Open forum, Dec 9-15



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Coldest yet. 15 degrees at 6 am. Damn!

hawkeye — December 9, 2013 at 6:19 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Well, I hope we're driving better today than Friday. Guess I'll know in a few.

roger — December 9, 2013 at 6:24 a.m. ( | suggest removal

*** Bark of the Week ***

Pay for this, pay for that, pay for the other, pay on top of this and pay on top of that. Have you noticed? From the moment you get up, you start adding the dollars and cents that i takes you to even function from day to day. You have to do this at the expense of not saving the meager wages you may have or wages at all, one way or the other, every thing costs money. To be alive it costs money. No money, no life.

Now think about that for a minute.... Isn't that slavery in more than one way? You just can't say no to this kind of slavery. Similar to the slavery of time or aging. Unavoidable. We are completely screwed.

Some say, I am high on life, optimistic, cup half full, etc. Are you serious? Even if you had all the money in the world you still will not be free or happy. How could you?

Me thinks that you are lying to self and others because that state of living does not exist. Your mind knows it and you just trick it into positivism and hope so you don't end up killing yourself in despair.

Take local politics. If there isn't a never ending hell, I don't know what else could it be?

Take the outrage of the Columbian to charge access to this site....

It is all about money, money nobody has or is willing to part ways with.

Hell no! Hell no! Some of you really disappoint me. Who pays you to contribute here? Who does? What about the time you spend here? What about the hits that make them money. What about the web bots that snif in your computer s we speak? I count 7 already with my detection and avoidance software.

Think about it! Stay your ground or bend over. Your choice. Mine is hell no!


nicepuppy — December 9, 2013 at 6:30 a.m. ( | suggest removal


I did a little checking, and was going to respond to your post from yesterday afternoon, but the website went down. Seattle Times provides the web services free to home delivery subscribers. The Olympian charges their home delivery customers $2.50/month for the web service, vs. $9.95/month (If my memory is correct).

As I noted before, I get very little value from the hard copy paper - this website meets my local needs. If home delivery subscribers are also charged for website access, then I cancel the paper and pay full price for web access - assuming it will be cheaper (which it almost has to be).

I don't feel that same devotion to the hometown paper you do - Most likely because I see it as the mouthpiece of the 49th District, Vancouver City Council, and the organizations that hold power in this County (ICC, Chamber of Commerce, We on the east side are the cash cow, to be milked for what we have to finance the pursuit of the downtown plans.

roger — December 9, 2013 at 6:38 a.m. ( | suggest removal


that's what i do. when i send a donation, i always make sure it says "anonymous".

come to think of it, there are VERY FEW things i do that make me feel as good as doing something for a specific family or a specific person. my thing is the homeless. LITERALLY "there but for the grace of God...."

my fantasy is to sneak $1000 bills into people's pockets or purses; those who, like me, have impending food for the kids, cant pay rent, heat about to be cut off. oh, been there. but for the grace of God....

for those i agree with and especially those i don't, may God hold you in the palm of His hand, give you health and prosperity and lead you to paths of peace.

DeeLittle — December 8, 2013 at 11:38 p.m

DeeLittle — December 9, 2013 at 7:07 a.m. ( | suggest removal

It's currently a balmy 19F - one block off of the 3200 block of Fourth Plain.

Getting back to your 502/county moratorium, manthou. I had a heck of a time getting the CVTV download. Though normally slow, I don't usually have any problems with it. Yesterday, though...I dunno.

Mielke and Madore are prohibitionists. Plain and simple. It's all about the NIMBY mentality. Mielke has gone on record stating be believes medicinal cannabis is a sham. Just prior to the ban on collective gardens (and there's a current lawsuit in process) Stuart had the staff differentiate between a commercial enterprise and the private endeavors of 'patients.' The "Boys" still banned.

Time and again Mielke uses federal law as a crutch to hold up his bias. "We could get in trouble. Damned if we do, damned if we don't." This line of reasoning is ludicrous. 20 states have medicinal cannabis laws. Many have dispensing and licensed regulated by state actors. There hasn't been one single case of a state employee (in the course of their work) being federally indicted.

The USAG has said the feds won't go getting into Washington and Colorado's business as long as rules are established and adhered to.

Also, the Liquor Board currently has a query into the State Attorney General's office asking if the various bans in this state are legal. I can see that going either way. After all, some states -do- have dry counties and liquor is legal. Should the attorney advise in the afirmative, then you can bet something shiny 502 will be banned in Clark County.

If the bans are seen as not legal, then I would expect zoning so arduous that it accomplishes the same goal.

In my opinion, investing in 502 (in Clark County) is throwing money away.
For some odd reason, two of the county commissioners would (apparently) want the black-market here to flourish and cannabis be readily available to anyone with a few bucks in their pocket. You know, like any 15-year-old.

I don't -get it-.

Drift — December 9, 2013 at 7:34 a.m. ( | suggest removal

What you don;t get drift because you spend yourself bonging too much is what I posted this weekend about evangelists.

There is a plan dude and that is to destroy our culture and freedoms and bring us back to fundamentalism.

That is what the Three Stooges represent. God, The Bible and Money making, the hell with the arts and culture in general. That distracts their zombies from enslaving even more to pass the tax free money to them to do great things by controlling the world over.

When are you people going to wake up? Go back to those links. This Crusade started a long time ago and Madonis and the other two are just tools of a greater cause.

Clark County is doomed with these crooks in charge. They hate progress and the word progress.

Wake up people. How could you be so dense? This nobody can see things that you refuse to see? It is all over the web. Read up!

nicepuppy — December 9, 2013 at 7:51 a.m. ( | suggest removal

DeeLittle — December 9, 2013 at 7:07 a.m

Dee what can I say, you and I are cut from the same cloth as far as that goes.
Nothing gives me more joy than watching a child's face light up when given a gift of a cookie, toy. See the tears of gratefulness from parents that struggle with day to day expenses have gifts for their little ones at Christmas time..or boxes of food arrive on their doorstep just in time. A Christmas tree left at a doorstep, a pair of new slippers for those in nursing homes, or spend time talking, reading with them..their families have all but forgotten them. The single mom who just gave birth and have nothing for the baby,wakes to find a basket full of everything she'll need for her little one.
So much need out there and few step up. Oh they talk about helping, they complain about those who don't have and those who do and do nothing. One hasn't a clue until they roll up their sleeves and help others.

May the Lord bless you Dee

Matthew 25:35-40

For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.’ Then the righteous will answer him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? And when did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? And when did we see you sick or in prison and visit you?’ And the King will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.’

ELISI — December 9, 2013 at 8:03 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Right now it shows it is 14 degrees at my house.
Cold enough to freeze the nipples off of oranges. :)

ELISI — December 9, 2013 at 8:12 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Drift @ 7:34 am: I appreciate your perspective about the medical cannabis issue locally.

Mielke loves to draw from his own limited experience and generalize it to everyone and every situation in Clark County. What makes that worse, is that he dismisses or minimizes what current scientific research tells us. Instead of evidence-based decision-making, we have Mielkisms that translate into very poor law. Madore? He lets his religion and ideology be his guide. Then he posts to his FB page all sorts of self-created proof of how his ideas are saving us. No data from him, either. Only hype.

roger @ 6:38 am: Hope your commute was smooth this morning. Would you rather Vancouver's downtown go back to the days where it was a deserted embarrassment? Why can't we celebrate the differences and strengths of East and West and be glad we have such diverse entertainment, shopping, and living options so readily available? I was not here for the annexation controversy, but what would you like on the East side that Vancouver government has denied you there? My taxes pay for improvements in East county, too. I just don't live there and am not as tuned in to the specifics of this long-standing gripe. I'd like to know more. Anyone?

When The Seattle Times started their paywall, I remember that all-digital subscribers were delivered a paper version on their porches whether they wanted one or not. There was a lot of brouhaha over that: waste of resources and all. I travel quite a bit and don't want to bother having to call or email a vacation stop. With digital, the "paper" goes with me.

manthou — December 9, 2013 at 8:13 a.m. ( | suggest removal

-United States Is Now the Most Unequal of All Advanced Economies-

The United States has such an unequal distribution of wealth so that it's in the league of corrupt underdeveloped countries, no longer in the league of the developed nations, according to the latest edition of the world's most thorough study of wealth-distribution.

Read more @

nailingit — December 9, 2013 at 8:29 a.m. ( | suggest removal

manthou, I'm with roger on his perception regarding the Columbian. Most the time, I can read up on Clark County news from other sources before the C reporters copy/paste the article. Quite honestly, there is too much emotion in local reporting, creating a biased atmosphere which tends to turn me away from showing any financial support. I want to read the facts, not the writer's preferences. News reporting has morphed into something most people have come to accept IF they already support the point of view in the article they are reading.

I could take just about any politically-related or even crime-related article actually written by the C's reporters and show you their "spin" to the article. With your history in journalism, I'm sure you know of what I'm speaking.

goldenoldie — December 9, 2013 at 8:39 a.m. ( | suggest removal

kn_dalai — December 8, 2013 at 8:06 p.m. Last night, just before the site crashed you asked me to define the difference between Liberals and Progressives and expressed concern that previous questions had gone unanswered.
F Personally, I think the terms are mostly semantical and as interchangeable as using Regressive or Conservatives, but if you’re interested in a more academic distinction, you couldn’t do better than to Google “Liberal vs Progressive.”

JohnK — December 9, 2013 at 8:41 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Something I spoke to recently. Warren is key in moving the Dems left in this far right political spectrum. We need many more Elizabeth Warren's in Congress.

-Why Elizabeth Warren baffles pundits: “Economic populism” isn’t just a campaign slogan-

The point of economic populism and pushing Democrats to the left is to push them to the left, not to beat Hillary

nailingit — December 9, 2013 at 9:56 a.m. ( | suggest removal

goldie @ 8:39 AM: Are you staying warm? So glad this cold snap is going to break….

I know that you, and many others, truly believe that The Columbian has let its readers down by publishing journalism that is mostly biased. It is good, then, that you will have an opportunity to give it feedback by refusing to pay for web content. It may give The C important information, as I am sure that this is a bit of a financial gamble, if it does not attract many subscribers.

Encouraging responsible and ethical journalism is a passion of mine (among other things) and I really don't think The Columbian is way out-of-balance or unfair in its reporting. I do not agree with every opinion piece published there, but I think the facts are solid.

When I read an article in the media that I know is inaccurate or biased, I directly write the journalist and editor with a respectful documentation of the error. Sometimes it results in a correction. My biggest vindication was a published apology from a large city newspaper and the addition of a "standards" editor (kind of an public ombudsperson without a column).

You, too, should consider letting the Columbian directly know where its journalists are violating SPJ ethical guidelines and encourage others to do so, too. I have never shied away from doing so. It takes time, but we are the consumers who support media. We can be elevated by it, informed by it, and we can be irrevocably harmed by unethical reporting. If we are silent, or just complain to the walls, then we get what we deserve.

Journalists are the only professionals left (beside preachers, I think) who do not have to answer to a licensing board or governing body due to our first amendment protections, so there are great risks for abuses from a few bad eggs. Most journalists do a pretty good job and I think the C holds up its ethical end very well. I want it to be healthy because I think it makes Clark County healthier.

The link to the Society of Professional Journalist Code of Ethics seems to be broken temporarily, but google it later and take a look. Here is the one that NPR uses and it echoes the same values:

manthou — December 9, 2013 at 10:15 a.m. ( | suggest removal

nailingit @ 9:56 am: Isn't the US hurting from too much extremism in its parties? I am not saying that Elizabeth Warren is extreme, but moving more toward the left is the same as moving more toward the right: the moderate middle is what will heal and unite us.

manthou — December 9, 2013 at 10:25 a.m. ( | suggest removal

goldenoldie — December 9, 2013 at 8:39 a.m. I'd greatly appreciate a few links to those unbiased Clark County news sources the Columbian's reporters are 'copying and pasting' their stories from.

The reason I'm asking is I just got my first pop-up from the Columbian limiting future access. (10 down-20 to go) I followed the link to the subscription page and was surprised to find online access costing more than the E-edtion. I checked out the E-edtion, but that's like trying to read a newspaper with a magnifying glass. I'm old, but not that old.

Equally surprising was the $18 per/month charge for the online edition. I like and appreciate the role the Columbian plays in the community, but I'm having trouble convincing myself that I should pay more for the Columbian than I do the New York Times.

JohnK — December 9, 2013 at 11:02 a.m. ( | suggest removal

JohnK: I switched to the E-edition last May because of my travel. You get used to it. What I am trying to find out is this: do I have to add an online subscription to my E-edition subscription? Or does the E-edition give one access to online content? I have not received any warning pop ups at all.

I have posed this question to circulation and await their reply.

It is going to be quiet here.

Roll call: who is in?

manthou — December 9, 2013 at 11:44 a.m. ( | suggest removal

manthou — December 9, 2013 at 10:25 a.m.

Using your formula that the "moderate" middle is the best way to go has more than it's share of problems, and many times stalls progress, as the dynamics of individual situations, such as income disparity, certainly shouldn't be measured in this way. Basic examples below with opinion & fact:

"When we are confronted with two opposing views, we tend to look for the comfort of the middle ground hoping the truth might lie somewhere between the two extremes. For instance, if someone describes a play, a book, or a restaurant as brilliant and another person thinks it is awful, we might feel that, in fact, it probably is of moderate quality.

But, in many areas, this simplistic logic does not apply. If someone says the earth is flat and another person insists that it is a sphere, we cannot very well conclude the truth lies somewhere in the middle. Facts are facts and disagreements about facts cannot be settled by half-truths or semi-facts."

Education: For Americans born in the early 1960s, 5% of poor people went to college and 35% of rich folks did, according to the Russell Sage Foundation. They defined rich and poor as top and bottom 25% for income.

Only one generation later -- Americans born around 1980 -- the number of rich people going to college jumped by 20 percentage points. For poor people, it rose only 3 percentage points.

That further perpetuates the cycle of income inequality, as an increasing number of middle-class jobs favor the more educated.

The "middle" ground solution (numbers) to this is.....see what I mean?

So should we adjust a "middle" based on factions of society's unequal social progress? Many times middle ground shouldn't be sought. Gay marriage-some say no, others say yes. So middle ground would be to offer "domestic partnerships" not equal to full marital status. Many examples, but hope you get what I'm saying.

Another would be the no labels scam which has raked in countless dollars to offer middle ground solutions. Nothing gained but lining politico's pockets.

It's important people stand up to societal injustices, which are many times diminished for the sake of "common" ground. This speaks to what I've been saying about our country taking a hard social right since Reagan.

Some things need to be turned around, not balanced to accommodate an unjust and/or disproportionate paradigm.

Some say 10F is cold and others say 60F is warm-does that make 35F kinda warm/cool? :)

nailingit — December 9, 2013 at 12:37 p.m. ( | suggest removal

manthou @ 11:44 - I'm in, but like JohnK, I'm still trying to figure how they intend to work it. I got the popup too, which said 10 down 20 to go. The options were $1 a day after the freebies, or $18 a month for e-Columbian, and the last option was $30 for both online and home delivery. All three options had a disclaimer stating it did not include e-edition. So, what does the e-edition include that the e-edition does not, or viseversa? Would both include links to the forum & blogs? If not, which would? Mostly I want to be able to pop online whenever I have a few minutes without having to consider some Madore 'debt clock'. As the blogs and forum are a large part of coming to this site at all, I am assuming they will still be available, but that whole FB requirement is puzzling now. Will everyone who signs up using whatever plan they choose have to have a FB acct? Would I still be jacjac in the forum, or only have the FB identity? Inquiring minds say this could have been introduced and promoted in a more consise manner. On the other hand, I don't do change very well.

Is it snowing everywhere else, or only on the eastside?

jacjak — December 9, 2013 at 1:17 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Nevermind... 10 minutes does not count as 'snow'.

jacjak — December 9, 2013 at 1:34 p.m. ( | suggest removal

manthou — December 9, 2013 at 11:44 a.m.

jacjak — December 9, 2013 at 1:17 p.m.

When you guys get some answers would you please post them. I'm surprised the C wouldn't bring clarity to this issue given how many are on the FB side about the fees. They've been prepping this for months, yet we have to ask these questions? Not comparing it to the ACA rollout yet but...:))

"Roll call: who is in?"

manthou — December 9, 2013 at 11:44 a.m.

Count me in as long as this remains a diverse and thoughtful place. Some of you guys I consider friends without having met you. Sounds kinda weird, but many of us have built a sort of a relationship over time.

"Is it snowing everywhere else, or only on the eastside?"

jacjak — December 9, 2013 at 1:17 p.m.

Nothing in the lakeshore area yet JJ.

nailingit — December 9, 2013 at 1:38 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Drift---- I was talking to a banker the other day (I know quite a few of them) and he said that even if a person could start a pot business here or anywhere in Washington, it would have to be a 100% cash business since no bank will touch their money for fear that the feds will swoop in and bust them and close the bank down. Interesting thought.

jacjak--- manthou, I'm still on the fence on this pay to talk deal. $18 a month seems too high for me. I'd probably pay about half that. I just got home but it was snowing on the road, really light. I don't see it now.

hawkeye — December 9, 2013 at 1:38 p.m. ( | suggest removal

In my never ending quest to find out what makes people vote republican, (other than misogynists, self serving plutocrats & God folk:) I came across this and thought I'd share it.

