Open forum, Aug 26-Sept 1



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Worry about your own state for once, holyc. Don't you ever have anything positive to write about?

goldenoldie — August 26, 2013 at 7:18 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Nailingit, I want to thank you for the last comment from last week's forum. It brought on a good laugh this morning!

On a side note...It's easy to herd a few cats with a bit of catnip in a pouch, tied on the end of a string once you've gotten their attention. Hmm...I'm wondering if there's a certain forum cat we can herd into a positive mindset.

Anybody have any virtual catnip???

goldenoldie — August 26, 2013 at 7:21 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Funny, they didn't mention how Madore deletes EVERYTHING he doesn't like off of his page. I guess that way (when he signs on again) he only sees positive things about himself and believes he's doing a good job.

hawkeye — August 26, 2013 at 7:40 a.m. ( | suggest removal

No catnip here, just a Schnauzer that loves kitties. So much so that I haven't heard my husband complain since we got her 5 yrs ago about cats urinating on his truck wheels. ;)

ELISI — August 26, 2013 at 7:42 a.m. ( | suggest removal

I see the police finally found and arrested the other person in the beating death of the Spokane's 88 yr old WW11 vet. Police also have in custody the 3 that shot and killed the nurse in Tennessee and the 3 that killed the student from Australia.

Where are the race baiters now like Sharpton, Jackson, journalist, new casters and even those that hold office now? Cat got your tongues?
Wait for it...
Wait for it...1 2 3...

Nada, nothing! Didn't think so, but yet they keep harping about Trayvon Martin and ignoring the other senseless killings.. destroying what Dr King worked so hard for!
They all should be ashamed.

ELISI — August 26, 2013 at 8:01 a.m. ( | suggest removal

I will start. Went to Cascade stattion and saw hundreds and hundreds of people get off a Max over and over and go shopping. I thought to myself, those Vancouver people are really dumb. They are losing business like crazy for not providing modern transportation.

holycrapola — August 26, 2013 at 8:16 a.m.

So did you also think to yourself that you were bitching at me last week about me shopping tax free on your side of the ditch? Or maybe that they want the stupid train to go to Clark College? Yup, lots of shopping there.

hawkeye — August 26, 2013 at 8:36 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Sure thing HC, you only "live" over there when you dock your boat at Who Song and Larry's. And I guess you weren't listening when they laid out their master plan. Clark was it! It wasn't going any farther. Talk about dense. Maybe you should snowbird to somewhere else, get in your boat and head to Mexico. Hell you're so smart, you could be King there.

Now if they were actually smart enough to figure out that it should have gone all the way up I-5 to the Fairgrounds stopping at the transit centers on the way, I would have signed off on that. But noooooo.

hawkeye — August 26, 2013 at 9:09 a.m. ( | suggest removal

roger — August 24, 2013 at 10:51 a.m.

Still looking for Hawaiian salt? The Meadows, 3731 N Mississippi Ave. Portland, has a huge variety of salt. Even the display shelves are make from salt slabs. Also, Foster and Dobbs, Portland has exotic salts, tho think they are more a cheese shop.

jacjak — August 26, 2013 at 9:28 a.m. ( | suggest removal

hawkeye — August 26, 2013 at 9:09 a.m

Sounds to me as if he has a problem with identity. He can't figure out where he lives. Kinda like a man without a country. Anyone in a boat on the river would know if Who Song and Larry's has a dock or not.


He has a stake in the game.

ELISI — August 26, 2013 at 9:55 a.m. ( | suggest removal

So far I have had several good laughs... Is it just me but I have to say I had a chance to go to Seattle last week and wow, there are really so many poor drivers.. I would actually SAY DISTRACTED..So many people on there cell phones. I would like to see the state make it a moving violation so it would have affects on peoples Insurance rates. So you get the $125 cell phone plan and oh boy a $25 incraese a month in your insurance costs...Truckers, gov't vehicles, Grandmas, that was for HC and seemed like 70% of the folks I passed were on the phone...Just my rant of the day..

vanwadreamer — August 26, 2013 at 10:07 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Well, KFC went bust. Why?

holycrapola — August 26, 2013 at 9:33 a.m.

I'll tell you why. Because this kid, Dickenson, got the franchises from his Dad and managed them as well as you would. Paid his people peanuts, treated them like crap and expected them to perform like trained seals. He treated people like you treat people. Look at yourself and you'll know why he closed the doors.

Nobody's pushing you out, especially since you aren't in.

hawkeye — August 26, 2013 at 10:11 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Now they're against erectile dysfunction meds?

///Tea Party to rally against ‘BoehnerCare’ over fight to defund healthcare law///

Read more:
Follow us: @thehill on Twitter | TheHill on Facebook

nailingit — August 26, 2013 at 10:46 a.m. ( | suggest removal

vanwadreamer — August 26, 2013 at 10:07 a.m.

Seattle can be challenging. I have driven there quite a bit but there is no place (that I have driven) that compares to Las Vegas. They change lanes without looking, using their flashers or even caring. If the freeway speed is 60, they are doing 80. They don't see pedestrians until after they hit them and then they don't stop and at any time of the day, 45% to 50% are legally drunk. The safest travel in that town are the bus and a taxi.

hawkeye — August 26, 2013 at 10:51 a.m. ( | suggest removal

"I am not in because swim against the current bud,"

Can't write right either, huh?

Confucius say, those that swim against the current get nowhere fast.

"Light rail, an efficient system, can change this whole area and make it thrive for once instead of been a dorm town and keep this low budget population mentality in charge."

Yes, efficient. As long as you have a direct line and don't have to stop 40 places between point A and point B, like they want to run the line up here. That should only take riders a hour to get downtown P-town from Vancouver.

Argue with someone else, I've better things to do.

hawkeye — August 26, 2013 at 11:17 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Jacjak, Thanks. I found them at a Vietnamese/Asian shop in Vancouver - 49th Ave off of 112th Ave. Never knew they were there. They've got a good selection of all sorts of Asian and Islands food.

roger — August 26, 2013 at 12:42 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Good interview. These two make a great pair when discussing a subject that is often pointed and many times left hanging.

///Lori Welbourne, Journalist, Goes Topless In Interview With Kelowna Mayor Walter Gray (VIDEO)///

nailingit — August 26, 2013 at 1:27 p.m. ( | suggest removal

I never run. I haven't made a statement that needs defending and you can't make a statement that anyone can understand.

As far as running "express trains", they can't do that. Too much traffic and obstacles in the way. Tri-met would kill too many people. Run express at peak hours? I'll bet they'd kill one person a day. What planet ARE YOU ON??? The only way to do that is to run it overhead or on a dedicated street, it ain't happening in P-town.

hawkeye — August 26, 2013 at 2:38 p.m. ( | suggest removal


I'm away from the computer for most of the day and suddenly I'm ranked down with the likes of Madonis and Mielkes. Get with the program, loser. It's now Madonis and in Mielke's Way.

You have your head so stuck in a place where the sun doesn't shine that you cannot even see the failure of the current LPA not only being a failure due to the fact that it would be inefficient transportation to a dead end point at Clark College, but that it would bankrupt just about everyone on the Washington side since jobs are just barely coming back on line.

You are so inattentive to future plans in the works for the Waterfront Project which by the way, includes accessibility to the project zone by wheeled transportation, foot transportation OR by river traffic. Guess you missed THAT one.

You are so blinded by the fact that number 1, light rail is NOT an efficient mode of transportation... proven by the fact that if the weather is too warm, it slows the trains by 10 minutes and if the weather is too cold, slows the trains, even shuts them down. Number 2, light rail is NOT an efficient mode of transportation if the trains must stop and start a dozen or more times from point A to point B. Have you ever thought for one nano second, the amount of electricity and fuel it takes to restart the train from a stopping point and to get to the full speed it needs, only to stop once again? How would that serve as beneficial and efficient? Number 3, must I remind you again, the delay it takes when one of the train rights of way are blocked because of an accident? With BRT, the buses have the ability to maneuver around accident scenes. Number 4, must I remind you again, the delay time it takes when one of the trains are involved in an accident?

Efficiency my a$$!!!

goldenoldie — August 26, 2013 at 3:53 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Now 'crapola...regarding the rest of your diatribe at 8:16 a.m....

Nobody is trying to silence you. You're doing a great job at filling the forum with the biggest batch of BS...and you're too busy listening to yourself and won't even bother trying to listen to what others are saying. Day in and Day out...CRAPOLA...THAT's what you continue to spew! At least you've provided a pen name which befits you.

You never have anything positive to say and you're always on the defense. Nobody else's comment is right if it doesn't agree with yours. Working together to find a solution is possible but when one side refuses to budge...nothing happens.

My reason for saying...worry about your own state is because Oregon is falling apart...Portland, especially...but you're so keyed up in what's wrong with the world and Vancouver, you can't see the good that is happening. Just last week for instance, I brought out a comment about a touching incident I'd witnessed when the family of a hero had passed on. Yes, you said your good points, but it was followed by BS about how all wars nowadays are politically motivated. That glass half empty definitely tipped.

And finally, tell me what war HASN'T been politically motivated and why, 'crapola.

goldenoldie — August 26, 2013 at 4 p.m. ( | suggest removal

hawkeye — August 26, 2013 at 2:38 p.m.

There is one possibility for express trains and it stems back to my original idea when it comes to commuter rail along the UP/BNSF line from Union Station to the Vancouver side next to the port. It would be right at the new Waterfront Project and the antiquated railroad bridge could be replaced, improving river traffic; accommodating high speed rail and even possibly include a bypass route for all port traffic to N. Portland.

goldenoldie — August 26, 2013 at 4:03 p.m. ( | suggest removal

My final comment to 'crapola...

I have no issues with progress...but as long as our local government(s) continue to piecemeal it the way they are and causing clusterf..ks which have become eye sores rather than improvements, I have an issue with the type of progress you propose which obviously has no organization, vision or representation of what our region has to offer with the design.

Maybe you can take your ideas to Haiti. They need all the help they can get.

goldenoldie — August 26, 2013 at 4:08 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Hawkeye and Goldie do what you told me.Don't fall for HC's bait.You can never win.Hawk stop by I have something you might be interested in.

timerick — August 26, 2013 at 4:11 p.m. ( | suggest removal

correction in my comment @4 p.m.

I meant to say the loved one the family lost a loved one who was a hero veteran.

goldenoldie — August 26, 2013 at 4:12 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Tim...his bait is old and dried up. I've said what I'm going to say. I at least give people the benefit of the doubt and try to understand their POV, but sometimes...they're so stuck in the rut they choose to live, they cannot see past the nose on their face. Too much steam coming out of their ears or something. I knew HE'D take the bait and run with it...only proving that his game is a losing game as long as he only tries to spell out the problem but has no solution to offer. Some people...they see only the thorns on the rose. We all need learn to work around the thorns and enjoy the beauty of the entire rose...blossom, thorns and all. Sometimes you have to remove those thorns to make the rose tolerable in your hands. You know the old saying...if life gives you lemons, make lemonade. Well, in the case of the rose...even in the dead of winter when it's withered and dried up, there's still rose hips which make excellent tea...8)

goldenoldie — August 26, 2013 at 4:20 p.m. ( | suggest removal

timerick — August 26, 2013 at 4:11 p.m

Will do.

hawkeye — August 26, 2013 at 4:34 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Let me add something to the cacophonous mix today with sincere apologies on the front end for focusing on one subject lately.

No matter what you feel about David Madore's ideas (some folks like them and he has had some good ones), I am observing a personality trend with him that disturbs me.

When he does not get his way, when someone disagrees with him, he uses shame, intimidation and threats to try to control the outcome.

Shame. Intimidation. Threats.

This is abusive and bullying. Is this how he controls his family, his employees? He just did not learn this style. It is deep-seated and worked well for him, or else he would not continue to use it.

He tried to humiliate Bill Barron and Tom Wolfendale through an accusatory FaceBook public scolding. He openly threatened Steve Stuart a week ago with "if you want to continue to be Board Chair....."

People are going to push back one way or the other with this style. I hope, anyway.

It is not an effective way to govern or lead. I hope one of his victims eventually files a harassment charge.

manthou — August 26, 2013 at 4:57 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Manthou...if you have your suspicions, then why are you waiting around for something to happen? It's good that you display the information which concerns you but if you seriously see a problem, then why don't you do something about it? Just wondering.

goldenoldie — August 26, 2013 at 5:43 p.m. ( | suggest removal

"What about monorails? What about magnetic transportation systems and you are still stuck on a bus???? What about Jacques Fresco transportation systems? What about conveyor belts? What about, what about? Sometimes I think that this area is full of retards."

Yup, and the bus still gets us there at a minimal cost compared to your maglev or conveyor belts (what are those, moving sidewalks) and, AND can change course at a moment's notice. What planet are YOU on? DUHHHHHH

Uh, "retards"? Pot/kettle

hawkeye — August 26, 2013 at 5:43 p.m. ( | suggest removal

manthou — August 26, 2013 at 4:57 p.m

It's what I've been telling you guys all along. His gimmick is using "God" to back him up. If you go against him, you are going against "God". Good luck with that.

hawkeye — August 26, 2013 at 5:49 p.m. ( | suggest removal

I'd rather have the reality we have now than some screwed up 1950 style futuristic crap that looks like it just came off the Syfy channel.

"retards"? Better a retard than a re-treaded-retard, cause that's all he does all day the same crap.

ELISI — August 26, 2013 at 6 p.m. ( | suggest removal

"""Do you know how much a mile of road costs to build and maintain by the mile? What about "construction delays"? How much does that cost to businesses in time and fuel? How about pollution costs? How about accident risks? And on and on."""

Do you know how much of a mile of light rail costs to build and maintain by the mile? What about THOSE construction delays? Do you honestly think the powers that be give a rat's ass about the costs to businesses in time and fuel during construction? The accident risks are there with building an 1800's era choo choo, 'crapola. And the Venus think that's the only answer but thanks...I don't care to be part of social manipulation to suit the ideals of a few who think they have all the answers. They can put a fancy name on fecal matter but it still stinks.

Loo Rail is 1800's technology revamped. It's worthless.

Growth is a fact all right, 'crapola. Detroit in 1860 had a population of 45,619. From 1920 to 1930, Detroit saw a rapid growth from 993,678 to 1,568,662. BTW, they had the largest municipal streetcar system at that time. Between 1950 to 1960, they dismantled their failing streetcar system which BTW, was a national trend. Between 2008 and 2010, the automotive industry in Detroit fizzled. It was no longer the nation's 10th largest city in population density.

July of this year, the population was 690,487.

You ever hear of the Detroit People Mover??? The Woodward Avenue Light Rail??? SEMCOG??? You see a trend here yet, 'crapola???

Detroit filed for bankruptcy yet they're still building on their mass transit system and for what??? For every home that is occupied, ten to twenty sit empty. In Detroit, you can buy a home for $10 grand...and that's market value. The powers that be there continue to bankrupt their city with these crazed "Venus Project" ideas...modern transportation...modern BS.

And what has it done for the people?

goldenoldie — August 26, 2013 at 6:09 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Let's see - As I recall, HC says he quit a decent job and dropped out - now gets by because he keeps his needs minimal - healthy food and a guitar. (Of course, in the past he's had motorcycles, sailboats, a condo in downtown P'Town, five or six properties, and who knows what else - but I suppose bringing all these possessions up is in bad taste.)

So, if you're not "workin' for da man" or producing something on your own, then how does one contribute their fair share toward building this better future being envisioned?

The poor junkie with the cardboard sign at the freeway off ramp knows he's dependent on the good will of others; the only thing he expects is to be treated decently. People like HC - those with these grandiose visions for the future - believe we owe it to them to see their desires are met.

roger — August 26, 2013 at 6:31 p.m. ( | suggest removal

roger — August 26, 2013 at 6:31 p.m.

It's all part of the Venus Project, you know. After reading their "idealistic" restructuring of society which supposedly includes elimination of crime, war and whatnot...

It truly reminds me of the society on the movie "Demolition Man," designated by Dr. Raymond Cocteau....and he even resembles Jacque Fresco, the originator of the Venus Project.

A quote from "The Venus Project":

The Venus Project advocates an alternative vision for a sustainable new world civilization unlike any socio-economic system that has gone before. It calls for a straightforward redesign of a culture, in which the age-old inadequacies of war, poverty, hunger, debt, and unnecessary human suffering are viewed not only as avoidable, but totally unacceptable.


A quote from the Movie, "Demolition Man" by Dr. Cocteau:

San Angeles will be the beacon of order with the purity of an ant colony and the beauty of a flawless pearl.

hehe...even the vehicles are similar!!!

goldenoldie — August 26, 2013 at 6:39 p.m. ( | suggest removal

hmm...Roger, you think there'd be ethnic cleansing and "superhuman" cloning involved in order to achieve something like "The Venus Project?" That's some scary stuff they're dreamin' up.

goldenoldie — August 26, 2013 at 6:41 p.m. ( | suggest removal

I think one of the CC prosecutors (how can these criminal lawyers advise the BOCC? It is technically outside their area of training and expertise) gave Madore an opinion that contradicted Wolfendale's. -- manthou — August 25, 2013 at 7:52 p.m.

Maybe they did, or maybe not, though I really doubt that. Just the same; there is a DIFFERENCE between CRIMINAL and CIVIL. The county commissioners have ALWAYS had legal representation from the DA's office in CIVIL matters. It's one of the responsibilites that the DA's office is tasked with.


No matter what you feel about David Madore's ideas (some folks like them and he has had some good ones), I am observing a personality trend with him that disturbs me. -- manthou — August 26, 2013 at 4:57 p.m.

Just what good ideas do you think Madore has had?


kn_dalai — August 26, 2013 at 6:47 p.m. ( | suggest removal

holycrapola — August 26, 2013 at 6:44 p.m.

Rattled the snake pit???


Keep tellin' yourself that. The only one you'll convince is...



goldenoldie — August 26, 2013 at 7 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Still with the "retards"?


hawkeye — August 26, 2013 at 7:13 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Remember at the fire hall when Pridemore gave his warning about the recall petition - the likely outcome if it failed? Perhaps people should have chewed on that advice for a while, rather than starting the two websites and telling the world what they intended to accomplish. As near as I can tell, that movement died, and Madore is more confident in his position than ever.

I've got two takes on Madore, and am not sure which is the right one (if either).

First, after watching a few videos of meetings, I'm left with the impression he is incapable of understanding anything other than what he wants to know. He continually runs off onto tangents, and blathers incessantly over subtle nuances that are relatively meaningless. He seems to obsess over parts of the puzzle, and never gets to the big picture. But if this was a true assessment, then how did he ever accomplish what he did in life? He should still be working out of the garage if what we see of him is the real deal.

The other possibility is that he knows exactly what he's doing, and is pushing buttons to see where that leads (with nowhere at all being perfectly acceptable). Stuart gets frustrated easily, and has said a couple of things out of anger that he later regretted. Leavitt and Smith are both arrogant SOBs - they don't like being disagreed with, and don't like to feel their time is being wasted. Madore is doing a masterful job with this.

I think this is part of why Editor Lou likes having him around. Madore seems to go out of his way to get people fired up, and this sells papers.

roger — August 26, 2013 at 7:21 p.m. ( | suggest removal

"I gave you *and* idea that could be a solution for a fast transportation system."

Who's the "retard"

"Sorry folks, you are too conventional and too yesterday. They don't call it Vantucky for nothing..."

Fine, you are no longer welcome here. Bye Bye, now.

hawkeye — August 26, 2013 at 7:31 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Schnauzers. My cats are appalled by this behavior.

roger — August 26, 2013 at 7:36 p.m. ( | suggest removal

kn_dalai: Both Multnomah and Clackamas counties have their own county counsel, separate from the prosecuting attorney's office, that advises them and represents them when they are defendants or plaintiffs.

I realize other smaller counties, like Clark, save money by using the prosecuting attorneys for legal advice (yes, I know it is civil law), but I think it is better checks and balances and better practice of law to have a separate department. You get better civil experts when they concentrate on civil law. Prosecutors do best at criminal law. My opinion. You do not have to agree. You rarely do. :)

David Madore did a great job of listening to the winery owners and growers and changed his mind about the initial restrictive ordinance that would significantly limit their ability to serve food with their wine and provide musical entertainment. He listened and did a 180. However, there will be more testimony tomorrow and he may back pedal with some amendment ideas. We shall see. He is caught between a rock and a hard place with this issue. He wants to help small businesses in Clark County (and wineries are that), but he also wants to preserve peace and quiet for rural residents (like himself). He asked very good questions and seemed to hear what the vintners were saying.

He also is trying to introduce a better way of measuring and collecting data for county programs that seems more reliable. I believe he knows what he is talking about and discussed it briefly at last week's BOCC public meeting. He had staff tweak the questionnaire for applicants of permits so that it provided clearer, more specific data.

I also like the way he hands out kudos to county employees during public meetings. He does that more than any other commissioner. However, there is another side to that: when someone pisses him off, the gloves come off and he does what he did to Bill Barron and Tom Wolfendale. It would have been more respectful for him to have aired his problem with them privately first and then with the rest of the Board members in executive session.

He is a bully a lot of the time. His authoritarian, punishing way of controlling people? Ridiculing them, threatening them when they cross him.

I don't like bullies. I don't think they make good leaders. Maybe others do. He's in office and all we can do, if we don't like that behavior, is to shine a light on it.

Chacun a son gout.

manthou — August 26, 2013 at 7:40 p.m. ( | suggest removal

roger @ 7:21 PM: Very interesting dual theories on Madore. He definitely pushes buttons like no other politician I have seen in local government in a long time.

Hansen and Burkman must be stinging from being called "vanilla" by Lou B this weekend. I would like a little more vanilla in my government, actually. We need it to soften the extremes.

manthou — August 26, 2013 at 7:55 p.m. ( | suggest removal

roger — August 26, 2013 at 7:36 p.m

LOL your post made me laugh! Schnauzers are exactly like that, I know mine is. When hubby comes home she dances and goes into full bark howl mode until he gets in the house and gives her, her doggie cookie.

She wants to be friends with the 2 cats next door, but they look at her like she's crazy through the fence. Now the 2 cats 2 houses up for some reason she just doesn't like at all.

ELISI — August 26, 2013 at 8:01 p.m. ( | suggest removal

manthou — August 26, 2013 at 7:40 p.m.

It seems to me that your idea is that criminal lawyers in the DA's office also advise the CC on civil matters. My understanding is that the civil lawyers concentrate on the civil matters, and that that is their area of expertise, and are in no way connected with the criminal side.

Just like when the smaller cities of Battle Ground and Ridgefield engage attorneys on a retainer to act as their city attorneys, (which is put up for bid btw) those lawyers are on the civil side, not the criminal side.

kn_dalai — August 26, 2013 at 8:18 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Manthou do you think it may be the religious aspect of Madore that has him doing what he does.I have nothing against religion if that is what you want.But I put 2 kid through Catholic school because number 2 wife wanted it.These people get in their pulpit and they get their flock all herded in the direction they want.Than they have control over the whole flock.Do you think that is what Madore is trying to do? It looks like it to me.I have talked with him a couple of times and he is very engaging.But I could sense some manipulation.As far as his business goes I think he has probably hired some very talented people to get him where he is at.Just my thoughts.And again Hawkeye and Goldie stop feeding the beast and he will go to another hunting ground.

timerick — August 26, 2013 at 8:28 p.m. ( | suggest removal

kn_dalai: You are correct, I think, that I will never see Chris Horne prosecuting a criminal case and that Tony Golik will never advise the commissioners on civil matters. They have different attorneys for civil and criminal. Just my knee-jerk need to know that we are getting the best legal advice because I think we are going to need a lot of it before Madore and Mielke are done with their current terms. I hate it when litigation eats up dwindling tax dollar resources and that is why so many government agencies settle.

