Open forum, Dec 2-8



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*** Bark of the week! ***

What part of "integrity" Clark County "Three Stooges" did not understand when they were supposed to read Clark County's HR Policy Manual?;_medium=rss&utm;_campaign=integrity-already-defined-in-county-hr-manual

It is all there in a few sentences....Thank you Stephanie Rice...

Now the question is why the three stooges still have a job? Why Clark County does not flush the toilett swiftly on this corrupted kind?

What is holding them? Who is in charge of Clark County? Truly... If it is the corrupted ones, the freeholders ought to take notice and have a mechanism that will fire the violators immediately after the offense.

::::tapping foot:::: and waiting for their immediate resignation or firing....anything less is saying...accept it, you are forced to live in a corrupted system and we only want you to pay the piper, you mean nothing, we just want your money....

nicepuppy — December 2, 2013 at 7:07 a.m. ( | suggest removal

*** Bark of the week! ***

somehow I don't see you holding off that long. Just kidding, some of your "barks" make for some good, if not entertaining, reading.

mrd — December 2, 2013 at 7:22 a.m. ( | suggest removal

RTC Meeting tomorrow at 4 PM. Discussion of another Madore-proposed resolution. How much time will be spent on it? It appears to be a resolution to support a previous 2008 resolution. Any high capacity transit funding should go to a vote of IMPACTED voters. The LPA in that 2008 resolution is light rail.

We should have a Forum pool or Fantasy Board Hearings predictions game. One hour? Two hours? Who will align with Madore? If this resolution simply re-affirms the 2008 one, why bother?

In the meantime, as you spend your precious time penning these obsessive resolutions, I am till waiting, David Madore, for your response about the public safety/human rights issue I placed on your desk nearly a month ago. I won't go away and neither will the problem.

manthou — December 2, 2013 at 7:38 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Thank you mrd but the hiatus was not voluntary. Had an emergency to take care of.

In addition to the bark of the week and this is me and how I would act in front of such outrage of Benton's hiring....

First, the Three Stooges are Madore, Mielke and Benton. There is a fourth though and that is Stuart.

I would have resigned that board in a NY minute because I would refuse to work besides corrupted people. Stuart does not have that moral compass "enforceable". He continues being an unwilling player where his vote means nothing. What is he doing there? He is "bench warming", nothing more. That is the truth. Does he need that lousy job so much? Is that the "pinnacle" of his existence?

Think about it, that Board is a waste of money and time. What do they do that translate to you into "prosperity"? Nothing! Zero! Nada! They are just collecting your money, putting it in their pockets and celebrating xmas and thanksgiving while you are struggling to put a roof over your head and food on your kid's mouth. That is the truth!

About Madonis and his "job growth" stats.... This guy is an idiot. He comes up with a summary four liner at grade school level with no real data to back it up. All the construction bosses hiring illegals to build apartments must be happy but what family wage job did you get?

Fire them all and start fresh with real people that are smart, articulate, attentive, have the connections and know how and are not semi comatose!

Clark County Board of Commissioners is like going to a Walmart where you find the lower percentile IQ of the population.

Barking away and I will not shut up until the four are gone!

nicepuppy — December 2, 2013 at 7:43 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Another timeline reminder:

In 13 days, less than 2 weeks, Anita Largent's tort claim notice expires and her attorney can then file a formal lawsuit.

Another pool opportunity: Will Clark County settle in the next couple of weeks? Or will it be willing to face the risks of trial? Greg Ferguson can start taking depositions after a lawsuit is filed, so, it still may settle before a trial, once it sees the content of Mielke and Madore's depos. Or not.

Our hard-earned tax dollars well-spent: defending elected officials who do stupid stuff.

manthou — December 2, 2013 at 7:47 a.m. ( | suggest removal

a comment from the FB side after the article on school security. Makes you they say-This guy has issues.

Assault weapons were already banned in Connecticut, but Nancy Lanza (A TEACHER THERE) purportedly owned and arsenal of weapons - to include said assault rifles. So.....she was this elementary school teacher by day and a gun-toting hot mama on the side, of which OWNING illegal weapons would have been AOK by her husband? I do not buy this story in the least. No pics of the open caskets allowed by relatives and they razed the school to the ground and all the bizarre behavior of the smiling parents (MERE HOURS) after their kids are supposedly killed. Nope....They tried to sell me on 9/11 and Waco and OK City, too. Not buying this for a second. Why no FOIA in this? You Columbian reporters are REPEATERS and you are a disgrace to journalism for not looking beyond the obvious gaffes in information and common sense. No kids died at Sandy Hook. Prove me wrong. None of the BS story adds up. When people do not care to look into things, they are simply ingesting information and are nothing more than consumers of disinformation. Please, let's not have any liars tell me they know people there. You do not. Sandy Hook was a flat out hoax and it is a vehicle to take the weapons away from the people. THINK. Emotion does not override facts. Hate me now or's not like we hang out, anyway.

mrd — December 2, 2013 at 7:54 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Thanks for keeping track on the Anita tort claim manthou. Your attentive eyes and ears are appreciated by this nobody! :)

nicepuppy — December 2, 2013 at 8:01 a.m. ( | suggest removal

mrd @ 7:54 am. Oh, dear. No kids dies at Sandy Hook? My friend's son-in-law is a pediatrician who lost several of his little patients that day. I hope that families don't see that comment.

Opinions like that, well: what can I say? Stupid is not illegal. Neither is being insensitive.

manthou — December 2, 2013 at 8:53 a.m. ( | suggest removal

That sounds like a write up of KJ Hinton manthou and mrd.

On this loser credit, the government does a terrible job on showing us the truth. He has many good points there. Why demolish a school? All the millions that it cost taxpayers. It is ridiculous. How many palaces, government offices have been destroyed, burned, rebuild through out history and nobody raised a stink?

I don't believe in the 9/11 story as explained by our government nor I believe in a bunch of other insanities as explained by our government. Geez, even the Kennedy assassination has not been explained to complete satisfaction.

The loser has undeniable points. Insensitive yes, but not to question the news fed to us is as insensitive and dumb as they come....

nicepuppy — December 2, 2013 at 9:30 a.m. ( | suggest removal


I totally agree that we should be very skeptical of the BS we're spoonfed daily by the corporate owned conglomerate media. Political "press releases" deserve even more skepticism. But to deny 9/11, Sandy Hook, and Oklahoma City ever occurred? Oh well, I suppose there are those that still don't believe we've actually landed on the moon.

mrd — December 2, 2013 at 9:42 a.m. ( | suggest removal

manthou — December 2, 2013 at 7:38 a.m.

Forum pool --- Who will align with Madore?

I can't participate until someone explains Bill Ganly to me. Sometimes I think he is being held hostage.

langenthal — December 2, 2013 at 9:46 a.m. ( | suggest removal

The part that you guys miss about Madonis is that he is an evangelical, he worked for Trinity Broadcasting which spread them world wide and their mission is to take over the world, plain and simple. This is not a conspiracy theory, they are doing it. They are gathering the money of the ignorant by brainwashing them, getting into local governments like Madonis is doing and are involved at all levels of businesses like the Mormons, the Catholics and many others.

They are very smart because unlike the walmart shopper, they do it tax free.

They have their crusade people and you have seriously been sleeping at the wheel. This goons are working the crowds world wide.

Billy Graham has been doing it for decades. Paul Crouch the Trinity Guy that just died was a professional crook and the Bakers and many others to include Robertson.

Hold on to whatever is left on your wallets people and do some serious repenting or this guys will deep fry you unless you become their slaves. Their God is money, not the one we believe in. Because in reality, if you believe the tale, the only way to be saved is to become a Jesus, do what Jesus do. Get rid off all your possesions, go live with the poor, suffer like the poor, help the poor and not from an executive bench but bare footed, hungry as hell and half freezing to death.

That is the part these crooks have missed....they are charlatans wanting total control over the masses. In the past there were the Kings, and the Pope but now is money, money, money and the best vehicle is scaring you to death, own the weapons industry, pay you the least and submit you while throwing the bible on your face.

Watch out, don't even think of did not know... Evangelicals are on a mission a worldwide mission. They are infiltrating every existing power office and gaining full control.

You see it right here in Clark County.

nicepuppy — December 2, 2013 at 10:03 a.m. ( | suggest removal

First, the Three Stooges are Madore, Mielke and Benton. There is a fourth though and that is Stuart.

I would have resigned that board in a NY minute because I would refuse to work besides corrupted people. Stuart does not have that moral compass "enforceable". He continues being an unwilling player where his vote means nothing. What is he doing there?

nicepuppy — December 2, 2013 at 7:43 a.m.

Well, we all have our favorite stooges, I guess...
You ask what Steve Stuart is doing there... he's holding the line. That's an ole military/union/freedom phrase, and it sort of works in this instance too. Stuart is the man between the community and unrestrained mismanagements. He's vocal, always having to reiterate, restate, retell way too much regarding such elementary constucts as county policy. Each time he speaks up he is speaking out too. Even when voted down, which is always, he endorses the idea that voters do not have clairvoyance to perceive events after the fact, so he makes sure they are IN THE RECORD for all to witness. And why. Him quiting in a fit of pique just to make a grand stand would only allow a clear field for more ineptitude. And, for any of us who had hoped initially Madore just had a slight learning curve to overcome are now thankful Stuart is there. Being a thorn in the paw of someone who views himself as a Lion of Change may not be a lofty thing to aspire to in anyone's definition of pinnacle of existance, but for me, I'm glad Stuart is right where he is.

jacjak — December 2, 2013 at 10:04 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Manthou you are never going to get a response from David Madore. You do not fit in his mold. He is like the fire and brimstone preacher. It is either his way or none at all. He should have stuck with what he knows. People do not like being lead by the nose. Unless you are the type to buy into his religious thinking.

timerick — December 2, 2013 at 10:18 a.m. ( | suggest removal

In the past there were the Kings, and the Pope but now is money, money, money and the best vehicle is scaring you to death, own the weapons industry, pay you the least and submit you while throwing the bible on your face.
nicepuppy — December 2, 2013 at 10:03 a.m.

I think you've hit the mark with almost every word of this post. Even regarding some of those who are not charlatans just so they can live a life of opulance. It's only about the money as a tool for some. But they all have always been with us. The Inquisitioners did not come from the governments, but from the church. Ultimately it's about control and dominitation either through the money or through the mind.

jacjak — December 2, 2013 at 10:26 a.m. ( | suggest removal

You got it Jacjak! I second what you said!

I do have my gun ready for the inquisitors ain't gonna be easy for these pr cks to get rid off this devil or the ones like me, especially the biker kind....not without a fight at least...

nicepuppy — December 2, 2013 at 10:37 a.m. ( | suggest removal

mrd — December 2, 2013 at 7:54 a.m.

Did they pull that post? Not finding it...

jacjak — December 2, 2013 at 10:39 a.m. ( | suggest removal

manthou — December 2, 2013 at 7:38 a.m.

I've posted a link to the SW WA RTC website a few times. The LPA for Clark County is NOT light rail; it's bus rapid transit, augmented by bus and express bus service. An exception was made for the area covered by the CRC, where they deferred to that agency.

As for going to the voters, that's IAW RCW 81.112. Needless to say, that vote hasn't happened either.

roger — December 2, 2013 at 10:48 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Oh I forgot Jacjak

Concerning the comment about Stuart. His problem is that he is not loud and clear enough...

Case in point. Last Tuesday when Madonis was trying to pass his BStegrity Inquisition. Stuart although questioned why everything was not put in the web site for everyone to see, Stuart should have said Stop!!!!!!!!!!!! Stop right here. We need to postpone this to next week so I have an opportunity to read this. Madonis gave him an out to postpone and idiot Stuart did not take it. That is dumb! In the meantime, "semicomatose" Mielke, want it to pass the dumb resolution because if was affecting his nap time. What an idiot that guy is. He is an embarrassment to anyone. So "unsharp" to make up a word.

Stuart need to make a point instead of holding the line. If a Commissioner stands up and say, I don't want to be in this Board because is making not only dumb decisions but doing unethical hiring practices, he will gain respect and would send the BOCC into a "constitutional crisis" so to speak and something will have to be done concerning the Benton hiring immediately. Be he does not have the nuts. He is holding no line as far as I am concerned. He has become "one of them".

Some defend Benton. I would like to know, what does the guy do all day, what is his time sheet. Who does he call, who does he email with and about what. What is his freaking job description. Also, I would like input for all the employees under his direction and see what they are working on. That ought to be public record and be on the grid as well.

K...I need to bang the guitar a bit because that is what I do. Rocking is where you channel your contempt about this crooks, otherwise it would be a bloody bath....LOL

nicepuppy — December 2, 2013 at 10:49 a.m. ( | suggest removal

mrd — December 2, 2013 at 7:54 a.m.

Did they pull that post? Not finding it...

it's gone. It was the first posting below the article, but it's gone now. For what it's worth, I copied the entire posting.

mrd — December 2, 2013 at 11:59 a.m. ( | suggest removal

roger: Thanks for the correction. I'll take anything on wheels at this point and yes, give everyone a GD vote, one that is binding so we can move on to other ills. But before we do, I want my vote for future administrative employee hires. :)

langenthal: Bill Ganley's even temperament makes for a patient, tolerant teacher of young people. I shake my head sometimes after he takes a vote, though. I wonder if he will retain his Chair with the RTC and C-Tran Board. He often seems confused with the process and lost in the technical language.

timerick: You are so right about me and Madore. Oil and H2O. I still will needle him about matters-of-consequence, especially when he takes up so much time on his resolutions. By God, he intends to shame and scold everyone into obedience through endless words and lectures. It works for him somewhere with someone, or he would have abandoned this technique long ago. For most of us, it is like waving a red cape in front of a bull.

manthou — December 2, 2013 at 2:18 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Manthou after reading what you and Roger have wrote about the RTC and C-Tran, I think that the whole bunch needs to go. The deceit seems to be contagious among the board of both. do any of these people know how to listen and represent the will of the voters. Oh thats right we haven't got a vote on some of this stuff. This whole county is just unbelievable. I don't trust any of them anymore. Puppy is right clean house.

timerick — December 2, 2013 at 3:41 p.m. ( | suggest removal

taking "slumming" to a whole new level. Coming soon to an American city, Detroit maybe?

mrd — December 2, 2013 at 4:11 p.m. ( | suggest removal

The problem with cleaning house and starting over w/the various transportation boards and planning commissions is that we'd have start over. It could easily take ten years to get to where we are now, and given the contentious nature of transportation planning, it's likely that the fresh set of players will find themselves surrounded by hostile taxpayers defending a transportation plan that doesn't please everybody, $25 tolls, and facing charges by opportunistic johnny-come-lately politicians of personal corruption and malfeasance in office.

Some things just don't change.

would quite likely find itself in the same dysfunctional-unable to reach a consensus situation ten years from now regarding a transit plan that won't please everyone.

JohnK — December 2, 2013 at 4:43 p.m. ( | suggest removal

manthou --- Thanks. That's the way I read him too. He doesn't seem engaged. It frequently seems like he loses his place but always votes with Madore. It's clear that Freeman and Mielke are going to vote as a block w/Madore. I continue to be surprised when Ganley votes. I just get an impression that he's made a deal with the devil and he's honoring it. He loves articulated buses from his college days.

langenthal — December 2, 2013 at 5:12 p.m. ( | suggest removal

langenthal — December 2, 2013 at 5:12 p.m.

I love articulated buses too. I can't wait to see one take the corner at Broadway and Fourth Plain headed East. Man, that's going to take a week.

As far as Meilke goes, I just found out he has a computer AND a FB account. Who knew. I wonder who logs on for him.

hawkeye — December 2, 2013 at 6:35 p.m. ( | suggest removal


The State transportation law embodied in RCW 81 directs voter approval of the system plan and the financing plan for high capacity transit (81.104) and for a regional transportation plan (81.112). Why this requirement for a vote exists I can't say, though I suspect it lies with the long term debt any such plan will require.

The issue isn't so much one of having an updated transportation infrastructure, but one of what and where. The problem is that there is no agreed upon vision for the future that has a universal buy in. And what we got with the CRC was Vancouver City Council flipping the rest of us off - They were going to get what they wanted, and all of us were going to help pay for it. What they didn't count on was the recession; too many people joined the anti- side because we decided we couldn't afford the cost of a project with such little benefit.

If the CRC had remained about pushing larger numbers of vehicles more quickly, then the push back from the rest of us would have been much less and probably of no consequence. But the project mutated into one of redefining what we are - Suburbanites with our strip malls and cars need to go, to make room for those holding the viewpoint that high density dwellings along mass transportation corridors reduces our impact on the environment and is therefore desirable. Sorry, Dorothy, but that doesn't play in Kansas.

roger — December 2, 2013 at 6:56 p.m. ( | suggest removal

roger- Although I don't agree with your "flipping the rest of us off" statement, (as many of us embraced this project for the future well-being of our community) I agree with your take on expenditure. Too many people didn't want to reach into their pockets.

nailingit — December 2, 2013 at 7:16 p.m. ( | suggest removal

roger: You have a deep big-picture grasp of this contentious issue, for sure. Much more than I.

I do believe that someone/some group in Portlandia or Salem decided people need to get out of their cars in Clark County and into mass transit. There is good science behind the effort.

I am happy, even thrilled to abandon my car for light rail or bus rapid transit (that's the Chicago kid in me who grew up with the South Shore line, the El and toll roads galore), but I realize it is asking much from Clark County's majority, most of whom live outside the cities and rely on their cars and trucks exclusively. How many have even used mass transit? There was never any buy-in from a large segment of the population here. What we are seeing now is the result of a successful mass push-back and, unless Oregon has steel resolve and legislative muscle, this project is dead.

manthou — December 2, 2013 at 7:20 p.m. ( | suggest removal

OMG. Carolyn Crain at the City Council meeting just now used "circle jerk" as an analogy.

Does she know what that means? She actually said that.

manthou — December 2, 2013 at 7:33 p.m. ( | suggest removal

My guess is she's extremely well versed.

nailingit — December 2, 2013 at 7:36 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Stephanie Rice tweets that Boy Scout Troop 320 was at the city council meeting tonight. Well, Carolyn gave them their merit badge worth. This is a meeting they will be talking about for a loooooong time.

manthou — December 2, 2013 at 8:17 p.m. ( | suggest removal

manthou — December 2, 2013 at 7:33 p.m.

Was Carolyn referring to Madore, Meilke and Benton?

OK, that's as far as I go with that one.

hawkeye — December 2, 2013 at 9:14 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Please think of this when voting next year.

nailingit — December 3, 2013 at 12:09 a.m. ( | suggest removal


i believe winters here....isn'tthis supposed to be global warming...?

gore has to get credit for inventing a fantasy product (carbon credits), then trying to corner the market for selling it.

thanks but no thanks.

DeeLittle — December 3, 2013 at 3:29 a.m. ( | suggest removal

I'd say dear Carolyn has no clue about the meaning - probably confused it with soda jerks.

But on looking up the definition of soda jerk, I find - "The name soda jerk came from the "jerking" action the server would use to swing the soda fountain handle back and forth when adding the soda water."

And on that note....

roger — December 3, 2013 at 5:37 a.m. ( | suggest removal

A tale of Vancouver, a bridge and 80,000 commuters.

Once upon a time there were three billy goats, who were to go up to the hillside to make themselves fat, and the name of all three was "Gruff."
On the way up was a bridge over a cascading stream they had to cross; and under the bridge lived a great ugly troll , with eyes as big as saucers, and a nose as long as a poker.
So first of all came the youngest Billy Goat Gruff to cross the bridge.
"Trip, trap, trip, trap! " went the bridge.
"Who's that tripping over my bridge?" roared the troll .
"Oh, it is only I, the tiniest Billy Goat Gruff , and I'm going up to the hillside to make myself fat," said the billy goat, with such a small voice.
"Now, I'm coming to gobble you up," said the troll.
"Oh, no! pray don't take me. I'm too little, that I am," said the billy goat. "Wait a bit till the second Billy Goat Gruff comes. He's much bigger."
"Well, be off with you," said the troll.
A little while after came the second Billy Goat Gruff to cross the bridge.
Trip, trap, trip, trap, trip, trap, went the bridge.
"Who's that tripping over my bridge?" roared the troll.
"Oh, it's the second Billy Goat Gruff , and I'm going up to the hillside to make myself fat," said the billy goat, who hadn't such a small voice.
"Now I'm coming to gobble you up," said the troll.
"Oh, no! Don't take me. Wait a little till the big Billy Goat Gruff comes. He's much bigger."
"Very well! Be off with you," said the troll.
But just then up came the big Billy Goat Gruff .
Trip, trap, trip, trap, trip, trap! went the bridge, for the billy goat was so heavy that the bridge creaked and groaned under him.
"Who's that tramping over my bridge?" roared the troll.
"It's I! The big Billy Goat Gruff ," said the billy goat, who had an ugly hoarse voice of his own.
"Now I 'm coming to gobble you up," roared the troll.
Well, come along! I've got two spears,
And I'll poke your eyeballs out at your ears;
I've got besides two curling-stones,
And I'll crush you to bits, body and bones.
That was what the big billy goat said. And then he flew at the troll, and poked his eyes out with his horns, and crushed him to bits, body and bones, and tossed him out into the cascade, and after that he went up to the hillside. There the billy goats got so fat they were scarcely able to walk home again. And if the fat hasn't fallen off them, why, they're still fat; and so,
Snip, snap, snout.
This tale's told out.

roger — December 3, 2013 at 6:27 a.m. ( | suggest removal

manthou — December 2, 2013 at 7:20 p.m.

That was Metro, back in the 90's. Their plan is/was to reduce the area's carbon footprint despite expected population growth through forcing the use of mass transportation and high density housing. The (presumably) unintended consequence was that housing became too expensive, and people kept moving further out (to include here to Clark). Public transportation could not and cannot keep up with this growth pattern.

I don't believe Salem has the interest to keep pushing the project. The potential for failure to meet payment schedules is too great, and the perceived value of the project to Oregon is too little.

roger — December 3, 2013 at 6:38 a.m. ( | suggest removal

roger: Very clever fairy tale with a local interpretation. :)

nailingit @ 12:09 am: There was a similar story about Oregon food stamp recipients in the O yesterday. Real people with real needs. Do we want to be a society that causes greater suffering on the vulnerable? Are we there already?

I was watching "Newsroom" last night. I am only up to the 4th episode, first season. I catch up on shows when I have the time. Aaron Sorkin, like he did in West Wing, is raising his own voice through his characters, this time doing a good job on media ethics and tea party politics. I keep thinking that Keith Olbermann is the inspiration for Will McAvoy. Anyway, demonizing the poor. Voting against your own interests to become soldiers of the rich and brilliant, our intellectual and financial superiors. Whipping up the underinformed voter with misinformation and fear: its all laid out in that series so far. Love Sam Waterston's performance!

I enjoyed reading Scott Hewitt's story about the generous Mint Tea diner who gave the young waitress a $700 tip to start her own jewelry-making business. I am sure there are many similar untold tales of local kindness year-round in Clark County…..

manthou — December 3, 2013 at 6:52 a.m. ( | suggest removal

*** Howl and Bark of the Day! ***

Kudos for the Columbian. Spelled out for everyone to understand and process accordingly....

Perhaps what infuriates me the most, is the lack of the Three Stooges to take to heart what we the citizens are yelling at the four winds. It is not a partisan thing in my case. It is a basic values thing. Some people just don't have them or have a warped understanding of them.

I don't have respect for these clowns. I don't! I will never have any respect unless they sincerely apologize to Clark County community, resign and return all the monies wasted since they took office and job. The three of them, bar none. The sooner, the better.

Think about that for a minute. People in leadership positions must inspire respect and trust. They don't have it. It is like going back to the dark ages of warlords, thieves and paid assassins. Tyranny, despot galore.

The part I do not understand is that the guy (madonis) wrote in his facebook page that he had a good time off with friends and family. If I was a member of his family, I would be utterly embarrassed and would skip thanksgiving and xmas all together so he gets a message, but I guess, their economic dependency is such that they can not take that leap into decency and disgust about the damage they are doing to the community.

This can't go on. Look at the poor having their benefits cut and their kids going hungry and these clowns waste money in stupid resolutions that go no where instead of having a real concern about kids and people hurting and veterans on top of that.

Crazy world. You and I are allowing these thieves of taxpayer's monies and time to get away with it. Nobody seems to give a crap but the few elderly that show up at the meetings to state their contempt. What would it take.....I say....Do we really deserve these people? Are we that inept and dumb? Think about it....

nicepuppy — December 3, 2013 at 7:06 a.m. ( | suggest removal

DeeLittle @ 3:29 am: Sigh. You are using stinkin' thinkin' again. :)

manthou — December 3, 2013 at 7:12 a.m. ( | suggest removal

nicepuppy: That editorial today, indeed, hits the target cleanly. Bullseye, Columbian editorial board!

I am glad it did not create a false equivalency by lumping Stuart in with his cohorts. Stuart did his best to make the arguments against such a frivolous, impotent exercise. He was the only one on the commission who could.

Madore, in Board Time recently, actually suggested that Clark County hand this wordy resolution off to the lawyers who are suing the CRC on behalf of various environmental groups! He really believes it is meaningful and would be valuable evidence in court! He has absolutely no insight on how silly it looks. He just cannot help himself: he has spent a lifetime in a fantasy world bubble, believing we can and should legislate biblical morality and that public shaming is the best way to move those perceived as being the evil, godless opposition.

Madore has failed to forge the powerful political coalitions he needs to prosper and thrive with these antics. In the meantime, critical issues are collecting dust while he pursues his myopic agenda.

manthou — December 3, 2013 at 7:34 a.m. ( | suggest removal

I am still waiting for the detailed data to support the mickey mouse summary of the jobs created by eliminating or reducing the traffic impact fees.

I want to know who is building, what they are building, what percentage of the "jobs created" went to illegal sub contractors and illegal workers.

I can't find it anywhere and the stooge promised that it will be in the "grid"....

Well, let's see the numbers and the names, or we have to go to the field and take pictures of the illegals ourselves?

nicepuppy — December 3, 2013 at 8:20 a.m. ( | suggest removal

*** Bark challenge to the Columbian... ****

Do a survey with all businesses of the County and tell us how many family wages jobs have been added for real, type of jobs, salary, benefits, etc for the last year. Provide an incentive for them to provide that information. That way we have an independent view of what is going on around here instead of the mickey mouse statistics we get from the whoever gives them away.

People just don't know how bad it is and how many kids have to rely pretty much on begging to not go hungry or eat high calories garbage food like the macaroni and cheese the article reported.

