Convention at the Reno-Sparks Convention Center, September 11, 2012 in Reno, Nevada.

*** When news-cycle campaigning goes awry: Bottom line: This was news-cycle campaigning by the Romney campaign gone awry. Why didn’t the Romney campaign wait until it had all the facts? On his overseas trip in the summer, Romney was so careful not to criticize Obama while on foreign soil. But how much time do you give an administration to work through a diplomatic and international crisis before trying to score immediate political points? You’d expect the Sarah Palins of the world to quickly pounce on something like this, and she predictably did. But a presidential nominee running for the highest office in the land? After the facts have come out, last night’s Romney statement only feeds the narrative that his campaign is desperate. And given that the Romney camp has already moved on to other subjects this morning -- issuing a press release on debt and not the embassy attacks -- it appears the campaign realizes it, too. Right before our publication time, the Romney camp responds to us that it stands by its statement from last night. The controversial embassy statement, the Romney camp argues, had occurred AFTER the unrest in Egypt and Libya had already begun (citing this CBS report) and that the statement had served as the administration’s sole response until about 10:00 pm ET.

http://firstread.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/09/12/13827378-first-thoughts-over-the-top?lite

nailingit — September 12, 2012 at 9:01 a.m. ( | suggest removal


Don't assume that, because someone supports the notion that religion needs to be out of government that they do not believe in a higher power or collective conscience or God or whatever you want to call it.

The term "God" means many things to many different people.

That's what makes it so difficult to be as inclusive as we need be if we insist on inserting our personal religion in government. We are always going to leave someone standing in the sidelines, feeling isolated and shunned.

I am not offended by agnostics, atheists, or anyone who practices their religion. Just don't shove it down my free throat as the only truth.

Comprenez-vous?

manthou — September 12, 2012 at 9:04 a.m. ( | suggest removal


Romney's criticism of President Obama and it's timing with regards to Libya might have secured another fours years of an Obama administration. This will affect Congressional races as well.

It's sad we have incompetence at this level running for the highest office in the land. This is a gift to the Obama campaign.

---

manthou- Last week 9/9 @ 12:12 I sourced an article explaining secularism v atheism and how these beliefs relate somewhat to the electorate. If you didn't check it out it might be worth the time.

If Fox News isn't anything else, they're consistent!

nailingit — September 12, 2012 at 9:17 a.m. ( | suggest removal


Goldie, a song is a song is a song. It does not mean I believe in God if I shout along with the rest. It does not mean I don't believe if I do sing along. It's just a....song. Let's not attach labels to a song calling it wonderfully patriotic etc etc. That implies I am not a patriot if I don't sing. I rather not make a big issue of such small matters. Not worth it, not important enough in the whole scheme of things and life.

Manthou - well said. Religion is fine but don't force me to participate in yours, and I will refrain from forcing you to participate in mine.

luvithere — September 12, 2012 at 9:21 a.m. ( | suggest removal


manthou — September 12, 2012 at 9:04 a.m.

I agree. I for one do not bring God, religion, or voice my opinion
on anything unless others brings it up. Then the door is wide open for discussion. All I ask is respect that fact that I do have an opinion, that I do believe in God without being ridiculed. As some tend do on the forum. You get back what you sow. I am no one's doormat and I will not stand silent when attacked.
I do not shove anything down anyone's throat as I feel others shouldn't try to shove their beliefs and opinion down mine.
If asked I try to answer the best I can, if my answer is offensive to someone, they know how to ignore.

ELISI — September 12, 2012 at 9:25 a.m. ( | suggest removal


danabwoodley — September 11, 2012 at 8:09 p.m.

A rewrite of [Pascal's Wager][1]

[1]: http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Pascal's_wager

Using fear based thinking.... Gee, where have we seen that used before.......

mr_basil_seal — September 12, 2012 at 9:27 a.m. ( | suggest removal


Some of Romney's biggest critics are weighing in on his handling of Libya. Many from the right.

**Mitt Romney Response To Libya, Egypt Attacks Called 'Irresponsible,' 'Craven,' 'Ham-Handed'**

Many members of the media reacted with puzzlement and criticism to Mitt Romney's continuing criticism of the White House response to the deadly attacks in Libya and Egypt.

The Romney campaign drew fire on Wednesday morning for issuing a blistering statement condemning the American embassy in Egypt for speaking against an incendiary anti-Muslim film, even though the embassy made the statement before any attacks had taken place. NBC's Chuck Todd, for instance, called the statement "irresponsible" and a "bad mistake."

CNN's Peter Hamby also criticized the response:

@PeterHambyCNN
Peter Hamby
Clinton issued statement condemning violence at 10pm EST Tues night. Yet Romney camp still went ahead w/ claim O "sympathizes" w/ attackers
September 12, 2012 1:20 pm via Twitter for BlackBerry® Reply Retweet Favorite
National Journal's Ron Fournier called Romney's actions "ham-handed" and "inaccurate."

Conservative pundit Erick Ericson, while disagreeing with Todd's response, also warned Romney to be "cautious."

Despite that criticism, Romney continued this line of attack in an appearance on Wednesday morning, saying that the White House had made a "severe miscalculation."

This drew a fierce response from analyst Mark Halperin:

@MarkHalperin
Mark Halperin
Unless Mitt has gamed crisis out in some manner completely invisible to Gang of 500,doubling down=most craven+ill-advised move of '12
September 12, 2012 2:33 pm via Twitter for BlackBerry® Reply Retweet Favorite
Other reporters were similarly baffled. "The Romney campaign's politicization of the embassy attacks is even worse than I expected," Foreign Policy writer Blake Hounshell tweeted.

Speaking on Fox News, Peggy Noonan was also blunt. "I don't feel that Mr. Romney has been doing himself any favors in the past few hours," she said. “Sometimes when really bad things happen, when hot things happen, cool words or no words is the way to go.”

"If you think the eye-rolling at Romney is just coming from the MSM, call up some Republican foreign policy hands," BuzzFeed's Ben Smith added.

Joe Scarborough responded to Smith's tweet:
@JoeNBC
Joe Scarborough
@BuzzFeedBen I've been inundated with emails and calls from elected GOP leaders who think Romney's response was a mistake. Not today.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/09/12/mitt-romney-libya-egypt-media-reactions_n_1877266.html

nailingit — September 12, 2012 at 9:30 a.m. ( | suggest removal


nailingit: I checked out the Salon article you referenced. Excellent. The targeted audience needed to be able to understand big words, however. :)

luvithere: I feel the same way about that flag lapel pin issue. Politicians put it on now to simply silence the "You're not patriotic enough if you don't wear one" complainers. It has lost its collective meaning (no matter how meaningful it might be to the person) because of its misuse and overuse.

manthou — September 12, 2012 at 9:32 a.m. ( | suggest removal


*But must you talk down to those that do believe?*

danabwoodley — September 11, 2012 at 8:09 p.m.

Wait, pointing to an essay that shows the holes in the knowledge in the bible is "talk(ing) down"? How?

Or is it more an issue of some complaining because there is more to the world than in that collection of stories?

mr_basil_seal — September 12, 2012 at 9:33 a.m. ( | suggest removal


Elisi @ 9:25 am: Free speech is honored by me. I get what you are saying. No one likes to be ridiculed for expressing an opinion. Respectful disagreement and civility are becoming a lost art.

manthou — September 12, 2012 at 9:36 a.m. ( | suggest removal


*now, we've got to fight for the basic constitutional right to practice our religion freely and safely without attack, including attacks on the very core beliefs we hold.
oh well. at least it's familiar territory.*
DeeLittle — September 12, 2012 at 2:46 a.m.

Can you give us any examples why you'd need to "..fight for the basic constitutional right to practice our religion freely and safely..."?

Like efforts being made to lessen your right?

mr_basil_seal — September 12, 2012 at 9:43 a.m. ( | suggest removal


manthou — September 12, 2012 at 9:04 a.m.

Thank you.

hawkeye — September 12, 2012 at 9:50 a.m. ( | suggest removal


hawkeye: De nada. :)

manthou — September 12, 2012 at 9:59 a.m. ( | suggest removal


**FIRST ON CNN: Romney camp tries to manage fallout from Libya response**

De Pere, Wisconsin (CNN) - Facing criticism for its aggressive and politically-charged response to Tuesday's violent attacks on the American embassies in Egypt and Libya, Mitt Romney's presidential campaign is quietly advising Republicans how to respond to questions about the campaign's handling of the episode.

In talking points currently being pushed to Republican leaders and top surrogates, the Romney campaign recommends attacking President's Obama "foreign policy of weakness" and dismissing questions about how the campaign responded to the crisis last night.

A sample response, as proposed by the Romney campaign officials in Boston:

"Did Governor Romney 'jump the gun' last night in releasing his statement?"

"No. It is never too soon to stand up for American values and interests."

Read the full list of message points from the Romney campaign, provided to CNN by a GOP source, below:

**Surrogate Message Points: Attacks On America’s Diplomatic Missions In Libya And Egypt**

Top-Line Message:

– We join all Americans in grieving for the four American patriots who lost their lives in yesterday’s attacks and send our condolences to their loved ones.

- This is a time for America to be firm and resolute – and to make clear beyond any doubt that America will not tolerate attacks on our own.

- The violence against the American diplomatic missions in Libya and Egypt underscores that the world remains a dangerous place and that American leadership is sorely needed.

– Over the last several years, we have stood witness to an Arab Spring that presents both opportunity for a more peaceful and prosperous region, but also great peril if the forces of extremism and violence are allowed to control the course of events.

Read more @

http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2012/09/12/romney-camp-tries-to-manage-fallout-from-libya-response/?hpt=po_c2

nailingit — September 12, 2012 at 10:30 a.m. ( | suggest removal


nailingit — September 12, 2012 at 10:30 a.m.

Spin, spin, spin (don't get dizzy) spin, spin, spin (come on Willard) spin, spin, spin.....

hawkeye — September 12, 2012 at 10:47 a.m. ( | suggest removal


Traditional lyrics to "God Bless America"

While the storm clouds gather far across the sea,
Let us swear allegiance to a land that's free,
Let us all be grateful for a land so fair,
As we raise our voices in a solemn prayer.

God bless America,
Land that I love.
Stand beside her, and guide her
Through the night with a light from above.
From the mountains, to the prairies,
To the oceans, white with foam
God bless America, My home sweet home
God bless America, My home sweet home.

goldenoldie — September 12, 2012 at 12:24 p.m. ( | suggest removal


In reference to my post...goldenoldie @ 12:24pm

You say that's just a song??? I'd say it's much more than that.

goldenoldie — September 12, 2012 at 12:26 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Well folks...here's another one (randomly chosen)

***Battle Hymn of the Republic** (modern version sung on White House Lawn by US Army Chorus in 2008 for Pope Benedict, also sung by US Navy at the National Cathedral in Washington DC on September 14, 2001)*

*Mine eyes have seen the glory of the coming of the Lord;
He is trampling out the vintage where the grapes of wrath are stored;
He hath loosed the fateful lightning of His terrible swift sword;
His truth is marching on.
Glory Glory Hallelujah! Glory Glory Hallelujah!
Glory Glory Hallelujah! His truth is marching on.*

*I have seen Him in the watch fires of a hundred circling camps
They have builded(?) Him an altar in the evening dews and damps;
I can read His righteous sentence by the dim and flaring lamps;
His day is marching on.
Glory Glory Hallelujah! Glory Glory Hallelujah!
Glory Glory Hallelujah! His day is marching on.*

*I have read a fiery Gospel writ in burnished rows of steel;
“As ye deal with My contemners, so with you My grace shall deal”;
Let the Hero, born of woman, crush the serpent with His heel,
Since God is marching on.
Glory Glory Hallelujah! Glory Glory Hallelujah!
Glory Glory Hallelujah! Since God is marching on.*

*He has sounded forth the trumpet that shall never call retreat;
He is sifting out the hearts of men before His judgment seat;
Oh be swift my soul, to answer Him! be jubilant, my feet;
Our God is marching on.
Glory Glory Hallelujah Glory Glory Hallelujah!
Glory Glory Hallelujah! Our God is marching on.*

*In the beauty of the lilies Christ was born across the sea,
With a glory in His bosom that transfigures you and me:
As He died to make men holy; let us live to make men free;
[originally …let us die to make men free]
While God is marching on.
Glory Glory Hallelujah Glory Glory Hallelujah
Glory Glory Hallelujah While God is marching on.*

*He is coming like the glory of the morning on the wave,
He is wisdom to the mighty, He is honor to the brave;
So the world shall be His footstool, and the soul of wrong His slave,
Our God is marching on.
Glory Glory Hallelujah Glory Glory Hallelujah!
Glory Glory Hallelujah! Our God is marching on.*

goldenoldie — September 12, 2012 at 12:51 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Regarding my post @12:51 pm...

Still just a song???

Yeah...right!

BTW, the US Navy presented this son in honor of the victims of 9/11.

Soooo...is it still just a song???

Not in *my* book!

goldenoldie — September 12, 2012 at 12:55 p.m. ( | suggest removal


oopsie...

Should read "BTW, the US Navy presented this *song* in honor of the victims of 9/11.

goldenoldie — September 12, 2012 at 12:56 p.m. ( | suggest removal


mr_basil_seal, did you see the latest Arctic Sea Ice report out today??? According to official reports, it has now reached a new record low...27,000 square miles less than the previous low record of 1.61 million square miles, set on Sept. 18, 2007. I thought you'd be the best person to ask some questions so here goes. Do you see this as a sign that this might be the climax of a cyclical pattern or is this yet another sign that the issue of anthropogenic climate change or a continued increase of CO2 levels are on the upswing?

goldenoldie — September 12, 2012 at 1:35 p.m. ( | suggest removal


hawkeye — September 12, 2012 at 8:49 a.m.

Seriously??? You are actually comparing a silly 60's pop song to ballads with Patriotic themes??? The songs I mentioned...only a few in fact...show respect and honor to our nation...Under God. One shows respect in the coming of Christ. Both mentioned are in the form of prayers.

Can you deny these facts or are they yet...only songs to you?

goldenoldie — September 12, 2012 at 1:43 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Patriotic, maybe. Religious, NO. You want to call them prayers, fine. Keep them prayers, not patriotic songs. Make up your mind, one or the other.

If this is what is important to you, have at it. Frankly, I think there are more important things to deal with. Maybe you should start your own blog (and leave this one alone).

hawkeye — September 12, 2012 at 1:49 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Does it not feel like Jimmy Carter and 1979 all over again? We have a weak President that pushed radical governments into power, this is the result we get. Pull up Fox News and look at the photo of our murdered American Ambassador. If this does not make your blood boil, I don't know what will. Why the hell are we being cozy with blood thirsty radicals and ignoring our friends such as Israel. What kind of President does not have time to meet with Israel when they are very close to war but has time to go on Letterman? This guy is a joke for a President. I do apologize if I have offended my friends on here that lean left and I know you hate Fox News but if you could take that out of it. Obama is not respected and is seen as weak which is why they are pulling this crap. He needs to go!

Woosker — September 12, 2012 at 2:25 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Anyone else going to see Crosby, Stills and Nash tonight?

manthou — September 12, 2012 at 3:49 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Woosker. Your statements are confusing and seemingly lack merit. The neo-cons on the right were screaming we weren't doing enough to arm the rebels to over throw Gaddafi, but now a few (not many, notice the absence of RW politicians not condemning current events) are condemning the Prez for inaction?

*"Why the hell are we being cozy with blood thirsty radicals"* Please explain your rationale for such a statement. Please state who it is exactly we are "cozy" with who caused this action against our embassy.

As far as Israel, our blind allegiance to them, in part, precipitates many of the problems we see/experience in the Middle East today. At least in my opinion. :)

As far as our President being a "joke" and denigrating him as being weak, why don't you research the rate and effectiveness in which Al-Qaeda & Taliban leadership have been decimated under this Commander in Chief's leadership as opposed to the prior administration. These right wing talking points have no basis in reality.

You mentioned Fox News twice. Perhaps you should try and source news organizations that don't have such a hard right wing bias, and are respected on the international front. In particular when it comes to important matters such as this.

Romney didn't even have the foresight to mention our troops during his acceptance speech for his nomination. Now he try's to trump our President concerning this matter? Romney is being ridiculed on both sides of the aisle for his comments last night and today on this matter, and rightfully so.

Anyway, good to see you post.

(To bad our mission failed during the Iran hostage crisis, for a few reasons, if successful no doubt this Jimmy Carter comparison talk wouldn't be happening).

nailingit — September 12, 2012 at 3:50 p.m. ( | suggest removal


manthou- Sorry to say no but wish I were. Have fun! Please give us a review tomorrow!

nailingit — September 12, 2012 at 3:52 p.m. ( | suggest removal


**Obama Responds To Libya Criticism: Romney Tends 'To Shoot First And Aim Later'**

From the pool report:

"I think most Americans, Democrats or Republicans, understand that there are times when we set politics aside, and one of those is when we've got a direct threat to American personnel who are overseas," President Obama said.
"And so I think that if you look at how most Republicans have reacted, most elected officials, they've reacted responsibly, waiting to find out the facts before they talk, making sure that our No. 1 priority is the safety and security of American personnel."

"It appears that Gov. Romney didn't have his facts right. The situation in Cairo was one in which an embassy that is being threatened by major protests releases a press release saying that the film that had disturbed so many Muslims around the world wasn't representative of what Americans believe about Islam."

"In an effort to cool the situation down, it didn't come from me, it didn't come form Secretary Clinton, it came from people on the ground who are potentially in danger. And my tendency is to cut folks a little bit of slack when they're in that circumstance, rather than try to question their judgment from the comfort of a campaign office," Obama said.

"I do have to say that, more broadly, we believe in the First Amendment. It is one of the hallmarks of our Constitution that I am sworn to uphold, so we're always going to uphold the rights of individuals to speak their minds. On the other hand, this film is not representative of who we are, and our values, and I think it is important for us to communicate that. That's never an excuse for violence against Americans, which is why my No. 1 priority and my initial statement focused on making sure that not only are Americans safe, but that we go after anyone that would attack Americans."

Obama said the U.S. will "remain vigilant," and that "even as we apply pressure on al Qaeda and other elements that are affiliated in big chunks of the world, such as North Africa and the Mideast, we've got a lot of dangerous characters, and we've got to make sure we're continuing to apply pressure on them. And that's something I'm determined to do."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/09/12/obama-romney-libya_n_1878761.html

nailingit — September 12, 2012 at 4:08 p.m. ( | suggest removal


**Hill GOP leaves Romney out on limb on Libya**

Senior Republicans on Capitol Hill are leaving GOP presidential nominee Mitt Romney out on a limb after he criticized President Barack Obama’s “disgraceful” handling of the assault on the U.S. embassy in Libya, which led to the death of U.S. ambassador Chris Stevens.

Indiana Sen. Dick Lugar, the top Republican on the Foreign Relations Committee who personally knew Stevens, refused to assign any blame to the Obama administration.

“My heart is with Mr. Stevens, my former staff member, my friend,” Lugar told POLITICO on Wednesday. As a Pearson Fellow to the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, Stevens served as a staffer for Lugar in 2006. Lugar helped shepherd Stevens’s nomination as ambassador through his panel earlier this year.

“I’m not going to make any comment about the political. None,” the senator added.

While Romney was very critical of Obama in a morning statement on the Libya attacks, senior Republicans across the board avoided criticizing the administration shortly after Stevens’ death was announced.

Obama didn’t even get a mention in most GOP press statements blasted Wednesday morning.

“We mourn for the families of our countrymen in Benghazi, and condemn this horrific attack,” House Speaker John Boehner said in a statement Wednesday.

“Eleven years after September 11, this is a jolting reminder that freedom remains under siege by forces around the globe who relish violence over free expression, and terror over democracy — and that America and free people everywhere must remain vigilant in defense of our liberties.”

Majority Leader Eric Cantor and Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell also declined to invoke Obama, signaling that for a second day in a row this was a time for Americans to come together and put election-year politics on hold. On Tuesday, Republicans and Democrats gathered on the steps of the Capitol to mark the 11th anniversary of the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks.

“Our thoughts and sympathy today are with the families of these brave Americans,” McConnell, a Kentucky Republican, said on the Senate floor. “These attacks remind us of the sacrifices made on a daily basis by foreign service officers, diplomatic security personnel, and our Marine Security Guards.”

Three of the most important voices on foreign policy — Sens. John McCain (R-Ariz.), Lindsey Graham (R-S.C.) and Joe Lieberman (I-Conn.) — said they were “anguished and outraged” by the deaths of American diplomats, and considered Stevens a “friend.” But they, too, didn’t see fit to criticize the president the way Romney did.

“In the midst of last year’s uprising in Libya, Chris traveled at great personal risk to Benghazi to represent the country he loved as the U.S. envoy to the Libyan opposition,” the senators said in a joint statement.