-What makes people vote Republican?-

Why in particular do working class and rural Americans usually vote for pro-business Republicans when their economic interests would seem better served by Democratic policies? We psychologists have been examining the origins of ideology ever since Hitler sent us Germany's best psychologists, and we long ago reported that strict parenting and a variety of personal insecurities work together to turn people against liberalism, diversity, and progress. But now that we can map the brains, genes, and unconscious attitudes of conservatives, we have refined our diagnosis: conservatism is a partially heritable personality trait that predisposes some people to be cognitively inflexible, fond of hierarchy, and inordinately afraid of uncertainty, change, and death. People vote Republican because Republicans offer "moral clarity"—a simple vision of good and evil that activates deep seated fears in much of the electorate. Democrats, in contrast, appeal to reason with their long-winded explorations of policy options for a complex world.

Diagnosis is a pleasure. It is a thrill to solve a mystery from scattered clues, and it is empowering to know what makes others tick. In the psychological community, where almost all of us are politically liberal, our diagnosis of conservatism gives us the additional pleasure of shared righteous anger. We can explain how Republicans exploit frames, phrases, and fears to trick Americans into supporting policies (such as the "war on terror" and repeal of the "death tax") that damage the national interest for partisan advantage.

But with pleasure comes seduction, and with righteous pleasure comes seduction wearing a halo. Our diagnosis explains away Republican successes while convincing us and our fellow liberals that we hold the moral high ground. Our diagnosis tells us that we have nothing to learn from other ideologies, and it blinds us to what I think is one of the main reasons that so many Americans voted Republican over the last 30 years: they honestly prefer the Republican vision of a moral order to the one offered by Democrats. To see what Democrats have been missing, it helps to take off the halo, step back for a moment, and think about what morality really is.

Read more @

nailingit — December 9, 2013 at 3:05 p.m. ( | suggest removal

hawkeye @ 1:38pm -- While coming to the forum is a big part my own motivation for the willingness to pay, it's not all of it. I continuously learn here from view points of view I may have not considered, or get referred to other articles, and even wonder what Roger may be cooking up in his kitchen besides cake frosting w/ raw nuts.

But, there is local information compiled in one place that would not be found on any FB or individual retail sites. I'd have to remember to go to the city site, or the county site, or a restaurant review site just to be aware of some new restaurant or a garden show or sausage fest. And where else would I find local news? Madore's FB? Clark County First? They're not going to tell about the citizen patrols on tagging, or whats going on at Old Apple Tree Park. With 30 freebies some folks will probably continue to check in once a day and not care about a charge, but don't think that'd work for me.

jacjak — December 9, 2013 at 3:38 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Darn nice article there, Nails.

Got home by 3, and there flurries. Nothing now.

I ain't paying 18 per month. An e-edition and an online edition? What's the difference? Anybody know

luvithere — December 9, 2013 at 3:41 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Two observations....

One, if you folks have money to throw away, why don't you just write a check to the Columbian every month as a donation for a "good job" or what ever.

Two, I was about to send the an "invoice" for the time I spend here.....and you should too. That would be a watch, even Steven so to speak.

I can't believe that you people are rolling on money. Not for a minute. No other places to get local news? Are you freaking kidding me?

I for one saw this coming. Not because they announced it some time ago but because Lou B. lately has been very ambiguous on his comments. I called him out a few weeks back. The right claims that the Columbian is bias. I say what? I don't think so. They are all over the place. What they are not bias about is Benton's hiring and the M&M; boys. Who wouldn't agree that they are crooks on a mission? Who?

Keep your money or give it to a family in need. Don't be such a selfish jerk! There are people hurting out there and after the first of the year millions will be in real trouble. You could be one of them. Who is going to throw you a stale piece of bread huh? Think! Campell has more money than you would ever think...don't give him more. Are you nuts?

nicepuppy — December 9, 2013 at 3:59 p.m. ( | suggest removal

ops..messed up... I was going to send The Columbian and invoice and that would be a wash.

Just for putting up with this captcha bull$hit we should charge it. It is the worst overhead on a forum I have ever experienced. What was the Einstein that figured that one out. Time is money and you are wasting my time dumb a$$es! Get rid off this Captcha crap!

nicepuppy — December 9, 2013 at 4:03 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Nicepuppy for me it is not about giving the Columbian more money. I enjoy this forum and the people on it. It is more of a recreation for me. Plus I have learned a few things here. I like the honesty of the comments. You even bring a bone to the table. May not always agree but you are interesting to read sometimes. This place is local and that works for me.

timerick — December 9, 2013 at 4:08 p.m. ( | suggest removal

manthou — December 9, 2013 at 10:25 a.m.

Another example of what I'm speaking of. President Obama time after time relents to republican fiscal demands and pushes the political spectrum to the right. JB getting 98% of what he wanted now makes the middle 99. Some things need change, and the damage Obama has done to this country by fiscally giving the house away may never be undone. But we have to change the direction in a meaningful, (in this case left) way, such as what Warren/Sanders puts on the table if we're going to turn this ship around in order to get to a reasonable middle.

-Boehner: I got 98 percent of what I wanted-

CBS Evening News anchor Scott Pelley sat down with Speaker of the House John Boehner in his office at the Capitol on Monday.

Boehner: We've got divided government in Washington. We've got big issues confronting us. We have a very open process and society. And as a result, we have healthy debates about how to move forward. This has certainly been a long, healthy debate.

Pelley: Give us a little bit of insight. How did the grand bargain fail? What was the breaking point? How did you tell the president you were walking away?

Boehner: It really boiled down to two issues. President was insisting on more taxes. President never got serious about the kind of spending cuts that were necessary in order to get America back on a sound fiscal footing.

Pelley: You don't think he negotiated in good faith?

Boehner: No, I do believe the president was negotiating in good faith. We had a lot of productive conversations, a lot of tense conversations. But it became pretty clear to me that I wasn't going to be for higher taxes, and the president wasn't going to cut spending as he should.

Pelley: What did you say to each other?

Boehner: I told the president I'm not going there. I can't do that.

Pelley: If this super committee that you talk about recommends raising revenue, can you support that?

Boehner: We'll see what it does. But I'm confident their focus will be on reducing expenditures coming out of Washington.

Pelley: Can you image Republicans backing increased taxes?

Boehner: I think that would be a stretch. It doesn't seem likely to me that that would be recommended, much less supported, but I've been surprised before.

Pelley: You were unable to get your own caucus behind your bill a few days ago. Do you intend to remain Speaker of the House?

Boehner: I do. When you look at this final agreement that we came to with the white House, I got 98 percent of what I wanted. I'm pretty happy.

nailingit — December 9, 2013 at 4:12 p.m. ( | suggest removal

OK, all. Here is what I learned from calling the C's subscription department.

If you want full access to the web version (not to be confused with the E-edition, which is a photocopy-like version of the print one), you pay $18 a month. For those of us with a paper subscription or an E-Edition subscription, we get to add the web site version on for $4 extra a month for 6 months, then the full $18.00 is added on top of the other subscription.

The web version for $18 gets you unlimited access and the Forum should stay the same. They are not taking it down. The web version does not contain all the stories that are in the paper or E-edition, however. We knew that already.

Funny thing: I tried to sign up for the web version today to add to my digital subscription and the form would not accept any of my credit cards, which, by the way, are all good. :)

I intend to fork over the money. Hope some of you stay to keep the conversation going on here. I don't want to be stuck on my own, talking to myself. :)

manthou — December 9, 2013 at 4:17 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Eh Manthou, we see how it goes. I would miss my daily fix and laughs from here for sure. It's my relax time and let's me find out lots of good info from so many. I feel like I know most of you to some extent or other. Including kitties and puppies.

luvithere — December 9, 2013 at 4:26 p.m. ( | suggest removal

I tried to Manthou and it would not take my credit cards either and they also are good. You won't be stuck on your own. I think Nail will come and Roger maybe Hawk if I can talk him into it. Like I said this like a recreation for me. I don't travel and I don't gamble. So I will do this.

timerick — December 9, 2013 at 4:26 p.m. ( | suggest removal

JohnK — December 9, 2013 at 11:02 a.m.

Sorry if you found my comment a bit confusing. I wasn't saying the copy/paste articles were biased, although some if not many are. I was saying the writers on the C put too much emotion and bias into their writes...and that's my opinion. When I read their writes, it is plain to see the slant they choose in their techniques which fulfills their personal twist to the real story....probably because I recognize classic "creative writing" skills taught in the literary field.

JohnK, if I wanted to read crime novels or novels of crooked politicians, I needn't go farther than the Columbian and quite frankly, dime novels aren't exciting at the price of $18 a month. I'd rather go for the classics...8))

goldenoldie — December 9, 2013 at 4:44 p.m. ( | suggest removal

timerick @ 4:26pm
Well, I gamble and travel AND buy books! Think I'm pooched.

jacjak — December 9, 2013 at 4:47 p.m. ( | suggest removal

I just got an email from the Oregonian and they said I could have full access to their online paper with my subscription to the paper. NO EXTRA CHARGE! Imagine that.

So I guess I don't understand all I'm reading here. There are TWO different online papers for The Columbian? Which version is this?

hawkeye — December 9, 2013 at 4:48 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Wow...$18 a month???? Really??? That could help provide 8 meals a month with my donations alone at the Portland Rescue Mission in PDX. Given the fact that there's well over 300 looking for a meal each day, I would rather help those in need rather than bail out a sell out. Lou needs to keep sellin' his cheesy mugs...maybe soon on a street corner near you!!! Maybe these mugs should have been around when they filed for bankruptcy. (yes, a cheap shot)

Don't Do Stupid Stuff, Mr. Campbell.

goldenoldie — December 9, 2013 at 4:51 p.m. ( | suggest removal

jacjak - I also make doughnuts (deep fried), pizza and a pretty mean chili (with beans - medium hot).

I'll pay the $4 add on fee until my hard copy subscription lapses (in another 4 months), and will then drop that and just subscribe to the web version. That'll be $5 a month cheaper. I can download my morning wake up sudoku puzzle from the internet for free.

I think The Columbian will lose - I can't imagine that many going for both versions once that 6 month period is up. I also think there's a good chance that their unintended consequence will be a migration of the facebook crowd to The Oregonian. Free is free, after all. And they don't require you to reveal your identity there. Not a place for the thin skinned, however - politeness gets no bonus points.

roger — December 9, 2013 at 5:30 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Actually, I'll save even more. The sneaky so and so's also raised the hard copy price $3 a month.

roger — December 9, 2013 at 5:55 p.m. ( | suggest removal

goldenoldie — December 9, 2013 at 4:51 p.m.

I tend to agree with your sentiments. As I read it, there will be 30 free access days per month, but just what can be accessed isn’t clear to me.


With some exception, the basement has largely been a caucus of Democrats for quite a while. It looks to me like those who will be Left here, can rejoice even more over their diversity as they have lively and unfettered discussion over whether the house of politics should be painted dark blue, or darker blue:)

kn_dalai — December 9, 2013 at 6 p.m. ( | suggest removal

I'm thinking that's 30 pages accessed. I got my 10 down, 20 to go about 15 minutes after I got here. I suppose I'll have to figure out how to pay that $4 extra pretty soon.

roger — December 9, 2013 at 6:06 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Am I misreading this about charges? I understand it to be that you can READ 30 articles a month free after that, one will have to pay. So if the forum ISN'T considered a article ..

ELISI — December 9, 2013 at 6:13 p.m. ( | suggest removal

The 30 pages makes sense roger. As of now, I still haven't received my 10 down notice. Must be rolling it out little by little.

kn_dalai — December 9, 2013 at 6:14 p.m. ( | suggest removal

The suspense is unbearable. Now I know what it felt like to be waiting in line for the guillotine back during that French housecleaning a couple hundred ago.

kn_dalai — December 9, 2013 at 6:25 p.m. ( | suggest removal

OR: we get our news somewhere else, and some tech nerd from the basement makes us a quick blog site so we can all go and gripe, err, chat there. Pup, up to it? You keep saying it is easy and free to do.
We can call it the Rejects or Freeloaders or Cheapies.

luvithere — December 9, 2013 at 6:28 p.m. ( | suggest removal

I'm in the same boat as manthou - They rejected my credit card, with a message saying it wasn't a recognized test number (or some such thing). I gather their on line subscription page isn't fully functional. (Maybe they're using the health insurance plan model?) Anyhow, they have a "loyal subscriber" rate for those who are already customers - web access at $6 for 6 months or $12 for 12 months. I clicked on the hard copy and website option, and on the screen that popped up it asked if I was already a subscriber. They'll link my web account to that one. Whatever.

roger — December 9, 2013 at 6:31 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Hi, all. What an adventure today. I did receive a call from someone at the C. I will call back tomorrow and tell her I know that at least three of us tried to hand over our hard-earned cash to them today, but were rejected.

hawkeye: The lingo they are using can be confusing. Here's my attempt to clarify:

The "E-edition" is $15 a month and is basically the print version in its entirety on your computer screen.

The "Online" version is $18 a month and does not contain every story in the E-edition or print edition. The "online" version will get you access to the Forum and breaking news. Does the Forum count as a story hit? I think it does because I know they track its traffic for stats.

I think I will do what roger is doing, when they finally accept our cards, that is. Sign up for the $4 a month intro price for the "Online" edition as an E-edition subscriber. Then drop the E-edition when it comes up for renewal in May and continue with the "online" version.

The nice woman I talked to did not understand why I wanted to sign up for the "online" version when I had the "e-edition." I explained to her: it is the interaction with others.

We're hooked, let's face it, like junkies.

manthou — December 9, 2013 at 7:43 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Ha Ha! It wouldn't take my card either after giving me the [[[[[5 ARTICLES LEFT NOTICE!]]]]

Now it can truly be compared to the ACA website rollout! Does this mean Lou will extend the individual mandate for the 18 bucks?

I guess I'll call tomorrow and do it over the phone. Might not be able to post after this (after going back & forth trying to sign up) so I'll put my 2 cents in now. (they count the forum as a hit)

timerick — December 9, 2013 at 4:26 p.m.
"Hawk if I can talk him into it." I'll try also...

Damn it hawk--do it!!! :) And roger (like JJ-I couldn't go without hearing about your frosted raw nuts either) /luv/all-go for it. No doubt most of us spend that much and more on take-out/DVD/book/a million other things once in awhile.

I know some will use your 30 freebies and we'll still hear from you. Back in the day, this sure would have cut down on the sock puppet crowd.

In closing-it's good to have this forum available. I learn a lot and it prompts me to keep my head in the game of politics. Our forum mayor and a few others have nudged me to keep my head in local stuff and that also is appreciated because I still feel somewhat new to this community. (I need to get out more)

Anyway guys, good to know many will still post.

nailingit — December 9, 2013 at 7:51 p.m. ( | suggest removal


If the "E-Version" costs $15 and has ALL the stuff the paper has, why does the "online" version cost $3 more with LESS content?

Damn it Lew!!!! Why are you messing with us????

hawkeye — December 9, 2013 at 8:42 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Unless you mean Lew Waters, then I think you mean “damn it Lou!!!”.

As I’m looking at this hawkeye, my guess; the e version is an online version of the paper. No comments and no daily updates. While the web site version has less content, (for reasons only the Columunist knows:), but does have updates and comments. It's likely all about capitalist marketing:) One thing I’ve wondered about is the classifieds. The current free online version seems to be pretty sparse when it comes to the classifieds. If you want to buy or sell something through the classifieds, then better buy the paper or the online e version.

kn_dalai — December 9, 2013 at 9:16 p.m. ( | suggest removal

My mistake, I always mix them up.


Lou seems like a girl's name, doesn't it?

hawkeye — December 9, 2013 at 9:47 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Looking over comments, I must say I was a little harsh with the No Labels movement. There doesn't seem to be anyone lining their pockets. (although the group pulled in 2.3 Million last year and seemingly doesn't invest in much) Just a group of politicians having breakfast once in awhile and embracing a kumbaya sense of well being. Nothing accomplished-nothing broken in three years. I guess that's something I can relate to. I haven't broken any of my wife's treasured polish pottery items for a few years now. Yea! Maybe I should get a pay-pal account and seek donations. :)

Many problems for our elected to solve. Smiling at one another and encouraging everyone to do the same is about as productive as yelling at everyone. At least the loud voices seem passionate about something. Just a few thoughts before signing off............ZZZzzz,,,

nailingit — December 10, 2013 at 12:03 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Good morning everyone. Up early, had to take wifey to work. Too much snow for her hot rod, no traction in this weather. So here I am at Sharis forbreakfast. Trying to figure out if the C computer counts different devices as one. If not, then I have several to choose from, I could have more than 120 pages per month. Breakfast is here. Have a great day, everyone.

hawkeye — December 10, 2013 at 6:30 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Good morning, those of us who are left……Hang in there. This should be easy, but it ain't.

I sent an email to Circulation, with a CC to Lou B and Scott C. Basically, I pleaded with them to publicize their website subscription sign up issues. I also told them that one of their phone operators, who was very, very polite and nice, asked me, "Why would you need the online version if you have the E-Edition?"

I had to explain the FB and Forum and breaking news concepts to a Columbian employee. Yikes. If you try to talk customers out of services, you are doomed. Also, I was told I had to use the website to sign up. The one that won't take our money. :)
I enjoy you all and the conversations/discussions we have. It has made me a well-informed citizen and inspired me to civic action. How 'bout that? Nailingit: I am gonna see you at a BOCC meeting yet.

manthou — December 10, 2013 at 6:36 a.m. ( | suggest removal

*** Bark of the Day! ***

A fool and his money are soon parted....

"A foole and his money be soone at debate: which after with sorow repents him too late."