Shine the light on Clark County's poverty please. Also, I would like to know who in their right mind would buy a toy or a big screen tv on black friday instead of nutritious food for their family.

nicepuppy — December 3, 2013 at 8:36 a.m. ( | suggest removal

I don't know what we can do about the corrupt county or the federal government. Other than use our votes to try to make a difference. But I do know we here locally can help make a difference for those that are going with out food. We have a walk and knock this weekend and that can be carried out every day of the week by those of us that can still afford to help. Almost every restaurant and bar here in town also have a Christmas giving tree up and running. Just leave a new toy or clothing item and it will go to a good cause. They also are collecting food during the whole month of December. All the centers take donations all year long. Both food and clothing. It might not sound like much to give a few cans of food but if we all do it, it will make a big difference. The V.A. clinic on 4th plain also has a program to help the veterans and their families. Lets do what we can to help not just this time of the year but all year.

timerick — December 3, 2013 at 11:37 a.m. ( | suggest removal

timerick- What great advice & info. I truly appreciate your posts and what you bring to this forum. I've gotten cans out and am working on some other stuff for this. It's a shame when these programs are reduced so much, especially when the well-to-do are getting their perks and pay offs. I can't imagine what it's like to be a disabled Vet and resort to food stamps, and on top of that, to have them reduced. If republican leadership gets their way with the $40 Billion further reductions it will literally starve and put many out on the street. There used to be a time when the right & left worked out differences for the common good.

I thought I'd print this website for further info if anyone needs it. For those of us who haven't lived in these parts for too long, your advice and prompts are invaluable. Again many thanks.

nailingit — December 3, 2013 at 1:08 p.m. ( | suggest removal

///GOP Food Stamp Cuts Would Kick 170,000 Vets Out of the Program///

At least 900,000 veterans rely on SNAP. The House Republican version of the farm bill, the five-year piece of legislation that funds nutrition and agriculture provisions, would slash funding for the food stamps program by nearly $40 billion and boot 2.8 million people off the program next year. That includes 170,000 veterans, who would be removed through a provision in the bill that would eliminate food stamps eligibility for non-elderly jobless adults who can't find work or an opening in a job training program.

Read more @


///House Republicans Pass Deep Cuts in Food Stamps///

WASHINGTON — House Republicans narrowly pushed through a bill on Thursday that slashes billions of dollars from the food stamp program, over the objections of Democrats and a veto threat from President Obama.

The vote set up what promised to be a major clash with the Senate and dashed hopes for passage this year of a new five-year farm bill.

The vote was 217 to 210, largely along party lines.

Read more @


A reminder from last year.

///Senate GOP Obstructionists Throw Veterans Under The Bus-Vote Down Bill To Help Vets In Need Of Jobs///

Commenting on the loss, Senate Veterans’ Affairs Chairwoman Patty Murray (D-Washington) confirmed that the cost of the bill—which was to be spent over a five-year period—had been fully offset, thereby adding nothing to the deficit as a result of the effort.  But even the offset could not overcome the votes of the Republican Senators who would so willingly play politics to the profound detriment of those to whom we owe the most.

Read more @

nailingit — December 3, 2013 at 1:29 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Hey Timerick, I am more of the "Jesus" type than the giver of goods type.

For instance, the mother in the story mentioned macaroni and cheese as a preference because the kids hate green beans.....that pissed me off. These people need to understand what the depression was all about, the European famine and so forth.

I am of the idea of teaching these functionally slow in the mind people of the nutrition you find in legumes and teach them how to cook. They are eating donated garbage they call food. High caloric garbage.

A better idea is to have legume dishes, let say lentils, garbanzo beans, beans. Create a package that you can get at the bulk bin at Winco or others, add the spices and a recipe. Demonstrate to them about the health benefits of eating right instead of eating garbage in the time of need. To educate them and their kids, the family as a whole in cooking their own meals. There a number of meals you can do for almost nothing if you take away from they brain the garbage food they have been eating all their lives.

So, Jesus puppy would be glad to be part of a team of volunteers to instruct and provide nutritious food packages for them to change their lives by feeding the body and the brain, not destroying their and their kid's bodies and brains, eventually ending up sick, with mental deficiencies, diabetes, heart disease, etc.

Distributing or donating garbage food does no good. We need to educate in a hurry. The County could be instrumental in leading such an effort, so could be churches, senior citizens, volunteers of all walks of life, etc.

nicepuppy — December 3, 2013 at 1:51 p.m. ( | suggest removal

APIL with Crain's testimony. Boy Scouts and parents stayed until the end.

Stephanie Rice ‏@col_cityhall
New All Politics is Local - An uncomfortable, and inaccurate, choice of words

langenthal — December 3, 2013 at 2:43 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Puppy I don't think anyone would disagree about eating more healthy foods. The problem I see with bulk type foods is there is no safety guarantee over what is in them. Part of the problem in my eyes is that younger people younger as in under about 50 have had very little training in how to cook from scratch. I am going to really date myself here. Back in the 50's and 60's kids were taught in school how to cook. I believe the class was called home economics. I think if I remember right it was a required class for the girls. My generation I guess saw no need to continue teaching the course. I know my wife back then did not teach my daughter how to cook. And that was in the mid to late 80's. I was fortunate that my family when I was growing up were all good cooks. They were all raised on farms. Very little was store bought. Young people today think that meat comes from the plastic wrap that is around it.

timerick — December 3, 2013 at 3:03 p.m. ( | suggest removal

langenthal — December 3, 2013 at 2:43 p.m.

Kinda like watching a train wreck in slow motion. And her hand...her left HAND!!

(I'll have night sweats for days after watching this)

Cousin It+Marty Feldman+Alan Hale= A Boy Scout's Nightmare

nailingit — December 3, 2013 at 3:26 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Nail there must not be to much under that wild straw like hair. It is hard to believe that she could be so stupid. She should have been escorted out the door.

timerick — December 3, 2013 at 3:38 p.m. ( | suggest removal

langenthal, nailingit, timerick: I am convinced Carolyn Crain was using a term she did not understand. She and her ilk like to repeat phrases and sound bites they hear often. Where she is hearing that one, is hard to tell. She should have prefaced it with "boondoggle" or "tax and spend." Maybe we will get lucky and she will be sooooo embarrassed when she finds out what she really said that she will slink off in her cave for awhile and hide.

The RTC meeting is in 20 minutes, however, so we shall soon see.

manthou — December 3, 2013 at 3:44 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Manthou she knew exactly what she was saying. She has been around Lew and the guy with the pickup sign against Leavitt enough to know what is was. And a person that age can't be that stupid. I would hope. RTC meeting is it on line? If so where.

timerick — December 3, 2013 at 3:55 p.m. ( | suggest removal

nailingit — December 3, 2013 at 1:29 p.m

Months back I read on this very forum how many on here were complaining about the farm subsidies. How they wanted them cut to the bone if not mostly gone. I wondered then how they'd feel when time came if those subsidies were cut, meant cutting the food stamp program.

The very ones that yelled for those subsidies cut are the ones crying now about the cut in food stamp program. There is always a consequence to pay, why always the least of us?
So all you that cried about those subsidies months back, about how the elected needed to cut them off, how are you feeling now that families are going hungry because of your selfishness? Hope you are proud of yourselves, you know, after all you ARE the most compassionate, and tolerant..why you'd even give your last shirt to your fellow man if needed..NOT!

Nails thank you for gathering and sharing for the food bank. My plan , same as every year, I buy the same as I buy for my family. I check fat and sodium content. Buy organic when possible. Too bad we can't share what come from our own gardens that's the most healthy.

ELISI — December 3, 2013 at 4 p.m. ( | suggest removal

In a vote of 6 yes, 3 no, the RTC right off the bat, removed Madore's resolution from the agenda.

Bingo. Bango. Bongo.

They will actually get some meaningful work done tonight?

manthou — December 3, 2013 at 4:07 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Elisi there is no good reason for SNAP to even be included in a farm bill. It was done that way because they thought it would be easier to pass the farm bill. SNAP should have been a stand alone bill. I don't remember a one of us here saying to cut SNAP. Some of us wanted to cure the abuse of the program and still do. Abuse hurts the program for those that need it the most.

timerick — December 3, 2013 at 4:11 p.m. ( | suggest removal

timerick — December 3, 2013 at 4:11 p.m

You may want to read this..

Congress has traditionally authorized SNAP funding as part of its annual passage of the Farm Bill, which contains other provisions like agricultural subsidies. But for the first time in recent history, the House of Representatives voted to pass the Farm Bill without voting on SNAP funding.

It is still in my eyes disgusting that anyone of any party would take food from another mouth for any reason!
Instead of giving money to all these foreign countries, it should be used to feed and house our own needy!

ELISI — December 3, 2013 at 4:41 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Not sure of what you're referring to, but I imagine it was along these lines. Republicans want to cut aid to the poor while growing the 1% bank accounts.

///Stop Lavishing Money on Rich Farmers Who Don’t Need It///

To keep the money flowing to farmers, as well as to food-stamp recipients, the 2008 bill was extended until this September, allowing Congress time to come up with a bill that would cut unnecessary handouts to farmers while preserving safety-net programs. Instead, Congress is poised to make ill-advised cuts and dole out fresh largess to farmers who don’t need it.

That’s shameful, especially because President Barack Obama provided a good starting point in his proposed budget. It called for trimming spending by almost $38 billion during the next 10 years by eliminating the $5 billion in annual direct payments to owners of farmland and reducing subsidies for crop insurance.

Congress should build on this, starting with strict means testing for farm benefits. U.S. farmers as a group, with an average annual household income of more than $89,000, are much better off than most Americans. This year, farm net income will reach $128 billion, the highest in inflation-adjusted terms in 40 years.


///Rich and famous get taxpayers' $9B: report///

Entitled "Subsidies of the Rich and Famous," it says millionaires have received $74 million in unemployment checks in recent years, $316 million in farm subsidies, $9 billion in retirement checks, and taken out $16 million in government-backed education loans for college.

Some big celebrities are among the beneficiaries: taxpayer-funded farm subsidies for NBA star Scottie Pippen and billionaire media titan Ted Turner.

nailingit — December 3, 2013 at 4:42 p.m. ( | suggest removal

nailingit — December 3, 2013 at 4:42 p.m. referring to ELISI — December 3, 2013 at 4 p.m.

nailingit — December 3, 2013 at 4:44 p.m. ( | suggest removal

oh and here is another good one to read...

In recent years, public health and food policy experts have sounded the alarm about how farm bill programs supporting all the wrong crops (think corn and soy) contribute to America’s epidemic of obesity and diet-related diseases. This is certainly true, along with a host of other economic drivers.

But are we focusing too much on the commodity title and not enough on the nutrition title when it comes to how the farm bill truly subsidizes Big Food? After all, even if the commodity title was completely eliminated, most economists believe it would have minimal impact on healthy food consumption.

ELISI — December 3, 2013 at 4:49 p.m. ( | suggest removal

nailingit — December 3, 2013 at 4:44 p.m

It's just down right disgusting in my book, no matter who..

ELISI — December 3, 2013 at 4:52 p.m. ( | suggest removal

"It's just down right disgusting in my book, no matter who.."

ELISI — December 3, 2013 at 4:52 p.m.

Not with me. Why would you want to pad a billionaires pocket while decreasing funding for the poor? Not sure if we're on the same page.

nailingit — December 3, 2013 at 4:56 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Here's little Fact check..

Q: In the farm bill, how much money goes to direct subsidies for farmers, what percentage goes to higher income farmers and how much is allotted for feeding the poor?

A: About $26 billion will be spent on direct payments to farmers over the next five years. We can't give a figure for exactly how much will go to "upper income" farmers, but the income limits are set quite high. The lion's share of the bill's $307 billion cost ($209 billion) will go for nutrition assistance.

ELISI — December 3, 2013 at 4:57 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Stephanie Rice reports, on Twitter, that CC Public Works Director, Pete Capell, is a finalist for the Camas City Administrator job!

We may lose another experienced employee, if he gets the job.

Just the fact that he applied speaks volumes. Anyone taking exit interviews of these folks?
Elisi and nailingit: I want to take the time to read your links and thank you for posting them.

manthou — December 3, 2013 at 4:58 p.m. ( | suggest removal

nailingit — December 3, 2013 at 4:56 p.m

Nail, I was saying it is disgusting to defund to any degree the food program.
Sorry I wasn't clear about that..I'm NOT for taking food away from anyone!

I'd like to see the elected elite and the elite eat/live for one month like so many families on welfare and food stamps have too.

ELISI — December 3, 2013 at 5:01 p.m. ( | suggest removal

I don't know if I am reading Elisi right. But I think she is saying the same thing Nail. Cut the subsidies to the rich and the farmers most of whom are owned by the rich and famous. Also cut the massive amounts of foreign aid and help our own that are struggling to survive. If that is what she is saying than I agree with her.

timerick — December 3, 2013 at 5:05 p.m. ( | suggest removal

manthou — December 3, 2013 at 3:44 p.m.

Gotta agree with timerick on this. She just didn't use a good choice of words given the setting. (I'm trying to be careful with my choice of words, in case the Crain has the power to swoop in and enact hexes or curses!) The folks she internetingly hangs with, as well as her persona, tells me she's no stranger to this type of verbiage and it's meaning.

manthou — December 3, 2013 at 4:07 p.m.

Just tuned in. Man, that must've burnt his toast!

nailingit — December 3, 2013 at 5:07 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Here is another good read...

September 19, 2013
Understanding the SNAP cuts as a part of broader food and agriculture policy

This evening’s House vote on the food assistance program SNAP is significant not only in the size of the cuts proposed but also by separating food assistance policy from agricultural subsidy policy. That pairing, which dates back to the Great Depression, has been key to the success of both policy programs. To understand the significance of the proposed cuts to SNAP, we need to understand it in a larger context.

ELISI — December 3, 2013 at 5:09 p.m. ( | suggest removal

timerick-ELISI---I think I get it now. It's sad what our leaders priorities are.

nailingit — December 3, 2013 at 5:10 p.m. ( | suggest removal

timerick — December 3, 2013 at 5:05 p.m

EXACTLY what I was trying to say...but about the farmers? Very few are of the "upper income". Most farmers still need that insurance for the crops. If we do away with all subsidies, who will grow our food supply? Are you willing to eat foods from other countries that have been grown without the watchful eye of the FDA and all our laws regarding food safety?

ELISI — December 3, 2013 at 5:14 p.m. ( | suggest removal

RTC nominations for officers.

Chair: Burkman or Mielke (nominated by Madore after Ganley nominated Burkman).

10 votes for Burkman. Burkman wins.

Historically, it has always been the Vice-Chair moving up. Madore must not have gotten the memo.

Vice Chair: Steve Stuart nominated. Madore nominates Mielke again. Second for Mielke comes very slowly.

Stuart wins.

Treasurer/Secretary: Always executive director.

manthou — December 3, 2013 at 5:17 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Elisi I wouldn't throw the independent farmers into the mix of cutting subsidies. But just how many independents are there? Most of our food comes big AG. And depending on the time of year most comes from other countries. Unless you step up and buy local. But local is not always available.The FDA still controls the quality of food coming from other countries. How good of a job they do would be a good question. But as I said SNAP should not even be any kind bill other than is own. This piggy back crap needs to stop. Just because it has been done forever does not make it the right thing to do.

timerick — December 3, 2013 at 5:41 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Intially I think the Farm Bill, the one in 1933 were to help FARMERS weather the depression... like Grandpa and Grandma farmers. Later, in the 1970's other parts were added - think of the movie 'Country' w/ Jessica Lange. For decades farmers have been squeezed off their lands and unable to compete with corporate farms in production, mass planting and harvesting (plus the expense of all the added equipment and manpower) and continuing increased property values and tax. Farm subsidies were to aid these SMALL farms where land had been in the family for generations.

When the SNAP was included, I don't know. SNAP is about food, and food comes from farms but that's about the only connection I can see. SNAP is not about farms, taxes, weather impacts & relief, farming techniques, chemicals, or anything else pertaining to farming. It's about food for those who may otherwise be hungry.

jacjak — December 3, 2013 at 5:43 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Stubborn fellow this Madonis guy, isn't he? LOL

Mielke? Give me a break. You would have to give him some Meth to keep him awake...hahahahah

This Madonis guy just doesn't get it. He has no respect and he lost the gram of effectiveness he thought he had.

He lives in his own bubble. On another subject, I am glad that Burkman got elected because he is at least sharper than the one that is leaving or so it seems.

Concerning that Dean guy that want to assist the new guy using a middle man consulting company to provide "his" services so we get billed x 2, I find it despicable! No matter how good he is at what he does. Dude, it is not all about money, you quit, help the new guy at no charge. Don't be a scum! Geez!

nicepuppy — December 3, 2013 at 5:47 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Congratulations to Stuart for being elected as the vice president. Anybody but Mielke! Geez! Who in their right mind but mental escapee Madonis can suggest such a numb brain for that position....

nicepuppy — December 3, 2013 at 5:50 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Ann Rivers working on an "alternative" project for the CRC that she wants to run by Vancouver City Council? Huh?

roger: Any ideas of what she thinks she has the power to do?

manthou — December 3, 2013 at 5:51 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Here is another good read...(not)

September 19, 2013
Understanding the SNAP cuts as a part of broader food and agriculture policy

This evening’s House vote on the food assistance program SNAP is significant not only in the size of the cuts proposed but also by separating food assistance policy from agricultural subsidy policy. That pairing, which dates back to the Great Depression, has been key to the success of both policy programs. To understand the significance of the proposed cuts to SNAP, we need to understand it in a larger context.

I guess the "conservatives", you know, the ones that will FULLY subsidize Con-Agra, Tyson, Dole, under the same bill/budget, etc.., and are perfectly content with, you know,
or should, moving money upwards. Where is their indignation with socialism? Seems they have no problem taking their chit out on the poor-hell, the poor deserves it! They ignore the fact most folks on SNAP are working poor, (a class WALLY-WORLD ET ALL PERPETUATES AND CREATES) and the rest are their kids, the elderly, and the disabled. Time for a reality check. The welfare "queen" is a conservative myth-doesn't exist. Most Food stamp recipients work. The remaining majority are their kids .

Perhaps it's time these idiots asked the real questions-why can't the US compete in areas such as education, infra-structure, health care? Simple answer-no profit. And why are we generating so many poor folks that need food stamps? Our eligibility standards too high? Isn't that like saying 'our poor are richer than yours?'

mrd — December 3, 2013 at 6:01 p.m. ( | suggest removal

manthou — December 3, 2013 at 5:51 p.m.,

Well, for starters she's on the Senate Ways and Means committee and the Rules committee, and just might have a bit to say about the State's budget. And you might forget the infamous spat, where Colonel Sanders got in her face and almost got his butt kicked? A lot of that had to do with that, though Benton is the Vice Chair of Transportation, Tom and King were having her get in the news as the local expert to counter Jim Moeller.

roger — December 3, 2013 at 6:16 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Looking forward to the BOCCCCC cccommentary tonight. Lotsa folks. Crap! What's happening to me?

Just when I thought I was out, they pull me back in.

nailingit — December 3, 2013 at 6:17 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Ed Barnes bringing up Benton attending ALEC conference instead of doing his job. Well done!

(someone please explain ALEC to Meilke)

nailingit — December 3, 2013 at 6:22 p.m. ( | suggest removal

roger: I eagerly await Senator Rivers' alternative ideas. No sarcasm. She makes a much better spokesperson than Benton, for sure, and I estimate her IQ to be at least a standard deviation above his. :) I did not know what the infamous fight was about, but sounds like he was a bit jealous of her elevated status per Tom and King.

nailingit: LOL. Local politics is very addicting, especially with this current cast of characters. Mielke defending Benton's trip for an ALEC get together: priceless. Given how Madore's proposals were DOA at the RTC today, can you see the value in increasing our commissioner by at least two? No guarantee where their vote would go, but at least we have more ideas and voices to add to the mix.

manthou — December 3, 2013 at 6:34 p.m. ( | suggest removal

manthou --- I asked Rice if Capell would be taking salary cut. She replied: Off the top of my head I would say yes. We have salaries of Pete and former Camas admin on our website. Somewhere.

langenthal — December 3, 2013 at 6:45 p.m. ( | suggest removal

langenthal: Bronson Potter took a $20,000 a year cut to go work for the city, I think. It must be bad at CC for high level administrative staff to be willing to work for gumbo (thanks, Jimmy Buffet) to get out. What a statement.

manthou — December 3, 2013 at 6:49 p.m. ( | suggest removal

manthou- "Given how Madore's proposals were DOA at the RTC today, can you see the value in increasing our commissioner by at least two?"

Definitely! I'd hate to see two more M&M;'s on the commission, but I think that scenario is highly improbable, given the gene pool for 'stupid' has been depleted by these two.

Unfavorable public commentary is so strong against the M&M;'s, I doubt many would want the job unless they were in the opposition.

Time for some Freeholders to draft this! (if I'm correctly understanding what freeholders do)

nailingit — December 3, 2013 at 6:58 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Kirsten Andersen ‏@norskiewa 19m
Post Record says city admin salary is $113,500 to $135,600.
Stephanie Rice ‏@col_cityhall 17m
if I recall correctly from my salary story, Pete makes about $140k

Kirsten Andersen ‏@norskiewa 10m
Who wouldn't take a pay cut to be city admin at Lake Wobegon?

langenthal — December 3, 2013 at 7:13 p.m. ( | suggest removal

langenthal: I love Kirsten Andersen's comment: Lake Wobegon. Sister city to Lake (Osw)Ego in Clackamas Co, OR. :)

manthou — December 3, 2013 at 7:16 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Worked all day so late to the party here. Thanks all for keeping us posted regarding today's meetings.
And I for one had to google what the Crane had to say. Holy cow. Wonder who clued the girl in.

Nails, Elisi, Timerick. SNAP needs to be separated from the farm bill. I do not mind helping the little farmer, but I am sick and tired of giving all this money to big Agra. Why are we subsidizing the junk Monsanto grows? And our FDA lets slide? We are still allowed to eat crap that has been banned by so many other countries. And here, the stuff is allowed into the food chain. What does that make us?

luvithere — December 3, 2013 at 7:22 p.m. ( | suggest removal

manthou --- Previous conversation:

Stephanie Rice ‏@col_cityhall 3h
@norskiewa Isn't Camas our Lake Wobegon?

Kirsten Andersen ‏@norskiewa 3h
@col_cityhall OMG, yes. Am howling. Thank you. Camas probably has more air fresheners, though.

Stephanie Rice ‏@col_cityhall 3h
Well, Clark County Public Works Director Pete Capell a finalist for Camas city administrator. Will Pete be latest to fly the #clarkwa coop?

Kirsten Andersen ‏@norskiewa 3h
@col_cityhall Hmm. Are things less crazy in Camas? #seriousquestion #Ihavenoidea #HazelDellian

Stephanie Rice ‏@col_cityhall 3h
@norskiewa Isn't Camas our Lake Wobegon?

Kirsten Andersen ‏@norskiewa 3h
@col_cityhall OMG, howling. Thank you. #moreairfreshenersthough

langenthal — December 3, 2013 at 7:24 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Stuart schooling Madore about the benefits and limitations of sales tax v property tax revenue v paying for services v Madore not having a friggin' clue. Understanding there's a difference between public and private sector but...wondering how Madore has turned a profit in business. He must delegate well. Robots must have low overhead. Guess I'm getting out of my nonsensical purview. Will try to get back on track. Carry on self.

nailingit — December 3, 2013 at 8:15 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Meilke, (speaking of veterans) just said Gaddafi in Afghanistan is having a problem with our troops being there. No one corrected him.

Does this mean Gaddafi is alive and Karzai is now in Libya??

Meilke just made international news with this revelation....

My God-why am I still watching this? HELP!

nailingit — December 3, 2013 at 8:26 p.m. ( | suggest removal

I turned it off after Stuart agreed to vote with a no increase in roads tax after lecturing on that we've agreed to 1% per year and haven't taken it in 5 years. I could have sworn we were crying about lack of funding for roads a short time back.

roger — December 3, 2013 at 8:31 p.m. ( | suggest removal

roger- I thought his excuse for doing so was pretty lame. (supposedly emphasizing with homeowners) It smacked pretty political to me.

nailingit — December 3, 2013 at 8:39 p.m. ( | suggest removal

"emphasizing"-should be empathizing-must be getting late-it's the weather-too much root beer float-no football-too much BOCCC...definitely!

nailingit — December 3, 2013 at 8:45 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Stuart was a disappointment at tonight's CC budget hearing when he joined Mielke and refused to support requests for a very small increase in funding for Veterans Assistance and Mental Health. Madore, to his credit, tried to allocate more money.

JohnK — December 3, 2013 at 8:51 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Well, I was wondering who Ed Barnes is, and found out tonight. On seeing him, I realized I've heard him speak before the various groups before, but his name didn't mean anything then.

Madore is a complete idiot. The only appropriate response to an old curmudgeon like Barnes is a respectful "Yes Sir" and then move on, because that's the only way you'll shut them up. Now that the old boy's been validated as a local folk hero, he's going to be chastising the boys every chance he gets. (But I gather why he's gained his following. Oh well - his 15 minutes will be up soon enough.)

roger — December 3, 2013 at 9 p.m. ( | suggest removal

luvithere: I am quite impressed that you had to look the term up. It must be the German/English language thing, eh? :) However, I must admit that I first learned of it from watching German playwright Frank Wedekind's "Springs Awakening" in a college theatrical production.

BTW, I noticed that Carolyn was a no show tonight at both the CRC and RTC. Very rare for her to be absent, given the budget discussions.

manthou — December 3, 2013 at 9:02 p.m. ( | suggest removal

I gathered from the testimony from the first guy speaking for the veteran's funding that 1) he didn't know there was some sort of reserve already in place; 2) that they weren't spending everything currently allocated; and 3) that they didn't know on what date the County checked their funds balance to determine the future funding requirement under state law. I'm also curious about the other guy, who predicted we were getting ready to be swamped with a huge influx of Vets needing help - I'd have wanted to know what he was basing that estimate on. Not to take away from the good those guys do, but they need someone who understands the funding process.

roger — December 3, 2013 at 9:09 p.m. ( | suggest removal

This is going to sound a little weird but...

I just spoke to my daughter via phone, and she and friend were out jogging by Jefferson Middle School and spotted several, what appeared to be, UFO's. She's a reasonable kid not given to imagination, isn't a druggie and has a good head on her shoulders. She took a couple of photo's and am looking forward to seeing them.

Possibly drones or something else, but who knows? She called it in to somebody. Will be interesting to hear if there are any other sightings in area.

This old guy knows they're out there. I'm always skeptical though.

Life can be a lot of things, but boring is not one of them.

nailingit — December 3, 2013 at 10:02 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Nails, we know they are out there. some decided to join us and landed right here in CC, mangling our language on a regular basis.

Manthou, yep, I never heard that term before. I am so pure of heart, etc. then I started thinking about what it means and decided that men are truly, well.....

Present company excluded as always.

luvithere — December 3, 2013 at 10:46 p.m. ( | suggest removal

luvithere — December 3, 2013 at 10:46 p.m.

Just got back from Jefferson Middle and watched the skies for awhile with daughter. Didn't see any language manglers though. :) Photo is interesting, as well as her experience. Not ready to embrace this as an other worldly experience, but not discounting it either.

Not to beat this subject for too long...

"then I started thinking about what it means and decided that men are truly, well....."

Why do men always get put in a negative light? C jerks can be gender neutral, just sayin'.