There are two pending litigation issues right now: one for C-Tran and one for Clark County. They make it on the agendas, but that is as far as it goes. They are always discussed in executive session, so we don't know details. Maybe if they go to trial, we will.

manthou — August 26, 2013 at 8:38 p.m. ( | suggest removal

timerick @ 8:38 pm. I don't know, but his faith looms very large in his life. We all are the sum of all our experiences over time and I am sure he is motivated by a sincere desire to serve. He just does it in an autocratic, judgmental "my way or the highway" way. Not a good style if you want to get wide-ranging buy-in from diverse constituents. He will burn bridges and has, even with people who voted for him.

Good advice, by the way.

manthou — August 26, 2013 at 8:47 p.m. ( | suggest removal

timerick — August 26, 2013 at 8:28 p.m.

Actually, this has been the biggest argument by the Left against Madore from day number one. And if it wasn't that, then it would just be something else. Everyone believes in something. Which can be used by others to vilify.

manthou — August 26, 2013 at 8:38 p.m.

I'm pretty sure that there's nothing unusual about litigation. Perhaps you can point out what those litigations are, how they are a result of Madore. How this is different from any other litigations against county government in the past. And how you know that Madore is wrong.

What I think is happening here, is a shakeup of the old ingrained culture. If so, just how does that differ from the Left's idea of change? Remember my statement about how the Left takes it for granted what the color of the house will be? The old "change", has become the new "conserve".

It's all about what the purpose of government is, but none of you has ever wanted to engage me on this question, as often as i've asked it.

kn_dalai — August 26, 2013 at 9:13 p.m. ( | suggest removal

kn_dalai that is a very open ended question.The government means so many different things to everybody.I guess it would be up to each of us what we want our government to do.I am not sure for myself just what I expect of our government.It is needed for many things.I think for me I would like them to stay out of my personal life.People have come to expect the government to make decisions that are better left to each of us to decide what is best for us.I don't know I am going to have to think on this for awhile.I will try to let you know what I come up with.Thanks for the question.

timerick — August 26, 2013 at 9:29 p.m. ( | suggest removal

kn_dalai: We don't know what the litigation is about. All we can see on the agenda for Exec Session in both C-Tran and Clark County Commission is a reference (each) to discussion of "pending litigation."

There is always a pendulum in swing politically. I, personally, appreciate many Republican leaders (Greg Kimsey and yes, Marc Boldt, for example) and like their style.

You tend to polarize folks here on either spectrum end when you label us. There are so many shades of blue and red and purple here and we all fall somewhere along a very diverse gradient.

Have you ever befriended a "liberal", kn_dalai? Or are they just a caricature enemy? I am not being disrespectful or challenging, just asking out of genuine curiosity.

There are Democrats who are way too left for my comfort zone, people who are so far from me politically, they might as well be Martians. I know you don't believe it, but it is true.

manthou — August 26, 2013 at 9:30 p.m. ( | suggest removal

There are Democrats who are way too left for my comfort zone, people who are so far from me politically, they might as well be Martians. I know you don't believe it, but it is true. -- manthou — August 26, 2013 at 9:30 p.m.

For example?

kn_dalai — August 26, 2013 at 9:40 p.m. ( | suggest removal

"Majorelle blue with a phthalo backgound is a good start."


nailingit — August 26, 2013 at 9:49 p.m. ( | suggest removal

You don't know them, kn_dalai. Old friends. Crazy ass neighbors :) On the national level, I often get embarrassed by Anthony Wiener and wish he would go away for good. He does nothing for the party.

Getting late for me for such deep political thoughts. I get up at about 5 am.

Catch you later.

manthou — August 26, 2013 at 9:58 p.m. ( | suggest removal

I don't know who watched President Obama pin the Medal Of Honor on Staff Sergeant Ty Michael Carter today, but for those who didn't and would like to.

One of our own from Spokane!

Quite a Narrative!

nailingit — August 26, 2013 at 10:26 p.m. ( | suggest removal

So this thing in Syria. The Hawks want us to intervene based on having the moral high ground?

Gimme a break.

///Exclusive: CIA Files Prove America Helped Saddam as He Gassed Iran///

The U.S. knew Hussein was launching some of the worst chemical attacks in history -- and still gave him a hand.

The U.S. government may be considering military action in response to chemical strikes near Damascus. But a generation ago, America's military and intelligence communities knew about and did nothing to stop a series of nerve gas attacks far more devastating than anything Syria has seen, Foreign Policy has learned.

In 1988, during the waning days of Iraq's war with Iran, the United States learned through satellite imagery that Iran was about to gain a major strategic advantage by exploiting a hole in Iraqi defenses. U.S. intelligence officials conveyed the location of the Iranian troops to Iraq, fully aware that Hussein's military would attack with chemical weapons, including sarin, a lethal nerve agent.

The intelligence included imagery and maps about Iranian troop movements, as well as the locations of Iranian logistics facilities and details about Iranian air defenses. The Iraqis used mustard gas and sarin prior to four major offensives in early 1988 that relied on U.S. satellite imagery, maps, and other intelligence. These attacks helped to tilt the war in Iraq's favor and bring Iran to the negotiating table, and they ensured that the Reagan administration's long-standing policy of securing an Iraqi victory would succeed. But they were also the last in a series of chemical strikes stretching back several years that the Reagan administration knew about and didn't disclose.

U.S. officials have long denied acquiescing to Iraqi chemical attacks, insisting that Hussein's government never announced he was going to use the weapons. But retired Air Force Col. Rick Francona, who was a military attaché in Baghdad during the 1988 strikes, paints a different picture.

"The Iraqis never told us that they intended to use nerve gas. They didn't have to. We already knew," he told Foreign Policy.

nailingit — August 26, 2013 at 10:52 p.m. ( | suggest removal

timerick — August 26, 2013 at 9:29 p.m.

The original purpose of government, as envisioned by the framers, was to protect citizens against trangressions by others, and against intrusions by foreign powers. Basically, it’s an implicit understanding that you give up your right to seek revenge, so that government will take care of justice. But it did not infringe upon one’s right of personal liberty to seek their own life. That idea has changed a lot, as you will note by the derogatory comments of many, over personal liberty. The Left has decided that the purpose of government is to take care of people. A very radically different idea; as the heart of socialism is that when one is born, they are automatically granted rights to others wallets for their own care. Through government; not voluntarily as in personal charity. And there is much about which I have called the “hive mentality”. Take a look timerick. It is all about centralized planning and control for the “public good”. Very akin to an insect colony. Actually, one of nailingit's links to a Leftist rag a couple of weeks ago, stated exactly that idea. An idea that the state ultimately decides the fate of an individual for the public good. Not about the state protecting one’s pursuit of their own life. If you think that’s over the edge, take another look. A couple hundred years ago, certain people had the foresite to recognise these things. In this age; people like me are laughed at by those who say “everything is different now."

At the heart of disagreement, is the Left’s notion of “economic justice”. And just what does that mean? It’s all about socialism. Bodies, boards, panels and commissions of people, Leftists of course, who decide who deservess to have what. Very akin to the USSR, as far as I’m concerned, but which others will lambast me for. BTW, it was the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. Not the Union of Soviet Communist Republics.

Truth be known, what I’m doing here is staking out a position which Leftists refuse to acknowledge. As I’ve stated previously, a good argument can be made for a government safety net, which I believe in, but which is very different than a cradle to grave welfare state, and is very different than Leftist’s ideas of “economic justice”, which is nothing but envy politics by back seat drivers.

Then there's the idea of unintended consequences brought on by a huge behemoth of government and the abiltlity of any number of factions to soak the system.

kn_dalai — August 26, 2013 at 11:15 p.m. ( | suggest removal

timerick — August 26, 2013 at 8:28 p.m.

"Actually, this has been the biggest argument by the Left against Madore from day number one. And if it wasn't that, then it would just be something else. Everyone believes in something. Which can be used by others to vilify."

(quoting you knd, no need to respond:)

timerick- As you might know this is a complete falsehood, perpetuated by those who believe government is a proper conduit to practice their religious faith. Madore's abuse of power on many levels is the reason many on the left-right-middle-whatever label-want him gone. One of the reasons I classify knd as a religious conservative, (if we're going to label) is this brand of government evangelical acceptance. He's not in my view, by any means Libertarian, in part because of his failure to recognize this. Nowadays many fly-by-nites claim such, and at times, knd does promotes LibT beliefs. Then again so does Sarah Palin. On this level, frobert seemed to articulate Libertarianism a bit more honestly.

When they stay silent and never denounce their party regarding this church thing, it's a dead give-away. frobert and others who follow this Ayn Rand philosophy at least have that much going for them.

Older conservatives are used to having their way with Christian based government, "Everyone believes in something. Which can be used by others to vilify." Take note of the overall acceptance of faith based practice in government. Not only Not denouncing such practices, but skewering others who don't accept this methodology of control through faith, then "vilify" such as a threat.

Bobbo The Clown used to dialogue in this fashion also. This "leftist" thing is pervasive in right wing extremist language, and as the Unibomber used it, it's done to demean and stifle any meaningful conversation that disagrees.

Religion has no place in Government. Our founding Fathers made this quite clear. So many examples. GW had some thoughts..

"I am persuaded, you will permit me to observe that the path of true piety is so plain as to require but little political direction. To this consideration we ought to ascribe the absence of any regulation, respecting religion, from the Magna-Charta of our country." -- George Washington, responding to a group of clergymen who complained that the Constitution lacked mention of Jesus Christ

"Religious controversies always produce more acrimony and irreconcilable hatreds than those which spring from any other cause. Of all the animosities which have existed among mankind, those which are caused by the difference of sentiments in religion appear to be the most inveterate and distressing, and ought most to be depreciated. I was in hopes that the enlightened and liberal policy, which has marked the present age, would at least have reconciled Christians of every denomination so far that we should never again see the religious disputes carried to such a pitch as to endanger the peace of society." – George Washington

nailingit — August 27, 2013 at 12:06 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Greetings from the Eurozone. German bakery customers: dang, the bread is good here. Heavily indulged already. Think diet when back in the couve. The wine was excellent last night also.

Nails, darn good quotes there. Due to jet lag I thought you meant a Bush when you first mentioned GW. Me bad. Be prepared, however, for discussion shortly about how they were all religious back then. Personally, I prefer no religion. Not in government, not at all. Belief is something different. If you want to believe in a higher power, do so. But when I look around and see what has been done in the name of region and what's of course still being done, I want no part of it. Old GW nailed it.
I really don't think that people's biggest beef with Madore is his beliefs. More like with his snarky demeaning behavior, his dictatorial undertakings, and his utter disregard for others. The man thinks he runs his own fiefdom here. He is going to burn out and the sooner he fizzles away, the better for us.

luvithere — August 27, 2013 at 4:37 a.m. ( | suggest removal

nailingit: I am impressed with your ability to express yourself so articulately at such a late hour last night. After 9 pm, my brain goes to sleep.

luvithere: So glad to see you made it to your homeland safe and sound. What is the trip length by plane? 14 hours? Did you land in Frankfurt? Enjoy that good food. My father-in-law was born and raised in Germany and the food he helped prepare for us over the years was, indeed, amazing fare.

Pathetic turnout in East county last night for Vancouver's City Council picnic. Embarrassing, actually. They should have stayed downtown, although the apathy is thick in my neck of the woods, too.

I read an interesting Twitter exchange between Stephanie Rice and Andrea Damewood last night, in relation to that picnic. Neither journalist showed any respect for the politicians sponsoring the gathering. In fact, their public disdain for their frequent story subjects was stunning. I remember when journalists at least made an effort to appear unbiased.

Social media: it is the downfall of so many and reveals way too much about the tweeter, FB'er, whateverer. TMI, ladies. But thanks for clueing us in. You confirmed what most of us already knew.

[link text][1]


I am almost starting to feel sorry for Don Benton, in advance of the much-anticipated Columbian story. Will it be fair? Accurate? Does anyone care anymore?

manthou — August 27, 2013 at 5:07 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Manthou - Stephanie did seem to be quite bored, didn't she?

There's not a lot of connection with Vancouver City Council here on the east side. As an LTE writer notes today, the annexations by the City have been largely viewed as grabs to build the tax base for downtown projects. The main thing we seem to get over here is more roads - often through established residential areas - so the builders can put in more houses. And after years of complaining, we still can't get the street lights synchronized. Anyhow, perhaps Madore is our "push back" against the City?

roger — August 27, 2013 at 6:37 a.m. ( | suggest removal

luvithere — August 27, 2013 at 4:37 a.m.

Enjoy & be safe! I miss the tasty bistro's. And I miss being asked (when requesting water) with gas or without? :)

Please hoist a pils or two for the forum.

nailingit — August 27, 2013 at 8:26 a.m. ( | suggest removal

manthou — August 27, 2013 at 5:07 a.m.

I'm not sure if my brain ever wakes up all the way. I do know at 5:07 a.m. it's vacant. :)

nailingit — August 27, 2013 at 8:30 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Sensenbrenner offered some hope yesterday against this tide of voter suppression wrought in Republican extremism.

I hope the devil isn't in the details. Definitely a story to watch.

///GOP Rep. Jim Sensenbrenner pledges to fix Voting Rights Act in 2013///

nailingit — August 27, 2013 at 8:55 a.m. ( | suggest removal

roger @6:37 am: The tax-hungry land-grabs have hurt this city and divided it for sure. We do have a growing number of citizen activists, with David Madore being one who got elected.

I have never seen such anger and push-back from so many points of view and have a lot of faith in the process. It has to work its way out, but I have no idea of which of the many sides will prevail in the next election.

I wish I could will myself to be disinterested in the outcome. About all I can do is to go with the flow. Whatever happens is meant to happen, but it does not hurt to add your opinion to the information these politicians get. If you are silent, you miss an opportunity to change minds and open hearts, even if your idea is discarded. At least you tried.

What if no one bothers to vote again?

manthou — August 27, 2013 at 8:55 a.m. ( | suggest removal

manthou @ 8:55-Quite timely!

///Arne Duncan Wants Special Education Students To Take General Exams///

(more aptly titled; Arne Duncan gets high for the first time and can't handle it. Amazing.)

I'm not understanding Tom Harkin's view concerning this. Can anyone shed some light? (those well informed basement dwellers calling each other "retards" are exempt)

nailingit — August 27, 2013 at 9:04 a.m. ( | suggest removal

roger — August 27, 2013 at 6:37 a.m

Roger were you here when they annexed from 205 east? We had enough signatures to stop it, but was told by then mayor Pollard.. "Too bad, so sad. It's going to happen wither you like it or not"

We were promised better service by the city, still waiting for that "better service"

Anyway, yes, they annexed this area for more taxes for Pollard's "dream" for downtown. Make downtown a mini Portland as some neighbors called it.

ELISI — August 27, 2013 at 9:14 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Nail special education students are tough to put into 1 category.Some are going to respond well to standardized testing and others not so well.Also how are we going to define those that are slow learners but have the ability to perform higher?I have never been a big beliver in tests.Some kids just freeze up at test time.It does not mean that they don't know the subject.I know it would be hard with all the kids in school,but it needs to be addressed to each individual on their own capabilities.What our government sometimes does not understand is that not all kids are going to go to college.

timerick — August 27, 2013 at 9:57 a.m. ( | suggest removal

nailingit @9:04 am: Yeah. We don't use the term "mentally retarded" anymore for the benefit of those who like it. It is "cognitively impaired" or "intellectual disability." But those who use it do not care about being politically correct.

Ah, yes. The never-ending argument about testing students in special education.

What has had to happen in school assessment is to offer accommodations (extended time; audio; reader/describer for complex charts and graphs; Braille; Large Print; scribe to record answers; computer for word processing; talking calculator, etc, etc) and modifications (audio version). The accommodations are supposed to match the need. For example, you would not offer a reader to someone who can use Braille, but a reader is essential to a newly blind student who has not yet learned Braille. You provide a scribe for children who cannot hold a pencil in their hands, but, for those who write, even illegibly, that would not be a reasonable accommodation. It is complicated, but student-specific.

The rule usually is: if a student needs an accommodation or modification to access learning, they need it and get it for state testing. Otherwise, the playing field is not level. It is not about giving them unfair advantage, which is a non-argument, but one I hear all the time.

To deny special ed students the accommodations they need is to deny them their rights to a free and appropriate education.

For students who are cognitively impaired, the states have developed a "portfolio" concept, which, in theory, shows what they can do on various targeted skills. Teachers hate portfolio assessments, because it is a lot of work for the teacher and they feel their ability to create a portfolio is what is really being measured, not student skill. Another option is to give a 12th grade student the 3rd grade test, if that is what their academic functioning level is. It will be noted that their scores were earned on a lower grade test.

There are as many testing accommodation needs for special ed students as there are students and their ability to take tests independently vary greatly, as well.

Parents can always, always "opt out" of state testing. It just requires a letter to the principal. Many parents of special education students do. If a student does not take and pass the tests, they are not supposed to get a diploma.

More than you ever wanted to know about mandatory high-stakes testing with students enrolled in special ed. :)

manthou — August 27, 2013 at 9:57 a.m. ( | suggest removal

timerick: I am with you on testing. If these scores are used to make or break a student's ability to graduate, we have failed them.

We need to get information from a variety of sources, over time, to adequately assess student learning.

manthou — August 27, 2013 at 9:59 a.m. ( | suggest removal

I'm a little tired of someone here pegging me as religious based. It reflects on their own powers of comprehension. The most I have ever said is that I didn't have a problem with the commissioners having an invocation prior to their meetings. I believe that Congress still does that. If someone objects, I completely understand, and it may be best after all that the invocation is dispensed with. I'm quite ambivalent on the thing, but don't see the harm as some do. I also stated that an invocation covers a belief in a greater power, not necessarily a Christian god. So stop putting me in a corner where I don't belong nailingit. I've also stated my views of putting reason over faith in decision making.

And yes, people are going to believe in something. If one on the Right has a set of values which is derived of their religious beliefs, so what. Some immedeately discount whatever they think as worthless. This seems to be the case with Madore, and many others. You will note, as I have pointed out, that the religious Left frequently cites Jesus or the Bible as justification for socialism through gevernment. You are highly selective and intolerant.

Once again, my own religious view is that along the line of Spinoza which can be paraphrased as "there is one substance in the universe, and that substance is GOD". Pick that one apart nailingit.

kn_dalai — August 27, 2013 at 10:03 a.m. ( | suggest removal

You may want to give that one some thought HC.

kn_dalai — August 27, 2013 at 10:31 a.m. ( | suggest removal

If some think that it is religion that has caused all the problems, you may want to look at Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot.

Then again, there is the religious fanatacism in at least some of the Muslim world, which has exported violence around the globe. Some seem to vilify Christians, while preaching tolerance of Muslims.

kn_dalai — August 27, 2013 at 10:41 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Cool HC.

kn_dalai — August 27, 2013 at 10:54 a.m. ( | suggest removal

manthou — August 27, 2013 at 9:57 a.m.

"To deny special ed students the accommodations they need is to deny them their rights to a free and appropriate education."

Well stated!

timerick- I think manthou just summed up our feelings. I agree with your views about testing.


More than you ever wanted to know about mandatory high-stakes testing with students enrolled in special ed. :)

You'd be surprised! I've always appreciated your posts in this area. My wife (the smarter other half) is heavily vested in this area. She has a couple of Masters and one is Special Education and is currently working in this field.

In the past (as a second job) I've worked part time as a sped (although not in this state) para-educator. Having said that, my knowledge & experience is more than limited, and I tip my hat to you and others who have devoted a good part of your lives helping those that are less fortunate in this area.

My problem with "adults" (or anyone) calling each other retards isn't about the PC thing. It's the implication and net thrown on those with disabilities.

We have our share of humor around the house concerning this topic, but beyond that...

nailingit — August 27, 2013 at 11:30 a.m. ( | suggest removal

"Once again, my own religious view is that along the line of Spinoza which can be paraphrased as "there is one substance in the universe, and that substance is GOD". Pick that one apart nailingit."

kn_dalai — August 27, 2013 at 10:03 a.m.

This conversation was never about the existence or personality of "God", let alone your personal beliefs. But rather about politician's religious beliefs being pushed forward by those in power, as well as those who are reluctant or refuse to denounce such. A category you seem to own.

kn_dalai — August 27, 2013 at 10:03 a.m.

"The most I have ever said is that I didn't have a problem with the commissioners having an invocation prior to their meetings."

[One of the reasons I classify knd as a religious conservative, (if we're going to label) is this brand of government evangelical acceptance.]

[[When they stay silent and never denounce their party regarding this church thing, it's a dead give-away]]

"It reflects on their own powers of comprehension."

Most certainly.

nailingit — August 27, 2013 at 11:47 a.m. ( | suggest removal

On topic at 00:25. :)))

nailingit — August 27, 2013 at 11:53 a.m. ( | suggest removal

This "conversation" is about the way you have pegged me as having a political stance which is religion based, which you have specifically done @12:06 a.m. Your powers of comprehension are quite poor and singular minded nailingit. You're grasping at straws, but I expected so much, as always. Shame on you.

kn_dalai — August 27, 2013 at 12:03 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Nail I don't have any degrees in anything.But I do have a lot life experience.Wife # 2 and I had custody of a young lady 25 years old,she had the learning capabilities of about a 6 year old.We came to get her while my wife was working as a group home supervisor.This was back in the early 90's.She had been abused for most of her life by her own family.We worked with her a lot.We got her to read at about a 2nd grade level.We were told at that time it was impossible for her to learn.It is remarkable what a little caring and love can do for most of these children.We lost her after about 8 years.She was not expected to live as long as she did.I like to think that we helped a little.Our 2 biological children help all along with us.It was a great experience for all of us.

timerick — August 27, 2013 at 12:31 p.m. ( | suggest removal

retard to me means to prevent or slowing of accomplishing progress, hold back..

Nothing to do with mental capabilities. Nailingit, might ask your wife if those she has worked with.. many if not all, each has an area which they excel.

I know of a female that takes taekwondo with my son, her caregiver decided she needed to be able to protect herself due to what happened to her a few yrs ago. This lady has become to be a top notch martial artist. Won many tournaments, fierce competitor, sharp mouthed and quite the jokester. When she earned her black belt she turn to the Grand Master (6 level) and told him she was coming after his belt. She is well on her way to Grand Master. I never have never will underestimate those with mental or physical disabilities.

*So my comment yesterday..
"retards"? Better a retard than a re-treaded-retard, cause that's all he does all day the same crap.
ELISI — August 26, 2013 at 6 p.m*

Means I'd rather slow down progress and be part of than to do as HC does and repeat the same ridiculous unrealistic ideas day after day and do nothing.

ELISI — August 27, 2013 at 12:49 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Oh knd, it's not always about you..

One of the benefits of this forum is that everything is in print. Kndly refer to timerick's well thought post @ August 26, 2013 at 8:28 p.m. and the ensuing conversation. The genesis of our talk. Once again you veered off topic while pointing fingers.

I had a lengthier response, but for the interest of brevity spurred by boredom, (for I know not I or anyone else will ever change your extremist views on this) I'll spare you. :)

Please refer to my post @ 11:47.