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0912/81103.html?hp=l1

nailingit — September 12, 2012 at 4:17 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Hi nailingit. My post was pretty vague, I will give you that. I was not one of those people saying we should be in Libya. In my opinion when you throw the dictators out of these third world countries, you just replace them with another set of radicals. In regards to my statement about Obama being cozy with radicals. I am referring to the muslim brotherhood. A radical anti West/anti freedom terrorist organization that the President has embraced and helped into power. Egypt is the recipient of 1.3 billion os US aid, thugs storm our embassy which is an act of war and demand Obama to apologize for a movie they don't like. Rather than telling them we honor our First Amendement, he caves like a coward and calls the movie "an abuse of the First Amendement" His foreign policy has encouraged revolutions that have brought our worst enemies to power in the Middle East . The problems in the middle east are not because of Israel, it is due to the radical ideology of religious fanatics.

I support the President's use of drone's to take out the terrorists and I do appreciate that he has continued these policies. However his constant attempt at pleasing radicals is making the middle east more dangerous everyday.

In regards to Fox News. I actually was just referring to the photo. Who is and who is not a credible news organization is in the opinion of the individual. For every person that hates FOX, there are twice as many who believe MSNBC is a joke. For the record, I watch news from a wide variety of news sources that include MSNBC, CNN, etc. Can you say the same? Can you remove your hatred of FOX enough to use them as a news source? If not, I would say hello pot..

Woosker — September 12, 2012 at 4:19 p.m. ( | suggest removal


hawkeye — September 12, 2012 at 1:49 p.m.

Now why would you say I should start my own blog and leave this one(???) alone? It's a forum, not a blog first of all and secondly...

This ***"O P E N F O R U M"*** is OPEN to EVERYONE WHO HAS QUESTIONS, WHO WISH TO DISCUSS ISSUES, TO EXPRESS THEIR CONCERNS AND TO EXPRESS THOSE CONCERNS WHILE ABIDING BY THE RULES. Nobody is obligated to join in on the discussion I have generated. I didn't ask anyone in particular to answer me. I'd asked a general question of those who consider themselves atheists, who felt compelled to answer. Is it so bad that I'm trying to understand why those who are self-proclaimed atheists would celebrate our freedom, our patriotism who would admit singing these songs...knowing all too well the songs are prayers???

I do not see the problem with asking what I have asked.

Instead Hawkeye, you have decided the route of insult and urging banishment from this forum. Since when did you become the supreme ruler???

goldenoldie — September 12, 2012 at 4:26 p.m. ( | suggest removal


NOAA issues a Red Flag Warning for Clark County beginning at 8:00 pm tonight through to 5:00 pm tomorrow night.

goldenoldie — September 12, 2012 at 4:45 p.m. ( | suggest removal


*His foreign policy has encouraged revolutions that have brought our worst enemies to power in the Middle East .*

If that means paving a way for a people to elect a democratically controlled government, whether we agree with it or not, then maybe. Hamas is in power due to the Bush admin crafting policy in this manner. I think we should be less engaged at times because true democracy comes from within, but understand at some level the intricate dynamics involved and the possible need for intervention in some cases. I'm better off left to play a game of Risk to hone my geopolitical strategy skills than in this arena! This stuff is better left to folks much smarter and well educated in this area than I! :))

Woosker-*Can you remove your hatred of FOX enough to use them as a news source? If not, I would say hello pot..*

It's not a matter of hating a news organization. It's a matter of factual reporting and getting the news right. One could argue MSNBC has a liberal slant as much Fox has a conservative slant. All well and good. The difference is Fox has a propensity to lie, omit and re-shape the news to fit their agenda and MSNBC does not. I think NBC acts in a way to insure this. If I'm wrong please provide some examples.

WASHINGTON — To Mitt Romney, it seemed like an opportunity to draw a stark contrast: Protests were erupting in Cairo and Benghazi, Libya, apparently over an anti-Islamic video, the White House was in a nasty spat with the Israelis, and administration officials in Cairo had put out a statement urging religious tolerance. From the perspective of the Republican’s campaign, the time was ripe to cast President Obama again as someone apologizing for America who abandoned longtime allies and failed to defend American interests.

So on Tuesday evening, Mr. Romney, according to his staff, signed off on a blunt attack on a statement issued early in the day — before the first protests had happened — by the American Embassy in Cairo. The Romney comment characterized the embassy statement as a weak White House response to violence at American diplomatic facilities in Egypt and Libya that ended up claiming the life of the ambassador to Libya and three others.

“It’s disgraceful that the Obama administration’s first response was not to condemn attacks on our diplomatic missions, but to sympathize with those who waged the attacks,” said the statement, issued about 10:30 p.m.

But by Wednesday morning, as the sequence of events and the scope of the tragedy in Benghazi became more clear, Mr. Romney’s initial statement and ensuing comments were coming under attack as clumsy at best. By later in the day, even some Republican allies were declining to follow his lead, and some acknowledged that he looked as if he was trying to score points in the middle of a crisis.

Read more @

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/13/us/politics/behind-romneys-decision-to-criticize-obama-on-libya.html?pagewanted=all

nailingit — September 12, 2012 at 4:47 p.m. ( | suggest removal


And woosker it's great to have your input. Part of our great democracy is predicated in part on we have the right to agree to disagree.

Or as I've always said, "everyone has a right to be wrong." :)))

nailingit — September 12, 2012 at 4:53 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Instead Hawkeye, you have decided the route of insult and urging banishment from this forum. Since when did you become the supreme ruler???
goldenoldie — September 12, 2012 at 4:26 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal | Ignore User )

Tongue in cheeck, yeah hawkeye, stop upsetting goldenoldie the queen of a country called DRAMA.

soapbox4u — September 12, 2012 at 4:56 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Nailingit. I sure do appreciate your thoughtful response. It's really nice to have a mature conversation. That does not always happen! A couple examples of MSNBC/NBC distorting the truth: The distortion of Mitt Romney comments regarding WaWa sandwich. If you are going to quote somebody, you can't edit the part you want and leave out the rest of the sentence. Another example, NBC news was forced to apologize for doctoring a clip of the 911 tape made by George Zimmerman. MSNBC Pop Culture Contributor Toure attacked CNN's Piers Morgan for being too willing to hear both sides of the story. Again, he was forced to apologize after he pissed a bunch of people off. Those are a few I can think of off the top of my head.

Woosker — September 12, 2012 at 5:19 p.m. ( | suggest removal


*. Do you see this as a sign that this might be the climax of a cyclical pattern or is this yet another sign that the issue of anthropogenic climate change or a continued increase of CO2 levels are on the upswing?*

goldenoldie — September 12, 2012 at 1:35 p.m.

There isn't any natural cyclical pattern that isn't being overwhelmed by the increased CO2 from burning fossil fuels and deforestation.

So, the ice news is one more signal of what we are doing.

http://nsidc.org/arcticseaicenews/

http://www.ipcc.ch/publications_and_data/ar4/wg1/en/spmsspm-human-and.html

http://climate.nasa.gov/quiz/index.cfm

http://www.esrl.noaa.gov/gmd/ccgg/trends/

http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/sotc/global/2012/7

http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/EN.ATM.CO2E.PC

mr_basil_seal — September 12, 2012 at 5:28 p.m. ( | suggest removal


woosker- Not up on the ZIM or WaWa, but I'll take your word for it. Pretty much referring to the political arena. With Fox they seem to have an enduring agenda to reshape the political landscape that's more than pervasive as it has an impact on the electorate.

If we were to draw a two sided column which represented falsehoods from both networks. I think the one on the 'right' would need additional reams of paper!

I don't see much of a difference with Romney policy (at least what he has revealed) than Bush, do you?

nailingit — September 12, 2012 at 5:46 p.m. ( | suggest removal


mr_basil_seal — September 12, 2012 at 5:28 p.m.

"So, the ice news is one more signal of what we are doing." And what we have been doing.

Thanks, mr_b!

goldenoldie — September 12, 2012 at 5:55 p.m. ( | suggest removal


soapbox4u — September 12, 2012 at 4:56 p.m.

Okay now, that's funny. No royalty...just a lot of drama from all directions here in the forum.

goldenoldie — September 12, 2012 at 5:58 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Hey Woosker...

I think we're witnessing a lot more distortions of truth in the news lately but I'm beginning to wonder sometimes if it's because they aren't getting the whole story and are winging it at release time.

..

Okay Captcha...*REALLY????* """pubiic""" ???

Must be they're running out of letter and number combinations.

goldenoldie — September 12, 2012 at 6:02 p.m. ( | suggest removal


goldenoldie — September 12, 2012 at 4:26 p.m.

***Since when WASN'T I Supreme Ruler????***

If ANY of those songs are prayers, when was the last time you sang ANY of them in church?

I'll bet you never have.

Also, since our money says "In God we Trust", does that mean it's religious money?

OK, riddle me this goldie, since you are the know all/ tell all about religion, who's God is the supreme ultimate God in charge of all the other Gods? Is it the Mormon God, or is that only if Romney gets elected? Maybe it's the Jewish God, no that can't be, they don't believe in Hell. Come on, out with it!

hawkeye — September 12, 2012 at 6:24 p.m. ( | suggest removal


woosker/others- This is an extremely important narrative to be played out. Retaliation for a downed Al-Qeada leader as opposed to religious zealots protesting some video. So continues the on going war with Al-Qeada and those that harbor them. Obama been very strong in this area. This message of appeasement and being soft has zero place within this frame work or any other.

Now is a time for Americans to unify on this front and encourage the destruction of what is left of Al-Qeada. Romney has proven he's not ready for prime time and this very well could be the last defining nail in his "**crypt**ic policies and run for presidency.

OBAMA/BIDEN 2012

**Pro-al Qaeda group seen behind deadly Benghazi attack**

(CNN) -- A pro-al Qaeda group responsible for a previous armed assault on the U.S. Consulate in Benghazi is the chief suspect in Tuesday's attack that killed the U.S. ambassador to Libya, sources tracking militant Islamist groups in eastern Libya say.
They also note that the attack immediately followed a call from al Qaeda leader Ayman al-Zawahiri for revenge for the death in June of a senior Libyan member of the terror group Abu Yahya al-Libi.

The group suspected to be behind the assault -- the Imprisoned Omar Abdul Rahman Brigades -- first surfaced in May, when it claimed responsibility for an attack on the International Red Cross office in Benghazi. The following month the group claimed responsibility for detonating an explosive device outside the U.S. Consulate, and later released a video of that attack.

Noman Benotman, once a leading member of the Libyan Islamic Fighting Group and now based at the Quilliam Foundation in London told CNN, "An attack like this would likely have required preparation. This would not seem to be merely a protest which escalated."
Slain ambassador died 'trying to help build a better Libya'

"According to our sources, the attack was the work of roughly 20 militants, prepared for a military assault; it is rare that an RPG7 is present at a peaceful protest," Benotman said.
"According to our sources, the attack against the consulate had two waves. The first attack led to U.S. officials being evacuated from the consulate by Libyan security forces, only for the second wave to be launched against U.S. officials after they were kept in a secure location."
That analysis is supported by U.S. sources who say the attack on the consulate is believed to have been pre-planned. The sources say the attackers used the protest as a diversion to launch the attack, although the sources could not say if the attackers instigated the protest or merely took advantage of it.

http://www.cnn.com/2012/09/12/world/africa/libya-attack-jihadists/index.html

nailingit — September 12, 2012 at 6:48 p.m. ( | suggest removal


I'll repeat two posts I made on the facebook side.

Here's one.

Brandenburg v. Ohio, 1969, limited the scope of banned speech to that which would be directed to and likely to incite imminent lawless action (e.g. a riot).

Anyone who believes this film wouldn't enrage the Muslim world is clueless, to put it politely. Bacile should be arrested and tried as an accessory to the murder of Ambassador Stevens, 3 other US citizens, and the Libyan security guards who died trying to protect the Ambassador. His film was deliberately inflammatory, and could only be based on a hatred for an entire religion.

roger — September 12, 2012 at 6:58 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Romney not only failed the 3:00 in the morning distress call test, he picked up the phone and dialed the wrong number! I find few issues more engaging than these types of geopolitical situations. It's so important to have a President who is a well informed/intelligent thoughtful pragmatist with important issues such as this.

Remember Dubya? Rummy? Cheney?

I'm thankful this day to have a competent President complimented with a good administration.

nailingit — September 12, 2012 at 7:01 p.m. ( | suggest removal


OK - 3 posts. Here's parts of two others.

Read the article. The Libyan president condemns the attack and vows to bring the killers to justice. If this interim government has any hope of surviving we HAVE to support them in this. Otherwise, we show a lack of trust in them and the Islamic Brotherhood will take control.

Read the update - even the leader of an ultraconservative Libyan Muslim group said “We never approve of killing civilians, especially those who helped us....” And our Administration has responded, and will probably do more in the coming days and weeks. When/if the masterminds behind this riot are identified, I suspect their lifespans won't be very long. The ones the Libyan gov't can't capture and execute better keep a constant eye on the sky.

So, what would you prefer the Pres do? Send in our military in force? Who do we attack? Maybe we should follow the Nazi German example from Warsaw - just rope off entire sections of the city and attack everyone? Maybe have our troops sing Onward Christian Soldiers while they march forth to slaughter everyone in sight?

roger — September 12, 2012 at 7:02 p.m. ( | suggest removal


roger, the video was being protested somewhat, but most likely wasn't the impetus for this attack. See article @ 6:48. We need to take a step back and look at the larger picture.

We'll see how this plays out, but my $$$ on a coordinated attack from Al-Qaeda involving retaliation.

nailingit — September 12, 2012 at 7:08 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Why aren't all the hawks who want to go to war in the Middle East down at the local recruiting stations?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=01-2pN...

roger — September 12, 2012 at 7:08 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Roger. The beauty of the1st amendment is that we have a right to say what we want regardless of who does not like it. Left or right. Sane or insane. The only people to be blammed are the murdering thugs. Thats the difference between us and the radicals. They murder peoe with different opinions, we just argue. Hold blame where it belongs not with free speech.

Woosker — September 12, 2012 at 7:11 p.m. ( | suggest removal


**luvithere — September 12, 2012 at 6:18 a.m**

*I don't think you need to fight for your first amendment right to practice your religion. I just feel I need to fight for my first amendment right to be free of religion.*

hi luv. i'm referring to the attempt to force catholics to pay for procedures their faith tells them they must not support. are you planning to support our right to practice our religion?

i'm also referring to the right of families and clergy to bring bibles into military hospitals when visiting family or parishioners. gonna support that, too?

or how about the demand that all crosses be taken down at memorial sights marking deaths on highways? or putting crosses on soldier's graves in military cemeteries? or the 'soldier's cross' that's used to mark the combat death of a comrade?

these are some of the attacks on religion.

what are some of the ways you're being forced to practice someone's religion?

DeeLittle — September 12, 2012 at 7:14 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Roger & Nailingit. Interesting article on CNN regarding exactly what you stated nailingit..

http://www.cnn.com/2012/09/12/opinion/benotman-libya-attack/index.html?hpt=hp_c1

It's on the front page of CNN's website.

Nailingit. Regarding Romney. I think Romney understands economics in a way few President's do. In my opinion, he is the right person due to the state of our economy. I think Bush spent money like a drunken sailor and Obama just went with that, poured gasoline all over his spending and lit it on fire. He made Bush's insane spending look like childs play which it was not. It's outrageous how much debt we have. I really don't give a hoot about some of the smaller issues. Controling debt by managing our money correctly & national security are the two main functions of government.

Woosker — September 12, 2012 at 7:19 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Golden - I don't think the media puts out distortions because they are not getting the whole story. I think both sides have an agenda at times. Both left and right have done this. It's pretty sad that they can't just report the news without putting in their slant. The media as a whole is not very respected and neither side is really trusted.

Woosker — September 12, 2012 at 7:24 p.m. ( | suggest removal


woosker- Rachel Maddow went in depth on this subject tonight, to include a report from Richard Engel on location. (show is on again @ 9:00. It doesn't get better than Engel as a foreign correspondent/imbed). Al-Qaeda even promised a 9/11 timeframe for the attack.

Romney needs to lay out some nuts & bolts in the coming days with regards to the economy/balancing the budget/tax structure/Medicare etc. So far it's "trust me". That doesn't cut it, and even many right wing politico's/politicians are insisting on details. What few ideas he's put forth say his numbers don't add up. One reason I'm looking forward to the debates. I'm sure recent events will also shape a few questions on foreign policy.

nailingit — September 12, 2012 at 7:34 p.m. ( | suggest removal


*So, what would you prefer the Pres do? Send in our military in force?
roger — September 12, 2012 at 7:02 p.m*

Already started roger, they have sent in 50 member team of FAST and 2 destroyers carrying tomahawk missiles..

ELISI — September 12, 2012 at 7:42 p.m. ( | suggest removal


*Romney needs to lay out some nuts & bolts in the coming days with regards to the economy/balancing the budget/tax structure/Medicare etc.*

Funny no one asked for any of that last election when all we heard was 2 words.."hope and change"

ELISI — September 12, 2012 at 7:45 p.m. ( | suggest removal


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jmH2hF...

The latest Obama ad on said subject.

nailingit — September 12, 2012 at 8 p.m. ( | suggest removal


I remember posting about this awhile back. At least Senate GOP have been "stiff-armed" by Democrats on this matter. Now it's getting the DOD on board. The way some politicians treat our returning Vets are shameful. (Patty Murry quotes the HuffPo :))

**WASHINGTON** -- Help for combat-wounded troops who want to start families became a bit more likely Wednesday as Senate Democrats stiff-armed GOP opposition to a bill that would provide broader fertility treatment benefits.

Currently, the Department of Veterans Affairs and the Defense Department provide some limited benefits to military couples who cannot have children because the husband or wife was injured in combat. But both the VA and the Pentagon specifically deny benefits to couples who cannot conceive on their own and need assisted reproductive services such as sperm donors, egg donors or other surrogates.

---

The Litynskis and others who cannot have children because of combat injuries had hoped the Pentagon policy would be broadened. In a generally effective system of military health care, "this is one ugly hole," Heather Litynski told HuffPost this summer.

In a meeting Wednesday of the Senate Veterans Committee, Chairwoman Patty Murray (D-Wash.) read from the HuffPost story on the Litynskis and declared, "I am not willing to keep this ugly hole open."

Murray said there are nearly 2,000 servicemen and servicewomen who have suffered genital wounds in combat. All of those who want to have children deserve the support of the nation, she said, not just those who fall into specific categories. "It is not our place to pick winners and losers based on the severity of their wounds," she declared.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/09/12/combat-injuries_n_1879014.html

nailingit — September 12, 2012 at 8:48 p.m. ( | suggest removal


roger @ 6:58- More than a slippery slope you're suggesting. I'll have go with the woosker @ 7:11 on this. If bad taste and being irresponsible was a crime than I'm with you.

Of course anyone who enjoys Sarah Palin rants would be prosecutable also! :)))

nailingit — September 12, 2012 at 8:57 p.m. ( | suggest removal



**Gary Johnson on ballot in 47 states**

The Libertarian Party reports that Gary Johnson will be on the ballot in at least 47 states, plus the District of Columbia.

The party is involved in litigation to get him on the ballot in the three remaining states, Oklahoma, Pennsylvania and Michigan, where a judge ruled last week that Johnson could not appear on the ballot because he also ran as a Republican in the state’s February presidential primary.

Johnson is already on the ballot in two more states than the 2008 Libertarian nominee, Bob Barr.

Barr, a former Georgia congressman, won just 0.4 percent of the national vote. But in Missouri and North Carolina, the two closest states in 2008, he won enough votes to flip the outcome.

Johnson’s campaign is being closely watched for the same reason. With his base of support grounded in the Rocky Mountain West, Johnson has the potential to alter the outcome in swing states such as Colorado and Nevada.

http://www.politico.com/blogs/charlie-mahtesian/2012/09/gary-johnson-on-ballot-in-states-135285.html?hp=l17

nailingit — September 12, 2012 at 10:28 p.m. ( | suggest removal


**U.S. launching apparent terrorist hunt in Libya**

(CBS/AP) WASHINGTON - The Obama administration, roiled by the first killing of a U.S. ambassador in more than 30 years, has begun what appears to be a terrorist hunt in Libya, as evidence mounts that the deaths of four diplomatic workers there were perpetrated by well-armed thugs and not an out-of-control crowd.

CBS News correspondent David Martin reports the FBI has opened an investigation into the deaths, and agents will be sent to sift through the wreckage for evidence. They will be accompanied by a second team sent just for their protection.

As part of the hunt for the attackers, officials say the U.S. will increase its surveillance over Libya, including the use of unmanned drones. In addition, the U.S. Navy is positioning two destroyers armed with cruise missiles off the coast of Libya.

One destroyer, the USS Laboon, moved to a position off the coast Wednesday, and the USS McFaul is en route and should be stationed off the coast within days. Officials said the ships, which carry Tomahawk cruise missiles, do not have a specific mission. But they give commanders flexibility to respond to any mission ordered by the president.

The investigation will focus on whether the assault on the U.S. Consulate in Libya was a planned terrorist strike to mark the anniversary of the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks and not a spontaneous mob enraged over an anti-Islam YouTube video.