And you're European??

nailingit — December 4, 2013 at 12:04 a.m. ( | suggest removal

luvithere — December 3, 2013 at 10:46 p.m. -- " are truly, well.....Present company excluded as always."

Are you certain we're deserving of that exception? I for one have no desire to be placed on a pedestal and elevated to the status of a "good" man, especially when wallowing in the muck can be such fun.

"As it will be in the future, it was at the birth of Man
There are only four things certain since Social Progress began.
That the Dog returns to his Vomit and the Sow returns to her Mire,
And the burnt Fool's bandaged finger goes wabbling back to the Fire;"
(Kipling, The Gods of the Copybook Headings.)

roger — December 4, 2013 at 5:40 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Just finished listening to Carolyn Crain's interesting talk. At first to me, it appeared she used a certain expletive out of context, but at a second glance...I think she used it as a "shock element" to those she directed her comments and she obviously accomplished that.

Regarding the context of what she you people who have such disdain for the woman really listen to what she has to say or is your dislike for the woman so blinding, that you'd rather nitpick her discussion points in order to diminish the importance of her message regarding the tax increase and what it is doing to those on a fixed income???

DO YOU REALIZE...that the average SSI check to a 65 year old (as of June 2013, Social Security Administration website) is only $1,269.00 per month or $15,228.00 per year. For survivors of SSI recipients, that is $1,221.00 PER MONTH or $14,652.00 per year.

DO YOU REALIZE...the poverty level for a single person household is $11,490.00 per year; for a household of 2, it is $15,510.00 per year.

DO YOU REALIZE...12.4% of the city of Vancouver (20,000+) are over 65 and that 15.5% (almost 26,600) of the city's residents live below the poverty level?


goldenoldie — December 4, 2013 at 6:10 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Clark County Sheriff's Dept has started developing a plan to deal with "aggressive" panhandling by restricting where they can ply their trade. Read the article posted today for more detail.

I don't like this one bit. Whether these people standing on the freeway exits are distasteful to our sensibilities is irrelevant - The idea that a police force is going to be able to define acceptable behavior is one of the most abhorrent things that can happen in a free society.

roger — December 4, 2013 at 6:42 a.m. ( | suggest removal

goldie: Carolyn puts herself in the spotlight weekly at many meetings. Therefore, she exposes herself to critique from the public with the content of her statements. I don't feel sorry for her. She is free to exercise her first amendment rights and free to plan her testimony to avoid such embarrassing errors.

I think Jeanne Harris and others addressed Carolyn's points you re-state well: the city has a property tax reduction for those seniors who are on a fixed, low income. And most people who make the money you mention don't own homes usually and don't pay property tax. The slight increase Vancouver is asking is reasonable and will actually help better serve our low income vulnerable.

manthou — December 4, 2013 at 6:44 a.m. ( | suggest removal

roger @ 6:42 am: I am cheering your statement loudly right now.

That's how erosion of liberty starts: the police and justice system, working together, target the groups that society tends to shun. Once those liberties for targeted groups are reduced, it is easier, by law, to extend those liberty violations to others.

manthou — December 4, 2013 at 6:53 a.m. ( | suggest removal

nailingit: I am always open to the idea that there is other life "out there" so keep us informed on the apparent UFP sighting.

There was one recently here that turned out to be a massive release of candle balloons by some local revelers.

manthou — December 4, 2013 at 7:01 a.m. ( | suggest removal

UFO, I meant. Sheesh.

manthou — December 4, 2013 at 7:02 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Roger, Nails.
The definition I stumbled upon made it abundantly clear that anatomically speaking, this is an action not doable by women.
Yuk, enough. Too early for this.

Either way, totally inappropriate in a public meeting. But funny to discuss.
Manthou, all I want from the aliens is to get beamed up.

luvithere — December 4, 2013 at 7:15 a.m. ( | suggest removal

*** From Bark of the day to piss on your leg of the day...LOL ***

About the Carolyn Crain tongue slip. I read this variation of the definition and thought that maybe she was using the expression in this way...

"3.) When a bunch of blowhards - usually politicians - get together for a debate but usually end up agreeing with each other's viewpoints to the point of redundancy, stroking each other's egos as if they were extensions of their genitals (ergo, the mastubatory insinuation). Basically, it's what happens when the choir preaches to itself."

If that is the case, the gutter minds lost!

About Carolyn Crain, I see her point. Seniors can not afford more taxes when in fix income but seniors at some point have to throw the towel and head up to the nursing home. If you can't afford it, rent a place, go to a higher density area, etc. I know they like their independence and that has a cost. If that cost is not affordable anymore, they have to face reality.

Carolyn Crain either has a lot of money or she is collecting money from somewhere. I don't understand people having so much time not doing productive stuff for themselves or someone else. Get a hobbie lady, help others. Why do you make your life pester these meetings time and time again. It is too much lady. If you had a man in your life, you certainly wouldn't be this way. That could be the problem. She does not have a life or she gets paid to be an a$$.

About the panhandlers. I see the point of getting rid off the menace. This is what we have created people with the me, me and more me society. That is why Pope Francis is trying to reverse the monster we live in.

So I say....instead of an ordinance, why are we not living like Jesus and go help these people on the street. Hang around with them like Jesus supposedly did? What kind of mickey mouse religion do you belong to that can face the rubber meeting the road?

A complex issue because of alcoholism and mental illness but that is what happens when you cut services. People end up on the streets. Would the ban on panhandling work? For one they were saying that crime will increase. Hey, Lucas will get more money so we can repress and intimidate some more.

That is not a solution in my opinion. It has to be more comprehensive.

About Madonis an his facebook page announcing success on his reduced or elimination fees. This guy is mentally retarded. If you don't put real detail data to back up your "circle jerk" (there, I said it), nobody believes you. Get it?

nicepuppy — December 4, 2013 at 7:17 a.m. ( | suggest removal

manthou — December 4, 2013 at 6:44 a.m.

Manthou, I don't think you understand the tax reduction you speak of. If the average SSI check is $1,269 per month...the average PUD bill this time of year is roughly $200 per month (IF the person was unable to acquire assistance), the average sewer/water bill is $25-50 per month, the average phone bill is $54 per month, garbage starts at $9.73 per month, groceries are about $350 for the month, transportation needs including gas about $80 per month/C-Tran for Zone C is $60, car insurance about $60-85 per month, medical co-pays and prescription costs for an average senior can be through the roof..., and other expenses including car repair, Medicare Supplemental Insurance as well as others I haven't mentioned...

So where do you think the tax money will come from, manthou? Most likely, they are losing their homes they bought years ago, hoping to stay in one place. What savings they have are dwindling IF they aren't gone already.

The constant hits of tax increases here, there and everywhere is putting the seniors in a predicament NOBODY should ever be forced into.

Carolyn was spot on.

goldenoldie — December 4, 2013 at 7:28 a.m. ( | suggest removal

And most people who make the money you mention don't own homes usually and don't pay property tax. The slight increase Vancouver is asking is reasonable and will actually help better serve our low income vulnerable.

manthou — December 4, 2013 at 6:44 a.m

Wait a minute here.. "you mention don't own homes usually and don't pay property tax."

Ahh yes they do "pay property tax" in their rent, if living in a nursing home, an assisted living, in adult care , or senior living facilities. It is figured IN the price/rent per month.

and..if you think that the "slight increase" will actually help serve the low income better, I have an island in New Mexico for sale.

When us east county residences was forced into the city via the annexation, we were promised, better service etc etc..haven't seen any of.
Parks now go without grooming, weeds knee high, trash over flowing cans, tree branches every time the wind blows. Trash ends up blowing into our yards and the streets, kids carry the tree branches out of the parks into the streets and ends up in our yards etc.
To get a cop to show up, well lets just it takes something really bad to happen. We were told by the city "we HAVE to have waste picked up by WC if we use WC or not we still have to pay for it" since when was having a monopoly on trash service legal?
When will the streets in our city get fixed? There is a pot hole people hit every time you come off I 205 south onto Mill Plain in the inside lane. It's a wonder someone hasn't hit it and cause them to lose control and hit another driver. Been that way for over a yr. Yet they " resurfaced" 192nd and parts of Mill Plain.

ELISI — December 4, 2013 at 7:33 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Throwing water at Madonis reducing fees success circle jerking....

Dude, a fancy graph means nothing. That is for stupid people to swallow.

- Identify all the permits issued that took advantage of this windfall.
- Identify all companies that applied for these permits.
- Identify who are their sub-contractors.
- Identify how many jobs, salary levels, worker legal status and duration of employment.
- Identify the areas of the County where this new development is going on.
- Identify the type of project and state occupancy of square footage built.
- Identify the dollar amount of the project and the projected benefit to the community.
- Identify what the County got back in return. What was the benefit.

That is just the beginning. This guy think that we are utterly stupid. If you want to circle jerk your own self, have some gonads left to tell the whole story. That is how is done, not these mickey mouse graphs designed to dumb up even more the voters.

Lastly, about voting. I am of the idea that voting ought to be mandatory for all people that not only read and write but can also comprehend.

A recent trip to walmart, made me truly understand that something went wrong in the gene pool. I thought it was just education that was missing, but has also to do with a structured life where will power and discipline ought to play an important part.

nicepuppy — December 4, 2013 at 7:33 a.m. ( | suggest removal

nicepuppy: You make some good points this morning on your first bark of the day. :)

Maybe Carolyn meant to reference the alternative meaning you mention. However, she could have made the same point with a different phrase, one that was less offensive and salacious. Not a wise choice for a public meeting, but certainly one that will be remembered. Too bad we won't remember what she really wanted to say.

I was concerned about some of the ideas expressed by law enforcement in Patty Hastings' story about the panhandling ordinance today, too. This is a way to "force" the mentally ill and substance abusers into treatment? Good luck with that.

manthou — December 4, 2013 at 7:38 a.m. ( | suggest removal

"""About Carolyn Crain, I see her point. Seniors can not afford more taxes when in fix income but seniors at some point have to throw the towel and head up to the nursing home. If you can't afford it, rent a place, go to a higher density area, etc. I know they like their independence and that has a cost. If that cost is not affordable anymore, they have to face reality."""

nicepuppy — December 4, 2013 at 7:17 a.m.

The ABSOLUTE Statement of an Idiot.

goldenoldie — December 4, 2013 at 7:42 a.m. ( | suggest removal

""The average cost for a private one-bedroom apartment in an assisted living residence is $3,022 per month, according to research compiled by several nonprofit senior living organizations, including the Assisted Living Federation of America (2009 Overview of Assisted Living).""

Average cost of moving company to move your personal property from a 3-bedroom residence to another location within the city: $3,233.00.

So what if the house doesn't sell? Who will manage the rental? What does it cost to have someone do the repairs and upgrades in order to bring the house to state standards?

And where will this money come from in regards to the senior on a fixed income, pups?

goldenoldie — December 4, 2013 at 7:56 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Ever notice on a package or can of food from China doesn't say "Grown in China." OH no. It says "MADE in China." Ever wonder what process it went through??? Is it real food or is it lab created???

goldenoldie — December 4, 2013 at 8:15 a.m. ( | suggest removal

goldenoldie: You better get used to manufactured food as it's just around the corner and attracting some major investors. Might even be some (?) benefits.

JohnK — December 4, 2013 at 8:35 a.m. ( | suggest removal

GD Get a grip please....

GD Euthanasia is an option too ya know....LOL

What is it in living when you are old, decrepit, taking tons of meds, have no mobility, wearing diapers and pooping on your underwear? What kind of life is that? Wouldn't it be better to turn off the lights instead of enduring the cost of living? I say give me a good morphine shot and sainoara baby... ;)

nicepuppy — December 4, 2013 at 8:40 a.m. ( | suggest removal

JohnK, the only "manufactured food" I have is processed in my kitchen, except for the organic flour and sugar. That was produced elsewhere...8))

I noticed the article you mentioned is from Mother Jones...the rumor is out that they pay their interns equivalent to $6 an hour??? Not a living wage, eh???

goldenoldie — December 4, 2013 at 8:43 a.m. ( | suggest removal

goldie @ 8:15 am: Something we can agree upon: Chinese products. I just spent nearly an hour online trying to find an organic cotton nightgown not imported from China. Even Hanna Andersson has started to manufacture its clothing there.

A food distributor executive told me once that his company stopped selling a Chinese "moon pie" confection when they discovered that the cookie contained cardboard! I guess you can cover anything in chocolate and sell it to sweet-toothed consumers. :)

From dog food to clothing to toys: I try to stay away from Made in China and will pay the extra money to do so.

manthou — December 4, 2013 at 8:47 a.m. ( | suggest removal

nicepuppy — December 4, 2013 at 8:40 a.m.

Pups...I'm more than well aware of the tax relief offered here in the county. I've helped numerous older people as well as helped other younger folks find LEGAL ways to save money without breaking the bank.

My point to manthou is clear and I'll make that absolutely clear to you. Tax relief doesn't mean you get out of paying taxes, except in the most extreme cases. You still have property taxes to pay on your home IF you qualify. It is based on the amount you pay per year. The problem here is the inability for you to comprehend that for seniors on a fixed income which the amount I'd mentioned before...won't HAVE the extra cash to pay their property taxes, forcing them out of their number one financial investment...their home. Trying to stay out of debt is difficult and trying to sell your home in Clark County is even more. Now don't try to tell me "they HAD better options" and all that blah, blah, blah. What someone COULD HAVE DONE when they were younger is one thing. What they're stuck with is a nightmare NOBODY saw coming.

And Pups...your comment @8:40 is even more ignorant than the previous one I'd highlighted. What you speak of does not qualify as assisted care. That is EXTENDED care, bubs...and THATS a lot more expensive.

Please...when you make your unconscionable least try not to appear to be so ignorant.

goldenoldie — December 4, 2013 at 8:53 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Manthou, same here although it is becoming more and more difficult to find something not coming from China. Of course, one place i also stay away from is Walmart. Junk, from China, and the treatment of employees and vendors. if we don't stand up for what we believe in, we will never affect a change.

I spent lots of money on Turkey day to ensure the food was as organic as possible. The things we allow in our food makes me sick, literally.

luvithere — December 4, 2013 at 8:54 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Obama is giving a speech on income disparity/income inequality. Happy to hear him take this on, in what is a most excellent speech. On C-SPAN & MSNBC.

This new "policy" County po po's are taking on stinks to high hell. It will flush out the abusers with badges for sure. The trouble is the abusers will most likely get rewarded. I wonder if our evangelist-in-chief is behind this.

nailingit — December 4, 2013 at 8:58 a.m. ( | suggest removal

manthou — December 4, 2013 at 8:47 a.m.

They're out there, manthou. You just have to look for them. Here's one website you might check out -

goldenoldie — December 4, 2013 at 8:59 a.m. ( | suggest removal

luvithere — December 4, 2013 at 8:54 a.m.

You and I have a similar issue to processed foods, luvit...and we're not alone.

goldenoldie — December 4, 2013 at 9:01 a.m. ( | suggest removal


I am a proud ignorant nobody! I have never denied that! :)

nicepuppy — December 4, 2013 at 9:12 a.m. ( | suggest removal

goldenoldie — December 4, 2013 at 8:43 a.m. I'm not sure what Mother Jones pays its interns has to do with the probability of manufactured food in China, but given the realities of World population growth, the new science may play a role similar to that played by the Green Revolution fifty years ago in saving millions from starvation.

I avoid processed food, don't eat much meat, eggs, cook from scratch, can't imagine eating food made in China, etc., but I also understand how fortunate I am to be able to do so, and how important it is to support affordable alternatives for those less fortunate or with fewer choices.

JohnK — December 4, 2013 at 9:45 a.m. ( | suggest removal

nailingit — December 4, 2013 at 12:04 a.m.

Ok, just catching up, but Laughed Out Loud on this! Worth typing it out...

jacjak — December 4, 2013 at 9:57 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Just finished listening to Carolyn Crain's interesting talk. At first to me, it appeared she used a certain expletive out of context, but at a second glance...I think she used it as a "shock element" to those she directed her comments and she obviously accomplished that.

goldenoldie — December 4, 2013 at 6:10 a.m.

When someone has something to express in a public forum, especially if their desire is to persuade towards a alternate viewpoint, it's okay to tempt, to cajole, to be redundant, to expound, or even to steamroll. It's not okay to condesend or patronize. To use inappropriate or impolite language intentionally is not shocking, it is merely disrespectful and condesending, imo. Hopefully, the lady just misspoke.

jacjak — December 4, 2013 at 10:30 a.m. ( | suggest removal

jacjak — December 4, 2013 at 9:57 a.m.

If I'm understanding your comment correctly...

With the advent of marketed erectile dysfunction meds available, I felt using the term 'beating a dead horse' wasn't applicable. :))


///Full transcript: President Obama’s December 4 remarks on the economy///

-Excerpt from today's speech-

[So let me end by addressing the elephant in the room here, which is the seeming inability to get anything done in Washington these days. I realize we are not going to resolve all of our political debates over the best ways to reduce inequality and increase upward mobility this year or next year or in the next five years.

But it is important that we have a serious debate about these issues, for the longer that current trends are allowed to continue, the more it will feed the cynicism and fear that many Americans are feeling right now that they’ll never be able to repay the debt they took on to go to college, they’ll never be able to save enough to retire, they’ll never see their own children land a good job that supports a family.

And that’s why, even as I will keep on offering my own ideas for expanding opportunity, I’ll also keep challenging and welcoming those who oppose my ideas to offer their own. If Republicans have concrete plans that will actually reduce inequality, build the middle class, provide moral ladders of opportunity to the poor, let’s hear them. I want to know what they are. If you don’t think we should raise the minimum wage, let’s hear your idea to increase people’s earnings. If you don’t think every child should have access to preschool, tell us what you’d do differently to give them a better shot.

If you still don’t like “Obamacare” -- and I know you don’t -- (laughter) -- even though it’s built on market-based ideas of choice and competition and the private sector, then you should explain how exactly you’d cut costs and cover more people and make insurance more secure. You owe it to the American people to tell us what you are for, not just what you’re against. (Applause.) That way, we can have a vigorous and meaningful debate. That’s what the American people deserve. That’s what the times demand. It’s not enough anymore to just say we should get our government out of the way and let the unfettered market take care of it, for our experience tells is that’s just not true. (Applause.)]

nailingit — December 4, 2013 at 10:39 a.m. ( | suggest removal

manthou — December 4, 2013 at 7:01 a.m.

I haven't read of any other sightings in the area last night, but am keeping my eyes and ears open. One thing I did experience during my late night observation venture, is that it's getting awful damn cold outside!!

nailingit — December 4, 2013 at 10:50 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Nailingit: Just think of how much more could be accomplished if, instead of challenging Republicans to think positive and work productively, he'd offered a multi-page 'Integrity' resolution complete with references to his previous statements and positions.

JohnK — December 4, 2013 at 10:54 a.m. ( | suggest removal

JohnK at 10:54 a.m

LOL. Well referenced!
And don't forget to include that pearly smile and videos of self.

luvithere — December 4, 2013 at 11:05 a.m. ( | suggest removal

JohnK — December 4, 2013 at 10:54 a.m.

LOL. Maybe we could put commish Madore on this project, use Crain's verbiage skills to draft it, and charge Meilke with the editing.

Have Palin read it on Fox and state it was approved by Obama, and a good % of voters would believe it.

Maybe then, he could get some mental health reform passed.

nailingit — December 4, 2013 at 11:39 a.m. ( | suggest removal


Good m orning hope all had an excellent Thanksgiving. The best part of ours was to have all our kids and there friends over...
I have not had a chance but hope to later listen to Obamas speach on income redistribution. My first thoughts are that those of us that have worked hard do not like the government taking more of our money. For those in the 1% I can't speak for them only for us small business owners and hard working families. I've already mentioned in agnausiam about how Obamacare will affect my immeadiate and extended family adversly not to mention our small business. This presidemnt has made it his hallmark to extract as much money from the middle calss and above to increase and expand more liberal agendas. Who will pay for these. The middle class hard working and those earning above. I will withold any further comments until I hear his speach. Doesn't this president give a speach everyday.... He gave one just yesterday saying the Healthcare website has had over 300K "Visitors" to it since last week and there now able to have 50K visitors at once.. . For the record thats almost as many who have visted the "GEICO" website in the same period. That doesn't mean people are buying what he is selling. Just a little unknown factoid... I think GEICO close ratio is a little better than his.. for the record.

vanwadreamer — December 4, 2013 at noon ( | suggest removal

vanwa- Happy to hear you had a great Thanksgiving.

Obama's speech takes a short time to read. Not a long one, and entire transcript is @ nailingit — December 4, 2013 at 10:39 a.m

I look forward to the time when republicans can offer some solutions to important issues rather than just criticism. Boehner at a press conference yesterday, was asked if republican leadership would have an alternative plan in 2014 for a viable replacement for the ACA. All he did was laugh.

Would love to hear some solutions to our nations problems from the right. Republicans seem to be content on damning everything the Dems do, rather than offer viable answers. You can only say no for just so long.

As far as speeches go, he should give more. It's obvious his message isn't getting through to many.

nailingit — December 4, 2013 at 1:01 p.m. ( | suggest removal

I noticed the article you mentioned is from Mother Jones...the rumor is out that they pay their interns equivalent to $6 an hour??? Not a living wage, eh???

goldenoldie — December 4, 2013 at 8:43 a.m.

When I was an intern at KISN radio, we got paid NOTHING! NADA! ZIP! ZILCH!

Your pay was your education. That's what interns get. Love it or leave it.

hawkeye — December 4, 2013 at 2:15 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Just putting something out here for your thoughts. The State wants a gas tax of around 11 cents a gallon and the feds want 15 cents a gallon. Isn't time we came up with a different way of collecting tax for our roads? A gas tax is only going to be paid by those that have gas powered cars. Also it is going to put a hardship on most business that require service trucks, delivery trucks that can't go to electric power. Maybe a mileage tax of some sort that would be collected at renewal time. I don't know but I do think we need something different.

timerick — December 4, 2013 at 2:20 p.m. ( | suggest removal

timerick: I have friends in VA and they tell me that this is what they are doing to fund transportation in their state:

Virginia passed a new law that eliminated its 17.5-cent-a-gallon state gasoline tax and replaced it with a 3.5 percent wholesale tax, paid by gas stations. The state also increased vehicle registration fees and imposed a special registration fee for hybrid vehicles. The new law also raised its state sales tax, to 5.3 cents from 5 cents.

I like the mileage tax idea a lot. It rewards people who use public transportation or who don't drive often or far.

I am very disappointed that WA state could not come up with something more creative to spread the pain around.

manthou — December 4, 2013 at 2:44 p.m. ( | suggest removal

If I'm understanding your comment correctly...

With the advent of marketed erectile dysfunction meds available, I felt using the term 'beating a dead horse' wasn't applicable. :))

nailingit — December 4, 2013 at 10:39 a.m.

And, 'smarty pants' is just a book by Tina Fey. :))

jacjak — December 4, 2013 at 2:49 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Manthou do you know if it increased the money taken in by VA. That would be the big question. Our registration fees are not bad as compared to what they were way back. I have several trucks and I would not be opposed to a increase that would be reasonable. But a mileage tax would be good as it would apply to the actual users. Also public transportation fees would have to be increased also. Those that use public transportation are also using the roads. I like user fees if they are applied evenly across the board.

timerick — December 4, 2013 at 2:53 p.m. ( | suggest removal

manthou/timerick: Virginia also tolls its major bridges and roads. A single passenger vehicle on the ChesBayBrdgTun will pay $12 beginning Jan 1.

JohnK — December 4, 2013 at 3 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Maybe a mileage tax of some sort that would be collected at renewal time. I don't know but I do think we need something different.

timerick — December 4, 2013 at 2:20 p.m.

I like the idea of a milage tax. It seems more fair with more and more hybrids and electrics on the road.

jacjak — December 4, 2013 at 3:05 p.m. ( | suggest removal

jacjak — December 4, 2013 at 3:05 p.m.

The idea is good but the specifics are mind boggling. What happens if you are driving out of state and that state doesn't do it that way? What if you take a road trip to Virginia, how does that work? Do you pay gas tax in states that have it and mileage in our state or do you get dinged for ALL of it at the end of the year? YIKES! Lots of records, or maybe a GPS that keeps track of it all. (then there will be the conspiracy nuts going wild) Lots of luck.

hawkeye — December 4, 2013 at 3:18 p.m. ( | suggest removal

timerick — December 4, 2013 at 2:20 p.m.

It would be nice if congress would pass a stimulus package to improve our infrastructure which is what this tax is for. President Obama has introduced ways to pay for these types of projects-closing a few tax loopholes for the upper 2%, repeal oil subsidies for big oil, etc. etc. Unfortunately, republicans have framed these concepts/ideas to their base as "socialism" and "income redistribution", making a stimulus package for these types of projects unthinkable. So the burden falls to the middle class and the top 2% laugh all the way to the bank.

How we pay for this locally-how about a candy & soda tax? Oh robotics manufacturers to the CC commissioners six figures for every meaningless resolution they author.....entertainment tax.....oh yeah.....uh......

Mileage tax is as good as anything I guess.

nailingit — December 4, 2013 at 3:28 p.m. ( | suggest removal

“The fact that we live at the bottom of a deep gravity well, on the surface of a gas covered planet going around a nuclear fireball 90 million miles away and think this to be normal is obviously some indication of how skewed our perspective tends to be.”
― Douglas Adams, The Salmon of Doubt: Hitchhiking the Galaxy One Last Time

Sure enjoy checking into the forum periodically to get a nice dose of perspective. No matter which side of any debate, there's always much I've not considered from some angle or other.

jacjak — December 4, 2013 at 3:41 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Just got back from the Dentist...
The problem with WA state and Oregon is that they do not use the tax gas collected for the purpose it is designed for. They rob the gas tax to pay for other projects. Oregon wants to double its Fed gas tax, at least that’s what Mr. Blowhard is wanting, with no guarantee that it will be used for the purpose of Road maintenance and the such. If we would only use the tax collected for the purpose it was designed for I think we would be in much better shape. The mileage tax will hurt businesses that have delivery or other vehicles that drive a few miles. They would have to pass that increase along to consumers and wam, increased prices. Our local weak State Legislators are at best anemic when it comes to having any Kahunies...or such..PC... Where over taxed and need to rain in stealing from one agency to pay for another Legislators pet project...We need new leadership in Olympia...

The repubs have put some ideas to paper but cannot bring it to bear unless the current system is gone, and right now it's the law of the land. Being in the insurance business this makes much more sense. For example if I could buy insurance from an Oregon Company MODA I would be saving $145 over my current plan instead of my current plan going up $385 ....There you one bit of saving ..The other one that will keep obamacare from reaching it's potential is Pre existing... Read what the report has to say about that...

vanwadreamer — December 4, 2013 at 3:47 p.m. ( | suggest removal

I like the mileage tax idea a lot. It rewards people who use public transportation or who don't drive often or far.

I am very disappointed that WA state could not come up with something more creative to spread the pain around.

manthou — December 4, 2013 at 2:44 p.m

Problem with that idea is that public transportation fees would increase to pay for the increase in taxes. Basic cause and effect.