It says it all.

I don't agree with much of what frobert says, but at least he steps up to the plate.

"Your powers of comprehension are quite poor and singular minded nailingit. You're grasping at straws, but I expected so much, as always. Shame on you."

Such shaming going on!! :))

There's shame...

...and there is shame.

I personally don't believe this word is applicable, but if you must use the power of words to disperse just cheapens the conversation.

I suppose your post reflects that the "best defense is a good offense" of which you commonly make reference to. Your efforts always involve a demeaning of the person you disagree with.

Try being a little more..knd.

nailingit — August 27, 2013 at 12:53 p.m. ( | suggest removal

ELISI-Everyone has areas we excel in. I tend to think we're all on a spectrum of sorts. Thanks for your explanation about the retreaded retard. :))

nailingit — August 27, 2013 at 12:58 p.m. ( | suggest removal

timerick — August 27, 2013 at 12:31 p.m.

Wow. A ten gallon hat off to you Tim. We need more folks like you and your wife in this world. Your girl was more than fortunate to be in your care.

Sequestration by design is tearing apart programs for our disabled and less fortunate. I can't write our congress folks enough about this.

I suppose some would pen this view this as "socialism".

nailingit — August 27, 2013 at 1:06 p.m. ( | suggest removal

nailingit — August 27, 2013 at 12:53 p.m.

Considering the jabs you have frequently thrown at me and others, it is quite strange, to be nice about it, that you chastise me for being demeaning. You're quite good at twisting things around. But you already know that.

kn_dalai — August 27, 2013 at 1:07 p.m. ( | suggest removal


nailingit — August 27, 2013 at 1:12 p.m. ( | suggest removal

We may not be able to save the world or change a mind, but there is something we can all do, people...and that is to be kind to one another (yes, that includes me too). Tim and holyc have mentioned two acts of random kindness for which they are to be commended. In recent days, a casual acquaintance of mine had endured a major life-threatening medical condition and had nobody around to help while they spent their time in the hospital as well as a skilled nursing facility. It took a bit of searching at various local hospitals to locate the acquaintance and to begin helping them without being too nosy or in being a burden to them. They've been able to get the professional help they needed, but it takes much more for someone who is less than ambulatory...and that is through friends and neighbors when there's no longer any family around to help. This acquaintance doesn't have many friends...maybe two or three...but we've all pitched in and helped her...including gathering of mail or running the person to the doctor or the bank or even the grocery store.

It doesn't take much, folks. Just being there, sharing in fun conversation sometimes is nature's best medicine which helps soothe the soul.

Take time out of the hustle and bustle of politics and the world to remember life right at your doorstep. Life is too precious to carry on in our needless written jabs and stabs. You'd be surprised at what could be accomplished if everyone worked together rather than concentrate on our differences.

I challenge all to perform one random act of kindness today or tomorrow or every day...just because!!! You might be surprised.

goldenoldie — August 27, 2013 at 1:58 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Retard for me means to turn the distributor the other way, opposite of advance. If you retard it too much on a 49 Harley, it will pitch you over the handlebars when you try to kick start it.

hawkeye — August 27, 2013 at 2:38 p.m. ( | suggest removal

timerick: You and your wife made a difference. You are so right. Encouraged and loved children can do amazing things.

goldie: Well-said. Even the Clark County Commissioners got along well today. Really well. They tweaked the wineries ordinance in a win/win negotiation.

Let's hope it starts a trend.

manthou — August 27, 2013 at 2:45 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Here's an interesting little test.

Please, have fun.

hawkeye — August 27, 2013 at 2:52 p.m. ( | suggest removal

goldenoldie — August 27, 2013 at 1:58 p.m.

It's all about love...

nailingit — August 27, 2013 at 3:07 p.m. ( | suggest removal


///Paintings Of Vladimir Putin In Lingerie Seized From Russia's Museum Of Power///

"...Russia does have a law against insulting authorities - an offence that carries a maximum one-year prison term.

One painting showed President Vladimir Putin wearing a tight-fitting slip and brushing the hair of Prime Minister Dmitry Medvedev, who is wearing knickers and a bra."

nailingit — August 27, 2013 at 3:19 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Elisi - If you mean the Cascade Park annexation, I missed that one. I was here when they started talking the Burnt Bridge annexation, and were also planning on coming north of 4th Plain to pick up Orchards and Sifton. As I recall, it was Betty Sue Morris who got her back up - said the County wouldn't allow a repeat of the earlier big one, especially as the city still wasn't delivering on the services promised. Burnt Bridge went through, because there had apparently been a petition from somewhere that met the requirement. But they said no vote, no annexation for the rest of us. Yeah, Pollard kept talking all that business about becoming the second largest city in the state and how that would get more money sent our way. And the counterargument was that he just wanted a larger tax base for his downtown revitalization plans.

roger — August 27, 2013 at 3:28 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Roger I think if I remember right on the Burnt Bridge annexation it was done because of the Burnt Bridge tax district that they put on everyone within a certain distance of the creek.There was a huge controversy over what happened to that money.To my knowledge we never found out what happened to that money.I could be wrong on the missing money but I don't remember hearing anything about it being found.

timerick — August 27, 2013 at 3:57 p.m. ( | suggest removal

hawkeye: I took the test. Here's my profile:

Radicalism 80.25
Socialism 43.75
Tenderness 65.625

These scores indicate that you are a tender-minded progressive; this is the political profile one might associate with an animal rights activist. It appears that you are moderate towards religion, and have a balanced attitude towards humanity in general.

Your attitudes towards economics appear neither committedly capitalist nor socialist, and combined with your social attitudes this creates the picture of someone who would generally be described as a political centrist.

To round out the picture you appear to be, political preference aside, an egalitarian with several strong opinions.

This concludes our analysis; we hope you found your results accurate, useful, and interesting.

manthou — August 27, 2013 at 4 p.m. ( | suggest removal


I wonder......

(don't mind me, just wonderin' aloud)

nailingit — August 27, 2013 at 4:35 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Interesting test, and I can't argue with the analysis.

Radicalism 61
Socialism 62.5
Tenderness 40.625

These scores indicate that you are a moderate progressive; this is the political profile one might associate with a liberated atheist. It appears that you are skeptical towards religion, and have a pragmatic attitude towards humanity in general.

Your attitudes towards economics appear socialist, and combined with your social attitudes this creates the picture of someone who would generally be described as a political centrist.

To round out the picture you appear to be, political preference aside, a pragmatist with very few strong opinions.

This concludes our analysis; we hope you found your results accurate, useful, and interesting.

roger — August 27, 2013 at 4:43 p.m. ( | suggest removal

hawkeye — August 27, 2013 at 2:52 p.m.

Here's my result which came as no surprise to me (I believe in recent weeks, I came to that conclusion on my own without a test and shared it here on the forum):


Radicalism 28
Socialism 43.75
Tenderness 71.875

These scores indicate that you are a tender-minded moderate conservative; this is the political profile one might associate with a sincere clergyman. It appears that you are trusting of religion, and have a compassionately humanistic attitude towards humanity in general.

Your attitudes towards economics appear neither committedly(?) capitalist nor socialist, and combined with your social attitudes this creates the picture of someone who would generally be described as a political centrist.

To round out the picture you appear to be, political preference aside, an idealist with few strong opinions.


Me with few strong opinions??? How did they know????

Thanks for the fun few minutes!!!

goldenoldie — August 27, 2013 at 4:51 p.m. ( | suggest removal

My test
Radicalism 41.75
Socialism 43.75
tenderness 34.375
Tough minded moderate
Jaded materialist
Skeptical toward religion
Pragmatic attitude
Neither capitalist nor socialist
Political centrist

timerick — August 27, 2013 at 4:57 p.m. ( | suggest removal

nailingit — August 27, 2013 at 3:07 p.m.

Interesting lyrics. What I share is real...nothing fake about it. Random acts of kindness leaves a person feeling as if they've done an ounce of goodness to others, even if the recipient is oblivious to the tiny little act of goodness. In defense of holycrapola's experience last made holyc feel good for helping the 93 year old...enough to share the experience a second time with me and now, they feel like continuing on that path...maybe even going elsewhere and spreading cheer. Nice outcome, I hope for holyc. As for the participants in the first I thought I was looking at the Brady Bunch all grown up, lol.

Holyc...I know just what you're experiencing. It is a wonderful feeling and we can spread the good will around...even here on the forum. Just think if everyone in the world would take the time out...even just to provide a smile and a comment like "Good Day" or saying "Hello" to someone...or even just holding open a door for someone struggling to get through with a stroller or shopping cart or wheelchair. It's viral...8))

goldenoldie — August 27, 2013 at 5 p.m. ( | suggest removal

goldenoldie — August 27, 2013 at 5 p.m.

No need for analysis, as I didn't pay attention to lyrics except something about love. Just thought the vid was really weird.


Quite the turnaround holycrapola! What a great humanitarian!!! From ignored Troll to forum Hero! YAY! A total turn around! God Bless You HolyC! You rock!!! You've become an entirely different person overnight! YAY! What happened???

Whatever it is holy, wrap it up and send it to the GOP.

Team up with GBeck, you could make a fortune selling it online!

nailingit — August 27, 2013 at 5:16 p.m. ( | suggest removal

I thought this was a weird question.

23)  It would be wonderful if we could improve humanity using genetic manipulation.

Man. I disagree with the "unsympathetic attitude towards humanity in general" stuff! I hope whoever formulated this test (you Mr. Hans Eysenck?) dies a terrible......damn-there I go again!

"you have a suspicious.....attitude towards humanity in general".

Could explain my 5:16 crap, maybe there's something to it.

Maybe my "powers of comprehension are quite poor" that knd so dearly pointed out....oh my God! If I'm This bad, knd must be a serial kil...............oh my GOD!!!

I'm with timerick on the testing thing. My humanity froze up!

Political Values




These scores indicate that you are a tough-minded progressive; this is the political profile one might associate with a liberated atheist. It appears that you are cynical towards religion, and have a suspicious and unsympathetic attitude towards humanity in general.

Your attitudes towards economics appear socialist, and combined with your social attitudes this creates the picture of someone who would generally be described as a political centrist.

To round out the picture you appear to be, political preference aside, a centrist with few strong opinions.

This concludes our analysis; we hope you found your results accurate, useful, and interesting.

Unlike many other political tests found on the Internet which base themselves on untested (and usually ideologically motivated) ideas, this inventory is adapted from Hans Eysenck's own political inventory which was developed after extensive empirical investigations in the 20th Century.

nailingit — August 27, 2013 at 5:46 p.m. ( | suggest removal

nailingit — August 27, 2013 at 5:16 p.m.

Regarding the video...I agree.

Regarding the shows that we're all as different as night and day (maybe Bette Middler had something going with her song - Night and Day (link below). Of course, romantic epithets are meant for our better half of course but the message is there), although each and every one of us have something in common when it comes to the test and the questions asked.

goldenoldie — August 27, 2013 at 6:10 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Radicalism 72
Socialism 12.5
Tenderness 59.375

These scores indicate that you are a moderate progressive; this is the political profile one might associate with an animal rights activist. It appears that you are skeptical towards religion, and have a pragmatic attitude towards humanity in general.

Your attitudes towards economics appear laissez-faire capitalist, and combined with your social attitudes this creates the picture of someone who would generally be described as libertarian.

To round out the picture you appear to be, political preference aside, a centrist with several strong opinions.

kn_dalai — August 27, 2013 at 6:16 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Nails -- "...and have a suspicious and unsympathetic attitude towards humanity in general." "...someone who would generally be described as a political centrist." "...a centrist with few strong opinions."

Who took the test for you?

roger — August 27, 2013 at 6:48 p.m. ( | suggest removal

OK, I'll share;

Radicalism 63.75
Socialism 25
Tenderness 28.125

These scores indicate that you are a tough-minded moderate progressive; this is the political profile one might associate with a liberated atheist. It appears that you are cynical towards religion, and have a suspicious and unsympathetic attitude towards humanity in general.

Your attitudes towards economics appear capitalist, and combined with your social attitudes this creates the picture of someone who would generally be described as libertarian.

To round out the picture you appear to be, political preference aside, a centrist with few strong opinions.

hawkeye — August 27, 2013 at 7:24 p.m. ( | suggest removal

roger — August 27, 2013 at 6:48 p.m.

Apparently..... I DID!

hawkeye — August 27, 2013 at 7:25 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Who took the test for you? -- roger — August 27, 2013 at 6:48 p.m.

I think it was that monkey in front of a piano, or maybe it was a typewriter, avatar that he uses sometimes.

Winco, has some good deals. Triscuits for $1:58, normally $2:50. (no doubt, someone will take this as a insult, coming from me).

kn_dalai — August 27, 2013 at 7:26 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Fun test Hawk and some very interesting results.Looks like we are all centrist.Must have been a loaded test.What do you say nail are you starting to lean left?

timerick — August 27, 2013 at 8:08 p.m. ( | suggest removal

roger — August 27, 2013 at 6:48 p.m.

I'm baffled. This thing about not caring...I'm devastated. At least a few of us got solid direction. manthou and knd are Veterinarians, go is a Priestess, roger the steward of Pragmatism, and the rest of us are flailing sociopaths.

I've gotta re-think my entire existence.

Right about now a blank slate comes pretty easy.

nailingit — August 27, 2013 at 8:40 p.m. ( | suggest removal

"I think it was that monkey in front of a piano, or maybe it was a typewriter, avatar that he uses sometimes."

kn_dalai — August 27, 2013 at 7:26 p.m.

You mean Eddie. I did have him a posting for me a time or two, but he up and quit last week.

The local rag picked him up.

He loves to work and landed a job writing for Lou at the C. He fit right in.

He told me Monkey Business has never been better!

nailingit — August 27, 2013 at 8:54 p.m. ( | suggest removal

What do you say nail are you starting to lean left?

timerick — August 27, 2013 at 8:08 p.m.

A couple more painkillers and I'll be leaning in Some direction.

nailingit — August 27, 2013 at 9:01 p.m. ( | suggest removal

manthou- In discussing places to move to, Sherwood OR made #5 on this list.

///2013 Best Places To Live In America, According To CNN Money (PHOTOS)///

nailingit — August 27, 2013 at 9:18 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Nail go for the Merlot it will keep you more centered.Works for me.Better than pain killers.

timerick — August 27, 2013 at 9:21 p.m. ( | suggest removal

That does sound tasty tim, but long story short, my Doc doesn't think so. PK's really don't affect my balance or judgement much. As for intermittent pain and spatial healing, Pot does a pretty good job.

But as with much in life, depending on the situation, perhaps the best remedy is to grin & bear it.

On second thought...what the hell am I saying? :)

nailingit — August 27, 2013 at 9:37 p.m. ( | suggest removal

What ever works for you.Hope you feel better soon.

timerick — August 27, 2013 at 9:45 p.m. ( | suggest removal

I'm fine tim. Tip Top.

I noticed you're the only one to have received the honor of "Jaded Materialist". :)

It can't be because you own an Olds 442.

Now if you owned a'd have every right to be jaded!

nailingit — August 27, 2013 at 9:53 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Because of my mild dyslexia I thought nails said (wrote) gin and bear it. Had to read it twice.

As far as the test is concerned it said I should have been a professor. HUH!! In the end it was the label centrist that got me. I'm not very tender either. Hmm

JohnCasey — August 28, 2013 at 5:37 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Fun stuff, that profile. Thanks, hawkeye, for the diversion.

nailingit: Sherwood, eh? I used to drive through there daily years ago to an internship in Newberg OR. Crazy traffic jams. Car-centric, I think. Lake Oswego lite? Worth a drive and a look-see.

Cinetopia: Went to the new one at the mall last night. Sorry. I just cannot wrap my head around the prices. I have tried them both now and will stick with the old Regal on C Street (thank you Elie Kassab) or the Kiggins (thank you Day Hilborn). People crammed in together on a Tuesday night, the woman next to me munching loudly on her smelly, crunchy food. Not my idea of money well-spent.

manthou — August 28, 2013 at 7:10 a.m. ( | suggest removal

"Moderate Progressive."

I looked it up, and I'm still not sure what the heck it means.

Drift — August 28, 2013 at 7:23 a.m. ( | suggest removal

nailingit — August 27, 2013 at 8:40 p.m. I'm a priestess! I'm so special...;P

Good laughs this morning, folks.

JohnCasey...YOU know you're an old softie!!! Us folks in the forum...we won't tell anybody.

goldenoldie — August 28, 2013 at 7:48 a.m. ( | suggest removal

I'm still struggling with moderate progressive as well.

This guy has a blog where he labels himself this.

Romney claimed to be a moderate progressive.

Democratic Underground has extensive discussions trying to figure this out - seems that label belongs to them too.;=132x1368683

The San Francisco Bay Guardian tried to clarify this last year, seeing as how some of their candidates were being labeled as such.

There's a Libertarian out there who claims there is no such thing.

And then there's moderate hearing loss and progressive hearing loss - but apparently not moderate progressive.

Hopes this helps confuse the issue even more.

roger — August 28, 2013 at 9:24 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Try figuring out "tender-hearted progressive."

Madore v Woflendale update:

Tom Wolfendale has refused to continue to work on drafting a resolution with Madore. Apparently, Madore published information that was included in a confidential attorney-client communication between the two.

Wolfendale is not "hiding" anything. It is customary to keep attorney-client communication and negotiations private. Attorneys who disclose this privileged information are at risk for a bar sanction.

Madore is either naive or he does not care. He should not try his typical strong-arm tactics on an experienced and nationally respected lawyer like Wolfendale, however.

Why hasn't the Columbian picked up on this fight? It is going to develop into something big:

[link text][1]


manthou — August 28, 2013 at 10:19 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Just thought I would take the dip as well..If nothing else, I guess I would consider myself a moderate conservative and capitalist..

Radicalism 39
Socialism 37.5
Tenderness 50

These scores indicate that you are a moderate conservative; this is the political profile one might associate with a police officer. It appears that you are accepting of religion, and have a generally optimistic attitude towards humanity in general.

Your attitudes towards economics appear capitalist, and combined with your social attitudes this creates the picture of someone who would generally be described as a political centrist.

vanwadreamer — August 28, 2013 at 10:32 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Has Madore created a crack in what can be obtained on a public records request with his disclosure of privileged attorney-client communication?

Columbian? Anyone home?

Time to consult with BEHJ, ya think?

Can we now request ALL emails marked Confidential: Attorney-Client Communication between Madore and Wolfendale in a FOIA?

If Madore is using it for "discovery" to defend himself in a public forum, FB, why can't the "other" side get access to this entire cache of confidential discovery documents now? The public good is the other side.

Why is Madore continuing to hang himself and the county with his actions? Why are the superhero CC prosecuting attys not pulling the plug on this Machiavellian putz? Or advising him to restrain his free speech rights for the good of the order.

Were is the story, journalists?

Madore's minions believe Wolfendale did something wrong when, in fact, Madore is breaking rules left and right and we, the taxpayers, are going to pay big bucks for his ego needs.

manthou — August 28, 2013 at 10:50 a.m. ( | suggest removal

OK. I'll let go for awhile, but only after this:

Mielke is gone fishing.

Stuart is gone hunting.

Madore is left on his own.

Could Mielke and Stuart know that it might be a good time to get outta Dodge for awhile?

manthou — August 28, 2013 at 10:53 a.m. ( | suggest removal

roger — August 28, 2013 at 9:24 a.m

Wish I could have gotten into your second link, but for some reason I’m being denied access.

These political definitions can get so bogged down in one specific after another, that by the time you’re finished, everyone could have their own unique political ID, just like everyone has their own name.

Far as I’m concerned, there’s not a dimes worth of difference between what’s known as Liberal and what’s called Progressive. I’d appreciate hearing from someone who can explain a difference.

This may make sense if one considers (yes, yes, I know) the Nolan chart.

Liberal is Libertarian on the social issues (government butts out), but collectivist on the economy (government butts in). Conservative is just the opposite.

In my own case, I was also described as a moderate progressive, which I’d guess is over certain Libertarian ideas about the social issues.

kn_dalai — August 28, 2013 at 11:36 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Nail and anyone else if you want to see some nice cars including my 442 go to Cruise to the Country Saturday at Amboy Territorial Park.There will be cars from all over the Northwest.

timerick — August 28, 2013 at 11:50 a.m. ( | suggest removal

timerick — August 28, 2013 at 11:50 a.m

My son is interested in going and wants to know what time and how much to get in?

ELISI — August 28, 2013 at 12:25 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Elisi the cars will start lining up at 6am.If you don't have a car in the show I believe it is free to get in.they will have raffle,games,food,music.t-shirts and several vendors.This is to benefit the 40ET8 veterans aid & assistance program.Cars to be entered in the show must be 1975 and older.I am not sure about motorcycles.They have had them in the past years.

timerick — August 28, 2013 at 12:58 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Thanks Timerick!!

I told him to make sure if he goes to stop and say Hi to you.
Look for 6' skinny as a pole guy (he's almost 25 and looks like he about 16 even tho he has a mustache and goatee)

ELISI — August 28, 2013 at 1:08 p.m. ( | suggest removal

holyc: the attorney-client confidential communication thing is just SOP when there is a legal negotiation in progress. The parties are not supposed to disclose the contents of that to the public. It's not as sinister as Madore is painting it or what some people want to believe.

Ask any attorney.

Madore, always the opportunist, is playing to his base, getting them all riled up and manipulating the message to make the attorney look like he is being underhanded and secretive when he is simply following his ethical guidelines.

manthou — August 28, 2013 at 1:33 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Well, holyc. We shall see where this goes.

The attorneys are supposed to help keep Clark County and C-Tran out of legal messes.

How can a good-faith resolution be crafted between an attorney and a client when the client just accused the attorney on FB of being underhanded, double-dealing, disingenuous and possessing a lack of integrity?

Wouldn't it have been better for a sit down between the two first? What does it tell you about Madore that he took that to FB first, blindsiding the rest of the C-Tran board and attorney?

Everyone hates attorneys until they need one. Wolfendale is top-notch, former deputy prosecutor in King County. I wouldn't want to mess with him. He'll eat Madore for breakfast eventually.

manthou — August 28, 2013 at 1:56 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Okay...what's happened here??? Holyc supports Madore???
Just kidding. I have to agree with you on this one, holycrapola. Attorneys have played a major role in screwing up the system. Heck, look at what we have as a result! They've managed to dig up every single loophole...even generate a few because nobody had the answers and now our government is so discombobulated...half the time nobody knows if they're coming or going these days! The criminals have more right than the innocents...the victims!!! Whazzup with that???

Hmmmmmmmmm...........................................................................our current president is an attorney...isn't he??? And how many other past presidents were attorneys???

Just wonderin'


goldenoldie — August 28, 2013 at 2:31 p.m. ( | suggest removal

By Golly...I think I've found the number one reason why Portland is so pushy when it comes to implementing light rail in and around the entire metropolitan area!!! It's because of their poor ranking for best versus worst drivers. No Joke!

According to the link below, Portland came in 154th out of 194 cities across the US. Vancouver...82 out of 194!!! Portland drivers SUCK!!! No wonder they want everybody on 1800's choo choos!!! (to be taken lightheartedly of course to our Oregon friends and family members)

goldenoldie — August 28, 2013 at 2:44 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Hello!!!! The moron has arrived and he's talking again!!!