After the attack, an elite anti-terrorist unit of about 40 Marines was flown in to beef up security at the American embassy in the capital of Tripoli. Air Force transport planes flew the bodies of the dead Americans out, along with at least three who were injured and the rest of the approximately 25 diplomats assigned to the consulate. At the same time, the U.S. State Department urged all non-essential personnel to leave on commercial flights.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-202_162-57511645/u.s-launching-apparent-terrorist-hunt-in-libya/?tag=contentMain;contentBody

nailingit — September 12, 2012 at 10:42 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Woosker — September 12, 2012 at 7:24 p.m.

Sensible thinking, indeed...and I wholeheartedly agree. I appreciate you getting back to my comment to you. Thanks.

goldenoldie — September 13, 2012 at 5:42 a.m. ( | suggest removal


**hawkeye — September 12, 2012 at 6:24 p.m.**

The only time you're any kind of ruler in any domain Hawkeye...is in your words and your conscience, my friend. There's no ruler of the forum. We all control our conscience and what it is we post.

*Regarding the question of God...*

It is *my* belief that God is represented only by a name, be it Catholic, Muslim, Jewish, Native American, Hindu or any other type of faith in the world...atheism as well. Yes, atheism IS a religion. Those who are atheists obviously hold true to their beliefs religiously.

God could be considered as the beginning of life through the Big Bang. The label "God" doesn't necessarily portray a picture of some extremely tall, grandfatherly figure. God could also be "Mother Earth," the caregiver of all that lives. You hear of the term "God Is..." well, that's because nobody truly knows but it's a belief of strength, of compassion, of conscience.

You hear of many preachers and pastors claiming God tells them to say this and to do that. Well, Hawkeye...I'd say someone is hearing voices (and I know that will make some uncomfortable that I say this so I hope they are patient with what I share). What we hear in our heads is our own conscience directing us to say and to do what we think is right, and it is that conscience which has been developed from the day we were born. It is what our parents and our teachers and our mentors have taught us as we have evolved into adults...hence the reason why some whose families were less than adequate have very little conscience. Sometimes...we make mistakes, but we learn from those mistakes.

For those of us who were raised in a religious upbringing as I was, the name of God was brought into the picture...God will be angry, God will be glad. God wouldn't want you to do this or that, or God would praise you. Other homes, it was referred to as Yahweh or Alla or Buddha...it's a name, a label...something to identify our conscience with. Nothing wrong with it as this is most likely what our parents, parents have taught them and so on and so forth. Jesus Christ is referred to as the Son of God...Jesus is Lord; He is God. Well Hawkeye, for those of us who follow the Christian Faith (maybe not to the letter, but we try), it is my belief that Jesus Christ was a man of strength in conscience, was quite intellectual and was highly revered by those who faithfully followed the word of God. They couldn't find answers through their own faith and heard and saw how The Enlightened One handled situations...and they liked what they saw. This has gone on for 2012 years plus and today, folks such as myself still believe his words were and are true and hold to the belief that he was an honest man to be honored...whose words were to be followed.

*Honesty*...something you don't see or hear much of these days.

goldenoldie — September 13, 2012 at 6:01 a.m. ( | suggest removal


And Hawkeye...I've never considered myself a Know All/Tell All of religion. I share what I truly believe in. I ask questions and hope for answers so that I can understand others' perspectives. I don't answer in riddles. I'm as straight forward as I can possibly be when asked as I explain my point of view.

BTW...Amendment I of the US Constitution does not say that atheism is a religion...doesn't say it isn't; but in the eyes of anybody who follows faith as I do, I recognize it as such and folks who are atheists have just as much right to practice what they preach and to share with others without prejudice by our government. It is the level of conscience by all who exist that displays the prejudice by others and ourselves.

I hope I've explained to you and everyone exactly where I'm coming from when it comes to God, Jesus Christ and religious faith. These are the beliefs this child of a Roman Catholic household have held to my entire life which may in some part, not be following of the Catholic faith...but it is *my* faith that I believe and is not to be prejudiced upon...unless the person has no conscience.

When I speak of conscience in my statement, I am referring to "part A," Merriam Webster Dictionary definition which states

"The sense or consciousness of the moral goodness or blameworthiness of one's own conduct, intentions, or character together with a feeling of obligation to do right or be good."

goldenoldie — September 13, 2012 at 6:12 a.m. ( | suggest removal


nailingit — September 12, 2012 at 10:28 p.m.

You forgot to mention that recent polling shows Johnson pulling more votes from Obama than Romney.

frobert — September 13, 2012 at 6:57 a.m. ( | suggest removal


Anyone else find it odd that in the last 2 months that 1 hotel has burned, pylons of a second hotel has caught on fire and a restaurant has caught on fire not once, but twice and they are all
on the waterfront in the area of where the bridge is to be placed?

ELISI — September 13, 2012 at 7:46 a.m. ( | suggest removal


DeeLittle — September 12, 2012 at 2:32 a.m.

Unfortunately, the news I get is piecemeal. By Monday, I will most likely be caught up on news to the point everyone here is at right now.

Not being there, I don't know what orders the Marines recieved. I find it very hard to believe they would have been denied the right to self defense (this refers to a threat not just to themselves, but to those they are guarding on the site).

danabwoodley — September 13, 2012 at 7:47 a.m. ( | suggest removal


mr_basil_seal — September 12, 2012 at 9:27 a.m.

Thank you basil. For the life of me I couldn't remember the name of that logic box.

And not attempting to generate fear. Just offering some food for thought.

danabwoodley — September 13, 2012 at 7:55 a.m. ( | suggest removal


mr_basil_seal — September 12, 2012 at 9:33 a.m.

Refer to my previous post in which I explain how I personally practice my faith.

That being said, there are those who do not believe that are equally persistant and annoying in their unbelief as those extreme evangelists are in their. Articles such as the one you posted are just the tip of the iceberg.

If I wasn't clear with my opinion about the televangelists, then I will clarify now. Those that use the Christian faith as a basis to bash everyone who follows another faith, or no faith at all, disgust me. While it may be a unifying thing if everyone worshiped the same, I am not stupid enough to believe that will ever happen. What does concern me more is how a person lives. That one would lead a good life, regardless of who or what they worship or don't.

But I am also offended by those that will use a pulpit to denounce faith. The ones that are so deep in their unbelief, they either: a) publically try to justified the unbelief by finding flaws in belief or b) belittle the ones with faith and try to make them out to be fools.

danabwoodley — September 13, 2012 at 8:06 a.m. ( | suggest removal


nailingit — September 12, 2012 at 3:50 p.m.

Regarding you reference to the effectiveness against AQ and TB targets. I have a hypothosis I heard regarding this.

In 2008, the president campaigned on the closure of Guantanamo Bay detention facility (among other things). Shortly after being inaugurated, he signed an executive order calling for it's closure within a year.

2012, Gitmo is still up and operational.

The hypothosis is, to slow down the number of detainees being sent to Cuba, let's just target the enemy lethally. We may not be able to get any intel from them, but then we also won't have to worry about the people of the US seeing us still sending them to Gitmo.

As I said, just a possible explanation.

danabwoodley — September 13, 2012 at 8:17 a.m. ( | suggest removal


roger — September 12, 2012 at 6:58 p.m.

Bill Maher produced the movie Religulous. Didn't see any religions up in arms over that one, and basically bashed all of them.

So it only incites riots when directed at Islam?

danabwoodley — September 13, 2012 at 8:26 a.m. ( | suggest removal


danabwoodley — September 13, 2012 at 8:17 a.m.

The only reason Gitmo is still open is because there was no state in the Union that was willing to house the inhabitants from the prison there. There needs to be a place to put them that's secure and defensible and that doesn't exist in the states. That, and no other country (ally) is willing to take them. Gitmo is the safest and most secure prison there is. The only other place would be Fort Knox, but they already have stuff to guard.

hawkeye — September 13, 2012 at 8:31 a.m. ( | suggest removal


Its seems we never learn. We armed insurgents in Afghanistan against the Russians, only to go back and face them and those weapons. We arm an insurgency in Libya, and we get rocket propelled grenades fired into the embassy. Maybe before we get involved in the Middle East we should ask if arming folks that probably include anti-American jihadists a good idea?

And while we wonder why folks can get so bent over a film, other folks are wondering how a country can be so cruel and barbaric to aid despotic regimes, both secular and monarcial, invade Iraq killing hundreds of thousands while knocking it back to the Stone Age, kill thousands of innocent people with drone attacks and chalk it up as a "mistake", occupy Afghanistan for years, unflinchingly support Israel, and on and on. Small wonder.

mrd — September 13, 2012 at 8:32 a.m. ( | suggest removal


Sorry if it seems like I just rapid fired, but got pretty engaged in numerous projects and finally had a chance to catch up with everyone.

danabwoodley — September 13, 2012 at 8:35 a.m. ( | suggest removal


*You forgot to mention that recent polling shows Johnson pulling more votes from Obama than Romney.*

frobert — September 13, 2012 at 6:57 a.m.

Not sure what I forgot frobert. I printed the article in it's entirety. As for pulling more votes from Obama than Romney..............

**Spoiler alert: Poll finds small following for Libertarian candidate**

The poll also finds that Johnson's inclusion, along with the Green Party's candidate Jill Stein, hurts Republican candidate Mitt Romney more than it does President Barack Obama.

Obama leads Romney 52% to 46% when Romney and Obama are the only candidates in question, but Romney's support goes down three percentage points with the inclusion of the third party candidates. Obama's support only drops one point.

Read more @

http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2012/09/10/spoiler-alert-poll-finds-small-following-for-libertarian-candidate/

And from a Libertarian website...

“A new Zogby poll suggests that Libertarian Party Presidential nominee Gov. Gary Johnson could throw the presidential election to President Obama, with the anti-government candidate taking enough votes from Mitt Romney to give Obama a narrow edge,” writes veteran White House Reporter Keith Koffler.

http://www.lp.org/blogs/staff/gov-gary-johnson-polls-43-against-obama-and-romney

nailingit — September 13, 2012 at 9:02 a.m. ( | suggest removal


*And not attempting to generate fear. Just offering some food for thought.*

danabwoodley — September 13, 2012 at 7:55 a.m.

Might want to read up on Pascal's Wager. Fear is basically the whole point.

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/pascal-wager/

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Pascal's_wager

mr_basil_seal — September 13, 2012 at 9:02 a.m. ( | suggest removal


Here are some excerpts from a David Ignatious OP-ED from The Washington Post. A benefit of using a different source rather than the original is that they are free. The W.P. WJS NYT etc. all are charging a fee (with the exception of targeted articles) for their usage. That's why the HuffPo is a great source with most articles/opinion from other sources that would normally charge.

I disagree with Ignatious on much, but his understanding of foreign policy takes a back seat to few. Geopolitics are intricate and complex. This Romney thing, the intellect, that as Obama put it "shooting before he aims" is more than dangerous on the world stage. Please check this article out. There is a lot more going on than what meets the eye.

**Column: David Ignatius on the violence in Libya and Cairo**

What's happening on the ground in Cairo and Benghazi appears to be a case of political opportunism — no, not by Mitt Romney, though there was some of that Wednesday — but by Salafist Islamic extremists who are unhappy with the success that the more moderate Islamist and secularist parties in Egypt and Libya have had in building political support.

We're still in what I like to call the "fog of revolution" in both countries, where it's hard to know for sure what's happening and who benefits, so my reporting comes with a basic caveat. But based on conversations with sources who were on the streets Tuesday in the midst of the Cairo demonstration, and who have been following events in Libya closely, it's possible to pierce the fog a bit and offer some basic analysis:
Qaida. The takfiris hate the ruling Muslim Brotherhood, if that's any consolation.

An analyst who was in the midst of that crowd Tuesday told me he thinks the Salafist demonstrators were using the pretext of a supposedly anti-Islamic American film to send two messages: The first was obviously anti-Americanism, which is potent in today's Egypt; the second and more interesting message was a challenge by the Salafists to their rivals in the Muslim Brotherhood government of President Mohamed Morsi.

..

The delicate political balance in Egypt and Libya makes the blunderbuss campaign rhetoric of Romney, the Republican presidential candidate, especially unfortunate. His comments make this crisis more "about America" than it needs to be.

Let's return to the main trigger for these events: It's the success of the tolerably non-extremist (I won't say "moderate") governments in Egypt and Libya in consolidating power, and the anger of the more radical Salafists at this success. Morsi, for example, has just won pledges of billions in financial support from Saudi Arabia and Qatar. The Gulf Arabs are making a bet that over the next year, Morsi can stabilize Egypt and get the economy moving again. Despite Tuesday's tragic events, the U.S. should make the same bet.

Please read more @

http://www2.journalnow.com/news/opinion/2012/sep/13/wsopin02-column-david-ignatius-on-piercing-the-fog-ar-2602309/

nailingit — September 13, 2012 at 9:47 a.m. ( | suggest removal


And while we wonder why folks can get so bent over a film, other folks are wondering how a country can be so cruel and barbaric to aid despotic regimes, both secular and monarcial, invade Iraq killing hundreds of thousands while knocking it back to the Stone Age, kill thousands of innocent people with drone attacks and chalk it up as a "mistake", occupy Afghanistan for years, unflinchingly support Israel, and on and on. Small wonder.

mrd — September 13, 2012 at 8:32 a.m.

mrd- Bravo! Well stated. So many Americans get caught up in a version of one sided patriotism and "America can do no wrong" attitude, they refuse to hold our politicians
accountable for disasters like Iraq.

There's a reason for so much anti-American sentiment. The religious right would like to make it a Jesus v Allah war, when by and large your write points to the crux of the problem.

When I first moved to Germany just months after 9/11, our car (a beater purchased over the net until we got settled) broke down in a low income Muslim/Arab neighborhood in Hanau. Me, my wife & two young daughters found a small eatery to wait out someone to help us. We spent two and a half hours waiting while Arabic TV was airing political news and several highly undesirable types of Middle East origin frequented the place.

The evil eye took on new meaning, and before we left we felt there was a decent chance of us being targeted by troublemakers. It was stay there or roam the neighborhood. We stayed.

I was pretty naive about large sub sets of Muslim populations living so close to a major city. In Hanau which is about a half hour from Frankfurt. A lesson learned. Long story short it inspired me to understand some of the ins n outs of Geopolitics, and how our policy relates.

We've garnered hate for generations to come with our unjust short-sided invasion of Iraq.

About a year later I vacationed in Amsterdam and caught a taxi which was driven by an Iraqi national. He was excited to talk to an American about how happy he was that the Iraq invasion took place, He said his sister had a clothing business and was now able to keep most of her profits, whereas before Saddam took 90% of them. I told him to be careful of what he wished for. We talked at length, even after I was at my destination. I asked him where he/his sister were from and he said KirKuk. He seemed to be good people that only wanted the best for his country and America.

I read where another suicide bombing took place just the other day in Kirkuk claiming many lives. I sometimes think of that taxi ride and the hope of the Iraqi people.

Than like many Americans in Amsterdam, I visited a few coffee shops and ordered mushrooms on my pizza!

nailingit — September 13, 2012 at 10:25 a.m. ( | suggest removal


BIG NEWS!

**Fed Announces Aggressive New Stimulus To Combat Unemployment**

Federal Reserve Chairman Ben Bernanke. The Fed announced its latest monetary policy decision on Thursday.
The Fed just hit the economy with a double-barreled blast of stimulus.
The Federal Reserve on Thursday announced a new round of bond buying, with the new wrinkle of basically leaving the program open-ended. It also stretched out its promise to keep short-term interest rates near zero by a year, "at least through mid-2015."

The moves will be controversial, particularly coming less than two months ahead of a heated presidential election. The Fed is already being accused of risking runaway inflation with its previous stimulus programs. And now it will likely come under fire for trying to boost the economy, which could benefit President Obama's re-election chances.

But the Fed apparently felt it had no choice but to act in response to stubbornly high unemployment, sluggish economic growth and the risk of a fiscal-cliff recession at the turn of the year.

"The Committee is concerned that, without further policy accommodation, economic growth might not be strong enough to generate sustained improvement in labor market conditions," the Federal Open Market Committee said in its statement.

As it was, some economists and market participants expressed disappointment that the Fed's new buying program was not bigger.

"Overall, the Fed has done all the markets were asking for," Paul Ashworth, chief U.S. economist at Capital Economics, wrote in a note. "The problem is that we doubt it will be enough to get the economy on the right track. It's only a matter of time before speculation begins as to when the Fed will raise its purchases."

Though financial markets had expected the Fed to act, they cheered the announcement nonetheless. The Dow Jones Industrial Average jumped 110 points in the minutes after the decision, up from a 12-point gain just before it.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/09/13/fed-stimulus-federal-reserve-qe_n_1881216.html

nailingit — September 13, 2012 at 10:48 a.m. ( | suggest removal


mrd — September 13, 2012 at 8:32 a.m

well stated! It behooves all of us to start looking at why such hate exists. Going back to colonial times, raping whole countries (India and Brits), deciding to establish new countries out of thin air (Iraq and Brits), deciding the white folks are better than anybody else, wholesale slaughter of natives of the American continent, crusades in the name of the religion, etc. etc. Long history of subjugating whole continents. Just look at some of the dates when some countries finally gained independence.

I want it clearly understood though that I have zero sympathy or understanding for such thugs as set up the latest round of attacks. Absolutely no condoning of anything like that.

luvithere — September 13, 2012 at 10:49 a.m. ( | suggest removal


I don't condone these attacks either. But I think taking a look from the other side's view is a good thing, and maybe re-think how we operate. Sending two naval destroyers with cruise missiles to Libya in response to the attacks seems rather, well weird, but so typical of American foreign policy. What can these ships due other than further agitate the situation? The embassy, I believe, has been evacuated and the personnel have left the country, so who's left to protect?

mrd — September 13, 2012 at 11:43 a.m. ( | suggest removal


It should go without saying no one in the basement condones these attacks in any way shape or form.

It's important to understand the reasoning and motivations for what's happening in order to better understand it. It's essential our political leaders and military have this mindset so they can be effective. The underpinnings of a newly established democracy are fragile and still being formed, acting irresponsibly would cause much lasting damage. Pragmatism balanced with a principled approach is the ticket in my opinion.

Politicians criticizing our leadership for political gain are more than irresponsible, displaying not only short-sidedness, but a willful intent to impede democracy and cause further harm to our country's image and stability. Un American to say the least. The media is what it is and will be judged in the aftermath.

It's one thing to exercise free speech & opinion, it's another to yell fire in a crowded geopolitical theatre. Romney and other politico's should continually be called on the carpet for this. Romney and right wing rhetoric continually/unjustly accuse Obama for apologizing for America on the world stage with zero basis in doing so.

This is one time when a Presidential candidate does need to apologize. To the American people and our Middle Eastern allies. I won't hold my breath.

---

Anyway, manthou, how was Crosby Stills and Nash last night?

nailingit — September 13, 2012 at 12:45 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Indications are that the attacks were staged, and planning was well advanced.

Extremists do not represent the total population. That goes for Arab countries and it goes for us here also (see talks about tele-preachers).

I think it would behoove us all to let Intel do its job and see what comes out.

Having taken the high road for national news, allow me now to indulge in local gossip with zero high-handedness. Those fires along the river...suspicious anybody?

luvithere — September 13, 2012 at 12:53 p.m. ( | suggest removal


nailingit — September 13, 2012 at 12:45 p.m.

This is one time when a Presidential candidate does need to apologize. To the American people and our Middle Eastern allies. I won't hold my breath.

Might I add, to the sitting President?

I personally find the person who made the offending film to be a major cause of this incident however, I also see the film as a possible excuse for the attack, not by the people protesting but possibly by Al-Qaeda (waiting in the wings to attack).

I often wonder if the Islamic people actually get upset over the misuse of the word Mohammed or if it's just used as an excuse to raise hell.

Honestly, I think they carry things a bit too far, but that's just me.

hawkeye — September 13, 2012 at 1:09 p.m. ( | suggest removal


*Those fires along the river...suspicious anybody?
luvithere — September 13, 2012 at 12:53 p.m*

Yes, I do, said so earlier. 4 fires total that I know of. In what 2 1/2 - 3 1/2 months all in 3 businesses, all in the area of where the new bridge, and ramps are going.

ELISI — September 13, 2012 at 2:17 p.m. ( | suggest removal


#Libya and the supreme crime of killing Americans
Glenn Greenwald

It is hard not to notice, and be disturbed by, the vastly different reactions whenever innocent Americans are killed, as opposed to when Americans are doing the killing of innocents.

