Open forum, Aug 12-18



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This is our last of the 6 weeks of Friday furloughs for Defense (cut from the previously scheduled 11 weeks). Don't believe that hand wringing sob story about the poor Madigan worker who starred in Sen Murray's little news grab article this past weekend. We were given months of advance warning - originally it was to be over 20 weeks, then cut to 11, and now at 6 weeks. She lost perhaps $75 per week take home, depending on deductions, etc. Anyone with an ounce of sense cut back and saved - no need for $5 coffee drinks or eating lunch out every day.

roger — August 12, 2013 at 6:45 a.m. ( | suggest removal

roger-Quite a broad brush and accusatory, let alone unsympathetic to cuts that are hurting folks and arguably our military readiness. I thought your Face Book post about this was way off too. Cutting off your nose to spite your face?

Why oil check the middle class folk? Pick on House Republicans for not repealing these lousy ill conceived cuts.

Most of these people have kids to feed and other needs that seniors don't.

nailingit — August 12, 2013 at 7:11 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Why just this morning...

///Paul Ryan Spending Cuts Face Backlash From Moderate Republicans///

WASHINGTON -- Midway between the 2012 and 2014 election campaigns, moderate Republican conservatives are beginning to foment a revolt of their own – a backlash to anti-spending tea party shrillness as budget cuts begin to significantly shrink defense and domestic programs.

Tea party forces may have dominated the House GOP's approach to the budget so far, but pragmatists in the party have served notice they won't stand idly by for indiscriminate spending cuts to politically popular community development grants, education programs and even Amtrak.

Voting in the spring for the tea party budget developed by Rep. Paul Ryan, R-Wis., who was Mitt Romney's vice presidential running mate last year, was one thing. But as long as a Democrat occupies the White House, Ryan's budget is little more than a nonbinding wish list – cutting Medicaid, Medicare and food stamps and slashing budgets for domestic agencies funded annually through appropriations bills.

nailingit — August 12, 2013 at 7:19 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Anybody find it a bit unnerving that Rep. Moeller and Sen. Cleveland haven't bothered to keep the voters informed on their respective legislative websites since the beginning of July???

Sometimes silence can be a dangerous thing.

goldenoldie — August 12, 2013 at 7:24 a.m. ( | suggest removal

nailingit — August 12, 2013 at 7:11 a.m.

Expressions of honesty in opinions shared always bothers someone. It doesn't seem to bother news rags or elected politicians unless it affects those who hold guilt in their hearts.

goldenoldie — August 12, 2013 at 7:27 a.m. ( | suggest removal

make that

"always bother"

goldenoldie — August 12, 2013 at 7:28 a.m. ( | suggest removal

This is the only demographic keeping Republicans from completely imploding. And they seem to be leaving in unprecedented numbers.

Watching Rome fall.

///Are Seniors Souring on the Republican Party?///

The GOP has lost more support among voters over 65 than any other demographic group in recent months, according to a new poll.

As bad as things get for Republicans -- with women, with minorities, with youths -- there's always been one group they can count on: the old. But now one Democratic pollster sees evidence that even seniors are starting to turn on the GOP.

Just 28 percent of voters 65 and older had a favorable view of the Republican Party in a national survey conducted last month by the Democratic pollster Stan Greenberg, versus 40 percent who had a positive view of the Democrats. That's a reversal from a poll Greenberg conducted in early 2011, when 43 percent of seniors saw Republicans favorably and 37 percent saw Democrats that way.

"It is now strikingly clear that [seniors] have turned sharply against the GOP," Erica Seifert, a senior associate at Greenberg's firm, wrote on the company's website this week. "We have seen other voters pull back from the GOP, but among no group has this shift been as sharp as it is among senior citizens."

nailingit — August 12, 2013 at 7:56 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Here's that Doc Sanjay Gupta documentary "Weed."
I question some of what's presented, but overall I think it's fairly unbiased. It's near 45 minutes long.

[link text][1]


Drift — August 12, 2013 at 7:57 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Drift- Thought you might like. It's amazing well educated people (let alone those in power) have these views in 2013.

nailingit — August 12, 2013 at 8:05 a.m. ( | suggest removal

@roger — August 12, 2013 at 6:45 a.m

I have to agree, people knew well in advance of the furloughs and should have planned ahead.

I contacted those family members and friends who fell into the furloughs. My brotherinlaw, both his parents, and friends.
Brotherinlaw was furloughed and welcomed the extra day off to spend with the kids. His parents (at the time close to retirement)also welcomed the time off to close all what was needed before retirement so when the time came they made a quick move from one state to another. Friends all said they just didn't go out and party like usual.

The "wringing sob stories" as you put it is IMO used to further make the R's look bad..and we all know the D's and mainstream media have been on a hot driven campaign to undermine them in anyway possible.

jasonb — August 12, 2013 at 8:11 a.m. ( | suggest removal

And today we have a LttE contributor complaining he's having a hard time finding qualified applicants who can pass a U.A. (he specifically points to "marijuana.").

His answer to the issue is to repeal a voter passed initiative. Wow.

Shall we take a look at said managers complaint for just a moment?

Is the issue cannabis use or the current "drug free workplace" policies? I mean, after all, if a positive hit for the THC metabolite wasn't on the radar then it wouldn't be an issue, now would it?

Please, don't misunderstand, I don't condone drug or alcohol use in the workplace (unless the "work" is writing ;^). The thing is, our current method for cannabis testing is antiquated and, frankly, useless in determining impairment.

And further, there's a certain irony. A person who enjoys a bit of cannabis now and again can stay "dirty" for weeks, perhaps even a month. Yet, if the crackhead can manage to stay away from the pipe for three or four days they'll pee clean. Irony? Mayhap ludicrous is a better word.

So, rather than revamping a testing policy, thereby giving the employer better access to "qualified applicants," this particular employer would rather toss out a revolutionary step in getting beyond the madness. A step the citizens of this state have enacted through the initiative process. Wow.

[link text][1]


Drift — August 12, 2013 at 8:51 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Drift — August 12, 2013 at 8:51 a.m.

This is one of my biggest gripes about current & past laws. Just wondering if an initiative of some sort could be had to improve this situation. I think discrimination of this sort will be reversed in the future, but wondering what can be done at the citizen level now.

Businesses are hurting themselves and the community when they limit their hiring pool in this way. It's unjust, discriminatory and just plain bad for business.

nailingit — August 12, 2013 at 10:39 a.m. ( | suggest removal


As I noted, we had plenty of advanced warning the furloughs were coming. The article says the Madigan worker was clueless this was going to happen until 30 days prior, and that she couldn't prepare properly on three paychecks. That was patently false. We were intially told up to 22 days furlough back around the beginning of the fiscal year. Somewhere about April they decided on 11 days. They delayed a bit more, putting all the articles in the papers about how much it would cost each state, etc. Eventually they issued our 30 day letter.

Unsympathetic? The single mother GS05 who several months ago quit getting her nails done, quit going out and started brown bagging it, among other saving efforts, found several hundred dollars in groceries in her car when this started. Next we started driving her to/from work to help save her gas. She's getting through no problem. The two higher grade people who share the belief that if they work they deserve to play took vacations and a couple of other "extravagances" leading up to the furloughs - they're upset because they're overdue on bills and are having problems paying their rent, yet they continue going out to lunch every day. Sympathy, or more accurately caring, goes to those who by their actions show they deserve it.

roger — August 12, 2013 at 10:45 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Those damn government workers thinking they have a right to go out for a lunch.

The nerve.

nailingit — August 12, 2013 at 10:58 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Sure. And some think it should be a free lunch.

But this discussion digresses - My original intent was to say that Sen Murray was playing B.S. political games. She knew the real details of the furloughs before she went to Ft Lewis on that little publicity stunt. And if by some wild stretch of the imagination she didn't know them - well, then she's just way too stupid to be having as much power as she does. You don't go hunting bear with blanks.

roger — August 12, 2013 at 2:26 p.m. ( | suggest removal

roger — August 12, 2013 at 10:45 a.m

I completely agree with you Roger. When I was working at a local truck manufacturer, we were told of days off a week before. That's about all the warning we ever got. There were times, years ago, that on Friday they would hand you your check and tell you that you were laid off for a month. Actually some people looked forward to that time off and were disappointed when it DIDN'T happen. As far as I'm concerned, if they warned you, you've got nobody to blame but yourself.

hawkeye — August 12, 2013 at 2:26 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Now, after losing tons of money and sponsors and her show, this is what she gets??? There is no justice.

SAVANNAH, Ga. (AP) — A federal judge in Georgia has thrown out race discrimination claims by a former Savannah restaurant manager whose lawsuit against Paula Deen ended up causing the celebrity cook to lose a big slice of her culinary empire.

Lisa Jackson sued Deen and her brother, Bubba Hiers, last year saying she was subjected to sexual harassment and racist attitudes during the five years she worked at their restaurant, Uncle Bubba's Seafood and Oyster House. But U.S. District Court Judge William T. Moore Jr. ruled Monday that Jackson, who is white, has no standing to sue them for race discrimination.

The ruling leaves intact Jackson's sexual harassment claims.

The Food Network and other business partners dropped Deen after she acknowledged using racial slurs in the past during questioning by Jackson's lawyers.

hawkeye — August 12, 2013 at 2:43 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Eric Holder wants to quit putting dopers in prison. (More or less, anyhow.) I gather he thinks prisons should be for real bad guys.

FOX News version - After privatizing prisons some years ago, now we want to put all their employees out of work??? Mayhem will rule, and the dealers will be lining up outside elementary schools to sell dope.

MSNBC version - Lock up Congress, the CEOs of Mobil Exxon, etc, and the Wall Street Bankers.

roger — August 12, 2013 at 2:46 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Roger, maybe they should build "junkie" prisons just for those dopers that can't quite kick the habit. You have to stay until you are clean for two months. Then, they let you go in some other town so you don't hook up with your old friends. Just a thought.

hawkeye — August 12, 2013 at 3:29 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Hawkeye, Perhaps if it was classified as an involuntary commitment to a rehabilitation center - something that wouldn't stay on your record as an arrest and hurt the chance for future employment. But bottom line is the person has to want to be free of the drug; otherwise they'll find new friends who will be quite willing to direct them back into more of the same. Misery loves company.

It is a shame, though, that there are probably plenty of people who would willingly respond to residential treatment - but the limited number of spaces go instead to people with money, like the snotty little Hollywood girls who appear to be trying to set records for the number of stays.

roger — August 12, 2013 at 5:28 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Roger, I think the Fox version focuses on the private aspects of prisons. nice little cottage industry we have with lots of money to be made. if not private, Fox would scream to lay off the lazy gov workers.
The MSNBC version, on the other hand, completely appeals to me. Man, this a great fantasy, lock up the real criminals.

We tend to lock them up and waste all that money, but we can never find the money to actual treat people. we got our priorities all screwed up.

luvithere — August 12, 2013 at 5:33 p.m. ( | suggest removal


I tend to agree.

Some interesting reading on one of the larger players in the private prison game - Corrections Corporation of America. Forbes did an article back in June, with links to some extensive documentation compiled by an organization called Grassroots Leadership. If even a quarter of this is true, I'd like to know why Justice isn't investigating the company and their practices.

roger — August 12, 2013 at 6:02 p.m. ( | suggest removal

OK, all you who refuse to play on facebook ought to read the following article.

"Nowadays, if you’re not on Facebook, it’s possible you don’t actually exist."

“Not having a Facebook account could be the first sign that you are a mass murderer.”

"If you are going out with someone and they don’t have a Facebook profile, you should be suspicious."

"Continuing to navigate life without having this digital form of identification may be like trying to get into a bar without a driver’s license."

roger — August 12, 2013 at 6:19 p.m. ( | suggest removal

And considering the rate at which FB is losing its customer base/people not accessing their account, I guess more of us don't exist.
Not a bad idea.

luvithere — August 12, 2013 at 6:24 p.m. ( | suggest removal

A State auditor turns up more problems at WSDOT. Seems like we entered into a 5 year contract with an electronic tolling company, despite their low evaluation scores. Later, the company would struggle to perform and WSDOT wouldn't be prepared with contingency plans, auditors said. That's one of the reasons the audit cites for months of delay implementing the system and charging tolls on the state Route 520 bridge.

WSDOT has got to be the most incompetent organization we have - They understand spending taxpayer money all too well, but seem incapable of making sure it's spent wisely.

roger — August 12, 2013 at 6:35 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Citizen Forum night at City Council. CVTV 23

C Crain is there. Micheline Doan is speaking now.

langenthal — August 12, 2013 at 6:38 p.m. ( | suggest removal

roger: My goal is to be able to fly under the radar as much as possible. If not having a FB account makes me a non-person to the world, I'll raise my glass to that.

I am actually impressed when I google someone and not much pops up. How did they do that?

manthou — August 12, 2013 at 7:21 p.m. ( | suggest removal

The Drug Court alternative of more recent years, has addressed some of the concerns expressed here, and is at least a step in the right direction of viewing drug abuse as a medical issue, not criminal. Just the same, if someone chooses to fry their brains; it’s their life.

Legalize drugs. No good has come from prohibitions of voluntary self actions and associations, and only leads to black markets which lead to crimes against other people to sustain those black markets.

Incarceration should be for those who transgress against others, not social engineering.

Drift, one thing that struck me about that LTTE, is that the writer is suggesting that drug use has increased as a result of I-502. What’s it been? Around seven months now. I think the LTTE writer is getting a little ahead of himself and is more emotion driven that factual.

Just the same, leave government out of all of it. Which also means that in a free country, business, like individuals, should be able to decide what’s best for themselves, including employment decisions.

I like your differentiation of impairment versus non-impairing drug use, off the clock, Drift. Along the lines of alcohol policy for airline pilots.

kn_dalai — August 12, 2013 at 7:23 p.m. ( | suggest removal

A March 27 article from the News Tribune to prove a couple of points.

First, to say someone had no clue the furloughs were coming was indeed completely false. Senator Murray herself was meeting with Ft Lewis employees back on that date to discuss the impact of a pending 22 day furlough. That furlough would have started the week of May 6-10; not in April as the story relates. And they were already too late to implement it. A furlough of this length requires 45 days written notification, and no one had their letters. Buried in the article is that the furlough period had just been cut to 14 days. So, there was a two month reprieve at that time.

Next, the the very first paragraph of the article claims that this 22 day furlough period was going to cost employees a fifth of their pay this year. The second paragraph "sort of" corrects this by saying someone couldn't afford to lost 20% of his income over the next 6 months. Making an annual adjustment, we were then going to lose 10% of our pay. But let's fix that a little more - 6 months would be 26 lost days, not 22. The actual loss was going to be around 8% of the annual salary.

A coworker calculated our actual pay loss due to the final 6 day furlough at 2.3%. That was an improvement from the 4.2% that 11 days was going to cost us. And all of this was well known when Sen Murray was bemoaning the horrors we military civilian employees were being subjected to.

Contrary to popular belief, not all federal employees are taking home 6-figure salaries. That $35K Madigan employee is actually just a little on the low side of average out here away from the Wash DC area. And back at the time of this March article, many were saying it would never happen. The cut from 22 to 14 reinforced that belief for many. I suspect our young Madigan worker was part of that crowd, and got bit in the ass for not bothering to plan for the time off.

But with me, I refuse to accept the tears Sen Murray is spreading all over the landscape bemoaning our plight. She was a principle player of that "Super committee" that was unable to even begin to compromise their way to the deal that would have avoided this situation. She needs to start sharing in the blame - quit pointing fingers.

roger — August 12, 2013 at 7:26 p.m. ( | suggest removal

manthou — August 12, 2013 at 7:21 p.m.

What's even more impressive is those people who don't show up on a people search like Intelius and Spokeo.

kn_dalai — August 12, 2013 at 7:32 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Understood. But you need to stay under wraps when at public gatherings in fire halls if you want to maintain real anonymity - never can tell who was taking pics of people there. Notice how I managed to stay inconspicuous and out of all the photos taken? Years of practice blending into the background.

roger — August 12, 2013 at 7:34 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Anyone else hear of a highway sign being hacked here in Vancouver earlier today? I had someone tell me it was all over the news, but neither paper is carrying it. Comments were "Eric Snowdon is God", and some negative stuff about the NRA and Pres Obama.

roger — August 12, 2013 at 7:42 p.m. ( | suggest removal

roger: I should have worn a baseball hat, like you. :)

manthou — August 12, 2013 at 7:49 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Get to Know Your Freeholder Candidates

Tuesday, August 20, 2013
Time5:30pm until 8:00pm

Latte Da Coffeehouse and Wine Bar
205 E 39th St, Vancouver, Washington 98663

langenthal — August 12, 2013 at 8:16 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Manthou - No baseball hat here - Haven't worn one since my Wash Senators flew the coop back in '72. Now, I do wear that style of cap, with a different logo, but I sort of recall taking it off when I entered the hall. An old habit I was raised to observe.

(Is that an example of obfuscation?)

roger — August 13, 2013 at 5:21 a.m. ( | suggest removal


I got an e-mail invite from Ms. Temple. Also one from Kelly Hinton, wanting to know where I stood on a wide range of topics. And a few "friend" requests from other candidates. I've also got a request from the ASPCA for a donation sitting here - I think I'll send them a check and ignore everyone else for now.

roger — August 13, 2013 at 5:28 a.m. ( | suggest removal

roger: I remember that an electronic sign in Seattle on 520 was hacked in 2012:

"Zombies Ahead" is what it screamed at motorists.

langenthal: Thanks for the announcement of the freeholder meetup next week. We'll need a separate voter's pamphlet just for these brave souls (good on you again, roger). I am in the 3rd District, within walking distance of Latte Da.

manthou — August 13, 2013 at 6:14 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Roger -

I was reading the FB comments on the article "Vancouver Can't Afford to Tend Streets" and I saw your request for information regarding how much of the city's budget has paid into the Waterfront Project roadway improvements. Here's a couple of links (one being a C article) which might answer or lead you to the answers of your question:

goldenoldie — August 13, 2013 at 6:40 a.m. ( | suggest removal

roger — August 12, 2013 at 6:19 p.m.


goldenoldie — August 13, 2013 at 6:42 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Manthou - My google search leads me to believe Latte Da has no parking, other than on the street. Is this correct? If so - ????

roger — August 13, 2013 at 6:45 a.m. ( | suggest removal

kn_dalai — August 12, 2013 at 7:32 p.m.