Famed sense-talker and entertainer Glenn Beck has decided to thrust a stake in the ground and a sword in the air to declare that -- at least in his media conglomerate -- he will not have any of this global warming talk.

He will not have some leftie-leaning, lily-livered administrator buying eco-friendly lightbulbs.

Speaking on his pulsating show, Beck instructed his assistant: "I fire the person who starts to purchase fluorescent lightbulbs."

"Recyclable spoons are never to be purchased in this company again," he continued.

He also instructed another employee called Stu to send out a memo that says: "Global warming is a pile of crap."

He clarified this statement by explaining what sort of crap global warming actually is: "A load a socialist, communist crap."

hawkeye — August 28, 2013 at 2:48 p.m. ( | suggest removal

holycrapola — August 28, 2013 at 2:41 p.m.

Could it be something happened while at church on Sunday???

goldenoldie — August 28, 2013 at 2:53 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Well, if I can get the credit for starting the conversation/argument that brought holyc and goldie together for a point of agreement, then I have served a full life.

I can die happy now.:)

On another controversial note: Kitrobber (that's Kitzhaber, oops) says that Oregon will have more of a solid CRC alternative plan by Sept 15.

Who needs reality TV when we have such polarizing local politicians?

manthou — August 28, 2013 at 3:41 p.m. ( | suggest removal

I can't even spell snarky names right today:


manthou — August 28, 2013 at 3:43 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Greetings folks! After finishing a couple of bottles of extremely good German wine over here, I decided to read the daily forum.
Did I ever tell you guys you are extremely entertaining? The political quiz was very funny, and the folks who usually end up at each other's throat are best buddies once more.
It's either the vino, or you guys are truly great entertainers. Keep it up, such good reading here late at night.
PS: the bread here. Man....too good.

luvithere — August 28, 2013 at 4:05 p.m. ( | suggest removal

manthou — August 28, 2013 at 1:56 p.m

Actually, Madore has not accused Wolfendale of those things. It is written in such a way (FB on August 26) as to question: IF- such and such is correct, THEN-I think such and such . No libel suit here. Too bad. You can bet that Madore would love such a lawsuit, as it would put the spotlight on C-tran. For your sake manthou, I’m afraid there really aren’t going to be all kinds of lawsuits. You really don’t give Madore enough credit for smarts. Madore is shaking things up, and it has a lot to do with what’s gone on with CRC and decision making by government entities.

kn_dalai — August 28, 2013 at 4:11 p.m. ( | suggest removal

kn_dalai: I actually pondered the possibilities you suggest and realized that nothing Madore does is accidental. I think your thoughts on this are reasonable and credible and certainly less emotion-driven.

Libel suits in this state are, indeed, nearly impossible in this state with the anti-slapp law.

I think its bad form to publicly humiliate your house attorney, but it serves its purpose and riles up the base. You are right here, too: Madore probably hopes there is a lawsuit by the public. And he hopes he can drive Wolfendale out prematurely before his contract ends.

manthou — August 28, 2013 at 4:42 p.m. ( | suggest removal

holycrapola — August 28, 2013 at 3:27 p.m.

Whatever keeps Orygunians off the road...8P

Regarding your friend and taking them to church again on Sunday...

Divine intervention...8))

goldenoldie — August 28, 2013 at 6:35 p.m. ( | suggest removal

manthou — August 28, 2013 at 3:41 p.m.

Miracles do happen!!!

RE: Kitzslobber, Kitzrobber or whatever we call him...I'm still wondering what will happen if Washington State stands firm on their decision not to support any CRC design with light rail. Will we have a bridge with only two on ramps and light rail ending at the midpoint of the bridge over the Columbia River where the "Welcome to Oregon" sign is located???


luvithere — August 28, 2013 at 4:05 p.m.

I wish you many hours of fun on your trip!!! Never fear about the forum bunch...we'll still find issues to carry on in a heated debate. It's always good to know everyone believes wholeheartedly in their stance on issues...and it's always good to take the time to try to understand the other person, too! Enjoy your vacation, luv!!!

goldenoldie — August 28, 2013 at 6:42 p.m. ( | suggest removal

luvithere: Glad to know we can entertain you so far away! Looks like you are having fun. Be sure to take hawkeye's questionnaire and see where on the spectrum you are. Share if you dare.

goldie: Where did I read that Oregon is the state that owns the bridge? I cannot find it now. They are the sole owners of the bridge in its entirety, I understand. Maybe this is why they can propose this phased project by themselves?

Another question: If Oregon only develops the SR 14 interchange, how will that affect the approach to the bridge on Washington Street? Makes me wonder.

manthou — August 28, 2013 at 7:11 p.m. ( | suggest removal

OK, seeing as how HC is apparently going to be getting a little religion, it's time for him to practice.

Bless me Father, for I have sinned. (Quit mumbling Dude - speak up!)

A word of caution - admit to venial sins like there's no tomorrow, but never fess up to a mortal sin. This is harder that it sounds, because there really isn't a proper listing - they need to keep us on our toes. But there is one mortal sin I'm fairly certain about - masturbation. My next door neighbor and pal for two years (Jimmy) (5th and 6th grades) was a Catholic, and lived in mortal fear that he'd get caught playing with himself. Fortunately, there was this blond haired girl (I think they were all blondes there)... but I'm getting off track.

You can be fairly certain that if the Ten Commandments covers it, you'd be better off denying any violations.

Now, there is a somewhat better defined term called "grave matter" - these things have a more of a chance of being considered a mortal sin than not - depending on who you pissed off (or on). There's way too many of these to bother listing - Just consider yourself guilty and start praying your ass off. A sampling, though - "Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are fornication, uncleanness, immodesty, luxury, Idolatry, witchcrafts, enmities, contentions, emulations, wraths, quarrels, dissensions, sects, Envies, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like. Of the which I foretell you, as I have foretold to you, that they who do such things shall not obtain the kingdom of God." —Galatians 5:19-21

There are a few of these which immediately come to mind - contentions (you are quite argumentative), dissensions (more or less the same as contentions - they must not have liked shitpot stirrers like you!!),and immodesty (no explanation needed, I hope).

So anyhow - Bless me Father for I have sinned -- and then start rattling them off - giving details for each!

I figure two or three weeks of this and either you'll be cured of this religion business, or you'll be spending Sundays over in Camas standing next to David in church.

roger — August 28, 2013 at 7:24 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Luvithere --

Hundert Jahre sollst du leben und dich freuen,
und dann noch ein extra Jahr - zum Bereuen.
Darauf erhebe ich mein Glas: Prost!

roger — August 28, 2013 at 7:31 p.m. ( | suggest removal


I've read in several places that ODOT is responsible for maintaining both the river crossing bridges.

There's something in their recent HB 2260 that got my attention:

2) Notwithstanding the designation of state highways within this state under ORS 366.005 and 366.220, the department may acquire real property necessary for the Interstate 5 bridge replacement program, together with approaches and connecting roads, on both sides of the Columbia River. For the purposes of the Interstate 5 bridge replacement program, the Oregon Transportation Commission by resolution may designate additional approaches, connecting roads and related facilities within the Interstate 5 corridor on both sides of the Columbia River as a part of the Oregon state highway system.

That would prove very interesting.

roger — August 28, 2013 at 7:43 p.m. ( | suggest removal


I noticed for months that just before I got to the Mill Plain exit on 205 going south there was a sign posted that said "Your Oregon Taxes at work" This was when they were rebuilding the exit off Mill Plain onto 205 going north and putting a new exit off 205 to 112th. Haven't been that way for awhile so don't know if it is still there. Anyway, I often wondered why in the heck was that sign posted on 205 that far in from the 205 bridge. Just how far does Oregon have rights to reach into our state?

ELISI — August 28, 2013 at 8:28 p.m. ( | suggest removal

roger @ 7:43 pm: Wow.

It sounds like legalspeak for a type of eminent domain acquisition of Washington property by OTC resolution.

manthou — August 28, 2013 at 8:53 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Maybe Oregon may designate money to purchase property in Washington, but there is no way that Oregon can invoke eminent domain on Washington properties by themselves. It would require that the Feds be a go between to play this sleight of hand.

Now this thing about Miley Cyrus. She’s a cute girl and all, but someone really needs to tell her that she just doesn’t have the hard body or athleticism, to be a good dancer. I sure hope someone doesn’t pop in the jaw when she’s got her tongue sticking out. Maybe she can get her day job back with Disney.

kn_dalai — August 28, 2013 at 9:03 p.m. ( | suggest removal

kn_dalai — August 28, 2013 at 9:03 p.m

Miley Cyrus is no different from "Lady Gaga" or Madonna. All of them are lousy singers trying to gain attention by shaking their booties. Wanna act like a slut, OK. You is a slut.

Now go away.

On another note;

People are whining about a Walmart grocery store going in. Big deal. Would they be crying if it was a Target or a 7-11? I don't think so. Freddies moved out, their loss.

hawkeye — August 28, 2013 at 9:38 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Manthou and kn_dalai,

Some interesting reading from The Oregonian which (as usual) gives more detail than the shortened down Columbian version.

As has been noted here previously (manthou?), PERS reformation remains the big target for any special legislative session in Oregon. The Senate Pres is letting Kitz know he doesn't want this topic interfering - that any plan better have all the loose ends wrapped up.

"Kitzhaber said he was asking the Oregon Transportation and Justice departments to evaluate issues, including who has authority to update a property right of way acquisition schedule. He has asked state officials to review intergovernmental partnerships with state and local agencies. He wants them to review a finance plan for a phased approach, vetting potential arrangements with transit agencies, federal agencies, the state of Washington and the city of Vancouver."

The next three weeks will be quite interesting. Gov Inslee and Jim Moeller will (most likely) offer up verbal support, but what will Curtis King respond with? Will our Senate continue to say LRT as part of the project is unacceptable, or are other back room deals being made? And this 15 Sept deadline puts a lot of pressure on Leavitt - his 9 Sept workshop becomes critical. But can he do this without the support of Burkman? And, unless I'm missing something, the C-Tran Board would still have to agree to hand over responsibility for the LRT O&M; to Vancouver.

I'm not seeing this happening. What I see as more likely is that the Dems in both states will mount a campaign over the next year, highlighting every I5 bridge mishap or backup, and claim they did everything in their power to build the new bridge. Sen Benton and Toms are the obvious targets (actually, I think Toms is up for reelection this year) - maybe a couple of others to get a decent majority. If this works, then expect Patty Murray to "miraculously" push the CRC back to the top of the funding list. And if not, then they'll build anyhow - soaking the toll payers on both I5 and (with USDOT support) the I205.

roger — August 29, 2013 at 5:43 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Wow, thunder and lightning this morning with lots of rain. What a nice change. My rain gauge says .33 inches in the last 24 hours. Thought the T&L; would freak out the cat but he still sits in the window watching to see if something is going to move.

hawkeye — August 29, 2013 at 6:22 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Elisi, I don't recall seeing that sign, but I rarely use I205 to get to Mill Plain (112th Ave is convenient enough). I've seen similar signs at the 4th Plain/SR500 ramps, but I'm pretty sure they said Highway dollars at work. Who knows. We're paying for the new 38th Street ramps and the new Salmon Creek interchange with WA State money, and there were a whole lot of other "little" projects for our area in the last Trans bill (2011, I think) that I didn't pay a lot of attention to.

roger — August 29, 2013 at 6:29 a.m. ( | suggest removal

If the lawyers are supposed to guide city and county reps from tripping all over themselves they why in hell aren't they telling the members to stay away from jumping into bed with the Tri-Met and the Max boondoggle???

These idiots, who think it's okay to do this, are hell bent on destroying our livability in this county. Instead of looking for ways to fund O&M; for LOO-RAIL they should be looking at what the hell we will be in for monetarily wise.

If those same idiots take us down this road will we be able to sue them for malfeasance of duty to our community?? I certainly hope so. This fiasco needs to be nipped in the bud!! Yes I called them idiots. So what? if the description fits ...

I drove over to P-Town for two morning this week. It still is a cluster when you get to the Mill Plain exit. After that is slows down dramatically. Why in hell can't the engineers see that the city and the SR-14 combined entrance to I-5 South needs to be re-routed to come in at the Mill Plain south is beyond me. This should have been done when the interchange was reworked over 25 years ago.

JohnCasey — August 29, 2013 at 6:32 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Washington's PeaceHealth's layoffs as seen through the pen of Steve Duin (Oregonian). We have handed our healthcare to insurance companies and executives in suits.

How can we fear the ACA? How can it be worse than this?

[link text][1]


manthou — August 29, 2013 at 8:13 a.m. ( | suggest removal

kn_dalai — August 28, 2013 at 11:36 a.m.

Google is your friend.

hawkeye — August 28, 2013 at 9:38 p.m.

Great Limbaugh impersonation.

///Anti-war Democrats speak up on Syria///

Rep. Barbara Lee (D-Calif.) on Wednesday circulated a letter among liberal Democrats — 12 have signed on so far — that asked Obama to “seek an affirmative decision of Congress prior to committing any U.S. military engagement to this complex crisis.”
“Let’s be clear that the letter is calling for a specific action: debate,” said Lee, a former co-chairwoman of the Congressional Progressive Caucus. “Congress must assert our authority on this issue; that’s a bipartisan cause.”

Read more:

nailingit — August 29, 2013 at 8:30 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Madore and Wolfendale have reached some sort of accord and finally produced a resolution that will be considered by the C-Tran Board.

Madore's FB posting about this contains NO disparaging remarks. Good call, DM. Good call.

The resolution is here:

[link text][1]


manthou — August 29, 2013 at 8:41 a.m. ( | suggest removal

///Authorization for action in Syria///

If the United States is able to decide for itself — or with the help of friendly states — when international law may be enforced with force, everyone else may do the same. When Russia intervened in Georgia in 2008, it cited humanitarian concerns and the “responsibility to protect” peacekeepers and Russian citizens. The international community quickly rejected these arguments, as well as claims that Russia was acting in self-defense. But if the United States may intervene in Syria without Security Council authorization for humanitarian purposes, why couldn’t Russia intervene in Georgia?


The United States could begin by cutting off all contracts to purchase military supplies from Rosoboronexport, the state-owned Russian arms dealer that has provided many of the weapons behind Assad’s atrocities and from whom the United States has purchased weapons to supply Afghan forces.

Military force is not guaranteed to work, nor is it the United States’ only option in Syria. Alternatives include broader economic sanctions to disrupt the supply chain on which the Syrian government relies to carry out its attacks on civilians; freezing the assets of Syrian government officials and relevant officials around the world; and stepping up support for opposition forces. These measures would require time to build international support, but they might prove more effective in the long term.

The United States is on the precipice. If it uses force on its own or with a cobbled-together “coalition of the willing,” it will undermine the prohibition on war that has been the bedrock of the post-World War II era. Assad’s actions in Syria are terrible, but breaking international law by intervening without Security Council approval would send us all down a road that could lead to even worse.

Read more @

nailingit — August 29, 2013 at 9:22 a.m. ( | suggest removal

manthou, roger and anybody else who wants to discuss kitzrobber and the CRC...

According to 'dreaded' Wikipedia, Oregon and Washington had a joint venture with the original bridge, Oregon funded $1.2 million and Washington funded $500K. (GEEZ, can you imagine if that was all it took to pay for the crossing project today???)

My opinion...that gave Oregon the majority rule in decision making...probably why they have the task of maintenance and operations. Today, they want this to be a joint financial venture in replacement, yet Oregon wants control of what, when and where they will invest since Washington said "No way, John Boy!" (in their own words of course, lol)

It is also my opinion that with the original investment being a lopsided investment, that Oregon does have an unfair advantage over Washingtonians and with Ray Lahood's (or whoever will take his place) support, they just might get what they want no matter what folks like Herrera, Benton and King (and the opposition voters of Clark County) have to say. So if they want that crossing equipped with light rail, they will have to find a way to build it without Clark County taxes funding it...but in the long run, that might include the original high-priced tolls the anti-CRC group has been mentioning. Either way, Clark County will have to pay for the crossing which truly hasn't been the problem. What has been the problem is the fact that Oregon has dictated what would be on the bridge...and we'd be the ones to pay for it. Another food for thought...every time TriMet raises their fares, C-Tran is close behind with a fare increase...something to do with a bi-state agreement between the two transit agencies.

Either way...anybody who has to cross the river to work, you're going to pay triple time for any crossing whether it be I-5, I-205 or a 192nd St. crossing.

No WONDER Jim Moeller is in complete support of whatever Oregon decides to go for. I guess we will all have to wait for the USCG final decision on the 30th of next month. I hope the Columbian will have it as breaking news and have full coverage no matter the result.

Oh BIG sigh.................................................................................!!!

goldenoldie — August 29, 2013 at 9:31 a.m. ( | suggest removal

It makes me ill to think the Syrian Government had poisoned the children with chemical warfare...but it makes me even more ill to think of what the repercussions will be if any missiles are launched in retaliation for what has happened in recent days. Will the UN have enough data to conclude that this was indeed an attack on the people by the government or was this a smear job by those in opposition trying to frame the new leadership?

The videos presented on TV and the internet are quite graphic...children and adults on the floor with vacant stares, convulsing. Dead bodies scattered throughout homes and streets...

Oh Lord. What do they have to gain...for the needless death and injury of the innocents???

God (insert your preference here) Help Us All!!!

goldenoldie — August 29, 2013 at 9:38 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Miss Stephanie Rice...was it something I said yesterday???


goldenoldie — August 29, 2013 at 9:40 a.m. ( | suggest removal

goldie @ 9:40 am: We scoop the Columbian on here all the time. :)

It might be because the reporters actually have to take time to write and edit an ethical piece of journalism and our posts on here are short and sweet and unedited opinion-laded news snapshots.

Who knows?

I am still waiting on the Madore attack on Wolfendale article anywhere. I'd accept a blog post at this point. The fallout is still not fully done and is playing out.

Carry on......:)

manthou — August 29, 2013 at 10:31 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Has Religion given us a baseline for ethical behavior? Does Christianity=Totalitarianism?

Perusing the internet for something else and came across this.

Seven and half minutes worth your time.

nailingit — August 29, 2013 at 11:12 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Has Religion given us a baseline for ethical behavior?

IMO yes, check out the Ten Commandments

Does Christianity=Totalitarianism?

Only for the extremist like the Westboro Baptist.

Look at dictator Benito Mussolini and his oppressive single party government. Do we really want that?? NOOOO!!!

ELISI — August 29, 2013 at 12:16 p.m. ( | suggest removal

ELISI- One of Hitchen's points, is that we as a people already have a sense of right & wrong. That humans already possess this intrinsic value. That we knew murder (as well as other "sins") were wrong long before they were supposedly written on a stone tablet.

As he pointed out, is it ethical to believe we can "scapegoat" our responsibilities by placing them on someone else's back? ? I might ask, what does this teach us as a society, let alone the underlying lessons which are being taught to our kids Sunday's and at home?

In a very real way, we use religion (at least psychologically) to absolve ourselves of any wrongdoings simply by confessing. Hell, most religions even promise a heavenly eternal existence merely by stating what we feel are wrongdoings in our lives.

In the real world, actions define culpability. In the religious world, actions define if a need for forgiveness is needed, or if a deed is rewarded, and God is the final word.

Regarding this, many times in the abstract religion becomes a conduit for persecution and warmongering.

nailingit — August 29, 2013 at 12:52 p.m. ( | suggest removal

*That we knew murder (as well as other "sins") were wrong long before they were supposedly written on a stone tablet.*

Did the human race really know that before?? I don't know I'm not THAT

*is it ethical to believe we can "scapegoat" our responsibilities by placing them on someone else's back?*

My answer to that is NO. This is where I even have problem with psychiatry. Few yrs ago there was a trend where people were being told that all their problems/actions were either someone else's or parents fault.. sorry I don't buy that.
I firmly believe you take responsibility for your own actions and problems.

*Hell, most religions even promise a heavenly eternal existence merely by stating what we feel are wrongdoings in our lives.*

nailingit, it isn't THAT simple..some may think so, but it isn't.
By confessing your sin/s to God, one must also turn from those sins and not comment them again and have Faith that you are forgiven. If we fail and sin again, (that we do in cases) we can go before God and ask forgiveness after all God is the God of second chances.

Let me ask you this..when your children were small, how many times did you have to tell them no, stop doing that, that whatever was not acceptable before they finally learned not to do or say whatever it was? Yet each time you forgave them, still loved them no matter what.

*Regarding this, many times in the abstract religion becomes a conduit for persecution and warmongering.*

Again with some extremist I would agree, but, for most Christians, not at all.

ELISI — August 29, 2013 at 1:34 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Glad to see Boehner sides with Rep Lee on talking and taking this slow. Wonder how many more will come aboard with this. RINO McCain wants to go in guns blazing.

WASHINGTON (AP) — President Barack Obama has briefed House Speaker John Boehner on Syria in a conversation in which the Republican leader pressed the president to make the case to the nation and Congress for military action.

A spokesman for Boehner, Brendan Buck, said in a brief statement on Thursday that the speaker questioned the president about issues he raised in a letter on Wednesday.

Among Boehner's concerns are the legal justification for any military strike, the overall policy and precedent and the objective.

Buck said only Obama can answer those questions, and it was clear that additional conversations, consultation with Congress and communication with the nation were necessary.

ELISI — August 29, 2013 at 3:03 p.m. ( | suggest removal

The House of Commons on Thursday evening rejected a motion from Prime Minister David Cameron to endorse British participation in military action in Syria, potentially costing President Barack Obama a key ally in the effort to punish the Bashar Assad regime’s reported use of chemical weapons.

Read more:

So if this stands, we would be going alone, not a good idea.

ELISI — August 29, 2013 at 3:23 p.m. ( | suggest removal


If they ever build the bridge, it should be built like the Woodrow Wilson Bridge.

It should be built so that 95% of river traffic can pass underneath and then the other 5% can wait for a night opening.

Oh, and forget the Light Rail and the mitigation payments.

hawkeye — August 29, 2013 at 5:15 p.m. ( | suggest removal

ELISI — August 29, 2013 at 3:23 p.m

Let Syria be Syria. Until they start hurting Americans, leave them be.

Oh, and stop sending them money for nothing.

hawkeye — August 29, 2013 at 5:19 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Hawkeye I agree. Leave 'em alone.

But I see Obama isn't listening to anyone..

U.S. deploys fifth warship near Syria

WASHINGTON -- The Pentagon is moving a fifth warship armed with cruise missiles to the eastern Mediterranean Sea, giving the U.S. more firepower for a possible attack on Syria in response to alleged use of chemical weapons, a defense official said.

The guided-missile destroyer Stout is expected to arrive in the area Thursday, joining four other missile-carrying U.S. destroyers within range of Syria.,0,502572.story

ELISI — August 29, 2013 at 6:53 p.m. ( | suggest removal

This ain't going away. Money aside, the comment section isn't quite as vitriolic as it used to be concerning this. I think many who were against this project, were sad to see it end! Those who spent a good portion of their lives as wannabe civil engineers were left empty. Time for them to get fired up again! :))

It's being proposed Washington bridge crossers will pay onerous tolls, while OR residents will cross on the cheap?!? ;)

nailingit — August 29, 2013 at 7:06 p.m. ( | suggest removal

///NSA paying U.S. companies for access to communications networks///

The documents offer a rare view of a secret surveillance economy in which government officials set financial terms for programs capable of peering into the lives of almost anyone who uses a phone, computer or other device connected to the Internet.