1) The deaths of Ambassador Stevens, a former Peace Corps volunteer and a dedicated Arabic-speaking career diplomat, and the other three American staff, are both a tragedy and a senseless outrage. Indiscriminately murdering people over a film, no matter how offensive it is, is an unmitigated wrong. The blame lies fully and completely with those who committed these murders.
2) Sam Bacile and his cowardly anonymous donors are repellent cretins for producing this bottom-feeding, bigoted, hateful "film" that has no apparent purpose but to spread anti-Islamic hatred and provoke violent reactions. But just as was true of the Qur'an burnings by Pastor Terry Jones (who, unsurprisingly, has a prominent role in promoting this film), or the Danish Muhammad cartoons before that, it is – and it should be – an absolute, unfettered free speech right to produce films no matter how offensive their content might be.
The US has steadily eroded free speech rights in the name of fighting terrorism by criminalizing pure political speech it deems dangerous and prosecuting Muslims who express those prohibited ideas. Attempts to constrain the rights of individuals to produce anti-Muslim films like the trash produced by Bacile and friends are just as dangerous and wrong as all other efforts to constrain free speech. Free speech is a vital liberty – arguably, the central one – and what it means, at its core, is that the right to express even the most repellent and inflammatory ideas is just as inviolable as the right to express inoffensive or conventional ones.
3) It is hard not to notice, and be disturbed by, the vastly different reactions whenever innocent Americans are killed, as opposed to when Americans are doing the killing of innocents. All the rage and denunciations of these murders in Benghazi are fully justified, but one wishes that even a fraction of that rage would be expressed when the US kills innocent men, women and children in the Muslim world, as it frequently does. Typically, though, those deaths are ignored, or at best justified with amoral bureaucratic phrases ("collateral damage") or self-justifying cliches ("war is hell"), which Americans have been trained to recite.

http://stopwar.org.uk/index.php/libya/1867-libya-and-the-supreme-crime-of-killing-americans-when-others-dont-count

mr_basil_seal — September 13, 2012 at 2:26 p.m. ( | suggest removal


*I personally find the person who made the offending film to be a major cause of this incident however, I also see the film as a possible excuse for the attack, not by the people protesting but possibly by Al-Qaeda (waiting in the wings to attack).
I often wonder if the Islamic people actually get upset over the misuse of the word Mohammed or if it's just used as an excuse to raise hell.
Honestly, I think they carry things a bit too far, but that's just me.
hawkeye — September 13, 2012 at 1:09 p.m*

Can't say anything about the film, haven't seen it nor do I intend too. I understand that they get upset over the misuse of the word Mohammed and if the film showed blasphemy towards their God, I know I would feel upset if it were about mine.
I can see the protests, but to actually wage violence against another human or country for that matter is unreal.

IMO Al-Qaeda used the protesters and the film to carry out yet another act of violence against Americans. It's the extremes taking Bin Laden fed hate of us to his followers. My guess is yes, its his followers.

ELISI — September 13, 2012 at 2:31 p.m. ( | suggest removal


ELISI — September 13, 2012 at 2:17 p.m.

Paranoia will destroy ya

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_WJ6Fb...

frobert — September 13, 2012 at 2:33 p.m. ( | suggest removal


***OK, I posted this last week but I think it needs repeating***

My favorite speech from The American President;

America isn’t easy. America is advanced citizenship. You’ve gotta want it bad, ’cause it’s gonna put up a fight. It’s gonna say, “You want free speech? Let’s see you acknowledge a man whose words make your blood boil, who’s standing center stage and advocating at the top of his lungs that which you would spend a lifetime opposing at the top of yours.” You want to claim this land as the land of the free? Then the symbol of your country cannot just be a flag. The symbol also has to be one of its citizens exercising his right to burn that flag in protest. Now show me that, defend that, celebrate that in your classrooms.

hawkeye — September 13, 2012 at 2:39 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Elisi, I think the protesters themselves storming the embassy can easily compared with villagers a few centuries back, armed with the pitchforks, following one firebrand. Easily riled up, very uneducated, illiterate, you get the picture. One wrong word, one wrong deed, misconstrued, off they go.

Al Qaeda is a different story. I also tend to believe this was planned and organized. Dem pitchforks always came in handy with the dirty masses.

luvithere — September 13, 2012 at 3:05 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Those fires along the river...suspicious anybody? luvithere — September 13, 2012 at 12:53 p.m

Yes, I do, said so earlier. 4 fires total that I know of. In what 2 1/2 - 3 1/2 months all in 3 businesses, all in the area of where the new bridge, and ramps are going.

HEADLINE:"Arson not suspected in restaurant fire" Article: "Investigators determined the piling fire was caused by improperly disposed cigarettes, Stromberg said. There is no indication that the piling fire was related to the restaurant fire, he said."

As for the Double Tree in Oregon, 1 million dollars owed in back taxes is a pretty good motive for arson, although investigators have not determined of the cause of this fire yet.

soapbox4u — September 13, 2012 at 3:12 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Actually make that the Thunderbird Motel on Hayden Island.

soapbox4u — September 13, 2012 at 3:17 p.m. ( | suggest removal


If intel indicated a prime target could be taken at a given place and time AND intel advised there would be collateral damage should a missile or bomb strike be utilized, but there was no other way to engage within the time frame...

Let's say the innocent lives lost are estimated at five.
Let's say the savings in lives, by taking the target, was estimated at 500.

What would *you* do?

And regardless of your answer, how is that related to cold blooded murder over a video?

Not sayin', just askin'.

Drift — September 13, 2012 at 3:39 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Drift — September 13, 2012 at 3:39 p.m

To me it would depend on "the prime target" and what crimes had already been committed by him. I would prefer to send in someone to take him out one on one.

And it's not "murder" if it's justified.

hawkeye — September 13, 2012 at 3:53 p.m. ( | suggest removal


frobert — September 13, 2012 at 2:33 p.m

are you are turning into what the song implies?

ELISI — September 13, 2012 at 5:43 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Hawkeye - I love that quote from that movie as well. I have a different take than many of you on here. While America has made mistakes, they hate us not because we deserve it, they have us because they are radicals. They are lawless, violent and hate Christians and Jews. The Arab Spring has been a catastrophic failure. Instead of free nations with freedom of speech and worship, we have dangerous radical Islamic regimes that will oppress millions of people and forment violence all over the world.

These new leaders are committed to creating an Islamic republic and imposing Sharia law on the people as part of the Islamic caliphate. They have a deep hatred for Israel and the US. Theyare committed to holy war against all infidels, and the President of Egypt stated clearly he's going to turn Egypt into an Islami republic under sharia law. Morsi gave a speech at Cairo University in May "The Qur'an is our constitution, the Prophet is our leader, jihad is our path and death in the name of Allah is our goal"

People stop blaming the US. We are dealing with a group of murdering religious fanatics that can't be bargained with, reasoned with and want all of us dead. Understand, it is NOT just Israel, they feel the exact same way about us. They hate us because we do not believe as they do.

Woosker — September 13, 2012 at 5:46 p.m. ( | suggest removal


luvithere — September 13, 2012 at 3:05 p.m

Agree... It was planned and all they had to do was wait for the right time. The protests just happened to be the perfect tool for them to use.

ELISI — September 13, 2012 at 5:46 p.m. ( | suggest removal


"Let's say the innocent lives lost are estimated at five. Let's say the savings in lives, by taking the target, was estimated at 500."

5+5+5+5=a lot, eventually.

500 lives saved? When attempting to take out the people "intel" targets, their estimate of "savings in life"-based on their track record-is dubious at best. And because "intel" is derived and in rare cases presented to us from a government entity, we have to assume it's not spun and exaggerated to support their decision, a leap of faith I'm unable to make. It seems the friends and relatives of this human collateral damage are having a problem accepting this line of reasoning also.

And one should remember, in most of these countries, we are looked at as an occupying force. If the tables were turned, how would we react to an Afghan army, viewed as occupiers, killing Americans? I seriously doubt Americans would say "Yea, they took out my son and his family, but thatit probably saved, as the Afghans say, 84.88 lives."

mrd — September 13, 2012 at 5:47 p.m. ( | suggest removal


woosker- Who are "they"?

nailingit — September 13, 2012 at 6:03 p.m. ( | suggest removal


nailingit — September 13, 2012 at 6:14 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Hawk, I suppose I wasn't clear. The "murder" I was speaking of was at the consulate. Maybe.

mrd, see: Hiroshima and Nagasaki. How many innocents killed? How many infants baked into their mother's arms? How many died horrific deaths months, years after?

Was that murder, hawk?

Yet the world justifies ('cept for the Japanese, I'd guess) that action by proclaiming it ended the war. A war that would have cost many more lives.

How many people are currently starving to death on this planet? Do we have the ability to save them? If so, and we don't, is that murder?

Five people blown to bits when the target was one... does that matter?

What price? And a price for what? The scales are never plumb when it comes to killing people. Never will be.

Make no mistake.

Will we ever stop?

No, not as long as that parasite has it's way with us. The parasite called DNA; the genes. We are born to kill. So that -it- propogates.

(that post oughta blow some wigs, eh?)

Drift — September 13, 2012 at 6:24 p.m. ( | suggest removal


**Mitt Romney Media Criticism Continues: 'He Looks Like Richard Nixon,' 'The Character And The Policy Were Both Revealed'**

As Wednesday wore on, pundits continued reacting with astonishment at Romney's response. Speaking to Rachel Maddow, NBC's Andrea Mitchell said that "It was one of those moments where the character and the policy were both revealed." She speculated that Romney may have been looking to satisfy some of the conservative commentators who have been openly attacking his campaign strategy.

"I think they were looking for an opportunity," she said. "...This is a serious business. This is not the stuff of combative political press releases. I can't recall, Rachel, and I don't think you can, another time when the United States was under fire, literally, where a presidential candidate in either party put out a press release.

Peggy Noonan, who made waves with her criticism of Romney on Fox News, had an even more withering assessment for her own Wall Street Journal.

"Romney looked weak today," she said. "At one point, he had a certain slight grimace on his face when he was taking tough questions from the reporters, and I thought, 'He looks like Richard Nixon.'"

On Thursday morning, Joe Scarborough said he had been "absolutely flabbergasted" by Romney's response.

Even Bill O'Reilly called Romney out, though very briefly. Playing footage of Romney criticizing the Egyptian embassy for issuing a statement that was "akin to apology."

"I'm not sure the Governor is correct on that," O'Reilly said. "The embassy was trying to head off the violence. Being conciliatory in that kind of a situation seems logical."

Newspaper editorial boards across the country blasted Romney's response as well. The Washington Post called it "a discredit to his campaign" and the Los Angeles Times said it was an "outrageous exercise in opportunism." The Boston Globe labeled it "offensive on many other levels" beyond the timing of his remarks.

The fact-checking brigades also had their knives out for Romney. The Associated Press, for instance, said he had "seriously mischaracterized what had happened in a statement accusing President Barack Obama of "disgraceful" handling of violence there and at the U.S. Embassy in Cairo."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/09/13/mitt-romney-media-criticism-continues-egypt-libya_n_1880346.html

nailingit — September 13, 2012 at 7:04 p.m. ( | suggest removal


hawkeye — September 13, 2012 at 8:31 a.m.

I am not arguing that point. I agree completely. Guantanamo is the best place for us to house these detainees.

The point I was trying to make was the fact that the 2008 candidate Obama, and a freshly inaugurated President Obama, was hell bent on closing the facility. Then reality set in. He needs to house them somewhere, but nowhere in the states is feasible. He does, however, need to show some sort of effort toward his stated goal of closing it.

Maybe by not sending any more to Gitmo, and just killing them on the battlefield, will eventually lead to attrition. After all the ones we are already holding have to die off eventually, right?

danabwoodley — September 13, 2012 at 7:08 p.m. ( | suggest removal


***OH PLEASE Vote for this guy, I WANT to die before I'm 65***

WASHINGTON (AP) — Republican presidential nominee Mitt Romney mitigates his lack of formal foreign policy experience with advice from people who do — a small, ideologically varied group of longtime foreign policy hands and a handful of longtime, loyal staffers.

The former Massachusetts governor and businessman hears them out, and then typically has taken a hard line, seizing on incidents abroad to criticize President Barack Obama as a weak leader. Occasionally Romney sidesteps calls for caution from within this select group. That's what he did this week as he signed off on the decision to criticize Obama as a weak leader as unrest in Egypt was unfolding, and before it was known that a U.S. ambassador had died in Libya.

Although his campaign claims a long list of foreign policy advisers, Romney consults only about a half dozen people when an international crisis flares. The group includes two former secretaries of state, two former ambassadors, and one former and one current senator. Some in the group typically press for a more conservative — or neoconservative — approach; others are more moderate. Each has a loose portfolio, though they all contribute to the broader foreign affairs discussion.

Romney turned to members of this group — and particularly former Missouri Sen. Jim Talent, the candidate's go-to for Russia and defense — after Obama told Russia President Dmitri Medvedev to tell incoming Russian leader Vladimir Putin he would have more flexibility to deal with missile defense after the election. Russia, Romney said afterwards, is America's "No. 1 geopolitical foe." Putin referenced the comment just this week, saying it strengthened his resolve in opposing NATO plans for missile defense installations in Europe.

Romney pounced again when Chinese dissident Chen Guangcheng left the protection of the U.S. Embassy in Beijing. He criticized Obama as weak in his dealings with China and portrayed the president as unwilling to stand up for human rights.

And then as protesters scaled the walls of the U.S. Embassy in Cairo on Tuesday, Romney's campaign relied heavily on a close adviser — Rich Williamson, a former aide to Sen. John McCain — in drafting a late-night statement accusing Obama of "disgraceful" handling of the attacks. The next day, after drawing strong criticism from Republicans and Democrats alike, members of this group were on conference calls with Romney himself, discussing how to move forward. McCain advised Romney to give a major foreign affairs speech laying out his critique of Obama before the end of the week.

hawkeye — September 13, 2012 at 7:09 p.m. ( | suggest removal


**Mitt Romney Asked VP Candidates For 10 Years Of Tax Returns: Report**

"The requirement was consistent with the past practices of both Republican and Democratic campaigns," said Klaidman. "Indeed, in 2008, Mitt Romney turned over 23 years of taxes to John McCain’s campaign when he was under consideration to be the Arizona senator’s running mate."

Romney campaign spokeswoman Andrea Saul replied, "We do not discuss the VP selection process."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/09/13/mitt-romney-vp-tax-returns_n_1880830.html

nailingit — September 13, 2012 at 7:12 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Drift — September 13, 2012 at 6:24 p.m.

Hiroshima and Nagasaki. How many innocents killed? How many infants baked into their mother's arms? How many died horrific deaths months, years after?

Was that murder, hawk?

Actually, no it wasn't. Japan was warned prior to dropping both bombs that it was going to happen and to evacuate. So, no. I don't believe that was murder. That was war.

As for the consulate, yes I believe that was murder. The people in the building were non-combatants and had no warning or chance to escape ( I assume).

hawkeye — September 13, 2012 at 7:15 p.m. ( | suggest removal


hawkeye — September 13, 2012 at 1:09 p.m.

You make a very good point here. If a person has a beef and is going to cause trouble, it will happen. Film or no. YouTube clip or no.

There was most likely some people who were involved in the protest that were whipped up by the agitators because of the "film". But when things got violent, they were probably stopped, slack-jawed, and saying "WTF?!"

But I will say, though I haven't seen the film, not the burning clip, they were both generated in bad taste, and without any sensical reasoning. However....

I don't think they warranted an apology. We have the 1st Ammendment protections for free speech. Even when the message is unpopular, and disguting to some, or even most, of everyone else (KKK anyone). To publicly apologize for a citizen exercising that right hints to a desire to eliminate said right.

That's just how it appears to me.

danabwoodley — September 13, 2012 at 7:23 p.m. ( | suggest removal


hawkeye — September 13, 2012 at 7:09 p.m.

OK, I am going to ask this one question. I asked this same one in 2008 as well.

What does foreign policy experience matter?

I know that we cannot ignore the rest of the world, but aren't the most severe issues we face right here at home? $16 trillion in debt, unemployment staying over 8%, slow growth, deficit spending over $1 trillion.

Shouldn't we be more focused on domestic policy?

Just saying.

danabwoodley — September 13, 2012 at 7:35 p.m. ( | suggest removal


nailingit - By they, I'm referring to the religious fanatics in the middle east that hate Israel and America. This includes the President of Egypt, leaders in Iran, Syria and the terrorists all over the Middle East.

Woosker — September 13, 2012 at 7:35 p.m. ( | suggest removal


danabwoodley — September 13, 2012 at 7:35 p.m.

I think UNDERSTANDING foreign policy is more important than experience. On top of that having people by your side that can advise you wisely can be invaluable. Listening to those people and discussing the events = priceless.

It appears that Romney did NOT listen to his people and he jumped the gun with his response. If he does that as a candidate, what's to say he's going to get any smarter.

I don't think you can separate foreign affairs and domestic anymore. We have seen how the market in Europe effects the market here. It has been turning into a world economy and it just keeps happening. We need to safeguard our economy but be aware of everything around us.

Honestly, I don't know how one person can be President and be involved in everything that's happening and still get 3 hours of sleep at night.

hawkeye — September 13, 2012 at 7:55 p.m. ( | suggest removal


"Hiroshima and Nagasaki. How many innocents killed? How many infants baked into their mother's arms? How many died horrific deaths months, years after?"

perhaps you should ask the Japanese people.

By the time the US nuked Japan, militarily and economically, Japan was done. Their fighting machine was severally disabled, but what the hell. We could kill thousands of civilians, which we did, in a "strategic" war. The US did the same thing to Germany-check out the fire bombing of Dresden. We killed an estimated 350,000 women, children, and old men there. But there again, the ruling regime was defeated. Why did we have to kill (murder) so many? Was it because the US couldn't kill Hitler et all because they knew we would kill him and his ilk? Saddam and his ilk? Ghadaffi and his ilk? To the victor the spoils-KILL ON!

mrd — September 13, 2012 at 8:12 p.m. ( | suggest removal


To the victor the spoils-KILL ON!

mrd — September 13, 2012 at 8:12 p.m

Yup, that's why we spent millions of dollars rebuilding Japan, right?

hawkeye — September 13, 2012 at 8:20 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Hey all: This is incredible in it diabolical deception! Rush Limbaugh's newest conspiracy theory?

Al Qaeda handed over Bin Laden to Pres Obama so that Obama would look good. They sacrificed their leader so that our's would shine!

For more, read The Stranger's short blog post on it. The comment section is even better:

http://slog.thestranger.com/slog/archives/2012/09/13/rush-limbaugh-wants-you-to-hear-his-crazy-osamaobama-theory

AMAZING! There will be people who will eat this lie with gusto and regurgitate the slop for others to ingest......

manthou — September 13, 2012 at 8:59 p.m. ( | suggest removal


hawkeye — September 13, 2012 at 7:55 p.m.

While it is true we are moving to a global economy, we will not be competetive if we do not get a grip of our own economy.

I still believe that free trade agreements, beginning with NAFTA, were the main catalyst to our economic decline. Even with the boom of the '90s, driven by an until then ignored string in computer programming, the down turned was bound to happen.

With the costs of moving goods across our borders, this paves the way for private industry to find ways of cutting costs to improve the bottom line. Labor, unfortunately, was one such cost. And other places outside the US (Mexico is a good example), labor (wages) costs less. Why pay the wage demanded by an American worker, when the Mexican will work for pennies? And there won't be excessive import costs to sell your product in the US?

Apparently, the ones who drafted and approved this agreement didn't think it through. And now we are seeing consequences from it, and the powers that be want to include more such agreements.

Too much more of this, and US citizens will become the illegal aliens in other countries just trying to find some kind of work. Even if it is for pennies.

danabwoodley — September 13, 2012 at 9:02 p.m. ( | suggest removal


danabwoodley — September 13, 2012 at 9:02 p.m

Be sure to thank G. W. Bush for that next time you see him.

hawkeye — September 13, 2012 at 9:08 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Sorry, I missed a H. in there. G. H. W. Bush

hawkeye — September 13, 2012 at 9:09 p.m. ( | suggest removal


hawkeye — September 13, 2012 at 8:20 p.m.

And Germany.

And Iraq.

And Afghanistan.

While I will admit it was ill timed, and the information to justify the action was debatable, I will say that the action we took in Iraq to remove Saddam and his Ba'ath Party was a good thing.

This was a meglomaniacal dictator, constantly threatening those around him. He ordered actions that killed many people, including his own citizens. While life isn't perfect, I strongly feel that country is better off without that leader.

Though the organization does serve some purpose, and achieves positive results in some areas, in some ways, the United Nations are a joke. Again, Iraq as an example. For years Saddam took a threatening posture. The UN would condemn words or deeds. Pass resolutions requiring certain actions. Impose sanctions.

Saddam would continue to defy UN resolutions. How did the UN respond? More resolutions. More sanctions.

If you are going to require action from an entity, but aren't willing to use force to enforce it, why bother with the resolutions? What are you really accomplishing? Other than taking up real estate in NYC?

danabwoodley — September 13, 2012 at 9:17 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Woosker @ 7:35- In regards to *"them"*.

Thank God it wasn't Cyborgs!

DBW @ 9:02- *Apparently, the ones who drafted and approved this agreement didn't think it through.*

The problem is they did think it through, and they are getting filthy rich!

DBW @ 9:17 & 7:35- *What does foreign policy experience matter?* * I will say that the action we took in Iraq to remove Saddam and his Ba'ath Party was a good thing.*

Of course it was! Thousands of troops dead! Tens of thousands severely wounded! Well over one hundred thousand men women and children Iraqi citizenry slaughtered! Over 3 trillion spent sending our economy into hell! Future generations of Iraqi's hating our very being seeking revenge! American crdibility ruined for billions watching! Causing turmoil in the entire region! I can't wait to see who's next! China? Russia? Bolivia? Let's kill em' all and let our Christian God sort them out! :)))))

manthou @ 8:59- *Al Qaeda handed over Bin Laden to Pres Obama so that Obama would look good. They sacrificed their leader so that our's would shine!*

Now that we know Prez Obama is a Muslim, it all makes sense! :)))

nailingit — September 13, 2012 at 10:13 p.m. ( | suggest removal



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=webhCz...

