Open forum, July 15-21

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278 comments

Comments

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nailingit — July 15, 2013 at 4:24 p.m. ( | suggest removal


???

langenthal — July 15, 2013 at 4:29 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Ok then...

luvithere — July 15, 2013 at 4:47 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Hmmmm....

Keepin' it weird?

roger — July 15, 2013 at 6:14 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Well here it goes again. You can all now, once again, put constitutionally acknowledged rights of freedom from double jeopardy, right up there with other challenges of constitutionally acknowleged rights like speech, association and arms ownership.

kn_dalai — July 15, 2013 at 6:20 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Poor alleycat.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-87eXm...

roger — July 15, 2013 at 6:24 p.m. ( | suggest removal


kn_dalai: I agree with you 100% about the DOJ and how it pushes the limits on constitutional protections. It makes me angry beyond words.

The DOJ is immeasurably powerful. It scares me.

manthou — July 15, 2013 at 6:47 p.m. ( | suggest removal


There's plenty of legal precedence that says pursuing a civil court judgment or a civil rights conviction after acquittal in a criminal trial is not double jeopardy.

A civil court trial can look at the same evidence, but use it to say the defendant caused the family undue harm and suffering. The penalty would be a fine. This is what happened to OJ, and would probably be the easiest choice here. Whether the family could collect anything is doubtful, though.

A Civil Rights violation trial would have to (in this case) prove race was a factor. Trying to prove a hate crime seems doubtful - at the end of the day, there's no way to prove Zimmerman stalked and deliberately shot Martin because he was Black. Proving Deprivation of Rights Under Color of Law might be possible, if they can prove the alleged pattern of Zimmerman targeting you Black males to follow and call 911 to complain about. But even this seems a stretch; normally that charge is used against a civil official of some sort, which Zimmerman wasn't.

roger — July 15, 2013 at 6:59 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Having said that, I really doubt this is about Trayvon Martin. The real target here is Stand Your Ground. People shoot each other by the thousands every year in this country. The anti-gun lobby had recently been sent packing after trying to place restrictions on firearms after the Gabby Giffords shooting, and this was the next big event to keep the pressure on (as Sandy Hook was 10 months after this shooting). Stand Your Ground is an ongoing fight with that lobby - they like to call it the "shoot first" law. Florida's law is considered confusing, and Gov Scott was supposed to "look into it."

roger — July 15, 2013 at 7:16 p.m. ( | suggest removal


And one more consideration. Anyone who's ever lived in the South knows there's a general disdain for Northerners coming down and trying to change things. The Obama Administration is walking a very tricky path here - proceeding quietly might be better than allowing Eric Holder to attack the decision that jury made. And after Sheriff Joey in AZ has spent the past couple of years rubbing Holder's nose in the doggie doo, they can't afford to have this backfire on them.

roger — July 15, 2013 at 7:24 p.m. ( | suggest removal


I agree with you Roger, as far as it goes. As far as it goes means that; a civil lawsuit is not the same as a criminal prosecution by government. Pursuing a civil lawsuit would not constitute double jeopardy but is a challenge based on tort law with financial remedies and is a private sector option. Retrying the same legal case, at a different government level is just a restatement of the old charge, and IS double jeopardy, as a conviction would lead to prison or death, and is in violation against double jeopardy guarantees. IMHO.

BTW, a small thing I know, but included in my previous post shoud have been challenges to – privacy rights. Of course, privacy rights is a pretty big deal in the news these days.

kn_dalai — July 15, 2013 at 7:36 p.m. ( | suggest removal


I agree with Roger and KN on this one. It occurs to me that if Zimmerman had been black, none of this would be discussed here or anywhere else. He was lucky and unlucky to get the verdict he got. I really didn't follow the trial OR much of the info about it since none of us will ever really know what happened that night, it doesn't make much sense to bother or get worked up over something I can do nothing about.

hawkeye — July 15, 2013 at 7:59 p.m. ( | suggest removal


hawkeye — July 15, 2013 at 7:59 p.m.

What? Do you not understand what’s being said here?

kn_dalai — July 15, 2013 at 8:21 p.m. ( | suggest removal


kn_dalai — July 15, 2013 at 8:21 p.m

Yea, I got it, double jeopardy and all that stuff. Seems to me there are two ways to go to try to mess this guy up as much as possible. Either charge him with a civil rights violation (which to me is just chicken s**t and reeks of prosecutorial misconduct) or a civil trial which is a last ditch effort by the family to punish the guy, not that he hasn't been punished enough. But like I said before, there ain't nothin' I can do about it. Maybe you can.

hawkeye — July 15, 2013 at 8:51 p.m. ( | suggest removal


It's gone through the criminal justice system. It's done. A Civil lawsuit awaits.

By and large though, what comes around, goes around...

nailingit — July 15, 2013 at 9:34 p.m. ( | suggest removal


The point of civil rights laws is that it is not double jeopardy because the government is not retrying him for the murder they are trying him for violating the victims civil rights. The problem is that in my opinion, Zimmerman wanted to kill a "punk" and he didn't care what color they were. Civil right laws seem very appropriate in one sense, they were created by the GOP to keep democrats(Zimmerman is a registered democrat) from killing unarmed black children.

Note to Nail and Hawk, yes I realize and appreciate that the democrats have given up their former racism, the democrats have made great strides in getting getting rid of the racists.

frobert — July 15, 2013 at 10:05 p.m. ( | suggest removal


On another note a major reason for the civil rights act is that white racist juries were acquitting those who murdered blacks.

frobert — July 15, 2013 at 10:08 p.m. ( | suggest removal


frobert — July 15, 2013 at 10:05 p.m.

Apparently we haven't gotten rid of ALL of them. Your "opinion" as wrong as it is, sucks.

hawkeye — July 15, 2013 at 10:09 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Riddle me this, fro.

If he had been convicted of murder 2 or manslaughter, would they be charging him with civil rights violations or a civil trial?

I didn't think so.

hawkeye — July 15, 2013 at 10:12 p.m. ( | suggest removal


"Note to Nail and Hawk, yes I realize and appreciate that the democrats have given up their former racism,..."

frobert — July 15, 2013 at 10:05 p.m.

I like this, new, emotional frobert. One that, at least for a moment, removes the muddied spectacles of contrived ideology, and allows the harsh realities of our world to be internalized.

Bravo!

If this civil & understanding tone is drug induced, I want some.

If it's from the heart, that's good.

If it's drug induced and from the heart all the better. (my opinion-pls share@nailingit)

frobert I have appreciated your posts both here and on the dark side about this. Not saying you're entirely correct (although mostly, that in and of itself causes me to doubt my own opinion:), but you brought some passion, where passion is needed.

I live in a day and time when I can walk in my neighborhood, unarmed, minding my own business, be confronted and provoked by someone bigoted with ill intent, (and it was recorded nonetheless!), shot dead, and the law will do nothing about it.

I predict we'll see an increase in conceal & carry permits.

Understandably so.

nailingit — July 15, 2013 at 10:28 p.m. ( | suggest removal


nailingit — July 15, 2013 at 10:28 p.m.

I have two teenaged sons left at home, both of them are taller and considerably heavier than Trayvon was. The older of the two is 16 and cocky as 16 year old boys tend to be. The younger is autistic, brilliant but backing down when he is in the right is not in his skill set. At 13 years old he is 6' tall and just over 200 lbs, he refuses to get his hair cut or shave and loves to wear my motorcycle jacket. I live in fear of the day some gutless wonder decides that they pose a threat. It has already happened once in Vancouver and it will happen again.

frobert — July 15, 2013 at 10:38 p.m. ( | suggest removal


There oughta be a law against being this stupid. Instead we put em' on a jury, so in the aftermath they can make a small fortune.

I've felt for a long time we should have a professional jury system. Juries that provide accountability, understanding, a sense of law, and be able to complete a basic litmus test to see if the elevator goes all the way to the top.

Also prosecutors should be subject to accountability. As it stands now...pretty much nothing.

///Juror B37 On Zimmerman Trial 'Sure' Voice On 911 Tape Was George, Not Trayvon Martin///

Cooper asked the juror if Zimmerman was the kind of person she'd like on a neighborhood watch in her community. She hesitantly responded, "If he didn't go too far. ... He just didn't stop at the limitations he should have stopped at." Cooper continued to push for a yes or no answer until the juror finally concluded that because "he's learned a good lesson," she "would feel comfortable having George" on her neighborhood watch.

Juror B37 recently signed a book deal with Martin Literary Management president Sharlene Martin.

Read more @ http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/07/15/juror-b37-zimmerman-trial-911-tape-george_n_3601501.html

nailingit — July 15, 2013 at 10:40 p.m. ( | suggest removal


nailingit — July 15, 2013 at 10:40 p.m.

So she knew he was guilty (of manslaughter at least) but feels he is a nice guy, so he is free to kill again?

frobert — July 15, 2013 at 10:43 p.m. ( | suggest removal


nailingit — July 15, 2013 at 10:40 p.m.

So she knew he was guilty (of manslaughter at least) but feels he is a nice guy, so he is free to kill again?

Normally I would blast you for using a biased news source, but the information is basically the same as I got from a source I consider less biased.

frobert — July 15, 2013 at 10:45 p.m. ( | suggest removal


frobert — July 15, 2013 at 10:38 p.m.

Honestly ask yourself, would you be even more concerned if your kids were black?

When Inadequacies in our system hit home, it can lend us a different perspective.

The right's passion to bring austerity to safety net programs speaks much to the base's demographics. White and Old.

Kinda like endorsing privatized Medicare-but not for anyone 55 or older.

We truly are our brothers keeper in a sense. I wish our lawmakers would consider/embrace ideas that don't affect them personally.

---

July 15, 2013 at 10:43 p.m.

She sounds like a complete idiot.

What about advocating for professional Juries? With certain guidelines, I think a much more effective way of meting justice.

A source is nothing but a conduit for information. I think most of us can filter out bias if we allow ourselves to.

Unfortunately, many, and I believe you fall into this category, won't review something that doesn't mirror their ideology.

One man's liberal trash, is another's day old hash. It's perspective. But facts/truth are the key.

Obvious hucksters & shysters aside such as Beck, Jones, Westboro Baptists and The Jesse Jackson Jr. Brigade (see how I bring balance?) many successful publications/media outlets can be viewed without your eyeballs exploding, your face melting, and your soul being sent to Kansas.

I even take a look at the Daily Paul now and then.

Is it true Rand has come out?

nailingit — July 15, 2013 at 11:33 p.m. ( | suggest removal


And what's Truth, but applying one's own perspective to the facts?

roger — July 16, 2013 at 6:21 a.m. ( | suggest removal


hawkeye — July 15, 2013 at 10:12 p.m.

fro, still no answer?

hawkeye — July 16, 2013 at 6:25 a.m. ( | suggest removal


hawkeye — July 16, 2013 at 6:25 a.m.

Sorry, I thought it was a rhetorical question since we all know the answer, no it wouldn't be happening, but people want him punished, if he had been it would be over.

frobert — July 16, 2013 at 7:35 a.m. ( | suggest removal


I have resisted posting an opinion on the Zimmerman verdict because I was not at the trial and did not see the evidence or fully understand the Florida laws, as explained to the jurors in court.

My gut tells me these things:

Trayvon Martin's death is a tragic and unnecessary loss of a young life. He could have been my son. He could have been Frobert's. He was like so many of our sons (my Eagle Scout was stopped by one of Vancouver's finest as he walked to a doctor's appointment in a downtown neighborhood in 2003: he was actually wearing a hoody. My son knew the law well-enough to ask the cop: "Are you detaining me for cause?" The cop backed off and let him go, but followed him to the doctor. Would a George Zimmerman cowboy be as restrained?)

No matter who started the fight under what circumstances, Zimmerman had the fire power advantage over a teen with his fists.

I believe people who carry weapons have a special responsibility to be cautious. Zimmerman was advised not to follow Trayvon but did, anyway. He comes off, to me, as a wanna be cop. He is a hot head. Bad combo.

Half the population in the US have IQs under 100. Half. Statistical fact. I suppose that applies to most juries, too. Lawyers, on the other hand, tend to lean toward the high end of the IQ scale.

All of us, no matter what our IQ's are, cannot control our emotions and actions when we are in "fight or flight" mode. That is why cops are taught to avoid high-speed chases. It takes an amazing act of skill to self-calm and be reasoned when fear and anger prevail.

The prosecution in the Zimmerman case was not as smart or as skilled as the defense.

manthou — July 16, 2013 at 7:40 a.m. ( | suggest removal


A tenacious Twitter user has helped kill Juror B37's book deal.

Read her tweets and the blog commentary here:

[link text][1]

[1]: http://www.uproxx.com/webculture/2013/07/persistent-tweeter-ends-juror-b37s-book-deal/

manthou — July 16, 2013 at 7:59 a.m. ( | suggest removal


Justice has done it's job. Persecution failed it's job to prove "beyond a shadow of doubt".
Witnesses for the persecution failed. One blatantly lied on the stand, smirked and smiled about calling white's "crackers" and it not being racists.
Martin's own father admitted on the stand the voice heard calling for help "was NOT his son's voice".
Other witnesses testified that Martin was the aggressor.
Both were in the wrong. Both could have backed off.

Is the situation sad? Yes, it is. One has lost their life, the other for the rest of his life has to live with what has happened and be constantly looking over his shoulder.

soul_pancake — July 16, 2013 at 8:02 a.m. ( | suggest removal


I think you mean "prosecution", soul_pancake. But the Freudian slip made me smile and might be apt and intentional. :)

I just read a great opinion piece by a KOMO radio journalist John Carlson in Crosscut this morning. He blames the media for fanning the flames of misinformation in the Zimmerman trial.

This is worth a read:

[link text][1]

[1]: http://crosscut.com/2013/07/15/media/115568/john-carlson-trayvon-martin/

manthou — July 16, 2013 at 8:22 a.m. ( | suggest removal


manthou — July 16, 2013 at 7:40 a.m.

"The prosecution in the Zimmerman case was not as smart or as skilled as the defense."

I think you are making the false assumption that the prosecution did not get the verdict they wanted.

In the Casey Anthony case the prosecution was incompetent. They based their whole case around the chloroform searches, and Anthony's mother had made the searches and told investigators that she had made the searches from the start.

In the O.J. Simpson case, the procesutors were competent, but they were hampered by a corrupt police department, and once the jury was convinced that one piece of evidence was falsified they had reason to question all of it.

In the Zimmerman case they played Zimmerman's entire interview, which was inadmissible by the defense, unless they allowed him to be cross examined. The prosecution also failed to mention some of the most compelling evidence that Trayvon did not start the physical altercation. It was in the reports, but they left it to the jury to figure it out themselves. Would it have made a difference? We will never know but is speaks volumes about the outcome they were seeking.

frobert — July 16, 2013 at 8:26 a.m. ( | suggest removal


soul_pancake — July 16, 2013 at 8:02 a.m.

If the standard in the United States was "beyond a shadow of doubt" as you falsely claim nobody would ever be convicted of anything.

The prosecution witness on the stand NEVER lied, she lied int a previous telephone interview. Tracy Martin did not testify that the screams were not Trayvon's. NO witness testified that Trayvon(it is considered proper to use a minor's first name in print and an adults last)was the aggressor, there were NO witnesses to the start of the altercation except Zimmerman who did not take the witness stand.

Zimmerman has a long history of violent felonious behavior, Protection orders and is currently denying allegations of incestuous rape. To top it all off people are claiming that Trayvon's hoodie was inappropriate attire, but it was Zimmerman who was wearing the red jacket, shaved head and gang tattoo.

frobert — July 16, 2013 at 8:36 a.m. ( | suggest removal


The prosecution in the Zimmerman case was not as smart or as skilled as the defense. manthou — July 16, 2013 at 7:40 a.m.