ELISI — December 4, 2013 at 3:55 p.m. ( | suggest removal

JohnK — December 4, 2013 at 3 p.m.

some interesting facts I thought I'd share -

Percentage of persons living below the poverty level in Virginia - 10.7%. Washington State - 12.5%.

The average median wage income for Virginia is around $61,000. In Washington State, it is around $56,500.

State sales tax in Virginia is 5.3%. In some regions of Washington State, it is as high as 9.6%. We are the 4th highest in the nation.

To register your vehicle in Virginia, you pay $40.75 for anything 4000 lb and smaller. A title fee is $10. It is $32 to renew your driver license. In Washington State, $43.75 will cover registration. Then there's new plate fees, RTA tax fees in certain areas and emission inspection fees. Driver License renewal...$35.

Price of regular unleaded gasoline on average in Virginia today is $3.21 per gallon.
In Washington State - $3.28.

Virginia has state payroll taxes between 2 and 5.75%, depending on tax bracket. Washington State has none.

goldenoldie — December 4, 2013 at 4:07 p.m. ( | suggest removal

It would be nice if congress would pass a stimulus package to improve our infrastructure which is what this tax is for.
nailingit — December 4, 2013 at 3:28 p.m

Wasn't the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act of 2009 was for the very thing you speak of?

"The Act included direct spending in infrastructure, education, health, and energy, federal tax incentives, and expansion of unemployment benefits and other social welfare provisions."
"The approximate cost of the economic stimulus package was estimated to be $787 billion at the time of passage, later revised to $831 billion between 2009 and 2019"

ELISI — December 4, 2013 at 4:09 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Elisi people that use public transportation should pay more if the tax's on fuel go up. They are also using the roads and bridges. You can't ask the drivers and the property owners to foot the whole bill for them. And I am sure the increase to them would not be great. What would you say should be a reasonable fee to go from say salmon creek park and ride to down town Portland and back. I am not sure how C-Tran works but I think the those with not much income get a break on bus pass's already which is fine. Not everyone that ride the bus are low income.

timerick — December 4, 2013 at 4:13 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Washington State is sitting on a goldmine of taxable income yet they refuse to consider it. They could EASILY start up a 1% payroll tax which would alleviate the issues of lack of funding yet they would rather force everyone out of their vehicles and into sardine cans or sardine cans on a string in order to suit the folly of transit companies who THINK they know what is best for our future.

goldenoldie — December 4, 2013 at 4:14 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Goldie a payroll tax to be paid by who? Employee's or the business? If the employee that would be a income tax. Here in Vancouver business already pays a 50 dollar per employee head tax that also includes any corporate officers. For me it matters not much, but if you have 100 employee's it could really add up.

timerick — December 4, 2013 at 4:33 p.m. ( | suggest removal

ELISI — December 4, 2013 at 4:09 p.m.

Completely watered down with 40% of it going to tax breaks. I'm speaking of another stimulus anyway. Money is cheap to borrow and bang for buck it would result in great returns. We need to invest in our country, not starve it.

nailingit — December 4, 2013 at 4:44 p.m. ( | suggest removal

timerick — December 4, 2013 at 4:13 p.m

I agree, but where will it end? My husbands company is already paying through the nose for
"road use tax" or a "highway use tax" in three states Oregon being the highest. He pays an excise tax on tires, etc, we understand cause of the weight of trucks and trailers do damage to the roads and feel the taxes should go to pay for road/highway/freeway repair.

He feels they should outlaw studded snow tires they do more damage to the roads than a full loaded semi-truck and trailer.

ELISI — December 4, 2013 at 4:46 p.m. ( | suggest removal

vanwadreamer — December 4, 2013 at 3:47 p.m.

What an absolutely absurd "plan". A voucher system? No wonder Boehner laughed when asked if republicans had anything to bring to the floor. And how does this bring down health care costs as they are currently dropping now?

"The Republican plan, by contrast, treats pre-existing conditions as a significant but discrete problem."

This is just silly stuff, and brings front and center that the GOP has nothing.

No overall cost to the plan and does nothing to cover the tens of millions uninsured, which will cause a continuation of skyrocketing rates through emergency room services and neglected care. Again, just silly stuff. Why is it you think Boehner laughed.....I'll take the republican idea of the personal mandate over this-big time. This is the Ryan plan stuff which voters have already denounced.

Sorry vanwa...more of the same, but worse. And how is giving everyone a $7500 voucher not framed as "socialism"?

Just curious. You've stated you are a small business owner of a transportation service in the past. At what level are you vested in the professional insurance biz?

nailingit — December 4, 2013 at 4:46 p.m. ( | suggest removal

nailingit — December 4, 2013 at 4:44 p.m

Yup 40% to rich cronies. What about the millions upon millions given to those energy companies (Solyindra) that still went bankrupt?

ELISI — December 4, 2013 at 4:52 p.m. ( | suggest removal

The Solyindra thing. :) Of course not all companies invested in are going to be successful, never have, never will, it's the nature of the beast. Obama presented what could be passed in the House. Instead of it being DOA, at least we got something passed. But with just a little cooperation from the other side of the aisle we could, and can get so much more done.

There's a reason this House of Reps is rated historically the worst and least productive in United States history.

nailingit — December 4, 2013 at 5:19 p.m. ( | suggest removal

for god's sake, aren't people smart enough to figure out socialism? We give BILLIONS to Pratt/Whitney, our own Boeing, Gruum/McDonald, Raytheon, gawwdddd, the list is endless. But we keep on giving. And then there's Wally-World and their ilk. We subsidize their working poor to the tune of $1.2M/year per store as the Walton clan sits on billions. They occupy 4/5 top spots of the richest americans, (all 5 in the top 10). The US just scored highly in the only thing we could in an international rating-we have 2 cities in the top 10 most dangerous cities in which to live-only country in the world to do so- nothing in the top 20 in terms of education, liveability, etc. But hey, we've still got more aircraft carriers than the rest of 'em . It seems even the Pope realizes how FU'd we (or our system) is, but oh, well.

Even more ironic-the ACA is a plan fed back to the corporations, (the Reps' anti-single payer system) and for that reason it sucks (no single-payer Medicare system). The approval rating of "socialist countries" health care system dwarfs that of the US and there ain't a damn one of the "socialist countries" emulating or wanting our for profit system.
If you're pissing and moaning about Solyindra, you're not seeing the big picture. Were you bent out of shape when the F-35 Eagle planes' budget is already up to $1.5T? The original budget was $1.25T. Out of 100 planes at $1.25M each, it was a "coalition" with Britain. They're buying 5, we're buying the other 995. Some coalition.

mrd — December 4, 2013 at 5:38 p.m. ( | suggest removal

There's a reason this House of Reps is rated historically the worst and least productive in United States history.

nailingit — December 4, 2013 at 5:19 p.m

Now, now Nail, lets add Dem's in there also. This whole mess can not be blamed on one side only. Look at the ACA, didn't the Dem's lock the Rep's out of it? Now cry foul saying the R's had nothing to do with it? Come on even I don't buy that, D's deliberately shut the R's out so if it doesn't work as they think it will, who will the D's blame? The R's of course. Both parties are guilty of doing the old "shut 'em out game" so if it doesn't work out, the blame game can be played.

Heck even the main stream liberal media and a few in congress is saying it's the R's fault for the web site not working for those who are trying to signup for ACA. (rolling eyes) ;)

ELISI — December 4, 2013 at 5:48 p.m. ( | suggest removal

nailingit and elisi,

Maybe if we'd have had some sort of oversight on the distribution of that stimulus money it would have been put to better use. Far too little was spent on the critical infrastructure it was supposed to go to (i.e. roads and bridges), far too much was spent on unnecessary projects (like those to upgrade or build new federal buildings), and there's apparently a whole lot that went "somewhere" and who knows what it was used for.

roger — December 4, 2013 at 6:06 p.m. ( | suggest removal

And the conversation turns to straw........

nailingit — December 4, 2013 at 6:09 p.m. ( | suggest removal

timerick — December 4, 2013 at 4:33 p.m.

Tim, thank you for catching my error. I truly meant to say "Income Tax." This is something everyone who makes a wage, a profit...could pay their fair share.

goldenoldie — December 4, 2013 at 6:11 p.m. ( | suggest removal

roger — December 4, 2013 at 6:06 p.m.

Considering 40% went to tax breaks it turned out to be pretty anemic. Only so much to go around.

nailingit — December 4, 2013 at 6:14 p.m. ( | suggest removal

roger — December 4, 2013 at 6:06 p.m.

Here's an overall breakdown.

nailingit — December 4, 2013 at 6:19 p.m. ( | suggest removal

nailingit — December 4, 2013 at 6:09 p.m.

...and you are the scarecrow???

Why is it when others are engaged in a discussion with a little hindsight, somebody ALWAYS has to throw in the ol' "straw man" argument???

Just curious.

goldenoldie — December 4, 2013 at 6:19 p.m. ( | suggest removal

mrd — December 4, 2013 at 5:38 p.m

First off get off the spill about the carriers..we have 11 active carrier, went through this with you before, not in the mood to do it all over again.

Now as far as the F-15's..

The United Kingdom is the sole "Level 1" partner, contributing US$2.5 billion, which was about 10% of the planned development costs under the 1995 Memorandum of Understanding that brought the UK into the project. Level 2 partners are Italy, which is contributing US$1 billion; and the Netherlands, US$800 million. Level 3 partners are Canada, US$475 million; Turkey, US$195 million; Australia, US$144 million; Norway, US$122 million and Denmark, US$110 million. Israel and Singapore have joined as so-called "security cooperative participants"

The United States Department of Defense was planning to buy 14 F-35Bs in fiscal year 2012 and 25 the following year. Instead, six will be bought next year and another six in fiscal year 2013. Over the next five years, the Marine Corps will receive 50 F-35s, down from a planned 110. The number of Navy F-35Cs and Air Force F-35As will also be reduced. The Navy total was reduced by seven jets over the next five years, with most of the cuts in fiscal year 2016, while the number of Air Force jets was decreased by 57 over the next five years. Only 19 jets are slated for delivery next year.

On 29 November 2012, the Pentagon reached an agreement on Lot 5 of the F-35 program, buying 32 aircraft. Lot 5 contains 22 F-35As, 3 F-35Bs, and 7 F-35Cs. The contract deal was rushed to protect them from possible sequestration cuts.[37] However the JSF was noted as one of major programs that would suffer cuts if the house of representatives fails to follow the Senate's lead in passing a bill to resolve the United States fiscal cliff. Lot 6 was awarded on 28 December 2012. The contract is for 18 F-35As, 6 F-35Bs, and 7 F-35Cs. Deliveries of the Lot 6 order will begin in mid-2014. Lot 6 included the 31 aircraft for the U.S., plus 3 F-35As for Italy and 2 F-35As for Australia. As of 30 July 2013, Lockheed has delivered 67 F-35s from the first five production lots, with 28 still on order. On 30 July 2013, Lockheed agreed to reduce prices on Lot 6 by 4 percent compared to Lot 5, and will reduce the price of Lot 7 by another 4 percent. Pricing for Lot 5 took one year of negotiating, while Lots 6 and 7 took six months. Lot 6 prices are $100.8 million for the F-35A, $108.5 million for the F-35B, and $120 million for the F-35C. Lot 7 deliveries for 35 aircraft will begin in mid-2015, and includes 19 F-35As for the USAF, 6 F-35Bs for the USMC, 4 F-35Cs for the USN, 3 F-35As for Italy, 2 F-35As for Norway, and 1 F-35B for the U.K. Lot 7 prices are $96.8 million for the F-35A, $104.2 million for the F-35B, and $115.2 million for the F-35C. Full-rate production for the F-35A is expected at $80–90 million per unit. A deal for Lots 6 and 7 was officially finalized on 24 September 2013.

ELISI — December 4, 2013 at 6:20 p.m. ( | suggest removal

roger — December 4, 2013 at 6:06 p.m.

When you can figure out a way for any and all government funding to be used wisely, please let me know.

goldenoldie — December 4, 2013 at 6:24 p.m. ( | suggest removal

goldenoldie — December 4, 2013 at 6:19 p.m.

That was directed @ ELISI — December 4, 2013 at 5:48 p.m.

"somebody ALWAYS has to throw in the ol' "straw man" argument???"

Straw man # 2 garnished with some red herring. :))

nailingit — December 4, 2013 at 6:24 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Here is the site for what I posted.. I know, I know it's wiki but it's better than scouring the various military and gov web sites.

ELISI — December 4, 2013 at 6:25 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Uh boy...mrd...I knew when I read your comment @5:38pm, that ELISI would provide the numbers...the FACTS.

goldenoldie — December 4, 2013 at 6:28 p.m. ( | suggest removal

nailingit — December 4, 2013 at 6:24 p.m.

Shall we throw in the sour cream and chives???


goldenoldie — December 4, 2013 at 6:32 p.m. ( | suggest removal

nailingit — December 4, 2013 at 6:09 p.m

hmmm well nail's my hair is a tad grey, not quite 'straw' ...yet ;)

ELISI — December 4, 2013 at 6:41 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Knowing that several of our forum contributors are fascinated and captivated with today's world of transportation, (yawn) I thought some would uncontrollably salivate at this Politico read. Enjoy. (My favorite is the Hyperloop!-(yawn8>)

///Billionaires and transportation toys///

2) Musk’s Hyperloop

"What he came up with was as bizarre as it was futuristic: He wants to enclose people in aluminum pods and shoot them in a steel tube at speeds exceeding 700 mph, allowing them to travel from Los Angeles to San Francisco in 35 minutes. Engineers have said Musk’s plan would work — at least on paper."

Read more:

nailingit — December 4, 2013 at 8:35 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Since Don Benton is at the ALEC convention this week, it would be good to read this inside peek of the gathering attempted by Dana Milbank. This article was posted by Heather Tischbein on the C3G2 website today.

Milbank reveals that the state ALEC leaders, Don B being WA's, may be taking a loyalty oath. Part of its text is revealed in the article below. Also of note, ALEC is losing legislators and corporations.

I wonder why…..

manthou — December 4, 2013 at 9:19 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Quite the conversation going on! Sounds like the Crain knew exactly what she was saying. What a classy gal!

Carolyn Crain · Top Commenter · John Adams High School

"Ron Goodman I was attempting to wake up the council before they just voted the way they always do in their predetermined vote for raising taxes. And yes it was probably too graphic for kids but.....";_medium=rss&utm;_campaign=an-uncomfortable-and-inaccurate-choice-of-words

nailingit — December 4, 2013 at 9:32 p.m. ( | suggest removal

manthou — December 4, 2013 at 9:19 p.m.

It sounds like an environment Benton would thrive in.

nailingit — December 4, 2013 at 10:05 p.m. ( | suggest removal

To be fair to the Crain, I printed the rest of her statement. Sounds as though she tried to give herself a back door. (YEEECH) While personalizing it in the beginning, "I was attempting to wake up the council...", she then spoke of how it also can be used differently. Anyway, enough Crain time. I just hope she doesn't swoop in and curse the "spewed twisted info." Yikes!

".....give me a break here please it is also used in political speak referring to jerking people around. Asking please and begging them to be considerate has not done a damned thing except get them to spew twisted information and use the excuse that "we are just following the will of the people since they voted for us to do this". They voted to cap what could be taxed hoping that those in power would tax and spend when and where necessary not un-necessary. Perhaps the parents could start by explaining the budget and the tax system and then migrate into what is freedom from oppression by elected officials. The kids could grow up smarter and recognize what real facts and real solutions look like. Then they will have a chance at freedom from oppression or some one redistributing their wealth to some private for profit developer."

nailingit — December 4, 2013 at 10:18 p.m. ( | suggest removal


you applying for one of the six mj licenses?

just wonderin.....


DeeLittle — December 4, 2013 at 11:54 p.m. ( | suggest removal

manthou — December 4, 2013 at 9:19 p.m.

Interesting article - Thanks for linking to it. As Milbank notes, ALEC started as a somewhat right of center organization that represented corporate interests, and moved to the far right with their later interest in the social agenda. If this is causing the mainstream business community to leave, then I wonder what group(s) are representing them now? Someone has to spread the cash around to ensure their interests are met.

roger — December 5, 2013 at 5:32 a.m. ( | suggest removal

nailingit — December 4, 2013 at 8:35 p.m.

Musk's idea of a hyper loop probably shows he read Asimov's Foundation series - He had this mode of travel in some of the stories based on Trantor. A lot of what we have today was first suggested by the old writers - from Verne to Asimov, Clarke,, so you can never tell. I'm waiting for the harnessing of magnetic power that could allow the "moving sidewalks" like in the airports to expand to a large scale application - imagine the daily commute to Portland on a couple of those. (And we'll still have to deal with people not standing to the right to allow those in a hurry space to walk.)

roger — December 5, 2013 at 5:48 a.m. ( | suggest removal

goldenoldie — December 4, 2013 at 6:24 p.m. --- "When you can figure out a way for any and all government funding to be used wisely, please let me know."

Isn't that the purpose of the whole discussion - One that's been engaged in ever since governments began taxing their people?

roger — December 5, 2013 at 5:51 a.m. ( | suggest removal

roger @ 5:48 am: I am holding out for time travel……

nailingit @ 9:32 pm: There are so many other ways to "wake up" a politician that are less crass. If you do something that effectively turns off their hearing, well, you are, essentially engaging in your own fruitless CJ. As for the city council not listening to her, now she knows how so many citizens feel after they testify in front of the M and M Boyz.

manthou — December 5, 2013 at 6:27 a.m. ( | suggest removal

I want to make a comment about the warm and fuzzy story today: the attorney who offers money to struggling mothers to stay in their homes and gain custody of their children again.

On the surface, it makes you go "Awwwww, what a great guy." Abraham Maslow wisely pointed out, without the basic necessities of food, shelter, and clothing, no one can advance well in life.

Is this attorney actually dancing around a WSB gray ethical area, though, when he gives the women and children jobs at his own home? I think so. To be squeaky clean, he should refer them to other agencies that can hook them up with volunteer jobs to keep himself out of the loop.

Just sayin'

manthou — December 5, 2013 at 6:34 a.m. ( | suggest removal

*** Bark of the Day! ***

A nobody's perspective of two old women....Carolyn Crain and Debbie Petterson.

Both lost elections. Both are menopause enduring. Both are frustrated. Both seem to be without a partner. Both seem to be right wingers. Both have a lot of time on their hands. Both vegetate political meetings. Both are drama queens. Both pester the social media. Both are aligned with the Three Stooges. Both seem to be very unhappy women. Both are NOT EASY on the eyes. Both are obese so they are not even capable to exercise and demonstrate will power and discipline that is essential to match the thoughts of someone that ought to be listened to. They just don't have it together and will be depending on us for their health needs later on in life because they did not assume "personal responsibility" of being the best you can be. They failed!

I rest my case, both are a big waste of taxpayer's time and monies because like the three stooges, that is what they are doing.


If you have the time and since you are talking about Benton's trip to ALEC. Watch this....History is a good reminder and can be used to establish parallels on how certain "special interests" groups can "manufacture" a reality and lead the ignorant to complete destruction. There are only two groups, the controllers and the controlled. The controllers are always planning how to tight even more the grip that chokes all of us by economic means. You control the money, the jobs, the politics, the mind (religion), you have total control and the definition of modern day slavery. Many refuse to admit that they are slaves but that is what they are. They don't control anything but the will to starve themselves or auto elimination unless the predators do the deed first....


nicepuppy — December 5, 2013 at 6:46 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Good Lord, nicepuppy: can you be more misogynistic in your first bark this morning? I usually ignore this stuff, but sometimes, ignoring implies complicity or agreement.

Why do you constantly pollute valuable, thought-provoking ideas you sometimes have with this kind of stuff? It makes it impossible to engage you in rational discussion.

manthou — December 5, 2013 at 7:04 a.m. ( | suggest removal

you applying for one of the six mj licenses?"

No, Dee. I'm a bit stove-up and not up to operating a business, much less getting one off the ground (there's a "high" pun there, somewhere). And, of course, there's a matter of venture capital; not the least of which would be attorney's fees.

Currently, I'm concerned about the future of medicinal cannabis in this state. Though statements made in favor of 502 stated it wouldn't affect medicinal, the (draft) recommendations by the Liquor Control Board would gut 69.51a (medweed law) if they were adopted by the legislature.

I've been waiting to see a published revision to the recs. It's tough to pull together a letter to my legislators when I don't really know what I'm speaking to. It's gonna be a little too cold today to piddle around outside. I'll make that one of my indoor projects.

Drift — December 5, 2013 at 7:14 a.m. ( | suggest removal

What a fantastic investigative piece linked below!

Here is the Guardian article on ALEC, published on Dec 3. Looks like WalMart and Coca Cola are two examples of big corporations which have distanced themselves from ALEC.

Also, the loyalty oath considered of all state ALEC reps was never officially adopted. Good thing for Don Benton. Otherwise, he would have to promise to put ALEC's interests ahead of his constituents. We know he would never, ever do that………:)

manthou — December 5, 2013 at 7:22 a.m. ( | suggest removal

LOL Manthou... Can you disagree with any of my findings on the first paragraph? If so, state your case. This is not a chauvinistic appreciation of their misery, we men have issues of our own....hehehehe

There is nothing irrational in the first paragraph, it is the truth and we were indoctrinated to be the rabbit in the Bamby movie scene relating that if you don't have anything nice to say, don't say it at all. But that ought not to include a real appreciation of their lack of virtues in the public arena. These women are a menace caused by their own condition at this stage of their lives. They live in a bubble and they have the nerve to think that we are all trapped in their bubble. They are frustrated women, have no doubt. If they had a man in their lives that loved them, they would be worried about loving and enjoying the rest of their lives, not being in contempt with everything that does not adjust to the mold they are trapped in.

nicepuppy — December 5, 2013 at 7:29 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Great link Manthou!

nicepuppy — December 5, 2013 at 7:37 a.m. ( | suggest removal

nicepuppy: Your first paragraph is your honest opinion, apparently, and it is well-protected opinion, thanks to our Constitution. I just was exercising mine to give you some feedback.

Menopausal? Not easy on the eyes? Unloved and frustrated? If we focus on the content of their opinions and ideas, that is fairer game and the kind of conversation that may be more informative.

Just wanted to express that to you. I'd rather see some attention on the ALEC article right now, rather than a sidebar fight.

manthou — December 5, 2013 at 7:38 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Pup, seriously! What you are implying is that women of a certain age are all miserable. And that they need a male to feel good.

I counter with: look to yourself. Maybe you need more in your life and maybe you are miserable, therefore the projection.Your rants. Stick to the topics, make your valid points, and leave the male piglet at home.

But enough. As Manthou said, I rather focus on ALEC also. That's a serious issue, in my opinion.

luvithere — December 5, 2013 at 7:43 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Yesterday's NYT added some additional information to the Guardian piece on ALEC. Not sure how Benton/Madore will explain the hypocrisy of hiding behind anonymous donors while promising an 'open and transparent' government, but I'll look forward to the effort.

JohnK — December 5, 2013 at 8:16 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Hahahahah Avoid the issue seems to be the rule of the day.

Look you too. I know happy women at that age range and those two seem to have a lot in common in the unhappy area. It just happened that they were of one gender in this case. I would like to know and please take no offense....

What do they excel at but annoying the public airwaves time and time again defending the indefensible?

Why are they not in their best shape possible? What went wrong?

Luvit I am in top shape for a person of my age. Not for an ego issue, just because I live an active lifestyle and want to remain active perhaps without dependencies until the day I die. You can't afford to be sick at an old age. No budget can support that. Our parents got away with it but our generation and beyond are screwed unless we assume the responsibility to be in the best condition possible. A person that ignores that fact, to me, has more important issues to deal with instead of pestering and interfering in local governments productive time.

Oh lovit, I am a piglet no doubt. So are most of us males, if not all. It is a brain wiring thing... Remember we penetrate, you embrace. Wow, that was a radical x rated thought.....hahahaha

ALEC away.... ;)

nicepuppy — December 5, 2013 at 8:20 a.m. ( | suggest removal

obviously Elisi has plenty of time to research details. I was shooting from memory on things I've read, or so I thought.

Anyway, none of those statistics alter the point. A country internally rotting away and terminally bankrupt can always find billions of dollars for new weapons even if they have to deprive millions of people money for food. We can always find money for an F-35ABC or D, whatever, but cut funding for education even as the US nosedives in international standards.

BTW, your numbers actually support my point, thanks.

mrd — December 5, 2013 at 8:29 a.m. ( | suggest removal

I can't find a revised version of the WSLCB's recommendations.
So, I started looking to see how many people are in a passenger train locomotive. Can it really be one; the engineer?!

My ol' man was an engineer. I recall a big stink about the Southern Pacific doing away with the position of fireman, as, obviously, there wasn't a fire to tend. Back then it was all about a union issue, not safety.

I recall seeing something about a dead man's switch. If the engineer's foot leaves a pedal for a given length of time the engine shuts down. What if the engineer dies with his foot on the pedal?

Really? Only one person in the cab of an engine? The next time I take Amtrak I'll pay special attention as the train rolls in. Two gnarley crashes because the guy with his hand on the throttle spaced out. I can't help but believe with a second individual in there the likelihood of that happening would be greatly reduced.

Drift — December 5, 2013 at 8:29 a.m. ( | suggest removal

JohnK @ 8:16 am: I had not seen the NYT blog post. It certainly pinpoints the significance of The Jeffersonian Project to ALEC's future survival.

If Thomas J had any clue of how his recognizable and respected name would be used to draw in the gullible or circumvent laws, I imagine he would be horrified.

manthou — December 5, 2013 at 8:31 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Manthou and Luvithere,

It's very clear that he hasn't a clue what "activist" means. :)

ELISI — December 5, 2013 at 8:52 a.m. ( | suggest removal

The enablers revolt! :)))


manthou — December 5, 2013 at 6:34 a.m.

Spot on. I would think this is crossing the lines of professional ethics. I think of good fathers fighting for custody of their children from drug addicted moms, and the thought of some lawyer crossing these lines is a bit absurd. This could go bad for all involved really quick.

nailingit — December 5, 2013 at 8:53 a.m. ( | suggest removal

But Manthou...that is the norm in our right wing genetic mishap... Look at the Three Stooges, they bypassed process and not even in hiding, they just did it in front of our noses and nobody has done a thing about it, but poor Anita and her tort claim. Even the County did not enforce its own due process and punished the ones that broke it swiftly. They knew that from minute one and that is the reason why they did it. They could get away with it.

We have been taken over by crooks, dishonest people that will do anything to satisfy the needs of their agenda for control of everything starting with our net income if you are lucky to have one, These people are predators, have no doubt. They prey taking advantage of laws and regulations that most of the time they created with the necessary fine print or up to interpretation by subservient judges to rule on their side.

It is a conspiracy for total control. Many people think that conspiracies are wacko thought processes when in reality, they want you to think as such, in order to protect their methodology and their loot obtained by it.

This is and has been all along a "control" war over people's minds, work, resources and income. After that, there is nothing left to control.

As I said, predators and prey. The law of the jungle, nothing more, nothing less.