On sites like Spokeo, you can opt out of their information database.

goldenoldie — August 13, 2013 at 6:47 a.m. ( | suggest removal

The population of the U.S. is about 5% of the world. Of all the people incarcerated on this planet, we house around 25% of them. More than half of federal inmates were arrested on drug charges. Of those, 4 out of 5 are for possession only.

In 2001 Portugal decrimininalized drug use. Addiction is treated as a public health issue, not a crime. To date, the number of addicts has halved. Overdoses and the transfer of drug related diseases have dropped by more than half.

As far as the Drug Free Work Place Act of 1988: The following link is out of Colorado, but I found it informative.

[link text][1]


Drift — August 13, 2013 at 6:47 a.m. ( | suggest removal

roger: Very little parking, if any, in the back. :( Attendees will have to park on the side streets. 39th has limited parking and is busy. Take a look on the map and choose something within walking distance on 38th and below or across Main Street near Safeway.

Not the best choice for the crowd that will be coming. If all the freeholder candidates themselves show: it will be SRO (standing room only).

manthou — August 13, 2013 at 7:37 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Manthou - My google search leads me to believe Latte Da has no parking, other than on the street. Is this correct? If so - ????

From Latte's Facebook page: "don't let the side street paving deter you.... plenty of parking on 39th and on Creston street North of Creston. There is always the gravel lot across the street too. Do not be denied to fulfill your caffeine addiction. See you here."

Drift — August 13, 2013 at 8:09 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Maybe we'll get lucky and have total Republican control in 16'. Increase budget cuts to gov employees working two or three days a week. As long as they give them notice so they can prepare. :) Leave the ankle socks at home.

A few articles concerning this sequester.

nailingit — August 13, 2013 at 8:55 a.m. ( | suggest removal


I saw both of those. The Columbian notes a total $45 mil project, but funding from various sources. I wasn't able to turn up the City's contribution to that amount, and am curious if this project is the reason they don't have the money for the other projects. I'm also seeing a follow up to the article; now they're talking Transportation Benefit District.

roger — August 13, 2013 at 9:14 a.m. ( | suggest removal

A step in the right direction.

///Eric Holder seeks to cut mandatory minimum drug sentences///

Washington (CNN) -- The Justice Department will no longer pursue mandatory minimum sentences for certain low-level, nonviolent drug offenders, Attorney General Eric Holder said Monday, noting the nation is "coldly efficient in jailing criminals," but that it "cannot prosecute or incarcerate" its way to becoming safer.

"Too many Americans go to too many prisons for far too long, and for no truly good law enforcement reason," Holder told the American Bar Association's House of Delegates in San Francisco.

He questioned some assumptions about the criminal justice system's approach to the "war on drugs," saying that excessive incarceration has been an "ineffective and unsustainable" part of it.

Although he said the United States should not abandon being tough on crime, Holder embraced steps to address "shameful" racial disparities in sentencing, the budgetary strains of overpopulated prisons and policies for incarceration that punish and rehabilitate, "not merely to warehouse and forget."

Holder invoked President Barack Obama, saying the two had been talking about the issues and agreed to try to "strike a balance" that clears the way for a "pragmatic" and "commonsense" solutions to enhance public safety and the "public good."

The centerpiece of Holder's plan is to scale back prosecution for certain drug offenders -- those with no ties to large-scale organizations, gangs or cartels. He said they would no longer be charged with offenses that "impose draconian mandatory minimum sentences."

They now "will be charged with offenses for which the accompanying sentences are better suited to their individual conduct, rather than excessive prison terms more appropriate for violent criminals or drug kingpins."

The changes are effective immediately.

Read more @

nailingit — August 13, 2013 at 9:24 a.m. ( | suggest removal

What ever happened to mr_basil_seal? I miss his well researched posts and common sense liberal thought.

mr_basil_seal---where are you?

nailingit — August 13, 2013 at 9:27 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Roger, after posting the two links, I've stumbled across another link which explains where some of the funding has come from..."a State Board." Methinks it's the RTC. Note in the article, the comment from Eric Holmes which mentioned Vancouver still needed to raise another $4 million. This was back in 2008, so maybe a little more digging will show where that $4 million came from:

goldenoldie — August 13, 2013 at 9:32 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Roger, all in all...the City of Vancouver is doing an injustice to the people by claiming they have no funding to upgrade 137th Ave from Fourth Plain to 49th Street. This much-needed roadway for access to Evergreen High School from Orchards should have been improved long before the second "Roundie" was constructed. It's all too obvious to me that this project was done in the manner it was in order to generate new taxable funding for the city...only to have that funding be used elsewhere.

goldenoldie — August 13, 2013 at 9:35 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Roger and Goldie it strikes me as strange also.How can they have the money for the water fronts new work but don't seem to have any to repair or replace existing roads.They are bad all over the city.I did see that they are repaving the south approach to the new 205 overpass on St.Johns.It makes me wonder why that was not done at the same time as the overpass.

timerick — August 13, 2013 at 11:12 a.m. ( | suggest removal

205 or 500, time?

Drift — August 13, 2013 at 11:35 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Tim, when you can figure out the mental capabilities of the people who run the city and their prioritizing of what is needed and what isn't...

Please let me know. I've been trying to figure that out for many, many years!


goldenoldie — August 13, 2013 at 11:35 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Speaking of crappy roads...what the heck are they doing to I-205 and why??? A small car could easily be thrown into another lane by the grooves the state has made on the existing concrete.

Is this their way of slowing down the speeders???

goldenoldie — August 13, 2013 at 11:38 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Sorry Drift it is 500

timerick — August 13, 2013 at noon ( | suggest removal

From today's APIL:

Here is the most recent list from the county, and a list of who dropped out.

Dropped out:

William (Bill) Ryckman – withdrew on 8/12/2013
Julie Olson – withdrew on 8/9/2013
Michael Goodrich – withdrew on 8/9/2013
Steve McGillis – withdrew on 8/12/2013
Ken Poyneer – withdrew on 8/12/2013
Norman Harker – withdrew on 8/12/2013
Debbie Larner – withdrew on 8/12/2013
Newt Rumble – withdrew on 8/12/2013
Loa Ma’o – withdrew on 8/12/2013
Roger L. DeRoos – withdrew on 8/11/2013
D. Michael Heywood – withdrew on 8/12/2013
Sunrise O’Mahoney – withdrew on 8/12/2013
Paul Harris – withdrew on 8/9/2013
Maureen Andrade – withdrew on 8/5/2013
K. Peter Henrickson – withdrew on 8/12/2013
Henry Saathoff – withdrew on 8/12/2013

langenthal — August 13, 2013 at 12:22 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Answers to Kelly Hinton's [K.J. Hinton - Clark County Politics] questions:

langenthal — August 13, 2013 at 1:23 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Newt Rumble??? Is that really a person? Sounds like more of a description for Gingrich.

Sorry Sunrise dropped out, she could have done some good.

hawkeye — August 13, 2013 at 1:47 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Roger ---

Looks like Delavar dropped out.

Michael Delavar
Candidate withdrew on 8/12/2013

langenthal — August 13, 2013 at 2:09 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Hawkeye - Sunrise said early on that if Pat Jollota stays in she would drop. I suspect there was a bit of negotiating.

Langenthal - I got an e-mail this morning saying he dropped. He had called me a couple of days ago to feel me out on where I stand and to tell me how excited he was to run. I got the impression he was hoping I'd drop. I said he needs to look at Dimitry and the guy from the Camas Development/Cascade Planning operation as front runners and talk with them instead.

And - for those who care - the abbreviated version of my statement is: For County Executive, with all admin actions (to include hiring) under that office; For changing election of Commissioners so you only vote for your District; and Against changing the number of Commissioners - I see the current way as providing a balance for the rest of the County to Vancouver City Council; any redistricting would probably be based on population, and has the distinct possibility of upsetting that balance.

roger — August 13, 2013 at 3:04 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Holyc there are some of us in this community that volunteer to make our community a better place.It can be on things like this freeholder position or it can be helping at food banks.veterans groups or any number of things.We ask for no compensation.That is not why we do these things.But I guess it eaiser to set back on your ass and complain about everything than it is to pitch in and try to make a difference.

timerick — August 13, 2013 at 4:30 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Hey timerick, it doesn't matter what that guy says, he doesn't even live on this side of the big ditch. He's one of those P-town weird-o freaks. I think it's time for his colonoscopy, maybe they can find out what's up there and why it's affecting him the way it does. Seems he's pretty angry over something he has nothing to do with. Go figure.

hawkeye — August 13, 2013 at 5:11 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Your right Hawk.It just piss's me when people like that complain about things that others are trying to do to help make this a little better.If your not part of the solution then you are part of the problem.

timerick — August 13, 2013 at 6:36 p.m. ( | suggest removal

nailingit — August 13, 2013 at 9:24 a.m.

Drift, kn_dalai, Hawkeye, luvithere and I covered the topic of drugs and treatment vs. prison yesterday and this morning. Holder's announcement was briefly mentioned.

nailingit — August 13, 2013 at 9:27 a.m.
"What ever happened to mr_basil_seal? I miss his well researched posts and common sense liberal thought."

You can learn more by talking with people who think differently than you. (Though on this topic we all seemed to be (more or less) in agreement.)

roger — August 13, 2013 at 7:23 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Someone mentioned that Jim Moeller and Rob Figley had the same street address, but a different apartment number. That address, 1701 Broadway, is the home of Digital Marketing, a business owned by a couple named Schauer. It's a one story row of shops there; I'm not seeing anything that looks like apartments. Hmmm....

roger — August 13, 2013 at 7:27 p.m. ( | suggest removal

On a lighter note the Slo Poks are having a car show on upper main Saturday I think from 10 to 3.Should be some nice cars.Money is supposed to go to the Hough Foundation.

timerick — August 13, 2013 at 7:58 p.m. ( | suggest removal

roger — August 13, 2013 at 7:27 p.m

Seems that there is a UPS store there. They rent mailboxes. I'm guessing that's the connection.

hawkeye — August 13, 2013 at 8:14 p.m. ( | suggest removal

roger — August 13, 2013 at 7:23 p.m.

"Drift, kn_dalai, Hawkeye, luvithere and I covered the topic of drugs and treatment vs. prison yesterday and this morning. Holder's announcement was briefly mentioned."

I'm....aware of that roger...but thanks anyway. Just thought to contribute with source & clarity.

"You can learn more by talking with people who think differently than you."

My God roger! I hope you're not as patronizing with your would be voters, as you were with this.

Not that it matters, but basil and I disagreed on some stuff. Sheesh. Let some air out...

Anyway, I wonder where he is, that's all.


timerick- Sometimes the cat deserves a good flogging, but this time? I think he was just criticizing those who dropped out of the process once making a commitment. Not those taking part. If I'm understanding him correctly. That's a crapshoot right now. ;)

I'm still not sure this Freeholder election is a great thing either. This whole mess can be laid at the feet of those who supported Madore, as well as those who are jazzed about a recall effort. (does one still exist?) A poorly brewed Tea. It's a political concoction which floated to the top as a result of a conservative community mired in voodoo & magic dust. Everyone else..collateral damage.

You not only get who you vote for, you get the result of a lazy indifferent electorate. A downside to democracy, but democracy nonetheless.

FB comments from some of those God..I wouldn't trust them to sell cookies door to door. I hope it works out.

nailingit — August 13, 2013 at 8:26 p.m. ( | suggest removal

You are right Nail that we get what we voted for.And when we have less than 40% of the people vote than this is what we get.I am willing to at least let the freeholder thing play out.It just might be what this county needs.I hope they come out as people that are not professional office holders.It is good to see people get involved.I hope it works.If 40 or 50 percent don't vote than we deserve what we get.But if you don't vote than don't bitch.

timerick — August 13, 2013 at 8:42 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Why would anyone need to raise $7500 to run for freeholder?

I promise right now that I will not litter the landscape with signs.

roger — August 13, 2013 at 8:50 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Have you read the responses to Hinton's questions?

langenthal — August 13, 2013 at 8:51 p.m. ( | suggest removal

roger: Hawkeye is right. I mail packages all the time from 1701 Broadway. It has been there for years. It has mailboxes inside and Jim Moeller and Rob Figley probably rent mailboxes there.


So The Columbian has an expose in progress about Don "Mr. Environment" Benton? Don is working hard to scrub his image before it comes out? The reporters are doing the pre-employment screening that Madore and Mielke failed to do, it seems. I wonder if he is losing any sleep over it?

He won't be in this job a year from now.

manthou — August 13, 2013 at 9:02 p.m. ( | suggest removal

langenthal -

I just discovered Hinton's website. An eye opener. He/She has a Don't Elect list - I suspect being labeled a Leftist and placed on the list is probably a plus. I guess I'll have to find something on the facebook side to make the required comments on.

roger — August 13, 2013 at 9:12 p.m. ( | suggest removal

langenthal — August 13, 2013 at 8:51 p.m.

Looks like Rob Figley is the smartest politico of the bunch. Keeps his head down and is mute on opinion.

nailingit — August 13, 2013 at 9:17 p.m. ( | suggest removal

timerick — August 13, 2013 at 8:42 p.m.

I have to disagree with you on the importance of the percentage of voters. It makes a difference just why? It’s along the lines of ten times nothin’ is still nothin’.

Nationally, Democrats have pollitically stuffed the ballot box with their immigration reform of ’65, and also their Democrat little motor voter bill. Go apply for public assistance, and have a voter registration stuck in your hand. And that’s supposed to be a better informed voter? Maybe just the opposite.

kn_dalai — August 13, 2013 at 9:47 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Right On Patty!

nailingit — August 13, 2013 at 9:52 p.m. ( | suggest removal

langenthal: I am impressed that you have a copy of Benton's letter and thank you for sharing it. The reporter(s) will have given him a chance to answer to their assertions, if they follow SPJ ethical guidelines and best practices journalism. If he refuses to speak with them, it is his choice and they will note that. He is doing damage control on his terms, which is his right to do, I guess.

Public figures like Benton need to expect such brutal scrutiny from the press.

It would have been much better for Benton to have declined the job offer and he received numerous calls to do so. Does he expect to slide into this crony-greased job free of media scrutiny? He is under a microscope like no other time in his entire political career. I think the public disclosure pressure is also shared equally by Madore and Mielke, too.

roger: Glad you discovered Kelly Hinton's blog. It is not as polished as Lew Waters, but he gives a voice to a certain group of Clark County voters. Ann Rivers wisely distanced herself from him when The Columbian pressed her on his activities in her campaign. He gets a little wild and nasty, but the First Amendment protects his right to express his opinion, afterall. Welcome to the wild and crazy world of public elections. I think those who identified which of Hinton's questions are irrelevant to the Freeholder position are smart.

manthou — August 14, 2013 at 4:39 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Off the topic of local politics: Anyone remember the Kent State shootings 43 years ago?

I do.

I am at Kent State this week and spent some time at the campus memorial and visitor center. I surprised myself with the depth of emotion it elicited from me. You can still see some bullet holes. 4 dead and 9 injured, one paralyzed for life. None of that was on the menu when those parents sent their sons and daughters off to college that year.

Regardless of how you feel about the issues or the student's right to free assembly and protest, not one of them deserved to die or be injured that day (5/4/1970).

I was motivated to do more research and I was happy to see that the Cleveland Plain Dealer completed a recent analysis of audio recorded during the shootings and that the United Nations Human Rights Commission is looking into new evidence of FBI involvement. Did the FBI torch the ROTC building? Did an FBI informant fire the first shot that prompted a command for the National Guard to fire? J Edgar Hoover at his finest and what he did best.

President Obama and Eric Holder have been conspicuously cold and silent about the renewed interest in investigating this 43 year old tragedy, in spite of pleas by victims' family members to be transparent and accountable and support a new investigation.

A recent Huffington Post article talks about the UN's investigation, which should be completed before the end of 2013:

[link text][1]


manthou — August 14, 2013 at 4:56 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Whether the UN has any "jurisdiction" over this Kent State issue, the fact that its Human Rights Committee has posted the following document on its website in advance of their "investigation" keeps the issue alive, publicized and in our government's face.

We should be equally appalled if the National Guard had fired on a group of Tea Party protesters.

It's not the merit of the protest issues, it's the right of all citizens to freely assemble and protest.

How many National Guardsmen lost their lives or were injured that day?

Obama and Holder's silence speaks volumes to me, anyway. Our president does not get good grades from me for his protection of citizen's Constitutional rights. It is probably my biggest disappointment with this Administration. Good for the families for keeping this issue alive, even if their loved ones are long dead:

[link text][1]


manthou — August 14, 2013 at 5:25 a.m. ( | suggest removal

As I recall, Benton sent a letter to the County Board asking for the job. I kind of thought that was staged, but....

If he can prove that there was nothing wrong with the funds from his campaign going to a company he owns a piece of, then the rest of the effort will be seen by his supporters to be exactly what he claims - a smear campaign.

roger — August 14, 2013 at 6:02 a.m. ( | suggest removal

roger: We really don't know went on behind the scenes in that Benton application "request." My guess is that his pals encouraged him to write that letter of interest over a beer and peanuts at Billygans. Unless any of these characters are deposed in a court of law, we will never know the truth (and may not even then).

The Columbian may or may not be showing all the Benton cards they have in their hand with this forthcoming article.

Lou B is a poker player, afterall.

manthou — August 14, 2013 at 6:38 a.m. ( | suggest removal

langenthal — August 13, 2013 at 10:12 p.m.

Yes, it "sounds" like he wants to defend himself but isn't doing a very good job.

He should have never sent out any letter until the article came out. Especially since he doesn't really know what's in it.

The man is a fool.

hawkeye — August 14, 2013 at 6:41 a.m. ( | suggest removal

hawkeye: Elson Strahan learned that lesson well, when he tried to do the same thing before an article came out.

He damaged himself more than the article ever did by bringing up an "issue" that was never published.