The precise wording of the expression comes just a little later, in Dr. John Bridges' Defence of the Government of the Church of England, 1587:

If they pay a penie or two pence more for the reddinesse of them..let them looke to that, a foole and his money is soone parted.

Apply accordingly..if the shoe fits....wear it.....I am not wearing "no stinking shoe!".. ;)


nicepuppy — December 10, 2013 at 6:57 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Something for all of you who don't share their real name on the C, to ponder...

Has anybody checked to see that when you are paying for monthly access to the daily bitchin' basement, will your actual name show up? Will the forum and FB comment sections then combine as one?

Seems to me, it's a risky venture, utilizing your CC to pay for access to an online news site...especially when it's constantly being attacked by spammers (yes, my security system lets me know). Now, the risk of identity theft will be even higher for each and every one of you. Might I recommend the pay-as-you-go credit cards available at the local grocers if you're so inclined to PAY for your freedom of expression???

Manthou, you are diligent in your efforts regarding this new format and your words are heartfelt...and I truly appreciate that. You are conscientious and you care. That speaks volumes about you. I will miss sharing in hearty discussion with you and the others...but life is full of changes. This just happens to be one change I will refuse to acknowledge. As long as I have free access, albeit very limited for me...I will stick around but when they make it a permanent access at a price without the 30 visits, I'm gone. There's something definitely wrong with society when we have to PAY to have our voices heard. Didn't our forefathers pay enough for us???

Anyway guys, good to know many will still post.

nailingit — December 9, 2013 at 7:51 p.m.

Many??? Who is this...Many???

And finally...for those of us who are unwilling to pay...
Every time the captcha letters are incorrect, are we losing 1 of 30???

goldenoldie — December 10, 2013 at 7:07 a.m. ( | suggest removal

hawkeye — December 10, 2013 at 6:30 a.m. and December 9, 2013 at 9:47 p.m.

Thanks for the heads up on driving conditions. Drive safely!

Lew-Lou, versus Lu Lu??? Easily understood why you think it sounds like a girl's name. It's a Loo Loo, ain't it!!!

nicepuppy — December 10, 2013 at 6:57 a.m.

Well stated, pups. I'll wear my OWN shoes. Somehow, accepting shoes from a tightwad who can't manage his own financial headaches is like accepting candy from Chemical Ali.

luvithere — December 9, 2013 at 6:28 p.m.

Here's an idea...why don't we all switch over to Lew Waters' site? They just looove diversity in discussions...8P

goldenoldie — December 10, 2013 at 7:15 a.m. ( | suggest removal

goldie: Thanks for your kind words. I won't ever pay for The Seattle Times, so I get where you are coming from. I donate to Crosscut, because I believe that site, which is free, has very many good statewide issues they cover responsibly. Good public comment opportunities.

Another state political site for free content? Publicola at SeattleMet.

When the Seattle Times started their very expensive paywall, The Stranger started a discussion thread called "the Free Seattle Times." Under that heading, was a growing list of where to get local news for free.

I will add Vancouver Vector to that list. Willamette Week, too. Oregonlive does not have a paywall yet. And all the local TV stations have news and breaking news.

No one but the C has nicepuppy and the Forum, though. :)

manthou — December 10, 2013 at 7:28 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Well, thanks for that nice wind up my you know what manthou.....hahahahah but....this forum ought to remain free for all willing participants I say....We have put the hours, the opinions, the research and even the BS to be entitled to life time free membership....don't you think? Keep your money. You may need it some day....multiply it...

As I said before and rerouting some wind up yours, your contributions are truly appreciated! Same for you GD, some wind up your old pipes too. How classy huh?

;) Hahahahah

nicepuppy — December 10, 2013 at 9:44 a.m. ( | suggest removal

nicepuppy: I always appreciate the role you play here and have said so many times. You do put forth some good ideas.

Website Woes:

The C is working with their contract website administrator in fixing the payment "glitch." It is set, currently, to take only the fake "test" credit card number. That's why we were getting the error message when we tried to pay.

No publicity about this on their site, however. Just taking the calls and questions as they come.

manthou — December 10, 2013 at 9:46 a.m. ( | suggest removal

I also told them that one of their phone operators, who was very, very polite and nice, asked me, "Why would you need the online version if you have the E-Edition?"

I had to explain the FB and Forum and breaking news concepts to a Columbian employee. Yikes. If you try to talk customers out of services, you are doomed. Also, I was told I had to use the website to sign up. The one that won't take our money. :)

manthou — December 10, 2013 at 6:36 a.m.

I called about an hour ago and experienced the same. A really nice lady but hadn't a clue about the new service or the site problems. After going round & round about this and a that, and frustration had set in, (although admirably controlling my dismay:) she interrupted and said she had just been informed of website difficulties and will call me back-about an hour ago.

I understand problems happen with something new, but when a staff meeting or a memo could solve much of this it causes one to wonder. I was already on the E-edition (letting it lapse as I found myself never using it) and wanted to cancel that and sign up for on-line and......and......

It wasn't letting me on their website prior to the call, now obviously it is, even though there hasn't been any monetary exchange. Truly strange.

I'm wondering why the folks at the subscriber desk haven't realized things are changing. No staff meetings? Wondering if they read the product they work for?.....:))

I think I'll buy one of Lou's cups and give it to him!

nailingit — December 10, 2013 at 10:30 a.m. ( | suggest removal

nailingit: The head honchos know (publisher and editor) and the message has been delivered to the folks manning the phone. I truly forgot the name of the person who was helping me yesterday, which is good, so no one person is singled out.

Think about the value in this lesson: now the C knows how Obama feels about the ACA website glitches. Well, maybe a little more sympathetic?

manthou — December 10, 2013 at 11:12 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Something to consider.

Before having my card rejected last night I read all the different options. One for current hard copy customers was to buy the website access at $1 per month for either 6 months or 12 months. That sounded reasonable, and I was going to continue the hard copy subscription.

To do this, I had to link my accounts. It appeared that by doing so I was also going to be accepting their auto billing option. (I prefer paying by check - I'm old fashioned that way. Besides, that makes cutting a service easier on me.) So, eventually I'll have to call to get answers.

roger — December 10, 2013 at 11:13 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Hello all. I remember when the day the paper went to a $1.00 not that long ago but oh well. I called and spoke with Mr. Campbell, very nice and cordial talk. I said you've raised the price twice in the 6 months, he responded nope just once, I said nope you went from $.35 to $.50cents and now to a dollar. He forgot they had the paper priced at .35 for a short while. I used to get the paper until the paper boy started getting stronger and I was finding my paper all over, sometimes even on the roof....LOL.. He then went on to ask, so if we went to an all internet paper would you subscribe, that was just after the times had gone internet... I said possibly. He then asked how much would you spend? I said maybe a couple bucks a month. He said they were looking more at something in the .50 a day range.. He had just come back from some newspaper conference. So here we are about to embark into a new era in our community and basement....Like most I probably won't spend the $18 a month, just doesn't feel good. But oh well times a changing I guess, We’ll see. I just want to say to everyone here I have enjoyed everyone, and YES NAIL I believe Obama is an American:)here, and have learned more about our local scene than I could have received anywhere else. I've also learned from many why they believe in what they do and to except that as they except where I come from. Difference in opinions is healthy; being able to share them here is awesome. Until and we get kicked off take care all.

vanwadreamer — December 10, 2013 at 11:23 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Vanwa I would hope you would stay. We don't always agree as that is the way with all of us. But you always add something to the discussion. You still will have 30 hits a month if you choose to not signup. We have a good group here.

timerick — December 10, 2013 at 11:32 a.m. ( | suggest removal

VanWa, we might disagree on politics, but I liked your post and hope you will be back.We need and want different opinions! Glad to hear you are not a birther LOL.

That goes for Goldie, too, I hope you will reconsider. And everybody else who wants to leave. We are so diverse, it's been a pleasure discussing and bitching AND getting ticked off at times. forgiveness is good.

Hope to see you all around here. I am waiting until they fixed their problems and then we shall see. And yea, Nails, if the C cannot even roll out this little thing without all these glitches, I expect them to shut up about the health insurance site.

luvithere — December 10, 2013 at 11:35 a.m. ( | suggest removal

I'm going to wait and see what happens when you guys finally 'subscribe.' I really would like to retain my anonymity. If I can't do that...well, I dunno.

The reasons are two fold. The first is because from time to time I mention activities related to cannabis that could make me a target for thieves. Oh, it wouldn't take a whole lot of sleuthing to learn my name, address and phone number, but I don't care to make it easy.

The second is purely marketing. Yes, that's what I wrote. So what. My blog is Capn Drift, my book is authored by Cap'n Drift and the next will be by Drift. I want Cap'n Drift to be in the top five hits on a search engine. Because I'm an activist who wants to be read, and an author wanting the same. The book stuff even helps with my beer budget.

My 'card' is sitting right there. Once things get 'fixed' and I see what happens with you guys I'll make a decision.

Drift — December 10, 2013 at 11:39 a.m. ( | suggest removal

vanwa- It's always great to agree to disagree. Everyone has a right to be wrong. :)

Sounds like everyone will still get 30 free site hits and I hope many will still engage.

Drift- I've seen nothing that speaks to anything other than remaining anonymous other than goldenoldies comment.

Still waiting for that call callback from the C.

nailingit — December 10, 2013 at 12:45 p.m. ( | suggest removal

I haven't kept up with the 30 "free" site hits can anyone explain..

vanwadreamer — December 10, 2013 at 1:09 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Apparently, we "get" to view 30 pages per month for free. So, I'm assuming, you could come to this page once a day and be OK. After that, you'll have to pay $1 per day or $18 per month. Like I said before, I'd go for $9 per month, it only seems fair since you don't get the whole paper.

DID YOU HEAR THAT LOU??? $9.00 PER MONTH SEEMS FAIR!!! And I'll bet even the puppy would pay that.

hawkeye — December 10, 2013 at 1:41 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Well so far I haven't gotten any pop ups telling me about having to pay I have no idea if I have "used" any of the 30 free.
I am going to be one that refuse to pay. I just can't see paying $18 a month, that money can be better spent for food to give to the food bank or help buy a pair a shoes for a kid in need.
If they are going to give 30 free, I'll use those, if not..oh well there are many other sites out there that are free I use.

ELISI — December 10, 2013 at 1:46 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Just got the email from The Columbian. Our money is good there now. :)

Drift: This website will not change and you will not be unmasked. Promise.

manthou — December 10, 2013 at 1:46 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Ok, that took a bit...

The site finally took my card. Curious problem but think the company who set up the pay part did not close the test code screen...something that's mighty inconvient for all concerned.

vanwadreamer @ l:09 pm. Initially I thought it'd be 30 visits to the Columbian as free, but burned through my 20 I had left were left in less than two days. Every time the screen is changed is a count apparently. Even think 'refresh' counts. When I called this AM to talk credit card problems with a woman name Brenda, I did mention I had looked for a Frequently Asked Questions but found none. That would help.

jacjak — December 10, 2013 at 2:44 p.m. ( | suggest removal

It looks like the Columbians new program has hit the face book side also. Very few comments over their today. The C miss's some things or they are a day late on some articles, but I looked at the Oregonian this afternoon and didn't really see much to catch my eye. I will stay here with the rest of the basement trolls. It is more interesting.

timerick — December 10, 2013 at 4:46 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Drift and Manthou it looks like we have 3 pot places in our neighborhood. 1 to sell on 27 and Harney 1 to sell on 39th and main minit mart and 1 to produce 1900 w39th st. I still have room to warehouse Drift rent is cheap.

timerick — December 10, 2013 at 4:57 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Heh, thanks, time but I'm just hoping the legislature will allow me to continue growing my little bonsai plants as I have these last seven years. "Bonsai" and "production" are at somewhat different ends of the spectrum.

I'll wind up subscribing, manthou. At least for one go-round. Right now I'm running a little experiment to see if I can game the system. No, I'm not a thief. I simply enjoy finding answers to problems. Heck, there was a time I got paid a decent wage for spending time doing just that - finding the 'way around.' Anyone who's read that book knows I'm a bit of a troubler maker. Heh.

Even if my work-around works, I'll give them my money. Anything else -would be- thieving. And that aint my cup 'o tea.

The change will be interesting, eh? Some folks here have said they will be gone. That's a bummer. Though I only tend to write about 'dope' I -do- read all of the comments. Well, except for those of one or two current commenters. For me it's like talking politics, without talking politics. I simply observe. And learn.

Who will the new names be? Will this change bring new names, or will the Forum wither?
I'll stay tuned. For a while, anyway.

Drift — December 10, 2013 at 5:49 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Wow - what an experience. I called Subscriptions to ask my earlier questions - The people there are apparently in the "learn as you go" mode too. I paid on-line for the "loyal subscriber" 12 months web access for $12 special. I explained that I paid for the hard copy by check, just paid for 6 months and have 5 left, and wanted to know if by linking my accounts (as I had to) how billing would work when it was time for hard copy renewal? Would I have them automatically bill my card, or could I continue to pay by check (my preference)? The nice lady had to ask someone, and then said she thought I could still pay by check if that's what I want. This was an about 5 minute conversation, and I was sufficiently frustrated that I forgot the second question - is this 12 month/$12 plan a one time offer, or will it continue as long as I get the hard copy?

I'm not liking this proposal the sheriff's department is pushing to control the homeless panhandler population. As The C's editorial implies, all they'll accomplish is making more laws that the department does not have the manpower to enforce, in an attempt to try to run those people off. My biggest problem, though, is to have law enforcement claiming they're an agent for change. So were the Brownshirts, who also decided they should run some undesirables off. (Too bad people aren't commenting on the facebook side; I imagine this comparison I made there too would raise a few hostile responses.) Anyhow, I thought this was supposed to be recommended at today's County Board meeting, but I didn't see it on their CVTV taping.

roger — December 10, 2013 at 5:59 p.m. ( | suggest removal

The only price this pup is going to pay is called "Free" or on my merry way I go. it is a matter of principles people. We have given his rag a hell of a lot of time on a daily basis for years. it is time that they recognize our contribution.

I can't believe some of you giving money for making them successful with your time and contributions. It makes no sense to me but their greed and lack of apreciation coupled with your stupidity. i guess a cup is not on order because that would be further ambiguity for some of you.

Whenever the kick on the a$$ comes in my case, I will take it with pride. Never surrender to greed, never! I will find better things to do and always for free because free is the only price I am willing to pay....especially when it is my time, my blah blah and my contempt against corruption. in time alone, The Columbian owes us big time!

nicepuppy — December 10, 2013 at 6:35 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Roger I just had the C add it to my hard copy subscription. Just for the first 6 months of which I have 4 left. Sure has cut down on the face book side,not near as many comments. Manthou watch your neihborhood the C reports more burglaries in the Carter Park area. My wife saw a couple of youth walking through yesterday on Easter and 28th. Had never seen them here before. One was white and one black. She keeps everything locked, gates and doors. I don't think they could make it past my dogs. I told her to call 911 if she sees strangers. We know most who live around here after 20 plus years.

timerick — December 10, 2013 at 6:45 p.m. ( | suggest removal

The Columbian owes us big time! -- nicepuppy — December 10, 2013 at 6:35 p.m.

Dog, the Columbian doesn’t owe you a thing. It’s a business decision on their part, and one which may be required for them to stay in business. They quit printing free obits a while ago and my only complaint about that was that many WWII vets were dying, and maybe the price of an obit would be too much for some, and that maybe an obit which recognized their service during those times, may have been the only public recognition they ever received. I wish the Columbian could have done something about that but they didn’t, and they have reasons for whatever they do. Maybe it really isn’t a big problem anyway. Don’t know .

I cancelled my paper edition years ago. I will likely not subscribe to the online version over my dislike of their one sided presentation of too many things, as I see it. Haven’t decided yet. Instead of belly aching over everything, go get yourself into a business and find out what it takes to make things work. You haven’t a clue, and have made that painfully clear every time you display your truly naïve, paper and pencil thinking. Naïve, back seat driving and totalitarian. But you’ve got plenty of company there, dog:)

kn_dalai — December 10, 2013 at 7:26 p.m. ( | suggest removal

kn-dalai you can't leave me here by myself. You and I are about the only right leaning ones here. Some are close. Nail will probably get me over to the dark side. I might be able to swing Manthou but it will require work.

timerick — December 10, 2013 at 8:06 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Yep, Tim - Got to watch out. You're going to be keeping an eye on Nails, and meanwhile Manthou is going to be sneaking up on you.

I've got two pot stores in walking distance - One at 4th Plain and Covington, and one over near the B&I; plaza at 117th Ave and 4th Plain. But I doubt that if I were to get the desire to partake that they'd ever get any business from me - I hate being ripped off.

roger — December 10, 2013 at 8:31 p.m. ( | suggest removal

timerick — December 10, 2013 at 8:06 p.m


May the force be with you:)

kn_dalai — December 10, 2013 at 8:33 p.m. ( | suggest removal

You may talk o' gin and beer
When you're quartered safe out 'ere,
An' you're sent to penny-fights an' Aldershot it;
But when it comes to slaughter
You will do your work on water,
An' you'll lick the bloomin' boots of 'im that's got it.
(Kipling, Gunga Din)

roger — December 10, 2013 at 8:46 p.m. ( | suggest removal

How much is it going to cost us for the Benton hire. What would happen to these law suits if he were to resign now. Would they be dropped? Sometimes it is better to walk softly but still carry the big stick. I don't think Madore understands that. Changes needed to be made but somethings take time and thought. I don't think that happened. I wish I knew what the puppy knows about the county. He talks around the fringes but doesn't bring the whole thing out.

timerick — December 10, 2013 at 8:58 p.m. ( | suggest removal

I had a chance to view some of the BoCC meeting today. Tuned in just as Benton was finishing up. Actually, it’s the first time I’ve ever heard him speak. He didn’t sound combative, nor did he pick up a trident as he exited. The thing I’ve wondered is, about a class action lawsuit from others who feel they were denied a fair shot at that job. Not sure where the issue of legal standing by plaintiffs would be in all of this. Just wondering.