Take the money out of the equation. Just take the money out. What would they do? Cannibalism to satisfy their hunger and need for total control? Probably....

nicepuppy — December 5, 2013 at 9:04 a.m. ( | suggest removal


Why aren't you complaining about about the billions of billions of dollars given to other countries when our own are in need? Instead of your constant complaint about the defense budget, try checking into what our government pays out to other countries for a change.
Money given to other countries for whatever purpose that always seems to come back and bite our behinds in the end.
Money that the 47 million on the SNAP program could use as well as those who are homeless etc.
Money that could have been used for healthcare for those who don't have.

So until they stop giving our tax dollars away to these countries and use it to help our own, and stop playing "world police" for every Tom, Dick, and Harry country maybe, just maybe the defense budget would grow smaller..that is if these big corporation would also stop raping on their prices.

ELISI — December 5, 2013 at 9:08 a.m. ( | suggest removal

As a side note: Chris Matthews scored an interview with Obama today on his 'college tour' series. (on @ 4:00 MSNBC) I hope he is as pointed with the prez in person as he is on his show. Such as why this president isn't promoting a much larger infrastructure program than he is. Propose big ideas and make this republican house stand up and say no. Also, in light of yesterday's speech, this president could up the minimum wage for federal workers by executive order. Hopefully this will be mentioned. Obama is framed as a dictator anyway, it's past time he started circumventing this obstructive congress to pass his agenda. Let the voters have a provable foundation in '16 to cast their vote, other than 'what if' ideas to run on. Man up Obama! :)

nailingit — December 5, 2013 at 9:34 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Listening to BOCC Board Time audio. Mielke is so dense and Pete Capell is so patient in trying to explain the most elementary concepts to this guy. Madore gets the big picture of the importance of certain property acquisitions and trail system expansion, but Mielke thinks it is frivolous. He wants to build more parking lots. The money is there and they need to spend it or lose it.

If Pete Capell gets that Camas City Manager job, the loss to efficient process and productive discussion at these meetings will be significant.

manthou — December 5, 2013 at 10:17 a.m. ( | suggest removal

ELISI — December 5, 2013 at 9:08 a.m.

I think your argument about foreign aid and how it relates to other projects is a non sequitur of sorts. I've beat this drum before to those who denounce too much foreign aid. A fraction, one and one half % (about 55 billion) of our Fed budget goes to this. Most of it to support economic and political stability in conflicted regions around the world. Much goes to Middle Eastern countries. (we should recalculate how much goes to Egypt imo.) Much goes to humanitarian resources, such as farming, medicinal supplies and fighting diseases such as aids, which, in the long run, benefit everyone in the world to include us.

Great article (from Veterans Today) concerning the unreasonable amount we spend on Israel each year. Why we continue this (outside of the political arena) I don't know. Especially when we have a yahoo trumping war and our involvement every chance he gets. Just the military aid we give to Israel alone is a significant part of our foreign aid budget.

nailingit — December 5, 2013 at 10:19 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Nope never in Transportation other than running retail store many moons ago with a few delivery trucks. I have friends in the transportation business. We have family Insurance business right here in the Couv.

The plan that I linked to has had a couple wrinkles added which include pre existing coverage. At least we can argue about this when the ACA was presented no one even bothered to see what was in it , it's real affects on people and business. Then to have so many changes by the president currently over 27 to the ACA without any voting by congress.. AThen to reveal at the 11th hour, oh it's going to cost a bit more than I said, Ya can't keep your doctor or your plan.. COME ON MAN..The President LIED, would you AGREE with That???But to think this current program will work is a bit of Tom Foolery. OK I hope I used that correctly, wouldn't want to O Jerk anyone here.. The president thinks they will get 25 million folks of the 44 million insured.. Not going to happen with this plan. Toooo Costly...Right now about 80% of those signing up are for Medicaid, only about 20% real paying folks.. The young are staying away from signing up. Who in their right mind NAIL would pay $250 a month which is 3K a year with a 5K ded that's 8K before your Insurance kicks in one penny...Does that make sense to you. Does forcing someone to buy something they don't want on any grounds sound like fair play? Does it make monetary sense?? They need an average of 50K people a day to actually sign up to bank roll the program without footing the rest of it through increased taxes and increased Premiums. They are not even getting 20K a day to look at their program. I will admit that I don't like the current way our healthcare is run and costs, There are some good things in the ACA, But we need to come up with a better plan, which would be a joint venture between private sector and Gov't..IMHO it cannot be a forced upon program. And to Tax you if you don't that's just totally ridiculous...

Where Obama really failed early on in his presidency was when he was going to bring forth this huge Transportation bill that was going to bring us thousands of ready shovel jobs. He should have and could have done that... That should have been the bill that passed instead of the ACA.. Wonder where we would be now... Lower unemployment, higher wage paying jobs, a more robust economy...Why didn't he go through with that??? Instead we have the ACA which is draining money of the middle class faster than any other Federal program in the history of the US. JMHT...

And on his speech yesterday, allot of Hyperbole and hope with no substance, most news channels even went away from the speech and onto regular programming..

Hope we don't have another burn ban, I burn a bit of wood...this time of year....

vanwadreamer — December 5, 2013 at 10:50 a.m. ( | suggest removal

roger — December 5, 2013 at 5:48 a.m.

manthou — December 5, 2013 at 6:27 a.m.

I'm waiting for teletransportation to hit the scene! (beam me up Scotty)

When bringing up teleportation, I'd be remiss not to include this scene that was left on the cutting room floor of 'The Fly'. (really good horror movie and somewhat of a remake of V Prices endeavour) Not for the squeamish. Great clip if you're into horror flicks.

Disclaimer: No animals were harmed in the making of this scene. {:-()

nailingit — December 5, 2013 at 10:51 a.m. ( | suggest removal

And you thought you were covered;=maing-grid7%7Cmaing14%7Cdl2%7Csec1_lnk2%26pLid%3D415000

On a side note Oregon cannot process any more paper apps in time for Jan 1st implementation. It seems 50K apps is overwhelmed the folks going over them. Then come December 28 or 29th they find out they don't qualify for Obamacare.. Then have to go in open market.. They then won't be covered until Feb 1st at the earliest, just like on the federal level.. So lets say something happens in the meantime.. NO INSURANCE.. OUCH

Geez did I just post something from the HUFF POST.. Nail wonders never cease...

vanwadreamer — December 5, 2013 at 11:32 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Freeholder Agenda: already shaking things up in a good way.

I noticed that, for the December 10th Freeholder meeting, the agenda allows for 15 minutes max of public comment (3 minute limit each commenter) at the beginning of the meeting.

After the work agenda items are done, there is another opportunity for public comment from those who did not get to speak in the first 15 minutes.

Smart. I also expect the Chair will keep commenters to subjects that are relevant to Freeholders. In the first meeting, the elderly gentleman who frequents public hearings about some financial idea he has was gently admonished by Ann Rivers: is this germaine to Freeholder business?

Like I said a few days ago, we will get to witness how these Freeholders do and we may have some new CC Commission candidates from their extended "audition."

manthou — December 5, 2013 at 11:50 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Hey nails...anything more about the UFO's your daughter saw? In recent days, China launched a rocket to the moon for a mineral(s) expedition. I'm wondering if maybe what was seen was portions of their booster rockets re-entering the atmosphere. Or maybe it was more of those lit balloons like the ones seen over Vancouver awhile back.

Just a couple of thoughts. Here's a website for you and your daughter...with some recent reports:

goldenoldie — December 5, 2013 at 11:55 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Hey mister "proud ignorant nobody..."

I see you're at it again...this time, attacking middle-aged women.

Will you ever learn???

goldenoldie — December 5, 2013 at 11:57 a.m. ( | suggest removal

vanwa- Again, if anyone has a better idea, (with the exception of single payer which would never be passed by this House) please bring it. This republican inspired idea and the template used from republican governor and 2012 pres nominee Romney, seems to be as good as it gets in these much demonized socialist times. Again, this will play out in time. The slowdown in rising costs alone should be applauded. Just sayin'.

"Geez did I just post something from the HUFF POST.. Nail wonders never cease..."

:)) No, wonders never do cease. I suppose in part that's what makes our world go 'round. Glad to see you're lifting your head from Rush approved news media. :)

"He should have and could have done that..."

vanwadreamer — December 5, 2013 at 10:50 a.m.

God love ya vanwa. No-he couldn't have. He's not king as many on the right deem him to be. There is a process involved. Here are few sources to check out that will feed into your public transportation discussions. For the most part, extended conversation about bridges, light rail, highways, exits, tunnels, asphalt, tar, nicotine, traffic, gas, scooters, bicycles, etc. etc. etc. & etc., make me want to set my hair on fire.

From last year & slightly before...(where's Tonya when I need her?)

nailingit — December 5, 2013 at 12:29 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Jeez GD. Every time I bring valid "observations" you guys get verbally constipated...

I challenge you to prove me wrong. You can't! Take my observations of the two culprits one by one. Give it a shot. You can't!

Observation as to the freeholder leadership.....

- I watched the meeting and I already have a bad feeling about the chair, she sounds dictatorial and counterproductive. It would be like walking on eggs. Se had her own people to work with in advance in her mind it seems. Didn't like her one bit.

- 3 minute limits for a total of 15 minutes? Are you freaking kidding me. As long as it takes....I say!

- Ann Rivers for some reason rubs me wrong. Is it her nose or attitude, I don't know. She, for some reason thinks that her position represents authority. How wrong she is....she and many others are the ones we need to get rid off. Completely clean house. Do politics like we have never done before. How's that? If is doesn't benefit from the middle to the bottom of the pyramid it does not count. But how could we do so if these people are elected by money? They have to pay back the favors. The poor walmart slob is not represented there.

- I am very skeptical of this process unless.....There is zero tolerance for violation of due process and immediate firing, elected official or not. Zero tolerance for supporting any law or regulation that does not benefit the middle to the bottom levels of the pyramid. All others are taken care of already.

So there! Ignorant nobody stating his opinion at the expense of your verbal constipation...or not! ;)

nicepuppy — December 5, 2013 at 12:31 p.m. ( | suggest removal

goldenoldie — December 5, 2013 at 11:55 a.m.

No, but thanks for asking. The night I went out with her to the location of said sighting, I saw what appeared to be a stealth like military plane flying low and slow with lights as my daughter described in her sighting. I think this might have been it (although her and her friend witnessed more than six in formation that night) but just guessing. Her experience and details do give me pause.

Outside of transmitting energy signals used for power, I've always wondered why alien craft would emit any form of light signature. It's not like they're warning other craft of their presence. (Or are they? Might be included in their prime directive safety guide:)

Watch the skies! (to include clouds & undersea phenomena:)

nailingit — December 5, 2013 at 12:46 p.m. ( | suggest removal

"Why aren't you complaining about about the billions of billions of dollars given to other countries when our own are in need? Instead of your constant complaint about the defense budget, try checking into what our government pays out to other countries for a change."

Because I can't multi-task? Dunno, but you're right. I agree wholeheartedly.

mrd — December 5, 2013 at 1:05 p.m. ( | suggest removal

It's being reported Nelson Mandela has passed on.

nailingit — December 5, 2013 at 1:59 p.m. ( | suggest removal

vanwa- Thought you might enjoy this. (and from your new fave pub!)

///Kentucky Governor To Mitch McConnell: Get Your Facts Straight On Obamacare///

WASHINGTON -- It was just Wednesday night that Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell (R-Ky.) railed against the Affordable Care Act, calling it a "catastrophic failure" for people everywhere.

"This is beyond fixing. It needs to be pulled out root and branch and we need to start over," McConnell said during an interview on Fox's "On The Record With Greta Van Susteren." "It's been a catastrophe for health care and for the economy at large."

But the governor of McConnell's home state came to Capitol Hill on Thursday with a vastly different message: the health care law is working, and people in Kentucky can't get enough of it.

"I have a U.S. senator who keeps saying Kentuckians don't want this. Well, the facts don't prove that out," Kentucky Gov. Steve Beshear (D) told reporters.

Beshear said more than 550,000 people have visited the state's Obamacare enrollment website since it launched on Oct. 1. More than 180,000 have called into the health care call center and about 69,000 people have signed up, or about 1,000 Kentuckians per day. Of those who have signed up, he said, 41 percent are under the age of 35.

"There is a tremendous pent-up demand in Kentucky for affordable health care," Beshear said. "People are hungry for it."

The governor also boasted of the law's economic benefits to the state. Over the next eight years, he said, it will generate $15 billion for Kentucky's economy and create 17,000 new jobs.

Read more @

nailingit — December 5, 2013 at 2:06 p.m. ( | suggest removal

nailingit: The passing of another great human rights advocate……I look forward to watching the new movie of his life.

I want to also compliment you on being such a good dad. Some I know would have poo-pooed their daughter's report or, worse, yet, ridiculed it. You let her know that she can count on you by going back with her to take a look.

We had a similar experience years ago when our youngest, while camping in British Columbia, ran breathlessly to our base, swearing he had just seen Big Foot. My husband took the dog and went back to the scene with our excited boy. Nothing by the time he got there. But my son talked about that years later: Dad actually believed him and didn't diminish his perception of the experience.

I don't discount either sightings: UFO, Big Foot, or whatever. We are such a tiny speck in the infinite Universe. Billions and billions……….

manthou — December 5, 2013 at 2:15 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Too funny! Reads like an onion article. Now if they can only find someone to teach them about human compassion...

///GOP men tutored in running against women///

The National Republican Congressional Committee wants to make sure there are no Todd Akin-style gaffes next year, so it’s meeting with top aides of sitting Republicans to teach them what to say — or not to say — on the trail, especially when their boss is running against a woman.

Speaker John Boehner is serious, too. His own top aides met recently with Republican staff to discuss how lawmakers should talk to female constituents.

“Let me put it this way, some of these guys have a lot to learn,” said a Republican staffer who attended the session in Boehner’s office.

Read more:

nailingit — December 5, 2013 at 2:15 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Here is the Guardian article on ALEC, published on Dec 3. Looks like WalMart and Coca Cola are two examples of big corporations which have distanced themselves from ALEC.

manthou — December 5, 2013 at 7:22 a.m.

Google just joined ALEC... and here I thought they were all about renewable energy.

Have all day? Here's the list of businesses that have 'partnered' with ALEC. Who needs a Chamber of Commerce when you have these guys as your lobbyists? Oh wait, the Chamber of Commerce joined ALEC in 2011.

jacjak — December 5, 2013 at 2:16 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Again, if anyone has a better idea, (with the exception of single payer which would never be passed by this House) please bring it.

nailingit — December 5, 2013 at 12:29 p.m.

YUP, you know me, baby!!!


hawkeye — December 5, 2013 at 2:24 p.m. ( | suggest removal

manthou — December 5, 2013 at 2:15 p.m.

Thanks for that manthou. After about twenty-five minutes or so, we both agreed it was too damn cold to stay longer! :) Interesting story about your son. Trust and involvement make for great parenting bookends. Many of us humans fool ourselves into thinking we know it all, when in reality we've barely scratched the surface.

nailingit — December 5, 2013 at 2:27 p.m. ( | suggest removal

hawkeye — December 5, 2013 at 2:24 p.m.

If I'm understanding correctly, I believe they're the same. Using the government as a funding source. I'm with you hawk, Medicare for all. It's already in place and could be expanded to accommodate us. If that makes me a socialist, so be it.

I still don't understand how the republicans don't consider handing everyone a voucher as not being "socialist". (republicans are always on the lookout for freebies:)

nailingit — December 5, 2013 at 2:40 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Manthou and Nails. Shame on you both. Don't you know the earth is just 6000 years old and we are IT???

On the other hand and more seriously, I agree with both of you, having spotted something I still cannot explain at the age of 5.

luvithere — December 5, 2013 at 2:49 p.m. ( | suggest removal

health care reform?? no way we need that. check us out-per the world health organization we 38th, between Costa Rica and Slovenia. But we are #1 in per capita spending on health care. How can anyone see a problem with that? Granted, this is 13 years old, so we may have fallen further.

mrd — December 5, 2013 at 2:57 p.m. ( | suggest removal

JacJak/manthou: ALEC isn't the only right wing partisan political action group that Google is funding while lecturing its users to avoid evil.

JohnK — December 5, 2013 at 2:59 p.m. ( | suggest removal

No matter the debate on 2nd Amendment interpretation, this is brutal reading...
one week of guns in America.

jacjak — December 5, 2013 at 2:59 p.m. ( | suggest removal

nailingit — December 5, 2013 at 12:46 p.m.

I'm not sure about the alien aspect and I believe there has to be something else out there...somewhere, but it intrigues me what you described what was seen. I enjoy watching the night sky (even on bone chiller nights...although only for a moment...8))...) and would have loved to see what your family witnessed. I wish I'd had a good view of the recent comet which had a close encounter with the sun before it disintegrated...but we have too many trees in the way.

goldenoldie — December 5, 2013 at 3:56 p.m. ( | suggest removal

nicepuppy — December 5, 2013 at 12:31 p.m.

Better verbally constipated than chronic uncontrolled diarrhea of the mouth.

goldenoldie — December 5, 2013 at 3:58 p.m. ( | suggest removal

luvithere — December 5, 2013 at 2:49 p.m.

Luvit, I think all who are observant have witnessed an unexplainable phenomenon at least once in our lives. Is it military? Is it a natural occurrence? Is it human ingenuity...???

Or is it extra terrestrial???

We may never know!

(queue the Twilight Zone music)

goldenoldie — December 5, 2013 at 4:05 p.m. ( | suggest removal

goldenoldie — December 5, 2013 at 4:05 p.m.

Opting for ET here. I swear I had no idea what aliens even meant at 5. But I saw what I saw.

luvithere — December 5, 2013 at 4:42 p.m. ( | suggest removal

goldenoldie — December 5, 2013 at 4:05 p.m.

luvithere — December 5, 2013 at 4:42 p.m.

I've had two separate incidents which left no doubt. Just sayin'.

nailingit — December 5, 2013 at 5:04 p.m. ( | suggest removal

I enjoy watching the night sky (even on bone chiller nights...although only for a moment...8))...) and would have loved to see what your family witnessed. I wish I'd had a good view of the recent comet which had a close encounter with the sun before it disintegrated...but we have too many trees in the way.

goldenoldie — December 5, 2013 at 3:56 p.m.

If you have a smart phone, tablet or pad, Google Sky Map is great fun.... Think it works on Kindle too, not sure.

jacjak — December 5, 2013 at 5:06 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Should have said Kindle Fire.... don't think any apps work on prior generations.

jacjak — December 5, 2013 at 5:08 p.m. ( | suggest removal


You are verbally constipated because you can't come up with any argument to contrary my observations. As simple as that.

My advice is to call those two losers and start a knitting club so they leave local governments to do their work, that is what we are paying them for..... ;)

nicepuppy — December 5, 2013 at 5:58 p.m. ( | suggest removal

You know nicepuppy... what you are doing is considered a ban evasion and any smart moderator should ban any account posting under your ip.

Every forum I am or ever been on has used that policy for trolls such as yourself :)
Trolls main purpose is to cause flame wars to tick people off and cause problems.

Frankly, I don't know why the Columbian allows you to keep making one account after another. Since so many that have been banned never come back.
Unless of course you work for them..

ELISI — December 5, 2013 at 7:06 p.m. ( | suggest removal

OK. I asked this question once before. About single payer type Medicare for all. I don’t recall having got much of an answer.

Every citizen 65 or older is automatically covered by Medicare. Either by law, or lack of demand (I’m not sure which) medical insurance is not available for this age group.

Medicare has its own payment schedule. Although it varies a little for different procedures, from my experience of having dealt with a parent, it seems that Medicare pays around 50% of the billed amount from the service provider. Hospital, clinic, doctor, testing lab, what have you. The rest must be written off by the service provider who, by law, cannot come back to the patient for the difference. My take is that these lost revenues to the service provider must be being made up from the insurance covered patients – who end up paying more. I can see a sort of vicious circle here, where the service providers must take into account how much will be cut from their bills to Medicare patients, and adjust their overall service schedule prices to accommodate that.

So if every citizen is now covered by a government Medicare for all, then presumably government will be paying based on its own schedule. Say 50% of all billed charges. Just who makes up the difference now? Or is it your idea that the profit of insurance providers is so large, that if the profit is cut out then everything will be just fine? That leads to other questions, but first things first.

kn_dalai — December 5, 2013 at 7:13 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Luvithere, Nailingit, Goldenoldie,

I too have experienced the un-explainable. First time when I was around 5-6 was with 2 of my older brothers. They at the time were 13 and 16. The older of those 2 and I have searched through the yrs for an explanation, none so far.

Other things have happened over the yrs that makes me look to the skies every clear dark night to never going into a room without light.

ELISI — December 5, 2013 at 7:19 p.m. ( | suggest removal

I wonder if Benton will do some late night Cruzing with Teddy.

Ted Cruz To ALEC: 'Stand Your Ground' Against Dick Durbin

Still, all the controversy has taken a toll on ALEC. On Tuesday, the Guardian published internal group documents that showed "the network has lost almost 400 state legislators from its membership over the past two years, as well as more than 60 corporations that form the core of its funding. In the first six months of this year it suffered a hole in its budget of more than a third of its projected income."

There was a significant corporate presence at the policy summit this week, despite the defections. AT&T;, Chevron, PhRMA and Time Warner Cable were all sponsors of the event and took part in meetings to shape model legislation that were blocked to the press.

One piece of legislation being considered is what ALEC is calling a "soft repeal" of the 17th Amendment, which established the direct election of U.S. senators. Before the amendment was adopted in 1913, state legislatures chose senators.

Although he didn't comment specifically on the ALEC proposal, Cruz had unkind words for the 17th Amendment in his speech on Thursday.

Read more @

nailingit — December 5, 2013 at 7:58 p.m. ( | suggest removal

So if every citizen is now covered by a government Medicare for all, then presumably government will be paying based on its own schedule. Say 50% of all billed charges. Just who makes up the difference now? Or is it your idea that the profit of insurance providers is so large, that if the profit is cut out then everything will be just fine? That leads to other questions, but first things first.

kn_dalai — December 5, 2013 at 7:13 p.m.

Well, if the government pays only 50% and that's all the Doctors get, then I guess they will need to drop their prices.

hawkeye — December 5, 2013 at 8:10 p.m. ( | suggest removal

///ALEC’s chilling anti-green plot///

-Documents reveal the conservative alliance plans to attack state clean energy laws in 2014 -- and so much worse-

nailingit — December 5, 2013 at 8:44 p.m. ( | suggest removal

With the gentle snow flurries dancing in the chilly breezes this morning, I felt compelled to share a little holiday cheer to everyone who reads the forum.


goldenoldie — December 6, 2013 at 6:03 a.m. ( | suggest removal

kn_dalai — December 5, 2013 at 7:13 p.m.

The military health care system, TRICARE, pays rates similar to those of Medicare. The government's system is based on what insurance companies have practiced for years - determining an average cost for a service in an area, and then negotiating their own reimbursement rate based on numbers - we'll pay you less than you're asking, but we provide guaranteed payment and numbers of people steered your way by declaring you an in network provider.

Right now, we have a health care industry. The professionals may be driven by a concern for the person, but their decisions are driven by the corporation and by the insurance company. (Years ago, before TRICARE when military care on the economy was under Blue Cross/Blue Shield, I used to hear that the Doc would love to send me for an MRI to pinpoint a problem further, but insurance only allowed X-rays - so he had to guess. I never heard anything like this after we went under TRICARE in '94.)

The Medicare for all approach would kill that industry, and replace it with a government bureaucracy. The argument that government operations cost more has been shown to be wrong - several studies show that the government's Medicare runs at about a 2% administrative cost margin, while the insurance companies run at over 7%. Quality and availability of service are open to discussion.

And the area of medications is also something to discuss. Big Pharma, the cost of research, and Medicare pharmacy coverage is also one that involves billions of dollars.

roger — December 6, 2013 at 6:10 a.m. ( | suggest removal

jacjak — December 5, 2013 at 5:06 p.m.

Thanks for the tip, jacjak.

nailingit — December 5, 2013 at 5:04 p.m.

I've had my share as well, including one incident of two brightly-lit "stars" not normally seen in the summer sky around 9:30pm. Through the binoculars, the lights on the "stars" appeared to be triangular in shape. Their colors changed two or three times, then suddenly one started moving and disappeared. Was it stationary weather satellites with one being repositioned??? Was it some kind of military aircraft??? Hard to say.

goldenoldie — December 6, 2013 at 6:28 a.m. ( | suggest removal

ELISI — December 5, 2013 at 7:06 p.m.

I'm through with feeding the troll. His ignorance is highly recognizable and nauseating, even though his discussion points on things that really matter are ...entertaining... to say the least. Not saying whether or not he's accurate but definitely interesting. Whether he's paid or not by anyone, he's been allowed to continue by those who are SUPPOSEDLY monitoring the forum...sparking a false sense of increased readership awareness when all it is is constant bitter, useless argument by an ignorant dawg. Better to ignore than to allow this type of behavior to continue. There is a cure for chronic, uncontrolled diarrhea of the mouth or in this case...of the comments and I'm exercising my right to heal the sick, lol.

goldenoldie — December 6, 2013 at 6:34 a.m. ( | suggest removal

People are driving way too fast on the side streets this morning, spinning out in front of our house. Stay safe if you have to go out early, folks. Watch the other guy, because many are driving as if it did not snow.

nailingit: Benton's involvement with ALEC as WA State's official leader will continue to become an escalating issue for Clark County Department of Environmental Services. He is in a clear conflict-of-interest with ALEC's legislative agenda and the stewardship of his public service job here. Someday, he will have to choose: do I betray Clark County or ALEC?

manthou — December 6, 2013 at 7:10 a.m. ( | suggest removal

*** Bark of the Day ***

Cry me a river, take some pepto GD and Elisi, the two old hags that can't counterpoint squat when faced with the reality of two other extremely boring women pestering the BOCC, City Council, Ctran and RTC wasting people's and taxpayer's time and money. Get a life women. What is wrong with you? The oven is empty and cold, fill it up, do something!!!!!!!!!!


Award of the day for this Letter to the Editor. A master piece indeed!


So here we are, ending the year. What have we accomplished? Nothing! Zero! Nada! No bridge, no light rail, no jobs, no culture, no nothing! Way to go losers! That is the truth indeed. A bunch of losers that can't have a professional sports team or a theater or a world class indoor rock venue or anything box churches for the mental freedom short bus challenged. A step backwards progress wise if you ask me. Why is that? What is wrong with a dorm town that has so much trouble shaking loose the fleas that suck up the little discretionary income left on betting on a tale that is not here and it is not there, that prevents you from concentrating in the present and make it better. Don't you worry, here is the tale, just give me your money and your time. Suffering is okay, we are supposed to in order to get the big heavenly prize, eternal life. (wink, wink).

Well, I have news for is now, the time is now, tomorrow does not exist and there is no guarantees that will come for you or I. Talk about a cold shower huh?


There is a good Letter to the editor concerning dirty oil and coal coming to town. 195,000 tons of toxic pollutants to try to breath through? Who had this brainless idea to ruin this area? Are they that stupid? They are! Fire them all!