And what's Truth, but applying one's own perspective to the facts? roger — July 16, 2013 at 6:21 a.m

And so, the whole premise of 'justice for all' and 'created equal' is in actuality, merely a whimsical supposition after all, to be put along side Dick Cheney's quaint little Magna Carta, as it all is dependent on the time of day, what one may be wearing, and the IQ of your peers. But, not the tone of your skin... okay, got it. But, don't like it much...

Why am I always so surprised by my own naivete'?

jacjak — July 16, 2013 at 8:38 a.m. ( | suggest removal


nailingit — July 15, 2013 at 11:33 p.m.

"Honestly ask yourself, would you be even more concerned if your kids were black?"

As a parent of 6 white kids, I don't know if I can answer that question rationally but I will give it my best shot.
If I lived in the "old south" my answer would definitely be yes, but I have never lived there. I believe people like Zimmerman and our local wannabe want to get the "punks" and I don't believe they really care about their victim's race, but I also believe that they face a greater chance of conviction if their victim is white.
The racist propaganda and lies that came out about Trayvon was extremely offensive, he was a middle classed kid with middle class problems, His mother is a college educated county administrator, and his father is a Mason. I don't think it gets much more middle class than the Martin family.

frobert — July 16, 2013 at 8:57 a.m. ( | suggest removal


frobert: I have heard others speculate that the prosecution's heart was just not in this case. You might be correct, as they are. Many trial lawyers take acting lessons. There is a good reason they do.

manthou — July 16, 2013 at 9:10 a.m. ( | suggest removal


If I lived in the "old south" my answer would definitely be yes, but I have never lived there.

frobert — July 16, 2013 at 8:57 a.m.

And not 95% white Clarkistan?

Please...

One of societies problems is that we look away from ugly realities that surround us, and place them somewhere else.

Martin's death wasn't in the "old south".

Nor are countless other deaths that result from bigotry and racism.

Seriously...

nailingit — July 16, 2013 at 10:17 a.m. ( | suggest removal


And what's Truth, but applying one's own perspective to the facts?

roger — July 16, 2013 at 6:21 a.m.

A conservative truism for sure. :)

nailingit — July 16, 2013 at 10:22 a.m. ( | suggest removal


@frobert — July 16, 2013 at 8:36 a.m

Perhaps you should leave your home, book a one-way flight to Chicago or L.A... join the rest of the dimwits that allowed Sharpton and the media to whip them into a frenzy with lies.

Young black, white, hispanic, asian etc are killed everyday. Do we hear about them? No. We simply hear about this one case, one case the media chose to run with, to play the race card to the hilt. Why?
I could give you any number of reasons why.

Justice did her job, he was found not guilty, one's dead, one's life is ruined move on.

soul_pancake — July 16, 2013 at 10:28 a.m. ( | suggest removal


This Maddow slice might help explain a few things in understanding the right's (overall) apathy with the Martin case. I think many, without a TV or radio, would have a different opinion.

But only a few. The intrinsic toll life has taken on many accounts for much.

You are whatcha eat.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/07/16/rachel-maddow-fox-news-trayvon-martin-protests-coverage_n_3603912.html

nailingit — July 16, 2013 at 10:55 a.m. ( | suggest removal


soul_pancake — July 16, 2013 at 10:28 a.m.

What does correcting your blantant lies have to do with Chicago and Sharpton? I watched the trial, you on the other hand seem to get your "facts" from some racist publication. Now you regurgitate their worn out straw man argument? I have news for you Trayvon was not killed in Chicago.

I am sick of racist false Conservatives polluting the ranks of real Conservatives, what is the matter is the klan full? In real Conservatism the rights belong to the individual not the group, there is no room here for racism here.

frobert — July 16, 2013 at 11:23 a.m. ( | suggest removal


nailingit — July 16, 2013 at 10:22 a.m.

Roger is correct, you are confusing "truth" with "fact". Religion is truth, physics is fact

frobert — July 16, 2013 at 11:44 a.m. ( | suggest removal


The defense case for Mr. Zimmerman was one of self defense and not “Stand your ground” as many have been misled to believe. Whether you think he was justified to protect himself in what he thought was a life threatening situation, well if you watched the trial as myself and my wife did I think the defense clearly demonstrated through expert witness testimony and police interviews he thought so… It is a tragic situation when a life is taken in any matter. I do believe that the president should not have made the remark about if he had a son and the rest because he hasn’t demonstrated that consistency with so many other murders of young black men around the country 70 alone in his home town of Chicago.. .. It was such a disservice and patronizing message in my mind.

vanwadreamer — July 16, 2013 at 12:03 p.m. ( | suggest removal


frobert — July 16, 2013 at 11:44 a.m.

I was being tongue in cheek.

But never one for being needlessly corrected. The word can embody both, and more.

truth noun \ˈtrüth\

plural truths

Definition of TRUTH

1

a archaic : fidelity, constancy

b : sincerity in action, character, and utterance

2

a (1) : the state of being the case : fact (2) : the body of real things, events, and facts : actuality (3) often capitalized : a transcendent fundamental or spiritual reality

b : a judgment, proposition, or idea that is true or accepted as true

c : the body of true statements and propositions

3

a : the property (as of a statement) of being in accord with fact or reality

b chiefly British : true 2

c : fidelity to an original or to a standard

..

One can get needlessly hung up with semantics. But you should ask yourself why.

Turn frobert-let yourself turn into a Democrat. It might hurt at first, but in the long run you'll be the better for it. Cast aside your old self, the bigots and racists who run your party, and rise with the new. Let us pray.

Oh dearest God who is enthroned upon high. Please take this simple request from your most humble servant, and...[I feel the spirit of the Lord coming on.....]]]]]]]

RELEASE THE DEMONS THAT BIND THE FRO-STER! COME OUT OF HIM I SAY! LET THE UNGODLY SHORT THINKING COMMIE AYN RAND SPIRIT LEAVE HIS BODY! FILL THIS VESSEL WITH TRUTH, JUSTICE, AND THE AMERICAN WAY! (except for the bad parts)

IN YOUR BLESSED NAME I PRAY

AMEN

(I don't know about you fro, but I feel better)

nailingit — July 16, 2013 at 12:21 p.m. ( | suggest removal


vanwadreamer — July 16, 2013 at 12:03 p.m.

"The defense case for Mr. Zimmerman was one of self defense and not “Stand your ground” as many have been misled to believe" You are mistaken "no duty to retreat" was mentioned more than once and it was in the jury instructions. "no duty to retreat" is the actual terms from the law commonly referred to as "stand your ground" The defense did waiver their right to a pre trial immunity hearing but not their right to "stand your ground" jury instructions.

"he thought so" Under Florida law what he thought was irrelevant, what a reasonable person would think is the only thing that matters. He was fighting with a child that weighed 46 pounds less than him, and he "felt" his life was in danger? No reasonable person would think that.

"I do believe that the president should not have made the remark" What difference does it make? If you follow my posts than you know I am no fan of Obama, but his comments came after Governor Scott appointed the special council, Obama did not cause the uproar.

The reason people are outraged about Trayvon is he was a middle class child from a good family. Your false equivalency that he is black and gang members are black so they are the same is offensive.

frobert — July 16, 2013 at 12:21 p.m. ( | suggest removal


nailingit — July 16, 2013 at 12:21 p.m.

Bigots and racists that run my party? The only political parties I know of that are run by bigots and racists are the neonazis and the kkk(yes the klan is now a political party).

frobert — July 16, 2013 at 12:36 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Fro- I never said Travon was Black nor inferred he was a gang member.. Maybe you need some new reading skills..Those were STUPID comments...

What does Travon coming from a "Good middle class family" have anything to do with the facts. Maybe you need to see what Travon looked like prior to the Shooting and see who might have looked "more Buff and Musclular".. That might help paint a diff pic in your mind.. Having 4 boys myself when my twins were 17 they could kick the $$$t out of many a tough or soft guy.. The facts in this case demonstrated Travon to take Zimmerman down and start to beat the crap out of him.. Turn this around and if Travon had killed Zimmerman they would have tried him in adult court.. He was 17... Zimmerna is a white Hispanic... No mention of his race earlier either... Black white blue doesn't matter, get the facts out and let our laws and justice system work as it was designed under our constitution..Keep politics out!!

vanwadreamer — July 16, 2013 at 12:57 p.m. ( | suggest removal


vanwadreamer — July 16, 2013 at 12:57 p.m.

I have seen and linked on here, his birthday pictures from two weeks before his murder, he did not appear "more Buff and Musclular" than the average scrawny 5'11" 158lb teenager. The facts of this case in no way demonstrated that the violence was initiated by Trayvon or that Zimmerman received more than ONE blow from Trayvon's non dominant hand. Trayvon had no hand damage other than one very small contusion on his left hand. Zimmerman had a bloody nose and a couple of very minor scratches on the back of his head(the kind my 4 boys stopped crying about by age 10). Trayvon was a child by the laws and customs of the United States, and because of those laws he was unable to arm himself against a violent predator like Zimmerman.

frobert — July 16, 2013 at 1:13 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Does it matter what shape Martin was in? Would it matter if this seventeen year old was the embodiment of Shaq?

To get to the heart of the matter, Zimmerman, as we all know, was not alone that night. He had his best friend, Kel-Tec with him.

Up till now in this guys hand, it was nothing more than a penis extender.

A civil suit could very well demand George Zimmerman's penis take the stand. But not for more than four hours. After that a physician would need consulting.

Ill intent could be demonstratively shown if Zimmy's extended family,
Richard and the Twins, took the oath and their testimony came up short.

Remember, a civil suit dictates a much different standard than criminal court. It's all about the preponderance of evidence.

nailingit — July 16, 2013 at 2:56 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Had Trayvon acted a respectful when he was initially approached, we wouldn't be having this conversation. Kids these days seem to have a big "I'm tougher than you" chip on their shoulder when they are approached and that puts the other person on the offense. Attitude is everything.

hawkeye — July 16, 2013 at 3:11 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Well I sure don’t know what happened, but consider this: Trayvon feared for his own life and attacked Zimmerman, who in turn feared for his (Zimmerman’s) own life.

From what I can see, the media’s coverage on the whole thing has been disgusting, and I’m also pretty sure that white ass cracka comment didn’t help the prosecution’s case.

kn_dalai — July 16, 2013 at 3:43 p.m. ( | suggest removal


hawkeye — July 16, 2013 at 3:11 p.m.

You should realize that by Zimmerman's own admission he was initially running after Trayvon and he never identified himself. As a member of the neighborhood watch he should have identified himself, and if he had the whole situation very well may have turned out differently. Zimmerman was convinced in his own deluded mind that he was apprehending a criminal.

frobert — July 16, 2013 at 3:48 p.m. ( | suggest removal


The reason people are outraged about Trayvon is he was a middle class child from a good family.
frobert — July 16, 2013 at 12:21 p.m.

I can't speak for anybody else, but the reason I was 'outraged' (more like dismay for me) about the death of Trayvon Martin is because initially there was minimal investigation w/ no arrest, just a dead kid and the guy with the gun, who had been told to stay in his vehicle, walking around free.

Well, Geraldo Rivera, and his hoodie comment helped too...

jacjak — July 16, 2013 at 4:18 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Keep feeding into the media frenzy, people. It solves the problem, right???

yeah, right.

Do you really think your opinion counts any more? No matter what is said or what is done, it won't bring Trayvon back. The court has decided Zimmerman's fate. He was tried and found to be not guilty. Mr. Zimmerman has more on his plate than any of us can ever imagine. The persecution from within will play havoc on Mr. Zimmerman. Time and time again, he will replay that night in his mind. The persecution from within on each parent of Trayvon, knowing they couldn't be there to prevent this confrontation... knowing they couldn't protect him from death by shooting...wondering what they could have done differently with him...

It is a parent's worst nightmare to lose a child. My mother once said to me after my brother had died from natural causes..."You die from within when you lose a child, even an adult child. Your heart is forever broken and no matter what anybody says or does, it never changes a thing. All you can do is learn to cope and you learn to live on."

Maybe we all could take a lesson from this message from my dear departed mother. It's time to live on. If you don't like the law the way it is written, then rather than sitting on a forum, bitching back and forth about it, be proactive (not by the BS of protests and riots).

Change happens and it begins with ONE.

goldenoldie — July 16, 2013 at 4:33 p.m. ( | suggest removal


jacjak — July 16, 2013 at 4:18 p.m.

Your outrage is appropriate, a death occurred and it is not up to the police to decide it is not worth investigating, the job of the police is to thoroughly investigate and turn that information over to the prosecution for determination. In murder cases arrests often do not happen right away, but the lack of a proper investigation is unconscionable.

The prosecution dropped the ball on so many points that it could not reasonably be concluded that they even tried. The lack of damage to Trayvon's dominant hand was in the autopsy report but it was never mentioned to the jury. The only witness that said Trayvon was on top of Zimmerman drew his conclusion because the person with dark clothing was on top and the lighter clothing was on the bottom. Any kid that has ever collected firefly's at night knows that red appears to be the darker color in dim lighting, the technical term is Purkinje effect, and they never brought it up.

frobert — July 16, 2013 at 4:46 p.m. ( | suggest removal


frobert — July 16, 2013 at 3:48 p.m.

You know, every time you write something, it sounds like you are rewriting history. I don't believe ANY of it. No matter what you say or what I say, it doesn't mean squat. You can be as outraged as you want. You don't count any more than I do.

hawkeye — July 16, 2013 at 4:53 p.m. ( | suggest removal


goldenoldie — July 16, 2013 at 4:33 p.m

Your post assumes that Zimmerman has a conscience, I don't know if I agree with you on that. He believes that he was perfectly justified, he refers to Trayvon as a "suspect" just what was he suspected of?

frobert — July 16, 2013 at 4:53 p.m. ( | suggest removal


hawkeye — July 16, 2013 at 4:53 p.m.

Yet, you still post your opinion. That is the purpose of an open forum isn't it? Or is your's the only opinion you feel counts?

frobert — July 16, 2013 at 4:55 p.m. ( | suggest removal


"The lack of damage to Trayvon's dominant hand was in the autopsy report but it was never mentioned to the jury."

Seriously?????

Autopsy reports DO NOT list what ISN'T there. Only what is there. They how could a coroner possibly report what isn't there. Stupid statement.

hawkeye — July 16, 2013 at 5:02 p.m. ( | suggest removal


hawkeye — July 16, 2013 at 5:02 p.m.

You should look up the autopsy .pdf it does describe all injuries, and all parts of the body in great detail, that is what they do when they do a autopsy.

frobert — July 16, 2013 at 5:58 p.m. ( | suggest removal


The Administration is after Stand Your Ground, not the truth with this killing.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/naacp-urges-eric-holder-do-the-right-thing/2013/07/16/530425da-ee49-11e2-9008-61e94a7ea20d_story.html

As the article notes, this is a state law that the federal government has little power to change. And legal experts in other articles doubt the ability of the Justice Dept to make a civil rights charge stick.

roger — July 16, 2013 at 6:37 p.m. ( | suggest removal


roger — July 16, 2013 at 6:37 p.m.

When was the last time Congress took States Rights into consideration when passing a bill? How often does the Supreme Court overturn laws that violate States Rights? The acquittal of Zimmerman will be a disaster for self defense rights.

frobert — July 16, 2013 at 6:48 p.m. ( | suggest removal


frobert - I'm staying far away from saying anything about Zimmerman's guilt or innocence. I have no idea, and the facts brought out in the trial were quite inconclusive.

I do fault the decision to take this to trial with such a poor case. The refusal of the DA to take this case to court, and the subsequent appointment of a Special Prosecutor, had to set off alarm bells. And that Special Prosecutor made no effort to check her case with a grand jury prior to bringing the charges. (And I may be wrong here, but isn't she the same one who prosecuted the lady given 20 years for shooting in the wall by her allegedly abusive husband?)