Benton has no degree in environmental science, but the function of DES director is that of administrator. Never say never, but from what I’ve looked up, hospital administrators are seldom, if ever, medical doctors, as their organizational skills don’t require being competent in performing open heart surgery, and I’d think the same thing would apply to administrators of other organizations. I’d guess that some might even become disgruntled by bosses with a great resume of formal education in their area of expertise, but who turn out to be terrible administrators due to incompetence in organizational skills, to include dealing with people, and dealing with bureaucracy, especially of the government variety.

kn_dalai — December 10, 2013 at 9:37 p.m. ( | suggest removal


You are delirious! Administrate what? Professional people that actually do their job compared to the "fake it until you make it" type of approach? On our dime because the guy is a "friend"? Hmmmmm

You nuts and it reflects on all the other nonsense you wrote...

nicepuppy — December 10, 2013 at 10:09 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Yes. Of course.

Now just what business is it that you’re going to start? I think it has something to do with leading by example. Let us know how that works out:):):)

It’s time for dogs to lay down and rest:):):) Past your bedtime init?


kn_dalai — December 10, 2013 at 10:27 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Understanding for what I paid to subscribe for 6 months of the C, that I could have housed 12 homeless Mexicans, supplied 19 doses of antibiotic medication for 7 Asian massage workers, fed 14 feral cats for 3 months, clothed 2 senior on-call Portland strippers, and partridged my pear tree, I went ahead and made this Godless self serving decision. I can feel the flames of hell licking at my feet as I type.


I've always thought it to be ridiculous reasoning to think if both sides are upset with a deal, then it must be a good one.

At least something got done. (that would be in the ridiculous resignation department)

///House, Senate negotiators reach budget deal///

nailingit — December 10, 2013 at 10:40 p.m. ( | suggest removal

wow. GREAT christmas winter !!

the pond in my back yard is 95% frozen over...yesterday it was ice. today it looks like an iceberg.

all the ducks are sitting on the edge of the snow, next to the moving water. i fed them a sleeve of crackers yesterday, and they're looking like they're waiting for the next serving. they are quiet, something unusual. mallards, woods and this black and white one..don't remember the name.

i love winters :)

DeeLittle — December 11, 2013 at 1:35 a.m. ( | suggest removal

anybody notice venus in the evening sky? magical.

DeeLittle — December 11, 2013 at 1:38 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Strange conversation on the contract with TriMet at the C-Tran Board meeting last night. (I was only half listening at first, so I may have missed something.) Madore was trying to amend something (previous meeting minutes?) to clarify exactly how the contract was discussed and/or introduced during the October Board meeting. I gathered that he was trying to show that the contract was a done deal when it was being briefed to the Board. Someone (either Hamm or the attorney) kept insisting that the contract hadn't been signed yet. That same person also commented that the contract was at the meeting for their review. This part caught my attention for two reasons. First is that a previous statement was made that the contract was there but wasn't introduced due to the contentious nature of the debate among Board members. Second is Chairman Ganley's earlier statement that this (from briefing to next day contact signing by Hamm) went a lot faster than he expected.

That whole deal is smelling worse than a fish market at closing time.

roger — December 11, 2013 at 5:18 a.m. ( | suggest removal

timerick — December 9, 2013 at 4:26 p.m. --- "Like I said this like a recreation for me. I don't travel and I don't gamble. So I will do this."

manthou — December 9, 2013 at 7:43 p.m. --- "We're hooked, let's face it, like junkies."

jacjak — December 10, 2013 at 2:44 p.m.

Drift — December 10, 2013 at 5:49 p.m. --- "Even if my work-around works, I'll give them my money. Anything else -would be- thieving."

nailingit — December 10, 2013 at 10:40 p.m. --- "I went ahead and made this Godless self serving decision."

Also a few others (luvithere, for example) sound like they'll be sticking.

And me Dec 10 about 1730 --- My e-mail receipt for the transaction shows it as order #10. If that's it for the day, then they're probably sweating at The C, hoping that more come around. Wonder if this group is going to be able to push the "loyal subscriber" business and finally be able to comment anonymously to the news articles?

roger — December 11, 2013 at 5:41 a.m. ( | suggest removal

DeeLittle — December 11, 2013 at 1:35 a.m.

You really shouldn't feed the ducks in the winter. They need to go South and if they think they can get food easily here, they won't leave. What happens if you run out or decide to not feed them for a day or two? Send them on their way, Dee. I know it's difficult but that the way of nature. Also, crackers aren't really good for them. Unless you are using it for stuffing.

hawkeye — December 11, 2013 at 6:51 a.m. ( | suggest removal

*** Bark of the Day! ***

So I read every page and every word from the lawsuit that a citizen brought against Clark County in Superior Court as reported by the Columbian.

I am in awe. In awe about how careless and disrespectful of the law together with negligent Clark County Officials are. Those people have "unavoidable" responsibilities under the law. That is the "essence" of their function and reason to exist.

If you read the document, "allegedly", these bureaucrats broke every law/regulation that was put in place regarding the Public Records Release Request.

How could this happen? Seriously! How could this happen? Was I right all along went I blew the whistle? Hell yes, I was. I went through that process myself. Although I got documents galore, the important ones were withheld or they claimed they did not exist or kept, like "all emails" and "phone records". Who knows about the number of emails unless the email database can be queried with its transaction logging records and made available to the requester of the information? The County Administrator and the people involved in the public records request have a "monopoly" on what is evaluated and what is released. In other words, there is no outside independent party making that determination. Or in other words, the fox doing his fox thing in the chicken coop. How is that right, transparent and fair? I say?

Anyway, Bill Barron to me is a shameless individual. He ran for the hills when he ought to assume the responsibility himself, tell the truth and turn in the "other law breakers" to a court of law.

This is awful people. It speaks tons about on going corruption. On one side Madonis bragging about his transparency and on the other a lawsuit bringing to public attention the on going corruption. How could we live in "parallel universes" here?

Am I going nuts? I don't think so. Nor I think that the lawsuit is unreasonable. We need to fight back. Kudos to the plaintiff and the attorney for having the courage to start to bring down this monster of corruption that is Clark County. They need all our public support.



You make several "ass-umptions". As I said before, you have shown a pattern of mental instability especially in days past and your candidacy delusion. Your new shenanigans are a waste of everybody's time. Move on, I don't care what your imagination tells you...


nicepuppy — December 11, 2013 at 7:02 a.m. ( | suggest removal

*** Second Bark of the day! ***

Unemployment statistics, the big lie.

This guy analyzed the unemployment numbers and wrote a of his one liners is...

"This is the jobs profile of the American super economy. It is the profile of India 30 or 40 years ago."

I can't even laugh, but cry, when local charlatans brag about the County's employment growth. It just makes no sense. Again, the parallel universe words come up. What planet do they live in? Why do you have to cook the numbers to validate your own bull$hit I ask?

I am convinced that most people have had a virtual lobotomy performed on them. Either they are so damned medicated or under some sort of chemical influence or they are completely stupid to believe local, regional or national statistics so blind and not saying or doing squat.

It is like the weather guy (that never loses his job by the way), that tells that it is going to be sunny, it is sunny and it will be sunny when we slobs walking down the street are caught in a storm. The other good one these charlatans try to pull of is that the weather will always give us a break on the to build up hope so you make your spending money plans, to have them all ruined when reality hits...

Crazy... people, Crazy!

What other choice has an intelligent, reasonable human being but to withdraw from this nightmare described as "their fake reality" that they want to impose "on us"?

nicepuppy — December 11, 2013 at 8:11 a.m. ( | suggest removal

roger: My receipt (I finally signed on this morning), tells me that I am transaction #17. We will see how this goes for the C. I like paying by check, too, roger, but cancellation is just a mouse click away.

I am traveling to see the cutest 2 year old grandson in the world and missed both BOCC and C-Tran meetings yesterday. Thank goodness for CVTV. Where there are politicians, there is always spin and cover-your-tracks activity. Both sides.

New lawsuit against the CC: Ed Ruttledge is a former HR Director and I enjoy his perspective that he shares on FB and C3G2. His public records lawsuit should not have had to happen if the county had obeyed state law. Just shows us how they regard the law. My husband cautioned me this morning: we are essentially suing ourselves because our tax dollars are paying for the defense of these fools.

Remember what I said when Madore was elected and formed that unholy alliance with Mielke? It would cost us more in defense fees than M and M promised to save us. I want an accounting of the outflow so far.

tim and roger: what makes you think YOU won't influence ME? :) Or that you haven't already? :D

manthou — December 11, 2013 at 8:22 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Wonder if this group is going to be able to push the "loyal subscriber" business and finally be able to comment anonymously to the news articles?

roger — December 11, 2013 at 5:41 a.m.

I hope so roger, but doubt it. Avatarial anonymity discrimination seems to have a stronghold in this publication. I signed up late evening last night and was #13. Don't know how they do their numbering system, but wouldn't doubt they keep us basement folk separate.


manthou — December 11, 2013 at 8:22 a.m.

Have fun with your grandson manthou. Nothing better in the world. Be safe.

nailingit — December 11, 2013 at 8:37 a.m. ( | suggest removal


In a country under the rule of law, breaking the laws is not acceptable. It is even worst if our authorities do. They are supposed to be held to even higher standards.

If you break the law and get away with it, anarchy sets in and everybody is potential game even to the unthinkable. We as citizens, can not let that happen even if we end up paying the bill.

We need to cut our loses and the sooner, the better.. All implicated in this fiasco ought to be exposed and punished.

So, taking a stance of let it go so we save some money, it is like saying...let's no go to war, we may get hurt. Let the enemy rape, maim, kill us and steal our territory , fighting it is too high of a cost.

No can do Miss! We fight until the crooks are in jail or gone!

nicepuppy — December 11, 2013 at 8:55 a.m. ( | suggest removal

nicepuppy: I agree with you about doing what it takes to force government to follow the law. It is always money well-spent.

If we start gifting jobs based on ooey-gooey criteria like "raised an Eagle Scout" or "presents well in public meetings" we violate policies and procedures meant to quantify and objectify the hiring decision and we violate Federal laws meant to even the playing field.

This is less and less about Benton, and more and more about the procedures used to settle his soft round butt in the DES Director chair. Benton is not on trial, Clark County is.

manthou — December 11, 2013 at 9:11 a.m. ( | suggest removal

My song for the Clark County elected officials and administrators that are corrupted and ruining this place....

At some point someone has to stand up and clean house. In the old days, they would be hang, or jailed or showed them the state line....

It is long overdue....

nicepuppy — December 11, 2013 at 10:01 a.m. ( | suggest removal

*** Third Bark of the Day! ***

Lookin’ out across this town,
Kind o’ makes me wonder how,
All the things that made us great,
Got left so far behind.

This used to be a peaceful place:
Decent folks, hard working ways.
Now they hide behind locked doors,
Afraid to speak their mind.

I think we need a gunslinger,
Somebody tough to tame this town.
I think we need a gunslinger,
There’ll be justice all around.

Someone let the fences go,
Wild-eyed bunch moved in, ya know,
Shootin’ up the streets shoutin’, “Everybody down,”
The dogs all runnin’ loose.

Wrecked the paper, closed the school,
Tired old judge got roughed up too.
No one left to make a stand;
They whisper, “What’s the use?”

John Forgerty, Gunslinger

Yes indeed people. I am so sick and tired of this local menace called the Three Stooges and their cronies that It is shocking to me that they are still holding their positions to take advantage of the citizens lack of tools to remove them swiftly from power. The Freeholders have a supreme responsibility and that is to make sure the regulation is there to immediately fire an elected official or administrator if they break the law, rules, ethics, etc.

That they have not resigned to date, to me, means that their moral and ethical compass is not the same. That puts them in a whole different category in my eyes.

I think that they want to create a crisis on purpose and alter the peace of the community. It will back fire because at the end, the truth will prevail and the crooks will be in jail. (no rhyme intended...) I believe in the common good and the people in the end as a whole will turn their backs and render them rogue, outlaw and for justice or destiny to deal with them.

Their corrupted legacy will be the only thing they will be remembered for...a sad existence if you ask me...

Their families will have great sorrow for not controlling their disparate egos....

nicepuppy — December 11, 2013 at 10:51 a.m. ( | suggest removal

The work-around didn't. I was doing the 'reload page' thing, just out of curiosity mind you.

So I ponied up the 18 bones.

And when I tried to access the account it read the values I had just entered (during the subscription process) were not valid. Maybe the card has to clear before the subscription goes active? I sure as heck hope that's all it is. Sheesh.

Drift — December 11, 2013 at 10:58 a.m. ( | suggest removal

nicepuppy @ 7:02 & 8:11

Sure hope you're accessing this media cautiously, as what you say, and the vehemence you say it with adds value to the exchange. If you, or anyone using the free looks, hit the max of 30, the clock resets at the first of each month, so no riding into the sunset allowed.

About Clark Co. and the fine mess we've got ourselves into: as long as there are people willing to pay attention, attend, speak up and out, file lawsuits, write letters, and post endlessly, we've not failed anything, imo. It has always been so, no matter how far back we look. To assume '"most people have had a virtual lobotomy" because they are not pulsing or ranting or marching in the streets does not mean they are not aware of injustice or wrong doings. Nor are they 'The Libation Bearers' of Aeschylus hating and plotting the demise of who they themselves are while mouthing platitudes of love, either. We're not ancient Greeks, but just a lot of good people getting down the road, really.

So, the BIG job in Clark Co. seems to be in making all those with 'lobotomies' aware. How to do that? For some reason rural and bedroom communities of metropolitian areas have always been slower in this respect. They are more easily led by the hype of 'city-hate' or some weird jealousy of place, as tho where someone lives is a sort of competition in comparative ranking instead of personal preference. And, calling them 'stupid' or 'idiots' or 'lazy', etc. alienates further, and can leave one isolated instead of with whatever message they're trying to pass on.

War is not the only thing to be pacifist about. Measuring neighbors because of their philosophies, religious or political, is at some level, as unbeneficial as waging battle campaigns. Same with assuming those neighbors are ignorant or disengaged because their expressions don't resonate as loudly or as publically as the next guy.

I guess what I am saying, and badly, is l admire your level enthusiasm and zeal, but it's not for everyone, even those who are aware of problems. A doctor told me years ago that there were two types of people that he saw in his profession... race horses and plow horses. Race horses frisked and pranced and ran like the wind. But plow horses still got the job done, be it with less drama and flare. It takes all sorts of efforts to move an idea, or cause a change, or transform a county and especially to shed the crooks. We all fight in our own ways, don't dis on those ways may be more subtle.

jacjak — December 11, 2013 at 11:01 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Oh, and my email program tells me the Columbian's circulation department fails its fraud detection check. I was #20, BTW.

Drift — December 11, 2013 at 11:03 a.m. ( | suggest removal

jacjak: Love your doctor's horse analogy. :)

nicepuppy: For someone who has not ponied up for a digital subscription, you are still very visible here. Don't be ashamed if you join us in supporting our Forum culture by supporting the C. You are in the best of company. :)

I noticed a phenomenon with the Boards on which Madore participates. Some members may be voting NO just to make sure Madore does not get reinforced for any motions or resolutions. His motion to amend October C-Tran minutes with a direct quote instead of a paraphrase of that quote seemed harmless enough. But it went nowhere, a tie. Madore scolded something like: let it be known that this board voted against inserting exact quotes in the minutes.

No, that is not what happened. What happened, between the lines, is that some board members would rather eat nails than let you have a victory, David. Madore could compose a resolution that declared the world is round and he would not get a majority pass anymore.

How did this happen? He alienated colleagues he needs. He burned bridges.

manthou — December 11, 2013 at 11:34 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Bingo Manthou

I hear you Jacjak.

But this pup will never give in to black mail like the Columbian is forcing us to speak our minds. Reread Forgerty's song. It is all there.

This puppy bird must fly away now....

So long...

nicepuppy — December 11, 2013 at 12:02 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Looks like there was an email response from the county on Ron Goodman's harddrive. He's withdrawn his lawsuit, and may refile it later.

jacjak — December 11, 2013 at 12:50 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Opps, I meant Ed Ruttledge's lawsuit...

jacjak — December 11, 2013 at 1:46 p.m. ( | suggest removal

manthou — December 11, 2013 at 11:34 a.m.,

Are you sure you're not a politician? That's the same conversation I was talking about last evening at 5:18. The conversation had something to do with what was said at the October meeting where they OK'd Hamm to enter into negotiations with TriMet, and he had actually already had the contract prepared. By the time I started paying attention, they were at the point where Hamm kept insisting he had the contract there for the Board to review. (A statement in complete contradiction to his earlier claim that he didn't introduce it due to the contentious nature of the argument at the time.)

The vote was the usual breakdown - City Council and Ridgefield on one side against the others. Mielke was absent (hence the tie), and Stuart voted "Aye" in support of Madore.