Although the companies are required to comply with lawful surveillance orders, privacy advocates say the multimillion-dollar payments could create a profit motive to offer more than the required assistance.

“It turns surveillance into a revenue stream, and that’s not the way it’s supposed to work,” said Marc Rotenberg, executive director of the Electronic Privacy Information Center, a Washington-based research and advocacy group. “The fact that the government is paying money to telephone companies to turn over information that they are compelled to turn over is very troubling.”

nailingit — August 29, 2013 at 7:38 p.m. ( | suggest removal

More on the hypocrisy of faithful, honest Christian David Madore: What his FB rant about Tom Wolfendale does not tell his constituents:

1. Labeling emails between a client (Madore and C-Tran Board) and their attorney (Tom Wolfendale) which give and receive legal advice are usually considered "privileged and confidential attorney-client communication." Unless a client provides a waiver, these negotiations-in-progress, should not be shared. David Madore cannot provide a waiver on behalf of the entire board.

2. Disclosing "privileged and confidential" information to the public is a violation of the C-Tran Policies and Ethics. It is a violation of the WA State Bar's Attorney. If Mr. Wolfendale had published details of these communications on a FB page, he would likely face serious WA State Bar sanctions.

3. David Madore has failed to disclose these important details on his FB rant against Tom Wolfendale and seems to be happy to let his constituents erroneously believe that he reigned an unethical attorney in who was attempting to be crafty, secretive and opaque, when he is an attorney following his professional best practices guidelines.

Hooray! David Madore is the hero of the day! Tom Wolfendale must go! What did we ever do without Madore to dictate the truth to us? At the expense of the truth and the expense of a professional's reputation, Madore has self-promoted. Again.

The hypocrisy:

Madore rails against the press for cherry-picking facts and leaving out important details to spin the tale in a biased fashion. Yet he did this himself when it suits his political needs.

Lies of omission are still sins, I think. WWJD, David?

manthou — August 30, 2013 at 7:57 a.m. ( | suggest removal

This one even surprises me a bit. If for nothing else, great optics GOP. Today, Lincoln wouldn't be welcome in his own party.

///GOP leader chose oil industry over MLK marchers///

There are 233 Republicans in the House of Representatives, 46 in the Senate and 30 in governor’s mansions across the country. Guess how many made the effort to appear at Wednesday’s giant rally commemorating the 50th Anniversary of the March on Washington. Zero.

Not a single Republican elected official stood on the steps of the Lincoln Memorial on Wednesday with activists, actors, lawmakers and former presidents invited to mark the 50th anniversary of the March on Washington — a notable absence for a party seeking to attract the support of minority voters.

Read more @

nailingit — August 30, 2013 at 8:26 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Nail I think you all know how I feel about the CRC.But right now the way things are I think it might be better to sit back and see what Oregon does.It does not sound like their elected ones are to eager to move forward.Just my thought.I am more worried about what is going to happen in Syria.I would hope our President does not get us involved in another needless war.Also this whole surveillance thing bothers me.I'm not to worried about anything I do but it looks like one more right that we are losing.The way things are going we all will be marching around like good little government serfs.

timerick — August 30, 2013 at 8:26 a.m. ( | suggest removal

holyc: I love it that you, of all people, are giving me good advice to calm down. :)

Aren't I allowed a rant once in awhile?

Really, this isn't about attorneys. There are good ones and bad ones. I know you have a beef, likely legitimate, with Clark County and how they treated you as a contractor. However, if the C-Tran Board had any concerns about Mr. Wolfendale, there are procedures they can use to terminate his contract, with full due process.

This is about lies of omission for political gain and hypocrisy from David Madore. That needs to see the full light of day, just as much as C-Tran process. I am all for public disclosure and fight for it.

If C-Tran wants to make changes to their adopted policies and ethics, they can do that. Right now, it is against policy to disclose privileged and confidential information.

Right now, it is against WA State Bar rules or an attorney to do the same, without a client waiver.

Madore's FB rant, which leaves out critical facts, is a bigger deal than most people realize. For me, it reveals his true character and how gullible and easily fooled he knows his voter base is. He appears very manipulative and dishonest, like most politicians.

What's the big deal? We need to hold these clowns accountable, even ones we think are going to save us from expensive public transportation Tom Foolery. They need to follow the rules, too.

Remember: one alert citizen took down Langley's mayor, a man who was in politics for 40 years. Only one.

Hey, holyc: that could be you someday. :)

manthou — August 30, 2013 at 8:43 a.m. ( | suggest removal

timerick — August 30, 2013 at 8:26 a.m.

I agree with you about the CRC. It's interesting it's still alive after all this. Also in total agreement about Syria. Where was our "moral outrage" when we facilitated the gassing of Iranians, or genocide in Rwanda just to name a couple.

On the surveillance thing, I think we are one attack away from losing what privacy we have. (which seems to be little) Imagine what another 9/11 would do. Obama has soldiered on with continuing the Bush/Cheney vision for America, enriching corporate moguls at the expense of American lives and treasure. I don't think that's his motivation or desire, (as I think it was with Cheney) but it's playing out that way.

The industrial war machine has an inertia all it's own and no one man can stop it. It's bigger than Obama for sure. Until we fill Congress with peaceniks and well meaning people, it's going to be a hard road for any President to overcome. imo. :)

If Prez Obama wants to continue the drone striking slaughter of innocents, and lob missiles into countries we're not at war with, (without congressional consent nonetheless) then at least he should consider handing back the Nobel Peace prize. He's not worthy of it.

A big problem is, when Republicans are in charge of our war machine, everything goes to hell.

nailingit — August 30, 2013 at 8:51 a.m. ( | suggest removal

timerick: I agree on stepping back and watching how the CRC Oregon project goes. It will make September a heated month, politically. Lots of interesting fights ahead and much fodder for discussion here, I predict.

The majority of the public does not want the US to become involved in Syria. Some people are worried about how this foreign conflict will harm our security in the US, but don't want to spend money on another foreign war. When the US gets involved, things usually escalate.

Many of us have been screaming about government privacy violations since the Patriot Act was passed. Just that name is a PR ploy. For instance, it implies that any citizen against it is not a patriot. Bull. It has just taken a long time for the truth to reach critical mass and we keep learning more and more.

Why do we know about this, holyc? Because some brave citizens stood up to the Man and demanded accountability.

manthou — August 30, 2013 at 8:53 a.m. ( | suggest removal

"and how they treated you as a contractor."

manthou — August 30, 2013 at 8:43 a.m.


nailingit — August 30, 2013 at 8:54 a.m. ( | suggest removal

I have to agree with HC somewhat on the Syria thing.Only I say back off.But if we don't than hit that whole area with everything we have.Than call in the paving companys and make a parking lot out of the Middle East.Has that part of the world ever not had a war of some kind going?Religion has really worked good for them hasn't it.

timerick — August 30, 2013 at 9:07 a.m. ( | suggest removal

timerick- Why not (aside from Israel and to the point it affects national security) leave them alone?

We talk about slaughtering 100's of millions (the parking lot thing) because.....why?

No offense intended, but I think this rationale is part of the problem. We need to remember these folks have families, jobs, interests, they're human, just like us. No less, no more.

Imagine if the roles were reversed, and the Middle East held all the cards. Can't we all just get along?

Until then, mass murder (although in some context very American) is not a great option.

Anyway, imagine the political fallout if months later we find the rebels are gassing some of their own to garner Military support for their cause.

This potential war action should at least have a vote before Congress. Britain pulled out for a reason.

"Has that part of the world ever not had a war of some kind going?"

Have we?

nailingit — August 30, 2013 at 9:30 a.m. ( | suggest removal

*This potential war action should at least have a vote before Congress. Britain pulled out for a reason.*

Does Iraq ring a bell?

That was the answer my son got from his friends from Britain last night.

ELISI — August 30, 2013 at 9:41 a.m. ( | suggest removal

nailingit @ 8:54 am: I remember holyc reporting that he was hired for his IT/computer programming skills by Clark County at one time. He also reported that he was not happy with what he saw and how he was treated. Our own resident Mr. Snowden? :))))

holyc: If I misunderstood your assertion, please correct me. I do not like to promote inaccuracies.

manthou — August 30, 2013 at 9:54 a.m. ( | suggest removal

timerick-ELISI-et al-

Sec Kerry is speaking about Syria in a few minutes.

I for one would like to see where members of Congress stand on this. We need a vote. This is a Democracy, and from what I can see, going it alone has illegal implications.

The calls for Obama's impeachment from the right have been as ridiculous as Trump's birtherism antics.

Would hate to see them get any teeth to this thought.

I'm sure some on the right are frothing at the mouths waiting to impeach Obama if he goes it "alone".

Even though many on the right would love not only to see this action taken, but would endorse much more militarily .

Especially those whose states are heavily invested in war profiteering. ;(

nailingit — August 30, 2013 at 9:56 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Nail I understand what you are saying about lives of the citzens.I realize they have families just like the rest of us.The difference being is we have not tried to kill our own just because they have a different religion.Yes we have been at a war somewhere forever.Partly because our government wants all countries to be like us.It is never going to happen.And our countries economy seems to revolve around the war machine.If we aren't using it we are selling it to others.How to stop this,I don't know.As long as there are people that have different view points I don't see anything changing.Do we pull back and let things happen or do we step in and sacrifice more of our young men and women.Give me a idea of how to stop all this carnage.I am willing to listen.

timerick — August 30, 2013 at 10:10 a.m. ( | suggest removal


Yesterday I posted a link that talked about Rep. Lee and her letter opposing going around and at the time she had 12 signatures.

I also posted a link to Boehner's briefing with Obama with Boehner asking Obama to think, ask, discuss actions on Syria before action.

If there are those screaming impeachment, not any different than when Bush went to Iraq. Will we also see dummies with Obama's face on them burned on a cross/stake? Will we see crowds protesting and shutting down business's and freeways like we did when Bush went to Iraq?

I lean right, but I don't want Obama to do this alone, not without UN and congress's approval. I don't want military involvement if possible, but if it come down to military action, then other countries best be there also.
I read this morning that France is on board, IMO yeah they say that now, but watch them run if this does go to military action.

ELISI — August 30, 2013 at 10:18 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Solid speech from Kerry. If the Arab league is on board as well as the U.N., and the delivery of chemicals is without a doubt determined to come from Assad's regime, personally I'm not strongly opposed to a limited degree of involvement for humanitarian reasons, but certainly not taking the lead.

Let the Arab league handle this. I think it's one reason they exist!


ELISI-I assumed you have been referring to Mike Lee-UT. If so, did she have a sex change? :) It could only help this nut from Utah.

BTW, why do you think John McCain is a "RINO"?


timerick- "The difference being is we have not tried to kill our own just because they have a different religion."

Yes and No on that one!

No easy answers for sure.

nailingit — August 30, 2013 at 10:33 a.m. ( | suggest removal

No nailingit...Rep Barbara Lee..

ELISI — August 30, 2013 at 10:40 a.m. ( | suggest removal

ELISI- I believe I know what threw me off. Mike Lee is the one with your reported 12 signatures, and it's about shutting down government over Obamacare.

Rep. Barbara Lee (D-Calif.), is signed by 53 Democrats, though many of them also signed Rigell’s letter.

Read more:

nailingit — August 30, 2013 at 10:54 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Holy cow...Snowden released info showing that 52.6 billion was used by intelligence. 69% of the budget spent by NSA, CIA

ELISI — August 30, 2013 at 10:54 a.m. ( | suggest removal

oops...sorry for the mix up there..I had both windows open reading about both and must have gotten them mixed.

**Obama to speak in 15 mins**

ELISI — August 30, 2013 at 10:57 a.m. ( | suggest removal

HC I agree that the County is corrupt.I have tried for years to get a shot at bidding on their work.Never got a chance.Than a few years ago I went over the supervisors head.I bid the 4 jobs at 10% over my cost for materials and no labor.We still did not get the jobs.We found out from some disgruntled workers that we did not give any free stuff.Like ball game tickets,dinners and such.I complained again over the heads of the supervisors and never received anything back.I just gave up on the whole thing.

timerick — August 30, 2013 at 11 a.m. ( | suggest removal

"Do we pull back and let things happen or do we step in and sacrifice more of our young men and women.Give me a idea of how to stop all this carnage.I am willing to listen."

timerick — August 30, 2013 at 10:10 a.m.

We pull back. If we learned nothing else from Iraq, let us learn this.

We'll never stop all the carnage. I guess the best we can do is limit it and manage circumstances from our perspective of what's best for our citizenry and national interests. This faux humanitarian concern needs to be called out for what it is. Big Bro always plays off the public's sympathy when ramping up for war. I understand the chemical concern but again, this ball is in the Arab league's court. Lobbing a couple hundred missiles from off shore does nothing except make it worse in my opinion. One reason Congress needs to convene on this is to discuss possible ramifications of this action.

We need clear objectives before conducting warfare.

nailingit — August 30, 2013 at 11:07 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Well Obama is set to speak from the oval office any min now. He best have damn good info to give to the people. Then he better call congress in.

ELISI — August 30, 2013 at 11:18 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Nail I could not agree more.I am totally with you on this one.Do we have enough in congress to make this happen?I hope so.Can the president go over their heads?

timerick — August 30, 2013 at 11:21 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Does Obama need congressional approval to bomb Syria?

Rep. Justin Amash, R-Mich., has said it would be “unquestionably unconstitutional” for Obama to bomb the country without Congress’ approval, and he has authored legislation to withhold funds from the effort. Democratic Sen. Tim Kaine of Virginia also has suggested the president might be on shaky legal ground if he doesn’t get a congressional OK. More than 100 members of Congress signed a letter to the president warning him to seek their approval before attacking another country.

Interestingly, Obama himself made a similar argument while on the campaign trail six years ago. He told the Boston Globe in 2007 that no president can use military force absent an “actual or imminent threat to the nation” without first getting Congress' approval. (Vice President Joe Biden, for his part, vowed to impeach President George W. Bush in 2007 if he bombed Iran without first getting approval from Congress.)

ELISI — August 30, 2013 at 11:39 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Well the Arab League now says no and bows out along with Britain.

ELISI — August 30, 2013 at 12:02 p.m. ( | suggest removal

holyc: Thanks for the added details and confirmation that my memory was largely correct.

timerick: Too bad to learn that businesses have to sweeten the pot with freebies to get the contract award.

I am so deeply saddened and disillusioned with politician lies and crony politics, I don't know where to turn. All we can do is communicate to them that we are watching. Not that they care much. But, at least we can face ourselves and know w did what we could humanly do.

Sometimes citizens get punished for it, for sure. Businesses get blacklisted or targeted for erroneous code violations, for example. Even if you come out OK, you have had to spend the money and the energy and time fighting the allegations. But that's the point: harassment due to abuse of power.

I appreciate reading all the comments on the Syrian crisis. None of us here can be accused of apathy. You are the type of citizens I want living next door to me. :)

manthou — August 30, 2013 at 12:06 p.m. ( | suggest removal

manthou as I see this whole thing with Syria is a "damned if you do and damned if you don't".

Such a mess, I sure would not want to be one making the decisions on this.
nailingit said earlier, what about all the other times when countries have killed their own and we stood by and did nothing. What makes this any different? I'm afraid if Obama goes through with this, it will make things in the middle east much much worse.

ELISI — August 30, 2013 at 12:22 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Elisi: I agree with you. Some of us have been burned by the US involvement in previous wars and are understandably hyper-cautious about Syria. It is a humanitarian crisis, but US involvement can escalate the pain and suffering. We just don't know and not many of the citizens are willing to back this risk.

manthou — August 30, 2013 at 12:27 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Manthou can you think of a time in the last 75 years that the USA has not been involved in a war or conflict?It seems as if we have sent every generation to a war or conflict of some kind.Then our troops come home with all kinds terrible baggage.I thought about this last week when my nephew came to visit.He lost both legs above the knee and all but 2 fingers of his left hand.Thanks to our involvement in Afganistan.I don't want to see any more of our youth come home like that or worse.

timerick — August 30, 2013 at 1:54 p.m. ( | suggest removal

timerick: I am with you all the way. The youth who serve are patriotic beyond words. I believe the government takes advantage of this, their youth, their idealism and their poverty level.

I am so grateful for you nephew's service and so sorry that he paid such a price for his courage.


manthou — August 30, 2013 at 2:18 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Syria has a real Army; something we haven't faced in a long time. The effectiveness of a limited strike, whether air or naval missile or both, will probably be minimal - Their armies will hunker down and ride it out. And we already know they're moving weapons systems around and hiding whatever they can. If the regime is the culprit with the chemical attacks, expect them to hit harder than ever afterward just to spite us. Hezbollah will launch terrorist attacks on Israel, and the danger of strikes here increases tremendously. We'll be forced to put troops on the ground in response.

Meanwhile, the US military has already started with reductions. Retirees and families have been kicked out of TRICARE Prime. Notifications have gone out to Active Duty military; anyone with a record of UCMJ punishment or who required a moral (legal) waiver to enlist will be gone. We are going to cut the force even lower than under Gramm Rudman back in the Reagan years.

We have been fighting for the past ten years. Nearly every Marine and soldier has been in Iraq or Afghanistan at least once. Their training has been geared entirely to combating insurgent operations; they'll have to be trained all over to fight a conventional army that has aircraft, artillery, missiles, tanks, MLRS, etc, etc.

John Kerry and others are worried about what will happen to our reputation if we don't enforce Pres Obama's line in the sand. We better hope that Congress refuses to fund an attack on Syria - We've about reached the point where those in uniform no longer give a damn about whatever we may think we're accomplishing in the Mideast.

roger — August 30, 2013 at 3:06 p.m. ( | suggest removal

manthou, what do you mean by "their poverty level." ????

ELISI — August 30, 2013 at 3:46 p.m. ( | suggest removal

An argument in Foreign Affairs against intervention in Syria without the blessing of the UN Security Council. To do so could be considered an "illegal war." We are not being attacked, so to go into Syria would be an act of aggression on our part. Great Britain coined the term 'Responsibility to Protect' for Kosovo to justify humanitarian intervention there - While the Security Council accepted this, we rejected this intervention as a legal justification!

roger — August 30, 2013 at 3:46 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Roger, just heard not only do they now have 5 destroyers there, they now have an amphibious landing ship on it's way with several hundred Marines on board with a full surgical hospital.

Obama DID say "no boots on ground" today did he not? Why then the Marines?

ELISI — August 30, 2013 at 3:54 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Roger I hope for all of us that you are right.If Obama gets us into this mess I believe it is going to cause tremendous problems not only here at home but all over the Middle East.

timerick — August 30, 2013 at 3:56 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Roger, I said it yesterday and I'll say it again. As long as no Americans are being attacked, we should NOT stick our nose in it. Also, we should cut off any and all aid to that country.

hawkeye — August 30, 2013 at 4:17 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Elisi -

During Vietnam, the rich went to college and got student deferments, while the poor had to report for induction when called. (Or so the argument went; a rather sweeping generalization that stands up to a large extent when you look at our political leaders of the right age and see who served and who found a way out.)

That argument is no longer relevant - We have an all volunteer service. HOWEVER, the statement itself can still be supported by two things. At what socioeconomic levels is unemployment highest, thus making that steady paycheck and various family support activities most attractive? And an argument I often made myself was to look at the cost of getting a college education, and then look at what the military offers to offset this. I took numerous business and accounting courses while in uniform, with Uncle Sam picking up 90% of the tuition. Our troops who are deployed can take on line courses from accredited universities. I used to bully every one of my new soldiers into signing up for an evening course at the base Ed Center, and would constantly harangue them over how easy it would be to finish a semester or two of college work during a four year enlistment. (A few actually paid attention - most were more interested in partying.) My main argument was to look at what you would return to after an enlistment with no college, and then what you might be able to do if you worked toward a degree. And there are several versions of the GI Bill; many pay enough to fund a four year degree at almost any reasonably priced university. But once again, this kind of an argument appeals mainly to those from poorer areas with no real opportunity for a future.

roger — August 30, 2013 at 4:17 p.m. ( | suggest removal

elisi: I was under the impression that recruits are from poorer households: the idea that the poor fight the war for the rich.

I looked it up on the defense website and most recruits today come from the middle class.

Thanks for the question. I appreciate the opportunity to learn something new:

[link text][1]


manthou — August 30, 2013 at 4:18 p.m. ( | suggest removal

holycrapola — August 30, 2013 at 4:07 p.m.

So it's not OK for them to kill their people but it's OK for us to do it, huh?

hawkeye — August 30, 2013 at 4:19 p.m. ( | suggest removal

I suppose we can blame the Atlantic Charter, an unsigned agreement between FDR and Churchill that led to our entering WWII, for why we deem it necessary to get involved in other people's business. To borrow from Wikipedia,

"The Charter stated the ideal goals of the war: no territorial aggrandizement; no territorial changes made against the wishes of the people; restoration of self-government to those deprived of it; free access to raw materials; reduction of trade restrictions; global cooperation to secure better economic and social conditions for all; freedom from fear and want; freedom of the seas; and abandonment of the use of force, as well as disarmament of aggressor nations."

roger — August 30, 2013 at 4:31 p.m. ( | suggest removal

roger, goldie, anyone, Beuhler, Beuhler?

I understand that, now that Oregon is looking at spearheading the CRC on their own, they will be the state that pays for the mitigation costs associated with moving those three companies, not WA.

They will also pay for any property acquisition on this side of the river. They also get all the toll money, too. All contingent upon this pie in the sky flying high.

roger, you may have to go on FB and calm those guys down. They think this money is coming from WA.

manthou — August 30, 2013 at 4:32 p.m. ( | suggest removal

The mitigation documents just posted show Oregon Department of Transportation as the entity responsible for the payouts.

The CRC gets Federal dollars, so we are paying for that anyway. Better here than my Federal tax dollars going to Hawaii? Anyone buy that? :)

manthou — August 30, 2013 at 4:39 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Manthou and Elisi,

What middle class? Check the date of that article - December 2005 was a long time ago, and patriotism was still at a fairly high level due to 9/11. Fast forward a few more years to around 2008 - I knew plenty of junior NonComs (Sergeant and Staff Sergeant) who wanted to get out at the end of their enlistments, but couldn't. They had families to support, and no job to go back to where they came from. So they signed on again, and went to Afghanistan instead of Iraq, where they'd already been 3 or 4 times.

roger — August 30, 2013 at 4:39 p.m. ( | suggest removal

HC, yup, I got that. So they have an Army, are they the ones doing the damage? OK, destroy them. Surgically from what, the air? The sea? Remember, no boots on the ground. Surgically? Sure, that'll work. They won't hit any innocents, can't happen. Right? How many "innocents" died in Baghdad? No big deal. Then after the air strike, we won't have to go in and clean anything up, right? Surgical, right? How are you going to find their weapons without boots on the ground? Oh right, you said "When in doubt, knock them out! No chicken crap on Syria or any other country that kills, burn and maim innocent people especially women and children."

Just how are you going to do that without the rest of the world calling you a bully?

hawkeye — August 30, 2013 at 4:57 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Hawaii has a well planned elevated rail system. And the natives are still up in arms over it - as far as they're concerned, it's all the haole working at the military bases who are the problem. (Sort of like all the California and Oregon transplants here? Why do we have to move somewhere, and then try to change it to meet our own expectations?)