I do believe the best way to attain a conviction would have been to pursue manslaughter, and try to build a case that Zimmerman confronting Martin after being told to back off made him responsible for the shooting. (If this point could have been proven.)

And I'll also say the gun control activists at one network (MSNBC) are going out of their way to fan the anger against the jury's decision.

roger — July 16, 2013 at 7:07 p.m. ( | suggest removal


holyC - What politician are you referring to - GOV Inslee? There's a poll in one of today's papers saying the majority of us aren't exactly impressed with his performance.

Of course, that same article notes GOV Gregoire fared even poorer at the same stage of her initial term, and old girl managed to hang around several years after that.

Oh No!!! Is it possible we'll all be Madore lovers in a couple of years?

roger — July 16, 2013 at 7:13 p.m. ( | suggest removal


You should look up the autopsy .pdf it does describe all injuries, and all parts of the body in great detail, that is what they do when they do a autopsy.

frobert — July 16, 2013 at 5:58 p.m.

Exactly! But what they DON'T do is tell you what ISN'T there. I just bet you that nowhere in that description it said, "subject doesn't have one green eye and one blue eye".

They do not say what isn't there unless it's something that's missing like if he was missing a finger.

hawkeye — July 16, 2013 at 7:19 p.m. ( | suggest removal


(And I may be wrong here, but isn't she the same one who prosecuted the lady given 20 years for shooting in the wall by her allegedly abusive husband?)

roger — July 16, 2013 at 7:07 p.m.

She was also the Asst. D.A. prosecuting the infamous Leslie Whorewinkle case.

Just as incompetent then..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NXRqH0...

nailingit — July 16, 2013 at 7:21 p.m. ( | suggest removal


holycrapola — July 16, 2013 at 6:58 p.m.

OK HC. Glad you brought this up, again. The idea of pols and keeping campaign promises, I mean. Let's have some fun with this.

Now, for your little idea to work, then everyone has to have a smart phone or computer. But not every one has a smart phone or computer. So obviously, for equalities sake, the taxpayers would have to provide those things for those who don’t have them. But that would be unfair to provide for some but not for others – so government would just have to buy computers and or smart phones for everyone. Then there would be the payment for the service providers. And don’t forget about frequent updates for newly invented technologies.

But here’s a bigger problem, and I mentioned this to you once before. Politicians are not dictators, or at least are not supposed to be, in this country. Laws and budgets are passed in legislatures which are not controlled by a single individual, but requires many. So your idea of a single someone implimenting their agenda is – nonsense.

And anyway, if everyone can vote on every action taken by their representatives, then forget about those go between politicians. Why, we can all now have a real, pure, democracy, with everyone voting on everything, all the time. OHH! That’s ripe with all kinds of possibilities!

Thanks HC. Great example of paper and pencil thinking. As I call it. Something I’d expect out of a teenager or a twenty something. I’d hope that by the time someone is a thirty something – they’d have a little more experience under their belt. Too often not the case though.

kn_dalai — July 16, 2013 at 7:54 p.m. ( | suggest removal


911 dispachers have no authority to give legally binding orders. The statement by the dispatcher is no grounds for prosecution of Zimmerman.

NBC network needs to be thumped on hard, for the lying editing they did of that 911 call. MSNBC anyone?

kn_dalai — July 16, 2013 at 8:52 p.m. ( | suggest removal


kn_dalai — July 16, 2013 at 8:52 p.m.

911 dispatchers do not have the authority to give orders, in fact in most cases police officers don't either, that does not necessarily mean ignoring them can't be used as grounds for prosecution. If you fail to follow a reasonable warning from anyone an the actions directly lead to a death, it can be evidence of manslaughter.

Yes, NBC was out of line for editing the 911 tape, the problem is the press has been historically given wide latitude, if they didn't ad to it or rearrange it, chances are the courts will side with the press, editing for brevity is allowed, but in a jury trial, if no judge throws it out, Zimmerman has a good chance. On appeal in front of judges however I think NBC would prevail.

frobert — July 16, 2013 at 9:05 p.m. ( | suggest removal


holycrapola — July 16, 2013 at 8:48 p.m.

"But here’s a bigger problem, and I mentioned this to you once before. Politicians are not dictators, or at least are not supposed to be, in this country. Laws and budgets are passed in legislatures which are not controlled by a single individual, but requires many. So your idea of a single someone implimenting their agenda is – nonsense". - kn_dalai — July 16, 2013 at 7:54 p.m.

So what about that HC?

(What's TAE anyway).

kn_dalai — July 16, 2013 at 9:14 p.m. ( | suggest removal


@frobert — July 16, 2013 at 4:46 p.m
The lack of damage to Trayvon's dominant hand was in the autopsy report but it was never mentioned to the jury.

Just because there was no injury to his dominant hand doesn't mean he didn't use 1. a palm strike 2. elbow strike or 3. a forearm strike.

Palm and elbow strikes would leave no bruising (damage) on his body.

soul_pancake — July 16, 2013 at 9:14 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Yes frobert. The press is given wide latitude, and should be, as are detractors of public figures largely exempted from defamation legal actions.

Just the same, NBC’s actions are hard to justify in terms other than blatant misrepresentaion.

kn_dalai — July 16, 2013 at 9:24 p.m. ( | suggest removal


soul_pancake — July 16, 2013 at 9:14 p.m

That's the best you got? A kid with no history of violence against an MMA trained adult 46lbs heavier?

George Zimmerman has a history of violent felonies, a protection order was granted against him because of domestic violence, he has allegations against him for incestuous rape, and he has a gang tattoo on his left arm. And you insist on spreading lies about Trayvon? Wow, you must really hate Trayvon for some reason,I wonder what that reason may be?

frobert — July 16, 2013 at 9:27 p.m. ( | suggest removal


kn_dalai — July 16, 2013 at 9:24 p.m.

I agree, the NBC was way out of line. I almost hope he wins a huge lawsuit against them and then loses it to the Martin family in their civil suit.

frobert — July 16, 2013 at 9:37 p.m. ( | suggest removal


frobert — July 16, 2013 at 9:27 p.m.

OOOOOOOO, allegations and a tattoo. Sounds like a hardened criminal to me. Never heard about his MMA training, got proof on that one? And the violent felonies, how about proof on those since he had a gun permit, can't see that he'd been convicted on any. Seems like you hate Zimmerman, what is it, you hate Hispanics? You seem to like to spread lies about him. Oh, and that protection order, how about a reference on that one. Come on fro, back up your allegations.

hawkeye — July 16, 2013 at 9:51 p.m. ( | suggest removal


hawkeye — July 16, 2013 at 9:51 p.m.

You didn't watch the trial and you want me to link to all the information you should have if you are commenting on this? read the transcripts the pdfs and get up to speed.

All of this information was released, if you want to discuss with the grown ups you have to take grown up responsibility.

" what is it, you hate Hispanics?" No, I hate child murderers.

frobert — July 16, 2013 at 10:26 p.m. ( | suggest removal


@frobert — July 16, 2013 at 9:27 p.m

Yes frobert do what you do best, putting words in others mouth.
I don't argue with fools, they tend to bring a person down to their level. Trying to get me angry?.. wrong again, I don't give others power to do that.

Never did I say I hated Trayvon Martin, those are your words and your words alone, so it is you that owns them. If you read the pdf files as you say then you know that Trayvon Martin also has a record.
You sir are trying to push "white guilt" and this homie don't play that game.

soul_pancake — July 16, 2013 at 11:04 p.m. ( | suggest removal


soul_pancake — July 16, 2013 at 11:04 p.m.

No Trayvon did not have a criminal record, he had a school record of minor disciplinary matters. Zimmerman's injuries were consistant with one blow by Trayvon's left hand, my kids got worse playing for gods sake. I'm not pushing "white guilt" as you claim, I am pushing outrage over the murder of a child, and even more outrage against the false conservatives who are cheering the murder of that child, what ever happened to conservative values? Trayvon was the victim here, absolutely no evidence indicates that he attacked in fact the only testimony indicates that Zimmerman initiated the physical contact, but you ignore that testimony because some website told you she lied on the stand, the only basis for that is the false assumption by uneducated people that dictating and writing a letter are different.

frobert — July 16, 2013 at 11:22 p.m. ( | suggest removal


@frobert — July 16, 2013 at 11:22 p.m

Wrong frobert, conservatives are not cheering the death of Trayvon Martin. Where did you get such a preposterous idea?

soul_pancake — July 17, 2013 at 12:15 a.m. ( | suggest removal


frobert — July 16, 2013 at 10:26 p.m.

Nope, didn't watch the trial. Why would I and what difference would it make if I did. I had no input in Florida. You are no different than those idiots in the streets protesting. The trial is over, the verdict is in, be done with it. I have been on the jury of three murder trials, I've done my civic duty.

hawkeye — July 17, 2013 at 6:34 a.m. ( | suggest removal


Good to see Dulin's is staying in the neighborhood. the former Pop Culture building is a lot smaller and there is no off-street parking, however.

A lot of the Dulin's crowd drives there.

Regardless, I will be a foot-traffic customer as always. Cannot wait to see the renovations! I love these long-established eateries survive!

manthou — July 17, 2013 at 9:06 a.m. ( | suggest removal


holycrapola — July 17, 2013 at 8:48 a.m.

"passing a message to black parents (here I go again because the media makes me label people) to assume the responsibility to raise their kids, educate them and make them inventors, doctors, lawyers, etc instead of being trapped in a never ending cycle of despair and hopelessness"
Trayvon had college educated mother, brother and he was being encouraged to take the same path. He came from a middle class family, not the stereotypical one you are talking about.

"Thomas Alva Edison, one of my role models"

Tesla was the true genius, Edison, like Bill Gates was great at stealing other peoples ideas and intellectual property. Edison never did get the light bulb to work, that was Tesla. Edison may have invented the phonograph, but his other achievement came on the backs of true geniuses like Eastman and Tesla. Tesla was also motivated by the betterment of mankind, not fame and fortune. He refused to make a patent challenge against Marconi even though it violated 17 Tesla patents because he felt that Marconi worked hard and deserved the credit, after Tesla's death however his family did not share his sentiments, they sued and were awarded the patent rights. My oldest son for a project at school, sent a freedom of information request to the Government for Tesla's notes that were seized upon his death, the vast majority of them were still blacked out because they were "state secrets".

frobert — July 17, 2013 at 9:24 a.m. ( | suggest removal


Sorry, I my post is unclear, I referred to Marconi and "it", but failed to mention that the "it" was the radio.

frobert — July 17, 2013 at 9:34 a.m. ( | suggest removal


Newspaper editor in Michigan is filing a defamation lawsuit against her reader/critics:

Time for Anti-Slapp legislation in Michigan:

[link text][1]

[1]: http://www.mlive.com/news/grand-rapids/index.ssf/2013/07/ionia_newspaper_editor_files_d_1.html

Didn't Lou B do a good job of silencing blogger/critic Bob Koski a few years ago? I don't know what legal threat he used, but I think it had something to do with Koski's cutting and pasting large portions of Columbian articles into his blog.

Koski was also highly critical of The C.

Anyone remember? How is Koski doing, by the way? Anyone know?

manthou — July 17, 2013 at 9:36 a.m. ( | suggest removal


frobert: I was going to give Tesla a shout-out and glad to see you beat me to it.

Ever hear of the Tesla Museum funding campaign by comic The Oatmeal? Great syndicated comic and worth a gander:

[link text][1]

[1]: http://theoatmeal.com/comics/tesla

manthou — July 17, 2013 at 9:40 a.m. ( | suggest removal


Fro-what trial did you watch.. Maybe get the cliff notes and check it out again.
The prosecution brought forth no evidence that could have been remotely construed as anything more than frivolous and “unsubstantiated” or corroborated by any of the so called experts. The defense brought witness after expert testimony. The defense only coroner couldn’t even remember Trayvon. You and many other people need to get over it… Tragic death but the justice that put Zimmerman on trial and only put him there at the urging of many political fronts did it’s due process and found Zimmerman not guilty…
As far as a civil case. We can sue anyone for anything in our country… I suspect there might be a civil case. The Martins have already been paid 1 million dollars from the HOA… They will have to prove allot more in a court of law to get more. Mr Zimmerman doesn’t have a pot to piss in.. So doubt they will get anything from him.. It’s all about the money and so called revenge “justice” as Mr Sharpton would say.. I don’t see any of them marching on the Governor’s mansion in Ohio, Oh yeah that BHO home state, can’t do that….
Holder is doing his part to deflect this matter away from the administration doing their job…Watched him this morning.. I doubt he could have a face to face with any juror and not have the women eat him for lunch…

vanwadreamer — July 17, 2013 at 9:52 a.m. ( | suggest removal


manthou — July 17, 2013 at 9:40 a.m.

Thank you for the link, great read, it explains many things I couldn't put in my post.

frobert — July 17, 2013 at 9:52 a.m. ( | suggest removal


manthou — July 17, 2013 at 9:36 a.m.

Crazy stuff! I'm afraid if people were sued for trashing the C, they'd take it out on others or explode.

I hope Lou's shoulders stay broad, I'm sure many are watching this.

nailingit — July 17, 2013 at 10:02 a.m. ( | suggest removal


Anyone see that Liz Cheney is running for the Senate? I'm sure Dick is behind it, and pushing her forward.

Prepping for the people. :)

nailingit — July 17, 2013 at 10:06 a.m. ( | suggest removal


vanwadreamer — July 17, 2013 at 9:52 a.m.

Even the juror that has been doing interviews said that Zimmerman created the situation that led to Trayvon's death, in most courts that is manslaughter.

Are you claiming that BHO is from Ohio? Did that come from the same source that said Trayvon was "buff and muscular"?

frobert — July 17, 2013 at 10:08 a.m. ( | suggest removal


Is there a place called Ohio in Kenya?

That would explain it.

Ohiostanya

nailingit — July 17, 2013 at 10:12 a.m. ( | suggest removal


///Pat Robertson: Is Obama a “crypto-Muslim?”///

He added that the prospect is "chilling" VIDEO

The 700 Club’s Pat Robertson was very concerned about the “chilling” prospect that President Obama is a “crypto-Muslim,” asking guest Erick Stackelbeck, a conservative writer, “What is it it with the Obama Administration? Do you think Obama is a crypto-Muslim, or what’s the story?”

Stackelbeck replied that Obama is a “revolutionary leftist,” and “if you have that mindset, in my view, you will work with other entities that you may not agree with on everything, you will work with other entities against a common foe. For the hardcore left, for the hardcore Islamists, the common foe is Judeo-Christian western civilization.”

Watch, via Right Wing Watch:

http://www.salon.com/2013/07/16/pat_robertson_is_obama_a_crypto_muslim/

nailingit — July 17, 2013 at 10:52 a.m. ( | suggest removal


According to an article in the Stranger today, Seattle environmental activists are being approached and questioned by the FBI.

We have neighborhood activists here who feel passionately about coal trains and the proposed petroleum transfer area at the Port of Vancouver.

Can we expect similar visits here?

[link text][1]

[1]: http://slog.thestranger.com/slog/archives/2013/07/17/yes-the-fbi-is-approaching-climate-change-activists

manthou — July 17, 2013 at 12:02 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Wyoming has near same population as Clark County. It's not difficult to know one another there. Alan Simpson says if Cheney runs against Enzi, the Democratcs could win the state keeping control of the US Senate. Liz would rather lose then be assured Democratics losing the Senate.

cuchi — July 17, 2013 at 12:31 p.m. ( | suggest removal


cuchi — July 17, 2013 at 12:31 p.m.

Welcome to the forum!

Also I've observed gerrymandering districts have an inertia that can work against those enacting it, as will as for. A phenomenon of sorts.