Excuse me, I have to take a piss on GD and Elisi's leg! Ahhhhhhhh I feel better now, too much coffee...LOL

nicepuppy — December 6, 2013 at 7:22 a.m. ( | suggest removal

roger @ 6:10 am: Single-payer healthcare, like Medicare, would significantly cut the need for private insurance companies (they could still provide supplemental plans) in the US, wouldn't it? I am sure the big insurance lobby has so many legislators in their hip pockets.

My understanding is that doctors who accept Medicare by extension accept the reduced payment fees. When we lived in Canada, doctors made significantly less per year than their US counterparts, because the government controlled the payments.

I sill think, as you do, that single payer is the best option because it levels the playing field.

As an aside, my private insurance is going up $300 per month in 2014, from $1200 a month to $1500 for the family plan! I am not yet Medicare-eligible, or it would be much lower. I suspect that the company, Moda Health, is trying to recover their ACA losses on some of our backs. D'uh.

manthou — December 6, 2013 at 7:24 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Roger insurance dictating what they will pay is nothing new to the automotive trade. We have dealt with it for 20 years. We do not set our prices. Body shops are the same way. We get a work order from say Farmers and the price we can charge is spelled out for us. If we charge more than told than they just short pay us. The price they come up with is determined by the area where the work is done. Say for example you have a shop in Goldendale. That shop has a higher reimbursement rate than here in the Portland metro area. Fair? No I don't think so. But we have to live with it. I say doctors get used to it, it is the way it works.

timerick — December 6, 2013 at 7:35 a.m. ( | suggest removal

I don't know how any family that is not rich can afford $1,500 a month in Health Insurance in addition to other living expenses. This is completely crazy! No middle class salary level can afford that without going bankrupt eventually.

People need to play the russian rulette by being in top notch shape, Exercise, Eat nutritiously and hope that they don't get sick, have a chronic disease or suffer an accident.

Crazy!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Stupidly crazy!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Something will happen. Either the prices come down by providing a $hitty insurance, move to another country with socialized medicine or play the odds.

This is beyond stupid. Take the profit out that dumb system, it is about time. Mostly what they are trying to heal at skyrocket costs and profits are preventable diseases due to a sedentary lifestyle. Dumb!

nicepuppy — December 6, 2013 at 7:45 a.m. ( | suggest removal

On a side point.

Has anybody measured the health benefits of mass transportation compared against a blob of fat driving a car, eating a hamburger and fries while at it to get to work's parking lot, take two steps to their work chair, seat all day eating snacks and repeat the process at the end of the working day?

I bet you that mass transportation make people walk a bit, therefore providing a health benefit.

Hey bright idea, drop health insurance rates on people that use mass transportation!!!!! That have to walk a bit, it is better for the body!!!!!!!!!!


nicepuppy — December 6, 2013 at 7:51 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Someday, he will have to choose: do I betray Clark County or ALEC?

manthou — December 6, 2013 at 7:10 a.m.

Not knowing Benton, but given his acceptance and continuation in his cronified position coupled with his threats of lawsuits against those who criticize him, tripled with his antics about demeaning and swearing at fellow women legislators, quadrupled with (isn't his wife suing Kaiser about an uninformed Aids test?) and quintupled from his arrogance and leadership in best guess is he'll follow whatever is in his best financial interests. This ALEC garbage is in part funded by the infamous Koch brothers and has deep pockets.

Sorry to hear about your insurance rates going up-ouch! I hope there is a way you can get as good a coverage for less.

nailingit — December 6, 2013 at 7:53 a.m. ( | suggest removal

manthou — December 6, 2013 at 7:10 a.m.

Yep - It's nuts out there. The roads are slick in spots, but most of the problem is people who cannot drive. You've got people who are afraid of the weather and don't belong on the road today, and other people who are so damned impatient they're taking even bigger risks than usual. A very bad combination. I turned around after checking SR500 and Mill Plain on both freeways and came home - called my boss and said I'll try later.

roger — December 6, 2013 at 7:55 a.m. ( | suggest removal

timerick — December 6, 2013 at 7:35 a.m.

Maybe some plastic/other surgeons will have to defray some Bahama traveling, luxury yacht and new car expenses over time if we go single payer. For this reason and more I don't see it happening anytime soon. I'm all for profit for those who offer services that take much skill and investment in higher ed, but some of these guys pay is insane, and it all trickles down to the middle class consumer base sooner or later.

nailingit — December 6, 2013 at 7:59 a.m. ( | suggest removal

How about a burlap sack tossed into the Columbia? While opposed to animal cruelty (and a donor to operations that fight this), there are always exceptions to any rule. And there's a certain puppy dog....

roger — December 6, 2013 at 7:59 a.m. ( | suggest removal

nailingit: A responsible public servant never would have offered a government job to a political crony by violating hiring process already in place. A responsible political crony would never have accepted such a gift.

Benton, given the content of his angry, defensive personal email to me last month, has a misplaced sense of entitlement to this job. I had hoped he would resign in the wake of the controversy. It will take dragging him out in handcuffs to do that.

manthou — December 6, 2013 at 8:03 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Glad you turned around and came home today, roger. I see that the commute from Vancouver to PDX downtown is about 75 minutes, if one is lucky enough not to get hit.

I have an appointment downtown Vancouver today at 10 and will bundle up and walk.

manthou — December 6, 2013 at 8:10 a.m. ( | suggest removal

timerick — December 6, 2013 at 7:35 a.m.

Insurance is a profit making business; they'll screw the vendor and the customer to increase their own bottom line.

Vehicles in general are a nightmare anymore. I've got about 150 in the fleet at work, and every one of them has had to go back to have warranty work done. We turn them back in when the warranty expires, and most are crap by then. One of the reasons I stick with my Toyota truck - it's got a little over 100K miles, and I figure has another 100-200K left in it.

roger — December 6, 2013 at 8:18 a.m. ( | suggest removal


Stay safe! And for those driving north, my wife had to drive to Longview for work this morning and said it's pretty bad until you get out of Ridgefield. After that pretty clear.

nailingit — December 6, 2013 at 8:20 a.m. ( | suggest removal

You are doing good Roger. A old friend of mine has had Toyota trucks forever. The 3 that he has had all had over 300k on them and were still in good shape when he traded them in.

timerick — December 6, 2013 at 8:33 a.m. ( | suggest removal

manthou — December 6, 2013 at 8:03 a.m.

Cronyism and other shadiness is rampant in government hiring - look at the Bonneville fiasco for a local example. Additionally, many allow deviating from the usual hiring practices to pick up a highly qualified person who meets certain criteria - I've gotten a job myself through the noncompetitive route because of this. I'm thinking Madore, Mielke and Benton figured this applied here too. And despite the fallout, we've yet to see anything more that says this decision will be overturned. EEO cases abound, and if the level of proof to substantiate them isn't clearly met, many will fall by the wayside due to the expense of any legal fight. Further, hiring decisions for higher level managerial jobs are usually quite judgmental in nature; an argument that wanting a fresh, outside perspective to change the focus of an operation is actually a very valid one. This case strikes me as borderline (legally, as opposed to ethically), so I hope the lady who probably should have gotten the job has the stomach and assets to support a long fight.

roger — December 6, 2013 at 8:35 a.m. ( | suggest removal

As I suggested previously, and I'll reiterate, ignore 'it' and it'll most likely get bored and wander off.

I picked (broke up) the frozen pits yesterday.
Mine and the neighbor's horseshoes are sitting beside the woodstove.
A pan full of hot coals under the picnic table makes for a decent heat source ☺
Luckily, Mrs. D has the day off (every other Friday).

Drift — December 6, 2013 at 8:38 a.m. ( | suggest removal

roger: I can see what you are saying and it may be borderline legal in terms of EEO goes.

What I do know: the outcome will depend on who makes the legal call. Benton has made a lot of political enemies who are in power and justice is not blind, no matter what we have been told.

We are only 7 days away from Largent's 60 day tort claim deadline and there has been no executive sessions about this so far on the CC agendas. I had expected them to make a settlement offer to avoid the trial risk.

Greg Ferguson will have had to take this on contingency because the expense of preparing for trial with research and depositions will be over six figures very fast. Maybe the county is hedging their bets.

I have been in the position of having to defend a school district against an EEO complaint before. The plaintiff's attorneys were not so concerned about the final decision the school district team made (it could be compared to the controversial hiring of Benton), but whether or not the school district had followed policies and the law in making the controversial decision.

They kept asking me: "Did you consider this or that? Why did you reject this or that?" As long as I could demonstrate that the team had followed a written process and Federal and state law in a thoughtful manner, the school district did not err.

By the same token, Largent's complaint will be challenged most on Clark County's alleged violation of procedure, policy and the law, not so much on Benton personally or his qualifications.

Time is running out and things are going to heat up again very soon.

manthou — December 6, 2013 at 8:50 a.m. ( | suggest removal

"As doctors become more frustrated with Medicare’s reimbursement rates and rules, many are displaying their dissatisfaction by not treating Medicare patients" --

I think I read recently where the Vancouver Clinic is no longer accepting new Medicare patients. Anyway, it’s been happening for years and is only bound to get worse with the baby boomer generation turning 65. No doubt, this will lead to a series of events, imo, starting with government mandates for health care providers to accept Medicare patients. Now, what happens if someone has their own money to pay for services not covered by Medicare? Will Democrats pass laws making that illegal? My guess is that’s just what will happen, eventually. Distribution of scarce resources and all. And after all, just because someone has money, shouldn’t entitle them to better services than anyone else, or so the thinking will go. Just my prognostication. While some may think that’s very egalitarian and all, it’s actually totalitarian and has nothing to do with living in a supposedly free country.

kn_dalai — December 6, 2013 at 9:12 a.m. ( | suggest removal

kn-dali if it is like the insurance companys I deal with, the providers or doctors sign a agreement to not charge the insured more than what the insurance company is going to pay. It is a enforceable contract.

timerick — December 6, 2013 at 9:29 a.m. ( | suggest removal

goldenoldie — December 6, 2013 at 6:34 a.m

No worries here, my dog takes care of the billy goat bridge type quite well with just one command word in Japanese. With teeth bared will go straight for the jewels.

I'll stay with what I said yesterday, the come back comments more than prove it.

Sad, actually that someone has no life other than to sit online each day and play flame war.
So much to do out there in the community.. volunteer wise, in fact I'm out the door in a few to do my part.
Now for the weekend, I have to come up with 5 different kinds of cookies and make 7 dozen each. I'll make my grandmothers Danish sugar cookies with icing for one kind, Butter Pecan for another, now I just have to come up with 3 more different ones. Maybe a red/white pinwheel or twist the dough and make canes.

All have wonderful day and enjoy the snow!

ELISI — December 6, 2013 at 9:34 a.m. ( | suggest removal

manthou — December 6, 2013 at 8:50 a.m.

One of the wonderful things about the internet is that something you've read can often be found again at a later date. I read the advice at this link several years ago - A reasonably candid assessment of the EEOC complaint process written for employers facing a complaint. I'm somewhat curious as to the legal representation our County Comms have, and whether if they were given this advice our two in question would even follow it.

roger — December 6, 2013 at 10:18 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Just this morning heading doown Kaufman to my fav coffee shop I actually get passed by a small SUV, me going 25 ..Well half way down the street the SUV heads to the side of the road and crucnhes front right wheel. Lady gets out a stares at the car.. Wonder what she was thinking. I pulled over first thing she says.I didn't hit the curb that hard... She had no Insurance or roadside assistance. Long and short tow truck came and a friend picked her up.. People in our area just don't know how to drive in this weather.Stupid is as stupid does, over and over... People out there leave plenty of room..

MRD From yesterday at 2:57 Would you go to Costa Rica or Slovenia for a procedure rather than the US ??

Roger- I have never asked this of anyone but gotta know What studies are you referring to where the Gov admin health costs are just 2%??

vanwadreamer — December 6, 2013 at 10:24 a.m. ( | suggest removal

kn_dalai — December 6, 2013 at 9:12 a.m.

As long as we maintain a health care industry that operates on the profit basis, those who have the ability to pay will always be able to obtain treatment denied the rest of us. I'm not on Medicare yet (a couple of years away), but from my looking into it, if I were to have a decent Medicare supplemental plan, then those who were turning Medicare away would still take me.

Wasn't that recent switch from Southwest Medical Center to Salmon Creek by Kaiser Permanente also tied to some sort of pissing contest over billing rates?

roger — December 6, 2013 at 10:45 a.m. ( | suggest removal

vanwadreamer — December 6, 2013 at 10:24 a.m.

A couple of sites as a starting point. The info originally comes from the CBO, among other sources. And I did make a mistake - that 7% overhead was for privately managed Medicare programs. Insurance companies have a 17-20% overhead (per the links below), and this is considered one of the factors in the rapid increase in health care costs seen over that past several years.

roger — December 6, 2013 at 10:57 a.m. ( | suggest removal

vanwadreamer — December 6, 2013 at 10:24 a.m.

Also, I'm on again/off again thinking of eventually retiring to Costa Rica. The health care system there is very good.

No idea about Slovenia, as I've no desire to go there. It's too cold. (Though actually, I suspect their quality of health care is also quite good if in the right areas.)

roger — December 6, 2013 at 11:15 a.m. ( | suggest removal

roger — December 6, 2013 at 7:55 a.m.

Lucky you that you were able to get back home safe and sound. It's NUTS out there. A relative of mine had to work an early shift before the snow started. He started heading home at 8:30 this morning from the Clackamas area. As of 10:45, he'd made it as far as Mill Plain and still has to drive to Battleground. He has witnessed several light poles along the freeway (I-205) are knocked down, multiple accidents and spin outs, mangled guardrails and barriers...and he had issues on I-205 Bridge as did everyone else. It's definitely a mess out there...and with these subfreezing temps, it's not going away any time soon.

Another concern is this wind. At our home, we've discovered dozens of small branches strewn across the yard. We've watched the wind gusts blow snow off the roofs of houses and have noticed a few whirlwinds filled with snow.

goldenoldie — December 6, 2013 at 11:23 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Roger, the health care system is also very good in Cuba.

kn_dalai — December 6, 2013 at 11:25 a.m. ( | suggest removal


Here's a SHOUT OUT to you, hoping you are keeping warm and comfortable! I hope the winds aren't too bad near your place!

goldenoldie — December 6, 2013 at 11:28 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Drift — December 6, 2013 at 8:38 a.m.

Are you actually going to try to play horseshoes??? In this cold???

btw...I will practice what you've preached...8)))

goldenoldie — December 6, 2013 at 11:30 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Every citizen 65 or older is automatically covered by Medicare. Either by law, or lack of demand (I’m not sure which) medical insurance is not available for this age group.

kn_dalai — December 5, 2013 at 7:13 p.m.

No one is automatically covered by Medicare at 65, but everyone becomes eligible as being 65 is the only requirement. There are 4 parts to Medicare, Part A (in hospital), Part B (doctors, surgeries, tests, supplies), and Part D (drugs). Should someone be referred to any type of specialist or test, it is also paid under part B but the percent paid by Medicare is far less. Hence the complete and total inundation into your mailbox once a year to sign up (and pay for) the percent that Medicare does not cover, and this is offered by Private insurance companies. It's called Part C and has about as many varieties and options as Jelly Bellys. Costs for any plan C is based on individual choices. Part C covers the parts that B & D don't. That part is deducted straight from monthly Social Security checks.

There is no fees or copays through Medicare for Part B with your primary physician. Many physicians do no take medicare patients because they are not taking any new patients at all. But may doctors do not drop patients they've had for years simply because they turn 65. And some physicians decline Medicare patients from the get-go of their practice. This is strictly the doctor's decision. I stayed w/ my physician who takes only those patients who were already with her before 65 and have elected to pay the difference as she is not in the 'network'. Many physicians do this with various insurances. It's the billing and software that influence the decision as much as revenue consideration.

So, who pays? As always, the users who pay....those who paid and then used, those who paid and are using, and those who are paying and will use. And all the costs have been based on components attributed to factors not driven by a profit requirement. The NYT had a article the other day about a stitch...ONE stitch...that cost $500. The cost of healthcare in America is out of control and there are no neat solutions other than single payer, imo. But, not matter how it breaks down, private insurance will always be a factor. As veterans, we have Tricare as our Part C carrier, but the whole Tricare system even for active duty (used to be CHAMPUS) is still just a contractor with civilian insurance providers.

jacjak — December 6, 2013 at 12:13 p.m. ( | suggest removal

"Are you actually going to try to play horseshoes??? In this cold???"

The neighbor and I take pride in our devotion to the game, goldie. Foolish pride, quite possibly, but we pitch in any conditions other than a downpour. I have chemical heaters for my socks. I wear plenty of clothing (that -does- mess with my pitch) and like I said, a pan of coals under the table provides a nice warmth.

-He- doesn't wear gloves. Though I do provide a bucket of warm water for his hands, -I- think he's nuts.

I just knocked the frozen clods around out there (in the pits) again. Shoes will be careening every which way as they strike anything other than a ringer. I'll keep an eye on my little dog.

Game on!

Drift — December 6, 2013 at 1:50 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Hi kids,

Got woke up early this morning. Wifey made it half way to work and turned back when the car in front of her did a 360 into the ditch. I got the pleasure of her company as I took her to work. It was way too early for me to go in so I stopped at Carl's Jr. for a breakfast biscuit and coffee. In my haste leaving, I forgot my cash so I put it on my debit card. The meal was $4.88 and they charged me $1 to use my card. I think that's a little out of line so I won't be going there any more. I hate McDonalds but Burger King will do. Anyway, the all wheel drive and the Les Schwab snow tires (no studs) worked great. All you have to do is keep your head out of your butt and "Bob's your Uncle".

hawkeye — December 6, 2013 at 2:41 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Drift — December 6, 2013 at 1:50 p.m.

Paint the horseshoes orange. Patent the idea. Make a fortune.

The first time I ever saw orange golf balls for playing in the snow, I laughed. I like playing, but there are limits. Then I saw it one snowy morning on Columbia Blvd in Portland at Broadmoor.

jacjak — December 6, 2013 at 2:49 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Thanks Gold. I had to head out at 5:45 this morning and Camas streets and the 14 were brutal, icy as heck. Was tough to make the turn onto 205 S bridge. Then it was all clear sailing, and I had far to go. On way back this afternoon encountered zero prroblems. Back home now and staying inside. The winds up here are something else, watching big trees bend quite low. This will be a very cold, windy night up here. The windchill factor alone will make it feel ten degrees colder. We got 25 degrees outside right now. yea, I am staying put.

luvithere — December 6, 2013 at 3:56 p.m. ( | suggest removal

By the way, anybody got Rhodies? I got a number of them and today they look like they are dying. leaves all folded. Is it the cold or wind? Hate to lose them.

luvithere — December 6, 2013 at 3:58 p.m. ( | suggest removal

hawkeye — December 6, 2013 at 2:41 p.m.

Holy cow! That's 20.5%. At what point do usury laws kick in, I wonder. Hope you have a minute to write Carl Jr corporate to let them know you won't be back.

Hope your, and everyone has a safe afternoon commute. Had only one scheduled thing this AM and it was cancelled, so puttered around the house decking the halls.

jacjak — December 6, 2013 at 4:06 p.m. ( | suggest removal

luvithere — December 6, 2013 at 3:58 p.m.

They do that when it gets cold. It's their way of protecting themselves. Don't worry, it's normal, they will be fine once it warms up a little.

hawkeye — December 6, 2013 at 4:08 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Okay, this is funny...

jacjak — December 6, 2013 at 4:11 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Thanks, Gold. Hand picked and planted each one and quite attached to them

luvithere — December 6, 2013 at 4:16 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Actually luvit, it was hawkeye who gave you the information, although I appreciate you taking note of me and my gardening expertise (such as it is...8)..). Did you know in Oregon and Washington, rhododendrons grow wild...up near Mt. Hood especially (yes, Rhododendron Oregon is named after what grows wild in the woods). You should have great bloomers next spring. Rhodies always seem to react well after cold winters. Must be their survival mechanism.

I wish you well (as well as everyone else) with the weather tonight. I figured you'd have a tough time getting out of your home when venturing out. Hopefully the winds will slack off a bit and you'll have a restful night.

goldenoldie — December 6, 2013 at 4:41 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Drift — December 6, 2013 at 1:50 p.m.

You and your buddy are quite dedicated souls to your sport of choice. Keep warm!

goldenoldie — December 6, 2013 at 4:44 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Thanks Hawk for the tip. :)
Those winds are here to stay, Gold. However, as it feels so good to be cozy and warm when the wind is howling, I expect to sleep extremely well. especially as it is the weekend and no need to get up so darn early. I plan to sleep until 7.30, at least!

luvithere — December 6, 2013 at 4:45 p.m. ( | suggest removal

hawkeye — December 6, 2013 at 2:41 p.m

Holy cow Hawkeye that is ridiculous to charge a $1.00 for your order.

I happened to stop in at Carl's yesterday for lunch on 164th, I just checked my receipt and no extra charge on what I bought. Once in awhile when in the area, I'll stop at the one on 4th Plain, never been charged there either for use of debt card.

ELISI — December 6, 2013 at 4:46 p.m. ( | suggest removal

hawkeye — December 6, 2013 at 2:41 p.m.

For a different hamburger joint, try Wendy's!

-Marijuana In Wendy's Burger Was 'Misplaced' By Employee Amy Seiber: Cops (PHOTO)-

nailingit — December 6, 2013 at 4:54 p.m. ( | suggest removal

I hear ya, luvit. It aches me to think of those who are suffering in this weather. Not only the homeless who haven't a place to go, but also the workers as well as the folks whose homes are less than adequate when it comes to heating their homes. And we can't forget about the critters. It's a good time to keep a close watch on our family pets as they venture outside.

This weather is brutal and it takes its toll. The elderly and the very young are vulnerable to the ills of subfreezing temperatures. I hate to say it...but I think I prefer warmer temps and rain rather than these temps and snow and ice.

An observation...I saw several tree pruning trucks and PUD trucks when I ventured out and about today. I also saw at least 4 trucks and trailers hauling fresh-cut wood.

goldenoldie — December 6, 2013 at 4:58 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Anyone out there know anymore about this? Nailingit, Vawadreamer?????

Two-Thirds Oppose Any ObamaCare Insurer Bailout

The public overwhelmingly opposes any ObamaCare bailout of the insurance industry, the latest IBD/TIPP Poll found, even as the Obama administration is paving the way to do just that.
The survey found that 65% oppose a federal bailout of insurance companies that find their profits hit because not enough young, healthy people sign up for ObamaCare plans.

ELISI — December 6, 2013 at 5:02 p.m. ( | suggest removal

I just went on their web site and told them of my "dislike" of the situation. If they are hurting for money, maybe they should stop sending out so many coupons. Oh well, I WON'T be back. There are so many other places that want my money. Yes, Wendy's, Jack, the King.... No lack of choices.

BTW, this was the store on Hwy 99 by Wally World.

hawkeye — December 6, 2013 at 5:04 p.m. ( | suggest removal

I plan to sleep until 7.30, at least!

luvithere — December 6, 2013 at 4:45 p.m.

Boy Howdy! clear til 7:30, huh? Remember when sleeping in meant anything after 11am on a Sat.? I do....vaguely.

jacjak — December 6, 2013 at 5:06 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Yea jacjakthat was back in the lucky if I keep eyes open until 10.30. No wonder I wake up at 5 or 6.

luvithere — December 6, 2013 at 5:11 p.m. ( | suggest removal

ELISI — December 6, 2013 at 5:02 p.m.

I do know that this publication is a highly controversial right wing publication. So yes, I imagine their poll reflects their views........





nailingit — December 6, 2013 at 5:19 p.m. ( | suggest removal

It's a good time to keep a close watch on our family pets as they venture outside.

goldenoldie — December 6, 2013 at 4:58 p.m.

And the birds, and squirrels too, if inclined. I keep having to thaw out the hummingbird feeder.

jacjak — December 6, 2013 at 5:21 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Much ado about nothing--I've played a lot of golf in the snow, well if once or twice a year for 15 years or so counts, and it's weird. We painted the balls pink, orange, whatever, but usually by the 3rd or 4th hole the snow was long gone. It was down in Georgia, btw. Putting was difficult but local rules, those in our group anyway, pretty much allowed you to do whatever you needed to do to have a chance at sinking a 10 footer. Crazy but fun. Used to play in a nighttime tournament at Lewis River GC. Lighted sticks on the flags, fluorescent balls with compression of 40-you damn near had to scrape 'em off your clubface. They'd always stick one pin in a sand trap so your perfect approach shot was a dud. Wife tumbled a cart into a sand trap, but it was a hoot. Some of the funniest chit I've ever seen happened on a daily-make that a nightly basis. All proceeds went to charity, so nobody really gave a rip. Got hooked up with 3 guys that INSISTED I complete the foursome. We played Gresham CC & some course I can't remember up towards Mt Hood (Rippling River?), but I do remember everything was cold and frozen. When they won't let you tee off until the ground thaws-GO HOME!

mrd — December 6, 2013 at 5:22 p.m. ( | suggest removal

The purge continues:

JohnK — December 6, 2013 at 5:41 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Pete Capell got the Camas City Administrator job! Good for Pete! Hidle's article said that Pete would not comment on why he thinks so many top administrators are leaving Clark County. But he did say this about his new employer:

"I'm really excited," Capell said. "They have a great staff, and they have great people to work with. And it's a pretty stable organization with a good group and a great work environment. And they have a great vision for the future. Camas has just got it all going."

Reading between the lines, I would say that Clark County is everything Camas is not.

luvithere: you are getting a fantastic city administrator. I think he is taking a small pay cut, too. A bargain. :)

manthou — December 6, 2013 at 5:47 p.m. ( | suggest removal

nailingit — December 6, 2013 at 5:19 p.m

Thanks! If you come across it anywhere else with more of a middle of the road..

I was more interested in the "bail out" part.

ELISI — December 6, 2013 at 5:58 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Thanks! If you come across it anywhere else with more of a middle of the road..

I was more interested in the "bail out" part.

ELISI — December 6, 2013 at 5:58 p.m.

That's a tough one ELISI. Middle of the road publications tend not (with exceptions of course) to address the BS right wing conspiracy theories (and there are so many of them) as it's a waste of journalistic time. There is no "bail out". The decidedly left slanted Daily Kos speaks to this.

-Marco Rubio's shiny new Obamacare lie-

nailingit — December 6, 2013 at 6:48 p.m. ( | suggest removal

manthou — December 6, 2013 at 5:47 p.m.

Another one down. :( I'm wondering what this county will look like before Madore loses his next election effort, if he even tries. Rather than suffer a humiliating loss, he might decide not to run claiming God or family has told him not to. (and both could be true!) That 'small still voice' might say, David-you're a total screw up-stop!

nailingit — December 6, 2013 at 6:56 p.m. ( | suggest removal

nailingit: Madore himself has already set the scenario for his self-removal. He has made it very clear that he does not believe that the Commissioner job can be a part time one or one that commands a salary less than its current 6 figure one.