Words of wisdom!

nailingit — September 13, 2012 at 10:58 p.m. ( | suggest removal


*This was a meglomaniacal dictator, constantly threatening those around him. He ordered actions that killed many people, including his own citizens. While life isn't perfect, I strongly feel that country is better off without that leader.*

Bush?

nailingit — September 13, 2012 at 11:08 p.m. ( | suggest removal


...and the ACLU says Obama is even worse than Bush. Any Liberal who would vote for someone who has trampled our rights more than Bush is a hypocrite.

frobert — September 13, 2012 at 11:19 p.m. ( | suggest removal


You really love to get personal with the name calling don't you frobert. :( Feel better?

**Steve Klein & 'Innocence Of Muslims': Film Promoter Remains Outspoken On Islam**

The role dovetailed with Klein's relentless pursuit of radical Muslims in America, an activity he says he began after the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks. It took on more meaning in 2007, when his son, then a 27-year-old Army staff sergeant, was seriously injured in Iraq. Matthew Klein, a medic, was awarded the Bronze Star for Valor and a Purple Heart for injuries he suffered in the attack by a suicide bomber, according to the Army Human Resources Command.

..

Klein founded Courageous Christians United, which conducts protests outside abortion clinics, Mormon temples and mosques, and started Concerned Citizens for the First Amendment, which preaches against Muslims and publishes volumes of anti-Muslim propaganda that Klein distributes. He also has helped train paramilitary militias at the church of Kaweah near Three Rivers, about an hour southeast of Fresno, to prepare for what they believe is a coming holy war with Muslim sleeper cells, according to the law center.

"It's extreme, ugly, violent rhetoric and the fact that he's involved in that weapons training at that church, when you combine things like weapons training with hatred of a people, that's very concerning to us. Those are the kind of things that lead to hate crimes," said Heidi Beirich, director of the center's Intelligence Project.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/09/13/steve-klein-innocence-of-muslims-producer_n_1882595.html

nailingit — September 13, 2012 at 11:28 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Anyone- Just to set the record straight with the accusation @ 11:19 about ACLU/Obama, (although if it were true it would certainly not be the end all:), it's much better to source the source rather than right wing blogs. Apparently it's as factual as Gary Johnson pulling more votes away from Obama than Romney.

**Obama Administration In Danger Of Establishing "New Normal" With Worst Bush-Era Policies, Says ACLU**

NEW YORK – The Obama administration has repudiated some of the Bush administration's most egregious national security policies but is in danger of institutionalizing others permanently into law, thereby creating a troubling "new normal," according to a new report released today by the American Civil Liberties Union.

"Establishing a New Normal: National Security, Civil Liberties, and Human Rights Under the Obama Administration," an 18-month review of the Obama administration's record on national security issues affecting civil liberties, concludes that the current administration's record on issues of national security and civil liberties is decidedly mixed: President Obama has made great strides in some areas, such as his auspicious first steps to categorically prohibit torture, outlaw the CIA's use of secret overseas detention sites and release the Bush administration's torture memos, but he has failed to eliminate some of the worst policies put in place by President Bush, such as military commissions and indefinite detention. He has also expanded the Bush administration's "targeted killing" program.

Read more @

http://www.aclu.org/national-security/obama-administration-danger-establishing-new-normal-worst-bush-era-policies-says-a

nailingit — September 13, 2012 at 11:40 p.m. ( | suggest removal


**Schumer Welcomes Paul Ryan Back as a Deficit-Reduction ‘Fraud’**

What a welcome back.

Senate Democrats haven’t exactly rolled out the red carpet for Rep. Paul Ryan now that the GOP vice presidential nominee is returning to his old stamping grounds to cast a vote at the U.S. Capitol today.

“It’s nice to see Paul Ryan back here in Congress,” Sen. Chuck Schumer, D-NY., said, oozing with sarcasm. “It will be even nicer to see him back here as a full-time member in January.”
Ryan returns to the House of Representatives today, for the first time since being chosen as Mitt Romney’s running mate, to cast his vote on a sequester replacement bill coming out of the budget committee today.

But Schumer took to the Senate floor first to disparage Ryan’s budget plan, declaring Ryan a “fraud” for the “unrealistic” and “rosy” assumptions on which his deficit plan is based, in his opinion.

“In terms of deficit reduction, the Ryan plan – there’s no other way to state it – is a fraud,” Schumer said. “Perhaps the least credible claim of all about congressman Ryan is the idea that he’s a serious deficit hawk and that his budget is a serious attempt at deficit reduction.

http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics/2012/09/schumer-welcomes-paul-ryan-back-as-a-deficit-reduction-fraud/

nailingit — September 13, 2012 at 11:56 p.m. ( | suggest removal


nailingit — September 13, 2012 at 10:13 p.m.

Your arguments against my opinion alludes to a belief that Hussein was a good leader to have in place in Iraq. Or is it that if the US hadn't led efforts to remove him then not a single Iraqi would have died? How many died from war or from execution ordered by the ruling elite while Ba'ath was in power?

I know a good number of Iraqi citizens who are pleased to have that government gone. I for one do not expect anyone to fall over themselves to express gratitude to us for any reason. But I think you assumption of *Future generations of Iraqi's hating our very being seeking revenge!* sounds more like wishful thinking just so you can point to it and say "I was right!"

danabwoodley — September 14, 2012 at 12:06 a.m. ( | suggest removal


*Your arguments against my opinion alludes to a belief that Hussein was a good leader to have in place in Iraq.*

Please point out anywhere I said that. A straw man argument. Saddam was our buddy a few decades ago. There are leaders all over the world who are tyrannical. Should we invade, conquer and occupy all of them also? Your justification for the Iraq war has no merit. You really think it was worth it?

*But I think you assumption of Future generations of Iraqi's hating our very being seeking revenge! sounds more like wishful thinking just so you can point to it and say "I was right*

Then you have missed any sense of purpose or motivation in my posts. How would Americans feel if the tables were turned? People are people. When deaths affecting generations of a society whose country was invaded and occupied under false pretenses, you really don't believe there will be repercussions?

Did you notice, at least in part, what the impetus was for the anti-Muslim film making that is causing/adding to current problems? See 11:28. *It took on more meaning in 2007, when his son, then a 27-year-old Army staff sergeant, was seriously injured in Iraq.*

War, even ones that are conducted for justifiable reasons have multi-faceted ramifications that affect societies in numerous ways for decades to come. Not to see this is more than short sighted in my opinion. If you believe the Iraq war was a "*good thing*" than nothing I or anyone else says will change your belief.

It is what it is.

nailingit — September 14, 2012 at 12:36 a.m. ( | suggest removal


Honestly, yes. If a government in tyrannical, and killing it's citizens en masse for whatever reason, then someone, perhaps the US, should go and put it to an end. As stated, Iraq was ill timed.

Your right. There are many ramifications to a variety of actions, and war isn't excluded. When the history is written, two things will define the result of the war: the outcome (victory?), and the conduct of the soldiers who fought.

danabwoodley — September 14, 2012 at 1:14 a.m. ( | suggest removal


"...No, not as long as that parasite has it's way with us. The parasite called DNA; the genes. We are born to kill. So that -it- propogates."

Drift — September 13, 2012 at 6:24 p.m.

Sorry to piecemeal your very well-written statement, Drift...but I had to bring up something which I find extremely important and that is the DNA structure. Bear in mind, I am no scientist...but I believe this article is easily understood.

Oh sir, you hit it on the nose with your comment...maybe more than you realize.

Sidetracking for just a bit, here...but it all ties in to an extent.

I'm not sure if anybody is aware how our DNA is forever changing, whether it be through physical/emotional changes, age or....the big one....

...dietary!

Yes, dietary. It's something to do with the epigenome. I'm not going to get all technical on you, so I'll just leave it at that. I have provided the link below for anybody interested in reading, but I wanted to highlight what I believe to be one of the most important quotes in the article as I believe a lot of the chemically-prepared additives we've never seen till recent years is altering all who aren't aware of what is being put in our food and is altering the DNA structure...possibly with a link to the increased violence. I also believe poor nutrition is affecting the DNA structure as well. Here's the excerpt from the link I've provided:

**Of Toxins and Supplements**

**Chemicals and additives that enter our bodies can also affect the epigenome. Bisphenol A (BPA) is a compound used to make polycarbonate plastic. It is in many consumer products including water bottles and tin cans. When controversial reports questioning the safety of BPA came out in 2008, some merchants ceased to carry products made with BPA.*

*courtesy of The University of Utah -
http://learn.genetics.utah.edu/content/epigenetics/nutrition/

Nothing beats *Superfoods* to fight the world's "dis-order."

goldenoldie — September 14, 2012 at 6:03 a.m. ( | suggest removal


nailingit — September 13, 2012 at 11:40 p.m.

Nice ploy to use a ACLU report from two years ago. That was before Obama claimed the right to extrajudicial assassination of citizens and indefinite detention of anybody. The more current reports tell a different story.

"No national security policy raises a graver threat to human rights
and the international rule of law than targeted killing, because
the government claims the unchecked authority to impose an
extrajudicial death sentence on people—including U.S. citizens—
located far from any battlefield."

http://www.aclu.org/files/assets/acalltocourage.pdf

frobert — September 14, 2012 at 6:08 a.m. ( | suggest removal


BTW, if anybody wants to know what they're putting in our food, the list is available through the FDA. Just go to their website and key in "Food Additives Listings." Some of the additives are natural and are safe. Others...ingredients such as arsenic, azodicarbonamide, BHA, BHT, EDTA, sodium acid pyrophosphate...not so good. Know what you're eating and control that intake for your own health, folks. You'd be surprised at how many cancers, diseases and health conditions are preventable.

There's a reason a certain soda drink makes great battery terminal cleaners. Do you *really* want that in your stomach??? When your GERD acts up, think about what I've said.

That little Urban Farmer idea you've been pondering will suddenly be more appealing to you.

goldenoldie — September 14, 2012 at 6:22 a.m. ( | suggest removal


goldie: what I appreciate most about you is your advocacy for healthy, local, sustainable foods. Just wanted you to know.
_____________________________________

I QUIT my Columbian print subscription today. Nothing particular about this paper's content, but print journalism, in general, is losing its ethical compass and I don't want to support it any longer. Editors and publishers are circling the wagons, protecting their own at the expense of the public good. I have proof. Just sayin'

_________________________

Crosby Stills and Nash from the front row on Wednesday: what a concert! I caught one of Steve Stills' guitar picks. These guys are in their seventies (Nash and Crosby) or fast approaching (Stills). What energy! They got a bit political this time and it felt like old times to see it again!

manthou — September 14, 2012 at 6:53 a.m. ( | suggest removal


Manthou, your comment is appreciated. If we don't hold grasp to our own personal well being and to be ever vigilant, BIG PHARMA certainly will...and BIG PHARMA isn't just in the world of prescriptions and OTC medications. That's what bothers me the most.

Sounds like you thoroughly enjoyed the concert. In their 70's??? Already??? Gee, how time flies. Just yesterday on the television, there was a commercial for the 40th Anniversary of the television show, MASH.

goldenoldie — September 14, 2012 at 8:35 a.m. ( | suggest removal


Is this the beginning???

(referring to what is happening globally)

goldenoldie — September 14, 2012 at 8:37 a.m. ( | suggest removal


frobert- No ploy involved. Your article is a year old and again, does not back your claim. Your accusatory tone and name calling isn't welcomed on this end and wreaks of trolling. You would do well to offer up something a bit more substantive.

If you think Obama is God awful terrible than so be it. Don't vote for him.

manthou- *I caught one of Steve Stills' guitar picks.* I'm jealous!

nailingit — September 14, 2012 at 8:44 a.m. ( | suggest removal


**China: Romney's rich because of us**

“If these mud-slinging tactics were to become U.S. government policies, a trade war would be very likely to break out between the world’s top two economies, which would be catastrophic enough to both sides and the already groaning global economy,” Xinhua’s Liu Chang writes. “For generations, China-bashing has been a cancer in U.S. electoral politics, seriously plaguing the relations between the two countries.”

The commentary also takes a shot at Romney’s wealth, declaring it “rather ironic that a considerable portion of this China-battering politician’s wealth was actually obtained by doing business with Chinese companies before he entered politics.”

Read more: http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0912/81205.html#ixzz26SZtg324

nailingit — September 14, 2012 at 8:54 a.m. ( | suggest removal



some interesting listening...

Peter Ditto - Morals, Facts, and Libertarians: New Developments in the Science of Ideology

http://www.pointofinquiry.org/peter_ditto_morals_facts_and_libertarians/

mr_basil_seal — September 14, 2012 at 9:25 a.m. ( | suggest removal


frobert — September 14, 2012 at 6:08 a.m

You may want to go to US GOV sites and check out "agenda 21"

ELISI — September 14, 2012 at 9:28 a.m. ( | suggest removal


#The Government Saves Us from Poverty Because That Is What Government Does
posted by PAUL CONSTANT on THU, SEP 13, 2012 at 11:50 AM

Eli and I have both written about yesterday's announcement that the number of Americans living in poverty remained the same last year, after three straight years of increases. Interesting numbers continue to come from this report, and I think this part is especially relevant to the presidential election:

*Federal lifeline programs have helped keep millions out of poverty, U.S. Census data shows.
Social Security payments lifted 21.4 million people — including 14.5 million senior citizens — over the poverty line in 2011, while unemployment benefits prevented 2.3 million Americans from falling into poverty.*

This stuff matters. If Paul Ryan had his way during the Bush Administration, Social Security would be invested in the stock market, and who knows if those 21 million Americans would have the same benefits they have now? Romney and Ryan both want to slash entitlement programs that save people from living in poverty. They don't understand that this is what government does. It's arguably the most important thing that government does; it saves people and gives them a second chance.

http://slog.thestranger.com/slog/archives/2012/09/13/the-government-saves-us-from-poverty-because-that-is-what-government-does

mr_basil_seal — September 14, 2012 at 9:30 a.m. ( | suggest removal


ELISI — September 14, 2012 at 9:28 a.m. (

Could you point to some exact language on one of the sites that helps explain what you are trying to say?

mr_basil_seal — September 14, 2012 at 9:33 a.m. ( | suggest removal


Reports are not surfacing that the President and the State Department were warned about the Embassy attacks 48 hours in advance and did not warn any Embassy's. These sick terrorist SOB's apparantly sodomized him prior to killing him. Our fabulous President then catches a plane to Vegas to campaign while our embassy's are burning all over the Middle East.

Woosker — September 14, 2012 at 9:44 a.m. ( | suggest removal


woosker- Reports are also surfacing the President had no prior knowledge. Sodomy?

Would you please give some sources for your information. Thanks.

nailingit — September 14, 2012 at 9:55 a.m. ( | suggest removal


**Glenn Beck Conspiracy Theory: U.N.'s Agenda 21 Will Result In "Centralized Control Over All Of Human Life"**

http://mediamatters.org/research/2011/06/17/beck-conspiracy-theory-uns-agenda-21-will-resul/180690

nailingit — September 14, 2012 at 9:59 a.m. ( | suggest removal


It is being published by the British news outlet, The Independent.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/politics/revealed-inside-story-of-us-envoys-assassination-8135797.html

Woosker — September 14, 2012 at 10:18 a.m. ( | suggest removal


Reports are ***not*** surfacing that the President and the State Department were warned

HUH?

hawkeye — September 14, 2012 at 10:20 a.m. ( | suggest removal


Woosker — September 14, 2012 at 10:18 a.m

The killings of the US ambassador to Libya and three of his staff ***were likely*** to have been the result of a serious and continuing security breach, The Independent can reveal.

Yes, hard hitting and solid information. Every statement has an "out" in it. Just more B.S.

hawkeye — September 14, 2012 at 10:35 a.m. ( | suggest removal


I can't imagine what foreign policy changes with regards to Israel has happened in the last 46 days to warrant this messaging the right wing puts out. We are as appreciated by Israel as much or more than any other administration in history. I suppose it's because Neo-Conservatives are upset Obama doesn't want to bomb Iran and start another conflict! Kind of like of like repeating Obama apologizes for the United States with zero data to back this claim.

I think this needs to be repeated.

**Ehud Barak sings praises of Obama administration**

(CNN) – Israel's Deputy Prime Minister and **Minister of Defense Ehud Barak said the Obama White House has been the most supportive administration throughout the two countries' diplomatic relations on matters of Israeli security**, in an interview to air Monday on "The Situation Room with Wolf Blitzer."

Barak -also a former prime minister of Israel - said that though historically administrations from both political parties have supported the Jewish state President **Obama's support, security-wise, is unparalleled.**

**"I think that from my point of view as defense minister they are extremely good, extremely deep and profound.** I can see long years, um, administrations of both sides of political aisle deeply supporting the state of Israeli and I believe that reflects a profound feeling among the American people," said Barak. **"But I should tell you honestly that this administration under President Obama is doing in regard to our security more than anything that I can remember in the past."**

http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2012/07/30/ehud-barak-sings-praises-of-obama-administration/

nailingit — September 14, 2012 at 11:14 a.m. ( | suggest removal


http://www.examiner.com/article/lebanese-report-us-ambassador-raped-before-murdered

Another source Nailingit regarding the rape of our Ambassador

Woosker — September 14, 2012 at 11:19 a.m. ( | suggest removal


When you only read what supports your opinion and just dismiss anything that does not, you very much limit your worldview...

Have a good days guys, I'm out.

Woosker — September 14, 2012 at 11:23 a.m. ( | suggest removal


***FINALLY!!!! Now I know I'm at the poverty level.***

BOSTON (AP) -- Mitt Romney is promising to reduce taxes on middle-income Americans.

But how does he define "middle-income"? The Republican presidential nominee defined it Friday as income of $200,000 to $250,000 a year and less.

The definition of "middle income" or the "middle class" is politically charged as Romney and President Barack Obama fight to win over working-class voters. Romney would be among the wealthiest presidents, if elected, and Democrats have repeatedly painted him as out of touch with average people.

hawkeye — September 14, 2012 at 11:28 a.m. ( | suggest removal


Paul Ryan speech to social conservatives this morning inspired my post @ 11:14. Ryan just makes stuff up and the right just sucks it up!

**Paul Ryan: Obama Treats Israel With 'Indifference Bordering On Contempt'**

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/09/14/paul-ryan-accuses-barack-_n_1884207.html

---

woosker @ 11:19- I would hope some deference is being paid to the families with this if true or false.

*woosker @ 11:23- When you only read what supports your opinion and just dismiss anything that does not, you very much limit your worldview...*

How true. Don't you think citing a publication such as the Examiner citing another publication from Lebanon is a bit of a stretch? It's better from the horses mouth such as my post @ 11:14 and relate it with a differing view with above "value voters summit" Ryan speech.

nailingit — September 14, 2012 at 11:33 a.m. ( | suggest removal


This guy Romney continues to be classless. It's clear he's approaching these debates on his heels with comments such as this. Laying this type of foundation in this arena...speaks volumes.
**Mitt Romney: Barack Obama may lie in debates**

Mitt Romney said in an interview that his campaign will “come into focus” with the debates and that he’s preparing for President Barack Obama to “say things that aren’t true” during the three upcoming face-offs next month.

Read more: http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0912/81212.html#ixzz26TGD8ncD

nailingit — September 14, 2012 at 11:45 a.m. ( | suggest removal


hey nailingit this article really helps to clarify somethings for those who can't see the forest for the trees when it comes to politics. http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/09/13/facts-arguments-and-politics/

soapbox4u — September 14, 2012 at 12:12 p.m. ( | suggest removal


A good read in pondering the future of foreign policy:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/sep/14/mitt-romney-foreign-policy

soapbox4u — September 14, 2012 at 12:18 p.m. ( | suggest removal


*Emphasis*Respondents also estimated that it takes a household income of $70,000 a year for a family of four to live a middle-class life. (Pew estimates that the median income for a four-person household is just under that figure.)

It appears Romney has a very different view of what's middle class than most typical Americans.

I guess there's a helluva lot more poor folks is Romney's world, you know, the ones he said don't need any help, or something like that, a while back.

mrd — September 14, 2012 at 1 p.m. ( | suggest removal


hawkeye — September 14, 2012 at 11:28 a.m.

So a married couple of two firefighters or police officers are not middle income? Or are you now agreeing that those civil servants are paid excessively?

frobert — September 14, 2012 at 1:47 p.m. ( | suggest removal


frobert — September 14, 2012 at 1:47 p.m

Nope, I'm saying I don't get enough! I need a part time job, you got one?

hawkeye — September 14, 2012 at 2:44 p.m. ( | suggest removal


So my question of the day is this...