Many on the right are turning inward for solutions, leaving them in an empty room.

Personal professional ideology, (defined as a politician who wants to keep his government job) taking precedent over one's party success..

I can't remember it happening to this degree. It's a contributing factor in the downfall of the GOP imo.

///Liz Cheney to Challenge Senator Michael Enzi of Wyoming///

Wyoming’s other senator, John Barrasso, also a Republican, wasted no time on Tuesday in declaring his allegiance to Mr. Enzi. “Mike Enzi is a friend, a mentor and a tremendous U.S. senator for Wyoming. I support his re-election,” he said.

And Wyoming’s sole House member, Cynthia Lummis, told reporters in the Capitol that Ms. Cheney’s move was “bad form,” suggesting that the she run in Virginia, where she lived in McLean until she moved to Wyoming. Ms. Lummis said last month that she wanted to run for Mr. Enzi's seat herself if he retired.

The National Republican Senatorial Committee also made clear that it would support the incumbent, as is its policy.

Other colleagues have also begun to rally to his side. He was chosen last weekend to give the weekly national Republican radio address, and Senator Rand Paul, Republican of Kentucky, said in an interview with Politico that he would support Mr. Enzi next year.

But the senator has just $488,000 in the bank and has raised a paltry $171, 000 in the last three months. “Money-raising has always been a problem for me,” Mr. Enzi said Tuesday.

Ms. Cheney, with ample financial connections, is likely to be a formidable fund-raiser. Her father has been talking up her candidacy with top Republican donors in New York City, and Ms. Cheney will also have the support of some Bush donors. She also will be able to tap conservatives who are especially unhappy with Mr. Enzi’s support for a bill that would force consumers to pay sales tax on goods purchased online.

Read more @ http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/17/us/politics/liz-cheney-to-challenge-senator-michael-enzi-of-wyoming.html?_r=0

nailingit — July 17, 2013 at 1:20 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Well, here's another NY Times article, this time on the failure of the CRC (just in case you all are not sick of the subject yet).

Interesting coverage from 2500 miles away:

[link text][1]

[1]: http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/17/us/Washington-and-Oregon-Cities-Try-to-Sidestep-Political-Gridlock-to-Build-a-Bridge.html?_r=1

manthou — July 17, 2013 at 3:32 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Would this guy even be charged in Sanford Florida?

///John Henry Spooner Guilty: 76-Year-Old Convicted In Fatal Shooting Of Wisconsin Teen Darius Simmons///

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/07/17/john-henry-spooner-guilty_n_3613457.html

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oPzBPmSMEMQ

nailingit — July 17, 2013 at 4:28 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Hey Manthou, thanks for the link. Now that was an interesting article and a nice take on it.

Quite a few humorous words about Portlandia also...

luvithere — July 17, 2013 at 5:41 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Manthou -

Meanwhile, in other news, it seems police departments across the country have cameras mounted that take photos of traffic and store the pics for future use. The reason given is to help with ID'ing suspicious cars, helping with Amber alerts, etc, etc. But there's plenty of people who see this as another infringement on our privacy - Sam knows where we go and when.

http://autos.aol.com/article/driving-somewhere-theres-a-government-record-of-that/?icid=maing-grid7|maing7|dl2|sec1_lnk3%26pLid%3D345217

And I suspect we've had these here for years. A few years ago I got a couple of mailers from the CRC. They noted when my truck was on the I5 bridge in one, and on the I205 bridge in the other. They then proceeded to ask all their polling questions about why I drive on them and how often. After a bit of digging I turned up that WSDOT was providing the names and addresses matching the vehicle tags to the CRC. I called Customer Service at WSDOT Headquarters to try to lodge a complaint against releasing my personal info to a quasi-government operation, and was politely told "tough shit."

Which was about the time I started reading up on the CRC and speaking out against it.

roger — July 17, 2013 at 5:59 p.m. ( | suggest removal


roger: Nothing we do is private in this electronic age, sad-to-say. I heard about the license photo record and my condolences.

An attorney friend (volunteers with the ACLU) showed me the Electronic Frontier Foundation non-profit: everything you wanted to know about current citizen surveillance and how to better protect against it. When you have time, it is worth perusing.

An informed citizenry..........harder to manipulate.

[link text][1]

[1]: https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2013/07/technology-protect-against-mass-surveillance-part-1

manthou — July 17, 2013 at 6:25 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Couv.com had an interesting interview with a lady (Dr. Cyndi Romine) who runs a local organization helping to combat teen sex slavery. A lot of the interview was local numbers, explaining the M.O. used to rope the girls in and get them to pull tricks, and flashing pics of a couple of seedy looking motels. OK - pretty standard stuff. She did make an excellent point about all the teens hanging out at Van Mall being at risk, due to the restrooms being located at the far end by an exit. What I did like is that she says that once Van PD gets moving they're very good, but that they're restricted by the 48 hour rule with being able to declare a child a missing person. She says her organization serves as a go to place to start the search earlier.

http://couv.com/featured/child-sex-trafficking-van-pdx

Something else I picked up on - They operate out of the US Digital operation. Madore's Exec Asst posted the website for the operation -- http://www.calledtorescue.org/ I looked at all her tabs, and didn't see anything tying her operation to Living Hope or any other church.

Hmmm... Is it just possible we'll have to recognize that Madore can do something right?

roger — July 17, 2013 at 6:39 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Hmmm... Is it just possible we'll have to recognize that Madore can do something right?

roger — July 17, 2013 at 6:39 p.m.

Or it's where he trolls, naaaaah not him.

hawkeye — July 17, 2013 at 6:51 p.m. ( | suggest removal


been 'disabled-er' for awhile, so i actually DID watch the zimmerman trial. not being able to move around kinda ups the importance of the teevee.

the prosecution not only had no evidence to prove the charges, it didn't even have enough to bring him to trial. zim's trial, from beginning to this minute, was a political move and continues to be.

i have no doubt that, if the prosecution had ANY actual evidence, they would have opened their case w/it and given it to every news program in the world. the legal fact was; they couldn't back up their charges AND the defense provided SO MUCH REASONABLE DOUBT the only tension was whether this jury would deliver a racist verdict, like the OJ jury did.

**KN_:**"Now, for your little idea to work, then everyone has to have a smart phone or computer. But not every one has a smart phone or computer. So obviously, for equalities sake, the taxpayers would have to provide those things for those who don’t have them. But that would be unfair to provide for some but not for others – so government would just have to buy computers and or smart phones for everyone. Then there would be the payment for the service providers. And don’t forget about frequent updates for newly invented technologies."

DON'T GIVE THE FASCIST ANY IDEAS!!!!!

DeeLittle — July 17, 2013 at 6:58 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Manthou - Nice link - Thanks. Some I recognize from military use, though it's advanced quite a bit from then. Bottom line is that nothing is truly secure.

roger — July 17, 2013 at 7:06 p.m. ( | suggest removal


DeeLittle — July 17, 2013 at 6:58 p.m.

The O.J. verdict was in no way racist, police corruption left the jury with no choice. All the defense had to do is convince the jury that one piece of evidence was fraudulent and the jury could not rely on any of it. If you want to blame anybody for the verdict blame the police officer who pleaded the fifth on the stand. He was later convicted of perjury so the jury was correct in their assumption that he perjured himself.

The prosecution in the Zimmerman case did have enough to bring it to trial, but they put forth such a poor performance, some prosecutes are saying they threw the case on purpose. Zimmerman was a grown "man" and he got into an altercation of his own making(according to the jurors interview) he couldn't hold his own against a 17 year old kid 46lbs lighter than himself, and like the gutless wimp that he is, he resorted to the use of a firearm. I am an ardent supporter of the Second amendment, but if you choose to go armed the responsibility to use properly is on you. Zimmerman was arrested for two violent felonies, had a protection order granted against him for physical abuse, he has allegations against him for incestuous rape, and he has a gang tattoo, he is not the face conservatives should want on gun rights.

frobert — July 17, 2013 at 7:24 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Zimmerman was arrested for two violent felonies, had a protection order granted against him for physical abuse, he has allegations against him for incestuous rape, and he has a gang tattoo,

frobert — July 17, 2013 at 7:24 p.m.

Why do you keep bringing this crap up? Even if it was true, NONE of it was admissible in court during this trial. It DOESN'T matter.

Also, you call him a "gutless winp" but before you said he was "MMA trained". Which is it?

Seriously fro, think with your brain, not your emotions.

hawkeye — July 17, 2013 at 7:48 p.m. ( | suggest removal


hawkeye — July 17, 2013 at 7:48 p.m.

You only re posted half the sentence, the rest of the sentence was "he is not the face conservatives should want on gun rights." when the whole sentence is taken into consideration, your assertion that it was not admissible in trial is irrelevant, because I did not maintain that it was, or should have been.

The defense maintained and the jury ruled that he was afraid for his life, no healthy reasonable person would be afraid of a 17 year old kid 46lbs lighter than themselves, therefore he is by his own admission a "gutless wimp", if he had at least one (inappropriate word committed) he wouldn't have needed a firearm.

frobert — July 17, 2013 at 8:01 p.m. ( | suggest removal


should have been omitted not committed, dang self correcting devices.

frobert — July 17, 2013 at 8:04 p.m. ( | suggest removal


roger: While Madore does offer non-profits a place to call home, these are non-profits with his stamp of approval. So, there are strings attached to that. I am sure if one of them had posted a "Build that Bridge" poster in the window, he might have a sit-down with them.

Free speech and all, but only if you agree with him.

I want to find something I like about him. I really do. I would like to trust his judgment, but he is so agenda-driven, he does not hear alternative views.

I listen to all the BOCC meetings on Tuesdays and the board meetings the following day. I am trying hard to find some common ground.

Right now, it is a kiss of death to be endorsed by him, he is so polarizing and controversial.

The forced prayers and Don Benton killed any warmth I might have held for the guy. It was not the anti-CRC advocacy.

But hey, I keep watching and listening, keeping my mind as open as I can, waiting for that surprise change-of-heart from him.

manthou — July 17, 2013 at 8:17 p.m. ( | suggest removal


@manthou — July 17, 2013 at 8:17 p.m
I am sure if one of them had posted a "Build that Bridge" poster in the window, he might have a sit-down with them.

Non-profits are neutral, if they posted a sign for/against would that not be considered "lobbying"?

soul_pancake — July 17, 2013 at 8:40 p.m. ( | suggest removal


FROBERT:

WOW. you took the bait, hook line and sinker.

1. i lived in LA then (hometown, too)

2. we didn't exactly have an unbiased news source; LA Times, KTLA, KABC, CBS, KNBC, KTTV, or any radio station. closest you could get to 'objective' was KFWB radio.

3. OJ was b*i*g. super mega sports star. NOBODY (including me) believed he'd kill anyone.

4. first televised trial. appropriate it would be a los angeles one. it was a freaking CIRCUS. all day, repeats all night, broadcast EVERYWHERE IN THE CITY. since you're such an expert, surely you remember the judge's name......

5. the only things real about that trial were the dead body, a good detective's ruined career (mark furhman was a 2nd victim of oj with the whole damn county as accomplises) and alllllllllllllllllll that money oj paid his lawyers.

AND OJ'S BLOOD-SOAKED GLOVE.

6. it was special-made, highest quality leather. know what....? leather loses it elasticity when it's covered in something wet and isn't properly cleaned and treated. OF COURSE he couldn't get it back on!

7. remember when the jury forewoman announced the "verdict"? the words were, "we the jury find the defendant not guilty....". listen to her say it. it takes on a whole new dimension of meaning.

8. i heard the prosecution's case. i heard the defense's case. the m-* was guilty.

yeah. you hit one of my 'buttons'.

DeeLittle — July 17, 2013 at 8:51 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Manthou, you might get quite old and grey waiting for that change. The anointed ones never do.

luvithere — July 17, 2013 at 8:54 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Dee, I lived there also and it was a total circus. Unbelievable BS all the way through.

But everybody I know upon hearing verdict had just one thing to say. The dude is guilty as hell.

luvithere — July 17, 2013 at 8:59 p.m. ( | suggest removal


.....oh, and fro...?

before you hafta go to google, the judge was Lance Ito

DeeLittle — July 17, 2013 at 9:01 p.m. ( | suggest removal


DeeLittle — July 17, 2013 at 8:51 p.m

Mark Furhman was a victim of his own perjury, nobody else made him break the law, he blew the case for the prosecution, not the jury.

Did you hear this case or just what you wanted to hear, the prosecution firmly established through witness testimony, that Zimmerman ran after a fleeing person, in the State of Florida and probably most other States this is assault, they never brought it up in their argument,that Zimmerman was not "acting lawfully" as defense statute requires. The prosecution also firmly established through witness testimony that Trayvon was right handed and that he had no injuries to his right hand, again they left to chance if the jury could put this together. I have no idea if they would have gotten a conviction if they had put forth a proper argument, but they should have put forth a proper argument. Zimmerman is a loose cannon, he will be stupid again, and we should not want him as the face of gun ownership, because it will blow up in our faces, and we will lose the right to defend ourselves against real criminals. He did not defend himself against a criminal he killed an innocent middle class kid.

frobert — July 17, 2013 at 9:07 p.m. ( | suggest removal


DeeLittle — July 17, 2013 at 9:01 p.m.

I remember the case well including the late show with the "dancing ito's " routine. When the verdict was reported, I was having lunch with my home states highest ranking career law enforcement official(retired at the time) he insisted, and I trusted his judgement above all others in the matter, that the police and their shoddy tactics were to blame.

frobert — July 17, 2013 at 9:13 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Roger ---

The person giving the invocation last week was Mr Romine from Kings Church.

http://www.calledtorescue.org/

http://www.romineministries.org/

I believe Greg Romine was the leader of the last prayer breakfast.

Former US Rep Linda Smith has an organization with a similar mission. She was surprised to learn there was sex trafficking here in the US because all her efforts were overseas & then she looked around and discovered 82nd in Portland. Voila! Sex trafficking right here in River City. The organizations don't seem to overlap even though they have headquarters here. She has publicized the story of the girl from La Center a lot.

http://sharedhope.org/who-we-are/leadership/

langenthal — July 17, 2013 at 9:31 p.m. ( | suggest removal


frobert — July 17, 2013 at 8:01 p.m.

Sorry fro. wrong again and again and again.......

hawkeye — July 17, 2013 at 9:56 p.m. ( | suggest removal


FRO...

"In June 2012, Alan Dershowitz, a well-known defense attorney who has been a professor at Harvard Law School for nearly half a century, criticized Corey for her affidavit in the Zimmerman case. Making use of a quirk of Florida law that gives prosecutors, for any case except first-degree murder, the option of filing an affidavit with the judge instead of going to a grand jury, Corey filed an affidavit that, according to Dershowitz, “willfully and deliberately omitted” crucial exculpatory evidence: namely, that Trayvon Martin was beating George Zimmerman bloody at the time of the fatal gunshot. So Corey avoided a grand jury, where her case likely would not have held water, and then withheld evidence in her affidavit to the judge. “It was a perjurious affidavit,” Dershowitz tells me, and that comes with serious consequences: “Submitting a false affidavit is grounds for disbarment.”…" National Review article

DeeLittle — July 17, 2013 at 10:07 p.m. ( | suggest removal


LUV

where in the "urban sprawl" did you live?

i lived in SFV and worked in Koreatown.. 8th & Western. i kinda laugh every time some van/portland commuter complains about 'the traffic'.

DeeLittle — July 17, 2013 at 10:16 p.m. ( | suggest removal


DeeLittle — July 17, 2013 at 10:07 p.m.

Second degree murder does not need to go before the grand jury in Florida, and it usually doesn't, the prosecution is not required under the law to make the defenses case in their affidavit or to the Grand Jury, with only one side being heard, the they would have handed down and indictment. This is jest rhetoric and not very good rhetoric.