He has made it clear that he favors keeping the current number of commissioners at 3, a strong message to the Freeholders.

If the Freeholders write a new charter that increased the number of commissioners, but does not increase the salary, and if this charter is approved by the voters, I think Madore will use it as an excuse to step aside. And yes, he will cite unnamed family or business issues as the reason.

manthou — December 6, 2013 at 7:15 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Hey, I mentioned the excuses Madore will use quite a while ago. And he will find an excuse.

Say what you want about Camas, but we are doing alright. And yes, we just gained a fine administrator. Thanks, Clark County!

luvithere — December 6, 2013 at 7:42 p.m. ( | suggest removal

According to Cheryl Bledsoe, CRESA, another resignation came in: Lawrence Watters, RTC legal counsel and employee of Clark County prosecuting attorney's office. He advises the Department of Environmental Services, too. Hmmmm.

Erik Hidle is leaving the Columbian at the end of the month. He has just been here a little over a year. Could we blame this on the commissioners, too?

manthou — December 6, 2013 at 8:11 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Assuming Madore, for one is capable of seeing reality, two, understanding it, and three, caring about it.

I'd cite characters like Santorum, Paul and Bachman as examples, but there's much to line their pockets with at that level, not so much in Clarkistan. Maybe he'll go for the gold and try for Congress.

He'd fit right in.

Bummer about Erik Hidle.

nailingit — December 6, 2013 at 8:17 p.m. ( | suggest removal

If you ask me, I would have fired them all as a matter of principle. That organization is corrupt. When the top dog spends more than two decades in a job, that is sufficient time to create a team, a culture often in detriment of taxpayers. No new ideas, our way or the highway. That was Barron's way. It amazes to me that the new CC Administrator came to be from within.

These people are not abandoning ship because of Madore or Mielke, it is because the honey is gone. New eyes are looking at what they are doing. i am not saying that the three stooges are good eyes, just new eyes.

I would disassemble that whole government office and start new. Like private industry have ISO standards where you have to document everything, I would do the same with County government. Standardize all processes and no job to exist more than 4 years. After 4 years your time in local government is up and you need to get another job and let another citizen grab the helm after some training. Change is a constant and change is good. it is broken and needs to be fixed in total transparency besides a very critical look at "return on taxpayer investment" that area is non existent. Why? There is no incentive for improvement of processes.

But that is me, and nobody wants to be like me. I fix it once and right!

nicepuppy — December 6, 2013 at 8:33 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Believe or not, this puppy is watching Trinity Broadcasting System with a shine the light eye as we speak...........


ACA must include some serious mental care for these people....they are completely brain washed. They are so well trained that is scary. I could not understand people talking so much and dedicating so much of their time and energy in something that you can't touch! It is like vaporware and wheel spinning...

I feel truly sorry for them. Jesus Christ is coming....okay...he comes and? Welcome to hell Jesus! Have a beer...errrrrr maybe two and a couple of chasers! ;)

nicepuppy — December 6, 2013 at 8:44 p.m. ( | suggest removal

nailingit — December 6, 2013 at 6:48 p.m

Thanks again for your input and the link. When I come across things and can't find much about them, sometimes it takes another to find.

ELISI — December 6, 2013 at 9:10 p.m. ( | suggest removal

I could not understand people talking so much and dedicating so much of their time and energy in something that you can't touch!

nicepuppy — December 6, 2013 at 8:44 p.m.

Really? Since when couldn't you touch TAX FREE MONEY? That's what it's all about.

hawkeye — December 6, 2013 at 11:21 p.m. ( | suggest removal

We didn't pitch yesterday. The neighbor had to work.

Painting the shoes for play in the snow really wouldn't help in finding them. My (custom-mail-order-catalogue) shoes weigh 2 lbs. 7 oz. Should they wind up in the snow the odds of them being at the bottom of the depression is slim. The tend to slide across the frozen ground, under the snow. At that point it takes probing with a pole to locate them (it).

'Course, the easiest way to find a shoe is to wrap it around the stake.

Just off of the 3200 block of Fourth Plain it's currently 23F with calm winds.

Drift — December 7, 2013 at 6:23 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Great observation Hawk, you had me laughing hard....ain't that the truth. Thinking of starting my own new religion and get some perks.....LOL

*** Bark of the Day ***

Here we go with the stupid mug again Lou B. The "psychological" problem with your mug is that it implies that the owner has a self entitled aura of righteousness. So humility takes a step to the side. People may think...okay, you have the stupid cup, what makes Youuuuuu perfect or less stupid? After all you bought the stupid mug, aren't ya stupid to start with? Hehehehehe


On a side note, what is it with Ann Rivers nose? Was she in the boxing field prior to politics? I man no harm or offense, just curious.... Don't let the other gender pit bulls out, I am just curious, it hits me at first sight, wazzup with dat nose!!!!!!!!!! ;)

*** Howl of the Day ***

Thank God for music. A language that everybody can relate to, it makes people go through a range of emotions, it unites people, it makes them smile or cry or be in awe, color makes no difference and feeds the soul. Shouldn't we make music a religion and the music that set people in a higher "trance" it could be categorized as being closer to the God guy? Where all the emotions and movement meet and unified the rest of the world? Isn't that what is all about? To reach a certain stage of inner evolution? We now money is not where is at, or bridges, or light rail, or a 9-5 idiotic enslaving job where to get to eat you may die on an iced highway so you don't loose your job or get written up?

Think about it. We got it all wrong. We created a nightmare. An unsustainable nightmare manufacturer of sadness and hopelessness. Emptiness!

I was watching some documentaries of some Americans that moved to Mexico in the last stage of their lives. You ought to listen to them and how they enjoy a simpler life, a slower live, a live in the present life and if it does not get done today, well, tomorrow is a good day to do it as well if it ever comes....

Later kids! ;)


nicepuppy — December 7, 2013 at 6:25 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Madore deigned to pay a personal visit to the YWCA recently and then gave it his public FB "blessing."

Both Madore and Mielke keep using the term "blessed" in reference to their seal of approval as in, this: "We gave this program our blessing." Or this: "We blessed that resolution yesterday." Even more appalling, CC staff seem to have adopted this noun now: "Yes, commissioners, you blessed that new hire last week."

I feel like sending both men a mitre and scepter and maybe a little holy water and incense, just to round out the role play.

manthou — December 7, 2013 at 7 a.m. ( | suggest removal

manthou — December 7, 2013 at 7 a.m.

Get the beads out and give us 10 Hail Madores, please.

roger — December 7, 2013 at 7:36 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Lou, I'm thinking you're getting a little carried away with your promotion of that mug. I'm almost wondering if you aren't trying to adjunct your salary with the sales. Has Campbell been talking pay cuts?

Your repeated marketing of the thing is near embarrassing. Just because the Columbian is a little backwater paper it doesn't mean its editor should behave like Barney Fife. Please sir, a little professionalism, if you please.

Don't do stoopid.

Drift — December 7, 2013 at 7:53 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Just looking at the FB comments following Madore's 'blessing' of people and organizations in his capacity as a County Commissioner, it's apparent he believes himself to be the County's Chief Administrator as well as its Spiritual Leader. There will never be a shortage of egos or ego stroking among politicians and their followers, but there's something seriously abnormal and cultish about the adoration and religiosity of comments left by his administrative assistant, Anna Miller, following his various pronouncements.

JohnK — December 7, 2013 at 8:25 a.m. ( | suggest removal

I feel like sending both men a mitre and scepter and maybe a little holy water and incense, just to round out the role play.

manthou — December 7, 2013 at 7 a.m.

Tribunal Inquisitioners wore one, or both, and usually some sort of authoritarian robes, or some version of all three. Actually, the Catholic Church still has a Inquisition, which is an ecclesiastical institution for fighting heresy.

And, the Pagans and Wiccans say 'blessed' also. They think the word carries magical energies...a Power Word, and part of their sacred language. There are other power words, and most religions have them. 'Blessed Be' is also hello or goodbye, and luck. 'Blessed' is always used as a positive in Pagan and Wiccan. Perhaps Madore is closet Wiccan.

jacjak — December 7, 2013 at 8:27 a.m. ( | suggest removal

The school closures mentioned at the top of the main forums page, are those for today or yesterday? Are any related to yesterday's bogus robo call?

Drift — December 7, 2013 at 9:09 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Drift — December 7, 2013 at 6:23 a.m.

Man, You have a heat wave at Fourth Plain. It was 16F when I took my cat out for his morning porch sitting constitutional in Lakeshore area twenty minutes ago, and has climbed to 17F since. At least that's what my air/heat wall thingy says.

nailingit — December 7, 2013 at 9:12 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Looking forward to exorcising M&M;'s out of office in future elections.

nailingit — December 7, 2013 at 9:17 a.m. ( | suggest removal

jacjak @ 8:27 am: LOL. That's right! I remember now......Problem is, Madore and Mielke use the term to self-elevate. They wouldn't recognize a positive intentional thought for the greater good if it bit them both on the rear.

Blessed Be, all. :)

manthou — December 7, 2013 at 9:24 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Balmy 22 here but at least those winds have stopped. Sun is shining brightly, and I managed to stay in bed until 7.50. Day is shaping up well!

luvithere — December 7, 2013 at 10:12 a.m. ( | suggest removal

*** Second Bark of the Day! ***

I don't know about you but I have a bad feeling about the President and ex Presidents going to Mandela's funeral. I think that it is a stupid idea to have in one place our living ex Presidents. A sitting duck target for our enemies.

Secondly, I understand Mandela, that he was jailed, that he was president of South Africa, end of apartheid, etc. But if you stop to think about many have given their life and limb of our own to protect an idea and country and never get or got the recognition they deserve. They usually came in the middle of the night in a cargo plane for us NOT TO SEE. I think that is shitty!

Mandela did not give his life for his cause. Think about it.... In my eyes, he is several steps below, any hero that gave his/her life for a cause.

That is my opinion and the one who doesn't like it, well, go buy Lou's cup or bless Madonis style his stupid actions.

A come Ann Miller brown noses so much? Doesn't she have any dignity? It is all about money isn't it? Somebody hires you...get the knee pads out baby.... Ridiculous, sick and not blessed at all! I bet you Josephine must be red with envy that she did not get the job....LOL

nicepuppy — December 7, 2013 at 10:22 a.m. ( | suggest removal

The Walk and Knock thing is a nice cause, but the timing is wrong. If canned goods are placed outside in freezing temperatures, the contents may freeze and end up breaking the seal. The food inside can become spoiled and harmful to consume. They ought to move the thing up a month or so.

kn_dalai — December 7, 2013 at 10:35 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Good point, kn. that way they would also get more attention as right now everybody is flooded with pleas for money, food, toys.
We just contributed heavily to Stuff the Bus, our local high school food drive that keeps two east county food places supplied.

By the way, we volunteered two years ago for Walk and Knock and were unfortunately assigned to a rich neighborhood. The stinginess of the folks was horrible. They either refused to give, gave old, leftover crap, had no time to look for food, or even refused to open door. We were truly discouraged. When we all met up, it turned out the low income neighborhoods in Washougal contributed the most. Volunteers shared stories and quite a few had the same experience we had.
Not saying that all well off people refused, but it was so blatant. Put a real dent in our day for sure. maybe we just got the cul de sac of idiots.

luvithere — December 7, 2013 at 10:44 a.m. ( | suggest removal

By the way, where are the FB comments re blessings and Madore to be found?

luvithere — December 7, 2013 at 11:07 a.m. ( | suggest removal

kn_dalai — December 7, 2013 at 10:35 a.m.

We thought the same thing so drove ours by the drop off at Wy' East Middle School while going to Les Schwaub. Lots of cars loaded with bags and so many volunteers, mostly teens (grin), unloading them.
The only lane that was designated for those not part of the W&K; efforts was blocked by a guy in a pickup. After we waited behind him for about 5 min, hubby asked that if he was waiting for someone could he pull up a bit, and the guy said something like 'I block things. I like to block things. I block everything I can', and then drove off and totally left the property. Weird.

Don't think the drop is for guys like us, but jars of peanut butter and cans of Bush vegatarian beans sitting on the front steps (cement gets even colder, right?) didn't seem like a great idea.

jacjak — December 7, 2013 at 11:11 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Interesting opinion piece in the NYT regarding charitable deductions.

jacjak — December 7, 2013 at 11:18 a.m. ( | suggest removal

luvithere: The "blessings" use is evident by listening to the Board time audio weekly. It has become a favorite and over-used short hand code word substitute for "approved" and has increased over time. It is not on a FB page. Just my observations from listening every week.

Madore's visit to the YWCA, a beneficiary of Clark County funds, is described on his personal FB page. Probably making sure they don'r refer women to evil Planned Parenthood.

manthou — December 7, 2013 at 11:58 a.m. ( | suggest removal

That explains it, Manthou.
Was on his FB page for two minutes. Wow.
The crap in Washougal continues also about supporting a non profit who hands out info about a non profit medical group who might or might not hand out info to groups who might provide abortion services. Council man Shoemaker now denies this is the reason he wants to defund but at the same time he keeps going on about the abortion issue. Wants them to talk only about a religious pregnancy crisis center.
Sad, really. Happens when you don't keep track of your own words.

luvithere — December 7, 2013 at 12:10 p.m. ( | suggest removal

luvithere — December 7, 2013 at 11:07 a.m.

jacjak — December 7, 2013 at 11:18 a.m.

A good article and worth the read. The conservative notion that community should always provide for the needy instead of government, has never panned out and never will. Usually those who denounce government's role in providing such services are less likely to reach into their own pockets to help. Not only hypocrisy to the max, but it's the old, "I've got mine, screw everyone else" attitude that's so prevalent in today's society, and more times than not, a hot button issue on the right side of our political spectrum.

There's a nasty spirit nowadays with this "leftist","welfarism" & "socialism" speak. Whether it be about food, social and medical services, whatever, it's pervasive and ugly. Many times, just misers cloaking themselves in decades old Russian Rand type ideology to justify greed predicated on a false sense of superiority and intellect. IMO of course.....

///Why the Rich Don't Give to Charity///

The wealthiest Americans donate 1.3 percent of their income; the poorest, 3.2 percent. What's up with that?

One of the most surprising, and perhaps confounding, facts of charity in America is that the people who can least afford to give are the ones who donate the greatest percentage of their income. In 2011, the wealthiest Americans—those with earnings in the top 20 percent—contributed on average 1.3 percent of their income to charity. By comparison, Americans at the base of the income pyramid—those in the bottom 20 percent—donated 3.2 percent of their income. The relative generosity of lower-income Americans is accentuated by the fact that, unlike middle-class and wealthy donors, most of them cannot take advantage of the charitable tax deduction, because they do not itemize deductions on their income-tax returns.

But why? Lower-income Americans are presumably no more intrinsically generous (or “prosocial,” as the sociologists say) than anyone else. However, some experts have speculated that the wealthy may be less generous—that the personal drive to accumulate wealth may be inconsistent with the idea of communal support. Last year, Paul Piff, a psychologist at UC Berkeley, published research that correlated wealth with an increase in unethical behavior: “While having money doesn’t necessarily make anybody anything,” Piff later told New York magazine, “the rich are way more likely to prioritize their own self-interests above the interests of other people.”

Read more @

nailingit — December 7, 2013 at 1:17 p.m. ( | suggest removal

jacjak, luvithere, nailingit: Interesting theories on charitable giving.

Here's one concept that always impresses me: The highest form of charity is charity that is given anonymously, without any expectation of thanks or for getting credit.

manthou — December 7, 2013 at 1:24 p.m. ( | suggest removal

People, people, please do a little research.....Blessing is a "magic word" for evangelicals..they use it a lot and for a reason..lookie here...

If you are not blessed, then you need to be "exorcised"!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ::::: Add primal scream here :::::


nicepuppy — December 7, 2013 at 1:25 p.m. ( | suggest removal

And here my beloved legs to piss the kicker, the icing on the cake....""the master plan" so to speak by these "fundamentalists" taking over our local governments and other governments across the nation and the world....

See, the more isolated you are....the more controllable you are, the more vulnerable you are....

Bless you my beloved piss on legs... ;)

Madonis is a puppet of a greater cause....nothing more...nothing less... The issue is, are you going to submit or show him the state simple as that...

nicepuppy — December 7, 2013 at 2:02 p.m. ( | suggest removal

looking for anything from the top 1%? don't. it's ironic some folks subscribe to the "trickle down" effect and the "job creator" status, but can't see how that tilts the table towards the wealthy so the wealth gets re-distributed their way, ie, dreaded socialism.

mrd — December 7, 2013 at 2:13 p.m. ( | suggest removal

nailingit — December 7, 2013 at 1:17 p.m

Might also read these..

Giving Differently: Liberals and Conservatives Have Radically Different Views Of Charity

The Most Generous States: Republican and Religious

Study finds less religious states give less to charity

ELISI — December 7, 2013 at 2:26 p.m. ( | suggest removal

manthou — December 7, 2013 at 1:24 p.m

Pretty much same as what the Bible teaches..

Matthew 6:2-4

2 “So when you give to the poor, do not sound a trumpet before you, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, so that they may be honored by men. Truly I say to you, they have their reward in full. 3 But when you give to the poor, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, 4 so that your giving will be in secret; and your Father who sees what is done in secret will reward you.

ELISI — December 7, 2013 at 2:30 p.m. ( | suggest removal

mrd @ 2:13 PM: I have seen that video before. Very instructive visuals to drive home the point. What a skewed bell on that curve!

Drift @ 7:53 am: I think Brancaccio's cup promotion is a brilliant way to forge a renewed alliance with the Columbian's fan base and the journalists who produce this local daily. For instance, today he told readers he would be in the office for two hours and would be selling cups. Well over a hundred people showed up to chat and buy one! What a great way to meet your readers.

Is this really about hawking cheap ceramic mugs? Nope. It is about connecting with the community and nurturing a relationship with people who are the ones most likely to be loyal supporters of local journalism. The Columbian has found a catchy phrase that has united so many of us with its mission to police our politicians. I'd rather be cheering my newspaper on, as opposed to vilifying it. Anyway, I think it's kinda neat.

Lou B: I think there is a presentation in this experience somewhere for you at a future ASNE conference. Hope you taking notes and lots of photos. :)

manthou — December 7, 2013 at 2:49 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Manthou, here is two more to "look" at;

Rainbow Massage, Huijun Zhu, owner, 3811 H St., foot massage

Zhenhong Foot Spa, Zhenhong Wang, owner, 212 N.E. 164th Ave., Suite 3.

hawkeye — December 7, 2013 at 3:59 p.m. ( | suggest removal

hawkeye: Yeah. The one on H Street was closed for a couple of weeks after the VanPD paid them a visit and shut them down. It has opened today with a new name. This is the third name at this location in a year. At least two owners. Possibly a new one. There are several on Fourth Plain and one, god forbid, in pristine Camas.

The property manager for 3811 H Street is a pillar of the commercial real estate community here and has been made aware that this business really is. Landlords and property managers, therefore, profit from human trafficking, too, when they collect rent. The police may be able to go after these folks if there are enough law violations by the tenants. They have been charging landlords with crimes on chronic drug houses.

manthou — December 7, 2013 at 5:41 p.m. ( | suggest removal

hawkeye — December 7, 2013 at 3:59 p.m.

Sounds like there’s a need for some hands on investigation here. I've every confidence that you'll be up to the job.

kn_dalai — December 7, 2013 at 5:43 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Here is my coffee cup....

Sip up, Coffee, Alcohol, Tobacco and Cocaine are addictive drugs. The cost per unit is near nothing and the profit margin are horrendous, nearly 95% for a cup of coffee. You make a killing out of the zombie and you got him for life. Weeeeeeee! Madonis has a coffee business within US Digital, didn't ya know? One out of tree at that profit margin level ain't bad!

Jeez Manthou, are you begging for a Columbian job? So not you!!!!! Erick is gone, here here Mr. Lou!!!!!!! LOL Actually, i would like you to get a job there. You would be really good.

Charity is not a good option. A family wage job packed with on going training is what Jesus was talking about. Charity only increases dependency. The deed is to make a nobody into a somebody if you have the ability and resources to do so.

About the foot massage shops......yar papers pleeesee......

nicepuppy — December 7, 2013 at 6:18 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Is Vancouver City Council saying much of anything about the planned Tesoro operation at the Port? If so, I'm not seeing it in the news. You'd think that when Gramor voiced their displeasure with the proposed plan a couple of months ago, they'd have started beating the war drums. Never a dull moment with that part of town.

You think with this weather people have seen just how cold it gets along the river and decided that Waterfront project isn't such a bright idea?

roger — December 7, 2013 at 8:03 p.m. ( | suggest removal

kn_dalai — December 7, 2013 at 5:43 p.m.

Well, there's only so much "footwork" my Wife will allow. You are welcome to join in the investigation. Maybe you will get a "happy ending".

hawkeye — December 7, 2013 at 11:07 p.m. ( | suggest removal

*** Bark of the Day! ***

Ridiculous! It won't work! What? Paying to read or write in this rag? Are you freaking kidding me? All relevant news are free and all over the air waves. Isn't it enough with all these junk advertisement we are subject and tortured with day in and day out?

How many times "we" bring the news before even The Columbian wakes up of its nap and reports it? Why? Because we are the news seekers and the news alerts come in even unsolicited.

It won't work and the dummies that pay, just have to much money to spend. Nobody's like us get the news for free, comment for free and call out the culprits as we find their dirty deeds like no other even your rag.

We are the news Campbell! Without us, you would be 100 years behind. It is time for a slice of humble pie and give credit where credit is due. Free subscriptions for the daily contributors, all other dummies must pay...LOL

Sorry, no can do! No that stupid, that is a stupid move and you deserve your stupid cup! It fits you good!


nicepuppy — December 8, 2013 at 6:21 a.m. ( | suggest removal

The Columbian just announced their , "Don't Do Stupid Stuff" move of the century.

ELISI — December 8, 2013 at 6:59 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Elisi, on the other hand, they are struggling financially like other papers. Look at the reduced home delivery of the Oregonian. While I also rather have no fee attached, I am not sure what the solution should be.

luvithere — December 8, 2013 at 7:11 a.m. ( | suggest removal

There is no solution because information due to technology, information is not a reserved commodity for the big money people anymore so they can sell it. As soon as the citizen got www access, communication with others around the world and a camera at its disposal on the go plus the posting of what he is seeing as it happens.

People just don't have money to spend when they can get the stuff for free. being assaulted by commercial pop ups is torture enough. They want to follow the cable model which will fail as well. Pay for a monthly subscription, on top of that get commericals in the content and on top of that have premium viewing at a cost. Three layers of stream revenue at the expense of the poor slob that his wage is smaller and smaller with time.

The Columbian is crazy stupid, it will fail. I would like to know who would pay a dime to get the Columbian on line. It will be like the Obamacare the first week.

Not even with a gun to my head I would pay a dime for something I can get for free everywhere. Didn't Murdock try this with his online newspaper newscorp? He failed miserably and lost 30 mil a year...weeeeeeeeeeeeeee

Don't do stupid stuff will bite then on the a$$! My few pennies will stay where they are at. Bank on it!

nicepuppy — December 8, 2013 at 7:39 a.m. ( | suggest removal

We woke up with no heat in a newish, year old furnace this morning: the condensate drain line outside has frozen. Ugh. I can wait for the thaw, spend hours outside with a hair dryer, or cut the drain line and put it in a bucket.
kn_dalai: There is always much sniggering and chortling about these "body rub" services, but, behind the snorts and guffaws, are foreign women who are modern-day slaves. There are plenty of women who perform this service willingly for a fee. But these Asian girls have had their passports confiscated and are relying on this massive organized crime ring for their food, shelter, clothing and lives. The police view them as victims. So do many of us. Most of the public information has not caught up with the reality of this abusive work situation yet, but the facts are getting out there slowly.
Elisi: Here's the thing about The Columbian and its importance to us. I prefer to live in a community that regards its newspaper with pride, something that we anticipate reading every day and is the source of many informative discussion (just look what happens here every day). If what we read in our local daily motivates us to do something about our world and participate in making it better, well, it will have done its job to inform us and stimulate us to action. It is a partnership. It is interactive. That's what those silly little cups really symbolize.
Democracy is not a spectator sport.

If I seem a little crabby and preachy for a Sunday morning, just remember I awoke to a frozen hundred-year old house. My apologies.

manthou — December 8, 2013 at 7:50 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Besides, this website design has serious performance issues, especially with this captcha add on that is a nightmare!

On the positive side, great way to get rid off nicepuppy! He ill go piss somewhere else....have no doubt. I love you guys but I adapt fast to changes....

Indeed the local issues are important and so is calling out the crooks in office but there are many roads that get you to Rome so to speak...

On the other hand, Madonis spelled out what he has done to a facebook commenter. There is no stopping on his ego one liners. He claims to be all for shining the light on stuff. Well, why don't we shine the dollars and cents light on his claims? His main problem is that he thinks that we have the IQ of an Evangelist church goer and contributor which is near zero.

I think that this guy believes the unemployment figures and due to his ideas he may think that Clark County is having full employments right now....

I celebrate his "enthusiasm" but when you lie to validate your bull$hit, you end up like a buffoon.

I wonder what Stuart has to say about Madonis claims. He may start to realize he hasn't done anything since Madonis got wrongly elected. Now that is a dishonest way to make a buck. Do nothing and make a buck at the expense of taxpayers. Otherwise Stuart would have his accomplishments list like Madonis have, no?

The rotten smell of corruption is making me sick. How did we get here...what went wrong? Why are we so stooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooopid?

nicepuppy — December 8, 2013 at 7:53 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Bummer manthou. I hope you have some space heaters, fireplace or something to warm up with. My wall thing readout said 14F this morning. Good luck!

nailingit — December 8, 2013 at 8:04 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Manthou, stay warm. I am supplementing the heat pump with propane fireplace. Awfully cold around here. And blast the manufacturer and installer first thing tomorrow.

luvithere — December 8, 2013 at 8:25 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Oh good must be the subfreezing temperatures attacking my brain this morning!!! For once, I actually agree with the Pups in regards to paying for online news. I think it's a mistake by the Columbian, but who am I to tell Mr. Campbell that his attempts this time around will not keep their business afloat? Maybe Mr. Lou's coffee mugs will sell big this holiday season...8)

Sad...truly sad, that greed has played a part in everyday the point that information which should be readily available to us at no comes at a cost beyond what we pay for internet, our computers AND the software that prevents idiots from stealing our identity...but I guess that's life as it is presented to us.

Well folks, when it's come to that point where we must pay in order to access the order to share our given right as citizens to voice our opinions and to share hints and ideas with each other, I will be absent. I want to say now...ahead of time... it's been enjoyable and sometimes quite a challenge sharing opinions with the best of what the Columbian followers have to offer and I wish you all the best. Till that time though...I'll still remain, putting my two-cents' worth.

goldenoldie — December 8, 2013 at 8:29 a.m. ( | suggest removal

manthou — December 8, 2013 at 7:50 a.m.