Oregon has no money. That's what has Ted Wheeler so concerned - if the tolling revenue estimates don't pan out, Oregon is in a world of hurt. Gov Kitz claims to have about $30 mil of federal transportation dollars from somewhere (never specified); this would have covered the first year of their payments on borrowing for their $450 mil cost share). They were depending on their split from tolling revenues to cover future payments. And as Wheeler and others noted, those tolling estimates were based on a continual glide increase every year for traffic since formulated in 2006; reality is that traffic decreased. Oregon almost has to be planning on petitioning USDOT to allow tolling the I205 bridge to help pay for this resurrected project - something that would almost certainly have support from people like Murray and Inslee.

Where will those businesses relocate to? I'm guessing (if we're lucky) to the Centennial Industrial Park, over on the other side of where Tesoro is supposed to set up operations. And what happens with the property where at now? I'm guessing a few developers are already working that angle. Because why else would our own "powers" be so willing to accept the idea of paying this mitigation?

And we'll still have to pay LRT O&M;, but TriMet will run the entire show.

roger — August 30, 2013 at 5:07 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Surgical strikes are a lot of B.S. Saddam survived how many months of them, before we finally put troops on the ground? The only reason they worked in Libya is because we also poured in enough weaponry to allow the insurgents to win the ground victories that brought Khadafi down.

roger — August 30, 2013 at 5:10 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Roger and manthou, back during Vietnam, even tho there was the draft, most ended up in the military cause of no education, not even a high school diploma.

My Dad was military, so was my husband, I saw a lot during Vietnam. Now, you best have no debt, no traffic tickets, no drugs, no alcohol. When my daughter went in, she had to take her diploma and when my son was thinking about joining he too had to take his in.
They require at least a GED last I knew. Most service men and women anymore have some college. A lot has changed since Vietnam, the uniforms, even ranking, they now look for those with some college.
As the saying goes..They only want the best and the brightest.

and manthou my son has 7 friends that are active duty and every one of them come from middle class families.. 2 have 1 yr of college, 3 have 2 or more before they went in. Two have just signed up for courses to take while their carriers are in dry dock for repairs.
My next door neighbor is active, he is 34yrs old. When he went in he had 2 yrs of college, now he is going back to finish his degree. He is FAR from poverty.

People need to get to know a service man or woman in active duty. They use to get their first sets of clothing and uniforms for free, now they have to pay for them. Yup their very first paycheck goes for clothing. They use to get all medical for they have to pay for health insurance. They even take something like $300. a month from their check for food. With what they have to pay out now, with the low pay they get, the ones in poverty are the ones trying to raise a family.. and to think, they do this while being placed in harms way every time a president gets a itch to blow some country up so a-holes can sit on theirs and complain about the defense fund and spew garbage.

ELISI — August 30, 2013 at 5:18 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Elisi @ 5:18. Just like Tim's story, there's nothing like real-life examples. Thanks for sharing yours.

manthou — August 30, 2013 at 5:31 p.m. ( | suggest removal

holycrapola — August 30, 2013 at 5:24 p.m.

You, nor anyone else is EVER going to stop the fighting in the middle East. Ain't going to happen, never, never, never. Even if Jesus Friggin' Christ came back and told them to stop, they'd just shoot him and keep going cause he wasn't "their" God.

The only way to stop it is to cut the head off the snake. Get some CIA spook in there and take out the bad guy. Game over.

hawkeye — August 30, 2013 at 5:43 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Perhaps your take is technically correct, but I see the ramifications differently. I'm afraid my facebook post is intended to refocus the anger. We're not wimpy like Texans; just allow someone else to try to claim eminent domain in our state. (And if anyone doesn't know the Texas reference, study your Keystone XL documents.)

This project, if resurrected, is going to shape the political fights in this area for a long time. And even with the Seattle area being disconnected from the rest of the state, I can't envision Inslee (and possibly even the Dem party) surviving a give away of this nature.

If you read the earlier article from a couple of days ago, Jim Moeller finally weighed in. Most of the early responses were about how sarcastic he was, etc. I accused him of joining the old Chris Gregoire "get them out of their cars by any means possible." I suppose I'll have to see if he bothered to respond. BECAUSE, this project remains with one primary purpose - Get the people from The Couve off of Oregon's highways and onto their MAX trains and useless buses.

roger — August 30, 2013 at 5:54 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Has anyone thought that possibly, just possibly..that Assad's people didn't do this or his military, but..could it be that Al-Qaeda is behind the gassing to provoke us into striking Syria to do further damage to the USA? Placing a bigger bulls-eye target on us and turn even more countries against us?

ELISI — August 30, 2013 at 6:16 p.m. ( | suggest removal


I work for Army Recruiting. My first two years (before the DA Civ job I wanted opened) I worked as a contractor reviewing packets and processing waivers.

Much of what you say about no law, DUI, etc is true. But nowadays, getting in with a GED is extremely difficult. What they found was that the ones who tested high enough on the ASVAB to get in still had a higher washout rate than normal - their ability to stick through something was in question.

The initial uniform issue is still free (though I believe the O's are required to buy their swords and mess uniforms). In the Army, you get an annual uniform replacement allowance of a few hundred dollars. It's nowhere near enough; between new style uniforms and destroying the clothing and boots doing normal soldier stuff, one can easily spend a grand a year on this.

No one on Active Duty pays for their family's TRICARE coverage - yet. (I figure that's next up, now that they've kicked the retirees out of the decent Medicare equivalent Prime plan.) The uniforms continue to get free care - sometimes quite excellent, and sometimes less than desirable. (Same as anywhere else, actually.)

No one pays for their meals UNLESS they draw separate rations and then eat in a mess hall. If you deploy to someplace where you have to eat the military food, then you give your separate rations up. Maybe that was what was meant by having to pay to eat?

Agreed on the education. And maybe I'm just living in the old days, but the grades come a hell of a lot easier with the courses taken from military contracted schools (Univ of Maryland and Oklahoma) than they ever did at that PA State College system school I went to.

On post housing can still be hard to get in some locations, and it's still ass backwards - longer waits for the junior enlisted than for the senior Es and the Os, who make higher housing allowances and can more readily afford off post housing. (Actually, many of us preferred it.) But this isn't the old days - when I was a Staff Sergeant we qualified for food stamps and earned income credit. Nowadays, that Staff Sergeant is pulling in somewhere around $50K a year, with about half being tax free. And if you deploy to the box - that goes way up and is all tax free.

roger — August 30, 2013 at 6:27 p.m. ( | suggest removal

We have no legal authority to act unless attacked by Syria.

HC, do you remember the WMDs that we were sure Iraq had? Doesn't it strike you as the least bit suspicious that EVERYONE else is taking a step back because we really don't know who actually killed those people?

roger — August 30, 2013 at 6:44 p.m. ( | suggest removal

roger's comments provide good insight/dynamics and are spot on about those who sign up. In my experience, well over half sign up for economic reasons.

manthou — August 30, 2013 at 4:18 p.m.

I noticed out of the three graphs shown, two are military sourced (I assume) and one is from the infamous Heritage Foundation. Interestingly enough, this article from a trusted source appeared a month later. Maybe the Military put their article out to cloud the the issue as a rebuttal to the Washington Post article? (as it came out a month later same year) WA-PO does carry considerable weight, and military recruiting was heavy at this time.

///Youths in Rural U.S. Are Drawn To Military///

Many of today's recruits are financially strapped, with nearly half coming from lower-middle-class to poor households, according to new Pentagon data based on Zip codes and census estimates of mean household income. Nearly two-thirds of Army recruits in 2004 came from counties in which median household income is below the U.S. median.
Such patterns are pronounced in such counties as Martinsville, Va., that supply the greatest number of enlistees in proportion to their youth populations. All of the Army's top 20 counties for recruiting had lower-than-national median incomes, 12 had higher poverty rates, and 16 were non-metropolitan, according to the National Priorities Project, a nonpartisan research group that analyzed 2004 recruiting data by Zip code.

"A lot of the high recruitment rates are in areas where there is not as much economic opportunity for young people," said Anita Dancs, research director for the NPP, based in Northampton, Mass.

nailingit — August 30, 2013 at 6:47 p.m. ( | suggest removal

"appeared a month later"-meant to say a month earlier.

nailingit — August 30, 2013 at 7:07 p.m. ( | suggest removal

nailingit: Well, we certainly know that media can spin a story one way and then do a 180 degree turn with another. It's all in how they present the "evidence." :) So now, I am even more befuddled.

roger: Yes. So true. This issue will define politics in this region for longer than the month of September. It will be exhausting and I wonder which politicians will survive. The citizen advocates have a lot of energy and tenacity. I worry that we are getting a small snapshot because we read the news, we keep up on the meetings, we review the opinion each day. Our world is filled with firebrands who are not letting go and who discuss and argue online. With the poor voter turnout earlier this month, I wonder if the "real" world is glued to their reality TV shows and could care less.

Our sampling of citizens are different from the majority who live here, giving us a skewed view?

manthou — August 30, 2013 at 7:35 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Roger, both friends of my son that are in the Navy did have to pay for their clothing from their first check. and.. they also see $300 a month going out of their checks for food. They both live in base, eat base food and neither are married.

Next door neighbor told us that Tri-care is changing and yes, they will have to start paying towards it.

ELISI — August 30, 2013 at 7:59 p.m. ( | suggest removal

This is just sad. Nicely done GOP. Cutting Education, transportation defense, social programs, health services, the sciences...BRAVO!

///Nearly 20 Percent Of Scientists Contemplate Moving Overseas Due In Part To Sequestration///

More than 3,700 scientists from all 50 states participated in the study, offering online responses in June and July 2013. They offered sobering assessments of the state of their profession. Eighty percent said they were spending more of their time writing grants now than in 2010, while 67 percent said they were receiving less grant money now than they were back then. Only two percent of respondents said they had received money from their employers -- predominantly academic institutions -- to make up for the loss of federal funds.

nailingit — August 30, 2013 at 8:12 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Just for fun, my oldest brother sent this, very funny!!!

ELISI — August 30, 2013 at 8:25 p.m. ( | suggest removal

HC my first thoughts were pretty much the same as yours.Level the place and call in the paving company.But I read nails post and changed my mind.I don't think that anything we do is going to change the Middle East.They have done this forever.I believe in our military.but I am not willing to sacrifice any more of our young.I have been there and done that.Although it was many years ago.The problem has not changed.Just time.I think we need to just back off and let their chips fall where they may.If they come to us then we do what we need to do.And Roger a staff sgt. makes 50 gs a year.I came out as a E-5 and with combat pay and dependents in 1971, I was making 550.00 a month.For 50gs I will go back in maby.Most likely not.

timerick — August 30, 2013 at 9:26 p.m. ( | suggest removal

hawkeye — August 30, 2013 at 5:43 p.m.

Your statement that Jesus is not "their" god is not entirely correct, Jesus is recognized as a prophet in the Muslim faith.

frobert — August 30, 2013 at 10:18 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Wow. I just checked the mitigation CRC article and the # of comments really spiked! Decker schooled everyone as to why someone running for office should keep their mouth shut. :)

Anyone see Fox News today reporting Ron Paul is coming out as a transgen.....frobro! What's happening? Long time no see.

nailingit — August 31, 2013 at 12:24 a.m. ( | suggest removal

nailingit: I just cannot stay up late enough to catch some of your gems. You seem to shine the brightest after 10:00 PM, when I am long comatose. Your jab at Ron Paul reminds me of how Dan Savage teased Rob McKenna back in 2010. Whooo boy, what guts:

[link text][1]

On a much more serious note, The Onion has emerged, it seems, as a leader among the "press" in terms of putting the pressure on about Syria. Killing 70,000 of your own countrymen/women/children in 2 years is hard to fathom, but it is true:

[link text][2]


manthou — August 31, 2013 at 4:59 a.m. ( | suggest removal

David Madore's personal assistant, Anna Miller (who works with him at Clark County) has posted this gem on his Facebook page:

"Thank you David for being a champion of the people. Thank you Chairman Ganley for your steady, mature leadership. Thank you attorney Tom for coming back to the table and completing the work important to the taxpayers even though you didn't want to."

I love the stinger at the end. Anna, Tom Wolfendale "didn't want to" because your boss treated him like a putz.

An independent counsel provides checks and balances. What we are going to see is something far worse than an private practice attorney advising C-Tran. Once Wolfendale gives this 3 ring circus the finger and leaves, Madore will make sure a political crony gets the job: someone he can keep in his hip pocket.

Count on it.

Benton article tomorrow. Cannot wait.

manthou — August 31, 2013 at 5:24 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Vancouver middle schools are going to be sending iPads home with students this year. This is being paid for with the recent "technology levy". iPads are sold as entertainment devices, our money allocated for technology should not be used for overpriced toys. On a recent tour of one of the middle schools, I noticed they are still using their outdated Pentium 4 computers. Technology in our schools is a good thing, but spending millions on a fad is a waste of taxpayer money.

frobert — August 31, 2013 at 6:35 a.m. ( | suggest removal

frobert: I agree heartily that technology funds should be spent wisely and they should be spent on serious tools.

In defense of the IPad: Did you know that it is widely used in schools for students who are blind and visually impaired? That it is affordable and often replaces the $6000 plus BrailleNote school districts used to have to buy?

While it may look like a toy and has entertainment value for sure, these little gadgets give all students affordable access to a great learning tool. Really.

manthou — August 31, 2013 at 6:42 a.m. ( | suggest removal

holyc: School Board members are not usually seasoned politicians. They are PTA parents who get into this job because they really want to make a difference. This does not excuse the Battleground School Board's actions. It just helps explain why they were in over their heads and made such a bonehead error. Where was their legal counsel, anyway?

There was an article recently, somewhere, about how the Seattle School Board is seeking to raise its salaries because the job is becoming so odious.


manthou — August 31, 2013 at 6:46 a.m. ( | suggest removal

manthou — August 31, 2013 at 6:42 a.m.

I recently bought some Android tablets, they are the same size and do more than the iPads, and they only cost about $70 each. I wouldn't say at $500 each that the iPads are affordable.

frobert — August 31, 2013 at 6:57 a.m. ( | suggest removal

fro: Well, that makes sense. Not to belabor the point or start a fight (I really prefer chatting with my Forum friends), let me suggest this:

Apple gives schools discounts. Apple has developed a big customer service program with schools and they stand by their products, software and apps. When some schools changed to Dell, they were not so pleased with the results.

I really don't know anything about technology procurement. Just worked in the schools and have seen IPads grow and grow in classrooms. Our students benefit from keeping up with technology. It is best practices education.

Have a great long weekend, fro. I was wondering where you were.......:)

manthou — August 31, 2013 at 7:22 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Apple gives deep discounts to schools just to get their operating system into the hands of kids as young as possible so they will grow up with it and buy more Apple products as they grow older. It's kind of like religion. If you start them off young, you can usually brainwash them into thinking this is the ONLY thing to believe in.

Have fun with that, I'm off to a cruise-in in Yacolt.

hawkeye — August 31, 2013 at 8:55 a.m. ( | suggest removal

The Oregonian has a couple of additional details in their article about that mitigation agreement that are a bit disturbing.

It says that both Oregon and Washington officials have agreed to make these payments. At first I thought he may have been referring to the two earlier agreements, which we were a party to. Hmmm... I wonder if we're still legally obligated to make payments to those two companies, even if we have bailed and if Oregon is allowed to go on their own?

But then I read further, and saw that yesterday Washington also issued the water quality certification needed for the project.

Interesting. It looks like Lynn Peterson has her marching orders from Inslee - Drive on with the CRC, and screw what the Senate says.

roger — August 31, 2013 at 8:57 a.m. ( | suggest removal

hawkeye: That is true. Brilliant marketing. Good products.

roger; The other thing I learned from the comments: Oregon Iron Works builds streetcars.

manthou — August 31, 2013 at 9:11 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Manthou -

They own United Streetcar, which seems to be incapable of meeting their contract to deliver cars to Portland.

roger — August 31, 2013 at 9:40 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Or to Tucson:

[link text][1]


On a related note, what is really, really getting my attention and giving me enormous pause is the cost and time overrun on the 520 bridge over Lake Washington up north. Cracks in the pontoon means poor design and repair costs. It was supposed to be done by now and they are projecting 2016 as an end game.

We don't gripe about this much here, because we are CRC focused, but this tells me that we might see similar problems with our little project? Why do I fear a repeat here?

One of the reasons to bolt and find another home is this: who wants to live with unending construction for the rest of one's life?

manthou — August 31, 2013 at 9:51 a.m. ( | suggest removal

manthou — August 31, 2013 at 4:59 a.m.

4:59...yikes! :) Roberta McKenna? After reading Frizzelle's response to Savage, it's almost enough to give me pause. Almost. Parody is neuropathy for the soul!

Seems like we are in an Onion Blossom world. Obama is serving up some magic sauce in about 15 minutes. I feel like yelling at the guy.

Politically speaking, what will this planned attack do for 2014, let alone 16'?

nailingit — August 31, 2013 at 10:09 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Oh, I'd better turn on the telly to hear the Prez. I may be screaming at him, too.

Before I head off for a hike with my sis-in-law, let me say this to everyone who participates here:

Thank you for your civility and great dialogue/discussions. I cannot believe how those FB'ers attack the messenger, rather than engaging WITH the messenger.


manthou — August 31, 2013 at 10:35 a.m. ( | suggest removal


Some of us have been mentioning SR520.

There was extremely poor WSDOT oversight of that contract; it may have helped lead to Paula Hammond being removed. If so, she was the sacrificial lamb. There's also a little matter of a warehouse full of engines they ordered for the ferries - these turned out to be too powerful, and are just sitting there.

SR520 is also failing to meet any sort of tolling estimates. WSDOT was supposed to petition to allow the I90 bridge to be tolled to help pay for this topic.

And - Yes, SR520 is one more example of a project that ends up costing more than estimated.

Also, keep an eye on the tunnel project in Seattle. Recent polls say drivers will find other routes, rather than paying the $2 toll.

roger — August 31, 2013 at 10:47 a.m. ( | suggest removal

YES! Obama's taking this to Congress before acting.

Thank you.

Time to send some targeted E-mails.

nailingit — August 31, 2013 at 10:57 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Limited strikes without troops on the ground won't work.

Will Congress even approve this, given the concurrent plans to further reduce the military budget?

Have we ever determined who the rebel forces are that we intend to send even more arms to?

And how will Russia and China react? They've already stopped a UN Security Council resolution bringing a human rights violations resolution against Syria.

roger — August 31, 2013 at 11:07 a.m. ( | suggest removal


Send e-mails to who? Jaime? You Know Murray and Cantwell will "grudgingly" support the Pres.

The only way this stops is if there's a tremendous outpouring of "NO!!!" from the American people - And this needs to happen in the press.

roger — August 31, 2013 at 11:12 a.m. ( | suggest removal

The NEW Obama - War Is My Destiny

roger — August 31, 2013 at 11:20 a.m. ( | suggest removal

People with no concept of what war is are usually the first to call for it.

roger — August 31, 2013 at 11:23 a.m. ( | suggest removal

I'm guessing C-SPAN will garner unprecedented ratings for these debates. I'll certainly be glued.

As a political point, divisions within both parties will be on display. I have to think Republicans will provide the starkest contrast with the Libertarian faction vs Neo-Cons. Divisions on the right are already deep, and the political fallout from these very public debates could be enormous. I'm sure in this regard, Republican leaders are more than nervous.

Look for Fox News to call this President weak and indecisive. ;)

Eat your hearts out House Of Commons, (when you're done eating British body parts:) America's idiocy & ineptness will take centre stage! We will not be outdone!

In all seriousness, this decision is a winner in many ways.

nailingit — August 31, 2013 at 11:26 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Control the future of the Mideast? Secure the Straits of Hormuz? I'll expect to see you leading the way, singing Onward Christian Soldiers as we pursue world domination for (who? Mobil Exxon?)

roger — August 31, 2013 at 11:31 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Nails - A winner only if Congress says No, and leaves The Pres his out. Then he can redirect the blame.

roger — August 31, 2013 at 11:34 a.m. ( | suggest removal

roger — August 31, 2013 at 11:12 a.m.

"Send e-mails to who? Jaime? You Know Murray and Cantwell will "grudgingly" support the Pres."

All of the above.

If we inundate them with a deluge of E-mails, just maybe it'll cause them to stick their collective finger in the air and determine which way the wind is blowing. Before we put our collective finger to them next election. Call me an idealist. :)

nailingit — August 31, 2013 at 11:35 a.m. ( | suggest removal

roger — August 31, 2013 at 11:34 a.m.

roger- I think if for no other reason, the overall optics for the Prez is positive. Taking this to Congress is a good thing regardless of outcome. So many accuse this President of being a "despot". What will they say now? (he vacillates-indecisive-weak-uncommitted-a muslim sympathizer-commie-perpetrator of WMD's aside:)


"Thank you for your civility and great dialogue/discussions. I cannot believe how those FB'ers attack the messenger, rather than engaging WITH the messenger."


manthou — August 31, 2013 at 10:35 a.m.

Back at you! You set a great example for all to follow.

nailingit — August 31, 2013 at 11:46 a.m. ( | suggest removal


You're correct, but I doubt they'll listen. They get their marching orders from their own leaders. You'll be best off posting a comment on The Maddow blog. I just did.

Sadly, most are more concerned with the politics - how the Repubs will react.

roger — August 31, 2013 at 12:05 p.m. ( | suggest removal

HC lets his true colors be shown --

I watched as the Lamb opened the first of the seven seals. Then I heard one of the four living creatures say in a voice like thunder, "Come and see!" I looked, and there before me was a white horse! Its rider held a bow, and he was given a crown, and he rode out as a conqueror bent on conquest.

— Revelation 6:1-2

roger — August 31, 2013 at 12:10 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Your way will have Hezbollah attacking Israel (with Syria's chemical weapons, and possibly worse) in retaliation. And do you truly expect Iran to do nothing? I suspect many of those nations who refused to back us understand that they'll step up their funding of all the little al Qaeda type groups - expect terrorist attacks in any country that would support our intervention.

Even if Assad were to go, what would be the outcome? Very similar to Egypt - an even more anti-US group in power, until eventually the generals get tired of their nonsense and stage a coup.

Our way or the highway doesn't work anymore. And it never has in that region. What was the final outcome of the three Crusades? Have any of the other governments in the region truly accepted Balfour, and Israel's right to exist?

roger — August 31, 2013 at 12:22 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Go Ducks!

hawkeye — August 31, 2013 at 3:22 p.m. ( | suggest removal

HC - I've got the book - Waging Modern War. In it, Clark discusses that encounter in the Pentagon, and cautions against trying to use Kosovo as a comparison.

Kindly explain why Pres Obama is continuing a Cheney/Rumsfeld/Wolfowitz strategy for bringing down the hostile governments of the Middle East?

roger — August 31, 2013 at 3:45 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Wasn't that game over after the first quarter?

Go Penn State!!! (Damn it! 'Cuse just picked off a pass and then scored - they're back to 6 down.)

Actually, I'm waiting for Georgia and Clemson - that should be a good game. And after that, Boise vs. Washington might be a decent one too - though neither of these teams will go much of anywhere.

Editor Lou's team was pretty mediocre today.

Johnny Manziel is being ganged up on by the sports analysts for acting like a punk. Guess he can kiss a Heisman repeat goodby.

roger — August 31, 2013 at 3:53 p.m. ( | suggest removal

roger — August 31, 2013 at 3:53 p.m

The game was over before it started but it's good exercise for the third string.