Obviously, the reporter questioned him about the topic, but decided not to make it a focus of the article.

manthou — August 14, 2013 at 7:14 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Let me get this out of my system or I might snap in the wrong place. It wouldn't be pretty! I have to do a lot of driving today, about half in P-Town.

It concerns summertime and driving. As most of you know I hate drivers who use their cell phones while driving. In any form. It has been proven that using them is just as bad if not worse than being drunk. Yet I see more and more people using them and worse they aren't hiding it at all. They are flaunting it. Some of these idiots are also smoking at the same time, and hanging their left arm out of the window. One arm driving while using a cell phone is dangerous.

For better than a week now I have had the displeasure of being around these fools. Going 45 MPH on the freeways is not conducive to safe driving practices. Sitting at a stop light after it turns green is another one. Put the GD phone down and pay attention. Around the city and state I venture that I have seen at least a third of the drivers using their cells and from every thing from texting to speaker phone while holding it in their hand.

My granddaughter is getting an education on how many drivers are really out there doing this. She suggested that the fines are way too low. Make it a $1000.00 fine for first time offenders. She went on to suggest that the next time suspend their drivers license for 30 days. I said, off the cuff, would therapy help? She said hell no!! Once an idiot always an idiot. But if you hit them in the pocketbook it will get their attention.

I don't know where she gets it but she gets it. She even has a name for it. It's called 'DIP $#!T DRIVERS MONTH'. She's going far. She turns off her phone and pays attention when she drives.

JohnCasey — August 14, 2013 at 7:40 a.m. ( | suggest removal

One more rant and then it's off to duel with the fools.

If you are smoking in your car then one must assume that you have an ashtray or pop can or something to put the butt out. While driving around I see more and more idiots using the window to get rid of their butts. Since this county is on high alert for fire danger please put it out in your vehicle. And those with high end cars why are you smoking in them in the first place? Can't you just wait till you get where you're going? And one more thing. If you have children with you, you are a brass plated fool if you smoke in the car with them.

JohnCasey — August 14, 2013 at 7:53 a.m. ( | suggest removal

I'm a cigarette smoker (yeah, your diatribe). I don't toss butts to the ground. Period. As a matter of fact, I have a 'thing' about butts laying about. I have a foil lined pocket that I carry in my right hip pocket. If an ash tray isn't available the butt goes in there. And yes, I smoke in my truck.

On another subject:
I just saw on the TV news some drug store outfit is now requiring I.D. to buy nail polish. I was scratching my head, too. Well, it seems the product contains acetone. Acetone, you see, is a chemical used in the concocting of meth.

Yeah, so they want folks to I.D. themselves in order to make the purchase.

Hmm, so is the gallon of acetone I've out in my shop worth more than the five bucks I paid for it at Freddy's?

Ignorance at its finest, I tell ya. Sheesh.

Drift — August 14, 2013 at 8:38 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Err, "nail polish remover." I don't normally bother correcting my mistakes, but in this case the context could matter.

Drift — August 14, 2013 at 8:40 a.m. ( | suggest removal

It can be difficult to look beyond the world we've created for ourselves. It's much what separates those who glom onto conservative thought, as opposed to those who are progressive by nature- imo.

///Sequestration Ushers In A Dark Age For Science In America///

nailingit — August 14, 2013 at 9:18 a.m. ( | suggest removal sweet of Senator Murray - showing her support of infrastructure in our region!!! Such planning! Such a vision!!! Sure, this new crossing fully equipped with loo rail would be such an advancement for Clark County, now wouldn't it!

Or would it?

Is that the reason why you and your supporters (including folks like Moeller and Cleveland just to name a couple) of the once-failed CRC plan are ignoring necessary roadway improvements in order for commerce to flow freely throughout our region so you can make way for the crossing and the Waterfront Project??? Why is it you continue to support the pipe dreams of TriMet and the poor management of roadway funds?

Senator Murray, I once supported your endeavor...when you really cared about the area you call home. I highly question my support of you any more, ma'am.

goldenoldie — August 14, 2013 at 9:19 a.m. ( | suggest removal

What do you get when a Southern Libertarian runs for office.....(open ended joke)

Red on Red crime. 14' is shaping up quite well.

///SC state senator taking on Graham///

State Sen. Lee Bright announced his candidacy Tuesday for the GOP nomination for the U.S. Senate, calling incumbent Republican U.S. Sen. Lindsey Graham “a community organizer for the Muslim Brotherhood.”

“During the (congressional) recess, when I would hope that he would be around folks in South Carolina, getting their feelings on so many issues that affect their lives, he has instead chosen to take his time to be a community organizer for the Muslim Brotherhood and that concerns me,” Bright told supporters in a conference call. “He needs to spend more time listening to what the brothers in South Carolina have to say.”

At the request of President Barack Obama, Graham last week visited Egypt with U.S. Sen. John McCain, R-Ariz., to help calm things down after the Egyptian military’s recent overthrow of President Mohammed Morsi, a leader of the Muslim Brotherhood, a political and religious organization that wants the government to operate under Muslim law.


Bright attacked that alliance Tuesday, calling on Graham to “repudiate” McCain for his comments calling conservative Sens. Ted Cruz of Texas and Rand Paul of Kentucky, and U.S. Rep. Justin Amash of Michigan, “wacko birds.” McCain, for his part, recently told the New Republic magazine that Graham is “like a son to me.”

First elected to the state Senate in 2008, Bright has become one of the Legislature’s leading Libertarian voices – a mantle Bright said Tuesday he would carry to the U.S. Senate if elected. For example, Bright said Tuesday that he had “a real problem with” security screenings at airports, arguing airlines – not federal employees – should decide whether to screen passengers, leaving passengers with “a choice of whether we get on that airplane or not.”


In the state Senate, Bright has filed legislation that would make it a crime to enforce the new federal health care law in South Carolina and exempt S.C. guns from federal regulation. He recently gained national attention when he advocated for South Carolina to issue its own currency.

Read more here:

nailingit — August 14, 2013 at 9:53 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Decidedly biased-Refreshingly honest.

AUGUST 26, 2004

We’re Not in Lake Wobegon Anymore


~Something has gone seriously haywire with the Republican Party. Once, it was the party of pragmatic Main Street businessmen in steel-rimmed spectacles who decried profligacy and waste, were devoted to their communities and supported the sort of prosperity that raises all ships. They were good-hearted people who vanquished the gnarlier elements of their party, the paranoid Roosevelt-haters, the flat Earthers and Prohibitionists, the antipapist antiforeigner element. The genial Eisenhower was their man, a genuine American hero of D-Day, who made it OK for reasonable people to vote Republican. He brought the Korean War to a stalemate, produced the Interstate Highway System, declined to rescue the French colonial army in Vietnam, and gave us a period of peace and prosperity, in which (oddly) American arts and letters flourished and higher education burgeoned—and there was a degree of plain decency in the country. Fifties Republicans were giants compared to today’s. Richard Nixon was the last Republican leader to feel a Christian obligation toward the poor.

In the years between Nixon and Newt Gingrich, the party migrated southward down the Twisting Trail of Rhetoric and sneered at the idea of public service and became the Scourge of Liberalism, the Great Crusade Against the Sixties, the Death Star of Government, a gang of pirates that diverted and fascinated the media by their sheer chutzpah, such as the misty-eyed flag-waving of Ronald Reagan who, while George McGovern flew bombers in World War II, took a pass and made training films in Long Beach. The Nixon moderate vanished like the passenger pigeon, purged by a legion of angry white men who rose to power on pure punk politics. “Bipartisanship is another term of date rape,” says Grover Norquist, the Sid Vicious of the GOP. “I don’t want to abolish government. I simply want to reduce it to the size where I can drag it into the bathroom and drown it in the bathtub.” The boy has Oedipal problems and government is his daddy.

The party of Lincoln and Liberty was transmogrified into the party of hairy-backed swamp developers and corporate shills, faith-based economists, fundamentalist bullies with Bibles, Christians of convenience, freelance racists, misanthropic frat boys, shrieking midgets of AM radio, tax cheats, nihilists in golf pants, brownshirts in pinstripes, sweatshop tycoons, hacks, fakirs, aggressive dorks, Lamborghini libertarians, people who believe Neil Armstrong’s moonwalk was filmed in Roswell, New Mexico, little honkers out to diminish the rest of us, Newt’s evil spawn and their Etch-A-Sketch president, a dull and rigid man suspicious of the free flow of information and of secular institutions, whose philosophy is a jumble of badly sutured body parts trying to walk. Republicans: The No.1 reason the rest of the world thinks we’re deaf, dumb and dangerous.~

nailingit — August 14, 2013 at 10:33 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Manthou ---

I believe I sent this Facebook link earlier.

Ron Goodman
The objective of this group is to promote good governance through knowledge and change (action) by focusing on solutions and to be a place where political animals of all stripes can feel safe at the watering hole; the related pages allow free declaration and debate about the prevailing problems.
For facts, resources, and events post in this group.

langenthal — August 14, 2013 at 11:57 a.m. ( | suggest removal


I'm linking to the Wiki narrative on Kent State; it seems reasonably close to what we were hearing back in PA.

I've always had a hard time with this event because I saw both sides of it. I agreed with the anti-Vietnam view, but not the insults many of the protestors were directing to the soldiers - that was my family and friends, and most who I knew had no desire to be there.

Kent State was NOT a crowd of peaceful protestors; this was one of the "angrier" groups that ever assembled to protest the war. They rioted in the town the first night, burned down the ROTC building, and threw rocks at the National Guardsmen during every confrontation leading up to the shootings.

No, I don't condone the shootings - especially the two who were just passing by on their way to class. But I have a bit less sympathy for the other two, who were active members of the protest. We don't know what they were shouting at the Guardsmen, but I know I heard some pretty nasty shit that pissed me off when the troops were called out at a couple of protests in the DC area. And I imagine one can only tolerate being stoned for so long. You want to play with the devil and you just might get burned.

roger — August 14, 2013 at 12:01 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Manthou I don't condone the shootings either.But that was such a crazy time in the 60's and 70's.I was in Viet Nam at that time and our feeling was so what.We had just endured Jane Fonda in North Viet Nam.Most of us had had enough.We had not signed up to be killed or maimed.Our land clearing company had not seen hot food or clean water to bath in for over a month.Everything we heard from home was how we were hated for what we were doing.At 18 years old we had no idea about the politics of that war.Nor did we much care.We had been trained to do what we were told no questions asked.Was it right no not the way our government handled it.Most of us did not have the money or the deferments to avoid the military.And most people hated us the soldiers for being there.That is one reason I stayed for 2 tours.I didn't want to come home to the hate.I am so glad we don't treat our soldiers like that now.

timerick — August 14, 2013 at 1:23 p.m. ( | suggest removal

JohnCasey — August 14, 2013 at 7:40 a.m

Dude! You crack me up. Seriously, are we related? I swear, I can ALWAYS tell when someone is going to throw a cig out of the car window. Last year, when it was like this, really dry and all, I was following this woman down the road and she threw hers out of her window, lit! I saw the sparks. I kept following her to her home. When she got out, I yelled at her and asked her if she was trying to start a fire. Then I told her she was lucky I wasn't a cop because the fine is over $300.

Then there was the time a few years ago when I was sitting on an off ramp from I-5 and the light had just changed to red and this guy tried to be sneaky and drop hid lit gig next to his car. I got out of my car and picked it up and threw it back into his car onto the passenger side floor while saying, "hey, you dropped this". He pulled over really fast and cursed me as I drove off. I was laughing my butt off.

I swear, if you gotta smoke, you need to have a place to put it, safely.

hawkeye — August 14, 2013 at 2:13 p.m. ( | suggest removal

roger — August 14, 2013 at 12:01 p.m

Words, no matter how 'nasty shit' sounding is not a cause (and certainly not a reason) to open fire and randomly shoot into a crowd of UNARMED students. Being less sympathetic to the dead because of the words they may have said before dying is your business, but is startling to read, none the less.

jacjak — August 14, 2013 at 2:15 p.m. ( | suggest removal

wow, fat fingered that one. Meant to say "his lit cig"

hawkeye — August 14, 2013 at 2:15 p.m. ( | suggest removal


patty murray has the unofficial rep of being "the dumbest member of congress".

DeeLittle — August 14, 2013 at 7:27 p.m. ( | suggest removal


were you there? alive at that time in our history?

roger was,

it's one thing to sit in comfort and safety and judging the actions of others. it's far less comfortable to have your opinions formed by having been there.

we 60s-genners know what it was like to grow up during that time.

we'd just come from fighting two world wars. we were rebuilding our families and way of life that had been cut short by the needs of that war.

russia wanted us dead and acted on that desire.

we went to war in korea, to keep the soviet union from having enough power to attack us.

russia tried to arm cuba with nuclear weapons capable of reaching our mainland. remember kennedy's embargo? our navy made a 'line in the water' and intended to blow up anything approaching it.

russia's cargo ships were sailing straight for it.

i watched the news every day. i waited. practiced 'drop and cover'.

the only reason the cargo ships turned around was because of our ability to inflict fatal damage to russia in retaliation.

korea was ended by a decree signed by the us and korea. ta-da! two koreas; north and south. which style of government do you wanna live under btw; capitalism or communism?

same thing with viet nam. 18 year olds are allowed to vote because of that war: We the People said it was wrong that a kid can be killed in a war but not vote. another upheaval added to the mix.

kennedy ingeniously re-directed the nation's mindset from war to exploration, using the nation's already-operating war machine to create rockets instead of bombs. we aimed for the moon, and made it. a quantum change for the entire world came from that.

DeeLittle — August 14, 2013 at 7:32 p.m. ( | suggest removal


don't forget, during all this, our country was engaged in the Civil War part 2. EVERY PERSON IN THE COUNTRY was involved in that. every street, town, county and state was in upheaval over this issue. by far, the population demanded equal rights, but there were dissenters; racist, violent, organized and armed.

there was much blood shed to finally kill institutional racism.

all during this time, we had saul alinsky trying to destroy our government and put in place some kind of socialist cum communist cabal.

he found rich soil for his terrorist plans in the halls of our highest institutions for learning. btw, he and his fellow travelers are succeeding; being subversive, that war never ended.

riots were everywhere. for the 1st time in our history, people (i claim they were ALL college students) reviled the military. we got hanoi jane pics without any formal repercussions.

women were demanding equality in the workplace. equal work for equal pay. and that unpleasant little item, abortion on demand. GREAT upheaval.

now kent state demonstrations. it was a mishmash...protests against viet nam, for civil rights, pro-abortion. it was a volatile mix into which alinsky seeded a genned-up mob of anti-american, alinsky-trained subversives.

the rest is open to personal opinion. being of the 'america right or wrong' persuasion, i side with the national guard. you get a kid fresh outta boot camp, give him a gun and tell him to keep the demonstration from becoming a riot then put him where he's spat upon, screamed at, called vile names and threatened by the mob, keep him from getting sleep and keep throwing rocks at him, you're not gonna get a happy outcome.

forgive the length of my reply, but this is a universal problem with the population; making decisions based on a sound-bite here, a scoured-for-approval factoid there.

you gotta be really skeptical about ANY opinion that demonizes one side while deifying the other. nothing's that black and white.

DeeLittle — August 14, 2013 at 7:33 p.m. ( | suggest removal

JacJak - I said I didn't condone the shootings. Thrown rocks may not be comparable to bullets, but they're still a weapon. We're raised to believe we're protected and can get away with these kinds of actions. Every once in a while that thinking backfires.

I forget if it was Huey Newton or Bobby Seale - cofounders of the Black Panthers - One of them noted after the Chicago Seven trial that those guys were just dilettantes pretending to be revolutionaries - then they got to run and hide behind the protection of the law. Meanwhile, the real revolutionaries were the black kids being beaten by the police every day. Etc etc etc. I've always believed that Kent State was fueled by a group that was trying to prove they were just as bad ass as the Panthers. Columbia was a lot of civil disobedience and building occupations, but this was the first and only college campus protest I can remember where the students started the violence and repeatedly attacked the authorities.

roger — August 14, 2013 at 9:18 p.m. ( | suggest removal

you gotta be really skeptical about ANY opinion that demonizes one side while deifying the other. nothing's that black and white.

DeeLittle — August 14, 2013 at 7:33 p.m


No, I was not there...
But, yes, I'm old enough to have that time and era as part of my life. Yes, I've got a small amount of skin in the game that you seem to think is exclusive. My favorite cousin's name is on the Wall in Washington Park and Constitution Garden in Washington DC. He was only 2 yrs my senior. Families paid too. Yes, I was married to a Viet Vet, with all that it entailed. And yes, married again, with 27 yrs army, retired. So, while you deserve to be thanked for your service, and certainly entitled to your opinions and your personal sensitivity about Vietnam, be at least a little open to the idea it does not negate the idea that outrage about shooting unarmed students was somehow only felt by those that the war was directly effecting.

jacjak — August 14, 2013 at 9:41 p.m. ( | suggest removal

"Time will tell what will come of Laurel's struggle to get justice for her sister and the other victims. And justice for Laurel means that the government will one day acknowledge the truth." -- from manthou's link above at 4:56 a.m.

The writer may be right. But of course, you realise that is an opinion piece, and that the writer has assumed that there has been an injustice. Just why do you advocate for fair journalism, manthou, but then keep linking to this opinion stuff. Anyway?

Let’s compare that to the Ruby Ridge killing. You know, that “white seperatist” which the MSM kept calling him. Just what is it that made him a “white seperatist” anyway. One person tells two. Then two people tell four. Then four people tell eight. You think maybe leftist thinking, biased journalists, so called, run with that? I sure do.

So their 14 y.o. son is shot in the back and killed.

Weaver’s unarmed wife is outside their little shack like house and an FBI sniper blows her head off.

Something tells me the well balanced Left has never been too upset about this kind of government abuse, despite what you people like to think about yourselves.

kn_dalai — August 14, 2013 at 9:46 p.m. ( | suggest removal

... be at least a little open to the idea it does not negate the idea that outrage about shooting unarmed students was somehow only felt by those that the war was directly effecting.
jacjak — August 14, 2013 at 9:41 p.m.