What purpose does anybody have, whatsoever...in destroying property to any political headquarters (such as the GOP headquarters in Hazel Dell), whether it be R, D, L, I or any other political party??? What does this solve?

Ignorance and stupidity continues to prevail lately.

..

My, my, my...the media frenzy is in full gear for sure!!! Not only is the Middle East ablaze with anger and frustration...terrorist-like attacks on embassies not only to the US but Germany as well; now Universities are being put in lock down because of bomb scares; the Royal Family is angry as heck with the paparazzi as they should be with invasion of privacy; and Mr. Bernanke pulled a rabbit out of a magical hat, trying to save the economy but might just have pulled the trigger to inflation like we've never seen!!!

Nice example of chaos and mayhem overloading everybody's brains lately, you might say...

What's next???

goldenoldie — September 14, 2012 at 3:09 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Soapbox4u @12:12- Good read. It underscores how important it is to form opinion with facts, and doing so objectively and fairly, while understanding the whole of each situation. Not always the easiest thing to do when looking through a partisan lens. There are many things I don't agree with the current administration on and state so from time to time. I'm far from perfect, but I'm always taken back by most of those who post here that lean right. It's almost a sin for them or others to criticize their party or leadership.

Politically speaking I don't think there is a subject more nuanced than foreign policy which brings it to the article @ 12:18. Great read and for the sake of brevity I'll be brief. Romney is an idiot on foreign relations. His ineptness has been placed center stage and his foolishness is on display. He is now defining himself as a neo-conservative. At least now we know what we're dealing with. Dubya 2.0

nailingit — September 14, 2012 at 3:14 p.m. ( | suggest removal


jimmie carter's america on steroids

DeeLittle — September 14, 2012 at 4:18 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Goldie,
not sure what's next. But this unrest in Arab countries is worrying me. Just read somewhere that the film depicts the prophet as a womanizer, child molester, and killer. Honestly?????? As non-religious as I am, that's just insane. And it would piss me off if the film did same to Jesus. Somewhere along the way one needs to show respect.

If the film maker wanted to cause violence, he sure managed to do so willingly. That's no longer protected free speech, that's lunacy in my opinion.
Naturally, it is also lunacy what happened afterward. So what are we supposed to do? Go to war with each country? Think not.

Anybody ever read the neocons' manifesto, A New American Century? Frightening. Used to be available freely but I think in last few years they were pulling it. Pretty much a blue print to take over world. And no, not saying this was instigated by them. Just my usual rambling.

luvithere — September 14, 2012 at 5:08 p.m. ( | suggest removal


luvithere @ 5:08 PM: I was listening to Thom Hartmann today on my way to the coast and he was talking about "A New American Century." Amazingly chilling stuff.

It is something out of a fictional movie script, but it's not. That is what is so scary.

I keep harping about how digital media is changing the news and this easily-accessible movie has sparked violence.

It is bad enough when traditionally-trained journalists start ignoring professional ethics to grab an audience, but citizen journalists and videographers answer to no one.

We all need to be skeptical and limit our exposure to this trash. I swear it will eat our brains over time.

manthou — September 14, 2012 at 5:21 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Glad I am not only one frightened of that new century, Manthou. Hope you enjoy the coast. Thinking of driving out for the day on Sunday myself.

luvithere — September 14, 2012 at 6:01 p.m. ( | suggest removal


**'Innocence Of Muslims' Shot On Hollywood Set, Film Permit Connected To Christian Charity (UPDATED)**

The permit for "The Innocence of Muslims," which was filmed in Los Angeles County in August 2011 under the title "Desert Warriors," has been pulled from public view by the Los Angeles County Sheriff's Department over safety concerns, TheWrap reported.

Media for Christ, a Duarte, Calif.-based Christian nonprofit group, applied for the film permit, the San Gabriel Valley Tribune reported. The charity's misson statement is to "glow Jesus' light" to the world.

Though Joseph Nassralla, the president of Media for Christ, emerged as a force behind the anti-Muslim film, the organization said it had nothing to do with the project and was upset by its content, according to the L.A. Times. Nassralla has reportedly devoted himself to criticizing Islam in speeches and interviews during recent years.

Read more @

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/09/14/innocence-of-muslims-film-filmmaker-sam-bacile-permit-christian-charity_n_1883792.html

nailingit — September 14, 2012 at 6:45 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Judge strikes down Wisconsin law restricting union rights

AP file

The law championed by Wisconsin Gov. Scott Walker prohibited state and local governments from bargaining over anything except cost of living adjustments to salaries.
By NBC News staff and news services

A Wisconsin judge on Friday struck down the state law championed by Gov. Scott Walker that effectively ended collective bargaining rights for most public workers.

Dane County Circuit Judge Juan Colas ruled Friday that the law violates the state and U.S. constitutions and is null and void.

The law took away nearly all collective bargaining rights from most workers and has been in effect for more than a year.

Colas' ruling comes after a lawsuit brought by the Madison teachers union and a union for Milwaukee city employees.

For city, county and school workers, the ruling returns the law to its previous status, before it was changed in March 2011, the Milwaukee Journal-Sentinel reported. However, Walker's law remains largely in force for state workers, it reported.

Walker's law prohibited state and local governments from bargaining over anything except cost of living adjustments to salaries. Haggling over issues such as health benefits, pensions and workplace safety was barred.

Gov. Walker said in a statement Friday that he expected the ruling will be overturned on appeal.

"The people of Wisconsin clearly spoke on June 5th," he said in the statement posted on his Facebook page. "Now, they are ready to move on. Sadly a liberal activist judge in Dane County wants to go backwards and take away the lawmaking responsibilities of the legislature and the governor. We are confident that the state will ultimately prevail in the appeals process."

"We believe the law is constitutional," said Wisconsin Department of Justice spokeswoman Dana Brueck.

The proposal was introduced shortly after Walker took office in February last year. It sparked a firestorm of opposition and huge protests at the state Capitol that lasted for weeks. All 14 Democratic state senators fled to Illinois for three weeks in an ultimately failed attempt to stop the law's passage by the Republican-controlled Legislature.

The law's passage led to a mass movement to recall Walker from office, but he survived the recall election, becoming the first governor in U.S. history to do so.

hawkeye — September 14, 2012 at 8:07 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Of things Presidential, respectful, and unfortunately reprehensible.

**Paul Ryan shares billing with 'former terrorist' at fringe conference**

http://video.msnbc.msn.com/the-rachel-maddow-show/49041111/#49041111

nailingit — September 14, 2012 at 11:22 p.m. ( | suggest removal


manthou — September 14, 2012 at 5:21 p.m.

I'm so glad you shared your statement with everyone. This is exactly what I've been noticing as well. All of us have different takes on what is happening, but whatever IS happening is truly unnerving. It's the not knowing which makes everyone uneasy and it doesn't help with the "spin" we're reading and hearing on all the news channels and "news(???)" websites which appears to be coming from all directions. It's no wonder some of the debates here on the forum become so heated. Finding the facts nowadays is becoming quite a challenge.

Nailingit said something on September 14, 2012 at 3:14 p.m. while in discussion with soapbox4u regarding the link soapie had presented. I can't speak for nailingit, but I just had to say...brilliant write. Definitely something we all can learn from. (Good one, nailingit!)

goldenoldie — September 15, 2012 at 6:21 a.m. ( | suggest removal


luvithere — September 14, 2012 at 6:01 p.m.

You're not alone in your thoughts, my dear. I'm right there with ya!

An *opinion* I wanted to share regarding the movie industry (and nobody has to agree, either)... When it comes to writing these fictitious movies AND books for that matter, it takes a vivid imagination usually based upon certain criteria. It could be a personal experience, something someone read or heard in the news or by an acquaintance OR a combination of creative thoughts and perceptions sparked by a dream which is usually generated by what someone has heard or seen. For that matter, it could be just about anything and to win viewership or readership, it has to be written with a creative touch to grab the attention of the audience. I never condone any movie written with prejudice about any faith. That is absolutely wrong. I haven't seen this movie (and I don't care to see it) so I cannot say whether or not the outcome of the movie justifies the outrage in the Middle East. It appears to have been done in bad taste from what I'm hearing but then again...can I really trust what I'm hearing without actually seeing it for myself???

I find it ironic that a fictitious movie has sparked such violence yet with the reality of such "documented" issues in just about all other faiths...and movies shared with such content...it makes you wonder if this was just an excuse to spark such unrest. They're acting like it's their religion alone which has even looked upon with such subject matters as you have stated when in all actuality, it is not. This is why I find these actions in the Middle East suspicious...not by those protesting but by those reporting.

After watching the movie *The Manchurian Candidate* yesterday, it makes me wonder if the words spoken for us to hear are actually what is being said...or is it something else??? A conspiracy theory in the making??? Hardly...just a lot of suspicion on my part. Till questions are answered truthfully...it's just speculation on my part.

...and about that drive to the coast...
Nice Weather!!! The peak of summer at the coast for sure!!! A great place to escape the rat race for sure!!!

goldenoldie — September 15, 2012 at 6:39 a.m. ( | suggest removal


nailingit — September 14, 2012 at 6:45 p.m.

Yeahhhhh, nailingit...we've got to keep on our toes about those who appear to be false prophets. They're everywhere. When people who call themselves "Christians" are out to make a buck by supporting film producers who apparently write their scripts in such a prejudicial way, they definitely do not understand the principals of Christian faith and put themselves in the public eye as false prophets. That also applies to those who have done heinous acts behind the scenes to members of their flock as well.

You know for the longest time, your posts about wrongdoings in various religious groups truly unnerved me as you well know...but now I see it in a different light that you are actually pointing out those who claim to be faithful followers of the Christian faith...may not be what they seem to be. I guess in a way...you are bringing light to the False Prophets...the wolves in sheep's clothing.

We are taught not to judge others...not an easy task in today's world but it's something *we all* need to work on. Opening our eyes and ears to the message shared by the messenger is always a good start.

Like you said in part your post to soapbox4u yesterday...

*"""...how important it is to form opinion with facts, and doing so objectively and fairly, while understanding the whole of each situation. Not always the easiest thing to do when looking through a partisan lens."""*

I believe this isn't just a partisan lens we're looking through.

goldenoldie — September 15, 2012 at 6:59 a.m. ( | suggest removal


goldie: Well-stated this morning!

Many wise mind/body health experts all agree on one thing: Turn off the news! Don't read the newspapers! You will be much more healthy if you do.

Problem is: that stuff is definitely addicting and the polarization it supports (US vs THEM) mentality is not good for humanity. Hard to turn it off, but I am trying. :)

They tell us to focus on what we CAN control: our attitudes; our values; our ability to give and receive love; our reactions.

Who are the CLIENTS of newspapers and networks? The advertisers, not the public.

manthou — September 15, 2012 at 8:56 a.m. ( | suggest removal


Thanks, manthou. Maybe it's an awakening of sorts. Guess my glasses were fogged up for awhile there, lol. Just think of what we all could accomplish if more would just step back for a bit...take a deep breath...clean those glasses and take off those blinders and earplugs and see everything for what it truly is!!!

You say "Who are the CLIENTS of newspapers and networks? The advertisers, not the public." Might I add that it's who the advertisers are working for as well??? Every time we click onto their websites...voice a comment...check an article or another person's comment...

goldenoldie — September 15, 2012 at 9:08 a.m. ( | suggest removal


My kind of poll:

Who would win in a fistfight? Romney or Obama?

Smile

http://www.motherjones.com/mojo/2012/09/poll-barack-obama-would-beat-mitt-romney-fistfight

manthou — September 15, 2012 at 9:30 a.m. ( | suggest removal


Luvithere, Manthou,

Your brief conversation on A New American Century yesterday evening caught my attention, so I did a google search. Wow!!! This Project For A New American Century (PNAC) explains a lot, and (almost) causes the Norquist pledge to pale in comparison.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_...

Among other things, it goes a long way toward explaining something that never made sense - Why did Pres Bush sidetrack from tracking down bin Laden/al Qaeda, and instead invade Iraq? Read the couple of sections on Iraq, and then scroll to the bottom and compare PNAC associates to the Bush Administration.

The discussion on "A New Pearl Harbor" also adds fuel to the claims that the Bush Administration (at the top level, anyhow) just might have known the 9/11 attack was coming. This source notes that while no proof exists for this claim, they were almost definitely using the event to further PNAC's desired plans.

roger — September 15, 2012 at 9:39 a.m. ( | suggest removal


**Don’t Say “Desperate”**

The peril to Romney’s candidacy of being seen through the lens of desperation can’t be overstated. The paramount strategic objective of any campaign is to maintain control of the candidate’s public image—and if the media filter begins to view his every move through a dark or unflattering prism, things can quickly spin out of control, to a point where nothing he says or does is taken at face value. “Romney is in a very bad place,” says another senior Republican strategist. “He’s got the Republican intelligentsia second-guessing him, publicly and privately. The party base has never trusted him and thinks that everything bad it ever thought about him is being borne out now. And he’s got the media believing that he can’t win. He’s right on the edge of a self-­fulfilling downward spiral.”

Whether Romney can resist that spiral in the two weeks between now and the first presidential debate is an open question—but there’s no doubt that the pressure on him to win that debate decisively is now almost overwhelming. “If he doesn’t, you’ll see the whole thing start to unravel pretty quickly, à la Dole in 1996,” says a third GOP strategist, arguing that Romney’s fund-­raising will dry up and the expected flood of money from conservative super-pacs will be reduced to a trickle.

Read more @

http://nymag.com/news/politics/powergrid/mitt-romney-middle-east-unrest-2012-9/

nailingit — September 15, 2012 at 9:46 a.m. ( | suggest removal


**Bill Maher: Mitt Romney ‘lost’ election this week**

'I’m not saying that because that’s what I wish, although I do wish it,' Maher says.

Bill Maher said Friday that Mitt Romney’s chances of winning are “toast” and that the GOP presidential nominee’s response to the attacks against U.S. sites overseas “lost the election.”

“I think this is the week Mitt Romney lost the election,” the comedian said on HBO’s “Real Time with Bill Maher.” “I do think he kind of made himself toast, I’m not saying that because that’s what I wish, although I do wish it.”

He said that Romney’s attack on President Barack Obama over a statement made by the U.S. Embassy in Cairo reminded him of former GOP presidential nominee Sen. John McCain suspending his campaign because of the 2008 financial crisis, which he said made Obama look “cooler and smarter.”

“It kind of reminds me of exactly almost four years ago when John McCain kind of lost the election when he looked unready when there was a financial crisis and he said we‘ve got to suspend our campaign, and Obama just looked cool and smart,” Maher said. “And again this week, Obama just looks cooler and smarter — because he is.”

Read more: http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0912/81252.html#ixzz26YeDQiZv

nailingit — September 15, 2012 at 9:50 a.m. ( | suggest removal


Hey Roger, thanks for the link. Can't read it right now but do remember the original document in all its scary glory. Yes, it tends to explain a bit why our Bush politics were what they were. The ultimate goal in mind....
Glad it is not just me, very glad others read it also and feel threatened by it. It's definitely not a document put out by others to defame the neocons, this is their won manifesto.

My birthday today so I will follow Manthou's suggestion and turn off the news for today. Gotta have one day without stress. naturally, the forum stays...

luvithere — September 15, 2012 at 9:52 a.m. ( | suggest removal


And to remind everyone, Bill Kristol (one of the two founders of PNAC) was personally responsible for finding and putting Sarah Palin on the Republican ticket in 08'. He's also a regular on Fox News Sunday.

Romney is embracing this neo-conservative view of geopolitics. It's what lies deep in the underbelly of today's GOP.

nailingit — September 15, 2012 at 10:04 a.m. ( | suggest removal


Poor old Pres Obama just can't catch a break - seems like everyone is burning him in effigy. The fringe neoCons claim he's a Moslem and is appeasing radical elements of Islam, while those radical Muslims claim he's an American oppressor intent on world domination (or something like that).

(Pssst - They're all wrong - he's actually an agent of an advanced alien race. The birthers have the right issue for the wrong reason - he was placed here as a child to pave the way for their upcoming Dec 2012 invasion and conquest of the planet.)

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/06/08/obama-effigy-hanged-outside-church_n_1581272.html

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/45413573/ns/world_news-europe/t/obama-effigy-burned-right-wing-students-uk/#.UFSyUTPWpck

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2067041/Angry-Pakistanis-burn-effigies-Obama-Afghan-border-closed.html

http://proof-proofpositive.blogspot.com/2012/03/obama-burned-in-effigy-again-constantly.html

http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5jOIHa3dQUGnVoGWQWcMLRjHONNVg?docId=CNG.87e3e725f22eab0a90bdd76811f62cc0.ae1

roger — September 15, 2012 at 10:04 a.m. ( | suggest removal


roger- *he's actually an agent of an advanced alien race.*

They are called "earthers". :))

And apparently he's also gay!

There is an all out assault on our President's character and motivations. I hope Americans respond in kind and refute these attempts in November.

**Jerome Corsi, Tea Party Activist, Reports Obama Is Gay And Familiar With Chicago's Bathhouse Scene**

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/09/12/obama-gay-rumors-chicago-jerome-corsi-_n_1877990.html

nailingit — September 15, 2012 at 10:12 a.m. ( | suggest removal


roger at 9:39 am: Yep. This should be mandatory reading for anyone wanting to gain historical insight into the Bush Administration machine. Glad you posted the link to share.

As for how much this administration ignored pre 9/11 warnings, the NYT printed this recently:

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/11/opinion/the-bush-white-house-was-deaf-to-9-11-warnings.html?_r=2&ref;=opinion

luvithere: Have a very happy birthday!

manthou — September 15, 2012 at 10:12 a.m. ( | suggest removal


roger: Obama-as-alien:

I have heard that theory, too, and wonder where it will all end. There are people who actually do believe this!

I read a long time ago a similar theory attached to the Founding Fathers. They were alien "walk-ons" who assumed human shape to assist our new nation to a higher plane.

I love this stuff!

manthou — September 15, 2012 at 10:17 a.m. ( | suggest removal


Happy B'Day, Luvithere!!!

roger — September 15, 2012 at 10:27 a.m. ( | suggest removal



nail: :))))

manthou — September 15, 2012 at 10:31 a.m. ( | suggest removal


Happy Birthday luvit! I'd get you something but....you know how it is. Here is something anyway! :))

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zpwWp-...

nailingit — September 15, 2012 at 10:36 a.m. ( | suggest removal


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k1FBa6...

If you can stand Hannity's blather check this out. McCain disagrees with Fox news messaging and Hannity cuts him off somewhat at the end. Interesting how Fox is pushing this Jimmy Carter/Obama messaging with no basis in reality.

Fox News. When will people get a clue?

nailingit — September 15, 2012 at 11:23 a.m. ( | suggest removal


Thanks all. Nice birthday wishes for my 29th....

I love the "Obama is an alien" - classic. How low can they sink??? Our resident county birthers probably buy into that one next. Honestly, desperation really does breed some strange theories. And where in the world did you stumble on that trailer, Nail?

With the recent transformation of Mitty into ultra conservative war monger, I figure Carl Rove, the architect behind this manifesto, gave him a lil talk behind the woodshed to clue him in what his role is supposed to be.

luvithere — September 15, 2012 at 11:40 a.m. ( | suggest removal


luvithere — September 15, 2012 at 11:40 a.m.

Ultra conservative?

NeoCon war mongers are anything but conservative. If they believe in expanding the roll of government, they are NOT conservative.

frobert — September 15, 2012 at 12:51 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Ahhh nothing better for a lazy laid backed Saturday afternoon than to listen to some B.B King and Eric Clapton..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y5wgWx...

ELISI — September 15, 2012 at 1:04 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Fro, they might not be conservatives in your book but they are the Republicans, so they define themselves as conservatives.

Elisi gets first place for best idea of the day!

luvithere — September 15, 2012 at 1:29 p.m. ( | suggest removal


luvithere — September 15, 2012 at 1:29 p.m.

look up the origin of the term "neoconservative"

frobert — September 15, 2012 at 1:37 p.m. ( | suggest removal


I did, Fro. Don't care what started it, but care where it ended up. And it ended up with Rove.

luvithere — September 15, 2012 at 1:41 p.m. ( | suggest removal


luvithere — September 15, 2012 at 1:41 p.m.

"And it ended up with Rove."

...and Obama.

frobert — September 15, 2012 at 1:47 p.m. ( | suggest removal


frobert, there is much more to life than arguing political mumbo jumbo daily, sign off and take a walk, play some soothing music, go for a drive, take in a movie..you will feel better!

Enjoy the day!!

ELISI — September 15, 2012 at 1:58 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Elisi, just wanted to say the same.

Fro, not arguing, birthday and all.

luvithere — September 15, 2012 at 1:59 p.m. ( | suggest removal


luvit- *How low can they sink???*

We'll find out in the next 51 days!

*With the recent transformation of Mitty into ultra conservative war monger,*

I heard a politico the other day shed some light on this. In most elections the party representing their candidate will rally behind him and let that shape the party's persona leading up to the election.

In this case, with Romney not having a center or consistent resolve on issues, the republicans are shaping him into what the party wants and what we are witnessing today.