When did conservatives start caring what Dershowitz has to say anyway? I thought anything he said was automatically suspect.

frobert — July 17, 2013 at 10:52 p.m. ( | suggest removal


fro...

zim's lawyers are getting a lawsuit ready b/cause the prosecution withheld that very same evidence plus a ton more when replying to discovery motions. and yeah, they DO hafta give this info to the judge.

your convoluted comment about dershowitz does nothing to address his issue.

DeeLittle — July 17, 2013 at 11:03 p.m. ( | suggest removal


soul_pancake: Here are many non-profits with a political bias: Sierra Club; PETA, Planned Parenthood, Birthright, etc. Many non-profits are not neutral and lobby legislatures with enthusiasm.

I'll cop to using a poor example, but the bottom line is this: Madore does not let anyone into his house without vetting their politics and faith first. His choice.

I have a theory about why he has been giving the Humane Society such a hard time. It's Executive Director, Stacey Graham, was a big proponent of light rail and the CRC. She was very open about it due to her public endorsements as a private citizen. That is her personal choice and had nothing to do with how she ran the Humane Society.

Now that Madore is in a position of power over the Humane Society, he is flexing his muscle and punishing Stacey Graham for her politics by red-lighting the 2 year contract.

Anyway, he calls the shots at US Digital, as he can. Afterall, he pays for the building and it is his business. He tries to do the same in county government, with mixed success. Sometimes he gets slapped back, sometimes he does not.

The Wednesday Board meetings are very revealing. Exhausting to listen to, but important to get the big picture of how he micromanages staff and departments to the point of inertia.

If I hear, "Let's table that item until next week" one more time, I am going to scream.

manthou — July 17, 2013 at 11:19 p.m. ( | suggest removal


DeeLittle — July 17, 2013 at 11:03 p.m.

None of O'Mara's press releases have mentioned suing the State, can you please provide a source?
It is not common practice in any jurisdiction in this country for the prosecution to include evidence for the defense to the grand jury or the affidavit, it is not grounds for a lawsuit it is not grounds for disbarment, it is the way our system works. Washington State uses the affidavit system and they do not include defense in the probable cause affidavit.

frobert — July 17, 2013 at 11:25 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Great stuff from our conservative cherubs in Utah.

///Aaron Osmond, Utah State Senator, Calls For End To Mandatory Education///

In his post, Osmond called on parents to decide whether or not their children should go to school, and asked for exploration into how much time children should be in school. He wrote that the state should not mandate 990 hours a year of education, and instead should let local school districts make the decision.

Read more @ http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/07/17/aaron-osmond-mandatory-education_n_3612150.html

nailingit — July 17, 2013 at 11:30 p.m. ( | suggest removal


FRO

can't provide a written source: the sources were interviews w/the family's atty on various cable news shows.

DeeLittle — July 17, 2013 at 11:44 p.m. ( | suggest removal


....A N D......

the law enforcement branch is separate from the legal branch of a gvt. since it's taxpayer money ...
AND it's FAIR, anything the prosecution (cops, labs, etc) turns up is LEGALLY REQUIRED to be turned over to the defense. the process is called "discovery".

after the defense serves 'discovery' papers on the prosecution, it's SUPPOSED to result in giving the defense ALL THE INFORMATION THE STATE HAS.

in zim's case, multiple discovery apps had to be file and threatened to 'go public' b/cause the prosecution WOULD NOT honor the discovery motions. they had to virtually reach into the prosecution's office with the full power of The People to get the information they're entitled to.

so, to recap, zimmerman was a political target ONLY from the beginning. Holder's FBI isn't even cooperating in the "civil rights charges"

we're losing our constitutional rights daily now.

this trial is one more example of that process.

DeeLittle — July 18, 2013 at 5:38 a.m. ( | suggest removal


Dee, I lived in the 'other' valley and at one point worked in Reseda. You are right, people here have zero idea about a real traffic jam.

luvithere — July 18, 2013 at 5:54 a.m. ( | suggest removal


DeeLittle — July 18, 2013 at 5:38 a.m.

Zimmerman's defense released unrelated information in order to "taint" the jury pool. It is not a Constitutional right to run a public smear campaign on the victim of a crime. The fact that Trayvon smoked a little weed or liked firearms are irrelevant at most Trayvon deserved a spanking. I have startling news for you, boys like guns, the talk about them they take pictures of them, if he didn't have one in his possession on the night of his murder, it has no bearing on the case.

Zimmerman was a grown "man" he started something with a kid 46lbs lighter than him. He did not have the testicular fortitude to stand up to his much smaller opponent so he used a firearm and killed him. Since the homicide, the Zimmerman legal team and his supporters have conducted a overt smear campaign on his victim. O'Mara released what he called a "fight club Trayvon was refereeing", which turned out to be two homeless men fighting over a bicycle. He released pictures of Trayvon blowing smoke. He released a picture of a handgun, that is unrelated to the crime.

The Zimmerman affair is a horrible tragedy, an innocent child was killed, and the fallout will be the rights of people who are truly in danger. Due to this incident self defense statutes will be repealed. Zimmerman may have used these statutes to go free, but as a result people who are truly in danger and truly defend themselves will go to prison.

Zimmerman is not the face that us conservatives should want on gun ownership he has a violent history. The face we put on gun ownership should be an innocent man or woman that is protecting their family from a real criminal.

frobert — July 18, 2013 at 6:15 a.m. ( | suggest removal


luvithere — July 18, 2013 at 5:54 a.m

I spent a week there on night!

I left SF at 3pm going North on 5. You move at 2 or 1 mph for hours. Try it in an 18 wheeler.

After that, I only headed out after 9pm. It was a little better. 1am was the best.

hawkeye — July 18, 2013 at 6:24 a.m. ( | suggest removal


Hawk, one day it took me four hours to get home. accident on I5, pretty much shut down 101, 134,... Around SFV into Glendale. A Nightmare.
Took a better job much closer to home shortly after that and managed to never drive to the other valley again. Once they put in the new freeway over on west side, traffic doubled going from LA to San Gabriel Valley.

luvithere — July 18, 2013 at 6:37 a.m. ( | suggest removal


///N.Y.: Individual health insurance 50% cheaper under Obamacare///

Current $1,000 rates could drop to as low as $380, the governor's office predicted. It's welcome news for Obamacare advocates who touted the announcement as an example of the law's positive impact.

"Competition and transparency in the marketplaces, plus the hard effort by those committed to making the law work, are leading to affordable, new and better choices for families," White House press secretary Jay Carney said Wednesday. "We're going about the business of implementing a law that provides those benefits."

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-250_162-57594216/n.y.-individual-health-insurance-50-cheaper-under-obamacare/

nailingit — July 18, 2013 at 7:13 a.m. ( | suggest removal


The Northwest and Vancouver could emerge as key tipping points in the global fight against climate change, nationally known environmental activist and author Bill McKibben told a capacity crowd at Clark College on Wednesday night.

http://www.columbian.com/news/2013/ju...

---Elections have consequences. A look into what Don Benton will be pushing in the near future.---

///ALEC Bill in Three States To Require Climate Change Denial In Schools///

The American Legislative Exchange Council (ALEC) - known by its critics as a “corporate bill mill” – has hit the ground running in 2013, pushing “models bills” mandating the teaching of climate change denial in public school systems.

January hasn’t even ended, yet ALEC has already planted its ”Environmental Literacy Improvement Act“ - which mandates a “balanced” teaching of climate science in K-12 classrooms - in the state legislatures of Oklahoma, Colorado, and Arizona so far this year.

In the past five years since 2008, among the hottest years in U.S. history, ALEC has introduced its “Environmental Literacy Improvement Act“ in 11 states, or over one-fifth of the statehouses nationwide. The bill has passed in four states, an undeniable form of “big government” this “free market” organization decries in its own literature.

ALEC’s ”model bills” are written by and for corporate lobbyists alongside conservative legislators at its annual meetings. ALEC raises much of its corporate funding from the fossil fuel industry, which in turn utilizes ALEC as a key - though far from the only - vehicle to ram through its legislative agenda through in the states.

http://www.counterpunch.org/2013/02/01/alec-bill-in-three-states-to-require-climate-change-denial-in-schools/

nailingit — July 18, 2013 at 7:41 a.m. ( | suggest removal


nailingit — July 18, 2013 at 7:41 a.m.

Have you actually read the proposed act, or are you just relying on one blatant propaganda rag, that is using as it's only source another blatant propaganda rag? Does teaching two sides of a hotly contested issue really scare liberals that badly? Public schools are part of government, how is requiring them to teach two sides of issues "big government"?

frobert — July 18, 2013 at 7:54 a.m. ( | suggest removal


frobert — July 18, 2013 at 7:54 a.m.

---Elections have consequences. A look into what Don Benton will be pushing in the near future.---

Biased thinking produces statements such as...

"blatant propaganda rag"-"blatant propaganda rag"-"scare liberals"

Although unclear which post you are addressing, I assume it's this one. It's much simpler to source, rather than having to respond by deduction.

..

"When did conservatives start caring what Dershowitz has to say anyway? I thought anything he said was automatically suspect."

frobert — July 17, 2013 at 10:52 p.m.

Your bias is even bias against the biased. Pre-determined thought and your narrow minded ideology permeates almost all of your posts. I'm not even sure if you're aware of it.

Better to stick with the Martin thing.

Looks like you're re-directing your emotional outbursts.

Lucky me...

nailingit — July 18, 2013 at 8:31 a.m. ( | suggest removal


Although unclear which post you are addressing, I assume it's this one. It's much simpler to source, rather than having to respond by deduction.

nailingit — July 18, 2013 at 8:31 a.m.

---

nailingit — July 18, 2013 at 7:41 a.m.

frobert — July 18, 2013 at 7:54 a.m.

..

I'm deducing another cup of coffee.

nailingit — July 18, 2013 at 8:37 a.m. ( | suggest removal


nailingit — July 18, 2013 at 8:31 a.m.

My comment concerning Dershowitz was regarding Dee's often railing against his organization the ACLU, yet quoting him as fact when it suits her position. I personally enjoy some of Dershowitz's views on civil liberties, but he is not the all knowing jurist that some believe him to be. Ask his clients like Mike Tyson, Jim Bakker and Patricia Hearst how well he did at getting them acquitted.

frobert — July 18, 2013 at 9:47 a.m. ( | suggest removal


MR Froberwitz-

What years did you practice law in the Sunshine State???. Are you currently practicing here in the Couve'???

vanwadreamer — July 18, 2013 at 2:04 p.m. ( | suggest removal


*Zimmerman was a grown "man" he started something with a kid 46lbs lighter than him. He did not have the testicular fortitude to stand up to his much smaller opponent so he used a firearm and killed him.
frobert — July 18, 2013 at 6:15 a.m.*

Are you *sure about that*, frobert???

George Zimmerman's height - 5'8", Weight - 185 lb
Trayvon Martin's height - 6'1.5", Weight - 175 lb
(*snopes*)

A little history rarely mentioned in the news. Trayvon Martin was a football player for the Optimist League during his high school tenure. His position he played, (according to *ESPN*) - Outside Linebacker, is usually responsible for outside containment. This includes the strong-side and weak-side designations They are also responsible for blitzing the quarterback.

Blitzing the quarterback, eh???

goldenoldie — July 18, 2013 at 2:28 p.m. ( | suggest removal


goldenoldie — July 18, 2013 at 2:28 p.m.

No, you are mistaken on both counts, according to the autopsy report, Trayvon was 5'11" and weighted 158lbs. Zimmerman was 185lbs when he was processed into jail 6 weeks after the incident, but on the night it happened he told police he weighed 200lbs, the next day his physicians office weighed him at 204lbs. 204 minus 158 is 46lbs difference.

Trayvon was a volunteer for the "optimists league", selling hotdogs and soda in their consession stand, he played football from age 8 until 13, they do not accept players past 13, that is when he stopped playing football. Flag football does not "blitz" the quarterback

frobert — July 18, 2013 at 2:47 p.m. ( | suggest removal



goldenoldie — July 18, 2013 at 2:28 p.m.

I just read the snopes article and it clearly states that he was 5'11" and weighed 158lbs and links to the autopsy report. Where are you getting your information?

frobert — July 18, 2013 at 2:59 p.m. ( | suggest removal


vanwadreamer — July 18, 2013 at 2:04 p.m.

Your point?

frobert — July 18, 2013 at 3:04 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Fro-
As a minority I might some day need a lawyer. You never know...It's always nice to have one in your back pocket that can actually put a case together with facts...Someone is always cracking on minorities...And I carry...

vanwadreamer — July 18, 2013 at 3:12 p.m. ( | suggest removal


From Clark County Citizens for Good Governance ---

Ron Goodman uploaded a file.
The Board of Commissioners will be meeting as the Board of Health at 9:00 am Wednesday to further shrink county government by eliminating the Public Health Director position and combine two positions into one Public Health Officer-Administrator (Maybe we should save some money also by combining two Clark County Commissioner positions into one. We don't need Commissioner Mielke; we can just give Commissioner Madore two votes and save $102,224 in salary, $7,200 in car allowance + benefits). They will also vote to eliminate two other positions in Public Health.

Board of Health Consent Agenda July 24-2013.docx

langenthal — July 18, 2013 at 7:10 p.m. ( | suggest removal


frobert — July 18, 2013 at 2:52 p.m

I read the pdf autopsy and NOWHERE did I see the medical examiner write that he "had no damage on his dominate hand". What page did you say that was on?

And is it frobert esq.?

hawkeye — July 18, 2013 at 7:19 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Goldenoldie --- from autopsy report

He weighed 158 pounds, was 71 inches tall.

http://lawofselfdefense.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/trayvon.martin.autopsy.pdf

langenthal — July 18, 2013 at 7:23 p.m. ( | suggest removal


langenthal — July 18, 2013 at 7:10 p.m.

They have to make up the difference for the loss of revenue from the parks deal and the permit deal. Or should I just refer to them as "Madore Mess-ups"?

hawkeye — July 18, 2013 at 7:25 p.m. ( | suggest removal


hawkeye — July 18, 2013 at 7:19 p.m.

Did you read the part that said "no injuries except those noted"?

frobert — July 18, 2013 at 7:42 p.m. ( | suggest removal


frobert — July 18, 2013 at 7:42 p.m.

Yes, but!!!! That isn't the same as saying "no damage on his dominant hand", is it?

hawkeye — July 18, 2013 at 8:18 p.m. ( | suggest removal


hawkeye — July 18, 2013 at 8:18 p.m.

Yes, it is.

frobert — July 18, 2013 at 8:33 p.m. ( | suggest removal


langenthal — July 18, 2013 at 7:10 p.m.

Goodman has a great point! :))

Then Madore would have himself in his own back pocket. This guy defines "ass backwards" daily.

nailingit — July 18, 2013 at 9:18 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Nailingit ---

Remember one of DM's goals is to appear on 20/20 or 60 Minutes. He's not a young man so he has to move forward [backward?] in a short time if he's going to get national attention.

APIL today:

http://blogs.columbian.com/all-politics-is-local/news/its-a-meaningful-life/

langenthal — July 18, 2013 at 9:36 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Yes, it is.

frobert — July 18, 2013 at 8:33 p.m.

See, that's what's wrong with you. Get help.

hawkeye — July 18, 2013 at 9:48 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Once in awhile you come across a story that is uniquely American, something that could only happen in the good old USA. :)

///'Pink Mass' Has Made Westboro Baptist Church Founder's Mom Gay In Afterlife, Satanists Claim///

By now, everyone's just about had it with the Westboro Baptist Church, a group whose members use national tragedies as opportunities to forward anti-gay hate speech. Ironically, their planned protests often bring communities together in opposition to their message. Now, an unlikely group has mounted a gay offensive against the WBC.