Hamm got lucky, in my book. If that had gone on record, the next step would be to try to invalidate the contract due to him exceeding what the Board directed him to do. (In my opinion.)

roger — December 11, 2013 at 2:06 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Maybe I’m missing something here, but I thought that everything at these board meetings is on video and also transcribed to paper, for the record. I thought Madore’s point about some questionable wording in the minutes, was that a review of the minutes only could lead to misleading conclusions by the reader. Considering the way that the C-tran contract signing played out, I’d have thought they’d have opened themselves up to a legal challenge, but the only one who brought that up was C. Crain. I’m wondering if the County has a legal standing to pursue that.

kn_dalai — December 11, 2013 at 6:11 p.m. ( | suggest removal

You're a liar, NO, you're a liar, NO!, you're a liar, NO!!! YOU'RE a liar, NO!!!!, I'M a liar...... OH CRAP, now what?

hawkeye — December 11, 2013 at 7:16 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Now what?

"What happened, between the lines, is that some board members would rather eat nails than let you have a victory, David." --- Manthou

If that premise is a good one, then we can expect to see the city moratorium withdrawn any time now.

roger — December 11, 2013 at 7:24 p.m. ( | suggest removal

hawkeye @7:16

Wow, I counted 5 (that's five!!) 'we's in one sentence. How is that even possible??! Isn't speaking about yourself in the plural the sign of something? Then again, maybe I'm mixing Royals complexes with Napoleon complexes. By substituting a 'I' in place of all the 'we's makes it more about what it's most like more about...elections.

jacjak — December 11, 2013 at 8:28 p.m. ( | suggest removal

That has to be one of the funniest APIL stories yet. Once more, the kinglet looks stupid.
My way or the highway.

luvithere — December 11, 2013 at 9:28 p.m. ( | suggest removal

hawkeye — December 11, 2013 at 7:16 p.m.

Before he began his foray into local politics, no doubt most saw him as a reasonable and respectable human being. Now, he's become nothing more than a corrupt clown to most, an object of ridicule and scorn. I have to think if he had this whole elected thing to do again he wouldn't. Maybe politics bring out in a person who they truly are.

And on the lighter side of's supposed to warm up soon...

nailingit — December 11, 2013 at 10:20 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Food For Thought

///Corporate Democrats freak out over Elizabeth Warren threat///

The idea that Social Security is about to go bankrupt is just completely false. It’s currently running a $2.8 trillion surplus, a surplus that’s expected to rise even higher by 2020.

But while Social Security is working fine, our retirement system is failing—almost half of retirees have less than $10,000 in savings.

And as everyone learned back in 2008 when the financial system collapsed, the 401(k)’s that many Americans now rely on to make ends meet when they leave their jobs are risky and unstable.

To make matters worse, it’s not like pension plans are any safer either. Just ask any retired Detroit firefighter for proof of that.

Reasons like this, coupled with the reality of the increasing cost of living, are why Senator Warren wants to increase Social Security payments using a formula called CPI-E.

Using CPI-E would only result in about a $56 dollar increase for seniors receiving Social Security checks in 2013, but it’s a good start that could be paid for by simply raising the maximum payroll tax so that the wealthy pay as much into the system as everyday people do.

And what’s more, just acknowledging that the current system needs to be expanded would be enough to change the debate about Social Security and could get policymakers thinking about new ways to make the program more effective for seniors.

So Elizabeth Warren is right. We need to expand Social Security. But she’s only got half the story. If we really want to not only protect retirees and the economy but also increase job opportunities for young people entering the job market we should go even further.

We should do what I’ve proposed doing for years: lower the retirement age to 55 and increase benefits by 10 to 20 percent so that they match up with what they were back in the 1960s.

Doing so wouldn’t just save seniors from an uncertain retirement—it would also jump-start the economy. By allowing Baby Boomers to retire early, we would open their jobs to young people struggling to start their careers.

At the same time, we would tighten the labor market so much that wages would actually rise, in turn stimulating the economy. And as wages rose, so too would tax revenues. In other words, that 10 to 20 percent benefit increase would pay for itself, and reduce the deficit!

The solution to our retirement crisis is clear: take Elizabeth Warren’s proposal to expand Social Security and crank it up a few notches.

Read more @

nailingit — December 11, 2013 at 11:07 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Bernie Sanders is also raising hell about the proposed change to how the CPI is determined (which didn't survive this round of budget negotiations). Per his site, "...a so-called chained CPI, in a way which would have resulted in significant cuts in benefits. The average 65-year-old retiree would lose $658 a year in Social Security benefits by their 75th birthday; $1,147 by their 85th birthday; and $1,622 by their 95th birthday. Permanently disabled veterans who started receiving disability benefits from the VA at age 30 would see their benefits cut by more than $1,400 a year at age 45, $2,300 a year at age 55 and $3,200 a year at age 65."

I suppose this area is going to require a little more research.

roger — December 12, 2013 at 5:22 a.m. ( | suggest removal

An explanation of the chained CPI from WashPost last April. It seems Pres Obama's budget proposal contained it as a way to "move to the middle" and gain Repub support.

"Social Security benefits are currently calculated using CPI-W, or the Consumer Price Index for Urban Wage Earners and Clerical Workers. Over time, benefit levels tick up based on CPI-W, to keep up with the fact that a dollar twenty years ago is not worth what it is today.
Here’s the bottom line: Using chained CPI instead of CPI-W means the rate at which those benefits tick up would be slower, because the former reflects substitutions consumers would make in response to rising prices of certain items.Therein lies the “chained” part of the name. The metric utilizes a basket of goods and services that are measured changes from month to month; much like a daisy chain. If the cost of a certain form of transportation goes up, for example, people might switch to another kind. This kind of “substitution” is part of what is factored into chained CPI.
Overall, the change would save the federal government about $130 billion over the next decade.

roger — December 12, 2013 at 5:31 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Elizabeth Warren is supporting another variation of how the CPI is calculated called the CPI-E (per Nails' post). What little I turned up during a very short search is that the way the CPI is calculated would be changed once a person reaches 65 to focus more heavily on health care expenses. It seems to be considered "experimental" - possibly because it was just formulated a year or so ago? The only comment I found is that the CPI is going to grow at a slower rate as health care costs quit growing so fast.

There are more ways to calculate the CPI than should be allowed - A person could probably get a degree in this field.

And the relevance to real life is that COLAs for Social Security, Veterans' benefits, and a few other things are tied to it.

And again, I'm late for getting ready for work. Tchuss.

roger — December 12, 2013 at 5:46 a.m. ( | suggest removal

nailingit@11:07 last night, roger@5:22, 5:31, & 5:46am today

It's true, then. Going against all we've known, it actually is possible to get blood out of a turnip. My oh my, the lenghts of parsing each and every avenue for taxable related opportunities are mind boggling.

And, why seperate 'urban wage earners and clerical workers' into two seperate catagories? Probably because clerical workers have always been just a step above minimally trained, if that, and not to be confused with skilled urban workers, which sounds way more sophisticated and upwardly mobile. Wonder which ones enters the medical codes into our health records?

jacjak — December 12, 2013 at 7:48 a.m. ( | suggest removal

In the process of watching the Dec 10 Freeholder meeting.

Citizen Heather Tischbein has garnered my attention through her FB posts and she has piqued my interest in author Tom Atlee. She presented copies of two of his books to the Freeholders during public comment Tuesday, while bemoaning the fact that so few citizens were in attendance (sorry, Heather, out of town with family).

Atlee's two books are touted by her as excellent models for citizen-led government. They are on my "to buy and read" list now.

Our Forum group is well-read and I am passing on the website links to Atlee's books. Some of the concepts, at a cursory glance, seem worthy of my time to explore. Maybe some of you would think so, too.

Empowering Public Wisdom:

The Tao of Democracy:

manthou — December 12, 2013 at 8:23 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Pay cuts, pensions robbed, no tax revenue, increased traveling fees, fractional jobs creation provisions, no extension of unemployment benefits--what a great deal. And many
republicans crying it gives too much.

Just listening to Blue Dog democrat OR rep Kurt Schrader (who won't vote for it) denounce this deal on C-SPAN as well. What a low bar we've set for deal making as this country goes further and further off the right wing austerity cliff. I know few are alive who could remember the great depression and the policies involved, but we have history books, as well as Europe's failed austerity actions as of late.

And I'm sure Pelosi will twist enough dem arms to get this through as Boehner is totally ineffective...

Another middle class body slam before congress returns home to deal with the little people.

Hunger Games could become a reality some day. Seriously.

nailingit — December 12, 2013 at 8:32 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Wonder which ones enters the medical codes into our health records?

jacjak — December 12, 2013 at 7:48 a.m

A disproportionate comparison, but I'm reminded of the scene in Schindler's List when a bag of gold filled teeth is dispensed at a table for a Jew to pick the fillings out.

nailingit — December 12, 2013 at 8:36 a.m. ( | suggest removal

There are more ways to calculate the CPI than should be allowed - A person could probably get a degree in this field.

roger — December 12, 2013 at 5:46 a.m.

Totally agree roger. The elephant in the room is, as always, tax reform. Until we deal with this monster and simplify things, (ha ha-as if that's going to happen) elephant dung will be a #1 job creator. Hope your pension isn't going to be hurt by this latest Ryan/Murray deal. I think they're focusing more on the younger gen to rob from. Kinda reminds me of Ryan's medical care voucher programs not applying to those over 55.


Noticing # posts of posts are down, I'm going to try and contribute a little more when able. (I can almost hear a collective sigh of disparity from our RW friends:)


A 'change up' for those of us who love the game of baseball. I have to agree with Charlie on this.

Seemingly our beloved sport is going by the way of PC T-Ball games. I wonder if the next change will be that managers have to play everyone on the bench before game's end...

///MLB Intends To Ban Home Plate Collisions With Rule Change And Pete Rose Can't Believe It///

LAKE BUENA VISTA, Fla. (AP) — Pete Rose sounded bowled over.

Charlie Hustle, who famously flattened Ray Fosse to score the winning run in the 1970 All-Star game, couldn't believe Major League Baseball intends to eliminate home-plate collisions by 2015 at the latest.

"What are they going to do next, you can't break up a double play?" Rose said in a telephone interview with The Associated Press after MLB announced its plan Wednesday.

"You're not allowed to pitch inside. The hitters wear more armor than the Humvees in Afghanistan. Now you're not allowed to try to be safe at home plate?" Rose said. "What's the game coming to? Evidently the guys making all these rules never played the game of baseball."

nailingit — December 12, 2013 at 9:12 a.m. ( | suggest removal

So, the WSLCB is more than willing to throw medicinal cannabis patients under the bus in an effort to capture more market share, but they would toss a wrench into the tourist market?

Hotel's aren't too keen on folks smoking (anything) in the rooms. An establishment serving microbrews and offering designer spliffs to puff on while enjoying a beverage would make bank. Put such an establishent near the Hilton (downtown) and it would benefit as well.

I say, quit trying to micromanage recreational cannabis and let the market manage itself. No, I'm not speaking of laws designed to discourage adolescent abuse, etc., etc. I'm speaking of business. Profit might well be tough to manage with all of the associated taxes. Let the entrepreneurs get creative. I'm thinking 502 will fail (from a dollars and cents standpoint) if the recreational cannabis trade is -too- restrictive (shrug).

Drift — December 12, 2013 at 9:32 a.m. ( | suggest removal

///The Donor Class and Streams of Dark Money///


The historian Plutarch warned us long ago of what happens when there is no brake on the power of great wealth to subvert the electorate.  “The abuse of buying and selling votes,” he wrote of Rome, “crept in and money began to play an important part in determining elections.  Later on, this process of corruption spread in the law courts and to the army, and finally, when even the sword became enslaved by the power of gold, the republic was subjected to the rule of emperors.”

We don’t have emperors yet, but we do have the Roberts Court that consistently privileges the donor class.

We don’t have emperors yet, but we do have a Senate in which, as a study by the political scientist Larry Bartels reveals, “Senators appear to be considerably more responsive to the opinions of affluent constituents than to the opinions of middle-class constituents, while the opinions of constituents in the bottom third of the income distribution have no apparent statistical effect on their senators’ roll call votes.”

We don’t have emperors yet, but we have a House of Representatives controlled by the far right that is now nourished by streams of “dark money” unleashed thanks to the gift bestowed on the rich by the Supreme Court in the Citizens United case.

We don’t have emperors yet, but one of our two major parties is now dominated by radicals engaged in a crusade of voter suppression aimed at the elderly, the young, minorities, and the poor; while the other party, once the champion of everyday working people, has been so enfeebled by its own collaboration with the donor class that it offers only token resistance to the forces that have demoralized everyday Americans.


Why are record numbers of Americans on food stamps? Because record numbers of Americans are in poverty. Why are people falling through the cracks? Because there are cracks to fall through. It is simply astonishing that in this rich nation more than 21 million Americans are still in need of full-time work, many of them running out of jobless benefits, while our financial class pockets record profits, spends lavishly on campaigns to secure a political order that serves its own interests, and demands that our political class push for further austerity. Meanwhile, roughly 46 million Americans live at or below the poverty line and, with the exception of Romania, no developed country has a higher percent of kids in poverty than we do.  Yet a study by scholars at Northwestern University and Vanderbilt finds little support among the wealthiest Americans for policy reforms to reduce income inequality.

Read more @

nailingit — December 12, 2013 at 9:44 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Drift @ 9:32 am: I could not agree with you more on the 502 over-regulation. The public somehow believes we can legislate perfection and we wind up with laws that do more harm than good. There are always some unintended consequences. Oops. Sorry. We really did not mean for THAT to happen……Back to the drawing board.

Knee-jerk laws that attempt to limit "bad" things that "might" happen make for poor public policy.

manthou — December 12, 2013 at 9:50 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Drift — December 12, 2013 at 9:32 a.m.

In upcoming elections we should insist on knowing where politicians stand on issues regarding pot's legality and use. Micro managing wrenches are many times disguised to prevent what many believe, is to allow a morally corrupt populace to participate in using this now legal drug.

Progressive laws are constantly mitigated by regressive politicians, and pot's legal standing is no different.

nailingit — December 12, 2013 at 10:07 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Which of the seven Freeholders neglected to complete their priorities survey and turn it in?

Seven out of 15 did not do so. I would like to know who.

Liz Pike, bless her transparency-lovin' soul, was the only one to admit to failing to turn the survey in. She did say that she read the materials, but the survey slipped her mind. Really? Whatever helps her save face. I appreciate her honesty.

I suspect one other Freeholder (don't remember who) who admitted he only checks his email weekly, may have been another neglectful one. He was advised: check your email daily now.

Rightly so, the priority decisions were made, therefore, based on only the 8 Freeholder surveys turned in. Lesson learned? Hope so.

BTW: Ann Rivers was absent and Jim Moeller arrived very late. :(

Out of the known Rs and Ds who are Freeholders, the Rs definitely spoke up and expressed themselves more (Liz Pike gets first place) through comment and questions. C'mon, D's. Be there, ready to roll or be square. I know this is non-partisan, but we know which side you all usually hang your hats.

I liked Joe Zarelli's insights and suggestions. I thought Nan Henricksen did a good job of facilitating a smooth and productive meeting, too.

manthou — December 12, 2013 at 11:01 a.m. ( | suggest removal

manthou @ 8:23 & 11:01
Think someone asked this already, but where and when is the Freeholder meetings? Is there a published schedule? And, where were you viewing it the AM?

jacjak — December 12, 2013 at 1:22 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Nail I am not a big fan of wealth redistribution but how much does one person have to have. One million,13 million, or billions? I know some of the most wealthy do very good things for people. But I do agree with you. Why do we as a nation have so many in extreme poverty. And the very wealthy sending their money to other country's while our own suffer right here. As a nation we send billions to every country that has any kind of disaster. And our people that have disasters have to grovel to the government for help. Something is wrong with that. I realize we are a global economy and what we do effects other country's. But I also believe that we should take care of our own and then help where we can.

timerick — December 12, 2013 at 2:02 p.m. ( | suggest removal

nailingit — December 12, 2013 at 9:12 a.m.

I saw Pete last month in Vegas. He was at a sporting good store at The Mandalay Bay. I walked in (he was on his cell), I looked at him and said, "Hey Pete, you was robbed". He winked at me and I left. He really wasn't looking good, put on a lot of weight.

hawkeye — December 12, 2013 at 2:11 p.m. ( | suggest removal

jacjak: All the Freeholder information is at this one link:

CVTV will be showing the meetings live after this week. All the documents and videos of past meetings are at the link above.

manthou — December 12, 2013 at 2:57 p.m. ( | suggest removal

nailingit — December 12, 2013 at 9:12 a.m.

No, it isn't going to matter to me. New federal employees will contribute a lot higher percentage of their pay toward retirement. And the hit on retirees is a bit laughable - a 1% reduction on the COLA raise for those under 62. (I'm not even sure we've gotten those increases the past few years - but I don't pay a lot of attention, so....)

We have record numbers on public assistance because we have few meaningful jobs for people with a high school education. We have no jobs because we allow corporations to relocate manufacturing, tech services, etc, to poor countries. Except for the educated and highly skilled, we have mainly a service sector job market. And you can't raise a family pushing coffee at Starbucks or changing sheets at the Hilton.