---

The sad thing is, arguably Romney was the best Republicans could offer. Every other candidate (with the exception of Huntsman imo) ran off the rails in different directions making them unelectable. Romney is a culmination of different Republican candidates.

Making him a...Frankenstein of sorts.

Romneystein? Mittenstein? Frankenmitt?

nailingit — September 15, 2012 at 3:28 p.m. ( | suggest removal


And not trying to take a personal shot a Romney, (:)) but he does remind me of Herman Munster.

nailingit — September 15, 2012 at 3:30 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Huntsman. Reasonable, intellectual, diplomatic (naturally), experienced. Good grief, the world would have ended if they gave him a shot. I was very impressed by him.

I like Frankenmitt as my personal.

luvithere — September 15, 2012 at 4:02 p.m. ( | suggest removal


luvithere — September 15, 2012 at 4:02 p.m.

Huntsman was better than the neocon contingent but the conservatives, Paul and Johnson were the best choices for civil liberties and the economy.

frobert — September 15, 2012 at 4:20 p.m. ( | suggest removal


***HAPPY BIRTHDAY LUV, GOOD FOR YOU!!!***

Nail, too bad, so sad about Mr. Hannity, but funny none the less.

hawkeye — September 15, 2012 at 4:20 p.m. ( | suggest removal


goldenoldie @ 6:59- *you are actually pointing out those who claim to be faithful followers of the Christian faith...may not be what they seem to be.*

I appreciate you acknowledging that. I think by and large teachings of Jesus Christ are right on. I have great respect for the very few who understand their meaning and try to live by them.

Having said that, many religions have meaningful teachings to draw from, providing great direction for humankind to co-exist. Politics and religion should never be mixed. I believe Jesus alluded to this and our founding fathers conveyed it.

It's astounding how many republicans believe Prez Obama is a Muslim or not sure. More than half of all and much higher in the southern states.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162-57480905-503544/conservatives-more-likely-to-think-obama-is-muslim-now-than-in-2008/

http://articles.latimes.com/2012/mar/12/news/la-pn-poll-obamas-a-muslim-to-many-
gop-voters-in-alabama-mississippi-20120312

I wouldn't be surprised if a few that post here and on the FB side believed it. Just nonsense with no merit or basis.

My personal feeling is I'd rather have a moderate Muslim in the White House than a radical Christian, and vice versa . People that buy into this pervasive hate that most Muslims are radical extremists who hate America are acting out precisely the way Bin Laden wanted them to. Just like Middle Easterners that buy into most Americans are radicals hating Muslims.

The problem is the disparity gap of tolerance/acceptance seems to be closing more and more with each passing day.

I guess a true Agnostic would be best to lead us.

nailingit — September 15, 2012 at 4:31 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Than we got Paul Ryan looking like Herman's kid Eddie. These two are quite the pair! Combine that with they're ..horrific policy ideas, and the prospect of them sitting in the White House is more than scary!

nailingit — September 15, 2012 at 4:51 p.m. ( | suggest removal



hawk @ 4:20- I can't stomach Hannity and never watch except in cases like this. Notice how he referred to himself in the 3rd party sense. Priceless! You would think he'd give a little more respect to McCain, given McCain's military past, a sitting U.S. Senator and last elections GOP Presidential candidate. Hannity embodies everything wrong as to our current state of unyielding political partisanship.

nailingit — September 15, 2012 at 5:03 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Nailingit @4:31 pm -

In my opinion...regarding our current President and the question of his faith...

To me there is no question in my mind that he is a man who is strong in his beliefs. He has been hired by the people to do a job not many would ever want to do. Whether he be Christian or Muslim is like asking *"do you want yellow or red potatoes in your potato salad"* as far as I'm concerned...as long as he truly believes in what it is he follows and it doesn't interfere with the daily routine as president.

If anybody wants to take a look back in history, I'd bet they'd find more than one president who has been a member of more than one religious group prior to becoming president.

My question is this to anybody who dwells in the issues of the faith of a president. Does whatever type of religious following by the president make him different from any other president as long as he is doing the job he was hired to do? In my thoughts...I'd be much more concerned about those in office who have switched partisanship time and time again rather than worrying about if they were originally in a household of Muslim faith or Christian faith or any other denomination for that matter.

goldenoldie — September 15, 2012 at 5:04 p.m. ( | suggest removal


goldenoldie- Mark this day. We are in complete agreement! At least I think!

nailingit — September 15, 2012 at 5:07 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Nailingit...I'd also be much more concerned with those who are tied into a shady past as well.

goldenoldie — September 15, 2012 at 5:10 p.m. ( | suggest removal


I think so too, Nailingit. BTW...is that the boy from the Munsters or Paul Ryan in your avatar???

goldenoldie — September 15, 2012 at 5:12 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Luvithere...

Here's wishing you a fantastic birthday today!

goldenoldie — September 15, 2012 at 5:13 p.m. ( | suggest removal


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FLeEluVVCLA&feature;=related

goldenoldie @ 5:12...I'm not sure! ;)

nailingit — September 15, 2012 at 5:18 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Also nailingit...something you have to understand with me when asking questions or making counter arguments in a discussion, it's my inquisitive nature to understand a perspective from all angles. You'd be surprised at how many times I've actually agreed with your comments but have had to ask questions to confirm the conclusions I form. Sometimes I'm right, other times...I've missed the mark in my assumptions which we all know what those assumptions can make a person look like if ya know what I mean. Guess that means I'm human, huh. I ask the questions or make the statements to get people to talk. Sometimes, all I get is anger, frustration and insults. Not saying that I haven't done my share in the past as well...

...But my intentions are good. I have learned soooo much from the folks on the forum, probably more than I ever would from any article on any news rag (except for when it comes to Eric Florip's writes lately...*Dang*, he's good at what he does!!!) and for that I am grateful to the whole bloomin' bunch who carries on in a day to day discussion. For those I have offended, it was not my intention to do such and mean no hard feelings.

Okay, so I poured my heart out to you and everyone else in Columbianland...all I hope for is that everyone exercises a little patience and that everyone takes that little step back and listen to each other sometimes and to enjoy what's left of our wonderful summer weather as it leans into autumn.

goldenoldie — September 15, 2012 at 5:25 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Let me clarify one point...that's "something you have to understand with me when *I'M* asking questions or making counter arguments."

goldenoldie — September 15, 2012 at 5:29 p.m. ( | suggest removal


well, I am glad to see we are all in much friendlier mood with each other again. I am now off to eat my birthday dinner. It will be Indian buffet. There's 10 pounds right there! But I will thoroughly enjoy it.

All, enjoy the balmy night. Heard it was like 106 degrees at this time in the burbs of LA last evening. Yuk!

luvithere — September 15, 2012 at 6:18 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Bill Clinton gave a speech in Tacoma today at a Jay Inslee fundraiser?

I have been asleep at the wheel. The Stranger blog describes it well:

http://slog.thestranger.com/slog/archives/2012/09/15/even-wearing-a-truly-ugly-suit-bill-clinton-inspires-jay-inslee-to-deliver-maybe-the-best-speech-of-his-life

manthou — September 15, 2012 at 7:06 p.m. ( | suggest removal


OK, this is just wrong!!!

WASHINGTON (AP) — Coalition military authorities in Afghanistan say the insurgents who attacked a British airfield in southwestern Afghanistan on Friday, killing two U.S. Marines, wore U.S. Army uniforms and destroyed six Harrier fighter jets.

They said in a statement Saturday that about 15 insurgents carried out the attack, describing the attack as well coordinated by insurgents who were "well equipped, trained and rehearsed." Fourteen of the 15 were killed. One was captured.

They said attackers penetrated the base's perimeter and were armed with automatic rifles, rocket-propelled grenade launchers and suicide vests. Besides destroying six planes, they destroyed three refueling stations on the base and damaged six aircraft hangars.

Coalition authorities have not yet identified the two Marines killed. Eight military members and one civilian contractor were also injured in the assault.

hawkeye — September 15, 2012 at 8:09 p.m. ( | suggest removal


**LUV**

happy birthday !!!!

and..are you from the 'burbs in LA? if so, where? that's my hometown.

DeeLittle — September 16, 2012 at 1:43 a.m. ( | suggest removal


**GOLDIE**

it's a sad commentary on the times in which we live: right after i read a headline or a blurb for a story, i immediately look to see what source it came from.

we can't trust *anybody* now. that's not (my trademark) paranoia, it's a simple statement of fact. at least God gave us the internet, and the ability to track claims back to the event itself, or *lack* of one. takes a whole lotta time, but with this old body's structural system cracking, i seem to have the time.

***OH!***

i changed browers to chrome, and i found this *WONDERFUL* site...if you're interested in the human body. https://www.biodigitalhuman.com/home/

**WARNING** when i was in nursing school (when i still had working knees) i was in a&p; (anatomy & physiology). i was so facinated by every single thing about the class, i wanted to share my what i was discovering with my kids. so...um...i uh....brought home my dissection cat.

i refuse to be responsible for another....well, visit at your own risk.

DeeLittle — September 16, 2012 at 1:57 a.m. ( | suggest removal


Hey Birthday Girl...I hope your dinner was great...and I also hope the trend continues on the forum (fingers crossed).

..

DeeLittle...I thought it was a collaboration between scientists commissioned by the government who gave us the internet (smiling). You're right though...it does take a bit of time to seek out the truth. Besides, the truth shall prevail...right???

Regarding A&P...I; had the technical version for those in the clerical division...no need for dissected critters in my class. Looks like an excellent website, although I don't have the updates yet for 3D imaging. My...the wonders of the digital world and the creative minds of those in the medical information industry!!!

goldenoldie — September 16, 2012 at 6:32 a.m. ( | suggest removal



#The Social Welfare State, beyond Ideology
**Are higher taxes and strong social "safety nets" antagonistic to a prosperous market economy? The evidence is now in**

By Jeffrey D. Sachs

Austrian-born free-market economist Friedrich August von Hayek suggested that high taxation would be a "road to serfdom," a threat to freedom itself.*

Most of the debate in the U.S. is clouded by vested interests and by ideology. Yet there is by now a rich empirical rec-ord to judge these issues scientifically. The evidence may be found by comparing a group of relatively free-market economies that have low to moderate rates of taxation and social outlays with a group of social-welfare states that have high rates of taxation and social outlays.

Not coincidentally, the low-tax, high-income countries are mostly English-speaking ones that share a direct historical lineage with 19th-century Britain and its theories of economic laissez-faire. These countries include Australia, Canada, Ireland, New Zealand, the U.K. and the U.S. The high-tax, high-income states are the Nordic social democracies, notably Denmark, Finland, Norway and Sweden, which have been governed by left-of-center social democratic parties for much or all of the post¿World War II era. They combine a healthy respect for market forces with a strong commitment to antipoverty programs. Budgetary outlays for social purposes average around 27 percent of gross domestic product (GDP) in the Nordic countries and just 17 percent of GDP in the English-speaking countries.

Friedrich Von Hayek was wrong
On average, the Nordic countries outperform the Anglo-Saxon ones on most measures of economic performance. Poverty rates are much lower there, and national income per working-age population is on average higher. Unemployment rates are roughly the same in both groups, just slightly higher in the Nordic countries. The budget situation is stronger in the Nordic group, with larger surpluses as a share of GDP.
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=the-social-welfare-state

mr_basil_seal — September 16, 2012 at 8:22 a.m. ( | suggest removal


mr_basil_seal — September 16, 2012 at 8:22 a.m.
Friedrich August von Hayek suggest that high tax states are a threat to freedom, your article goes on to discuss income. The fact is that none of the socialist democracies mentioned protect freedom of speech. They all have "protections" in place but they all have exemptions to the right based on content. In the United States, we may still have freedom of speech but as we have moved to the left we have lost many rights.

Note, I am not blaming the lost rights on just the democrats, so don't get defensive, the Neocons are just as much, if not more to blame.

frobert — September 16, 2012 at 9:02 a.m. ( | suggest removal


**Open the Presidential Debates!**

But citizens should do more than just pressure the commission. After all, its oversight is not required by law. Only back-room deals engineered by the major parties and their candidates give the commission its power. Why not pressure the parties and candidates to open things up? “Debates have the potential to be the most interesting, unscripted and definitional part of the campaign,” Nader says. “So why ration them? Instead of three presidential debates, why not have twenty-one spread across the fall? Why not have debates all over the country? In inner cities and rural areas? Various formats? Debates that focus on specific sets of issues? Why not let activists ask questions based on their knowledge and experience? Why not have moderators who challenge candidates, who ask follow-up questions, who encourage candidates to go at it?”

http://www.thenation.com/article/169635/open-presidential-debates

nailingit — September 16, 2012 at 9:15 a.m. ( | suggest removal


nailingit — September 16, 2012 at 9:15 a.m.

Limiting political parties access to the debates makes no sense. The press conducts polls, if they choose not to include popular third parties like Green or Libertarian they are excluded from the debates by the press because they were not in the polls. If a candidate is on the ballot in the majority of the States, they should be included in the debates.

Our current choice is between two center-left authoritarian parties, bent on world domination and oppression.

frobert — September 16, 2012 at 9:30 a.m. ( | suggest removal


hawkeye — September 15, 2012 at 8:09 p.m. -- "OK, this is just wrong!!!"

There was also another incident early today, where an Afghan police officer opened fire on NATO troops, killing 4 US soldiers. This is the third incident carried out by those presumed to be friendly in 3 days - 8 of our people have died. These incidents are on the increase.

This is Vietnam all over again; a group representing a minority of the population (Viet Cong, Taliban) is able to carry on guerrilla operations at will because we have no idea of who's who, and the majority of the people are too afraid of reprisal to say anything.

It took the Soviets 9 years to figure out they'd never beat the Afghan mujahideen and uphold the unpopular Marxist government there - at a cost of about 68,000 casualties and billions of dollars in equipment. Considering we funded and supported that rebel movement, you'd think we would know our chances of doing any better supporting Karzai's government aren't all that good.

roger — September 16, 2012 at 11:24 a.m. ( | suggest removal


**How Mitt Romney Helped Monsanto Take Over the World**

Dr. Earl Beaver, who was Monsanto's waste director during the Bain period, says that Bain was certainly "aware" of the "PCB and dioxin scandals" because they created "a negative public perception that was costing the company money." So Bain recommended focusing "on the businesses that didn't have those perceptions," Beaver recalls, starting with "life science products that were biologically based," including genetically engineered crops, as well as Roundup, the hugely profitable weed-killer. "These were the products that Bain gave their go-ahead to," Beaver contends, noting that Romney was a key player, "reviewing the data collected by other people and developing alternatives," talking mostly to "the higher muckety-mucks."

In other words, Romney and Bain played crucial roles in shaping Monsanto's strategy of selling off big chunks of its legacy chemical businesses and reinventing itself as ag-biotech firm.

And one of those "higher muckety-mucks," then-Monsanto CEO John W. Hanley, was so impressed with Romney's work that he helped launch Bain Capital, the spin-off private-equity firm to which Romney owes his fortune, explicitly as a vehicle to keep Romney in the Bain fold, Barrett reports. Hanley even placed $1 million of his own cash in Bain Capital's original investment fund.

Read more @

http://www.motherjones.com/tom-philpott/2012/09/romney-monsanto-bain

nailingit — September 16, 2012 at 11:32 a.m. ( | suggest removal


Mr. Basil,

You might want to read the attached article from last year - it notes a strong move to the right by the voters in these countries since the Scientific American article was published in 2006. There's a real concern that they won't be able to maintain the programs noted in Sachs' article.

http://www.policy-network.net/pno_detail.aspx?ID=3983&title;=Re-politicising+Nordic+social+democracy

There are many factors cited, but one that can't be ignored is the ability of the social welfare state to support immigration by large numbers of people moving there and using the support systems. Germans were having to face this same issue when I was there in the late '90s - there was a fair amount of hostility toward the Turks, Kurds, Eastern Europeans, Russians and others who moved their and were overloading the nation's ability to maintain programs they were used to.

roger — September 16, 2012 at 12:03 p.m. ( | suggest removal


at least God gave us the internet, and the ability to track claims back to the event itself, or lack of one.

DeeLittle — September 16, 2012 at 1:57 a.m.

Just how did that happen, again? I thought it was Al Gore.

hawkeye — September 16, 2012 at 12:18 p.m. ( | suggest removal


hawkeye- It seems as though it's one of those "you didn't build it" moments. It sounds as though it's that terrible demon of societal collectivism.

**Yes, Government Researchers Really Did Invent the Internet**

http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/observations/2012/07/23/yes-government-researchers-really-did-invent-the-internet/

nailingit — September 16, 2012 at 12:54 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Hawkeye - Global warming advocates cite An Inconvenient Truth as though it's a bible, so....

roger — September 16, 2012 at 1 p.m. ( | suggest removal


nailingit — September 16, 2012 at 11:32 a.m.

Uh Oh, nailingit...maybe you'd better take a look at this article. It's not just Romney...

http://www.naturalnews.com/036008_Obama_Monsanto_Africa.html

goldenoldie — September 16, 2012 at 1:12 p.m. ( | suggest removal


If one was to think about it, DeeLittle is correct, atleast IMO that God created the internet.
After all God does give us the intelligence and man just had to figure out how to use it.

Science side of it: Who Really, Really Invented the Internet?

Eisenhower actually came up with it as a means to a faster way for the military to communicate.

The government envisioned a World Wide Web as early as the 1940s and went on to develop the Pentagon’s Advanced Research Projects Agency Network (ARPANET). However, that network did not lead to the Internet we have today.
The government had many of today’s Internet’s integral pieces, such as TCP/IP, but never put them together.
It was ultimately private enterprise that made the connections to create the Internet we have today.

So to say AL Gore invented the internet is incorrect, but Gore did partially supported the creation through federal legislation.

ELISI — September 16, 2012 at 1:47 p.m. ( | suggest removal


ELISI — September 16, 2012 at 1:47 p.m.

So you want to be one of those that say "God invented everything"? So, does that include disease, war, crime and criminals, disasters, global warming, droughts and those stupid people in Oregon City that say he will heal their children and then let them die? Id this all true, he did all that, he controls all?

hawkeye — September 16, 2012 at 1:55 p.m. ( | suggest removal


ELISI — September 16, 2012 at 1:47 p.m.

The first commercial telefax service was started in 1865 between Paris and Lyons, this could be arguably the first incarnation of the internet.

frobert — September 16, 2012 at 1:58 p.m. ( | suggest removal


goldenoldie @ 1:12- Granted Mother Jones leans left but does source it's articles and is considered a viable source for most. They receive much media attention due to David Corn & others and tend to vet themselves. Having said that, with regards to Africa, the Obama administration is also enlisitng a variety of companies to help out the starvation problem in Africa, and self interests don't seem apparent.

I just found it interesting how far the tentacles of Bain/Romney reach. I guess one could could look at it (scenario) as who's more responsible, Dr. Frankenstein who created the monster, or the nefarious villains (in follow up Frankenstein sequels) who used the monster to serve their purposes. Or just the blind dude who just wanted a little companionship and share a smoke.

Anyway, It seems as though motivations come into play somewhat. I rarely source wiki stuff much, but found this interesting about your source "NaturalNews".

**Conspiracy theories**

NaturalNews.com (formerly Newstarget) is a website founded and owned by self-proclaimed "health ranger" Mike "HealthDanger" Adams.

Being the vast repository of quackery and paranoia that it is, NaturalNews wouldn't be complete without Big Pharma conspiracy theories.[14][15] There is no depth Big Pharma will not sink to, no lie too big for them to tell, in order to poison American citizens and cover up their "junk science."

While Adams started out mostly spreading Big Pharma conspiracy theories, he has over the years descended into complete insanity. He claims that the "pharmaceutical industry" has created HIV vaccines with the sole purpose to create as many "HIV positive people" as possible to which one could sell anti-retroviral drugs at a huge profit. Mammographic screening would also create cancer, which would have to be expensively treated and again bring profits. He refers to chemotherapy as quackery.[16]

Adams has also come out as a hardcore 9/11 truther, birther, and pretty much everything else-er. He considers Alex Jones, Jeff Rense, and David Icke to be "REAL heroes."[20]
More recently, Adams has begun to formulate bizarre conspiracy theories claiming that Bill Gates and Microsoft are in the process of developing weaponized, ethnically-targeted influenza viruses as part of a sinister eugenics plot.[21] He has also managed to misinterpret attempts to develop reversible forms of male contraceptives as deliberate attempts to permanently sterilize minorities.[22]

Proving that his crankery is not limited to medical-related issues, he has also issued his informed opinion of the 2012 Colorado "Batman" shootings, declaring that they were "obviously" staged, or perhaps that the killer, James Holmes, was involved in "experimental" neuroscience that got out of hand. This indicates that he is an expert in firearms laws, neuroscience and psychology, as well as everything else.[23]

Read more @

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/NaturalNews

nailingit — September 16, 2012 at 2:12 p.m. ( | suggest removal


hawkeye — September 16, 2012 at 1:55 p.m.