On Sunday, July 14, the Satanic Temple, a New York-based organization that seeks to foster "benevolence and empathy among all people" through Satan, performed a ritual called a "pink mass" at the Mississippi gravesite of Catherine Idalette Johnston, mother of WBC founder Fred Phelps Jr.

The aim? To "turn" the WBC founder's mom gay for all eternity.

"Upon completion of the pink mass ceremony, Catherine Johnston is now gay in the afterlife," notes the Satanic Temple website, which has the cheeky URL www.westboro-baptist.com. "Fred Phelps is obligated to believe that his mother is now gay ... [and] if beliefs are inviolable rights, nobody has the right to challenge our right to believe that Fred Phelps believes that his mother is now gay."

The latter assertion appears to be a play on the WBC's own stance that their beliefs are totally infallible.

The Pink Mass was performed twice -- once with two gay men, and once with two lesbians -- in an affirmation of the Satanist Temple's belief in "freedom and the pursuit of happiness for all people." The temple is now encouraging same-sex couples to visit the grave and perform their own pink masses.

According to the Satanist Temple website, temple spokesman Lucien Greaves officiated the ceremonies while wearing horned headgear, and then proceeded to put his penis on Johnston's grave (NSFW, obviously).

Vice reports that the idea for the pink mass came about in April, after the WBC threatened to protest the funerals of the Boston Marathon bombing victims. The website compared the the pink mass to "the Mormon practice of baptizing the dead, only much gayer."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/07/18/pink-mass-westboro-baptist-church-gay-satanists_n_3616642.html?utm_hp_ref=mostpopular

nailingit — July 18, 2013 at 9:52 p.m. ( | suggest removal


langenthal — July 18, 2013 at 9:36 p.m.

And I thought Jesus taught him not to be a respecter of persons.

Kinda like Mitt's 47% remark. This guy is something else.

A town hall would be great.

nailingit — July 18, 2013 at 10:01 p.m. ( | suggest removal


wow....didn't know there were other LA refugees here in (relatively) tiny 'couve.

went back awhile ago for my sister's funeral....

i am SOOOOOOOOOO GLAD God moved me here. except for Tommy's tamales, that is.

didn't even recognize my childhood home, santa monica. malibu infected it and now it's just another tourist trap. think venice on steroids.

DeeLittle — July 18, 2013 at 11:19 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Hey dee, when was the last time you were in SM before this? I love your 'Venice on steroids.' That's a great description.
When they started to renovate the pier in the late 80s it became an instant tourist trap. Lost all its funky charm (and aged surfers on the prowl) on the spot.
I have run into folks from Every burb down there, and my neighbors are from Pomona. They left in the 70s. Another friend is moving here next month.
Most of us never looked back. Too bad actually, as southern Cal IS beautiful. It just got destroyed by humans and their lack of foresight. Too many people crammed into a small space.

luvithere — July 19, 2013 at 6:41 a.m. ( | suggest removal


Every once in awhile, we get a glimpse of what this "Tea Party" movement is all about.

///That Awkward Moment When The Tea Party Rally Gets Overtly Racist-VIDEO///

While the event was linked to a number of controversial figures, including an organizer who has argued for eugenics and called African-Americans a "retrograde species," that didn't deter Republicans like Rep. Steve King (Iowa) and Sens. Jeff Sessions (Ala.) and Ted Cruz (Texas) from showing up to join the chorus against a pathway to citizenship for undocumented immigrants.

When Ken Crow -- a co-founder of the Tea Party Community -- stepped up to the microphone, however, George Zornick of The Nation said he was taken aback by the talk of "breeding" and racial purity that followed.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/07/18/gop-anti-immigration_n_3618392.html

nailingit — July 19, 2013 at 8:29 a.m. ( | suggest removal


"From those incredible blood lines of Thomas Jefferson and George Washington and John Smith. And all these great Americans, Martin Luther King. These great Americans who built this country. You came from them. And the unique thing about being from that part of the world, when you learn about breeding, you learn that you cannot breed Secretariat to a donkey and expect to win the Kentucky Derby. You guys have incredible DNA and don’t forget it."

Ken Crow -- a co-founder of the Tea Party Community

nailingit — July 19, 2013 at 8:32 a.m. ( | suggest removal


luvithere and DeeLittle: I have been enjoying your personal memories of your former stomping grounds. Makes me understand why the Pacific NW saw such an influx of SOCal folks. A few could not take the gloomy weather and went back home. Glad you were able to stick it out and discover how wonderful it is here.

After living in the NW since 1976, I tend to take it for granted UNTIL I travel. Not many places meet or exceed the overall quality of life I think we enjoy here. :)

Speaking of quality of life: Everyone, you all must have received your primary ballots by now. Please take the time to VOTE, because it makes a difference. I can actually hardly believe that there are good people still willing to serve in public office, but there are many and we need them:-)).

manthou — July 19, 2013 at 8:32 a.m. ( | suggest removal


langenthal, thanks for sharing the link. It was appreciated.

I apologize ahead of time to anybody with a queasy stomach with what I'm about to write.

Frobert, you know anything about the human body and what happens to it post mortem? If you check the information regarding the autopsy which was 15 hours after the incident as well as reading up on any scientific website regarding the subject, you will note the significance of weight loss in a cadaver in 12-24 hours and that is without a GSW. When you read the autopsy, you will note 2300 ml of blood found in his pleural cavity. Not to get technical on you or anything, but that equals 2.3L and that doesn't account for blood loss outside of the human body. If you take the descripts of each vital organ, you will note in comparison to a living human versus one who is deceased, the difference in mass/weight/volume when comparing the coroner's findings to the scientific information. I won't get into liquefaction of the cadaver and all that, but you should truly study up on the information before making your statements. I do note there was a small abrasion to his left forefinger. Could he have been wrestling Zimmerman with control of the pistol? Would this have been a story if Martin had overpowered Zimmerman with the pistol?

Regarding his football history, it doesn't matter if it was flag football or not. The young man had an obvious fondness for football. You think he didn't watch professional or college football??? You think he didn't study up on how the game was played professionally? Rather shallow argument on your part, fro fro.

Regarding Zimmerman, in reading his medical record, I note it was listed that he was taking glucosamine and chondroitin at time of initial exam ...something taken to reduce the affects of arthritis, possibly a previous condition which inhibited his activities of daily living.

Regarding the weight of either person in this instance (or anybody else for that matter)...no two scales are accurate. Anybody knows that. I've been to three different doctors at three different locations (one being at Peacehealth SWMC) in one day before...and all three DIGITAL scales had different readings with a 10-15lb discrepancy. And that goes for Martin's autopsy as well.

goldenoldie — July 19, 2013 at 8:37 a.m. ( | suggest removal


nailingit: Ken Crow, by his own admission in 2011, described himself to a reporter at the Des Moines Register Guard like this:

“I’m a political rookie. I’m the dumb cowboy. I’ve been a rodeo cowboy my whole life, and I don’t know how to be anything different.” No one, not even people in his chosen profession, can escape his verbal blunders.

His self-effacing "aw shucks" excuse works on some people, but not many any more.

I even think the Tea Party forced him out a couple of years ago.

By the way, I had a doctor in Louisville, Kentucky once tell me in the examining room: "We'll have you breeding in no time." They love their racehorse references there. :)

manthou — July 19, 2013 at 8:49 a.m. ( | suggest removal


@luvithere — July 19, 2013 at 6:41 a.m
It just got destroyed by humans and their lack of foresight. Too many people crammed into a small space.

Like what is happening here? 192nd-164th-Mill Plain..

Several senior living facilities

from Mill Plain- Burton (28th)-SR500 on 112th

Nothing but strips of senior living facilities, apartments, condos, townhouses

and what is it they want to build at the Water Front? Oh, that's right, more apartments, condos and townhouses.

Where Evergreen airport once stood, plans were for a strip mall with apartment complex, like the one, just east of it. Strip mall, apartments, motel, business buildings.

Never once have they considered the heavy traffic or what it would do to the streets. Mill Plain mostly. Crevasses are starting to open
4-5" wide now. State says no money to fix the problem, where is all the tax from fuel and other sources that was suppose to be for street maintenance go?

soul_pancake — July 19, 2013 at 8:55 a.m. ( | suggest removal


I was stationed in LA (Los Alamitos) 87-89; hated every minute of it. My job was advisor to Guard and Reserve units; a typical day was drive 2 hours, have an hour or two meeting, and then drive 2 hours back. I opted to pay higher rent and live in Buena Park; most of my coworkers made that couple of hour commute to either the San Bernadino/Riverside/Ontario area, or up to the Foothills area. Like Dee said the other day - What we have here is nothing.

Manthou - Have you made it to the Blue Ridge Parkway on any of your vacations? The scenery is fantastic, and there's a lot to do. http://www.blueridgeparkway.org/

roger — July 19, 2013 at 9:02 a.m. ( | suggest removal


langenthal: I listen religiously to the entire audio of every Wednesday board time at BOCC, even if I think I don't have the time. It is not good for my own health to do so, though. I usually get quite angry with the lack of progress and how much time is wasted on trying to school Madore in Ethics 101. Even Mielke has to reign his pal in every so often: "You can't do that, David."

I need to email Mr. Hidle and thank him for shining a light on some of the amazing gems that come out of Madore's mouth. However, I worry the bad publicity it generates for him will cause him to start editing himself and go on the down and low.

No, he has bigger plans for himself and Clark County is just a short stop on the way.

Madore is realizing that he won't be able to pay for those Cannon Beach family vacations on a state legislator's salary. His love for micromanaging will not allow him to give up so much power at US Digital, either. He is heading for burn out.

manthou — July 19, 2013 at 9:03 a.m. ( | suggest removal


roger: Thanks for the Blue Ridge Parkway link. Stunning. It is now on my bucket list as we are traveling by auto more, now that I am working less. "Bout time.

manthou — July 19, 2013 at 9:15 a.m. ( | suggest removal


langenthal: I just read your post on the proposal not to fill the CC Health Director position!

My husband and I ran into John Wiesman and his husband, Ted, at a local restaurant a couple of months ago and we had a great conversation. I thanked him for his excellent public service here and wished him well in Olympia. He was nationally-respected and helped bring Clark County into the 21st century in terms of best-practices public health policy. He now is on the governor's staff.

I specifically asked him: "Madore and Mielke would not appoint some Don Benton clone to try to fill your shoes, would they?"

He assured me that nothing like that would happen. However, it now appears that they think they don't need to fill his enormous shoes at all?

What else do you know about this? Fill me in, please.

What they are trying to do is to strip power from those persons who might promote evidence-based policy and practice, I fear.

Clark County, Texas. Right here in WA State.

manthou — July 19, 2013 at 9:26 a.m. ( | suggest removal


goldenoldie — July 19, 2013 at 8:37 a.m.

The proper response, when FACTS prove your propaganda sites wrong is to say "I was mistaken" and move on.

It is simple physics, if the body is immediately sealed in a bag, which his was, it can lose no mass. Blood loss at the scene could account for some drop in weight, but with half of his body's initial blood supply recovered from the chest cavity it is a fair bet that very little was left at the homicide scene.

No, pointing out your misrepresentation of the "facts" is not a shallow argument, and neither playing youth football, years earlier nor watching football on television, turned Trayvon into the big scary guy you seem to think he was. Trayvon was a scrawny 17 year old kid, he was no where near as big as my 13 year old son. Zimmerman on the other hand had been studying mixed martial arts intensively 9 hours per week for a year leading up to the incident.

On the subject of Zimmerman's medical records he was also taking Adderall and it's side effects include, unreasonable anger and aggression.

Zimmerman's home scale and his physician's scales seem to be very close, I gave more credence to the professional scale. The Medical Examiner's scales like any other crime investigation equipment require periodic calibration, their scales are accepted by the courts as fact.

frobert — July 19, 2013 at 9:29 a.m. ( | suggest removal


Morbidity has set into the basement. :(

Amazing line of thinking that puts this kid on trial like he did something wrong.

Conservative thinking is often mired in @ 8:29.

Having said that, it's good to see that not all of it is.

What's the point of raking this kid's dead body over the coals, to prove something...?

Just a personal opinion...let it go. At least the autopsy report.

Sheesh.

nailingit — July 19, 2013 at 9:59 a.m. ( | suggest removal


Manthou ---

Consent Agenda
10:00 a.m., Tuesday, July 23, 2013

ADMINISTRATION

1. Request approval of an Interlocal Agreement between Clark County, the City of Vancouver, and the Washington State Department of Social and Health Services to support the Elder Justice Center. (Fiscal Impact: yes no; + - n) Reference

2. Request approval of a change to the pay plan for the General Services Director; add one Program Manager I position, delete one Program Coordinator II position; delete the Deputy County Administrator position, and realign responsibilities appropriately. (Fiscal Impact: yes no; + - n)

BUDGET

3. Request approval to delete the position of Budget Director and reclassify the position of the Department Finance Manager to the new classification of Budget Manager, effective July 1, 2013. (Fiscal Impact: yes no; + - n)

langenthal — July 19, 2013 at 10:12 a.m. ( | suggest removal


Manthou ---

from Clark County Citizens for Good Governance

David Shehorn Public Health responds to outbreaks of diseases and controls their spread to prevent further illness. Public Health inspects restaurants to ensure the food you eat is safe. Public Health monitors the quality of vaccines used to immunize you and your family. And Public Health enforces regulations to make sure septic systems operate properly and pose no threat to human health. John Wiesman, former Clark County Public Health director, did a great job in organizing and staffing the Public Health Department and preparing for emergencies along with the routine tasks of protecting public health. The new (acting) Director Marni Storey deserves the opportunity to continue this tradition of public service without having her department decimated. But possibly there is a hidden agenda for a new politcal appointee.

Ron Goodman John Wiesman, who holds both masters and doctorate degrees in public health, and was president of the National Association of City and County Health Officials, left Clark County Public Health to become Washington State's Secretary of Health. The Public Health Director managed the 140+ employee department - including budget and payroll, as well as 10 program areas with 5 direct reports, aside from the health officer. The Health Officer, Dr. Alan Melnick, is responsible to control and prevent communicate disease and to plan and respond in health emergencies, such as disasters, bioterrorism, and pandemics to stop the spread of infection or disease. Apparently, Dr. Melnick must have so much time on his hands that he will now be able to so both jobs handily, especially if emergency strikes.

langenthal — July 19, 2013 at 10:20 a.m. ( | suggest removal


I have posted on here many times the fact that I spend most of my life as a republican, before becoming a libertarian. I did not leave the republican party, they left me.

The republican party passed the 14th amendment, without a single democrat vote in congress. They worked tiredly for almost 100 years to pass meaningful civil rights legislation. Finally they got enough democrats on board to pass the legislation. This legislation was needed because democrats where murdering unarmed black children, and southern juries would not convict them. Now registered democrat George Zimmerman kills an unarmed black child, and many republicans seem to be cheering his death. What ever happened to my GOP?

No offense meant to current democrats, just an observation of irony.

frobert — July 19, 2013 at 10:25 a.m. ( | suggest removal


nailingit: Not enough going on in other online forums to keep the bored occupied. So, it creeps back over here to conversation it enthusiastically maligned and derided when it suits. Don't feed it. Like pond duck poop, it pollutes.
_________________
I just realized that maybe all this elimination of jobs at Clark County is more than simply cost-savings (a good thing). It is a brilliant way to reduce government checks and balances (a very bad thing).

If you don't have independent expert voices to challenge a commissioner-majority's brilliant plans (see where it got West Point grad Kevin Gray), you eliminate informed challenges to tom foolery.