JAC: glad to. i responded as i did because of the 'versions' taught in universities. as for VN vets, i put them a rung just a little above WWII soldiers. i believe the totality of their experience trumps our "greatest generation".

after all, WWII came home to parades. VN vets were spat on and branded baby-killers. VN vets were drafted, for a war they probably didn't support, while the higher income ones were deferred. they saw things no normal human can without being seriously damaged. they were ordered to leave soldiers in the field upon evacuation. lousy damn commanders.

ROGER: ahhh....ruby ridge. one of those FBI hunting expeditions. i respect the department and believe in its mission, but they've got blood on their legend they will never rub away.

DeeLittle — August 14, 2013 at 10:29 p.m. ( | suggest removal

roger-You'd be better off just sticking to a your one hundred word statement. This isn't the first time you've gone off the rails with this sort of thing. (not meaning to patronize nor chastise-well maybe chastise;) Just two that come to mind...remember your call to immediately and publicly execute the makers of that weird movie you believed was behind Benghazi; as well as your unrepentant calls for our Government to dictate the number of children that can be birthed in American families in order to curb population growth. Those in violation.....

And now speaking about the murder of unarmed protesters..."No, I don't condone the shootings - especially the two who were just passing by on their way to class. But I have a bit less sympathy for the other two, who were active members of the protest."

Alrighty then.

Your opponents might start chanting "Kent State-Kent State" at the FH Latte Da Coffeehouse gathering. Not unlike Pacino shouting ATTICA! ATTICA! in Dog Day Afternoon.

"And I imagine one can only tolerate being stoned for so long."

One does need sleep.

nailingit — August 14, 2013 at 11:08 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Dee - kn_dalai brought up Ruby Ridge, not me. But I do like the comparison made there. One could also bring Waco and the Branch Davidians into the conversation.

Nails - Yes, I do believe in population control. Overpopulation is the real culprit when we get to discussing diminishing resources. Enforced sterilization may be a part of the solution. Does someone truly have the right to bring an unlimited number of children into the world? (Gee - I'd think those who advocate an uber Liberal world view would support this solution - after all, it does involve forcing one's values on another.) The rest of your post makes little sense. You were correct; sleep is necessary.

roger — August 15, 2013 at 5:31 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Well Roger, I am with you on population control. We are reaching the point of no return quickly.I am not convinced that forced methods are the right way, however. I am a firm believer in education, education, education. And birth control. Definitely birth control. Popping out the babies en masse due to religious reasons or due to sheer ignorance abut birth control methods or lack of access to them is unsustainable. Diminishing resources lead to bloodshed and struggle. Time to put a stop to the human explosion.

luvithere — August 15, 2013 at 5:53 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Luvithere - Agreed that voluntary methods of birth control should be first, and made available (for free) to all. But for those who refuse to comply?

Pat Buchanan wrote a couple of books on this topic. His basic message was that the white race is losing ground in overall population percentages because we practice birth control and the others don't. He wanted white people to start having larger families. There are all kinds of problems with his arguments, but there is one bit of truth to be found in them. The modernized Western nations (and a few others like China, who he conveniently forgets to mention) have recognized the problem and are trying to do something through education and (usually) personal choice. That concern doesn't exist in many parts of the world, however - more children are seen as necessary for a number of reasons. Should we try to control growth there, and how?

roger — August 15, 2013 at 6:30 a.m. ( | suggest removal

kn_dalai: I do know the difference between OpEd and a straight journalistic news article.

I did say that I would be equally upset if our National Guard had fired on a group of Tea Party protesters.

I cannot equate Ruby Ridge with Kent State, though. And I have criticized our government's strong-arm tactics and civil liberties violations for anyone: that includes our most marginalized and hated alleged criminals.

Just want to be clear.

We'll see what the UN Human Rights Committee determines before the end of this year. Its Kent State findings may not have any legal teeth to them, but they keep shining the light, bright and harsh, on a very dark time in our country's history.

timerick: My husband is a Viet Nam vet, Navy. I hate the way our vets were treated during that time and never participated in demonizing them.

It is the government that gets my suspicions and scrutiny. Even with Kent State, the allegation is that the FBI was in the thick of that slaughter, manipulating its desired outcome that day and that our National Guardsmen (no women, I think) were victims as well.

jacjak: Well-stated.

manthou — August 15, 2013 at 6:31 a.m. ( | suggest removal

nalingit: I appreciate seeing the link about the sequestration's negative effects on scientific research.

Close to home and to my own political heart is exemplified in this recent WW article about Oregon's Federal public defenders and the impact sequestration has had on justice. I am sure the same thing is happening in WA and other states, as well.

No one likes a public defender until their family member needs one.

[link text][1]


manthou — August 15, 2013 at 6:53 a.m. ( | suggest removal

roger- Is China your model? It's amazing to me that you would have our system of Democracy take this type of course. And your ideas are predicated on the white race losing ground??

Me thinks there's deep seeded stuff here.

Again-I'd stick to your 100 word statement. Maybe you're not aware, but you are seriously "bringing the crazy".

nailingit — August 15, 2013 at 7:04 a.m. ( | suggest removal

nailingit: Forgot to draw attention to the fact that Andrea Damewood is the journalist who wrote the WW article I posted at 6:53 am about the Oregon Federal public defender cuts due to sequestration.

She is going places with her skill and I think the C and the WW are good stops along her promising career path. She exposes issues with fairness and accuracy. Does not appear biased.

manthou — August 15, 2013 at 7:08 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Waco and Ruby Ridge had nothing to do with college students being murdered while protesting the Vietnam war.

The freedoms some of us are willing to give up are astounding.

Sometimes one has to stand back and



nailingit — August 15, 2013 at 7:15 a.m. ( | suggest removal

roger: Between undergraduate and graduate school, I worked as an admissions clerk in a major US hospital. The hospital was in the South. This was in the early 1970's.

Anecdotally, I can say that I checked in many women over the age of 18 who were cognitively impaired and wards of the state for full hysterectomies on a healthy uterus.


Convenience for the caregivers: This freed them from having to deal with the monthly "cleanliness" issues.

Forced sterilization: The women would never carry a pregnancy.

The state, years later, had to compensate these women and apologize after a class action suit was filed on their behalf.

Our country has evolved and the laws protect against stripping self-determination away from its citizens. Involuntary anything (incarceration, institutional commitment, medication, medical procedures) are possible, but only after strict judicial proceedings have been observed. Granted, these proceedings vary depending on the court and the attorneys involved, but still..............

Remember, when you withhold constitutional protections from some, you reduce them for all.

manthou — August 15, 2013 at 7:30 a.m. ( | suggest removal

manthou — August 15, 2013 at 6:53 a.m.

Good article manthou. The powers that be seem to agree sequestration is a bad idea. All the House has to do is cast a vote and repeal it.

The negative effects of Sequester, both monetarily and human suffering, will take years to right the course and recover from. We're moving into the snowballing stage I'm afraid.

Unfortunately, we all will be suffering the effects of the 2010 election for years to come. Until we remove those who were elected whose mission it is to obstruct and stop American Government/Democracy from functioning, these seem to be the cards we're dealt.

I believe in the long run our nation will be the better for it. Live and learn. (hopefully)

nailingit — August 15, 2013 at 7:38 a.m. ( | suggest removal

My favorite folk-rocker, godfather of grunge, Mr. Young, at Farm Aid in 2010, keeping the Kent State tragedy in the public eye:

[link text][1]


manthou — August 15, 2013 at 7:39 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Well Manthou, I agree, as stated earlier, that I do not like forced population control. But I fully believe we need to start addressing the issue of overpopulation on a worldwide level, with eyes wide open. There's just too many of us.Doesn't matter how you look or where you live.

luvithere — August 15, 2013 at 7:51 a.m. ( | suggest removal

luvithere: When we can figure out how to do that, in this country at least, without violating civil rights of citizens, then.........

How do you do that?

Do you legislate Draconian laws?

Shouldn't we rely on voluntary birth control measures? Make it safe and affordable? Birth control is a choice, not a mandate, in this country.

What are reasonable options that don't destroy individual liberties?

manthou — August 15, 2013 at 8:07 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Let's add some good ol' fashioned statistics to the emotional debate:

"Population in the world is currently growing at a rate of around 1.14% per year. The average population change is currently estimated at around 80 million per year.

Annual growth rate reached its peak in the late 1960s, when it was at 2% and above. The rate of increase has therefore almost halved since its peak of 2.19 percent, which was reached in 1963.

The annual growth rate is currently declining and is projected to continue to decline in the coming years. Currently, it is estimated that it will become less than 1% by 2020 and less than 0.5% by 2050."

Check out more data at this site:

[link text][1]


manthou — August 15, 2013 at 8:12 a.m. ( | suggest removal


I reread your thoughts on Buchanan and my takeaway was a bit different-having said that...

I've asked you before how you would implement & enforce controlled population laws in America given our system of Democracy, but you would never detail anything. How about now?

"(Gee - I'd think those who advocate an uber Liberal world view would support this solution - after all, it does involve forcing one's values on another."

Now that you've positioned yourself to run for a political office, statements like these should be explained somewhat. What do you mean? What is an "uber Liberal world view" exactly. And how would an "uber Liberal world view" involve our Government controlling what we do with our bodies. Politically speaking, it certainly seems to be quite the opposite today.

"The rest of your post makes little sense."

Sure it does. Review your face Book posts at the time when our Embassy in Benghazi was attacked.

nailingit — August 15, 2013 at 8:38 a.m. ( | suggest removal

manthou — August 15, 2013 at 7:39 a.m.

I just viewed your link. It doesn't get any better. Neil's still reminding us what Democracy is about.

Neil Young/Jennifer Granholm in 16'!

Maybe we're ready for a "Top Down" approach to governing, and elect a pair of 'Canucks' from up North.

Now there's a law for the House to repeal. :)

nailingit — August 15, 2013 at 9:08 a.m. ( | suggest removal

government actions to curb population-

limit the number of dependents on tax return to 2
charge tuition for more than 2 kids in public schools
free, unrestricted birth control
educate kids about over-population

mrd — August 15, 2013 at 9:08 a.m. ( | suggest removal

mrd: Interesting ideas at 9:08 am.

In addition to educating kids about the problems associated with over-population, we need quality, evidence-based education on the wide range of birth control methods available (not simply abstinence).

Some people will cry "social engineering" on the tax credit limit and "discrimination" on the public school tuition, but the controversy is worth a discussion of a variety of options. :)

manthou — August 15, 2013 at 9:32 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Egyptian government killing civilian protesters. It continues.

Some of the photojournalists who are lucky enough to still be alive (it is reported that many journalists have died trying to cover this story) have produced these stunning photos (from The Atlantic):

[link text][1]


manthou — August 15, 2013 at 10:03 a.m. ( | suggest removal

mrd — August 15, 2013 at 9:08 a.m

Some ideas worth considering. Off the top, three out of four somewhat stellar. I'm not on board with "charge tuition for more than 2 kids in public schools" though.

If it was personal income based tuition and implemented after a period of time, say twenty years, and wasn't designed to be onerous, perhaps.

Think of the many great Americans born into large families with less than adequate wealth.

manthou's post @ 8:12 is more than telling. There's a lot of false info floating around, to include conspiracy theories on the matter.

Education and accessible birth control methods are working. Of which many on the right are diminishing with new found laws undermining both.

I guess it's that standing order from God; "As for you, be fruitful and multiply; Populate the earth abundantly and multiply in it."

nailingit — August 15, 2013 at 10:16 a.m. ( | suggest removal

I think The Columbian should scrape up the money for a public editor or ombudsman, NOT because I think the journalism it produces is weak or unethical. I think it would show that it is transparent and can take what it asks of others: being open and accountable to the public interest it serves.

Does any NW newspaper have an ombudsman or woman? The NYT does. Is that about all now?

I just read a fantastic open letter to Amazon's Jeff Bezos (he just bought the Washington Post, for those who don't know) from the Post's former ombudsman, Patrick Pexton.

It should be circulated far and wide to all editors and publishers because the advice (beyond fire Jennifer Rubin) is universal:

[link text][1]


manthou — August 15, 2013 at 10:41 a.m. ( | suggest removal

manthou — August 15, 2013 at 8:07 a.m

Manthou, I stated earlier that I am all for education, free access to birth control, education, access,...
I am not for anything forced whatsoever.

I think we need a national open debate on population growth and control, at times I feel it is like the elephant in the room. The forbidden topic.

The growth rate might have slowed down, but if the base is too large to start with....

luvithere — August 15, 2013 at 11:10 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Speaking of Ruby Ridge.....

A Republican activist who has been a conservative radio talk show host in Michigan’s Upper Peninsula is scheduled to plead Sept. 3 in Brown County Circuit Court to charges stemming from a weapons disturbance involving his estranged wife.

Douglas Sedenquist, 51, of Escanaba, Mich., is accused of holding police officers at bay with a high-powered rifle while threatening suicide on March 3 in the East Town Mall parking lot. Along with that felony charge, he also is charged with misdemeanor disorderly conduct and with sending a computer message to his estranged wife in which he threatened to kill himself. He faces four years imprisonment and $12,000 in fines.


His estranged wife told police they had been married for 22 years but separated in July 2012 after he beat up their two teenage daughters, the complaint says.

The Delta County Republican Party of Michigan identifies Sedenquist on its Facebook page as its state committee representative. Sedenquist’s Twitter account identifies him as a Christian, father, radio talk show co-host, labor freedom advocate, Delta County GOP Vice Chair and Michigan GOP state committeeman.

Sedenquist and another man hosted a talk show up until the spring on a now defunct radio station in Michigan’s Upper Peninsula. They continue to run a political website with radio interview-style podcasts. Postings by him on various websites reveal him to be an advocate for right-to-work legislation, Second Amendment rights and other conservative issues.

nailingit — August 15, 2013 at 11:30 a.m. ( | suggest removal

luvit- What is your biggest concern about trimming the population as to how it pertains to statistical data. Is it environmentally based, food sourced, medically driven etc. I'm not sure with the thought process behind it.


We don't have enough music in here since the forum format changed.

Speaking of great Americans coming from large, poor families, one of the most inspirational songs of our time-imo.

Maybe we should all wear black.

nailingit — August 15, 2013 at 11:32 a.m. ( | suggest removal

mrd — August 15, 2013 at 9:08 a.m.

I say eliminate the child tax credit all together. No more tax breaks just because you can pop out a rug rat. That credit is old and was invented when we were trying to populate the U.S., it's not necessary any longer. And start educating people, of course there is going to be HUGE opposition from the churches that want you to have as many "church members" as possible but if we hit them in the pocketbook, (where it counts) things might slow down a little.

hawkeye — August 15, 2013 at 2:27 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Don Benton cronyism alert: Did he recently hire "citizen activist" Chris Clifford to a Clark County Environmental Services job? This guy lives in Renton.

Here is a 1993 Seattle Times profile article about Clifford, who eventually hooked up to support Senator Pam Roach.

Tell me this is a dream. How is he getting away with this.

langenthal: Can you confirm? I just ran into someone at Clark County in the know who says this guy is now a Clark County employee of Mr. Benton:

[link text][1]


manthou — August 15, 2013 at 3:01 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Sorry, Nails, but I'm having a major disconnect with your position on the population control subject. The Liberal argument for so many topics, such as paying for abortions using Medicaid or paying for public transportation projects, is that we should do what's best for society as a whole. For some reason you're opposed and sound more like a "free will" Libertarian on this one. ????

mrd - Those are good ideas for this country. But unless the rest of the world is going along with the plan, will this accomplish anything? (Same argument as being used with the coal/oil shipping operation.) As luvithere notes, we're already overpopulated (2-3 billion, per some "experts"), so does just slowing down the growth rate do enough?

roger — August 15, 2013 at 3:03 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Senator Pam Roach hired Chris Clifford as her "aide" and "investigator" in 2008.

Senator Roach was censured by her colleagues awhile back. Peter Callaghan, a very respected journalist at the News Tribune, writes this opinion about Pam Roach:

[link text][1]


Chris Clifford's activism has been effective in the way Tim Eyman's is, I guess.

Did Benton bring him here? Why? Has Clifford moved here from Renton, or will he be a long-distance, sometime-absent employee?

Inquiring minds want to know......

We can start calling Clark County "Dysfunction Junction."

manthou — August 15, 2013 at 3:24 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Welcome to Clark County Environmental Services Department, Chris Clifford.

Besides being a citizen activist (some say a damned good one), what are YOUR qualifications for the job? Were you asked to apply? Who were the other candidates?

A blog post with some of Mr. Clifford's litigation accomplishments. If he helps keep his boss honest, good for him. If he joins many of us in calling for open government meetings, good.

Wish him well, folks, as I have a feeling Clark County politics just got a little bit more interesting with his hire.

[link text][1]


manthou — August 15, 2013 at 3:53 p.m. ( | suggest removal

I get it: Chris Clifford was hired to go after the state's Ecology Department with the same vengeance and tenacity he has shown with other government agencies in the past (just ask the City of Seattle; Port of Seattle).

Mielke never liked the sanctions placed on Clark County by the Department of Ecology for refusing to follow Federal storm water guidelines.

Benton, Madore, and Mielke wanted a fighter and they got one who won't let go.

But, what does he know about the job he was hired to do?

If we want to start paying for citizen activists, sign me up and a whole bunch of others: Debbie Peterson, Larry Patella, Carolyn Crain, Steve Herman, Sunrise O'Mahoney, roger, nailingit, hawkeye, timerick, luvithere: hey put us on the payroll, too.

manthou — August 15, 2013 at 4:06 p.m. ( | suggest removal

nailingit — August 15, 2013 at 11:32 a.m

What's my biggest concern?? All of the above. Too many humans, finite resources.

If the base is big, then a 10% increase means a big number. If the base is small, the 10% increase is smaller.
Been doing numbers all day long, cannot simplify stats any more today. :)

Either way, there's too many and we grow at an alarming rate. Got to stop that.

Nails, I really don't understand what you have against the topic of pop growth. Are you all for everybody just having ten kids?

luvithere — August 15, 2013 at 4:17 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Hawkeye do you mean I am to old to populate?I think I still remember how.Manthou do we get to negotiate a six figure salary?If we do count me in.

timerick — August 15, 2013 at 4:37 p.m. ( | suggest removal

nailingit — August 15, 2013 at 11:30 a.m.