You can't blame that state of affairs on the current crop of Repub neoCons - it's been happening at least since the '60s.

roger — December 12, 2013 at 5:56 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Was at a birthday party recently where government & debt and things political came into the conversation. I was surprised to see the willingness to raise the SS wage base limit by 3 of the 5 or so guests who make waaaay over the $113,700 ceiling. Even more surprised because one of them is registered Republican. Perhaps it's about keeping the conversation going, and the reasonableness of a program that has been and continues to be very sucessful. Must be why Elizabeth Warren keeps talking about. Meanwhile, I maintain the whole big talk about retirement programs going broke is about Bush's privatization wish and all those 'private' accounts held by Wall Street. Gawd, their teeth probably ache just thinking about all that 'free' money with all those lovely investment fees.

jacjak — December 12, 2013 at 7:50 p.m. ( | suggest removal

timerick — December 12, 2013 at 2:02 p.m.

An overhaul of our tax code is long overdue. Many ways to bring fairness to our system with restructuring, just closing a few tax loopholes on bi-partisan private yachts and jets would help.

No one throws around money like the right. (think Reagan/Bush) The latest government shutdown alone cost us around 24 Billion and they think nothing of it.

I came across this site just now and haven't checked it out much yet. (But this site's got to be great. Any site that's called "Americans Against The Tea Party" aka AATTP has got to be rockin'! :))

When you get to thinking about "wealth redistribution", it happens from the time we're born in different degrees and different ways. Regarding the role of government in such is decided at the polls. Republicans just won't stop kicking and screaming. (some Dems also, but ideological differences tend to bend right when opposing) If the right really longs for the good ol' days, maybe we should be thinking along the lines of Eisenhower tax rates! :)


hawkeye — December 12, 2013 at 2:11 p.m.

I used to love watching Pete earn his nickname. I was a big Reds fan back in the day. The Big Red machine maybe the best baseball team/group ever. Concepcion was awe inspiring at short. Bench-Morgan-Griffey, Foster to the plate to put it somewhere in orbit...those were the days!


roger — December 12, 2013 at 5:56 p.m.

Good to hear. Although I can't think these latest changes are exactly a great recruitment tool for our volunteer military. And yeah, we need to bring our jobs home. There are ways to do this if both parties would have the will & resolve to do so.


jacjak — December 12, 2013 at 7:50 p.m.

It's great to hear conversations like this taking place. More needs to happen in government in this regard and much the reason for Warrens rise in popularity. Imagine: she's wants to bring accountability to wall street! Unheard of ! :-O

The progressive caucus needs to grow and be taken more seriously for sure. They provide a progressive core so this nexus with government can take hold in my opinion.

I hope Hillary is paying attention to these matters. I'm not quite ready to crown her just yet. (although close:)

nailingit — December 12, 2013 at 8:36 p.m. ( | suggest removal

While it seems that most freeholders are of a mind to increase the number of commissioner seats from three to five, it’s going to cause a real debate about just how to draw those commissioner districts.

As it is now, Vancouver can be counted on to vote Democrat in the primary, but not the other two districts. The general election is more wide open, and anything can happen when all three commissioners are voted on by the entire Clark County populace. So then there’s the question of whether the charter will change to citizens voting only for the commissioner candidates from their own district, or to continue a county wide vote on each commissioner seat as it is now. If the number of seats is increased from three to five, and if, also, each district can now only vote for a candidate from its own district; gerrymandering is bound to be contentious. It would serve Democrats well, if a certain section of Vancouver could be cut into their own Democrat reliable district, while finding the best way to combine other parts of Vancouver with less reliable Democrat precincts. There’s likely to be two of the more rural areas which will likely vote Republican: far North County and far East County. It’s how to combine those in between areas that will be debate worthy.

After the recent election, I noted that while the county elections website provides a precinct by precinct breakdown of the votes, there isn’t a map of this. Nothing I could find anyway. A color map which would show the vote outcome of each issue and candidate race, precinct by precinct would be sorta nice. It’s the thing about a picture is worth a thousand words. No doubt the two parties can spent a little time and do this for their own use, but that might leave rest of us a bit in the dark.

I’d think that the drawing of districts would be the most contentious issue of the charter, and one which may end up derailing the whole thing.

kn_dalai — December 12, 2013 at 9:38 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Now while I’m at it. I think Madore and Mielke should honor the vote of the people here in Washington over the I-502 marijuana issue. They seem to be having a problem doing so. It’s something to be considered when Madore is up for reelection. But they raise a legitimate issue over the conflict of federal and state law and correctly note the supremacy of federal law. A problem there as far as I’m concerned, but that’s another matter. Apparently around half the counties in this state have moratoriums in place over the MJ issue. The Columbian blog which hawkeye linked to is a hit job. Mielke stated during that hearing, that the commissioners received a letter from the US DOJ which indicated that the federal government would not challenge the Washington state MJ vote, but reserves the right to do so in the future. Mielke also raised the question of certain federal funding for things like schools being dependent on compliance with federal law. While the current administration will not challenge the MJ issue, there’s no guarantee that a future administration will honor that policy. My own opinion: to hell with it. Tell the feds to take a hike. States rights. Drug prohibitions are counterproductive anyway. But to gloss over Mielke and Madore’s concerns, is disingenuous by these Columbian bloggers and cannot be honestly compared to the advisory votes.

kn_dalai — December 12, 2013 at 9:41 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Andrea Damewood has a new job: Civil Rights Intake Investigative Officer for the Oregon Bureau of Labor and Industries.

I thought she was kicking some serious butt at the Willamette Week.;=00050§ion;=00010

manthou — December 12, 2013 at 10:09 p.m. ( | suggest removal

kn_dalai, I watched the clip hawk linked to on the 11th. That prompted me to download the public comment portion of the 12-10 meeting. After watching the segment I wrote and sent the following letter (yesterday).

Part 1

Good day, Commissioners.
Though I’ve included Commissioner Stuart in this communiqué it is directed at Commissioner Mielke and the Commissioner of my district, Mr. Madore.

I am writing in response to your statements regarding recreational cannabis businesses in Clark County; statements you made to people testifying on the subject at the meeting 12-10-13.

In the future, gentlemen, when a citizen broaches the subject –in the interest of transparency – I would ask you be honest in your statement. I would simply ask you reply you are staunch prohibitionists and will not entertain the thought of legitimate cannabis businesses operating in your back yard. That is the plain truth, isn’t it?

Mr. Mielke, and Mr. Madore, you both like to hide behind your sworn oath to uphold federal law. That’s normally your “easy out.” Have either of you ever questioned any ‘authority figure?’ In your lifetimes have you ever stopped and asked, “Wait a minute…”

Citizens in this Republic have the right to petition the government for redress of grievances. Organizations have been petitioning the government for well over twenty years to remove cannabis from Schedule I and address the oppressive cannabis law(s), to no avail. As I write this an individual will be arrested on a cannabis related charge every 32 seconds (average). Of those currently incarcerated for cannabis violations 80% are for simple possession.

Drift — December 13, 2013 at 5:31 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Letter Part 2

Civil disobedience has a long history in this country; from that Boston thing to the civil rights movement of the ‘50s to… Well, you get it. That’s the way it works in a Republic gentlemen. “…of the people, by the people, for the people…”

What’s going on in Colorado and here is an extreme case of civil disobedience. We aren’t talking a few students demonstrating on a campus. We are talking the citizens of two states. Citizens who’ve repeatedly asked for change and been ignored, citizens whose families have been torn apart by a draconian (and some say racist) set of laws.

And, so you say you’ve sworn fealty to a government body, so therefore the health and welfare of the citizens governed under that republic have no standing? This is my interpretation.

So, in the interest of integrity, please don’t hide behind an oath. Tell the testifier the truth, you are a prohibitionist and have no interest in discussing the matter.

Oh, and Commissioner Madore, that whole tangent about addiction merely cements my opinion of your myopic views. Yes, about one in ten regular cannabis users will become psychologically addicted (there is no physical addiction). This “addiction” is about on par with caffeine. The myth about cannabis leading to ‘harder drugs’ has been debunked in several reputable studies. I ask you again, sir, please educate yourself in the matter.

Drift — December 13, 2013 at 5:34 a.m. ( | suggest removal

And to change gears: two sides of the medicinal cannabis coin (metaphorically speaking ☺)

This is a 19 minute TED talk.

This is a GW Pharmaceuticals web page:

I anticipate the question, "Who was first?" And the answer is the Stanley's began offering the product before GW (obviously) but, the Stanley's weren't "first." Our government has known about the efficacy of CBD in neurological disorders for decades. The first I read about treating pediatric epilepsy with cannabis was in a story out of California, several years ago.

The Stanley's "notoriety" stems from Dr. Sanjay Gupta's documentary on medicinal cannabis that included a segment on Dravet syndrome (just to offer a little background).

Drift — December 13, 2013 at 6:24 a.m. ( | suggest removal

manthou — December 12, 2013 at 10:09 p.m. --- Perhaps you should take up investigative reporting yourself - I can't find anything saying Andrea's made that move except the directory link you provided. It must have been a recent move; her last article in WW was in late November, and I'm pretty sure it would be a conflict of interest for her to continue writing her investigative articles while performing a similar job with the state. Good luck to her. She's been one of a few we could depend on to cover a topic no matter where her info led.

One of her last articles, on why the CRC is dead. Interesting that some on our side of the river (Vancouver City Council folks) think the project is still alive. I'm having a hard time figuring what Gov Inslee could offer up to get the Senate to swing over and agree to fund the project. The only possibility that comes to mind is if his State AG decides to rule that the ban on tolling I205 unconstitutionally constrains WSDOT - and that would get a strong push back from the Senate.

roger — December 13, 2013 at 6:44 a.m. ( | suggest removal

kn_dalai — December 12, 2013 at 9:38 p.m.

If it does really come down to re-districting the County, I suggest they embrace their non-partisanship and do it by population ONLY. Seems the only fair way. Wouldn't you agree?

Also, the "blog" you referred to is just that, a blog. Not an in-depth investigation, or a reported story. I don't see how you could refer to it as a "hit piece". No more than your writings.

hawkeye — December 13, 2013 at 6:48 a.m. ( | suggest removal

roger @ 6:44 am: Andrea's job move was in plain sight thanks to social media. She posted a comment on the latest APIL blog with the "Works at Bureau of Labor" next to her name. Her FB home page shows that this job started the week of Dec 8, so, yep. It is new.

Performing civil rights violation investigations requires skills of an investigative reporter, but the job offers more security, better hours, and perks. :) She still might write for WW on the side, but would face some conflicts, as you point out. I guess we will find out.

Drift @ 5:31 am: Way to go, Cap'n! Give those Commissioners hell for being so myopic and hypocritical. They bray about "listening to the people" constantly when it comes to the CRC and light rail, but suddenly need hearing aids and ginko biloba to listen to and understand other issues critical to citizens.

hawkeye @ 6:48 am: People sometimes forget that blogs include opinion and satire. I see that on the FB comments so often. That does not make them less factual, just more entertaining that straight news. Temple Lentz has produced a couple of new gems, speaking of satire blogs. Check them out when you can.

BTW, I thought kn_dalai was not going to give this "biased rag" a dime of his cash? Hope he reconsidered and coughed up the dough for a digital subscription so he can keep us balanced and honest here. :) kn: Notice the smiley face emoticon, please. :D

manthou — December 13, 2013 at 8 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Benton, apparently, is being "investigated" by HR for telling his staff to go home early after a recent Department of Environmental Services pizza party.

What is wrong with that?

It is gifting of public funds in a unilateral way because the employees he "supervises" received their full pay. It is a violation of current policy. Only the Commissioners can grant employees time off with pay (beyond their sick leave and yearly personal day off). Madore and Mielke voted to cut this so-called "commissioners holiday" during Christmas week and want to eliminate it altogether, which really makes Benton's alleged blunder even more egregious.

The CC Commissioners discussed this in a tangential way at this week's Board time, with Stuart asking for the investigation due to a citizen complaint. Madore chimed in right away that he does not want the investigation to be called an investigation (huh?) and he does not want it to be punitive (double huh?). Mielke did not want to grant Stuart's request at all and did not think it was necessary.

We will likely never see the results of this pro-forma internal peek of that post pizza party paid holiday since it is a personnel issue.

manthou — December 13, 2013 at 8:12 a.m. ( | suggest removal

nailingit: I finally got some time to watch Rachel Maddow last night. Interesting stories about the R's self-immolation: turning their frustration and hatred toward each other.

I really yearn for the old days when our legislators realized that compromise benefits the whole: using our collective intelligence to solve problems and serve the public interest.

My little grandson picked up a Jurassic-era replica toy yesterday, while simultaneously looking at my husband and declaring, "Grampa!" We all laughed at the coincidental spot-on comparison: we are, indeed, dinosaurs, those of us who expect bi-partisan cooperation from our politicians.

manthou — December 13, 2013 at 8:23 a.m. ( | suggest removal

manthou- Thought you might like this article which speaks to media and it's shaping of the "centrist" movement. Comments are down a bit so thought to print it in it's entirety. It speaks much to what I've been saying about this latest media flurry of so-called centrism.

-From Chris Christie to Third Way, the political class mislabels the political center. Here's why it's so dangerous-

That word. They used it again this week. In coverage of the new, tentative budget deal, the term “centrist” was used to describe political opinions that are far from the center of public opinion. Even as Rep. Paul Ryan and Sen. Patty Murray were finalizing the deal, Roll Call was reporting that “Three Blue Dog Democrats and three Republicans from the centrist Tuesday Group have co-signed a letter … with a simple message: They’re ready to work together” to pass whatever Ryan and Murray agree upon.

Politico ran an interview with former Republican Rep. Steven LaTourette, who is described as “a chain-smoking Ohio centrist” who wants to promote more deals like this one. In Slate, Dave Weigel covered the political implications of the agreement and described Gov. Chris Christie as “a popular, centrist-looking figure.”

The Minneapolis Star-Tribune reported on “a rift between centrists and leftists in the Democratic Party” and lamented that this prevented stronger steps to reduce the deficit. The Star Tribune even included a quote from the co-chair of Third Way, which it described as “a centrist think tank.”

Third Way was in the news last week too, in a story that had media outlets tossing out the “C” word like candy.

“Elizabeth Warren Fires Back at Centrist Dems on Social Security,” read the headline in liberal Mother Jones. “Coalition of Liberals Strikes Back at Criticism From Centrist Democrats,” said the headline in the New York Times. “Elizabeth Warren and Centrist Democrats Are Already at War,” read New York magazine’s header.

The Huffington Post wrote of “A Monday op-ed by the centrist think tank Third Way.” National Public Radio’s website wrote of “The latest flare-up came between centrist Democrats at the Third Way think tank and liberals.”  The Democratic Party-friendly Talking Points Memo website wrote of “centrist group Third Way.” The Washington Post wrote that “Centrist Democratic think tank Third Way came under fire from some liberals.”
If we are to live in a world where words have meaning, they really should stop doing that.

nailingit — December 13, 2013 at 10:02 a.m. ( | suggest removal

The generally accepted definition of “centrism,” found in the Free Dictionary and elsewhere, is “The political philosophy of avoiding the extremes of right and left by taking a moderate position.” Similarly, a “centrist” is defined as “one who takes a position in the political center.”

The polling data is clear: If anybody should be called a “centrist” in last week’s conflict, it’s Elizabeth Warren and those who agree with her.

The issue that triggered last week’s controversy was Social Security, and Sen. Warren’s support for a bill designed to increase its benefits. That move convinced Third Way’s leadership that things were getting “out of hand.”  We won’t relitigate the merits of each side’s argument here, since we and many others have already done so. Instead, we’ll concentrate on the specific issue before us: the use of the word “centrist” to describe Third Way’s position.

“Left” and “right” are relative terms in any society. Deng Xiaoping was considered a “centrist” when compared to the Gang of Four during China’s Cultural Revolution. Dwight D. Eisenhower was considered a right-leaning centrist when he boasted in 1956 about increased Social Security enrollment and union membership in his first term. President Richard Nixon was seen as taking a “centrist” approach when he proposed a guaranteed minimum income for all Americans.

The word “centrist,” therefore, applies to a person or organization whose views roughly correspond to the midpoint between the left and right poles of political opinion in a society at any given time.  What do the polls tell us about political opinion today?

A 2012 Angus Reid Public Opinion poll showed that the number of Americans who believed this country should “renegotiate” or “leave” the North American Free Trade Agreement outnumbered those who felt otherwise by nearly 4-to-1. That was the opinion of most Republicans, Democrats and independents.  In a related finding, 60 percent of those polled by the Gallup organization earlier this year said that they would be willing to pay more for products purchased in the United States.

By contrast, Third Way is pushing the Trans-Pacific Partnership, a free trade deal that is even more aggressive than NAFTA.

nailingit — December 13, 2013 at 10:02 a.m. ( | suggest removal

How about taxation? A recent poll by Americans for Tax Fairness showed that 79 percent of respondents favored closing tax loopholes for corporations, 71 percent favored a 30 percent minimum tax rate for millionaires, and 69 percent supported ending the carried-interest loophole, which has kept tax rates low for hedge funders.

In last week’s Op-Ed, Third Way’s founders blithely dismissed all of the above as “fantasy.”

The Third Way outburst against Sen. Warren was triggered by her statement of support for Sen. Tom Harkin’s bill to increase Social Security benefits. There, too, Third Way’s opinions diverge sharply from those of the mainstream. A poll by the National Academy for Social Insurance found that “Fully 74% of Republicans and 88% of Democrats agree that ‘it is critical to preserve Social Security even if it means increasing Social Security taxes paid by working Americans.’”

A recent poll by United Technologies and National Journal reaffirmed the public’s support for Social Security.  As with earlier polls, 76 percent of respondents opposed benefit cuts like the “chained CPI,” which Third Way has been pushing for some time.