And that is where The Columbian comes in: keep up the pressure. You guys must be in hog heaven. Boss Hogg Heaven.

manthou — July 19, 2013 at 10:28 a.m. ( | suggest removal


frobert: I think most of us embrace a little bit from here and a little from there, politically. Our primary party-of-choice disappoints for whatever reason and we look elsewhere for ethical and wise leadership.

Right now, I am in a crisis-of-confidence with our administration over the eavesdropping on private citizens and journalists for the sake of "safety." I don't like the violation of search and seizure protections when they were terrorizing citizens in their own homes, their safe sanctuaries, when looking for the Boston bombing suspects.

I don't like to see people willingly giving over these rights because it will be easier for the government to take more.

manthou — July 19, 2013 at 10:40 a.m. ( | suggest removal


From the President just minutes ago: Trayvon Martin could have been me 35 years ago:

[link text][1]

[1]: http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2013/07/19/obama-trayvon-marin-george-zimmerman/2568811/

manthou — July 19, 2013 at 10:58 a.m. ( | suggest removal


manthou — July 19, 2013 at 10:40 a.m.

One thing about the Trayvon Martin tragedy is the republican leadership and elected officials are not the one's trashing the victim. I don't now of any of them doing so. It seems to be the rank and file types that have lost sight of republican ideals, and conservative values.

frobert — July 19, 2013 at 11:04 a.m. ( | suggest removal


Manthou I could not agree with you more.The rights we are losing worry me greatly.Then last night on the news I see Portland police are videoing license plates and storing them for 4 years.I suppose it does help recover stolen cars and solve some crimes but I feel it infringes on my rights as a honest citizen.They keep intruding more and more.How do we stop this?I wish I had a answer.On a lighter note don't miss the cars cruising past your place Saturday.It should be a fun time.Look for a red 67 442 and wave.

timerick — July 19, 2013 at 11:06 a.m. ( | suggest removal


On the Trayvon thing. Not a better pair than his parents. A class act.

manthou — July 19, 2013 at 10:28 a.m.

Unfortunately, you might have inspired Daisy D. :-}}

manthou — July 19, 2013 at 10:40 a.m.

Now this is interesting, and opens the gates for some of us "lefties" to bitch about this Admin! :)

I read and hear so many on the right denouncing Obama/Admin over falsehoods and ridiculous nonsense, thoughtful & genuine criticisms many times are lost.

I agree with your post. It's a primary concern, and needs to be addressed now, as well as in detail from future candidates. Debates, editorials, interviews etc.

Obama acts disinterested with this and a few other things. Although his nature is to be removed emotionally, (although I appreciatie his pragmatism and level head) at times it's almost dysfunctional.

A major issue with future candidates. Dems & Repubs alike will offer a different perspective than Obama. Liberals & Libertarians sometimes make good bed fellows.

Which segue's into my favorite bitch. The drone strikes and our ongoing overseas interventions. Another item Libs & Libbers can mate with.

Admittedly without any regard for brevity, :) I'll wrap it up & say we need strict transparent oversight.

nailingit — July 19, 2013 at 11:35 a.m. ( | suggest removal


timerick: Will be at the Gut early. We can actually watch many beauties drive by from our porch as our house is on the loop-back route as cars return to the gut. I do love the crowds on Main. So much cheering and good will. (Hope the politicians stay away) I will look for you and shout a hello. Love classic cars and Vancouver has plenty to admire.

frobert: Remember, many of our Founding Fathers did not trust the "rank and file" citizens to be educated enough to make good decisions. Hence, our Electoral College.

I think there are under-informed members of all parties who just want to demonize victims, scrap and divide for the thrill of the fight. It is a mob mentality based on hate and fear, not facts, and it is not attractive. Downright depressing, in fact.

manthou — July 19, 2013 at 11:40 a.m. ( | suggest removal


nailingit: The ol' man and I were walking around Ft Vancouver on the 4th and I stopped at the Libertarian booth and picked up some literature.

Who helped me the most on a personal issue in our state legislature this year? A legislator from an Eastern district who leans Libertarian, especially with constitutional protections.

We laughed about the party differences, but, when he spoke to a committee with my concerns in mind, he told them: "The Constitution protects all of us and we all should unite to protect it."

Amen.

manthou — July 19, 2013 at 11:47 a.m. ( | suggest removal


langenthal: Bless your heart. Thank you for the info.

manthou — July 19, 2013 at 11:50 a.m. ( | suggest removal


http://momocrats.com/2013/07/17/thought-the-john-birch-society-was-dead-think-again/
Review of the book “Wrapped in the Flag: A Personal History of America’s Radical Right” by Claire Conner. Conner’s story proves this: The John Birch Society is alive, vibrant, and more powerful today than they were when they were considered to be in their heyday. From the introduction, where she discusses Charles and David Koch: …I shuddered when I heard my father’s favorite rally cry: “We’ve come to take our country back.” These newly minted right-wingers were rattling off old Birch slogans:
Immigrants are the enemy. Protect our borders and deport all illegal aliens.
Gays are ungodly. Pray the gay away from children and teens.
Unemployed people don’t want to work, and poor people keep themselves poor, on purpose. If we cut the minimum wage and eliminate unemployment compensation, everyone will have a job.
Unions caused the economic collapse by shielding lazy, incompetent public employees.
Rich folks are “job creators,” and we need to protect their wealth.
Social Security is unsustainable, and Medicare and Medicaid have to be restricted so that corporations and “job creators” have lower tax rates.
Abortion is murder and must be outlawed even in cases of rape and incest. No exception means no exceptions; even in cases where the mother’s life is in danger.
The economic meltdown of 2008 came from high taxes on corporations, too many regulations, and poor people taking out mortgages they couldn't afford.
The government can’t create jobs, so stimulus programs don’t work. Cutting taxes creates jobs.
The government can’t limit the right to own or carry guns. If guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns.
America is God’s chosen nation, but our president can’t understand our exceptionalism. After all, he’s not a “real” American; he’s a Marxist, Socialist, Muslim racist who hates America.
I know that this new radical Right is a rewrite of the old John Birch Society. This time, however, the movement has enormous political muscle, unlimited dollars, and right-wing media support. This reality hit me after studying my parents’ files and personal writing, combing historical archives, and reading contemporary accounts and documents produced by the Birch Society itself.
Part of what readers will come to understand is how deeply entrenched JBS thought patterns are in contemporary conservative thought. But whether it’s called Americans for Prosperity or the John Birch Society, all readers will come away with how incredibly subversive right-wing thought is to American democracy. These are the same people who do not believe voting should be a right, who ally with the KKK and militia societies to perpetuate racial discrimination and hate toward anyone who isn’t white and Christian, and who wax eloquent about how charities should be solely responsible for the poor and sick while doing nothing to assist those charities’ work.

langenthal — July 19, 2013 at 11:58 a.m. ( | suggest removal


Friends of the Library Book Sale

Saturday & Sunday

Sunday Noon --- $2.00/bag

Sunday 4:20 pm --- free

langenthal — July 19, 2013 at 12:05 p.m. ( | suggest removal


One of the things I can't appreciate about Libertarians, is the failure to properly address what is perhaps the most important human rights issue of our time. And affects half of America!

I can't imagine having sleazy local politico's like Benton or Madore, (and they could be making these type of decisions one day), making personal judgements over one's body/medical care only a doctor and the person has the right to make.

If men could get pregnant there'd be a clinic on every corner. Why this can't be seen as an issue screaming in our faces I don't know.

This current wave of the anti-choice movement is out of control and needs to be put to be...

...aborted.

///Six-Week Abortion Ban Introduced In Texas///

The same day Texas Gov. Rick Perry (R) signed a bill that may lead to the closure of most abortion clinics in the state, Republican state legislators introduced a bill that would ban abortions as soon as the fetal heartbeat can be detected.

Many women don't even know they're pregnant after six weeks. In order to effectively detect a heartbeat that early into the pregnancy, doctors usually have to perform a transvaginal ultrasound, which is more invasive than the traditional jelly-on-the-belly procedure.

Read more @ http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/07/19/texas-six-week-abortion_n_3623926.html?utm_hp_ref=politics

nailingit — July 19, 2013 at 12:09 p.m. ( | suggest removal


nailingit — July 19, 2013 at 12:09 p.m
Nails, you ruined my Friday! What an absolutely horrible thought and it brings it so close to home. I will have nightmares. These two making such decisions? Can you imagine????

As for Texas. I have come to the conclusion that male Texans have V-envy. I think they are lacking not only in brains, but other parts as well.

luvithere — July 19, 2013 at 12:21 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Frobert, you mentioned that aggression and unreasonable anger is a side effect of Adderall, leaving the impression to the readers that this would explain Mr. Zimmerman's attitude the night of the shooting which is misleading anybody who reads your comments. Nowhere in the medical examination did it mention any alteration to his demeanor. You might re-read just how common those side effects are...like on rxlist.com, the most reputable site used by most (if not all) licensed pharmacists.

One note...if you look at the medical record in its entirety, the next list down from the one which mentioned the Adderall...it doesn't mention the pre-existence of Adderall in his list of active daily meds prior to this examination. This is a typo most medical transcriptionists would have sent the information back to the attending physician for clarification before providing any legal document permissible in court. The prescript was made on the thirteenth of February with no refills, but nothing was mentioned in the second. Regarding the case, there was no mention that I'm aware of regarding the Adderall and regular doctor appointments by the prescribing doctor. Are you aware of any?

Also Frobert, I do not admit that I am wrong on something when I am trying to further understand the situation. I make my statements and ask the questions, either to show clarification or for others to show proof otherwise. Regarding the snopes article, it was in July of this year. The discrepancy in their articles is not my error, but it is clear proof that the news isn't all that accurate.

I noticed you didn't react to the glucosamine/chondroitin comment I'd made. Is it because this could show the man suffers from arthritis which could hinder his ability to "put up a fight???"

goldenoldie — July 19, 2013 at 12:49 p.m. ( | suggest removal


"Why this can't be seen as an issue screaming in our faces I don't know."

Just to correct, this is and has been screaming to us "leftist leaners" :)

Where are the republicans who denounce this invasion of rights and personal property. American bodies for Christ's sake.

I'm almost surprised the right hasn't tried to control circumcision procedures. Almost.

luvithere — July 19, 2013 at 12:21 p.m.

I wouldn't be surprised if this is Dave's main goal.

I guess it depends on what God has told him, as well as his ongoing conversations on high.

nailingit — July 19, 2013 at 12:51 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Frobert...one more comment. If I have provided information to which is incorrect, then I admit it. I admit I was incorrect on Trayvon Martin's height and weight, but instead of him being 5'1.5" and 175lb, he was 5'11" and 158lb according to the link you provided. That would be 2 1/2" shorter and 17lb different...not that much different, but he was still taller and in better physical shape than Zimmerman, according to the exams you provided.

All I know is...we didn't see it happen and we both were not there. We go by the word of the witnesses and their credibility and the word of Zimmerman as well as the autopsy and medical exam reports. Zimmerman had obvious wounds of a struggle...a struggle to survive. There was no obvious injury or bruising on Martin other than a small contusion on an index finger that showed up on the autopsy which showed Zimmerman going after Martin other than by the point-blank struggle of two men fighting over a gun (at least that's how I see into this entire useless battle between the two). Martin had no bruising. No gashes...no other injury other than the fatal chest wound. As long as that is all they have to go by, who are we to judge if Zimmerman was telling the truth or not?

I'm not saying Zimmerman wasn't at fault. As far as I'm concerned, when you pack, you're partially to blame for the result if deadly force is ever used. I'm also not saying Martin wasn't partially to blame for all this. As far as I'm concerned, male hormones played a BIG role in this deadly fight...and it came from both sides in this case.

Sometimes you have to ask "Why is it so important for the media frenzy in cases such as this? Just what is their ulterior motive?"

goldenoldie — July 19, 2013 at 1:09 p.m. ( | suggest removal


luvithere and nailingit: I do very much worry about the Madore/Mielke hidden agenda. If you do not replace Public Health leadership (John Wiesman) roles with science experts who know their stuff and would challenge policies that are not evidence-based, then you can pass all sorts of crazy notions.

A few years ago, Mielke said that he thought mental illness could be helped by "tough love" policies. Afterall, it worked for him. :) His momma just slapped him upside the head after he got back from Vietnam, and by God, he got his butt off the couch and was cured.

Then Mielke wanted to deny county healthcare services to undocumented workers who live here. No sense of reality that an undocumented worker who becomes ill from a highly-contagious disease can infect a great deal of others. But hey, they don't get those vaccines and should go back to Mexico if they want them.

Wiesman did a good job of pushing back on those policies and pushing back on Mielke. He always did it respectfully and with a straight face, amazingly.

Without a John Wiesman at the helm of Clark County Public Health, we could see all sorts of wild "Dr. Mielke" and "Dr. Madore" ideas, most based on what they think the bible tells them, not science. Rick Perry would be proud.

I expect that at Environmental Services now with Donnie Benton being their rubber stamp king. Maybe they will put political crony at the head of Public Health.

manthou — July 19, 2013 at 1:30 p.m. ( | suggest removal


goldenoldie — July 19, 2013 at 12:49 p.m.

"this could show the man suffers from arthritis "
Very unlikely since he was intensively training in mixed martial arts 3 hours per day 3 days per week.

goldenoldie — July 19, 2013 at 1:09 p.m.

How do you figure 17lbs? Zimmerman's phsysican's office weighed him the next morning at 204lbs. As far as Zimmerman's possible.

Sorry but Zimmerman did not have "obvious signs of a struggle to survive", his injuries were more like a 10 year old out playing a little too rough.

frobert — July 19, 2013 at 2:01 p.m. ( | suggest removal


nailingit — July 19, 2013 at 12:09 p.m.

"One of the things I can't appreciate about Libertarians, is the failure to properly address what is perhaps the most important human rights issue of our time. And affects half of America!"

I think you should look at the positions of most libertarians, and not just Ron Paul, he is the only "pro life" libertarian that I have ever heard speak, not to say there couldn't be more, but it is likely rarer than "pro life" democrats.

frobert — July 19, 2013 at 2:08 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Nail I think a lot of people are not against abortion they are just against using it as their primary birth control measure.I know some feel it should not be used at all.But there are a lot that do see its usefulness.I know I don't want to see us turning into a Texas.And I would not want anyone telling me what I can and can not do with my body.Especialy if I were a woman.

timerick — July 19, 2013 at 2:42 p.m. ( | suggest removal


timerick — July 19, 2013 at 2:42 p.m.

There are many many laws that tell us what we can and can't do with our own bodies, such as drug scheduling, seat belt and helmet laws. Abortion may be a more personal decision, but if you support government control over our personal decisions, how can you expect them to stop when you believe it becomes unreasonable?

frobert — July 19, 2013 at 3 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Fobert I do not support government control over my personal decisions.I also do not like the fact that they pry into our personal lives.It looks to me like the government is getting its hand in to too much of our lives now.Phone recordings,information the IRS has on each one of us and now police being able to video our license plates and store them for what they say is only 4 years.A few years ago my shop was broke into and a 38 Smith was stolen.The gun was purchased by me in 1982 from a licensed gun store.I had the serial # at my home.3 days later the officer called and asked if the number he had matched mine.It did.He pulled that number out of the federal data base with just my name.I was always told that the records of gun purchases were destroyed after a set amount of years that I believe was like 7 years.I could be wrong on that.The gun that was stolen was bought 27 years prior.

timerick — July 19, 2013 at 3:26 p.m. ( | suggest removal


timerick — July 19, 2013 at 3:26 p.m.

I applaud your consistent opposition to government intrusion, so many people on the left and right vehemently oppose government intrusion until it is their side doing the intruding.

frobert — July 19, 2013 at 3:49 p.m. ( | suggest removal


frobert — July 19, 2013 at 2:01 p.m.