You complain about a state committee nobody but you are strangely silent on former U.S. Congressman Jesse Jackson Jr. who was sentenced to 30 months in Federal prison for fraud. If you care about corruption it shouldn't matter what letter follows the name.

frobert — August 15, 2013 at 4:37 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Here's a report on the opening prayers/invocations at BoCC meetings. I copied from Clark County Citizens for Good Governance and George Vartanian.

2013 Invocations Report
By Religious Category
Religious Category: Bahá'í
Spiritual Assembly of the Bahá'ís of Vancouver Dave Morris, Chairperson 8/13/2013
Total number of Bahá'í invocations thus far: 1 4.76%
Religious Category: Christian
Clark County Chaplaincy (emergency service) Chad Zoller, Chaplain 3/26/2013
Mt. Pleasant Baptist Church Jerry Keen, Chaplain 4/2/2013
Crossroads Community Church Bill Ritchie, Pastor 4/23/2013
City Harvest Church Jan Stahl, Deacon 4/30/2013
Xchange Church Bill Smith, Pastor 5/7/2013
Friends of the Carpenter Homeless Ministries Duane Sich, Executive Director 5/14/2013
Calvary Community Church Jeremy Carmichael, Lead Pastor 5/21/2013
The Living Well Church Brian Daehn, Pastor 5/28/2013
Trinity Baptist Church Olin Brock, Pastor 6/4/2013
Open House Ministries Aaron Kano, Chaplain 6/25/2013
King's Church Dr. Greg Romine, Pastor 7/2/2013
Eutychus Ministries Ronnie Brandon, Chaplain 7/9/2013
Outpost Association, Inc. Lloyd Knecht, Unknown Title 7/16/2013
Eutychus Ministries Tim Crownover, Pastor 7/23/2013
Saint Paul Lutheran Church Christopher Nolte, Pastor 7/30/2013
Total number of Christian invocations thus far: 15 71.43%
Religious Category: Jewish
Institution Unknown George Golden, Rabbi 4/9/2013
Total number of Jewish invocations thus far: 1 4.76%
Religious Category: Messianic Jewish
Rehobath Messianic Congregation David Sumner, Pastor 6/18/2013
Total number of Messianic Jewish invocations thus far: 1 4.76%
Religious Category: Moment of Silence
*Moment of Silence* , None 4/16/2013
*Moment of Silence* , None 6/11/2013
*Moment of Silence* , None 8/6/2013
Total number of Moment of Silence invocations thus far: 3 14.29%
Total Invocation Opportunities thus far in 2013: 21
Thursday, August 15, 2013 Page 1 of 1

langenthal — August 15, 2013 at 5:31 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Manthou at 3:01 pm

Hmm. Clifford has already left a comment on a Columbian article:

And from the Clark County Environmental Services website (edited):

Resource Policy and Planning
Clean Water
Clifford, Chris, Program Coordinator
Phone: (360) 397-2121 ext. 5968

pfaffmachine — August 15, 2013 at 5:32 p.m. ( | suggest removal

langenthal: I love this type of citizen watchdoggery! I wish they would just go for the moment of silence.

pfaffmachine: Yep. I looked that up, too. I want to give Mr. Clifford's appointment the benefit of the doubt. However, here is what a cursory internet search found and it looks to me, at face value, another crony political payoff job.

Please tell me my hunch is wrong:

Mr. Clifford was one of a few teachers who accompanied Benton, Pam Roach and other legislators on a trip to China in 2007.

He has been hired as an aide and investigator for Ms. Roach

He spent a short time in law school, but blames dyslexia for shutting that opportunity. He represents himself in court when he takes on government.

He worked as a civic teacher and English teacher.

He is interested in environmental issues.

Pam Roach introduced a bill in 2013, probably inspired by and for him, that would make recall efforts easier for citizens. Mr. Clifford was trying to recall a Port of Seattle commissioner. (I am all for this, thinking of my own favorite recall wish).

He is an admirable citizen advocate. An effective agitator that seems to get under the skin of various government officials. Not a thing wrong with this. But.......what makes him qualified to be a Program Coordinator with the Clean Water division of Clark County Environmental Services?

Or, did his association with Benton and Roach get him the job?

Nothing wrong with asking these questions. The political association is a little too cozy for my comfort zone.

I wish him well. I wish Benton even better, because that dude is gonna need it.

manthou — August 15, 2013 at 5:44 p.m. ( | suggest removal

pfaffmachine --- Thanks for the link. Shows he can't spell. Looks like he's been there since 7/2 at least.

Chris Clifford · Works at Clark County Department of Environmental Services
You are **groajng** over the millions wasted proposing a bridge that was too short, but you have continually wanted to spend over a billion dollars to actually build a bridge too short...stupid or **schitzophrenic** you are one or both
July 2 at 9:09pm

langenthal — August 15, 2013 at 5:53 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Manthou and Nails,

Kindly tell me what other anti-Vietnam War protests on college campuses involved rioting, wholesale destruction of a downtown area, burning a campus building to the ground, and at least four encounters where the students threw rocks at the authorities.

I've said I don't condone the shootings. Sandra Scheuer and William Schroeder were innocent victims, walking to class when shot down. Allison Kraus and Jeffrey Miller were victims, but they were not innocent - they were both protestors who were part of the crowd throwing rocks and tear gas canisters at the Guardsmen.

It is quite unfortunate that the Governor reacted to rumors of a full blown riot and called the National Guard out. They Guardsmen were young kids entirely untrained in crowd control. If he'd have had the assets of a major city - say Chicago PD - They'd have had the training to break the crowd up, bust a few heads (figuratively speaking), and make a few arrests. I suppose some people would still be pissed at them (as with the DNC riots in Chicago), but the kids would still be alive.

But it didn't play out that way. And those kids took the gamble that the Guardsmen only had blanks (what they were told by their "leaders"). They lost. The same thing goes on every day somewhere in this country - someone thinks they can beat the law, and ends up losing.

Remember Bobby Hutton? He was the kid with Eldridge Cleaver and a dozen other Black Panthers when they ambushed a pair of Oakland PD officers, and were subsequently cornered in a house and attacked by probably every member of Oakland PD. They eventually surrendered, and Bobby Hutton was shot dead afterward - maybe trying to run (PD version) and maybe in cold blood (Cleaver's version). This was the shooting that prompted Bobby Seale to later call the Chicago Seven protestors a bunch of pretend revolutionaries hiding behind the protection of the law, while black kids who were true revolutionaries get gunned down in the streets like dogs and America doesn't care.

And maybe Bobby Seale was right. Those two kids at Kent State had a major difference from the Black kid in Oakland - they were part of the protected class that wasn't supposed to get treated that way.

roger — August 15, 2013 at 6:46 p.m. ( | suggest removal

manthou — August 15, 2013 at 4:06 p.m.

Count me in too! Like timerick, I'm interested in the salary. What are the fringe benefits?

Timerick - Knowing how and still being able doesn't mean we need to make babies too. I don't know about you, but I'm past the point of wanting to force kids to toe the line. I'm at that grandparent age where I'd rather spoil my own kids' children, and teach them a few bad habits (on the sly) to pay my kids back for the headaches they gave me.

roger — August 15, 2013 at 6:54 p.m. ( | suggest removal

roger — August 15, 2013 at 3:03 p.m.

I can't account for your view of a Liberal world, but as long as you're labeling, you're confusing progressivism with liberalism, (I've tried to break you of wiki but alas:) but no matter, why make this about that? I can tell you this matter of pop control is about free will, life & liberty, pursuit of happiness, that kinda thing for starters.

What I find stunning is the power & scope you want our government to have.

I will say the politician in you is coming out. Again you refuse to address the issue at hand. You're touting your position on population control without any specifics after being asked. Just like in times past. Again...

"I've asked you before how you would implement & enforce controlled population laws in America given our system of Democracy, but you would never detail anything. How about now?"

"Agreed that voluntary methods of birth control should be first, and made available (for free) to all. But for those who refuse to comply?" [[[please tell us]]]

"And how would an "uber Liberal world view" involve our Government controlling what we do with our bodies. Politically speaking, it certainly seems to be quite the opposite today."

nailingit — August 15, 2013 at 7:03 p.m. ( | suggest removal

langenthal @ 5:53 pm: Yeah. Spelling not that great. But I won't hold it against him if he knows how to be an "experienced" Program Coordinator in the division of Clean Water and went through a competitive vetting process to earn that job with his superior skills. He can use spellcheck for his reports. :)

Here's another theory: Perhaps Benton brought him on as his "ghost" advisor. Mr. Clifford seems to be a self-educated environmental advocate (among other things) and appears to have a lot of confidence to take on big government. Benton will pick his brain and take his advice because we all know Mr. Ed would do a better job as Director of Environmental Services. He will be Benton's brain. And Madore will fund his hobby attacks on the city of Vancouver on the side. Maybe he will run for office in Clark County and actually win this time.

Poor guy, he did not ask for all this speculative attention. But anyone with a history of being in Benton and Roach's inner circle must expect the spotlight, especially over this new job that tore him from Renton. I will bet the Seattle area is celebrating the move and breathing a sigh of relief.

Do you think the Columbian is on this angle? As the questions, journalists, because we do not have the access you do. :)

manthou — August 15, 2013 at 7:29 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Roger I am past that age to.I have 5 grand children and 1 great grand child.2 grands are in college 1 working full time and the others in high school.Love them all but glad when parents come and get them.Nail quit picking on Roger.He isn't running for President.Besides he may end up with Mike Yancey on that team.That in of its self is enough of a job.I still say go Roger.I am going to try to make it Tuesday to Latte Da at 5:30.Would like to see all of us there.

timerick — August 15, 2013 at 7:34 p.m. ( | suggest removal

roger: We are just not going to agree on the Kent State killings. None of these college kids did anything that day to deserve being shot at and killed, paralyzed and wounded. I don't condone rock throwing, burning, rude gestures or language. But none of them were armed.

I studied the chart that showed how far away the victims were from the Guardsmen. Some were as far as a football field away and were cut down. Specifically, Allison Krause and Jeffrey Miller, the two kids you claim may have deserved the risk for exercising their right of free speech and assembly.

I have a great pamphlet with better graphics and exact measurements, but look at this diagram from Wikipedia (if it doesn't link in the enlarged option, just click on the image and it will expand). Notice how far Krause and Miller are from the Guardsman and tell me that these kids, no weapons on them, were a threat.

In the documentary, filmed by a student journalist who happened to be there, it shows the surviving students joining hands and surrounding the fallen bodies as the Guard put down their spent weapons. Amazing image that is hard to shake.

[link text][1]


manthou — August 15, 2013 at 7:44 p.m. ( | suggest removal


If you want me to give up Wikipedia, you need to give up Huff Post.

The articles I reference on Wiki are always supportable elsewhere - and I use them when it saves have to reference several other sources instead.

Huff Post, on the other hand --- Well, let's just say I check my calendar to make sure they're telling me the correct date.

roger — August 15, 2013 at 7:46 p.m. ( | suggest removal

timerick: I hope we are all at Latte Da on Tuesday, as well. I told Sunrise O'Mahoney that I was disappointed she withdrew because we need regular citizens to run. She was in Pat Jollota's group.

I predict that Moeller, Jollata, Val Ogden, Temple Lentz and Jim Mains will win in the 3rd District race.

How nice it would have been for all the sitting and veteran politicians to have been the ones to have withdrawn and then thrown their support to the regular joes.

Isn't one elected job enough for them? Or is the stakes so high that they are banding together to preserve their power? Makes you wonder.

manthou — August 15, 2013 at 7:56 p.m. ( | suggest removal

manthou, question???

Is there any parking at that coffee shop? Or enough room for the amount of people I would expect at this kind of meeting?

hawkeye — August 15, 2013 at 8:17 p.m. ( | suggest removal

I hope Moeller drops out. Doesn't he have enough on his plate?


hawkeye — August 15, 2013 at 8:21 p.m. ( | suggest removal

hawkeye: Nothing but street parking for Latte Da. It will be jam packed if simply all the Freeholder candidates show up. No sound system. But, more power to them for taking the initiative to host it.

Yeah, I hear you about a salary from the county. Why don't the politicians WE know hand us a job?

manthou — August 15, 2013 at 8:28 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Manthou it was a tough time back then.All were just kids.The Guardsman were kids fresh out of high school.They most likely were on one of their first assignments.They had no idea what to do.If blame is to be placed I would put it straight on our government.Can you imagine how afraid they were and how they felt afterward.As far as the college kids not deserving to be shot at.The guardsman did not deserve to be ordered to use live ammo and shoot at these kids.Your husband was military ask him,you do not disobey orders.They had no time for a chain of command.As I said tough time back then and the government wanted to make a statement against the riots.It was all wrong.To be very honest it took me 30 years to realize that we were wrong to have been in Viet Nam.Am I ashamed no.I did what I thought was right at that point in my life.And I thought I was doing what was good for country.I still think back and I don't see me changing anything that I did at that point so many years ago.We as a country have not learned much.We still have 2 wars that I feel we do not belong in.But I will support our troops the best I can.I know what they are going through.And I thank God every time my nephew is here with no legs and missing a hand.And he holds no anger for what he has had to endure.Has all this made us better people,I like to think that it has.May be just my wishful thinking.

timerick — August 15, 2013 at 8:32 p.m. ( | suggest removal

timerick: I agree with you on how difficult that time was for so many young people who served our country. You obey orders and you do your very best and more.

Many of the surviving Kent State students who healed from their wounds have expressed the feeling that the National Guardsmen were victims, too. I believe that with all my heart, as well. They are living with this, too, and are equally scarred. A lose-lose tragedy with the real villain(s) running the show at our children's expense to make a dramatic example to keep other campuses scared, compliant and quiet. Not that it worked.

J. Edgar Hoover was still head of the FBI then and history has revealed some of his tactics in hindsight.

manthou — August 15, 2013 at 9:11 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Thanks Manthou.

timerick — August 15, 2013 at 9:25 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Not to beat this horse any longer, but, in 2011, investigative journalist John Mangels of the Cleveland Plain Dealer wrote an excellent article which points to an FBI "plant" who fired a shot that prompted a "Fire" command. Audio recording analysis done by two forensic experts hired by the newspaper seems to show there was a clear command after this shot.

The UN's report, expected in October of 2013, may confirm or disprove this theory.

Anyway, here is a great article from a great newspaper:

[link text][1]


manthou — August 15, 2013 at 9:33 p.m. ( | suggest removal

luvithere — August 15, 2013 at 4:17 p.m.

"against the topic"-"for everybody just having ten kids?"-You should be a freeholder!

luvit I have nothing against this topic-to include a well reasoned/rounded discussion.

As for the ten kids thing, one thing I know for sure...

I don't want the Don Benton's, the David Madore's, the John Boehners and Harry Reid's of the world dictating by law how large or small American families should be.

nailingit — August 16, 2013 at 8:02 a.m. ( | suggest removal

"You complain about a state committee nobody but you are strangely silent on former U.S. Congressman Jesse Jackson Jr. who was sentenced to 30 months in Federal prison for fraud. If you care about corruption it shouldn't matter what letter follows the name."

frobert — August 15, 2013 at 4:37 p.m.

I rarely post about a politicians personal shortcomings. However I did take a shot at Weiner last week.

I relayed the story about this powerful local conservative politico talk show host because in some ways it was analogous to Ruby Ridge. The old holding police at bay with a rifle thing.

If it helps...screw Jesse Jackson Jr. And if that didn't satisfy you, well then, screw Jesse Jackson! Does that help bring balance your world? :)

You haven't been around for awhile. I was concerned your fellow right wingers had eaten you alive over the Trayvon thing.

Have you changed your party affiliation to Democrat yet?

nailingit — August 16, 2013 at 8:14 a.m. ( | suggest removal

"Nail quit picking on Roger.He isn't running for President.Besides he may end up with Mike Yancey on that team.That in of its self is enough of a job."

timerick — August 15, 2013 at 7:34 p.m.

timerick- I'd love to see Yancey & roger sit down and dialogue. :)

(roger-just skip this part because we're talking about you)

I'm not picking, but once again roger will not expound on this government mandated population control belief when asked. It's his baby-his idea-his belief. Usually when roger espouses a position he has data (at least his idea of data) to support it. But alas-once again he is silent on specifics.

He's not running for President for sure, but not explaining what one espouses, especially when it involves radically broadening the scope of government, be it local or Fed, he should be prepared to explain his reasoning.

I support roger getting involved to make a difference.

However I don't support questions about life & liberty being met with indifference.

nailingit — August 16, 2013 at 8:34 a.m. ( | suggest removal

I was sitting on my patio this morning and I had a thought. Go figure!!

You all want to mess with the NSA? I have been doing this for a few weeks and have had no repercussions. YET. In my phone conversations I have been using some key words involving terrorists. The people who I have talked with are a little leery but have played along.

The invasion of privacy greatly interests me. I was once involved with the FBI. On the wrong side of coarse. It turned out I was innocent. I once sold the Willamette Bridge counter culture newspaper published in the late sixties and early seventies. It morphed into the Willamette Week. At that time the FBI was investigating all the papers that were against the war and more importantly against Nixon. This was done on the direct orders from Hoover himself.

I got a personal interview with some guys in black suits and they were wondering why an eagle scout would sell this filthy rag. They sure as hell knew a lot about me. When I told them it was for the money, why they just couldn't believe it. I asked them why are they wasting their time when I was doing something legal. They had no answers. Just a lot of mumbling.

Now lets back up a little. I was also involved in an investigation when when I was a minor. Again I was innocent. But they wouldn't just let it go. It took six months for them to catch the right people. No apologies, nothing. They just dropped it. Over the years I have asked for those documents under the FOIA but have never received anything.

Personally I get enjoyment out of messin' with 'em. What are going to do? Shoot me? Whoops!!!

I am not on the presidents side on this one. There has to be over-site. They have proven that while they claim to have stopped some plots they still want more intrusion with nobody looking over their shoulders.

JohnCasey — August 16, 2013 at 8:56 a.m. ( | suggest removal

JohnCasey- Just think if thousands (maybe they do) of people such as yourself wasted the FBI's time doing asinine crap like. "In my phone conversations I have been using some key words involving terrorists. The people who I have talked with are a little leery but have played along."