I was expecting your admonition manthou, and you’re right of course about the slavery issue. I have no idea how many of these girls are being held in slavery, but that’s the issue that needs to be confronted. Just the same, massage can be therapeutic and legitimate. They obviously have business licenses from the city of Vancouver, for example. You saw the article in the Columbian recently. I noticed that the names of 26, or something, men were published as having been arrested. Given what I’ve just stated, unless they were caught in the act or admit to wrong doing, I’m wondering how one can be arrested for patronizing a business license-issued establishment, other than law enforcement making assumptions. Maybe some dolphins are being caught in the tuna net.

kn_dalai — December 8, 2013 at 8:30 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Oh manthou...I hope you regain heat in your home this morning. It's just too bitter cold!!!

Luvit...good to hear you weathered those nasty bone-chiller winds of the gorge.

Nails...our official low at our house this morning (digital thermometer matched the old standby mercury thermometer) was 9 degrees before it began warming to a balmy 12 degrees.

ELISI...I agree with your 6:29am comment. It is stupid stuff, but I guess desperate times call call for desperate measures...although we have 29 times to access the forum before they ask us to pay, lol. Guess we'll have to "cram it all in......" lololololol.

goldenoldie — December 8, 2013 at 8:34 a.m. ( | suggest removal

oops... that's "your 6:59am comment." I tell's the cold weather, lololol.

goldenoldie — December 8, 2013 at 8:35 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Manthou I am on your side with the news thing. I take the printed edition as well as use the online version. I like them both. It will be interesting to see what the cost for the online version will be. I understand they can't keep giving this away. Puppy I understand your point but most people don't pay much attention to the online adds. I know I don't. I believe I will still keep the online. I get to much out of it to let it go. I hope most on here will do the same. This place puts some very interesting thoughts out here and I would hate to lose any of you. You to puppy. How do the rest of you guys feel?

timerick — December 8, 2013 at 8:39 a.m. ( | suggest removal

I am willing to pay some for complete online access. I understand they need to make money to stay in business.
But it depends. The monthly rate for this paper is already very steep, IMO.

luvithere — December 8, 2013 at 8:51 a.m. ( | suggest removal

timerick: I know many folks think The Columbian is biased. But I think it does a good job of bird-dogging all politicians, as it should. I have the digital subscription, in anticipation that there will be a paywall someday. I don't want to live in a community that does not have a healthy, independent newspaper. Even alt-weeklies are dying fast and we need to support our relationship with our small-town newspaper. I am evangelical about it.

People forget that there are procedures in place to request corrections and clarifications of The Columbian, if they believe they have been the victims of irresponsible journalism.

So, when politicians like Benton, Mielke and Madore keep complaining about unfair or inaccurate news stories from The Columbian, why have they not used the procedures available to them to get a correction? I don't feel sorry for them if they don't make the effort to demonstrate where the errors lie so that The Columbian can correct the record.

manthou — December 8, 2013 at 8:58 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Mornin', manthou.
Bummer about the heat. Hopefully you got it going again (or something). It was 16F on my back porch at 0500.

I suppose we'll agree to disagree on the cup thing. You see it as reaching out to the public. I see it as a cheap carnival trick. So be it. Speaking of, though... Ironic isn't it? I joked about Lou's wages being cut and Campbell turns around and tells us he needs to make a dime or two off of this web gig. Heh.

Newspapers have never been free. A newspaper company is just that; a company, a business. There's nothing in the Bill of Rights that reads the citizens shall get their news for free. And to go off on a bit of a tangent: Nothing says a news agency must report fairly and unbiased. Out and out lies are verboten, but everyone has a slant. If I didn't accept that I would complain about the Columbian's attack on M&M; and Benton. Who was it coined the "M&M;" thing? Was the package of candies, with their photo (at the top of Lou's article), fair and unbiased? Hardly. And I'm not a Madore/Mielke fan. Not by a long shot.

Though I have the 'hard copy' delivered every morning it would bum me to lose this web version. After reading my dead tree edition I enjoy checking out the various comments to the articles and letters. And, of course, there's hanging out here with you guys, too. It's Campbell's ball and bat. He'll do whetever the heck he wants. I wish him luck.

And I'll take what my well be my last opportunity to proselytize:

Try to stay warm, folks. Don't forget your pipes. This cold spell should break in the next few days.

Drift — December 8, 2013 at 9:07 a.m. ( | suggest removal

I can't believe Manthou and Luvithere will pay to read and post on this site. I read the comments on the FB site and some are willing to pay as well.

Their standards seem to be very low or they have more money than to do with. Good for you, throw away your money. It is yours after all. I have better ideas what to do with money, way better.

In my opinion when a news organization assaults you with a pop advertisement on your face, it is already raping you blind.

Me doesn't like this raping way in hell! It ain't gonna happen! Don't expect 9 lives or anything of that sort. It will be over! Done! Finito! Let the fools pay for something you can get for free.

Murdock tried, are the locals here more "stupid" than Murdock customers...well it appears to be...

nicepuppy — December 8, 2013 at 9:14 a.m. ( | suggest removal

kn_dalai: Getting a nasty dig in at hawkeye was more important to you than editing your words. I get that about you. Happy to help educate you, nonetheless. Don't be too hard on yourself. You are in good company. If you choose to participate here, you are likely to get some uncomfortable feedback once in awhile.

manthou — December 8, 2013 at 9:15 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Drift: Diversity of opinion is what makes it fun to participate on here, Cap'n. You are always civil when you disagree.

I imagine that, if there ever is a paywall here, all print subscribers will have access to the web version, Drift.

To change the subject to the one you know more about on here than anyone else: did you catch the BOCC citizen comments from those persons who are applying to grow cannabis last week? If you didn't, try to check it out when you have time. No one trusts the county to get it right and there is much money on the line. One guy needs to build a special storage/processing barn in Washougal and is worried about not getting the needed permits. It seems that Clark County is being very cautious and restrictive with the medical MJ needs, too.

manthou — December 8, 2013 at 9:24 a.m. ( | suggest removal

A nasty dig? Good gawd manthou, all you ever see is the worst. Perception manthou. Bias affects perception and extreme bias affects perception extremely. I really do hope you will someday understand just how much that applies to you.

kn_dalai — December 8, 2013 at 9:29 a.m. ( | suggest removal

luvithere — December 8, 2013 at 8:25 a.m.

When they installed our heat pumps (two) they warned us they can be iffy in really cold weather, zero or below, and advised us to keep the wall heaters in place as emergency backup instead of ripping them out like I wanted. The outside unit is on the south side, and the condensation lines are on the west and in the garage. So far no problem, knock on wood.

Got my first seed catalog in the mail a few weeks ago. Set it aside til after the holidays, but may have to get it out just to think warmer thoughts. Better yet, bake something... maybe white chocolate macadamia nut cookies.

jacjak — December 8, 2013 at 9:35 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Everybody meet at jacjak's for cookies today! We will be over the minute you report the cookies are done.

We have only the heat pump. Very grateful for that propane fire place should we lose electricity....

Pup, the C is a business. They can't give it away for free. In order to stay in biz, they might need to charge us. Do I like it? No. Do I understand it? Yes.

BUT. Captcha needs to be simplified before I pay.

luvithere — December 8, 2013 at 9:47 a.m. ( | suggest removal

The main reason I keep the hard copy subscription is because the website has been free, and because I feel I should pay something to help support it. As I said under the article, I don't subscribe for the news because it's "old" - I can usually get through the paper in under 5 minutes and end up working the sudoku puzzle to finish waking up. If I have to pay extra for the web version, then the hard copy will most probably get cancelled.

Unfortunately, I doubt The Forum will survive. We'll see.

The Columbian has issues that I don't think we're entirely aware of. Why did Liz Hovde move to The Oregonian, just to be another of many barely read opinion piece writers? Why did Andrea Damewood (arguably the best this paper has seen in the past 15 years), move on to WWeek? Why did John Laird retire? (He said he was walking away, but I've seen his post on a couple of facebook pages - he's still engaged and has more to say.) Why is Erik Hidle moving on when he's building a pretty decent portfolio covering the County Comms and Benton hiring? Is Editor Lou truly a controlling tyrant (as we had someone try to tell us here about a year ago), or is there more to the picture?

roger — December 8, 2013 at 9:59 a.m. ( | suggest removal

kn_dalai — December 8, 2013 at 9:29 a.m.

I didn't take it as any kind of a dig, more of a joke. No biggie.

Manthou, sorry about your heat pump, must be a low spot in the pipe. Mine has been running non-stop since I got up. Probably start a fire after I get home.

As for the "pay for paper" online version, I guess it will depend on the cost. In the article he said that those that take the "paper" version will get a discount. Well, I don't. It's way too expensive for what it is. They take it at work and I can read it there if I want. Maybe if they bring the price inline with the Oregonian, but maybe not. I guess I just haven't decided yet. One thing's for sure, if I have to pay for it online, they better allow me to comment. Seems like those rules would have to change.

hawkeye — December 8, 2013 at 10:05 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Concerning heat pumps and are screwed. I had one for 15 years and replaced it once with an inndustrial size unit because it was a big house. When it got this cold and with gorge winds, it was a POS. I recommend that you get a electric wire warmer for your pipe Don't know if it will affect your whole system in temperature reading or the like but it is worth trying. Gas furnace or fireplace and you will be way better off, even better with a fireplace instert or woodstove like enclosure. My backup in those days was two fireplaces, one upstairs and one downstairs. That proved to be a full time job adding wood to the fire because they were not efficient. So I got screwed.

Still, I understand that this is a business but people, think about it. With today's technology anybody can build an online newspaper. The Columbian made a mistake buying this website. It is too fancy, too much stuff, and overcrowded with advertisement. If they have to pay a monthly fee to support it or maintain it plus paying for the software, they are screwed, plus the archival of thr news and database management costs, blah blah blah. And the printing costs. Wow! Major screw up.

Your two cents will not bail them out, not even help. Madonis and local republicans must be laughing now. The chickens have come home to roost.

I say, simplify, junk this fancy pants site and use a plain vanilla one. Dump the printed paper too.

You biggest nightmare is that you can get the news for free and from tthe citizens first, so the business model kaput!

The WSJ for instance I think it charges. Only the rich can pay because nobodys like me won't pay as a matter of principle. It ain't worth it. Now, if there were no advertisements....that would be another story all together. You can't be bombarded with advertisements and expect the customer to pay unless they can't do without what you offer. That is not the case.

A minimal number of loyals die hard may pay but eventually, the biz model will destroy itself.

We live in a different time now. Information for free or you can shove it up your arse. We can get it somewhere else. Madonis and the other stooges are not that important. Nope!

nicepuppy — December 8, 2013 at 10:27 a.m. ( | suggest removal

luvithere — December 8, 2013 at 9:47 a.m.

Why have Captcha at all, really? Thought the whole point of it was to tell humans and spam posts apart. Or am I wrong on that? Is it because some on Forum are not logged into FB? Thought there was a Columbian login too. Not sure. Just seems the Captcha seems redundant.

Count me in with those who are willing to pay, as I've not paid for the hardcopy Columbian for about 5 years, other than when I pick it up at the grocery. I don't have a lot of time to read newspapers, magazines, books, and websites. SO MUCH TO READ and so little time! So, I take one Sunday print edition at the door...NYT. That allows me access to all NYT editions all week. Same with the few monthly magazines I still take, access online because of subscription. Some monthly publications allows limited access, or no access, or let's you read part of an article before getting a flag to sign in or buying. Washington Post requires only a sign in as does most national papers.

However, the Columbian is NOT a national paper. And it's one of very limited Independent publications. That part right there is very important, keeping it indepentent. It could be absorbed like so many others, and just be part of some conglomerate telling our community only what it wants and how it wants. Love it or hate it, the Columbian is LOCAL and therefore involved in community interests exclusively. To condemn those who shop at Walmart or big box stores while negating any effort to keep the independents of publishing around is like those who condemned St. Johns IGA closing right before heading off to Target or Walmart.

jacjak — December 8, 2013 at 10:32 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Once in awhile I stumble across an article or a perspective I find kinda special.

In spite of it's headline, this article isn't so much about right or wrong, the left or the right, but much about a slice of middle America and what we're becoming. An insightful entertaining read for those who want to spend, what I guarantee, is a worthwhile few minutes of your time.

nailingit — December 8, 2013 at 10:41 a.m. ( | suggest removal

When I got up this morning 4 am our son had already switched from the heat pump to the emergency heat (furnace). I asked why he said the heat pump was working too hard to try to keep the house at 63 degrees so switched it over. So now we wait til it warms to 25 degrees outside then go back to the heat pump for heat.

Anyone watch the State championship for high school football last night between Camas high and Chiawana high of Pasco? Great game! One of the best I have seen in a long time!

ELISI — December 8, 2013 at 10:48 a.m. ( | suggest removal

The Columbian has shown its true colors over the CRC issue. While they SHOULD be reporting on the goings on of the BoCC, their “reporting” amounts to a hit job. “Who was it that coined the “M&M;” thing”? is right drift. Where’s the coverage over the direction that the CRC project took in contradiction to the votes which were held on lite rail? Where’s the issue of Ctran not putting lite rail to a vote according to RCW’s, which roger has mentioned some number of times. Their big expose on Benton had no smoking gun but did serve to put him in an unflattering light. Suspect, considering Benton’s key role in the demise of the CRC. Benton’s lawsuit threat of Ed Barnes received a lot of coverage, even to include Lou encouraging attending the CC meeting and the Sparticus like unity. Where’s the coverage of Leavitt’s threat of a lawsuit against Terrence Jeffries? Where’s the coverage of Leavitt’s conflict of interest? From what I’ve seen of these Columbian Blogs, the reporters make no attempt to appear balanced. In my mind, some of the things I’ve seen have ruined their credibility. While the Columbian has had in the past -- Michael Zuzel, Michael Heywood and John Laird; who’s ever been at the Columbian that could come close to the Right as those three were to the Left? A grievance process is fine, but all things considered, the sheep asking the two wolves to reconsider what’s for dinner tonight, has a better chance of a fair hearing than do Madore, Mielke and Benton.


hawkeye — December 8, 2013 at 10:05 a.m.

Thank you hawkeye.

kn_dalai — December 8, 2013 at 11:02 a.m. ( | suggest removal

roger @ 9:59 am: I imagine The Columbian has similar internal politics which drive some employees away, just like any other organization. In journalism, though, good jobs are few and far between.

I follow some Columbian reporters' Twitter feeds when I can. It was interesting to note that Erik Hidle reported that his original message, letting folks know he was leaving at the end of the month, had been mysteriously deleted, so he sent out another tweet announcement. He directed people to his personal twitter account and indicated he would be using that more.

He also said that his resignation was a difficult decision, so that tells me the decision to leave was his. I get the feeling he is going to be covering the winter Olympics in Russia. What's not to love about that gig?

manthou — December 8, 2013 at 12:32 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Before Conservatives and Tea Partiers get too deep into another victimhood meme and use the Columbian’s paywall decision as another opportunity to bash the Paper for its biased and partisan coverage it would be good to remember that in the last few election cycles the Columbian has endorsed a number of Conservative Republicans such as: Romney over Obama, McKenna over Inslee, Rossi over Murray, Herrera Buetler over Heck, and many others. Those endorsements don’t mean the Paper is ultra conservative, but they certainly put a strain on the credibility of anyone claiming the Paper is liberal or progressive.

JohnK — December 8, 2013 at 1:55 p.m. ( | suggest removal

How does the Right wing tweaks the system in order to achieve their you see suit and tie crooks in charge of our government..

Rand Paul is a "Doctor" if Opthalmology... since he could not get certified by normal means because he is not very bright, rides along his Dad's shade, he, his wife and father in law, created their own certification board to validate his whatever studies he had. It is or was permissible in the great "sub-state" of Kentucky apparently....

Read the his stance on the working man that is suffering as we speak...HE just doesn't give a $hit!

The end does justify the means for these crooks. Have no doubt, these people don't have the same values of you and I. They have no values. It is dog eat dog but their dogs will lie, cheat and steal in order to get their way. They call everybody else "evil" but in reality, they are the ones that do not follow christian principles of solidarity and helping the ones suffering.

Be forewarned...understand, retain and process accordingly to your own moral compass...

nicepuppy — December 8, 2013 at 3:11 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Defrosting complete (cold line to kitchen sink was frozen, too). Heat working. Hooray for now. When is this cold snap supposed to break? Home Depot was packed with people fixing broken pipes and buying pipe insulation.

JohnK: Good points about the Columbian's endorsements over the years. I had forgotten how many Republicans on their vote yes list.

When the paywall goes up, I fear things might get a little quieter here and maybe duller.

roger: When you read the latest story by Richard Read, posted here, please comment. I'd like to hear your perspective.

manthou — December 8, 2013 at 3:26 p.m. ( | suggest removal

paul's take on extended unemployment benefits is horsechit. the end result of his plan in an economy our's has become will be able to transform a class of "unemployable" into a class of desperate people taking minimum pay, part-time, no benefit jobs to help raise, for ex. walmart's profits beyond the $15.7B of last year. with the Walton family having 4 members in the top 5 wealthiest americans, and the fifth member, the poor one, in the top ten. our politicians are so arrogant they think they know all about economics, industry, transportation, hell everything. they only use experts if it fits their ideology.

I've got a feeling the C is going to roll out their new plan tomorrow. bye, bye

mrd — December 8, 2013 at 3:42 p.m. ( | suggest removal

manthou — December 8, 2013 at 3:26 p.m.

Ha! You think you got it bad, when it started to get cold, something crawled under my house and died right under the bathroom heater duct. I don't know what it is, could be anything from a rabbit to a possum to a mole. Anyway, the decomp was stinking up the bathroom so I duct taped the vent closed until I can open the outside vents up. It's a little cold in there but not that bad.

Started a fire in the wood stove, installed a blower for it last year so it heats up the room well. Also put in a ceiling fan, mixes the air much better. The heat pump is idle now.

Watching the Hawks/9ers game, pretty good so far.


hawkeye — December 8, 2013 at 3:47 p.m. ( | suggest removal

JohnK — December 8, 2013 at 1:55 p.m.

Well stated. I've preached this many times before when those on the right start to stammer and pout about this paper being liberally bias. This train of thought is just absurd.


In what was arguably the clearest election in modern times, one which drew distinct ideological lines with both presidential candidates, an election that was crystal on what type of role our government should play, from health care to marriage equality to austerity to welfare benefits to immigration and all points between and beyond...this paper chose Romney. And continues to preach Romney/Ryan/Rand/Republican austerity, (too damn many 'R's' for sure) and that a much diminished role of government is needed to benefit our society. Why just this week......

"But as far as substantial accomplishments, this likely will be remembered as the "do-nothing Congress." That is not necessarily a bad thing. All too often in Washington, D.C., "spending money" is viewed as being synonymous with "accomplishment," and Congressional inaction was somewhat beneficial this year."

why just last week....why just the week before......on & on & on. The idea this paper has a liberal bias is just factually ridiculous.

The whining that some folks do in this area is as childish as it is unfounded. This paper has been hard on the M&M;'s & Benton for a reason. They are prime examples of what's wrong with our political structure today, no matter what side of the aisle one sits on. Unfortunately, this penchant for victimhood and crying foul (and a president who will bend and compromise to the umpteenth degree) has worked at the national level somewhat, and in part has caused this nation to lean so far right people are fed up with it.

Conservatives seemingly can't compete in the arena of ideas, and God knows at a national level they haven't been on the winning side of elections as of late, so they resort to finger pointing and crying foul.

And by the way folks, I think light rail is dead for now. But for those (activist wannabe city planners, engineers & all around transportation experts) who will still be around in ten years or so when it's on the table again, take heart. It'll be more expensive and harder to do, so you have much to look forward to in the "community activism" arena. Maybe you can kill it again.

Anyway, that's the way I feel and I'm stickin' with it. :)

A little cold outside today.....

nailingit — December 8, 2013 at 3:57 p.m. ( | suggest removal

manthou — December 8, 2013 at 3:26 p.m. --- "roger: When you read the latest story by Richard Read, posted here, please comment. I'd like to hear your perspective."

That article was in The Oregonian on Friday, and Kitz is being clobbered by about 90% of the people who post there. My perspective is as follows. (When I post on this topic in The O, I usually like to point out the likelihood that this project would put that state well into the red - all based on State Treasurer Ted Wheeler's assessment, by the way.)

If that bridge is built, Oregon will lose money - a lot of it. Coming in at or under budget is a dream, and tolling estimates are admitted to being inaccurate due to being based on a much higher volume of traffic than actually exists. Look at the SR520 bridge project in Seattle; people are not using the bridge in numbers projected. Look at the Foothills toll road in northern LA - getting ready to go into bankruptcy for the second time because commuters refuse to pay and use it. And as for the light rail component - no problem if you work in downtown Portland. But the supporting bus system most would have to rely on is becoming progressively less reliable, especially as routes get cut due to TriMet's budget problems.

roger — December 8, 2013 at 4:09 p.m. ( | suggest removal

roger @ 4:09 PM: I just don't see how Kitz is gonna sell this to the Oregon legislature. I agree with nailingit: the project is dead.

hawkeye: Duct tape is great for everything. It ann't broke, it just needs Duct tape…….I used it to plug up a hole in an outbuilding that bats loved to enter. Hope your critter carcass becomes mummified soon: I had a nest of mice die (thanks to my poison) under the cabinet in my kitchen sink a couple of years ago, right over the heater duct. Pee yew.

mrd: Are you saying that you won't hang around the Forum if you have to pony up some funds to do so? Please reconsider. We don't know the price yet. I still cannot believe that current subscribers have to pay more for online access. The Seattle Times actually charged its journalists for online access after it put up a paywall, with a gracious employee discount. If people complain about the C, they ought to spend some time on Frank Blethen's turf for awhile. It will make you want to kiss the feet of Scott Campbell.

nailingit: I think people who cheer for local, independent newspapers to fail are the same people who are hoping to shut down government.

manthou — December 8, 2013 at 4:52 p.m. ( | suggest removal

JohnK — December 8, 2013 at 1:55 p.m.

Republican yes, but whether these names qualify as Conservative is open to question. Maybe a couple especially. In any event, the Columbian’s endorsement of some Republicans does not negate questions of the Columbian’s personnel staffing over the years, nor of their one-sided coverage of M, M and B, while leaving the gloves off of Leavitt and others. Political activism - not reporting - and inappropriate, as I see it JohnK. One may easily wonder if the CRC with all of its repercussions, may be of some influence here, given the Columbian’s pro lite rail stance.

I see where you’ve used the words Liberal and Progressive as if there’s a difference. Maybe you can explain just what that difference between Liberal and Progressive is. I’ve asked the question more than once before without a response. I’ve tried to find a difference between the two, but can’t. I maintain that Progressive is a euphemism for Liberal. I also believe that the terms Liberal and Conservative are badly understood and often misdefined.

kn_dalai — December 8, 2013 at 8:06 p.m. ( | suggest removal

I agree with nailingit: the project is dead.

manthou — December 8, 2013 at 4:52 p.m.

I'm not sure if I agree with myself! I was sure wrong about the ability of a few to stop the CRC from moving forward. Politics are never boring for sure. If those opposed to this project begin to understand how long it will take to complete this, the project might have a chance.

All-those-years, prognosticators can gripe about cost overruns-completion dates for sections of the rail-gripe about union and out of state workers having a job-the crime this project is bringing-transporting materials-the endless conjecture about efficiency and non-reduced driving time---all that and much much more will either be lost or tabled.

The horror!

This community and it's insistence on micro managing infrastructure projects baffles me all to hell. I hope my sewer never backs up as I'm sure there will be a sect insisting on a vote to unclog it.


In the politics are never boring department, anyone who honestly pays attention to what's happened the last few decades, understands that conservatives spend our tax dollars with a vengeance, much more than liberals/progressives do. No administration has spent like Dubya and Reagan. Not only excessive spending, but growing the reach of government as well as creating little in the job department. (Clinton created more jobs in eight years than the two Bushes and Reagan did in 20 years)

And it looks like conservatives have found yet another creative way to dictate democracy, gender quota's! Although it's my wish government representation was truly reflective of our population, around fifty-fifty gender wise, I certainly never thought about legislating it! (silly me, I still think voting matters)

The latest conservative expansion effort. (A great slippery slope. Next we should include race, religion, income levels, family size, I.Q. (I might be on board with that one) and then, after all, why have elections? ((oops!)) (And the constitution, they've never let that get in the way before!)

///A libertarian man’s surprising proposal: Gender quotas!///

nailingit — December 8, 2013 at 9:43 p.m. ( | suggest removal

It's 11:15 and it's down to 17 degrees in beautiful Battle Ground.

hawkeye — December 8, 2013 at 11:15 p.m. ( | suggest removal


that's what i do. when i send a donation, i always make sure it says "anonymous".

come to think of it, there are VERY FEW things i do that make me feel as good as doing something for a specific family or a specific person. my thing is the homeless. LITERALLY "there but for the grace of God...."

my fantasy is to sneak $1000 bills into people's pockets or purses; those who, like me, have impending food for the kids, cant pay rent, heat about to be cut off. oh, been there. but for the grace of God....

for those i agree with and especially those i don't, may God hold you in the palm of His hand, give you health and prosperity and lead you to paths of peace.

DeeLittle — December 8, 2013 at 11:38 p.m. ( | suggest removal

manthou and nails -

The CRC project isn't dead. The current preferred local design is dead and was killed even before it started for various reasons. Number one, the voters have repeatedly said no to light rail yet the decision to include light rail in the design rather than a high-capacity transit lane overstepped the voters. Number two, when it came right down to funding for operations and maintenance of light rail ON the project, the Clark County voters AGAIN said no. Number three, the federal funding was contingent on both states agreeing to their portion of the funding and Washington State said no due to the lack of support by voters and this project had to include high capacity transit access (multiple designs).

To say the opponents don't want a bridge is inaccurate. We want an improvement. We want a better crossing for the I-5 Corridor through Vancouver and Delta Park. What the opponents of the current LPA design are saying is simple. I think I can safely say "WE" in this next statement -

WE the MAJORITY of opponents of the current LPA design are against this project in its current design because our voting privileges were violated when the decision was made to include MAX (because of the fact that it is estimated there would only be a ONE-MINUTE commute improvement for through traffic which includes freight mobility as well as improved military vehicular access through the corridor) even though we said NO LRT, NO WAY! To continue, the increased congestion throughout West Vancouver and at Clark College due to the installation of Max lines is not considered beneficial to those of us who still commute via personal vehicle...and the powers that be cannot force us onto MAX. Also, in the cost analysis, included were budgeted funding for projects which weren't even IN the designated stretch of corridor including LRT improvements to the Steel Bridge and a maintenance shed improvement in Gresham.

Manthou....Nails....the costs outweighed common sense. The people in charge of the planning phase were inept and failed the a cost of $170 million. A legal investigation must be made by an independent source.

They should have listened to the voters. We'd be in the construction phase today if it weren't for the irresponsibility of the planners of the CRC. Bringing in people of the "community" who had vested interests much higher than the average citizen's daily commute was a biased move by the CRC planners.

goldenoldie — December 9, 2013 at 6:02 a.m. ( | suggest removal

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