The policy approach favored by “seven in 10 participants across generations and income levels” in the NASI poll included: lifting the payroll tax cap so that wealthy people and employers would pay more; increasing payroll taxes for all Americans; and increasing Social Security benefits. Considering the tax aspects of that plan, it is more liberal than the Harkin bill endorsed by Sen. Warren.

Taken altogether, the economic policies supported by most Americans are the same ones Third Way dismissed in its Op-Ed as the work of “left-wing populists.” And yet Third Way is given the same kind of “centrist” label previously accorded to Alan Simpson and Erskine Bowles, the two co-chairs of a presidential commission that failed to make recommendations for reducing the deficit.

nailingit — December 13, 2013 at 10:03 a.m. ( | suggest removal

The “deficit plan” these gentlemen introduced in 2010 was soundly rejected by the public [RE1] . An NBC News/Wall Street Journal poll showed that nearly 70 percent of respondents were either “somewhat uncomfortable” or “very uncomfortable” with their proposals. Nevertheless, a Google search on “Simpson and Bowles” and “centrist” yields 2.8 million hits.

We’re not suggesting that Third Way or Simpson and Bowles aren’t entitled to hold opinions that are outside the mainstream. Many visionaries of our past began by espousing views that were considered marginal or extreme (although none of them, to our knowledge, had the Wall Street backing the above-mentioned individuals have enjoyed). But reporters shouldn’t present these views, or those who hold them, as something they’re not.

Words don’t just reflect reality; they shape it. That’s why these highly funded groups and individuals use words like “centrist” and “moderate” to describe themselves. It’s an attempt to preempt individual thought and convince people that theirs is a reasonable – in fact, is the only reasonable – point of view. This tactic is especially useful when, as is the case with Third Way or Simpson and Bowles, they are actually packaging and selling very unpopular ideas.

Presumably the word is also used because it describes a “center” point between the opinions of leading Democrats in Washington and those of leading Republicans. But even when that’s true, it’s a misleading label. Both parties are heavily influenced by campaign contributions from corporations and wealthy individuals, especially at the national level. Their shared views are particularly susceptible to this influence, especially on economic issues, and often contrasts sharply with public opinion.

Call them influential. Call them well-connected. Call them well-funded. But when it comes to Third Way and those who hold similar opinions, don’t call them centrists.

nailingit — December 13, 2013 at 10:04 a.m. ( | suggest removal

nailingit: Thanks for the links and thoughtful opinion. I have some quiet time this afternoon to read and digest and will do so. :)

manthou — December 13, 2013 at 11:13 a.m. ( | suggest removal

manthou — December 13, 2013 at 11:13 a.m.

All in the spirit of paying it forward Mayor. I'm still chewing on this article.

Fascinating debate. It brings some text to the "politicians are all crooks" somewhat, yet not. :)

///Congress Can Be Corrupt Without Corrupt People///

By Lawrence LessigDecember 13th 20135:45 AM

-The Supreme Court is considering whether ‘corruption’ can refer to a system as well as individuals. The definition makes all the difference when it comes reforming Washington.-

This debate about the meaning of the term “corruption”—whether it can apply to a “system” as well as individuals—is fundamental, and continues to this day. The Supreme Court has before it a critically important “campaign finance case” (McCutcheon v. F.E.C.) that turns upon the meaning of the term “corruption.” If “corruption” is only individual—to echo Senator McConnell, “if there is corruption, someone must be corrupt”—then aggregate limits on campaign contribution are likely to fall. But if “corruption” can refer to “a system,” in McCain’s words, or to an institution—what we at the EJ Safra Center for Ethics call “institutional corruption”—then even if none of the “gangsters” are corrupt, the institution still could well be. The complaint then is not about bad people doing bad things. The complaint is against a bad system, which drives good people to behave in ways that defeat the objectives of the system as a whole.

This battle between individual corruption and institutional corruption is not limited to the apologists for the current system. Indeed, it flourishes even among the current system’s strongest critics.

Represent.US is an activist organization fighting corruption in Washington. It has created (with the help of Trevor Potter, a Republican, and former Chairman of the FEC, Jack Abramoff,  a Republican and former lobbyist, and me, a former Republican, with the word “former” strongly emphasized) the American Anti-Corruption Act, perhaps the most ambitious reform proposal to address the “corruption” in Washington in a hundred years.


Americans are not stupid. If we do the hard work to explain the sense in which Congress really is corrupt, it’s not as if Americans will then say, “oh that’s ok. I have no problem with that.” Instead, as McCain saw in 2000, and as Obama saw in 2008, focusing America not upon criminals but upon the good souls who have allowed “the system” to be corrupted is a perfectly effective way to rally support for change.

Then all we would need is a “reformer” willing to carry through. 

Read more @

nailingit — December 13, 2013 at 11:19 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Nail don't you think the whole system has been allowed to become corrupt? Any time money is envolved it is going to sway or corrupt you choose which definition. Doing what is right or good for the mass's is no longer part of the program. It has come to how much butter are you going to put on my slice of bread. Both parties are guilty. Take the money out and we might get back to the original intent of government.

timerick — December 13, 2013 at 11:37 a.m. ( | suggest removal

“…of the corporation, by the corporation, for the corporation…”
(Sorry, Abe)

Drift — December 13, 2013 at 12:30 p.m. ( | suggest removal

(looks like another school shooting today in CO)

"Nail don't you think the whole system has been allowed to become corrupt?"

timerick — December 13, 2013 at 11:37 a.m.

In a sense yes. What is more than troubling is that our beloved conservative leaning SCOTUS, the ones that brought us Citizens United (corporations are people) is deciding the issue @ 11:19 and many more. I think we can garner a true sense of where the electorate stands with most issues if we take a look at the why & who SCOTUS decides matters. It's reflective of ideology, much in the same way of who we elect into office.

To blame both sides for overall corruption is more than correct. It's within piecemealing different decisions and legislation the engaged voter can decide what side they come down on at the polls. Example: 5-4 CU vote. Conservative rule.

I totally agree with minimizing the role of money in politics. Seemingly our only hope at undoing CU is by amendment. And that just puts us back to previous mode where it was still a big problem.

"An amendment originating in Congress must be approved by a two-thirds majority in the House and Senate in order to be submitted for consideration by the states. Ratification by three-fourths of the states is required to amend the Constitution."

There are no hopes in doing this with divided government, and should Dems control things once again it's suspect they would even do it. We the people need to make this a priority next election and demand better from our politicians imo.

nailingit — December 13, 2013 at 12:36 p.m. ( | suggest removal

manthou — December 13, 2013 at 8 a.m.

That’s right nice of you manthou:) Actually, I haven’t paid a dime nor have I received the 10 down notice from the Columbian. There’s two possibilities that I can think of, maybe three, one of which would be quite stunning. So more likely is that somehow I’ve slipped through the cracks and will be caught up with soon enough and shown the door. Oops, I shouldn’t have said anything;) I’m wondering, from any of you who would care to answer; does the Columbian website automatically recognize your computer, or do you need to sign in each time to gain access?

kn_dalai — December 13, 2013 at 1:36 p.m. ( | suggest removal

So far kn-dalai I have not had to sign in each time.

timerick — December 13, 2013 at 2:02 p.m. ( | suggest removal

I'm thinking I know why kd asked the question he did. I won't say what I think, 'cuz I aint no snitch. ☺

Interesting. I wonder how long it'll take someone to realize the glitch.

Drift — December 13, 2013 at 2:23 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Timerick and drift. I’m wondering; if you don’t have to sign in each time, then did you have to sign in the first time after you paid the new subscription fee? Or did you subscribe online? Obvioulsy, the site has to have a way to recognize a paid subscriber. For me, nothing at all has changed. I’ve also logged off and logged back on a couple of times in the past couple of days. Just like before. No differences for me.

kn_dalai — December 13, 2013 at 2:43 p.m. ( | suggest removal

kn-dalai yes I did have to sign on yesterday and I logged off last night. I did not have to log back on today. How it works I don't know. If it is working for you keep doing it.

timerick — December 13, 2013 at 3:30 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Well, if you wanna go there -

I never log off. I'll close the page and go elsewhere, but I don't log off. I haven't kept track, but it seems about once a week the system kicks me off and I've gotta log back in.

I didn't log in after paying my dues; I was in.

I was thinking the glitch has to do with cookies. If I don't log off how does the system know when I'm here and not; how does it count? When I hit the Forum bookmark the main page (with past history) comes up. From there I click the current date and I'm in.

Without cookies enabled, there's no way the system could count my "hits." I don't think anyway. Truthfully, I don't know computers from shinola. It just seems possible to me.

I -think- the glitch is the system doesn't require you to enable cookies, thereby leaving the back door open. kd, cookies enabled or disabled?

I tried gaming the system by minimizing the page, but never closing it. When I wanted to see the new comments I refreshed the page (alt/F5). That didn't work.

Drift — December 13, 2013 at 3:50 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Cookies are enabled Drift. I don't know what to make of it, but if I leave all of a sudden, you'll know they gave me the boot.

kn_dalai — December 13, 2013 at 4:17 p.m. ( | suggest removal


I never log off. I'm not sure if they keep track of us on this page. If you go to one of the story pages, they will track that but so far I haven't been to any other pages so I don't think it counts. I guess we'll find out, huh?

BTW, just a little --- Hmmmmm, I didn't know that factoid.

I saw a Subaru the other day and the guy driving it said it was rear wheel drive only. It was called a BRZ. Kind of a sports car built by Subaru AND Toyota together. The owner said it had a Toyota engine in it. Never seen one before.

hawkeye — December 13, 2013 at 4:53 p.m. ( | suggest removal

How about just paying for services rendered as being the right thing to do? Obviously I'm not some great moralist, but I believe in an honest shake. If I'm overpaid for services, say at a grocery store, I tell them about it. Can't see any difference here.

It's a matter of right and wrong in my book. Trying to get something for nothing catches up with most people anyway.


hawkeye — December 13, 2013 at 4:53 p.m.

BRZ's are hot. I saw one the other day also. Sounded great too.

nailingit — December 13, 2013 at 5:06 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Nail, I'm not trying to "get away" with anything. They haven't told me that I have to pay anything yet.

I've also noticed that on MSN, they aren't referencing the Columbian any more. It used to be the top 3 or 4 stories for Vancouver but now it's the Oregonian and the TV stations. Even though the stories are similar, I guess they refuse to pay for the links.

hawkeye — December 13, 2013 at 5:46 p.m. ( | suggest removal

I agree with you about paying for services rendered. You'd be surprised nailingit, but considering your past statement(s) about your honesty, even returning an overage in change returned, I almost expected you to chime in here. I also return overages in change, and have done so many times. Even after getting home and realising I got too much back, and then returning it the next time I was at that business. Then again, James Kirk was no boyscout. You may want to take a quick review of my 1:36 post and think of what those possiblities may be. The post I had prepared, before I read you input at 5:06 p.m. follows.

I’m not sure how these web pages work, but from what I’ve gleaned, it seems they keep a number tally of all the hits, and in the case of the Columbian, I think that means how many hits on each page. Such and such number of hits on the home page. So many hits on each article. So many hits on each LttE. So many hits on the basement forum. Etc. I’d think that also includes refreshes. I’ve no idea how other activity may be tracked, but we’re all aware of Big Brother concerns of the internet and phones. So far as I know, a computer can be ID’ed by the cookies or the IP number. If my situation is the result of a glitch in a system which is looking at the cookies, then I’d think that deleting the cookie cache ought to make me unrecognizable and require a new sign in, which only subscribers would be able to do. I last cleaned my cookie cache a couple of weeks ago, and will wait a while to do that again. Right now I’m just curious about what’s going on. I really need to get a new computer, and if I do that, that should be the end of that.

kn_dalai — December 13, 2013 at 5:57 p.m. ( | suggest removal

kn_dalai — December 13, 2013 at 5:57 p.m.

I'm not judging mind you, but thought to put my two cents in. Although warily. You sound too kind as of late and figure a shoe is going to drop pretty soon. But thought to take a chance, understanding mine have become unlaced on more than a few occasions.

Honestly I don't recall any past statements I've made about a penchant for honesty, but then again my trapdoor isn't always nailed shut. I haven't always been law abiding I suppose, but not one to infringe on & always try and respect the rights of others. That victimless crimes thing. Everyone has their own set of principles and ethics they live by.

Not sure with your captain Kirk reference, (a hero to both of us?) but certainly no boy scout here either.

Live long and prosper.

nailingit — December 13, 2013 at 6:48 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Your Salon writer appears to have made the mistake of considering a Centrist the same as a moderate. But I'll give him the thumbs up anyhow, because he rightly notes that special interests own the political class.

roger — December 13, 2013 at 7:37 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Nice little pissing contest going on in the Machinist union. Boeing came back and offered to drop the extension on when someone reaches max pay, and upped the payout to $15K per. They refused to drop dumping the pension plan in favor of an employer supported 401(k), and I haven't run across if anything happened with the proposed medical coverage changes. It seems many in the rank and file want to vote on it, but the local's leaders refuse to schedule one - they say there isn't enough difference from the last one to warrant this. The national president wants the vote held.

It's hard to fault the local leadership with wanting to hold out for that defined pension plan. A 401(k) is too influenced by the variations of the stock market to be a dependable retirement plan - they were developed to augment pensions, not replace them.

On the other hand, you can't refuse to allow the membership to vote. That's what unions do.

roger — December 13, 2013 at 7:58 p.m. ( | suggest removal

. A 401(k) is too influenced by the variations of the stock market to be a dependable retirement plan.....roger — December 13, 2013 at 7:58 p.m.

My pension is thru the union AND was invested heavily in the stock market. We lost a ton in the crash. My company wasn't happy when that happened because they are being forced by the government to make up the difference. Of course we had to take cuts as well.

I haven't kept up with the Boeing deal because neither side is telling anybody the truth, they never do.

hawkeye — December 13, 2013 at 10:41 p.m. ( | suggest removal

hawkeye — December 13, 2013 at 10:41 p.m.,

Pension plans require fiscal prudence and sound management on the part of the organization (corporation or union) controlling them. Unfortunately, rather than passing laws to require this, and to regulate Wall Street so unscrupulous brokers aren't making pension fund investment decisions based on their commission rather than on what will make the fund money, our government has allowed them to push the onus back on the worker. Yes, the money being saved is being invested either way (pension or 401(k)), but the latter leaves the worker hanging out there on their own when the investment goes south. And there is a thought process that says the pension is the worker's reward for making that business money over the years.

I can accept a thought process that says the Boeing workers are demanding too much - An average annual pay of around $80K seems quite high for what amounts to being a skilled assembly line worker. But also we said that about the UAW workers in Detroit back in the '70s, and allowed that industry to relocate operations to break that union up. Well, when our cars were being built in Detroit we got a reliable product. The larger Fords were going to need a new tranny after about 80K miles because the C4 was too small, and GM products seemed to require a new alternator or starter every time you turned around, but with proper maintenance you could count on them. It's almost impossible to buy a US car today without having a few safety recalls due to using cheap plastic components or poor workmanship. I suppose this is acceptable with a car, but with an airplane?

roger — December 14, 2013 at 8:42 a.m. ( | suggest removal


anybody know a good target range w/o having to go to pornland?

i need to get my weapon handling back in shape. being 1.old, 2. arthritic (thumbs now) 3. haven't shot in too long, i need refreshing besides, it's FUN :)

CAN keep it locked & loaded but i really would prefer an alternative.

DeeLittle — December 14, 2013 at 9:01 a.m. ( | suggest removal


what's your take on the provocation the chinese are enganging in by trying to stop one of our guided missle warships in international waters?

what about their incursion into japanese air space, the attacks on shale-rich provicences in outlying china areas and the handling of n korea....?

DeeLittle — December 14, 2013 at 9:09 a.m. ( | suggest removal

roger: I like your Detroit/Boeing comparison, and fear that airline safety will suffer, too. I hate flying and will dread it more.
Panhandling or lack thereof:

Getting ready to come home from a short trip to CA, Guerneville, to be specific. I have never seen so many homeless folk in one small community in my life, yet I was not panhandled once! The homeless wander happily among the San Francisco elite, who have come into town for a weekend getaway. Many smiles and expressions of good will between the two disparate groups. It prides itself as being a hate-free town. What a refreshing change. Not one request for a hand out. Not one. Guerneville must take care of its homeless citizens very well. I need to do some research as to how.

This is a funky little resort on the Russian River in Sonoma County. Very LGBT friendly, too. Very everyone friendly. Good food and galleries, too. An old time Rexall drug store and actual five and dime store from the 50's. My daughter-in-law works at a free clinic here and she and our son just purchased a cute house in Rio Nido. I look forward to future visits: a vacation for sure.

How in the world do they care for the homeless, though, in such a way that the entire community embraces their presence? Stunning contrast to what I see at home.

manthou — December 14, 2013 at 9:20 a.m. ( | suggest removal

I too give back any money that the clerks give me if it's over the amount due. There's a very good reason to do this. Their tills are counted at the beginning and the ends of their shifts. If they don't tally out then the clerk is responsible for any shortages usually. Some places tell their employees that you will or can be fired. Most clerks are really appreciative and thank you. They mean it.