Un-friggin'-believable. You do understand we have viable hard hitting crime, to include real terrorists threats facing America-don't you? My God. You think this whole thing is a game.

Go back to chasing cars guy.


nailingit — August 16, 2013 at 9:19 a.m. ( | suggest removal

manthou - A very interesting article from the Plain Dealer (which I agree is a highly respected newspaper). There is a lot of info I've never heard before; I'm curious why Justice hasn't elected to pursue these allegations. I'm still reading it, but two things have already caught my attention.

Previous accounts all say the Kent State student population was a somewhat conservative (in comparison to Ohio State and other local schools), blue collar one. This account states there was a militant chapter of SDS on campus that Terry Norman tried to infiltrate. This is an interesting point, because SDS disbanded a year before Kent State, due to a leadership takeover by the moderate Worker Student Alliance. By the time of Kent State, the only group still operating as the SDS was the Revolutionary Youth Movement, which included the militant Weathermen who believed violent confrontation was required in their fight against the industrial war machine. This narrative actually supports the argument that the protestors at Kent State weren't just a crowd of nonviolent antiwar protestors - perhaps many were, but the guardsmen wouldn't know that when rocks came flying from all parts of the crowd (a common tactic by agitators is to spread through the crowd to make your numbers appear larger than they really are). But whatever - as you say - neither of us will change our minds on this part.

What really caused me to pause, however, is the video at the top of page 2. The article has various conflicting statements about Terry Norman's activities. At :41 he hands the gun over to the police officer, and a Guardsman and a man in a suit gather round. At :52 someone says to Norman that he should have stayed behind the Guardsmen, and Norman replies that he tried to but they ran away. There are a few implications that could be drawn from this, but they all stink.

roger — August 16, 2013 at 9:24 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Nails, you sure got up on the wrong side of the bed today. Go and take a nap. You sound awfully cranky, ready to jump at everybody here this morning.

And don't give me the crap re NSA. You cannot bitch about Bush and let Obama slide. Wrong is wrong no matter who is in charge.

And neither Roger nor I ever said we want population control by the gov. I sure do not. The whole discussion centers around the one fact that there are too many of us. And as long as it stays such a super sensitive issue, a discussion seems impossible.

Now go nap a bit.

luvithere — August 16, 2013 at 9:27 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Luvithere - Thanks for clarifying the discussion.

I suppose I shouldn't reference viewpoints by the likes of Pat Buchanan, but Nails' subsequent outrage tends to be entertaining. So I'm thinking I have to share in the blame for his crankiness.

roger — August 16, 2013 at 9:45 a.m. ( | suggest removal

luvit- Your framing of a conversation is once again special. Who am I jumping on except the guy who's taking making prank phone calls to an unbelievably childish and irresponsible level. If you're on board with this than I don't know what to tell you.

No need for the snide remarks about sleep.

"And don't give me the crap re NSA. You cannot bitch about Bush and let Obama slide. Wrong is wrong no matter who is in charge."

What exactly are you talking about? I was speaking to taking up our National Security Agency's and FBI's time and money (taxpayer money btw) with conducting prank telephone calls targeting security threats for the purpose of eliciting ill conceived criminal investigations. Unbelievable.

The conversation with roger and I concerning population control has been all about government dictating such. I really don't know what to say to, "And neither Roger nor I ever said we want population control by the gov.".

nailingit — August 16, 2013 at 9:46 a.m. ( | suggest removal

HC - Thanks for including me as a "next up" after your rant against Kinsey and Stuart. Keep this up and I may start feeling too big for my britches (whatever that old saying means). Fortunately, though, I have Nails to burst that bubble and bring me back to reality.

roger — August 16, 2013 at 9:51 a.m. ( | suggest removal

So I'm thinking I have to share in the blame for his crankiness.

roger — August 16, 2013 at 9:45 a.m.

Don't think so highly of yourself. :)

If you guys need to frame an opposing opinion with stuff like he's "cranky", feel free. It speaks to much. I'm actually in a very fine mood. :)

Since you're silent about your position on pop control, how about John's penchant for pranking the powers.

nailingit — August 16, 2013 at 9:55 a.m. ( | suggest removal

roger: Yeah. The more I read about the suspected FBI involvement, the more questions arise. No doubt there were "professional" protesters present to rile the crowd. But that Norman guy and the conflicting witness reports beg for answers.

Kent State is in a very blue collar part of Ohio, as you point out. A trivia factoid that struck me: the entire Jewish student population of Kent State at the time was only about 5%, yet 75% of the fatalities were Jewish kids. I do not believe they were specifically targeted, but what an odd
over-representational statistic to ponder.

Allison Krause's father (now deceased), mother, and younger sister have kept the pressure on when all the other families understandably ran out of steam. I admire their tenacity and hope, for their sake, the UN can reach some definitive conclusions so that they can be at peace.

I am sorely disappointed in President Obama for ignoring all of Laurel Krause's well-penned letters to him. I have read them and they are respectful and thoughtful, a touching plea for help. Same with Eric Holder. The silence speaks volumes to me. What are they protecting? Who are they protecting? Norman? Most of the government players are long dead. Are they waiting for Norman to croak?

The soldiers were indispensable. The students we know were definitely indispensable. Seems like they all were pawns in a sinister government game. Just like terrorists who kill a hostage to keep the others in line. I could be way off, but it is just a gut feeling, knowing the history of J Edgar.

And I do know the Dealer would not invest in their 2011 story if they did not feel the questions had to be investigated.

manthou — August 16, 2013 at 10:03 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Nails - You have a habit of not following comments to their conclusion. Both luvithere and I start with supporting voluntary means of halting population growth, such as free birth control. But then we move to how to accomplish this with those who won't stop having large families (for whatever the reason)? And, as mrd brought into the discussion yesterday, the world population growth may have slowed, but it continues to increase. So just how close to a dangerous overload are we?

In the past Mother Earth kept us in check herself, with plagues that killed off large numbers. But we've managed to combat these things, and have extended average life spans by decades. At some point, which we may be approaching now, we will get to where the "have" nations like ours will not be able to support the "have nots" - clear cutting the Amazon jungles and wholesale elimination of species on the African continent are just the start.

So - kindly address the following. At what point (if ever) are more draconian measures required, and who should be responsible for implementing them?

roger — August 16, 2013 at 10:10 a.m. ( | suggest removal

JohnCasey: I enjoyed your reminiscing about your youthful run in with the FBI. One of my classmates in college, a person I knew well and worked with in theatrical productions, ran away one day and joined the Symbionese Liberation Army. She helped kidnap Patty Hearst and perished in the firestorm that erupted when they were cornered. Her name was Angela DeAngelis.

Anyway, the FBI descended upon campus and questioned the whole lot of us. I never had the courage to mess with those guys, because, yeah, they can do a great deal of damage if they want to.

When we immigrated to Canada in the late 1980's, my husband was quizzed about his student government role at Berkeley: someone had a file on him and this is a guy who was a Vietnam vet.

Let us know if your fake telephone conversations with key buzz words get any attention from the suits. One of us will try to bail you out. :)

Just think of how Portland lawyer Brandon Mayfield must have felt: innocent and locked up for terrorist suspicions. He sued the government, but I do not think his life or practice has ever been the same.

manthou — August 16, 2013 at 10:16 a.m. ( | suggest removal

WaPo has published NSA documents that reveal thousands of privacy violations each year for years:

[link text][1]


manthou — August 16, 2013 at 10:23 a.m. ( | suggest removal

roger- "You have a habit of not following comments to their conclusion." Kinda like I'm "cranky". You mean like your follow thru on pop control. You know our conversation pre-dates luvit's intervention. You know you have endorsed government intervention in the past with doing so.

Again-You're obfuscating.

Since you've chosen to continue in this, how about a little quid-pro-quo. Please address my more than reasonable questions @ August 15, 2013 at 7:03 p.m.

nailingit — August 16, 2013 at 10:29 a.m. ( | suggest removal

"Let us know if your fake telephone conversations with key buzz words get any attention from the suits. One of us will try to bail you out. :)"

After a few days of lock-up, to include interrogation in order to properly evaluate this Vantucky grown threat, and an assessment of LE time & expense spent on this fraudulent act is calculated, along with a promissory note to reimburse monies in full........maybe. :)

nailingit — August 16, 2013 at 10:42 a.m. ( | suggest removal

My father had a way of population control although he never used it.When ever my brother or I did something stupid or cost him money he didn't have,he would say I should pinched your little heads off at birth.I have used that saying myself with my kids and grandkids.They didn't believe me either.

timerick — August 16, 2013 at 10:55 a.m. ( | suggest removal

A lot of what's mentioned in the Plain Dealer article isn't connecting. Not to discount the article; rather, I'd like to see answers that tie these things together.

There's a time period of 1:49 after the Guardsmen fired where Norman claims he checked the condition of a downed person, was engaged in a scuffle with a few people where he was knocked to the ground, and covers a quarter mile to the safety of a cordoned off area. Oh, and he was dressed in a sports jacket, had a camera slung around his neck, and was wearing boots. Virtually impossible. The average person can't cover a quarter mile in that time dressed as he was without all those distractions.

A student named Malik says he saw Norman waving his pistol in the direction of the students while the Guard was shooting, though he couldn't tell if Norman was shooting. He doesn't mention anything about what happened afterward. There are several good reasons for why he didn't see any of this (he could have been running for his life!) which it would be nice to see addressed - a normal person would logically keep his eye on someone waving a gun.

The student named Masterson says he jumped Norman after the shooting stopped, but no one else was involved. Why did he jump him????

The video shows grad student Harold Reid, who shouts "Hey, stop that man! I saw him shoot someone! Stop him, he’s carrying a gun!" I've reread the article a couple of times and don't see his name anywhere - was he interviewed? This is the only person who actually says Norman fired his gun - a major point of contention with the subsequent "was the gun fired" controversy. Where is Reid's account?

There's a photo of Mary Vecchio staring directly at Norman - he's wearing his gas mask and taking photos. She's the one who later bent over Miller crying that they shot him. This raises a lot of questions, but I don't see her mentioned as being interviewed for the article either.

roger — August 16, 2013 at 11:05 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Sorry Nails, still see you as cranky today. At least you come across as such. Where de cheerful one today?

SO, what's your take on pop growth? Not intervention, just the size of it. Do you think we have infinite room and resources to make a few more billion humans in short order?

And as for John having a bit of fun over phone. Get real. After the (non)Patriot Act was passed, I ran afoul of it as it was used by biz to squeeze all private info out of you under the act. I loved yelling into the phone that a certain AG Ashcroft could kiss de booty. I made sure to change the h in his name to a second s. Felt good.

I heard the click in my phone back then already. Hope they chuckled about my pronunciation of his name.
Snooping on innocent citizens is wrong. Don't care what you call it. 4th Amendment anybody?

luvithere — August 16, 2013 at 11:19 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Another thing that caught my attention was that "Campus Police Chief Schwatzmiller considered Norman "gun-happy and very immature" and wanted to bar him from campus. Northampton Police Chief Larry Cochran, who knew Norman from his part-time security job at the Blossom Music Center, had similar concerns." So why was this clown walking around armed?

There's a Kent State detective named Kelly who is reportedly Norman's handler for the infiltration effort into SDS, and whatever else. How is he operating independently from his Chief? And I'm also confused over the very existence of this Kent State police force - maybe the article means the city of Kent, which the college is in? My experience with campus police forces was that they were little more than rent-a-cops. A detective? And riot gear?

The article notes a discrepancy over the rounds Norman's pistol held. Norman claims three hollow points, one armor piercing and one tracer round. The police report claims four hollow points and one armor piercing. I'm more interested in the type of rounds. Norman claims he had the pistol for protection, and apparently this was allowed by someone in the campus administration. Hollow points and those other rounds aren't normally bought by someone to protect themselves - at least not back in 1970. And what was that armor piercing round all about? Military and police protective vests were barely useful at that time - Kevlar vests came several years later. A tracer round for a pistol wasn't exactly common either. This guy had to have gotten his ammo from some police or government source - I don't recall seeing anything like that sold in the stores we common folk used next door in PA.

roger — August 16, 2013 at 11:35 a.m. ( | suggest removal

luvithere — "SO, what's your take on pop growth? Not intervention, just the size of it. Do you think we have infinite room and resources to make a few more billion humans in short order?"

*Stick em' in Montana. Stuff their ballot boxes with immigration reform, motor voter bills, and when they apply for public assistance, stick a voter registration form in their hand.

*That was in honor of kn_dalai.

You seem quite alarmed about this, and your concerns are so varied on the matter. That's why I asked you for stats. (knowing that's your specialty)

If you have some reasonable stats concerning sustainability v growth, I'm all eyes.

nailingit — August 16, 2013 at 11:42 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Nails - You'll have to show what I said. I've addressed the Chinese attempts to limit children, and suggested we need to consider efforts like this ourselves. I've offered up mandatory sterilization after an established number of children as a possible solution - is this perhaps what you've elected to zero in on? Once again - I've advocated nothing other than that we have a problem which needs to be seriously addressed. We have voluntary methods already in place. I'm trying to see what people would consider acceptable involuntary birth control. As manthou notes, we've actually used involuntary sterilization in the past - especially in the hospitals for the insane and the mentally retarded. The courts banned this practice (back in the '60s or '70s?). Would attitudes change if people knew life could soon become unsustainable due to too many people? I haven't said we must do something like this (not yet, anyhow). You're trying to make it sound as though I've said we should have a special police force tasked with counting children, and dashing baby heads against the wall for violations of the set number allowed.

roger — August 16, 2013 at 11:49 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Here you go, Nails. A reputable source that says the Earth can sustain a maximum population of between 9 and 10 billion. We're currently around 7.2 billion. If this writer is correct, even with the slowing growth we'll hit 9 billion by 2050, and 10 billion by 2100.

Maybe it would be socially responsible to focus on things like this?

roger — August 16, 2013 at 12:04 p.m. ( | suggest removal

And now that I've reached a pause in dealing with my antagonist whose opinions I actually respect - allow me to address something another person said.

HC - "There will be no compromise when the three current stooges remain in office and add a 4th one, that is Stuart! Benton is the thrid stooge by the way."

Uh - Stuart is already in office. He's been a County Commissioner since 2004.

roger — August 16, 2013 at 12:13 p.m. ( | suggest removal

An article added to The Columbian this morning caught my attention - It discusses variable rates for electricity, based on when used. They've had this in Portland/Multnomah County for who knows how long. Someone I work with who lives in Gresham told me (several years ago) that electricity is cheapest on Sunday mornings. We actually built our housekeeping and laundry schedules around this, so as to save a couple of bucks. A couple of years ago, when I took over the bill paying, I was looking at the Clark bill and it struck me that there was no breakout showing different costs. I e-mailed and was told sorry - we don't do that here. Moral (if there is one) -- Being socially conscious for the wrong reasons doesn't always pay off.

roger — August 16, 2013 at 12:23 p.m. ( | suggest removal


I guess the only response I need to make to that is that at least Democrat Steve Stuart has joined with Republican Greg Kimsey to put forth a plan they believe the freeholder committee will see as advancing the best interests of the County. There are a couple of things I might disagree with in that proposal, but I can also appreciate a message they're putting forth - That those of opposing political beliefs can work together for the common good.

roger — August 16, 2013 at 3:16 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Nails, it's okay dude. Life gets dull if you can't tweak the establishment a little once in a while. As far as wasting their time time they brought that on themselves.

Ya had two brain dead paranoid idiots (Nixon and Hoover) back then that didn't give a crap about privacy when it came to saving their jobs. They chose to instigate problems with the public and paid for it.

It's been over forty-two years since I've had conversations with the FBI. But I've had conversations with the secret service. They were in charge, back then, when someone filed complaints about stolen IRS refund checks. My was stolen and the first thing they did was call me down to their office and told me that they thought I did it myself to get more money. I informed them they were idiots. They don't like being called idiots by the way.

I told them they could go do something something with themselves. Next thing I know I'm in a little ante room with a pad of paper and pencil. I had to write my name fifty times in cursive to prove I didn't do it. After that I was told to go home and wait for them to contact me. HA. So much for being innocent until proven guilty. Even back then that didn't fly. I got my refund check shortly thereafter.

But that's not the end of the story. My wife and I pretty much knew who stole the check out of our mailbox. In the first interview I told them a name. Well they found out he did do it but they didn't prosecute him. It was someone in our neighborhood. When I saw him a couple of weeks later he told me that the would not prosecute if he kept his nose clean for a couple of years. Go figure.

And some wonder why I don't do 'red tape' and 'authority figures' very well. I called them on it and was told they already had enough on their plate that it wouldn't be cost effective to put him in jail. I believe they knew that the politics in the country, at the time, was going to blow sky-high and there was more important fish to fry. Watergate was just around the corner.

JohnCasey — August 16, 2013 at 3:23 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Once again, natural population growth of the industriallized nations is not a problem, as it tends to be negative.

World population growth is the result of population growth in undeveloped and developing countries. Just what authority would this country have to, ever, partake in forced sterilization in sub saharan Africa or elsewhere?

Getting back to the U.S. We’ve all heard stories of such and such a woman with 10 children, who is supported by the welfare state. A case could be made that if not for the welfare state, that woman wouldn’t have 10 children to begin with. But those who pull the strings, control things. In this case, the welfare state government, which could argue the legitimacy of forced sterilization. This is the stuff of slippery slopes.

kn_dalai — August 16, 2013 at 6:29 p.m. ( | suggest removal

JohnCasey — August 16, 2013 at 3:23 p.m.

John- I've never been all that good at being tactful. I certainly meant no ill will and am glad you didn't take it that way. This subject does hit a nerve at times when I feel people aren't taking it seriously.

I'm certainly no expert and don't know nothin' about nothin'. But if I did know something, I know (as we all do) there are more than a few in this world whose main objective in life is to harm our Country, as well as countless people from diverse backgrounds willing to facilitate and profit from it.

I was doing security related work overseas when 9/11 hit. A couple of days later my daughter told us her music teacher was aboard American Airlines Flight 11, and how her University was coping with the tragedy. Talk about feeling helpless. Years later living in Ansbach Germany, the #2 leader of Al-Qaeda Europe was arrested within a mile and a half of my house.