As far as Johnny Football goes, nothing like acting like a punk. More to come from him, I'm sure.

hawkeye — August 31, 2013 at 5:51 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Good work, Stevie Mathieu and Erin Middlewood. You uncovered some important facts that give us better information about Don Benton.

Readers can make up their own minds if he earned his Clark County job honestly. I do not think he did and I would not purchase even a bag of popcorn from him.

He and his wife have done a good job of planning for their retirement with their real estate holdings and investment accounts. Six more years before he can capture his SS at the earliest date. Maybe he will retire then. One can hope.

I want to follow his hiring trail at Clark County, as well. So far, it appears he handed a Coordinator position (clean water) to another crony. One down and three more appointments left. We're watching you, Don. Like you have never been scrutinized before.

manthou — September 1, 2013 at 8:17 a.m. ( | suggest removal

HC -

What's your take on Tim Leavitt, who continues to work for PBS Engineering while serving as Mayor of Vancouver? PBS has a couple of high dollar contracts with TriMet. Leavitt says what he works on has nothing to do with those contracts. OK. But is it a stretch to say he'll do what he can to advance the position of such an important client of his company?

When you're dealing with politicians, the money trail is often going to go to shady places. I don't care for Benton, or the other two who hired him. But consider that Benton's antics were pretty much ignored until he came out actively opposed to the CRC project.

We're not getting the other side of the coin - Just who is planning on cashing in on the plan to push forward with the CRC and bring light rail into downtown Vancouver? I'm hoping you're not gullible enough to buy all that crap about needing alternate modes of public transportation. There's a whole lot of money waiting to be made that requires the success of that project, and you can bet the political types supporting it have been paid. Because that's the nature of the beast.

Benton looks to be slimy, but he's just a small time player compared to many in the game.

roger — September 1, 2013 at 8:19 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Manthou - Same question to you.

roger — September 1, 2013 at 8:22 a.m. ( | suggest removal

roger: Apples and oranges in terms of Leavitt and Benton.

I have already been very open about how I took down my Leavitt 4 Mayor sign during his first run for the office (and voted for Royce) after I witnessed what I believed was sheer manipulation to gain votes on the NoTolls promise. I had attended the public press conference where the Latin American voters endorsed him. I saw through it clearly and was amazed that so many others swallowed that story. They so wanted a hero to champion their cause, they could not see the truth. Confirmation bias in action.

I am uncomfortable about what I consider a biased conflict over Leavitt's job and his political views. Even though there may not be a legal conflict of interest, the ethics of it concern me.

Just because you can does not mean you should.

What bothers me most about Benton is that the customary hiring process at Clark County was circumvented by two of his friends who handed him the job. He does not appear to have the experience for the job. I also appears to me that he has hired another crony and on it goes.

Leavitt earned his job, and won it fair and square. He probably should recuse himself on some votes, just to be extra cautious. Judges do this all the time. Politicians should do.

Wordy, as usual, but I hope that answers your question.

manthou — September 1, 2013 at 8:35 a.m. ( | suggest removal

And roger: Benton is no small-time player. His work in the state senate helped seal the death of the transportation package. In terms of power, his is dwindling based on his own hubris, but he has done far more damage or good (depending on your perspective) than Leavitt has.

Leavitt is either rising or falling. We shall see.

manthou — September 1, 2013 at 8:40 a.m. ( | suggest removal

It sounds as though Benton's life has been filled with one con after another. What's it say for Meilke/Madore's judgement? Did Benton supply any "favors" to M&M; for this appointment?

roger- I missed anything about Leavitt in the article. Why point an accusatory finger at someone else to deflect attention away from Benton? He's the fish in the frying pan. One at a time.

Still want to hang out with this creep for a beer?

nailingit — September 1, 2013 at 8:46 a.m. ( | suggest removal

roger: To continue my explanation: I am more confused than ever about what transportation options are best for our city. I am now trying to concentrate on my needs at the very microlevel.

That's why we are exploring other cities with strong public transportation and other public services already in place. Nothing is keeping us in this region beyond the fact that we love the beauty of it. I know I do not want to live with years of project overruns and streets being torn up.

I don't believe any politician any more without doing my own research. And that is problematic, because the experts often disagree and provide compelling arguments that show credibility on may points of view.

It just sometimes comes down to intuition and gut feeling. And maybe a little stubborness that does not want some well-heeled politician to buy his way through money and bully tactics.

We know which politicians are not self-financed very well, but they all engage in underhanded tactics to destroy opponents. So, I don't trust many of them and vote with my nose pinched shut.

manthou — September 1, 2013 at 8:54 a.m. ( | suggest removal

"Benton argues in his appeal that he has 120 clients that have paid his company $10,000 or more during the past three years, and revealing them would violate their confidentiality. They don't hire him because of his political position, he writes. "Nearly all are out of state and don't even know about that part of my life," he states."

"Many of his promotional materials, however, refer to him as a senator."

Sure Don, that's believable.............LOL!

nailingit — September 1, 2013 at 8:56 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Manthou - I agree with what you say on all points except one. I don't believe Leavitt won his election fairly; he served on enough CRC related committees as Councilor to know the project couldn't be accomplished without tolling. Old Royce Pollard himself stopped just short of calling him a liar in that OPB interview done shortly after Leavitt had his epiphany.

Still, we're just talking about the front men when we discuss Benton and Leavitt. It would be nice to be able to find out whose money is behind them.

roger — September 1, 2013 at 9:10 a.m. ( | suggest removal


One at a time doesn't play. Not when the focus is always pointed in one direction.

roger — September 1, 2013 at 9:23 a.m. ( | suggest removal

roger: I was not being clear. I was referring to Leavitt's job as engineer. I assume he has a degree in the field and was vetted by his employer. I am sure he was not handed the job before he went through a standardized process.

Leavitt won the election by winning over those conservatives who truly believed he was a No Tolls hardliner. That was deception and it happens all the time. I don't like it. I did my research by watching him, not simply listening or reading his sound bites. So, yeah. Any politician who obfuscates the truth did not disclose information fairly and squarely. That must be most of them.

manthou — September 1, 2013 at 9:45 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Two issues strike me most in the information uncovered in the Benton article.

1. David Madore did not re-hire Benton's business in 2012(for any significant amount) after having handed him nearly $46,000 the year before. He appears to have thrown Benton some political crumbs ($3,000 amounts to crumbs for Madore) to keep the political skids greased just enough in 2012. Madore obviously made a personal evaluation of Benton's PR services after using them and determined that an out-of-state company could serve his needs better. However, even with this background information and personal experience, Madore gambled the tax payers' funds on Benton. The gamble was not for his skills, I can assure you, but for the political favors Benton could provide in making sure Madore's specific agendas are protected from objective checks and balances. (Case in point: Madore stages a tantrum on FB when anyone dares to question the merits or legality of his ideas: Barron, Wolfendale, Lookingbill, Burkman so far).

2. Benton's UNILATERAL actions to procure real estate as State Republican Party Chair. No wonder he was ousted and sued. Anytime actions are taken unilaterally and behind-closed-doors, public protections are violated. Any politician who thinks this is SOP should never be re-elected.

manthou — September 1, 2013 at 9:56 a.m. ( | suggest removal

I just tried to muddle my way through Greg Jayne's God.....

Laird! You are sorely missed!!!

nailingit — September 1, 2013 at 10:25 a.m. ( | suggest removal

I'll concede all of those points to everyone. My issue is that the public focus, as generated and sustained by the media, is mostly one sided.

I've been trying to get an answer out of Jim Moeller on something - Will he support an Oregon petition to toll the I205 Glenn Jackson bridge to support the CRC I5 bridge project their Governor is trying to resurrect?

It can be done, and WSDOT is moving ahead with a plan to petition FWHA to allow tolling the I90 bridge to force people to return to the SR520 bridge in high enough numbers to pay for that project.

The Don't Toll I90 people have an excellent website that covers this subject in detail.

There's been more than enough info to say the CRC's tolling revenues forecasts for the I5 project are seriously short due to outdated traffic figures and a lower diversion to I205 than appears likely. The official take has always been that diversion will happen, but people will shortly return to the old route and pay the tolls once they decide that will be faster and more convenient. SR520 is not working this way; drivers continue to clog the I90 rather than pay the tolls on SR520. Oregon Treasurer Ted Wheeler is quite concerned, and it appears Senate Pres Pete Courtney is listening to him.

It's interesting (to me) that Jim won't answer this question, but two of the project supporters (apologists would be a better way of describing their arguments) are both trying to label this topic as the latest conspiracy theory.

I read enough from Oregon to be pretty confident in saying this option is being considered as part of the latest proposal from Kitz, and will almost have to be included to win over those who are concerned about Oregon's ability to make the payments if they go it alone.

And I'm also betting Jim is quite OK with this. (Also Gov Inslee and Lynn Peterson.) What I'm not as certain about is whether our Senate Majority Coalition will oppose it (if they even stay in control past November).

roger — September 1, 2013 at 10:27 a.m. ( | suggest removal

FB commenter Ed Ruttledge:

"Ms. Reis, through the County's legal counsel at the time (who has since also left the County), officially declined to invalidate the process used to insert Don Benton into his job. I have the document. Anyone with integrity has already left their executive positions in the County. Is it Ms. Reis is comfortable collaborating with cronyism?"

I'd love to see this document. Does this imply that Francine Reis had the opportunity and power to invalidate the hire and chose not to?

I wrote Bronson Potter after the hire and asked him if Clark County hiring processes and procedures had been violated. I never received a reply and he left Clark County for Vancouver shortly thereafter.

Will it take a group of citizens to file a lawsuit? How many dueling lawsuits can our region withstand?

manthou — September 1, 2013 at 10:28 a.m. ( | suggest removal

roger @ 10:27: I do not believe that you are spouting a conspiracy theory about the future tolling of the Glenn Jackson Bridge. I suspect that it is a topic of hot discussion behind closed doors with the Master Class in Oregon and Washington now.

manthou — September 1, 2013 at 10:50 a.m. ( | suggest removal

I started reading the article on Benton with an open mind. I immediately went to "sleaze bag" "sideways" and the always popular "scam artist". All of his jobs were, it seems, in the grey area of management. Not really an owner, not really a boss but that long lost uncle that comes in the barbershop from time to time and tells the help what to do when the owner is away. And then to pay himself and his wife 15% to manage his own campaign advertising. Sure it's "legal" but is it ethical? NO! If he were related to me, I'd keep him far away from the women folk.

hawkeye — September 1, 2013 at 11:06 a.m. ( | suggest removal

I just tried to muddle my way through Greg Jayne's God..... nailingit — September 1, 2013 at 10:25 a.m.

Yeah, I'll agree that Editor Lou and his classroom is enough of the conversation style editorial approach for one newspaper. I can't see bringing Laird back, though.

Hopefully Jayne can develop a style that's worth keeping. He seems willing to discuss controversial issues (though Mylie shaking her butt isn't exactly relevant to anything much).

roger — September 1, 2013 at 11:14 a.m. ( | suggest removal

When they started using that picture of Benton in The C - the one where he's looking sideways with what almost seems a leer on his face - I was reminded of something. I wasn't going to share it there, but... here you go.

roger — September 1, 2013 at 11:25 a.m. ( | suggest removal

hawkeye@11:06: "If he (Benton) were related to me, I'd keep him far away from the women folk."

Parenthesis mine for clarity.

I was laughing so hard at that closing line of yours, that it brought my husband out of the bathroom, shaving cream all over his face: "What's wrong? Are you OK?"

On a serious note: I would give my right arm to be in a deposition of Francine Reis about the Benton hire (and his friend Clifford). Who is her supervisor? Madore, Mielke, Stuart?

This is where the buck stops and she, for some reason, does not appear to be a good gatekeeper to best practices HR hiring. Then, again, she might be caught between a rock and a hard place and is trying to keep her job. Or is a political crony herself when she is supposed to serve and leave her politics at home. Just more questions.

Time to request her emails.

manthou — September 1, 2013 at 11:28 a.m. ( | suggest removal

manthou — September 1, 2013 at 11:28 a.m.

Glad you enjoyed it. The thing is, that is exactly what I was feeling when I read the article. I just know deep inside that he's a slime ball. I'm sure that after being around him for an hour or so would make me want to rush home to take a shower. It makes me wonder what kind of alliance he and Madore have since Madore seems to be the "higher ground, mightier than thou" type and Benton is the "bottom of the barrel" type. Maybe one feeds the other. It boggles the mind.

hawkeye — September 1, 2013 at 11:46 a.m. ( | suggest removal

FB commenter Ron Goodman does good public records research and posted this today:

"Don Benton and National Consulting Services, Inc. (his corporation) also appear to have an ownership interest in as revealed by whois searches and by the Universal Terms of Service Agreement used by Awful Cheap Domains. Yet, neither "Awful Cheap Domains" nor" The Benton Group" appear to be registered to do business in Washington, as required by Washington law for any business activity not done under the person's proper name or corporation name. RCW 19.80.010

National Consulting Services, Inc. business license gives a business address in Becerra's Plaza on Fourth Plain occupied by a carniceria.

Don Benton apparently fails to register trade names he does business under, as well as to update his business license, and this is the person who is supposed to ensure Clark County meets state and federal standards and files appropriate permits?"

manthou — September 1, 2013 at 11:56 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Ron Goodman's research and opinion continue:

"Don Benton left two, maybe three, organizations off his work experience submitted to Clark County:
Wasserood/dba TOMA Research/dba American Consulting Services, Inc.
T.H.I.S. Computer Solutions, Inc.
The Vancouver Weekly (Benton holds an active business license going back to 1989 and Revenue records show the business active from 1989 to 1991).

Clark County's Human Resources Policy specifies: "Applications must be signed by applicants who advance in the selection process, and the truth of all statements contained therein certified by such signature. The Human Resources Department may require such proof of residence, education, experience, and other claims as is deemed appropriate."

It also specifies: "Honesty means free from fraud and deception. Being honest means telling the truth but also not withholding information in order to deceive or protect personal interests. It means being forthright."

Not being forthright on an application is typically grounds for dismissal."

There ya go, Francine. Ron just gave you a gift. Time to exercise your power as HR director, or, are you, too, afraid of Madore?

I looked at the Clark County organizational chart and, although the Commissioners are Reis' immediate supervisors, ultimately she and everyone at Clark County answer to the voters.

So far, Madore is silent on FB. No comments to support his hire against the information published by the C.

manthou — September 1, 2013 at 12:02 p.m. ( | suggest removal

So far, Madore is silent on FB. No comments to support his hire against the information published by the C.

manthou — September 1, 2013 at 12:02 p.m.

Give him a few minutes, church just let out and he has to B.S. a little to keep those people on his side. I'm sure he'll get around to it after he gets home and settled and gets his lies, oops, thoughts figured out.

hawkeye — September 1, 2013 at 12:36 p.m. ( | suggest removal

manthou — September 1, 2013 at 11:56 a.m.

manthou — September 1, 2013 at 12:02 p.m.

Steve Lappier · Top Commenter · Ridgefield High School
"Scam. Better get the knitting needles out, something might unravel here."
Reply · 9 · · 6 hours ago


Right now there's a blah blah comment from the Crain before Goodman's comments. Quite comical in a sense.

nailingit — September 1, 2013 at 12:36 p.m. ( | suggest removal

I know, poor dear. She love to scold. She lives to scold. Her full time job: to scold. As if she is going to shame The Columbian into anything.

manthou — September 1, 2013 at 12:48 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Her appearances on CVTV have been ... frightening.

nailingit — September 1, 2013 at 1:01 p.m. ( | suggest removal

I've been thinking about who really has the worse job in Clark County right now.

I used to think it was Bill Barron, but he is soon gone. Bronson Potter had a close second, but he is gone.

I totally neglected to factor HR Director Francine Reis into the equation. Her job, by far, is the #1 worse job in Clark County. She's damned if she does (get rid of Benton for lying on his application or choosing to stop the hire in the first place), thereby honking off two of her three bosses, and damned if she doesn't, possibly violating Clark County hiring guidelines and her own integrity.

Yep. It's Francine Reis. I am sure she has her resume out by now, hoping for an escape hatch.

manthou — September 1, 2013 at 1:24 p.m. ( | suggest removal

OK - We have someone on the facebook side named Steve Foster, who says -- "For 10 years I was in charge of the department that ran the county's hiring process and developed and maintained all the job descriptions and job classifications. I am reasonably familiar with Benton's resume and for the life of me I can't think of a job classification he would have gotten past the first screen for (meets minimum published qualifications)."

I asked -- "Mr. Foster - Does the County have any sort of exception which allows for a noncompetitive hiring process?"

Response -- "...the county allows certain fairly well defined exceptions none of which quite contemplate the direct hiring of a department head by the BOCC. It should also be said that since the BOCC has approval authority on human resource policies, it follows that they have the authority to change or violate them. They can but should they?"

Ron Goodman noted several points, but bases his argument on -- "Honesty means free from fraud and deception. Being honest means telling the truth but also not withholding information in order to deceive or protect personal interests. It means being forthright."

I asked -- "Question. You're describing a competitive selection process. Do the same rules apply for a closed one?"

Response -- "...the rule of being forthright is an obligation throughout Clark County employment."

Forthright is defined by MW as "Direct and without evasion; straightforward."

Goodman's argument is based on Benton leaving out some of his work history - but he fails to show that this omission was "withholding information in order to deceive or protect personal interests."

Sorry, but I'm afraid we get back to the same point Pridemore made - You might not like how these guys play ball, but....

roger — September 1, 2013 at 2:37 p.m. ( | suggest removal

But I don't think the County job is what The Columbian is really concerned about - they're just focusing on it because of how it stinks. I think they're trying to get Benton suspended or kicked out of the Senate for an ethics violation. This would/could create a tie, and Lt Gov Owens would cast any deciding vote. I believe this article by The Columbian is geared to trying to facilitate calling an emergency session to act on the Transportation bill and/or the CRC. It probably won't happen by Sep 30, but deadlines can be stretched if the right people are involved and think their end goals will be met.

roger — September 1, 2013 at 2:48 p.m. ( | suggest removal

roger: Steve Foster is running for Freeholder, too. He is Dist 1 Pos 4. He provided a very funny citizen comment at that huge public hearing right after Benton was hired. Brought the house down with his quip about all this sudden interest in what HR does is, well, "career affirming." It was one of the videos chosen by the C to publish online.

The press is not supposed to have an agenda, but we all know that advocacy journalism in alive and well. They basically laid out all the facts and it is up to others to take them and use them as they wish. The best investigative journalism has some impact for sure.

I found it real interesting that Moeller and others are very silent. Moeller even congratulated Don about the job on here. While I very much hope you are correct about some sort of legislative censure, who has the guts to come forward and initiate the idea of one?

manthou — September 1, 2013 at 4:12 p.m. ( | suggest removal

holyc: I had a lot of respect for Bronson Potter when he walked away from that mess, giving himself a $20,000 a year pay cut to accept the job with Vancouver.

He is one attorney I respect there. He essentially fired his client (Clark County), even though it cost him some dough, because he likely could not face having to defend their actions.

The Vancouver HR Director job was open for awhile. Francine should have bolted, too, as this issue will stick to her like a cheap suit. She will be forever known among her colleagues as the rubber stamp HR director.

manthou — September 1, 2013 at 4:21 p.m. ( | suggest removal

An interesting story in Sky News that came out today. It's alleged (by a Syrian gov't official who defected to England) that Assad was looking toward using chemical weapons against the rebels last summer, and the Brits had a chat with Assad and got him to back off. The current refusal (by Labour) to give Parliament's authorization to join the US in action against Syria is viewed as misguided.

Also worth reading is the inset to the right under the main photo, entitled "Syria: Where Do Arab States Stand?"

roger — September 1, 2013 at 4:28 p.m. ( | suggest removal

I've never heard of Mintpress News, but they make themselves out to be responsible journalists who often contract to AP for Mideast coverage. This article claims the rebels are responsible for the deaths - That Saudi Prince Bandar supplied the rebels with it, and through ignorance in what they had they killed themselves and others around them.

roger — September 1, 2013 at 4:48 p.m. ( | suggest removal

roger — September 1, 2013 at 4:28 p.m.


This guys pretty over the top with his warmongering; "He is worse than Adolf Hitler" rhetoric. I'll wait and see how this guy plays out. In a way, he reminds me of the infamous "curveball" with the run up to the Iraq war.

nailingit — September 1, 2013 at 5:01 p.m. ( | suggest removal

roger — September 1, 2013 at 4:48 p.m

If that's true, that would change EVERYTHING, now. Wouldn't it.

See, sometimes it pays to NOT jump the gun, as it were.

hawkeye — September 1, 2013 at 5:26 p.m. ( | suggest removal

roger — September 1, 2013 at 4:48 p.m.

I'm seeing nothing but politically fringe reporting on this. From the far left (Dem Underground, Daily Kos, to the wackiest of conspiracy nuts. (InfoWars)

One could easily frame the Syrian conflict as a proxy war with Iran in one corner, and the Saudi's in the other. Of course we're going to side with Big Oil & the Country who brought us 15 out of the 19

nailingit — September 1, 2013 at 5:32 p.m. ( | suggest removal

.....9/11 hijackers.

A time!

nailingit — September 1, 2013 at 5:33 p.m. ( | suggest removal

roger — September 1, 2013 at 2:48 p.m.

Heeere's your sign!!!

It is my opinion that most corruption evolves in the form of a smear campaign! No hiding the facts but when facts are manipulated to suit the needs of a certain group...

Just sayin'.

Nice Job, Stevie and Erin. Quite a write up you did, that's for sure. You did your jobs did just as your boss(es) expected you to do...and this is just my opinion.

And who is on the Board of Directors of ICC...and who recently voted in support of the phased options of the CRC including loo rail???

goldenoldie — September 1, 2013 at 5:39 p.m. ( | suggest removal

The UN Human Rights Council report on their investigation of the Syrian conflict. The document claims that while the majority of the war crimes were committed by Assad's people, the rebels have their share of the blame. It also notes that Hezbollah is aiding the government, while al Qaeda in Iraq is supporting at least one of the more powerful rebel factions. Their conclusion is that the UN Security Council must pursue a diplomatic resolution; taking sides won't work.

roger — September 1, 2013 at 5:46 p.m. ( | suggest removal

That's our quandary. Support Hezbollah or Al Qaeda. Totally a lose lose situation, and all the more reason for us to let it play out. Let the bad guys beat each other up. Any true change comes from within. Certainly firing a couple hundred cruise missiles wouldn't help, and might magnify crosshairs for Israel in the process.

I have empathy for those in the region, and hope we can assist in a humanitarian role. Everybody wants us to be their cop when it suits them.

nailingit — September 1, 2013 at 5:58 p.m. ( | suggest removal

nailingit — September 1, 2013 at 5:32 p.m.

If you check the About tab for Mint Press, these guys seem to do a lot of "on the ground" reporting for other news agencies. NPR, Reuters and AP were included, as well as a few Brit papers (never can tell about them). But there were a few fringe clients listed, to include Huffington Post.

Their report has a problem - most of the first hand info about dead rebels comes from alleged relatives. And I'm a bit leery of Bandar giving over chem weapons, and then several almost simultaneous incidents of mishandling them leading to them being set off.

But - like you note - this is following the same script as Iraq did. And as much as I hate to validate anything HC says, Wesley Clark went on record way back in 2001 saying there's an agenda for the Middle East - one that, if true, has been bought into by Pres Obama once he gained office.

roger — September 1, 2013 at 6:04 p.m. ( | suggest removal

goldie: Maybe Benton will ask for a correction and clarification of the parts in the article that are inaccurate and biased.