I once had a clerk give me back $40 dollars too much. I didn't realize it till I got out to the car. I went back in and found the clerk and her supervisor having an argument about the problem. I stepped up and tried to interject so that the clerk could make the till right. The supervisor must have been having a very bad day. She started in on me like it was my fault also. Fortunately the owner walked up about this time and inquired about the problem. The supervisor told the owner that I was a scam artist and that I tried to cheat the store. Then I took charge and took the owner outside and told him the story of the supervisors abuse of the clerk. The clerk had made an honest mistake and when I found out I immediately returned to give the money back. He returned to the store and I followed him in. He walked up to the supervisor and gave her her walking papers right there on the spot. ( I suspect he had been having troubles with her for awhile) He turned to the shocked clerk and promoted her on the spot.

I had a chance to return to this business and found the clerk, now supervisor, had made some changes and she thanked me for pointing her owner in the right direction. What this story is about being honest. I and my cousin go back regularly to re-up on artist supplies and have always been treated with respect and I believe it's because the owner kept his head and was willing to do the right thing when it comes to good employees. Anyone, and I mean anyone, can make a mistake. But it takes someone with a good moral compass to fix it.

I used to work in retail and I know the pitfalls that face employees.

JohnCasey — December 14, 2013 at 9:28 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Dee, I haven't been here in, like, forever and it appears there's been a few changes, but -
Usually we just go up to a spot on Larch.

I once walked out of CCU with $100.00 of their money. I had tossed the 20 dollar bills and my deposit slip on the seat of the truck. As the bills slid, something didn't look right. I went back in, but didn't see the teller who had processed the transaction. I waited in line and then spoke to another, returning the 100 bones.

Shortly after I got home the phone rang, it was CCU. The branch manager thanked me and added, in her twenty years of banking she had -never- had anyone do that; return extra money from a mistake.

I wanted to 'game' the Columbo system just to see if I could. As I stated, if it had worked I'd'a ponied-up anyway.

Drift — December 14, 2013 at 10:14 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Nobody EVER gives me extra money, and I mean NOBODY. LOL It seems I'm the one that gets shorted most of the time. It's only happened a few times but it's never a big deal. I've found money on the floor a few times, $20 at a casino once, never gave it back, who would I give it to?

Sorry Dee, I go to the range at Delta Park. I don't know the ones in this area, I'd like to go to some gravel pit and "play" but don't know which are safe.

hawkeye — December 14, 2013 at 10:40 a.m. ( | suggest removal

"The guided missile cruiser USS Cowpens, which recently took part in disaster relief operations in the Philippines, was confronted by Chinese warships in the South China Sea near Beijing’s new aircraft carrier Liaoning, according to officials familiar with the incident... The Cowpens was conducting surveillance of the Liaoning at the time. The carrier had recently sailed from the port of Qingdao on the northern Chinese coast into the South China Sea." --- I'm not entirely sure who was provoking who in this situation. The South China Sea is their neighborhood; let one of their ships come off the coast of North America and start tailing one of our carriers - I suspect we'll get a little cranky about that too.

That incursion into "Japanese air space" was around some islands that both countries claim. Our country isn't taking sides in that dispute.

Their reaction to anything in North Korea is irrelevant -- Until such a time as that government starts back with getting aggressive with their neighbors. At that time, I suspect they'll do what they've done in the past - Let whatever Kim that's in power engage in a little saber rattling to build "face" inside the country, and then tell him (quietly) to knock it off.

I've no idea what attacks on shale oil rich provinces you're referring to. They're busy converting coal burning plants to LNG plants, and are building extraction operations in Inner Mongolia and a couple of other southwest provinces - perhaps the uproar over the water issue tied to that is what you're referring to? China is heavy into their own version of an Industrial Revolution - one that we went through 100 years ago (give or take). They've tried solar and wind power, and it doesn't work - their needs are too great, and the electricity generated by those sources is too unreliable and too expensive. We've got a strange relationship with them - our governments still are pissing over who the big dog is, but our businesses are more than happy to work with them. China still trails us technologically, and is quite happy to have our companies help with their development. With that conversion from coal to LNG, GreatPoint Energy (a US corporation) is helping build an extraction plant that uses half the water of what they can build; something extremely useful in the desert like areas of Mongolia and southwest China.

roger — December 14, 2013 at 10:40 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Then again, James Kirk was no boyscout. -- kn_dalai — December 13, 2013 at 5:57 p.m.

That’s what made James Kirk – well – James Kirk:)

kn_dalai — December 14, 2013 at 10:49 a.m. ( | suggest removal

During the Cold War the Rooskies would dog us from time to time. We weren't too worried about whatever armament a fishing trawler could carry.

It did shake us up a tad when the Bear flew over though. To mitigate that threat a Tomcat parked under the bombay doors and another flew over the top of it.

Drift — December 14, 2013 at 10:57 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Drift we live in about the same neighborhood as you. What do you and your neighbors think of the proposed oil storage facility that the port is working on. We already have trains carrying oil.coal and ethenhol going up the tracks every day now. Are you at all worried about the safety of a storage facility?

timerick — December 14, 2013 at 11:08 a.m. ( | suggest removal

timerick, we live over the hill from both the tracks and the port. I'm a stone's throw off of the 3200 block of Fourth Plain - in the midst of the "gut" (as we squids used to say). We are in no "immediate" danger from an oops. With that written:

I've no idea why folks are upset with the port commission. Bringing industry to the port is what they do. Oil and stuff is what ports do. What's the problem?

Regarding stuff like spills, explosions, etc. I think folks are being a tad hysterical. How many of these same people are aware the Camas paper plant's emergency program reaches clear out to Beaverton? There are two tanks of CLO2 sitting in the bleach plant. If one or both of those vessels had a catastrophic failure the plume of poisonous gas could go miles downwind.

What about the Linde plant up on St.Johns and 78th?

How many other manufacturers in the are deal with chemicals that would create havoc should they be released?

So they want to put some oil tanks on the river. Okay. Okay with ther caveat they really, really have a good emergency response plan.

So, to answer your question, no I'm not worried. A reservation or two, maybe, but not worried.

Drift — December 14, 2013 at 2:35 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Hey everyone who is still tuning in to the forum...nice variety of discussion points, here. It's worth waiting a few days to see who's sayin' what.

Drift, in regards to your comment at 2:35 pm...I'm more concerned with what goes on behind closed doors in places like SEH than I would a lot of other businesses in Clark County.

goldenoldie — December 14, 2013 at 3:11 p.m. ( | suggest removal

*** Bark of the Day! I have never paid to state my opinion, I will never pay to state my opinion so here it goes.... ***

Madonis is real loser. How could he be so damn dumb! He posted on facebook about the detailed results of "his" fee waivers.... I mean is this guy an idiot? Most retail jobs, that is minimum wage jobs. Is that the type of people you want to continue flooding this area? Apartment renters, walmart customers? Dude get a clue... F A M I L Y W A G E J O B S!!

Coffee shops, subways, grocery stores, car repair? employ the bottom of the barrel. They have no discretionary income to make an economy expand!!!!!!!!

Now, you sure AVOIDED a year by year comparison to see the real story didn't you? Why?

Also, where is the guarantee that the square footage will be occupied and employment is certain? Have those potential business already applied for business licenses? Can you correlate one with the other?

Tell us "poorly rigorous" person "acting" as a leader....Tell the job the way is supposed to be done in order to prove to us that businesses would have not being created unless the fees were waived.


To the ones that paid the Columbian "extorsion" for you to post or read.....What were you thinking? If we would have put a united front, we could probably have this site free for us forever. You ruined it by caving in to "your dependency"....You got scared! I came back because Madonis pisses me off with his stupid mind and corrupted ways, otherwise I was doing just fine! Still I will never pay a dime to state my opinion....DO YOU HEAR ME?????
Why? Because I am a freaking rebel ya numb nuts!


nicepuppy — December 14, 2013 at 3:22 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Drift — December 14, 2013 at 2:35 p.m.

I'm thinking you got it right. So the port transports oil, grain is just as explosive. That plant you talked about on St. Johns, propane, acetylene, oxygen, who knows what other kind of gas, big boom. Big hole in the ground and three gas stations close by.... Bye-bye. I'd be more concerned about that.

Since they haven't built the transfer station yet, now is the time to make sure it's state of the art and not some piece together POS. That's what I'd be looking at.

puppy, funny stuff.... rebel without a clue.

hawkeye — December 14, 2013 at 4:27 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Eric LaBrant wrote an LTE a few days ago and raised a valid concern - How will the Tesoro operation affect those living in the Fruit Valley area? He notes previous Port operations have been decent neighbors, and is hoping Tesoro would do the same. This goes back to the question of who will provide the oversight to ensure they abide by strict control standards.

I'm thinking the only reason this has gone past being an environmentalist concern is due to the proximity to the Gramor project. If that project is built, I see the port losing tenants over time due to increased noise control and other laws.

roger — December 14, 2013 at 6:19 p.m. ( | suggest removal

roger — December 14, 2013 at 6:19 p.m.

Nothing to worry about, Roger. The County has an expert in charge of the Environmental Dept. Don't ya know?

hawkeye — December 14, 2013 at 6:23 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Drift we live on 28th and Esther. I'm not to concerened either. I think the whole thing will be good for vancouver. If the ones that are invested in the river front development are putting up the fight, they probably should have thought about those rail tracks first.

timerick — December 14, 2013 at 6:27 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Hawkeye - Good point. We can all sleep a lot easier with Don on the job. Maybe he'll hire the puppy to keep watch?

roger — December 14, 2013 at 6:59 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Maybe he'll hire the puppy to keep watch?

roger — December 14, 2013 at 6:59 p.m.

Now I'd pay to see that!!!!

hawkeye — December 14, 2013 at 7:04 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Well, I’ll hand it to Loulou for some funny stuff in his weekly Press Talk today. The free at last line takes the blue ribbon, but the CO2 and Wienerschnitzel footlonger line deserves admirable mention as a good ole home cooked pie in your face funny. Also notable is that guffaw over Mielke’s lack of a brain. Very clever!

I’ve noticed that once again; that “$100,000, cushy” job description is used about Benton. Now, I’m pretty sure that position wasn’t referred that way when it was held by Benton’s predecessor, so, just a wild guess; it must be because they think Benton doesn’t do anything. Maybe they ought to actually find out if that’s true before going around insinuating things like that. I don’t care if it’s just their opinions, they’ve got reporters and the editor going around doing these hit jobs which raises questions of fairness in reporting. Going by memory, I believe I once heard Jim Lehrer say that he didn’t even vote in elections because he wanted to be as impartial as possible. Look at what Vancouver’s got.

The Press Talk heading ought to be changed to Loulou’s Man with the Golden Gun Weekly Hit Piece, or Loulou’s Boom Bang-a-Bang Comedy Central:)

kn_dalai — December 14, 2013 at 7:12 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Lars Larson- On the shooter in Colorado.
A murderous, angry, socialist who ridiculed conservatives. Wonder if the MSM will spend much time on that part of the story?

What a tool.

hawkeye — December 14, 2013 at 10:12 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Seems I missed good comments the last couple days....

JohnCasey and others, your extra monies experiences are one of those areas where 'what to do' can test, and sometimes even have options. I was never in retail but consumers would have to live in a slightly different dimension to at least not have some awareness of consequence when given extra money by accident, and therefore also be able to conlude that sh*t rolls downhill. So I guess moral choice is where the consequence begins. Who pays for our moral choices is fairly iffy, and so not knowing or even pretending no one would pay is unlikely. One the other hand, remember when ATM machines were first coming into use? The money dispensed was so crisp it'd stick together so bad you'd have to pull them apart and crinkle them. Once I paid with a $20 bill that actually was 2 twenties stuck together. Never got it back. I assume the merchant was as unaware as I was until later when counting out the till. So, from that aspect, my money given vs someone else receiving extra monies back is one of those cosmic levelers. Or, perhaps that's too philosophical and so bleeds back into being plain ole justification. Who knows?

jacjak — December 15, 2013 at 9:02 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Thomas Conrad, who had an economics class with the gunman, described him as a very opinionated Socialist.
"He was exuberant I guess," Conrad told The Denver Post.

"A lot of people picked on him, but it didn't seem to bother him."
Carl Schmidt and Brendon Mendelson, both seniors at Arapahoe High, said he had political views that were "outside the mainstream".
Schmidt said the shooter "was an outspoken kid about what he believed and a good political thinker."
Mendelson added: "He did have a lot of friends. He was popular with the people he knew."


now, HAWKEYE, please inform us as to what difference this makes? he was out for revenge on a teacher who dropped him from a program. and YOUR point is....?

DeeLittle — December 15, 2013 at 9:03 a.m. ( | suggest removal

manthou, enjoy the whole Russian River area. It's beautiful, and there's something about coastal wines from that area, very nice. I had to look up Guerneville to see exactly where it was in relationship to the few times we've gone over from Sacramento to visit wineries.

Hoping there is a way you can find out more about how their community interacts so positively with homeless peoples, I'd sure be interested. We hear more and more about 'solutions' and 'measures', and now the CCSD is proposing a Agressive Panhandling Ordience even tho the Sheriff's office themselves says agressive panhandling is on the wane in Clark Co. Perhaps nicepuppy is on to something with all the bark about evicting specific 'elements' from certain locations. Being aware is like being courteous, it's free and can only benefit.

jacjak — December 15, 2013 at 9:32 a.m. ( | suggest removal

DeeLittle — December 15, 2013 at 9:03 a.m

No point Dee, Lars is ALWAYS a tool. He's just another promoter for his right wing, tea party, stick up the rear, backwards beliefs. Mind you, that has nothing to do with what happened in Colorado, but like always, Lars tries to tie his lame beliefs to what's happening elsewhere in the world. I doubt very much if the shooter was thinking about politics when he went after that teacher, nope, he was pissed because he got dropped, plain and simple.

But hey, lets make it all about politics so we can ridicule those that don't believe the way "WE" do.

hawkeye — December 15, 2013 at 9:58 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Good point Hawkeye. Lars is good for entertainment only. He has gone past the far right.

timerick — December 15, 2013 at 10:32 a.m. ( | suggest removal

About coal trains...

I seem to be ambivolent about the whole process. While I am totally for alternate forms of energy, trying to stop coal extraction or transport strictly for that reason seems fairly myopic and nonproductive.

On the other hand, as someone who medicates daily just to breathe, air quality is a serious conversation. And as a recipient of the Hanford radioactive cloud releases of the last half of the 1940's and into the 50's, to look at such disasters as Fukushima or Chernobyl or Bhopal as something that can't happen here is contary to survival, and requires a level of intentional mulish self-will. Some things, like if the planet earth is warming or cooling, is not a matter of in 'I believe'. It's instead, a series of processes reasoned through to it's most positive conclusions and then appropriate actions taken.

Goldenoldie mentioned SEH... Germanium is catagorized as a rare earth metal, and cleaning of the wafers are with weak acids. Not a chemist, but weak acids have only so many protons compared to the other four catagories they use for measuring acids. I'd be more concerned about the smelting process of Germanium. Don't know much about the other chemicals used, or storage, or regulations implimented for growing wafers, but all compounds used in any industy come with a wide avenue of responsibility. Self regulation is a pipe dream, in my opinion, no matter what the commodity, so behind closed doors or as wide open as Hanford, I say regulate the hell out of em all, and then make money and jobs. The conflict arises due to the implementation and oversight of regulations distracting from profit. I'm sure somewhere there is someone who has broken down 'regulation' and it's types and reasons. But, in general they benefit public wellbeing and protect our systems, be it money or resources or quality of life.

jacjak — December 15, 2013 at 11:18 a.m. ( | suggest removal

langenthal: Ron Goodman was wondering where Trista Kobluskie is working now.

She was Don Benton's Admin Assistant at the DES until she found other work this Fall. Another one bites the dust.

She is working for Otak:

manthou — December 15, 2013 at 5:47 p.m. ( | suggest removal

About paying, tracking, signing in...

Ever since I've been posting in the Forum I've been asked for screenname and password about every two weeks. As long as I was lurking I was not asked. No idea how the 'clock' keeps track, but if I want to add a post and haven't for a couple weeks, I'm asked again. It seems to me to be measured in real time, not in use or something else.

Today, I made 3 posts fairly close together. Between the second and third post I got the same sign-in flag I've always gotten, asking for sn & pw. Not sure if this matters in figuring out how things work or why, tho.

jacjak — December 15, 2013 at 6:09 p.m. ( | suggest removal

jacjak — December 15, 2013 at 6:09 p.m

I would suspect that it's your computer that's causing that. If it's at regular intervals, it could be your browser clearing your cache. I stay signed in and it never asks unless I clear my cookies. I've posted several times this week and haven't looked at any other pages in the "C" and they haven't asked me to pay yet. I'm not sure they are counting this page.

hawkeye — December 15, 2013 at 7:34 p.m. ( | suggest removal

It's 6:30 am East coast time, where I am. 16 degrees and falling in sunny Cleveland. When you all get up in about three hours, consider taking time to complete a Columbian survey on the top ten stories for 2013.

Stevie Mathieu has posted a link to it on her Twitter:

I already completed it, so I cannot link to the Survey Monkey site.

As long as you limit your story peeks, I imagine you can comment on here ad nauseam. The Columbian stories are the subjects of many of my posts, though, so I like to read it cover-to-cover each day. This paywall is like a user tax, I guess. I don't mind shelling out the money to support this local newspaper. But that's me.

manthou — December 16, 2013 at 3:35 a.m. ( | suggest removal

But hey, lets make it all about politics so we can ridicule those that don't believe the way "WE" do.

hawkeye — December 15, 2013 at 9:58 a.m


you already did

DeeLittle — December 16, 2013 at 9:15 a.m. ( | suggest removal

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