And as of late, the Boston Bombing just four short months ago.

It's a balancing act with privacy vs safety. I don't envy those who make these decisions. What good is our democracy if we relinquish much of our privacy for protection. On the other hand, what good is our democracy if we basically cease to exist for sake of ill preparedness.

I guess I took your post as someone yelling fire in a fireless crowded theater, only worse. I know the NSA, CIA, FBI and other agencies entrusted with our security are far from perfect. The problems are systemic, and in some ways seem to get worse with time. But it's what we got.

Please re-think your strategy. If not for anything else, the taxpayers dime.

Peace & Goodwill.

nailingit — August 16, 2013 at 6:34 p.m. ( | suggest removal

And HC,

"... closet conservative republican..." -- holycrapola — August 16, 2013 at 8:36 a.m.

What’s this thing about telling me, disparagingly, that I use labels when I refer to some as Leftists, for example?

kn_dalai — August 16, 2013 at 6:39 p.m. ( | suggest removal

roger — August 16, 2013 at 11:49 a.m.

One thing's for sure. This subject has generated a spirited debate. :) Again, what concerns me most, (something knd often reminds us of) is the role of government. They already have us coming and going, just by the nature of such. To dictate family size goes beyond the pale.

It could go the other way also. Once that door is opened, evangelicals in power might insist on a + side quota. They're already making laws against the best interest of a patients health and doctor's advice, to include invasive unneeded medical procedures. Not to mention the rhetoric and laws concerning contraception/birth control/abortion. Not a big leap.

Imagine having Dave insist you fertilize one of his crew. Holy Jo Jo!

"And now that I've reached a pause in dealing with my antagonist whose opinions I actually respect"

Thanks roger. I respect yours also. I know if I didn't, I wouldn't spend so much time bantering with you. It really isn't my intent to antagonize. You have some pretty good ideas, and for the most part sound judgement. That's more than I can say for myself most days!

nailingit — August 16, 2013 at 7:08 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Bonneville Power Admin is in big trouble for the way they handled their hiring process and for punishing whistleblowers.


Sounds a little like Clark County.

[link text][1]


manthou — August 16, 2013 at 7:45 p.m. ( | suggest removal


There's nothing wrong with being an antagonist.

an•tag•o•nist (ænˈtæg ə nɪst)
1. a person who is opposed to or competes with another; opponent; adversary.
2. (in drama or literature) the opponent of the hero or protagonist.

You just have to accept that I claim the role of protagonist for myself.

roger — August 16, 2013 at 8:05 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Interesting read. Something that came out in the earlier articles a while back appears to have moved to the forefront of the case.

"One of the issues highlighted by members of Congress was the need to mitigate the impact on veterans and others who were disadvantaged in the hiring process."

If they're really planning on pursuing this, as opposed to a pretend fix (as is so often the case), then the federal gov't better expect this complaint to spread to other agencies. Veterans hiring preferences are routinely violated by that subjective rating process many agencies use. And even in those where vets are assigned a higher category, there are ways to expand the pool to get the person you want included - then we have a subjective interview process and you hire the person you want - not the Vet. DOD is one of the biggest violators!!

roger — August 16, 2013 at 8:18 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Job Openings

Director of Environmental Services Don Benton's Administrative Assistant's last day will be Aug. 22. Application is not on line. I would be very surprised if this hire goes through county process. Benton will probably be able to bring his own person a la Madore & Miller. Wired for JoJo? Debbie Peterson? Christian Berrigan?

County Medical Examiner is looking for autopsy assistant, who cleans bodies before and after.

Let the snark begin!

langenthal — August 16, 2013 at 8:27 p.m. ( | suggest removal


US population growth over the past 10 years.

Nov 1, 2012 314.69 million
Jul 1, 2012 313.85 million
Jul 1, 2011 311.59 million
Jul 1, 2010 309.35 million
Jul 1, 2009 306.77 million
Jul 1, 2008 304.09 million
Jul 1, 2007 301.23 million
Jul 1, 2006 298.38 million
Jul 1, 2005 295.52 million
Jul 1, 2004 292.81 million
Jul 1, 2003 290.11 million

World population growth over the past 10 years.

2003 6,310,549,064
2004 6,386,542,886
2005 6,462,181,426
2006 6,537,660,425
2007 6,613,222,370
2008 6,688,888,440
2009 6,764,650,308
2010 6,840,423,256
2011 6,916,178,298
2012 6,991,800,919

A rough swag is that the US is growing at about 1/2 to 1% per year, while the world is going up a bit over 1% per year. I'm not sure this is enough of a difference in itself (one of the problems I had with Buchanan's argument on this topic).

How to force a fix on our own country, much less on another one, is the crux of the whole argument. Our inability to find a solution that can be applied reasonably and agreeably across all countries and cultures is why I predict that around 2050, when we hit that crisis point of 9 billion inhabitants of the planet, such concepts as choice will go by the wayside.

And seeing as how most of us here, if not all, will be gone by then - I guess I can get away with making that prediction without fear of being proven wrong!

roger — August 16, 2013 at 8:44 p.m. ( | suggest removal

"You just have to accept that I claim the role of protagonist for myself."

roger — August 16, 2013 at 8:05 p.m.

Oh, I accepted that a long time ago roger.

nailingit — August 16, 2013 at 8:46 p.m. ( | suggest removal

roger — August 16, 2013 at 8:44 p.m

You will note that I stated "natural population growth".

Immigration is the only reason that the population is increasing in this country, and others.

I've linked to this before. A google search is easy.

kn_dalai — August 16, 2013 at 8:58 p.m. ( | suggest removal

***Maybe the Demos will boycott FOX, oh wait, they already do!***

(Reuters) - The U.S. Republican party resolved on Friday to boycott any 2016 presidential debates sponsored by CNN and NBC if the networks go ahead with plans to make special programs on Hillary Clinton, who is widely expected to seek the Democratic nomination.

Delegates to a meeting of the Republican National Committee voted for a resolution that included the boycott and said the programs would be "little more than extended commercials promoting former Secretary Clinton."

The RNC also resolved that it would require that any future debates have "appropriate moderators and debate partners."

Delegates approved the motion by a unanimous voice vote.

Republican leaders sent letters of protest to both networks last week complaining that a planned CNN documentary and an NBC miniseries amount to political ads for the former secretary of state and wife of former President Bill Clinton. She has not said she is running.;=politicsNews&rpc;=76

hawkeye — August 16, 2013 at 9:45 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Roger and Nail you two are so much alike.You may think that you come from different ends but you seem to come together at a middle point.I wish that I was educated enough to completly understand the both of you.Thank you both for making things interesting.It is people like you two that make things worthwhile.We may not agree on some things but that is the way of this whole life.Makes the world go around for good or bad.

timerick — August 16, 2013 at 10:38 p.m. ( | suggest removal

i'd appreciate a cliff-notes description of the freeholder issue being discussed.

i've done some research, but it doesn't seem to apply to vancouver.

don't wanna stay ignorant.....

DeeLittle — August 16, 2013 at 11:43 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Thanks Nails. Over the years I have mellowed. A little. In the past I might have taken it a step further. Maybe your right about wasting their time on something so trivial as little ol' me.

But here's the rub. If they go around and can, without impunity, listen in, open your electronic mail, and perform surveillance on you, then our rights are being trampled on and we as a nation need to be aware of their actions. It does harken back to the days of jackboot thuggery. I didn't like it then and I sure as hell like it even less now. There needs to be better oversight.

When President Obama speaks (beats around the bush) I get the feeling he's becoming the best damn car salesman ever. He's trying to sell our freedom down the river while trying to convince us it's for our own good. There has to be a better balance of powers given to him. He's acting more and more like a despot drunk with power and trying to steamroll us over. Now this is just MY opinion but I still think a lot of you who voted for him (me also) are beginning to see what I mean.

JohnCasey — August 17, 2013 at 6:11 a.m. ( | suggest removal

langenthal @ 8:27 pm: It appears, on the surface, that Benton slid a crony politico into a vacant Program Coordinator (Clean Water) job in July. That would be Chris Clifford, former aide/investigator to Sen. Pam Roach, pit bull citizen activist and former high school teacher from Renton.

Now his Administrative Assistant is leaving? First of all, you wonder why she/he is splitting. Then, who, indeed, will he gift this latest job to? Especially since it is not being advertised (so far). We'll be watching and broadcasting who the lucky new CC employee is.

What state agency accepts citizen complaints about county government on-the-book policies being violated?

I think The Columbian could put six reporters on Clark County full time and they still would be overworked with the task.

manthou — August 17, 2013 at 6:39 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Speaking of Clark County commission: I listened to the 2 hour plus Board Time and chuckled at how much Tom Mielke hates The Columbian. He wants to axe all CC's subscriptions that some departments say they need to stay informed.

Someone had to explain to him the difference between an opinion piece and a straight news story. He complained that he never has seen an article corrected or clarified.

When asked by Stuart something to the effect: Don't you ever adjust your behavior based on public perception? He blurted out an assertive NO.

He also did not know what Leadership Clark County was, and he has been in this job how long?

Your Clark County taxes at work, folks.

manthou — August 17, 2013 at 6:44 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Press Talk and saying good bye to old cars:

Reminded me of Neil Young's "Long May You Run." According to Wikipedia:

"Long May You Run", peaked at #71 on the UK singles chart,[7] and was an elegy for Neil Young's first car, a 1948 Buick Roadmaster hearse, which he nicknamed "Mort."[8] Mort was different vehicle than the 1953 Pontiac hearse, nicknamed Mort 2, that Richie Furray, traveling with Stills, saw Young driving in a Hollywood traffic jam in 1966 that led to the formation of Buffalo Springfield.[9]

In honor of the Prelude, a much younger Young, long ago:

[link text][1]


manthou — August 17, 2013 at 7:13 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Well, been a spirited week in the basement. Thanks, kn, for providing some good stats on population.

As I mentioned a few times, I am not ready to call for forced control yet, but as Roger said, what happens when we hit that big number? I think my biggest issue is that this seems to be a topic that is swept under the table at the national and international level. The sacred cow that can't be addressed. Then lets look at the myriad of countries where birth control is forbidden or inaccessible. Heck, look at some countries where they barely make the connection between sex and babies!

Ah well.

luvithere — August 17, 2013 at 7:33 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Another Andrea Damewood article that describes a chilling outcome for a local right-wing group.

I have watched the Oregon Citizen's Alliance foment hate and misinformation for years, even creeping over to Clark County to start a chapter.

This crimes-against-humanity charge against Scott Lively (where is Lon Mabon?) should send a chilling message to other allegedly "Christian" groups.

Stunning stuff:

[link text][1]


manthou — August 17, 2013 at 8:50 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Hi Manthou, yes, I have been reading about him the last week. Nice "Christian" fellow, isn't he? Why can't these firebrands focus on important things, like aiding their fellow human beings instead of letting their hatred guide them?

luvithere — August 17, 2013 at 9:16 a.m. ( | suggest removal

timerick — August 16, 2013 at 10:38 p.m.

Don't sell yourself short - You've got a good family, raised good kids to become responsible adults, and have a successful business. In my book talking is overrated; doing is preferable.

One of my favorite scenes discussing this.

roger — August 17, 2013 at 9:38 a.m. ( | suggest removal

DeeLittle — August 16, 2013 at 11:43 p.m.

I'm not sure if this will help, but --

WA State has set what a County government will look like. There are also provisions in place to allow changing this, to meet local needs - Home Rule is the term applied. One approach to Home Rule is the freeholder method, which allows citizens to build their government within certain set guidelines. Once this is done (within a year) the freeholder committee goes away. This approach appears to be more popular in larger population counties. Previous efforts here in Clark County have failed - in my opinion, because any advantage or disadvantage to change hasn't been made clear by those proposing it. I know the last time it was on the ballot I had to read the pro and con statements a few times to even have an inkling of what was wanted. This resurrection is largely in response to the Benton hiring at County.

A document on the County website is about as good as I have found explaining this.

And here's a link to the proposal Stuart and Kimsey have collaborated on. It's an example of what could come from the freeholder process. It appears to have a goal of accomplishing something I'm in favor of - A strong County government that represents the entire area. With me, there's way too much of the "If it's good for Vancouver" applied to decision making around here.

You might want to consider attending a couple of meetings.

Temple Lentz and Jim Mains are hosting a gathering Tuesday, August 20, from 5:30-8pm, at Latte Da Coffeehouse & Wine Bar, 205 E. 39th Street, Vancouver. The format as I understand it is to allow the various freeholder candidates an opportunity to give a short presentation saying what they want to accomplish. I'm guessing this one will have a heavy District 3 perspective.

Ann Rivers and Liz Pike are hosting a couple of gatherings. Tuesday, August 20 from 5:30 to 7:30 p.m. at Battle Ground City Hall, 109 SW 1st Street in the upstairs city council chambers, and Thursday, August 29th from 5:30 to 7:30 p.m. at the Washougal Community Center, 1681 "C" Street, in Washougal. These are advertised as town hall meetings, to discuss the process and gather information for Rivers and Pike (both are running for freeholder) to use in the process.

As many are complaining, there's a heavy push to politicize the process and have a heavy representation by the people who already run politics around here - that the "common people" and what we think will be pushed to the side. We'll see - some of the common folk can be pretty pigheaded.

roger — August 17, 2013 at 10:20 a.m. ( | suggest removal

kn_dalai — August 16, 2013 at 8:58 p.m.

I'm in favor of immigration - "They" tend to value their citizenship more than a lot of people born here, and lead productive lifestyles. Based on who wants to join the military these days, one might claim they're more patriotic too. Too bad we can't maintain a desirable population balance through stripping useless people of their citizenship and deporting them. (Yes - I know - Another wild and unsupportable statement. And I would be highly upset if I were placed in that has-to-go group.)

roger — August 17, 2013 at 10:34 a.m. ( | suggest removal

timerick — August 16, 2013 at 10:38 p.m.

Thanks for the kind words Tim. I think for the most part folks can talk things out, even if they disagree.

One of my favorite scenes discussing this.

nailingit — August 17, 2013 at 10:41 a.m. ( | suggest removal

It’s not government’s place to deny voluntary associations, nor to force unwanted associations. If Scott lively is trying to use government to do so, then he is wrong. However, it’s all too common place to assume hatred as the motivator.

I won’t try to corroborate this, but I do recall that Scott Lively once said that he and his wife had cared for a man dying of AIDS, in their own home. I think that was back in the late 80’s early 90’s.

This charge against Lively isn't going anywhere.

"Evangelical Pastor Scott Lively says the Ugandan Parliament invited him and other U.S. religious leaders to speak about the homosexual movement and how it should be addressed in the East African country. Lively says he recommended an approach rooted in rehabilitation, not punishment and says an anti-gay bill being considered by the Ugandan Parliament goes too far. But some say he and his peers are culpable for encouraging the anti-gay sentiment in Uganda. Rev. Lively explains what he told lawmakers in the African nation." -- [][1]



kn_dalai — August 17, 2013 at 10:59 a.m. ( | suggest removal


What's going on out in sleepy little Battleground? Your Mayor resigns citing personal reasons and says she's moving on. Then she says she's staying and running for City Council. She says Delasandro (sp?) is guilty of slimeball tactics, while Mr. D is claiming to be a Boy Scout.

Are you guys tired of being upstaged by Vancouver, County, Washougal, and whatever other fights I'm overlooking?

(Now that I think about it, I sort of recall some noise relating to your city gov't several months ago. But I wasn't paying much attention, so....)

roger — August 17, 2013 at 11:19 a.m. ( | suggest removal

roger: My guess is that Ms. Walters was intercepted by David Madore, who promised some financial support for her to stay in the race. Just a wild guess, no proof.

Sorry for butting in, hawkeye. I eagerly await what your thoughts are on the subject.

manthou — August 17, 2013 at 11:27 a.m. ( | suggest removal

roger — August 17, 2013 at 10:34 a.m.

Immigration can be a very good thing, as we natives, over time, tend to become complacent. So I’m also in favor of immigration and I think most everyone is also. But there’s also that, about taking a couple of aspirin but not the whole bottle.

Anyway, my point is that most, if not all, industrialized nations have a larger death rate than birth rate, and the natural growth rate is actually negative. Immigration is the only reason that population is increasing in these coutries, including the United States.

World population increase is coming from undeveloped and developing counties.

kn_dalai — August 17, 2013 at 11:33 a.m. ( | suggest removal

roger — August 17, 2013 at 10:34 a.m.

I tend to agree with you about immigrants and their patriotism.

"Too bad we can't maintain a desirable population balance through stripping useless people of their citizenship and deporting them."

Sterilize the young & euthanize the old. By your timeline of 2050, (also around the time when whites become a minority in America) and by your definition, most Conservatives to include Congress will be residing in Somalia. In order to keep our politics a little balanced, maybe not the best idea.

nailingit — August 17, 2013 at 11:37 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Well, I don't really know what's going on with her. She's out, then in.... I can't keep track anymore. Actually, I live 1 mile out of the city limits so I'm not allowed to vote in any city races so my interest is limited, however, I think she has done a good job and I hope she continues.

hawkeye — August 17, 2013 at 11:41 a.m. ( | suggest removal


I was thinking more along the lines of:

roger — August 17, 2013 at 4:17 p.m. ( | suggest removal

roger, I'll bet that was HC with the chest tat!

hawkeye — August 17, 2013 at 4:40 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Hawkeye - I thought of saying something along that lines and restrained myself.

roger — August 17, 2013 at 4:46 p.m. ( | suggest removal

well, I'm NOT running for anything.

hawkeye — August 17, 2013 at 4:55 p.m. ( | suggest removal


thanks for the links and the explanation.

do you see the parallel between the 4th amendment proponents and our 'freeholders'....?

interesting. intriguing. gonna follow the thread.

again, thanks for your description and the links.

DeeLittle — August 17, 2013 at 5:20 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Manthou - Just read that WW article on Lively, and the links to earlier articles. What I'm getting is:

Lively and a few other evangelical ministers went to Uganda around 2008/09 to urge the government to pass legislation banning homosexuality. This appears to have been prompted by the epidemic of HIV/AIDS in Uganda.