I really would like to hear from him now that he has seen the finished story.

The state just passed a new law, effective July 28, called the Uniform Correction or Clarification of Defamation Act. It is supposed to make it easier to wring a timely correction out of a newspaper. (I really think it favors the publishers).

Did the journalists contact any former client of Benton's who gave them positive information, but they sat on it, rather than publish it? Now THAT would be something Benton might know and would be worth exposing.

I have seen really nasty hit pieces, but this one seems to have published facts about a public figure. The problem lies in how the public is interpreting those facts. Benton only won by 74 votes in the last election, so he is not well-loved by about half of those who voted. True, I don't trust him, so I interpret those facts in a negative light.

Give me an example of how one might spin those facts positively. It would help me to see the other side.

Let's see how he responds. He has options to fight this. If he does not, that will tell me something, too.

Here is the new law info:

[link text][1]


manthou — September 1, 2013 at 6:04 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Actually, goldie, I just remembered that Benton added an amendment to this law, so he knows it exists.

What would that tell you if he does not request a correction or clarification in writing? If he does, we can watch that play out.

manthou — September 1, 2013 at 6:08 p.m. ( | suggest removal

I'm not understanding this leftist bias perception that the Columbian has with many (on the FB side & here) in it's less than favorable articles regarding BM&M.;

Didn't this paper endorse Mitt Romney less than a year ago, in what was one of the most multi-issue driven election in decades? Didn't the Columbian skewer Jeanne Harris every way but sideways?

This paper seems to be challenging poor governance, regardless of party.

I know old money and special interests play a huge part in Vancouver politics, (as they do about everywhere) but this so-called Columbian leftist bias charge doesn't sit well.

nailingit — September 1, 2013 at 6:23 p.m. ( | suggest removal

roger- This charge that the Huff Po is a fringe publication is pretty silly. Pulitzer Prize aside, most of their stories are sourced from major sources. From The Washington Post to the Daily Kos to the National Review......your charge has no merit.

Granted, the Huff Po leans left in it's selection and commentary, but seriously, a fringe publication? That's like saying Morning Joe is fringe. (only in the ratings:)

Huff Po has a ginormous reader base....might want to redefine "fringe".

Another conservative attempt to devalue other's sources & opinions? :))

Think about it.

nailingit — September 1, 2013 at 6:38 p.m. ( | suggest removal

///Saudi Arabia Backs Syria Strikes, Boosting White House Case///

WASHINGTON -- Saudi Arabia's Foreign Minister Saud al-Faisal called on the international community Sunday to take action against the regime of Syrian President Bashar al-Assad, giving a boost to President Barack Obama's goal of assembling a multinational coalition to intervene in the conflict.

Al-Faisal said Saudi Arabia would back a U.S. strike on Syrian government targets, provided the military intervention was "the will of the Syrian people."

The comments, first reported by Al Jazeera, were made during a meeting of Arab League foreign ministers in Cairo, convened in order to discuss how the 22-member league should respond to the escalating violence in Syria. The meeting came less than two weeks after a sarin gas attack outside Damascus killed more than 1,400 people -- widely believed to be the work of Assad's government.

nailingit — September 1, 2013 at 7:07 p.m. ( | suggest removal

nailingit — September 1, 2013 at 7:07 p.m.

Question... If Saudi Arabia will "back" the US in an attempt to take out the Syrian President, why don't they do it themselves. I'm sure they can afford some stingers and they are sure to "blend" in with the locals.

hawkeye — September 1, 2013 at 7:32 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Morning Joe's rating are lowest when Arianna is a guest commentator. 'Nuf Said!!!

roger — September 1, 2013 at 7:45 p.m. ( | suggest removal


I'm thinking they need to win a few other Arab League nations over before they'll get involved actively. Too bad we alienated the Egyptian coup leaders; I don't know if they would have supported this anyhow, but it would have been nice to have them weigh in condemning the use of chemical weapons by whoever the perpetrator is.

roger — September 1, 2013 at 7:51 p.m. ( | suggest removal

An interesting article in Willamette Week that has bearing on the Oregon attempt to revive the CRC. Nigel Jaquiss points out that PERS reform is the number one issue for Oregonian legislators, and Gov Kitz has them confounded with his waffling on that issue, making last minute changes to an agreed on plan, and instead focusing on reviving the CRC. As the article notes, many voted for the CRC project on political grounds and really weren't that thrilled with it. Senate President Courtney is doing everything but coming straight out and saying can the CRC revival. Kitz will go down like the Titanic if he blows the PERS issue. And he's running out of time!

roger — September 1, 2013 at 8 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Bridge of Sighs

roger — September 1, 2013 at 8:07 p.m. ( | suggest removal

roger: I believe your respectful questioning is starting to change the culture over on the FB side. I thought the dialogue you facilitated with Betty Sue Morris, Ron Goodman, Steve Foster, et al is a first over there. So many of the commenters engage in "parallel talk." By that, I mean, give your opinion and be done. Give your opinion again with a snarky insult. Give your opinion and add some name-calling. I learned a lot more from that lengthy question-and-answer period you led. Although you did not intend it to be, I am sure, it was a good ad for why you should be a Freeholder.

Oregon PERS. I have been watching that like a hawk all summer, as most of the Tier 1 people have, especially those inactives (separated from PERS service). Here we are in September, and PERS and CRC are now intertwined and dependent on a special session. I think it is the death knell for either issue being addressed in time.

manthou — September 1, 2013 at 8:51 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Someone on FB posted a survey from Cheryl Bledsoe's Freeholder campaign page. She is District 2, position 1, I think and she is a manager at CRESA.

The survey is a good one, so chime in when you get the chance. Short and sweet.

[link text][1]


manthou — September 1, 2013 at 8:56 p.m. ( | suggest removal

roger — September 1, 2013 at 7:45 p.m.

That I can totally get behind. She's like fingernails on a blackboard!


nailingit — September 1, 2013 at 7:07 p.m.

"Question... If Saudi Arabia will "back" the US in an attempt to take out the Syrian President, why don't they do it themselves. I'm sure they can afford some stingers and they are sure to "blend" in with the locals."

hawkeye — September 1, 2013 at 7:32 p.m.

I'd say much in part due to politics. Al-Qaeda & Hezbollah are sworn enemies. The Shiite-Sunni thing. Differing ideologies, but like minded enough to fight for the other side when they feel like it. In some ways analogous to Neo-Conservatives vs the Libertarians, with ideologically confused Teabaggers in the middle, and they're all for sale. Who trusts who. Many seem to be something like Mercs on steroids. The one commonality is they all hate Jews.

This NY Times article delves into some of the differences.

And besides, the Saudi's lead us around on a leash. Why take action that brings political fallout when you have America to do your bidding? 15 of 19 hijackers were Saudi, yet no real investigation (on the books) if the Saudi Government was behind it or not. Incredible!! We love em' no matter what. (just keep the oil coming)

It can't be easy to get to Assad. (you can bet we have people looking into that) When he needs to disappear, he disappears. Bunkers, the latest in guns, bombs, lookalikes, a posse to rival Snoop Dog, (or is it Snoop Lion?:) Maybe it's time to call Assad-Chem Dog.

Anyway, I'm sure glad I was born in the good ol' USA. The millions of people over there by & large just want to live there lives in peace. Maybe someday, but I'm afraid not in our lifetimes.

And as Rand Paul reminded us today, there's a large US religious faction that would like to keep Assad in power because he protects Christians. There's that.

Anyway, right or not so right, that's my rambling take.


nailingit — September 1, 2013 at 9:39 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Exclusive: USS Nimitz carrier group rerouted for possible help with Syria

WASHINGTON - The nuclear-powered aircraft carrier USS Nimitz and other ships in its strike group are heading west toward the Red Sea to help support a limited U.S. strike on Syria, if needed, defense officials said on Sunday.
The Nimitz carrier strike group, which includes four destroyers and a cruiser, has no specific orders to move to the eastern Mediterranean at this point, but is moving west in the Arabian Sea so it can do so if asked.

ELISI — September 1, 2013 at 11:52 p.m. ( | suggest removal

I keep wondering how that Madore employment thing is coming along. Did eliminating all those fees bring in more outside businesses? Other than Walmart, who are those businesses taking advantage of those freebees?

hawkeye — September 2, 2013 at 8:57 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Ben Brewer.

Remember the name. This young Republican says he is running against Benton in 2016. His FB post on the C's Benton article:

"Looks like I am throwing in my hat to run against Sen. Don Benton in 2016. Seriously. I can't believe Sen. Benton has the audacity to run again after that shady job hire. I'm angry at the county commissioners too for giving Sen Benton that job he didn't earn. I have had to work my ass off to get to where I am today, and likely most of the people on this comment board have as well. I'm pissed off at both parties for the ridiculous way they handled the CRC. None of them knew a damn thing about building a bridge. They stuck to their ridiculous talking points, and we got no where. I use to work in PR, so I know how ignorant and unproductive talking points can be. Let's get some honesty and integrity back into this position. Plan on me donating my state sen. salary back to charities in my district. I am a republican, but I am very angry with the way these older republicans are ruining my party and solidifying all of the stereotypes of being republican. Its time for my generation to step up and lead this state into the future. Please message me if you would like to help me run in 2016. Thanks. - Benjamin"

Sounds good to me, Ben. Go for it and Godspeed!

His Portland Business Journal profile:

manthou — September 2, 2013 at 9:17 a.m. ( | suggest removal

I thought the media said things were improving here???

goldenoldie — September 2, 2013 at 10:54 a.m. ( | suggest removal

"It can't be easy to get to Assad. (you can bet we have people looking into that)" nailingit — September 1, 2013 at 9:39 p.m

Indira Gandhi was taken out by 2 of her own Sikhi bodyguards after she ordered the destruction (she called it 'subdue') of the Sikhis who had baracaded themselves inside their own holy shrine, The Golden Temple when they were protesting to form their own country from the lands of Punjab. The death toll remainds disputed, up to 5000, mostly civilians who were there to worship. Retaliation is almost a given, based solely on historial examples, tho it may take years. People, whoever they may be, do not forgive or forget injustice.

jacjak — September 2, 2013 at 10:58 a.m. ( | suggest removal

manthou — September 1, 2013 at 6:04 p.m.

You make viable points and I agree with you that responding to the article with facts and clarifications would be to his benefit, but if you can't see this article as a hit piece in an attempt to disrupt a seasoned politician's career in order to make it favorable for a highly controversial crossing project...

Then maybe a spiritual cleansing of the soul away from the internet for a day or so might be in your favor.

I have never ever seen a write up so lengthy as I do this one...and for what purpose??? Tell me this, manthou...

Name ONE seasoned politician without something questionable in their lifetime...Just ONE.

Just some FFT!

goldenoldie — September 2, 2013 at 10:59 a.m. ( | suggest removal

ELISI — September 1, 2013 at 11:52 p.m.

According to reports this morning, Assad isn't taking Obama's word very seriously since Obama decided to go about things the right way (or at least as right as they consider it in terms of law). I only hope our POTUS doesn't go ahead and jump the gun and make the executive decision if the Congress says No. Maybe the G20 Summit will be the deciding factor. We cannot afford to let it slide but we also cannot afford to start up another war...especially with Syria.

BTW...latest reports out of Japan...Fukushima Nuke Plants are releasing much higher amounts of radioactive material into the Pacific. They're working on preventing runoff but that may not be completed till 2020. In the meantime...

What does that do for the fishing industry??? Supposedly by the time it reaches US coastlines, the radioactive levels are within the normal range (I've heard that one before).

goldenoldie — September 2, 2013 at 11:07 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Goldenoldie,I don't think much of Mr. Benton either.I have watched him a lot over the years and it seems as he has always gotten in hot water with his actions or inactions if you will.The only constructive thing I have seen is his stance on the CRC.I think Madore made a big mistake in hiring him.And that is going to cost Madore down the road.I wanted to see the county get shook up just as bad as most.But I believe he did it the wrong way and to fast.The toes you step on have a habit of coming back and having the whole foot step on you.I guess we will see how all this comes out.

timerick — September 2, 2013 at 11:20 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Tim...I'm not one to support career politicians and Benton is a career politician (as are Moeller, Murray and a kajillion others). Regarding his job with the county, yes his hiring was questionable...but he was hired and he does have the right to prove himself as being worthy of the position through his performance on the job in the first six months. If he's not doing what he was hired to do, then they need to find someone else.

Regarding I'd said awhile back, there was something I didn't quite trust about the man. Yes, he's charismatic...but he's also an opportunistic type (at least that's the impression I got at the open house). It was enough for me to not vote for the man. Call it my intuition or whatever.

goldenoldie — September 2, 2013 at 11:29 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Regarding his job with the county, yes his hiring was questionable...but he was hired and he does have the right to prove himself as being worthy of the position through his performance on the job in the first six months. goldenoldie — September 2, 2013 at 11:29 a.m

"Questionable"? Seriously?

No vetting, no application, no competition, no questions asked? Yea, questionable at the least.

And "six months"? Who gets six months to prove themselves? 90 days at the most. And in his first 90 days he takes half of them off. Would you or I get that much leeway? I think not. Every job I've had I was warned NOT to take time off in the first six months or else.

This whole thing is sideways, slimy and wrong.

hawkeye — September 2, 2013 at 11:43 a.m. ( | suggest removal

goldie: Glad to see that you are too smart for Madore's charms. Some of my friends weren't and regret it to the max today.

Please take this as the good-natured tease it is: Do you read minds? How do you know what the journalists' motivations are with respect to the Benton article.

Do you think Scott Campbell sat down with Lou B, Stevie Mathieu and Erin Middlewood and gave them their marching orders? "It's payback time for Benton. You must write an article to destroy him for destroying the CRC."

There is a firewall between publishers and the newsroom, goldie. It is damn near inviolate.

No, Benton is self-destructing through his choices and behavior. The journalists just documented the many instances over the years. When you see them all together, the shock factor is compounded.

You think bad press about Benton is going to revitalize the CRC? Hardly. It has its own problems to overcome.

Has Madore come out yet to defend this cronyman he hired? Nope. All you guys crying foul are lonely cries in the night.

But, I respect your right to complain about it.

manthou — September 2, 2013 at 12:24 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Imagine if the Benton scenario was reversed, and 2 Liberal County Democrat Commissioners pulled this ridiculous hiring stunt, and not only hired an unqualified questionably dirty to the bone Dem for over a hundred grand a year, but basically said to the voters, like it or lump it.

And the justification on the left was "they all do it. let's give him a chance."

Then suggest those who appreciate their local newspaper exposing such corruption seek a spiritual cleansing.

Ideology over good governance.

A big goldenoldie.....sigh.

go-I think more is getting baked than your tasty zucchini bread. If that's the case, try a mild Sativa strain, and work your way up. :)

nailingit — September 2, 2013 at 12:49 p.m. ( | suggest removal

manthou — September 2, 2013 at 12:24 p.m.

Let's just's a hunch...intuition...educated guess...whatever you would like to call it. And I won't take it seriously. Thank you for recognizing my right to my opinion whether it be right or wrong...but who's to say if we are right or wrong??? Regarding your lighthearted comment...timing is the big deal, here. Could it be that Benton already knows there's no stopping the project...just postponement... and he's the chosen scapegoat...and that Stevie and Erin have without realizing, been made pawns in the game...the overall plan - the MASTER PLAN of cluster development and the NAFTA Superhighway which was in recent years renamed the Corridors of the Future??? Something to think about, my dear.

nailingit — September 2, 2013 at 12:49 p.m. (as well as the rest of you who have directed questions and comments to me regarding Benton)

Unfortunately, as long as there are no term limits...they will all continue the corruptive, sidewinding, wrangling games they have played in politics since day one. It doesn't make it right...not by a long shot but honestly nails...if he's going down, shouldn't all the others who have undermined the legal system and lied and cheated their way to get where they are today ALSO go down??? Why is it we haven't seen a big write up about Moeller's or Leavitt's insincerity and their little wordplays they've done??? Why is it our current president and presidents of the past have gotten away with lying to the taxpayers...the voters??? Tell me how we as individuals can stop what it is they've been doing for decades??? Maybe even centuries???

And the big question is...who will be the ones to fund all the hearings and investigations??? I'd bet ya a dime to a would be the taxpayers!

I asked something recently...and still I've seen no answers from anybody. I asked...what happened to the official CRC audit? Was this yet another political lie by our governor in order to win support from those in opposition of the CRC which includes loo rail??? Does he really care what type of financial hit the local taxpayers in Clark County will feel as long as he doesn't do something to help bring thousands of PERMANENT living-wage jobs to our county? Quite frankly, about the only thing any politician cares about is their own wallets. They don't give a rat's arse about us li'l people!

goldenoldie — September 2, 2013 at 2:36 p.m. ( | suggest removal

goldie: I am stuck at the beach with a broken turbo on my TDI diesel VW. Oh, darn. I may never come back. :)

I think the governator said that there was not going to be an audit because there is no money for it:

[link text][1]


manthou — September 2, 2013 at 2:47 p.m. ( | suggest removal

manthou — September 2, 2013 at 2:47 p.m.

You poor girl..stuck at the beach. How sad, especially with all the vacationers returning home today. (Maybe it's a good don't have to face that traffic nightmare.) When it is time to come back this way...I wish you a safe return home.

Regarding the audit...don't you find it the least bit suspicious that the governor would rather throw away the audit for a piddlin' cost which could in turn...return some substantial Washington State-funded dollars back to where they belong? Some may consider it suspicious in nature. There is after all, a rather large discrepancy in the books with the CRC according to Tiffany Couch. Wouldn't that bring up a red flag, sure to bring questions to the mind of our governor??? They sure were quick to close the chapter and put all the documentation in storage, even though their biggest supporters - both governors - are still cheerleading the project in a new form.

A goldenoldie SIGH.................................

goldenoldie — September 2, 2013 at 3:11 p.m. ( | suggest removal

manthou — September 2, 2013 at 2:47 p.m.

See, that's why you need AAA premier. 200 miles free towing.

hawkeye — September 2, 2013 at 3:13 p.m. ( | suggest removal's a bit of reading for you while you wait for your VeeDub -

Apparently it's still going unless someone can find some evidence that it isn't.

goldenoldie — September 2, 2013 at 3:14 p.m. ( | suggest removal

goldenoldie — September 2, 2013 at 2:36 p.m.

There's so many red herrings and fallacies in your statement it's not worth continuing. Seriously, why go to these lengths.

Some things are just wrong. I'm not sure what's worse. People like MM&B; furthering corruption in our system, or those condoning it. Either way...'s a crap shoot for sure.

nailingit — September 2, 2013 at 4:03 p.m. ( | suggest removal

hawkeye: Like the mother of Eagle Scouts, I am prepared. I have AAA premier. I am having it towed to a shop in Astoria that services diesels tomorrow.

goldie: Thanks for the audit documents. My political homework. I keep trying to stay away from this stuff, but it keeps drawing me in.

manthou — September 2, 2013 at 4:45 p.m. ( | suggest removal

The whole CRC has had a black cloud hanging over it from the start.Our government has done everything they could to keep the particulars away from the voters.Unless you were one of the chosen few, you weren't included.I don't agree with much Madore has done recently but he did bring the faults of the CRC to light.It has also been people like Roger who have helped to put in words that lay people can understand.I don't think the average voter really paid much attention until some of us started to question what was really going on.I have to agree with HC that all these elected officals are corrupt and need to be replaced.This whole County and City has been run by a hand full of big money people for as long as I have lived here.And thats been going on 64 years.My father and my business partner knew this years ago.They should have spoke up back then but they were content to let things be.It is not only the CRC it has been and continues to be just about every facet of the mega projects that happen in this county.The old saying that them that got are them that get.It needs to stop and the average person has to regain control.It is obvious our votes have not produced much.We need to better inform ourselves.

timerick — September 2, 2013 at 5:57 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Looks like the Clark County Repubs aren't the only ones who kick people out for not agreeing with the party line. Brian Sonntag has had his WA State Dem party affiliation revoked by the State Chairman.

roger — September 2, 2013 at 6:05 p.m. ( | suggest removal

nailingit — September 2, 2013 at 4:03 p.m.

Just for the record, I'm not condoning such actions.

goldenoldie — September 2, 2013 at 6:13 p.m. ( | suggest removal

There's still going to be an audit of the CRC, but it's going to be a cursory look rather than going in depth.

The Senate had earmarked $200K in the budget for an audit. The Joint Legislative Audit and Review Committee got the money, but they said they couldn't do the job and contracted with the State Auditor. He doesn't consider this important enough to spend any of his office's funding on. Results are expected by April. I haven't seen any reference to the subject since the 9-10 August time frame; no idea where it stands in light of the revival attempt. Frankly, if this does proceed, I suspect we're wasting the money. They're going to focus on overcharges or unauthorized services; they should be looking at the broader picture of the complete incompetence of the WSDOT contracting operation. They exercised no oversight on the CRC, and relied on David Evans and Associates to account for all expenditures. Tiffany Couch had addressed all of this to the Legislature, noting that nearly every contract entered into went over budget, and that $20 million couldn't even be accounted for. This was ignored.

roger — September 2, 2013 at 6:19 p.m. ( | suggest removal


It's probably too late, but if you have 200 miles free towing, why not have the car towed here (Vancouver or Portland) to a VW dealership? They're all thieves up in that neck of the woods. (Well, the body shops are, anyhow.) And they'll have to order the parts from here anyway.

roger — September 2, 2013 at 6:27 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Roger thieves is such a terrible thing to say.Lets just call them opertortunist.That sounds better.

timerick — September 2, 2013 at 6:34 p.m. ( | suggest removal


I have 2 cars in Astoria - Any major work needed and I have the cars driven or towed back to Portland. I've yet to have a final bill out of that area that doesn't go at least 25% over the estimate. And that's the only area of either state I seem to have this problem in. In fact, the only other place that bad is American Samoa!!!

roger — September 2, 2013 at 6:57 p.m. ( | suggest removal

roger — September 2, 2013 at 6:27 p.m.

You know, I was thinking the same thing. Then if it took some time, at least she'd be home. I hear Gaynors is pretty good.

hawkeye — September 2, 2013 at 7:12 p.m. ( | suggest removal

I wonder how much Ms. Couch got paid for the in-depth audit she did? If it was less than $200,000 then why would it cost the state more to do the same thing? Just askin'. If the cost of her audit was published I didn't see it.

JohnCasey — September 3, 2013 at 6:07 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Wow, I had more than a half of inch of rain last night. Thunder and lightning, some fun.

hawkeye — September 3, 2013 at 6:38 a.m. ( | suggest removal

hawkeye — September 3, 2013 at 6:38 a.m.

We had a deluge of downpours for almost an hour straight, combined with a wonderful lightning show, then intermittent heavy showers. An amazing sight was watching cloud to cloud lightning from a distance. You could see the entire cloud light up. At least we weren't in the middle of a Fire Weather Watch.

Rain is good.

It was worth watching. Too bad someone received some major damage to their home, though.

BTW...looks like someone's on vacation. It's already the 3rd and no new forum week as of this time.

goldenoldie — September 3, 2013 at 12:12 p.m. ( | suggest removal

It's up!

nailingit — September 3, 2013 at 12:37 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Yep. It showed up 4 minutes after I said something...a coincidence most likely. See ya on the new week.

goldenoldie — September 3, 2013 at 2:39 p.m. ( | suggest removal

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