Hawkeye, I thought you had referenced in past posts that as a child, religion was crammed down your throat. If that is so, then you'd know the issues you listed are in the Bible and have been mentioned multiple times. In fact, it also states reasoning behind issues such as the 40-day flood, famine and drought.

goldenoldie — September 16, 2012 at 2:15 p.m. ( | suggest removal



And one must also consider perhaps Monsanto isn't the Monster some claim it to be. Always good to stick with reputable publications, at least those that are somewhat mainstream and can be vetted/sourced.

Lotsa snake oil in today's internet market.

nailingit — September 16, 2012 at 2:29 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Nailingit, I understand where you're coming from with regards to the website choices and will do my best to find sites which are agreeable to the both of us.

So what do you think about this...Do you the US Secretary of Agriculture, Thomas Vilsack was a good choice by President Obama? What about Michael R. Taylor, Deputy Commissioner of the USDA, another appointed by the president? If you check a bit into their history, they both have direct ties to Monsanto...Vilsack, a former lawyer for Monsanto and Michael R. Taylor, former VP and lobbyist for Monsanto.

I'm sorry nailingit, but the *"more better"* mindset isn't always the better choice for the agricultural industry and for the good of the people. Inventing Roundup-Ready crops (which the Roundup enters our bloodstream as well as the bloodstream of meat animals we eat, along with the vegetables we consume) is not what I'd consider the betterment of our world. You are aware that even certain seeds in your local garden center are Roundup Ready...right??? All the more reason why I push for everyone who grows their own vegetables, choose proven heritage seeds and learn to harvest their own seed for the following year's plantings. I won't even get into the GM corn which sickened several people OR the GM soybeans. Not enough room in this post, lol.

I guess it's all in how we perceive what it is Monsanto (as well as certain chemical companies working hand in hand with Monsanto) is doing to the agricultural world and to the consumers.

My point in sharing this information...Monsanto is deeply rooted in our government. They're rubbin' elbows with the politicians...and President. I don't see your argument about Romney as being any different than my argument about Obama...both weighing heavily in the realm of *"shame on you"* to those in politics. Besides, you said *"one must also consider perhaps Monsanto isn't the Monster some claim it to be,"* yet you bash Romney for having ties to it. I see it as a monster, considering what I have witnessed in my own garden and to what I've read in several lawsuits involving Monsanto and "organic" farmers in North America. Of course, what I have witnessed...can be determined as hearsay.

So which way is it, nailingit? Is it a good thing or a bad thing regarding possible Romney ties to Monsanto...or is this just a political slant, trying to convince those who aren't totally convinced about who they're going to vote for in November? The only confusion I have is trying to determine your stance.

goldenoldie — September 16, 2012 at 2:58 p.m. ( | suggest removal


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z1xUiu...

Blind faith is just that, blind to anything else. Trying to reason with those whose beliefs are rooted in "faith" and nothing else, is like trying to reason with something inanimate. Why try?

nailingit — September 16, 2012 at 3 p.m. ( | suggest removal


goldenoldie — September 16, 2012 at 2:15 p.m

Yea, well that was 50 years ago and I pretty much dropped most of the memory when the hypocrites threw me out and asked me not to come back until I could wear the appropriate clothing to "Sunday School". ***NOT JEANS!***

So if HE has control over all this, why does HE let it happen? Doesn't seem right to me.

hawkeye — September 16, 2012 at 3:05 p.m. ( | suggest removal


goldenoldie @ 2:58- *yet you bash Romney for having ties to it.*

*I just found it interesting how far the tentacles of Bain/Romney reach.*

And with the "FrankenMitt" scenario...

*And one must also consider perhaps Monsanto isn't the Monster some claim it to be.*

I hardly think my statement was "bashing" Romney, or Monsanto for that matter. Again, interesting article with Bain/Romney ties.

nailingit — September 16, 2012 at 3:11 p.m. ( | suggest removal


hawkeye — September 16, 2012 at 1:55 p.m

REREAD what I said. I said IMO. I said that God gave mankind intelligence..what we do with it, is up to us. So in a sense yes by giving us the intelligence to invent the internet God had a hand in it.

Geesh Louise stop this childish BS of reading negative crap into everything anyone says. I did after all say IMO, so now even you can't/won't allow anyone to have an opinion that any and all opinions have to be identical to yours? Sorry but this gal don't play those games. I have just as much right to voice my opinion as you or anyone else without being jumped on for it.
If it happens to be what we agree on, fine, if we don't that's fine too. No need to act like a gestapo about it.
Try asking questions next time as to why I believe as I do instead of taking the low road.
I really thought you a much better person than that.

ELISI — September 16, 2012 at 3:14 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Well Hawkeye, all I can tell you is for you to take the time to read the Bible. You don't have to agree with it, just read it....not in one night, not in one week...but maybe one which you can reference and review. There's actually a new international version available which is easier than the ones we had as kids. Accessibility to it via the internet is available at your fingertips as well.

I'll be honest with you, Hawkeye...in Parochial School back then, it was a nightmare for me as well, but I held to my faith. I wasn't going to let the tyrant of the parochial school convince me to turn back on my faith. To me, it was a test...my test. There's a reason for everything in our lives. It's all connected to what we are today and will be till our final days, my friend.

goldenoldie — September 16, 2012 at 3:17 p.m. ( | suggest removal


asked me not to come back until I could wear the appropriate clothing to "Sunday School". NOT JEANS!

hawkeye — September 16, 2012 at 3:05 p.m

I'm sorry that you attended such an uptight church. Glad my church don't care what you wear, slacks, shirt, jeans, T-shirt, shorts shirt. or suit..you don't go to church to be a fashion plate to others, you go to worship God. God doesn't care if you showed up naked to church (tho others would lol) God looks at what you have in your heart not what you wear.

ELISI — September 16, 2012 at 3:25 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Nailingit @3:11 pm,

I apologize for referencing your "bashing" of Romney. It was that dreaded assumption thingy again, given that I assumed you remembered there's quite a following of folks here in the forum who are against Monsanto and the end result of your comment regarding the connection of Romney and Monsanto, leading me to assume it was a dig against the man. I'll try to choose my words more carefully.

goldenoldie — September 16, 2012 at 3:27 p.m. ( | suggest removal


ELISI...in the Catholic Parochial Schools back in our days, we had to wear a uniform. I guess it's something to do with "stickin' to the rules."

..

Note To Self...

Do not have Monsanto's website up at the same time as Federal Election Commission website. It'll freeze up your system every time.

goldenoldie — September 16, 2012 at 3:30 p.m. ( | suggest removal


So nailingit, you never answered me about Mr. Taylor or Mr. Vilsack. Do you have a comment about that? BTW, did you know that Hillary was also former legal counsel for Monsanto???

goldenoldie — September 16, 2012 at 3:35 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Oh yeah Golden, I remember those who went to the one in my hometown.

Girls wore blue/grey plaid pleated skirts, white blouses and navy sweaters, boys wore grey wool slacks, white shirts and navy sweaters.

ELISI — September 16, 2012 at 3:35 p.m. ( | suggest removal


BTW, did anybody here on the forum know that Monsanto produced the herbicide in Agent Orange??? They also invented PCBs.

goldenoldie — September 16, 2012 at 3:42 p.m. ( | suggest removal


ELISI, mine was dark blue and forest green plaid with the white blouse. My brothers wore the dark blue or dark green slacks and white shirts. Same with the sweaters from what you saw.

goldenoldie — September 16, 2012 at 3:45 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Golden, the grade and jr high wore the plaid, high school girls solid navy skirts, white blouse and grey sweater, boys stayed the same as the jr and grade but they also had navy slacks.

ELISI — September 16, 2012 at 4 p.m. ( | suggest removal


goldenoldie @ 3:35- *about Mr. Taylor or Mr. Vilsack. Do you have a comment about that?*

No opinion one way or the other.

*did you know that Hillary was also former legal counsel for Monsanto???*

No. If true I'd guess she did more than a competent job for her client.

nailingit — September 16, 2012 at 4:01 p.m. ( | suggest removal



***Talk about your educated voters***

(RNN) - New poll results focusing on Ohio voters show that 15 percent of registered Republicans in the state believe Republican presidential candidate Mitt Romney is more responsible for the death of Osama Bin Laden than incumbent Barack Obama.

The poll, conducted by Public Policy Polling, asked respondents from the key swing state a series of questions concerning the likability, favorability and approval of the two candidates. It also focused on post-convention topics.

When asked who was more responsible for Bin Laden's death, 15 percent answered in favor of Romney, however the majority of Republicans said they were unsure. About 38 percent gave credit to Obama.

Registered Democrats in Ohio had dramatically different responses. The poll showed 86 percent of Democrats believe Obama is more responsible for killing Al-Qaida leader. Only 1 percent said Romney deserves more credit and 13 percent were unsure.

With Republicans, Democrats and independent combined, 63 percent gave credit to Obama, 6 percent to Romney and 31 percent were unsure.

The poll also asked favorability questions concerning some speakers from the Democratic National Convention, including Julian Castro and Elizabeth Warren. The results showed most voters were unsure if they felt favorably or unfavorably about the speakers.

Ohioan voters seemed to think that the Democrats had a better overall convention, with a total of 47 percent voting in favor of the DNC. Meanwhile, 35 percent said the RNC was better and 18 percent were unsure.

Overall, the poll reported Obama's lead in Ohio up to 5 percent. It surveyed 1,072 Ohio voters between Sept. 7 and 9. The state has 18 electoral votes

hawkeye — September 16, 2012 at 4:18 p.m. ( | suggest removal


youtube is a wonderful thing, sometimes. Never knew they did this - too bad it didn't make the album.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VXasKY...

roger — September 16, 2012 at 4:19 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Hawkeye - No one ever accused Americans of being smart. Here's another one from a couple of months ago.

http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/lookout/obama-pays-bills-scam-163528180.html

roger — September 16, 2012 at 4:25 p.m. ( | suggest removal


roger that reminds me of the night of the election when everyone was waiting for Obama to appear to give his winners speech.
A reporter asked this one lady how she felt, she screamed with joy and said she now didn't have to worry cause Obama was going to pay her mortgage.

ELISI — September 16, 2012 at 4:45 p.m. ( | suggest removal


On the Ohio/Bin Laden/Republican idiocy poll. I think a takeaway would be that quite a few repubs are frustrated with their candidate and answer some of these questions with sarcasm. At least I would hope so. That or a pool of Fox News viewers picked up the phone/other source.

Rhetorical question of the day...Why the hell is Liz Cheney given work on major TV outlets discussing political/world affairs? She used to be pretty much confined to Fox News. Now I'm watching ABC's This Week and she's part of the round table discussion.

Notable difference though, her over the top RW rhetoric is not going unchallenged like it did on Fox. This person brings nothing to the table. Her only creds are some position at the state Dept. Dick got her under the Dubya admin.

She did make a little news today though! :)))

**Liz Cheney Claims Obama Has "Abandoned" Czechoslovakia (Which Hasn't Existed Since The Early '90s)**

Cheney Also Pushes The Falsehood That Obama "Has Been Apologizing For America"

http://mediamatters.org/video/2012/09/16/liz-cheney-claims-obama-has-abandoned-czechoslo/189922

nailingit — September 16, 2012 at 4:53 p.m. ( | suggest removal


nailingit — September 16, 2012 at 4:53 p.m.

I think you are confusing NeoCon with right wing.

frobert — September 16, 2012 at 5:18 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Michael Lewis is one of my favorite modern day authors, especially when it comes to exposing the greed and manipulations in the financial world and Wall Street (The Big Short, Liars Poker, The Money Culture).

I saw part of a news program this a.m. where he was talking about Pres Obama and the roughness of the pick-up basketball games he plays in. I eventually decided to find the print version of that interview, and stumbled across this Vanity Fair article. If you've got about 10 minutes, it's very interesting reading - does a good job of showing the human side of our Pres.

http://www.vanityfair.com/politics/2012/10/michael-lewis-profile-barack-obama

roger — September 16, 2012 at 5:40 p.m. ( | suggest removal


frobert @ 5:18 Please...feel free to expound. :))

A peek inside the Romney campaign.

**Inside the campaign: How Mitt Romney stumbled**

A growing number of conservatives are blaming Stevens for advocating a campaign of caution, one that puts all the emphasis not on how good Romney could be but how bad Obama is. “Credit for this fog goes to that inner circle of Romney advisers who never liked the Ryan pick and have reasserted their will over a candidate who is naturally cautious,” conservative columnist Kimberley Strassel wrote in Friday’s Wall Street Journal. “In the la-la land where adviser Stuart Stevens presides, Mr. Romney wins by never saying a single thing, ever, that might rock a single boat, ever.”’

Stevens was a big, early advocate of a bland vice presidential candidate, privately talking up former Minnesota Gov. Tim Pawlenty and pushing the idea of an outsider, anti-Beltway ticket. But Stevens is hardly to blame for what many conservatives consider a campaign that is specifics-free and lame. That blame goes straight to the man running his own campaign: Romney himself, according to a number of people in and out of the campaign.

Read more: http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0912/81280_Page5.html#ixzz26giOOk4p

nailingit — September 16, 2012 at 6:59 p.m. ( | suggest removal


nailingit — September 16, 2012 at 6:59 p.m.

The NeoCon movement within the Republican party started with liberals that opposed the Democrats anti civil rights stance. They went to the republican party with their big government aggressive foreign policy views and contaminated the party. The Republican party as it currently stands, is not right wing, they are left centrist. Increasing the size and scope of government is a left philosophy not a right one. I realize that they offend your left view, as they should, they are an abomination, having the worst traits of the right and left. The true left wants to expand government for the betterment of mankind, the true right wants to contract government for the same reason, The NeoCons want to expand government for other reasons.

http://conservapedia.com/Neoconservatism

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoconse...

frobert — September 16, 2012 at 7:40 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Liz Cheney Claims Obama Has "Abandoned" Czechoslovakia (Which Hasn't Existed Since The Early '90s)

nailingit — September 16, 2012 at 4:53 p.m.

***AS HAVE I !!!***

hawkeye — September 16, 2012 at 7:57 p.m. ( | suggest removal


frobert- Call it what you will in your world. I suppose the definition of a liberal should be redefined also. :) I recall you made some type of attempt to correct luvit recently concerning this. Whatever floats your boat. It's quite obvious today's neo-con is anything but "left centrist". To view neocon rhetoric as right wing is more than correct.

Semantics aside, what is important is to understand the political scene in the here and now, if one wants to discuss today's current political events in a cogent manner.

**Views on economics**

While neoconservatism is primarily concerned with foreign policy, there is also some discussion of internal economic policies. Neoconservatism is generally supportive of free markets and capitalism, favoring supply side approaches, but it shows several points of disagreement with classical liberalism and fiscal conservatism: Irving Kristol states that neocons are more relaxed about budget deficits and tend to reject the Hayekian notion that the growth of government influence on society and public welfare is "the road to serfdom".[72] Indeed, to safeguard democracy, government intervention and budget deficits may sometimes be necessary, Kristol argues.

wiki again! AHHHH!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoconse...

nailingit — September 16, 2012 at 8:20 p.m. ( | suggest removal


nailingit — September 16, 2012 at 8:20 p.m. -- "wiki again! AHHHH!"

Better source than Rachel.

roger — September 16, 2012 at 8:30 p.m. ( | suggest removal


nailingit — September 16, 2012 at 8:20 p.m.

If they look to expand government they are left of center. Just because they don't fit in any way with your left view doesn't make them want to contract government.

frobert — September 16, 2012 at 9:17 p.m. ( | suggest removal


**Strong**Meir Dagan, Former Mossad Chief, Says Attack On Iran 'Stupidest Idea' He's Ever Heard (VIDEO)

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/09/16/meir-dagan-mossad-iran-attack-stupid_n_1888840.html

nailingit — September 16, 2012 at 9:58 p.m. ( | suggest removal


**Afghanistan NATO Attacks: 4 U.S. Troops Killed In Afghan Inside Attack**

KABUL, Afghanistan — Afghan police killed four American soldiers coming to their aid after a checkpoint attack Sunday, the third assault by government forces or insurgents disguised in military uniforms in as many days.

The escalating violence – including a NATO airstrike that killed eight Afghan women and girls gathering firewood – is straining the military partnership between Kabul and NATO as the U.S. begins to withdraw thousands of troops sent three years ago to route the Taliban from southern strongholds.

The attacks drew unusually strong criticism Sunday from the U.S. military's top officer, Army Gen. Martin Dempsey, who called the problem of rogue Afghan soldiers and police turning their guns on allied troops "a very serious threat" to the war effort.

This year, 51 international service members have died at the hands of their Afghan allies or those who have infiltrated their ranks. At least 12 such attacks came in August alone, leaving 15 dead.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/09/16/afghanistan-nato-attacks_n_1887938.html

nailingit — September 16, 2012 at 10:24 p.m. ( | suggest removal


nailingit — September 16, 2012 at 10:24 p.m.

So my questions are these...why are our troops still there? Why hasn't the President ordered the return of all troops? Why not just use drones observing the borders and web monitoring to keep abreast of the situation? Why not trace the activities of Al Qaeda and all involved via covert operations? Why not increase our own protection here at home?

Too many questions...sigh....!!!

..

nailingit — September 16, 2012 at 4:01 p.m.

Weird day yesterday, nailingit...here's something else we agreed on...:)))

..

nailingit — September 16, 2012 at 4:53 p.m.
-and-
hawkeye — September 16, 2012 at 7:57 p.m.

To those of us who have Czech heritage in our family history (great grandparents who emigrated to the US at the turn of the 19th to 20th centuries), we recognize the country as Czechoslovakia. Just thought I'd share that little tidbit.

goldenoldie — September 17, 2012 at 6:05 a.m. ( | suggest removal


goldenoldie @ 6:05- A better way to answer your questions would be to source some major/credible news publications with regards to the Obama administration's withdrawal policy in Afghanistan.

My person view is/was to take the Biden approach with small contingencies responding to intel. We're headed that way anyway. The power and influence of the DOD is enormous. Lotsa things happening that understandably we're not aware of.

Working with the political powers within the Afghani administration must be more than a chore.

The minimal & failed effort during the Bush years will haunt us for a long time to come.

nailingit — September 17, 2012 at 12:11 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Nailingit, I'm glad you checked in on the old forum now that the new one is up and running. I notice that you speak of the minimal & failed effort during the Bush years...is this a continued failure by Bush or is this a failure by the current Administration in Afghanistan??? I'm beginning to wonder if this is an intended failure of control in that region...sort of a genocide with no intention of loss of American lives but of a group whose intent is to destroy the "Infidels" as they refer to the western civilization. The loss and injury of our fighting brave is the solemn truth for price we have to pay.

Boy...it's a hard call on this one for me.

BTW...did you notice Dana has gone incredibly silent??? I'm wondering if they're closed off from using the internet for personal needs. I hope he's okay.

goldenoldie — September 17, 2012 at 12:31 p.m. ( | suggest removal


goldenoldie- When I spoke of minimal/failed policy in Afghanistan, both sides are somewhat to blame. Having said that, Bush by and large invested little effort into a conflict which he chose to start. He dropped the ball for Iraq. Had we invested a fraction of the resources into Afghanistan that we did in Iraq (and left Iraq alone), our occupation could have been over a long time ago. Iraq bankrupted us financially and on the world front morally.

It's notable that Romney's camp is weighted heavily with Bush advisors.

I'm betting DBW will check in soon.

nailingit — September 17, 2012 at 12:54 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Boy nailingit, we're on a roll lately with agreements on several discussion points. Regarding Bush and Iraq...to this day I consider his duties there were to clean up what his father failed. He had to clean up the Bush Family Name, to show that they finish what they start. At least, that's how I look at it. Not saying it's right, but that's just how I see it. Anyways, I agree totally with you that more investment should have initially been made on Afghanistan from the beginning; especially since that is where the leading minds of the attack on 9/11 were mostly focused even though people like OBL were actually from other countries. They just held to Afghanistan for what I believe was because of the monetary value of what was yet to be mined in Afghanistan...a mother lode. We had the capabilities to go into Iraq the same way we went into Pakistan to acquire OBL, but it wasn't part of the plan I guess. It's greed, nailingit...pure greed...and -

Greed is an ugly virtue. It makes great nations do stupid things.

goldenoldie — September 17, 2012 at 2:10 p.m. ( | suggest removal


goldenoldie- I agree with your post and just wanted to say it's nice to have such a reasonable discussion.

nailingit — September 17, 2012 at 7:45 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Nailingit...again, we are in total agreement. I'd much rather discuss issues the way we have in the past few days. I'm really not someone out with some secret agenda. I'm just trying to understand why people say things, how they came to their conclusions and where it is they obtain their information so that I may form my own conclusion (which is still open for criticism by others who may have other information which counters my "conclusion." We're in this rat race together, my friend...if it's okay to call you friend...and the only way anything is going to be solved is if people would stop blinding themselves with assumptions, rumors and innuendos...and open their eyes and ears to everything around us. I am no different. As I've said before...I've learned a lot from the folks of the forum to which I am appreciative and that includes you, nailingit.

I guess sometimes, it takes other "old cronies" of the forum to wake up this Goldie once in a while...8)))

So now...onto the other forum...whaddya say???

goldenoldie — September 18, 2012 at 6:01 a.m. ( | suggest removal


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