As a result of this, the Uganda legislature drafted legislation calling for killing those who are HIV positive. Lively claimed to have never called for this, but said he thought it was a step in the right direction.

There was an international outcry, and the legislation never passed.

A Ugandan gay rights group claims Lively and associates created an environment where gays were discriminated against; they say that prior to that time, no one bothered them.

The bill is reintroduced last month. The wording appears to have been changed (or the NY Times may be exaggerating) - now it makes "the offense of homosexuality" punishable by death.

This group gets no attention from the Ugandan courts, so they use an alien tort provision of US law pertaining to violation of international law.

The federal judge hearing the case makes a landmark decision - that "persecuting someone based on their sexual orientation is a crime against humanity."

The International Criminal Court (ICC) in The Hague was given jurisdiction over crimes against humanity, among other things, in 2002. This Court has initiated proceedings in the past against Ugandans who are members of the Lords Resistance Army for a number of atrocities.

Per the ICC, the following applies -- (h) Persecution against any identifiable group or collectivity on political, racial, national, ethnic, cultural, religious, gender as defined in paragraph 3, or other grounds that are universally recognized as impermissible under international law, in connection with any act referred to in this paragraph or any crime within the jurisdiction of the Court;

OK - Lively is a scumbag. But please explain how a US federal judge determines international law.

How do we convict someone on something that wasn't a crime when he did it?

Nowhere has anyone claimed Lively preached killing gays - he wanted the practice outlawed. All subsequent actions were at the decision of members of the Ugandan government.

I'm having a real problem here. If this judge is allowed to convict Lively, then consider the following - The Iranian mullahs have repeatedly spoken about the evils of Western culture, and more than one Muslim has engaged in some sort of violence as a result. And the correlation between words and action is a lot clearer here than in the Lively case.

So - Do we start our laundry list of who is guilty of "crimes against humanity" and attempt to prosecute?

roger — August 17, 2013 at 5:48 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Dee - The Fourth Amendment defines unlawful search and seizure, and our right to privacy. I'm not seeing the connection between this and the freeholders.

roger — August 17, 2013 at 5:57 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Hawkeye -

I'd say that "your side of the mighty Columbia river" comment establishes once and for all that HC is an Oregonian and not a citizen of our wonderful State.

So, all those questions about why he's so concerned about affairs here in Clark County need to be revisited. Sounds kind of like a Carpetbagger to me; I wonder what his financial angle could be?

roger — August 17, 2013 at 6:09 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Roger, I want to know if and what he posts on the other side of the river. think he lays into them also?

luvithere — August 17, 2013 at 6:47 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Did you see the video he posted of his family reunion? Classic HC and his loved ones, except for Letterman, I think they threw him in for a "normal" reference.

hawkeye — August 17, 2013 at 6:49 p.m. ( | suggest removal

LOL. What a video.
I think he tried to insult us over here on this side.

luvithere — August 17, 2013 at 6:58 p.m. ( | suggest removal

I think maybe he read an article in today's Columbian and thinks it's directed at him.

"Feral cats should be altered rather than neutered, study says"

roger — August 17, 2013 at 7:01 p.m. ( | suggest removal

"As a result of this, the Uganda legislature drafted legislation calling for killing those who are HIV positive. Lively claimed to have never called for this, but said he thought it was a step in the right direction." -- roger — August 17, 2013 at 5:48 p.m.

I think that's a bit misleading roger.

Here's what I read:

"After Lively and two fellow anti-gay evangelists spoke to Uganda’s parliament last year, lawmakers there proposed a bill that in its current form would execute HIV-positive gay people. Lively told Fox News’ Alan Colmes on Jan. 4 that he does not support the bill as written but that “it is a step in the right direction.” -- [][1]

My take is that Lively and others have NOT whipped up a frenzy, but that it's a pre existing cultural issue in much of Africa, with or without Lively, Also interesting, is the resentment of medling by Western governments.

"But this time around — the bill was reintroduced this month — it is a bitter and broad-based contempt for Western diplomacy that is also fueling its resurrection.

“If there was any condition to force the Western world to stop giving us money,” said David Bahati, the bill’s author, “I would like that.”

The Obama administration recently said it would use its foreign diplomatic tools, including aid, to promote equal rights for lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender people around the world. Prime Minister David Cameron of Britain has threatened to cut aid for countries that do not accept homosexuality.

But African nations have reacted bitterly to the new dictates of engagement, saying they smack of neo-colonialism. In the case of Uganda, the grudge could even help breathe new life into the anti-homosexuality bill.

Antigovernment demonstrations sometimes turn violent and news about corruption scandals fills the tabloids here, but two things most people agree on is that homosexuality is not tolerated and that Westerners can be overbearing." -- [;=uganda&st;=cse][2]


kn_dalai — August 17, 2013 at 7:50 p.m. ( | suggest removal

roger @ 5:48 PM: Good digging on the Lively/OCA issue. I really think this charge will likely go nowhere and is primarily meant to bankrupt Lively and what is left, if anything, of the OCA. Again, think of the scenario of the terrorist killing one hostage to control the rest of them. Let's muzzle Lively and scare his friends silent. Our government is going to make an example of him, so that others don't follow suit.

Here is a 2010 NYT article about Lively and two others and their work in Uganda:

[link text][1]


manthou — August 17, 2013 at 7:59 p.m. ( | suggest removal

I’m pretty sure the OCA is long gone manthou. You might note that Lively now lives in Massachusetts and has some”coffee place”, my words, that sounds to me like a soup kitchen ministry.

If Lively has encouraged physical harm to others, then he is akin to T. Metzger, a Democrat BTW, who lost a civil lawsuit in Portland, over the beating death of the Ethiopian man, and deserves, Metzger that is, what he got. But you’ll have to show where Lively has any mindset, or has advocated for that kind of thing, that is even close to that. He has not. What he has done is spoken about his ideas of homosexuality. Aside from that, his ideas of using government to make homosexuality illegal, were defeated, as they should have been.

However, your observation that this is an attempt to silence Lively is quite right. The ACLU doesn’t seem to be around on this one. As far as I’m concerned manthou, your statement that “I did say that I would be equally upset if our National Guard had fired on a group of Tea Party protesters.” of August 15 @ 6:31 a.m. rings hollow.

kn_dalai — August 17, 2013 at 9:02 p.m. ( | suggest removal

About Uganda. Eye opening.

nailingit — August 17, 2013 at 9:20 p.m. ( | suggest removal


I've just looked at you comment again manthou:

"Again, think of the scenario of the terrorist killing one hostage to control the rest of them. Let's muzzle Lively and scare his friends silent. Our government is going to make an example of him, so that others don't follow suit." -- manthou — August 17, 2013 at 7:59 p.m.

Wow. Wow Oh Wow manthou. You've really exposed your thinking. Just what was your link to the Sybionese Liberation Army, again?

kn_dalai — August 17, 2013 at 9:21 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Settle down knd. I don't believe manthou was endorsing such, just speculating through the government's lens.

nailingit — August 17, 2013 at 9:29 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Lively is and has always been a piece of crap. The only reason he went to Uganda is because they are the ONLY ones that will halfway listen to him and that makes him feel like a big man. Since the end of OCA and Lon Mabon (another piece of crap) he has no other place to go. He deserves everything he gets.

hawkeye — August 17, 2013 at 9:29 p.m. ( | suggest removal

A simultaneous postgasm with a male avatar. Given the Lively subject at hand, kinda freaky.

Is this what the hoopla is all about?

nailingit — August 17, 2013 at 9:35 p.m. ( | suggest removal

nailingit — August 17, 2013 at 9:29 p.m.

Settle down? No need to settle down as I’ve never been agitated. As I’ve told you before, you play by the rulebook that a good defense is a strong offense. Stop throwing it in my face, which is disingenuous and serves no useful purpose.

Manthou has not “speculated”. She has made definitive statements of her own design, and you’re trying to cover for her.

Here is what I think:

I believe that some are born as homosexuals. This is my own opinion. I do not believe that this is normal in the animal kingdom, but some are also born with spina bifida, for example. While this is not normal to the human species, it is the way one may be born, and to them, it is normal. I care not what the causes are, or the need for any justification. Life is tough enough and I wish no one ill will. It is their life, and government has no business to deprive one of pursuit of their own happiness.

I think it also likely, that there is a little more to all of this. When it comes to gay pride parades, for example, look it up on youtube, where you’ll have to be age verified.

What’s happening here, by the Left, is the suppression of opponents. Government already provides penalties for those who physically transgress against others. This is about suppression of individuals’ ideas, who don’t meet the litmus test of the political class. In this case it serves the Lefts’ side. Maybe not so much the next time.

kn_dalai — August 17, 2013 at 10:45 p.m. ( | suggest removal

k_d on 8-17 @ 10:45 p.m. "I believe that some are born as homosexuals. This is my own opinion. I do not believe that this is normal in the animal kingdom,..."

Maybe not.
Maybe so.

Drift — August 18, 2013 at 7:50 a.m. ( | suggest removal

knd- The only reason I said to settle down, was because you not only used three capitalized "Wows" in two consecutive sentences, you combined a capitalized "Oh" with the third. For a resounding ""Oh Wow"". I surmised your statements indicated a measure of excitability, hence-"settle down". :)

As for covering for manthou, nada.She certainly doesn't need assistance from me or anyone else.

I treat Gay Rights as Human Rights. We're all equal, at least that's the way I see it.

nailingit — August 18, 2013 at 8:26 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Heading out for my shift at Streets Alive in Vancouver today.

Anyone going? No politics allowed, so it will be a break from campaigning. You may see politicians, but they will be leaving their signs and literature at home.

[link text][1]


manthou — August 18, 2013 at 8:56 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Why, thank you for your explanation nailingit. Like I told you last week, you seem different recently. Very nice.

kn_dalai — August 18, 2013 at 9:01 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Your welcome.

nailingit — August 18, 2013 at 9:06 a.m. ( | suggest removal

kn_dalai - My comment came from a different source; if Lively's remarks were taken out of context from the interview you mention, OK. I'm not sure there's enough difference to make it worth arguing over.

There was a program on Current TV yesterday evening about this - A repeat of a 2010 documentary called Missionaries of Hate. It was heavily slanted toward the idea that homosexuality was perfectly acceptable until Lively and friends showed up. Most of what we're hearing now seems to follow from this documentary.

Sorry, but this doesn't add up.

First, it would require accepting that those in the Ugandan government are so backwards and naive that they can be swayed by the white man speaking the word of God. (I'm under the impression that this paternalistic thought process about the Third World countries went out of vogue several decades ago.)

Second, the Lord's Resistance Army - an African Christian fundamentalist movement rooted in strict adherence to the Ten Commandments and a very conservative interpretation of the Bible - was very strong in the region long before Lively and friends arrived on the scene. Their leaders have been charged in the International Criminal Court with just about every "crimes against humanity" charge possible. There is no mention of persecuting homosexuals in the charges.

Anyhow, back to my main point yesterday. The International Criminal Court, which has jurisdiction under international law over the charges being made, is silent on the topic of persecution based on sexual orientation. I can find no evidence that any charges against the Ugandan government for the proposed legislation are in any of the international courts.

So instead we have a federal judge presiding over a US Court hearing a case against him. I've no problem with trying to prove he helped draft the proposed law while physically in the US, and that this may have violated our own laws. But this judge has elected to add to international law, which I believe goes way beyond the jurisdiction of any court in this land.

We continue to fail to learn the lesson that we cannot force our beliefs on the rest of the world.

roger — August 18, 2013 at 9:19 a.m. ( | suggest removal

manthou — August 17, 2013 at 7:59 p.m.

Perhaps that's the intent. But if the government fails to make any of the charges stick, then Lively still wins. And I suspect he's got donations coming in to help his defense. I'm sort of expecting Westboro Baptist Church to help with his defense - They seem to have the legal expertise and funding to pursue a very similar message here in the States, and our government seems powerless to stop them.

roger — August 18, 2013 at 9:39 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Roger, my point was that there is a significant difference between thinking that legislation outlawing homosexuality is a “step in the right direction” which is where I believe Lively is coming from, versus thinking that legislation which provides for killing homosexuals is a “step in the right direction”. (Actually, that seems to be more about the spread of HIV, as you noted above.)

Lively will not accept help from the Westboro people. I see them as coming from two different places. More likely, he will receive help from the American Family Association, I think it’s called. Or some pro bono religious rights lawyer group.

kn_dalai — August 18, 2013 at 10:03 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Maybe we should be asking ourselves whose views on Gays are more civilized, ours or Uganda's...I'd say it's a crapshoot.

///Disabled gay veteran booed by anti-LGBT protestors in San Antonio///

Eric Alva, a gay veteran who was the first Marine seriously injured the Iraq War, was repeatedly booed by anti-LGBT protestors as he spoke in favor of changes to San Antonio’s anti-discrimination policies that would add protections for sexual orientation, gender identity and veteran status.

A crowd led by several pastors rallied in front of City Hall before moving to the City Council chambers, where over 200 people had signed up to speak for and against the proposed changes. At the rally, Pastor Charles Flowers beseeched the Council to “vote ‘no’ to this ordinance, and ‘yes’ to the reign of the kingdom of God.”

Another opponent, Richard Morales, called the fines for those who violate the ordinance “an infringement on our freedom of speech, our freedom of religion.”

When Alva, a San Antonio native who lost his right leg when he stepped on a landmine, attempted to address the Council, anti-gay protesters shouted him down. Before he left the podium, Alva directly addressed the protestors: “To all you people that preach the word of God, shame on you because God loves me, like the day I laid bleeding on the sands of Iraq and that’s why he saved me.”

He later wrote on Facebook:

“Well I just left city council chambers and I feel like crying. I have never seen a city so divided and hateful towards each other. All of mankind should be ashamed. I already spoke and even some of the religious groups even booed me as I spoke. Such disrespect as they preach the word of God.”

The Council is expected to vote on the ordinance on September 5.

nailingit — August 18, 2013 at 10:27 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Looking forward to it. Reading them often for more extensive coverage of the rest of the world already, so I am eager to see what they provide via television.

luvithere — August 18, 2013 at 12:01 p.m. ( | suggest removal

roger- Briggs seems to be campaigning for the other guy.

Buy him a beer or something before you take him out back for a thrashing. It's all about appearances.

[[Mike Briggs · Top Commenter · Freelance Writer at Freelance Writer
He was a Mayor of Camas and a very good one. His entry into CWEDA has been very effective and I expect him to win handily his bid for Freeholder. Mr. Dennis is a very wise, savvy, and experienced leader who knows how money is spent and how money is made.]]

nailingit — August 18, 2013 at 2:40 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Nails, I read that. Consider the thrashing done; He had the temerity to call my comment on the CRC negative, so I pooh - poohed his remarks by throwing facts at him - something he has a hard time responding to.

I still think Dimitry has the best shot of the three of us. My reasoning is that 1) this will be a low turnout election, because not much is happening on the national level, 2) a lot of those who do vote won't care about this, and after looking at the numbers of candidates will just skip it, and 3) I'm seeing efforts by Dimitry to rally his supporters, who appear to be fairly numerous. Dimitry serves on the Vancouver Planning Commission and is known by many from that too. And finally, Briggs' personal endorsement is more likely going to lose Dennis votes rather than gain them for him.

My best bet may be to see if they can cancel each other out. And if not, maybe I'll claim age discrimination by the voters and attempt to have the results thrown out.

roger — August 18, 2013 at 4:16 p.m. ( | suggest removal

"...Briggs' personal endorsement is more likely going to lose Dennis votes rather than gain them for him." -- roger — August 18, 2013 at 4:16 p.m.

Spot on roger:)

Now - if you can only get Yancey to endorse Dimitry....

kn_dalai — August 18, 2013 at 4:40 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Now - if you can only get Yancey to endorse Dimitry....

kn_dalai — August 18, 2013 at 4:40 p.m.

Thanks for the laugh, kn.

hawkeye — August 18, 2013 at 6:18 p.m. ( | suggest removal

from the video library of The Vancouver Side, here are Gary Bock, Jim Mains and Greg Kimsey explaining what the Freeholder elections are:

[link text][1]

For more Vancouver Side videos: [link text][2]


manthou — August 18, 2013 at 7:48 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Yancey is on the ballot - District 3, position 5.

I'm thinking of calling on our District 3 citizens (Manthou, Timerick, ??) to come out in support of Mike. We've said we'd rather this be a council of ordinary citizens - here's our chance to work for this! Mike's opposition is long time political rabble rouser Jim Mains.

And look at Jim's endorsements page!!!

Professional politicians everywhere you look! Jim Moeller, Jack Burkman, Betty Sue Morris, Craig Pridemore, ....

Money names like Angelo, Campbell and Firstenburg.

Out of District rabble rousers like Mike Briggs and Greg Owens!

More reverends than is probably legally allowable - (Hmmm. I wonder how many of these are reverends of churches claiming tax exempt status?)

Has someone truly changed his name to Romeo Canis Lupus?

And Temple Lentz likes him so much, she endorsed him twice!

(Uh oh - Who is Erick Erickson? Hopefully I'm not trying to create a political divide in the family.)

roger — August 18, 2013 at 8:07 p.m. ( | suggest removal

roger: The last time the freeholders met, it was a big YAWN. This time it is competitive and is actually fun.

I asked Jim Moeller why so many sitting legislators are throwing their greedy hats in the ring, but have not heard back yet. I think he will tell me that Liz Pike and Ann Rivers did first, so the others had to join in for balance. :)

Best of luck to you. When can we see your Freeholder FB page?

manthou — August 18, 2013 at 8:29 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Manthou, Moeller has already stated that he pays taxes and is intitled to run.And Roger Erick Erickson is no relation.And also no to Mike Yancey.I don't think he likes me to much.Nail I agree with you.Most of the ex military and current ones that I know could care less about your personal sexualty.And bring God into it seems to turn most people off.Good people are good people regardless of what they do in their bedrooms.And Drift I got your book Thursday.I am half way through.If half of what you write about before you went in is true,than you should be in Walla Walla.That aside it has brought a big smile to me.Thanks

timerick — August 18, 2013 at 9:02 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Florence, time.
Florence is the Arizona big house ;^)

Drift — August 19, 2013 at 5:29 a.m. ( | suggest removal

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