It's obvious you are trying to convince me of something there's no need to convince. You are set in the conclusions you have made with the facts you presented. Yes, you clarified two things. Height and weight. No you have not clarified the facts regarding what happened that night. You could go on and on for years, arguing what you claim to know as being fact but the truth is...you weren't the attorney. You weren't the investigators and you weren't on the jury. The jury has made their decision. Have you seen anybody attempt to appeal the decision? If not, then ask yourself why.

It's a simple answer, frobert. The burden of proof was in the hands of the prosecution. There's just not enough evidence to convict the guy. Now if we were like London England with all the street cams, then maybe Trayvon's family would've had a chance...but we're not London.

case closed

goldenoldie — July 19, 2013 at 4:59 p.m. ( | suggest removal


goldenoldie — July 19, 2013 at 4:59 p.m.

You made claims that Trayvon was the big b.... scary guy, I countered with facts about the case. I have closely followed the case, and the claims from the skinhead and neonazi sites will not fly with me. Trayvon Martin was a middle class kid with middle class problems. You attempted to correct my facts with racist propaganda of the worst kind. Trayvon was not "buff" he was not a high school football player, he was not a "gang banger". He was a middle class kid with a college educated mother and brother, and his father is a Master Mason. Trayvon spent most of his free time volunteering at the Miami Optimists club with his father. Stop disrespecting the dead and spreading lies about him, he was the victim.

Yes he was found not guilty, but George Zimmerman was previously arrested for two violent felonies for which he pleaded guilty to a misdemeanor and had to complete court ordered substance abuse counseling. He has a protection order granted against him for abusing his fiance(not just the preliminary, which is automatically issued). He is currently denying claims of incestuous rape. To top it all off he has a gang tattoo on his arm.

No conservative should want this guy as the face of gun ownership, I can't think of any other reason besides racism for anybody to support him. Zimmerman is the "thug" people tried to make out Trayvon to be. George Zimmerman is a loose cannon, he is dangerous and he will kill again.

frobert — July 19, 2013 at 8:31 p.m. ( | suggest removal


@frobert — July 19, 2013 at 8:31 p.m

Why aren't you fired up over the killing of Christopher Cervini like you are Trayvon Martin?

soul_pancake — July 20, 2013 at 12:35 a.m. ( | suggest removal


soul_pancake — July 20, 2013 at 12:35 a.m

Because FOX didn't tell him to.

hawkeye — July 20, 2013 at 7:28 a.m. ( | suggest removal


soul_pancake — July 20, 2013 at 12:35 a.m

First of all the Trayvon Martin homicide is current. Secondly they were the "thugs" many people are making Trayvon out to be.

That being said, It is still offensive that an unarmed child was shot by a grown man.

frobert — July 20, 2013 at 7:32 a.m. ( | suggest removal


frobert — July 19, 2013 at 8:31 p.m.

Regarding the tattoo...I noticed you didn't mention the tattoos on Trayvon which to any concerned mother of someone under 18 wouldn't have allowed tattoos in the first place. Secondly, a person can have a tat of skull and crossbones, but that doesn't make them a Hell's Angel. No substance to your comment, fro.

At no time did I say Trayvon Martin was buff and that he was a gang banger. I didn't even attempt to make such claims. Where is it you are getting your assumption, fro???

Claims from what you call skinhead and racist sites don't fly with you. Well fro, they don't fly with me, either. THAT we definitely agree on! Seems to me you're the one playing the racist card here by even mentioning hate of such magnitude when it wasn't even in the discussion between you and me in the first place...and you're feeding into the race-card frenzy at full speed which will only serve to further divide our nation. As far as I'm concerned in, we're HUMANS. That's the ONLY race I know of...no person of any color, just personality differences which sometime clash.

I state for the record that as far as I'm concerned, this was a needless situation which resulted in the sad ending of a young man's life. He was walking through a neighborhood which had a history of crimes against the homeowners and renters. He was in the wrong place at the wrong time as any other human could have been. One of the residents, the leader of the neighborhood watch group happened upon him...did not recognize him and you can be sure that words and innuendos were exchanged. Push came to shove and the battle ensued. What if the tables were turned and it was the young man who had the gun??? It happens every day in anywhere USA, fro. The fact is...Zimmerman was tried and found not guilty and as long as people don't do something about tightening the laws when it comes to CCW and shooting the gun in public which could easily end up as what happened in Florida, GSW deaths will continue.

Please stop the nonsense and don't feed into the race-card frenzy. Be proactive about this...fight the laws in the books and contact your legislators. If you don't want to be reading up about such crimes, then do something about it rather than argue about what has already happened. Use these senseless loss of lives as a tool to help make that change...to make our world a better place.

goldenoldie — July 20, 2013 at 7:46 a.m. ( | suggest removal


I STILL say, had Trayvon been respectful when approached, none of this would have happened. My "guess" is, it was attitude that escalated and got him killed.

hawkeye — July 20, 2013 at 7:56 a.m. ( | suggest removal


Hawk, his attitude might have played a role, but show me a 17 year without one. Plus, he was followed. For no reason.
I wasn't there, I do not know what exactly went down. My gut feeling? Z is a wannabe cop, needed to feel good about himself, went against a direct order to stop, things escalated...
I doubt he set out with this goal in mind, and he should have stopped. But I really can't blame the victim here. And I see a lot of this.
Either way, this is a tragedy. I can only hope it opens a bit of soul searching as to our testosterone- driven society. and yes, I do feel there is racism involved.

But that's all just my opinion.

luvithere — July 20, 2013 at 8:32 a.m. ( | suggest removal


luvithere — July 20, 2013 at 8:32 a.m.

Thanks for your views on this. I don't blame anybody on this one. And on the other hand, I blame both. It was a stupid thing to happen and I think everyone involved should learn from it, keep it in the back of their minds and drop it. Nothing will be gained from pursuing this any longer. I know the families are hurting, but seriously, more lawsuits aren't going to bring him back.

hawkeye — July 20, 2013 at 9:37 a.m. ( | suggest removal


Hawk, if nothing else, this has taught me a bit more about how quickly things can go wrong. We have a kid dead, another's life ruined, and for what? Nothing.

luvithere — July 20, 2013 at 9:47 a.m. ( | suggest removal


luv- exactly

hawkeye — July 20, 2013 at 9:50 a.m. ( | suggest removal


Anyone have any thoughts about that "bi-partisan" letter sent on Jaime HB's letterhead to the state transportation director?

I have one: Huh?

Now, we are all making nicey-nice? Really? Or is this some sort of political ploy to deflect blame from the state Senate?

It is campaign chest-filling time, after all. I do know that some very big Republican businesspersons are livid that the Transportation funding package failed and have threatened to keep their good hard-earned dollars to themselves. Or to share with someone else who can get 'er done (as David Madore loves to frequently chirp).

Squawk!

manthou — July 20, 2013 at 10:04 a.m. ( | suggest removal


frobert — July 19, 2013 at 3 p.m.

Not to quibble, but government's "many many laws that tell us what we can and can't do with our own bodies, such as drug scheduling, seat belt and helmet laws" has to do with public safety.

But, government is only the organized accords of a society. Without finding consensus involving the overall function, which would definitely include safety, that community of people soon mutate to something other than a more or less ordered socity. The proof that not wearing seatbelts or helments affects more lives than just the non-wearer is legion. The same for 'drug scheduling', unless you feel the manufacture, sale, and use of LSD, heroin, or ecstasy should have no controls. That philosophy would also include 'beneficial' chemicals, such as OxyContin and Demerol, or even Ritalin to name just a few. So, while society votes to legalize marijuana it does not auto follow that all drugs should have none of society's strictures that are held in place by codes and prohibitions.. i.e government.

Abortion, or the right to decide, fits into none of the 'public safety' catagories, imo, and it nothing other than 'personal'. Unless one is willing to include healthcare, food, education, and security for the already born young. Without that, the stand on what I, or you, feel is good for 'that person over there' has little merit to any dialog pertaining to public safety, and looses huge moral ground when not including the wellbeing of the already born.

jacjak — July 20, 2013 at 11:47 a.m. ( | suggest removal


manthou — July 20, 2013 at 10:04 a.m.

I think a few might grin & bear it for the sake of progress.

Liz can tie this latest .. bi-partisan effort, to include a reduction in teacher pay & benefits. Don & Ann can include a raise in per-diem rates, offsetting the costs by introducing pre-fab ALEC Legislation.

nailingit — July 20, 2013 at 11:54 a.m. ( | suggest removal


Good points jacjak.

Not to say many anti- choice measures include unnecessary invasive medical procedures that go against a doctors will to include them.

To equate Anti-Choice measures with safety laws, might work in counter when considering the back room abortions which have cost so many their health or lives in the past.

nailingit — July 20, 2013 at 12:02 p.m. ( | suggest removal


@frobert — July 20, 2013 at 7:32 a.m

Like Trayvon Martin, Christopher Cervini was a 17 yr old killed by an adult. But in Cervini case, where was the outrage?

Difference is Cervini was white, the shooter black. Cervini was shot in the back.

Media has set off a feeding frenzy of race baiting and white guilt.
Along with the media we have politicians, Sharpton, Jackson, and even our prez flaming the fires. You my friend have fallen for the baiting like so many others.
The progress that has been made in race relations in 20+ yrs have all but been destroyed.
It's done, justice did her job, let it go.

Now this homie has work to do..you know, the honey do list.

soul_pancake — July 20, 2013 at 12:57 p.m. ( | suggest removal


In other news than the boring banter as usual on here....I'm hoping Washington's own Ryan Villopoto wins in Washougal! BRAAAAAP!!!!!

http://www.columbian.com/news/2013/ju...

mxfun118 — July 20, 2013 at 1:41 p.m. ( | suggest removal


soul_pancake and others who offered opinions on the Zimmerman case:

Crosscut ran a very interesting opinion piece penned by a conservative Seattle talk radio guy named John Carlson.

He points fingers squarely at the media and generated more comments on a Crosscut article than I have seen in a long time. Worth your time, if you have any to spare today.

[link text][1]

[1]: http://crosscut.com/2013/07/15/media/115568/john-carlson-trayvon-martin/

manthou — July 20, 2013 at 1:46 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Hawkeye...miracles DO happen, whether they be BIG or small. In this case, it's a small miracle (facetious of course) that has happened.

I agree with you regarding the Martin/Zimmerman case.

..

soul_pancake, if there was any religious leader who stepped up to the plate in the manner Sharpton or Jackson has done, he'd be labeled a white supremacist. Rather than getting everyone's dander up with their diatribe, they should be working to help people find a solution to the problem.

Too many opportunistic people jumping into the situation, making it a media frenzy-filled game of societal division once again! For GOD's sake, two families have been destroyed by this. One family will never spend the holidays with their young man. Another family will forever live with the stigma that a member of their family has needlessly taken a life. These so-called religious leaders jumping in front of the camera to shout out racism...and this cry out to start a civil lawsuit against Zimmerman for racism??? FOR WHAT???

Still shaking my head at how dumbed down our society has become...and it's only getting worse. I'm beginning to wonder if the Zombie Apocalypse IS a joke....or IS it???

goldenoldie — July 20, 2013 at 1:48 p.m. ( | suggest removal


manthou, it's only too obvious who has fed the frenzy.

Regarding your comment @10:04am...

Herrera-Beutler has made it clear from the beginning...she wants the crossing replaced but without light rail. She wants the people of Clark County to be heard. Others like Benton know it needs to be improved, but he will not lower his pride to allow TriMet to stomp on the people of Clark County with their debt-ridden disaster of a mass transit system.

I find it typical, the comment Rep. Moeller had to say on the FB side with his little hit against the loo rail opposition. Sounds like he's a wildcat still licking its wounds and is still bitter about the outcome of the failed design. He should have left that part out if he truly wanted people to take him seriously. Seems to me, he's trying to kill his chances of re-election.

goldenoldie — July 20, 2013 at 1:58 p.m. ( | suggest removal


manthou...regarding the article on crosscut...

Why is it the media hogs only focus on part of the facts to suit their agendas??? And why is it the media feeds off of these hogs???

sigh...

goldenoldie — July 20, 2013 at 2:02 p.m. ( | suggest removal


goldie: I dunno. You and I both share a skepticism for media.

Don't let the facts get in the way of a good story.

There is responsible press and irresponsible press. Many people forget the difference or simply do not care anymore.

manthou — July 20, 2013 at 2:25 p.m. ( | suggest removal


timerick and all the folks cruising the gut today (it is already hopping on Main St!), I have a gift for you.

Jerry Seinfeld has a series called "Comedians in Cars Getting Coffee."

He starts each segment with a classic car showcase, picks up a comedian in it, and drives to a restaurant for coffee and food.

When you want to laugh and forget about the world for under 20 minutes, any one of the segments is a gem.

My favorite? Old pals Mel Brooks and Carl Reiner! Priceless. They are beyond cute. Eat dinner together in front of the TV every night.

"What is the difference between a Frenchman and a Jew saying good-bye? A Frenchman leaves without saying good-bye and a Jew says good-bye without leaving."

Enjoy the cars and the conversation:

[link text][1]

[1]: http://comediansincarsgettingcoffee.com

manthou — July 20, 2013 at 2:31 p.m. ( | suggest removal


soul_pancake — July 20, 2013 at 12:57 p.m.

You started this conversation by spreading half truths and outright lies about Trayvon and his family, and than accuse me of "race baiting"?

You need to stop listening to false conservative talk show hosts. There is no room for racism in conservatism. The rights belong to the individual not the group.

frobert — July 20, 2013 at 5:15 p.m. ( | suggest removal


jacjak — July 20, 2013 at 11:47 a.m.

I am not saying that abortion should be outlawed, but I have to disagree, psychological trauma can be just as deadly as physical trauma. Making my own decisions about seat belts, helmets and drugs, is a fundamental right. The problem with those on the left is they feel the government has the authority over my body, no that is mine, and I have ceded it to my wife. People on the right on right on the other hand believe people have inherent rights to their own determination, except(insert endless list here). I believe in my right to determine my own destiny, and the government has no right to protect me from myself.

frobert — July 20, 2013 at 5:24 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Frobert, you are a bit on path of a completely lawless society, actually no society. If we all do what we want, if nobody wants a government, what does that makes us?
Where exactly should line be drawn?
Mind you, I am not accusing you of trying to get rid of government completely, I am truly curious where we should stop implementing any laws.

luvithere — July 20, 2013 at 6:03 p.m. ( | suggest removal


@frobert — July 20, 2013 at 5:15 p.m

Only one listening to those false conservative talk show hosts is..

To continue with your complaining about this, is race baiting and pushing white guilt.

Enough said.

soul_pancake — July 20, 2013 at 6:15 p.m. ( | suggest removal


frobert — July 20, 2013 at 5:24 p.m.

Can't wait to see you get pinched for no seatbelt, let the bitchin begin.

Oh, and while we are on that subject, when you get into a wreck and get pitched through the windshield because you refuse to wear your belt, who ya going to sue when your insurance won't cover you?

If you forgot, and I suspect you did, driving is a privilege, not a right.

hawkeye — July 20, 2013 at 6:15 p.m. ( | suggest removal


luvithere — July 20, 2013 at 6:03 p.m.

The purpose of Government is to protect you from criminals, not to protect you from yourself. How would allowing someone to make their own decisions about their own self be "lawlessness"? That is the problem with liberals, they think the government can make our personal decisions for us, but than scream that the government has no right to make decisions about abortion, or gay marriage, but polygamy is fine for the government to ban. You either believe in personal choice or you don't, if you claim to be "pro choice" why can't an old biker choose to not wear a helmet? If you believe in "marriage equality" why can't polygamists practice their religion?

frobert — July 20, 2013 at 7:16 p.m. ( | suggest removal


hawkeye — July 20, 2013 at 6:15 p.m.

How would I get "pinched" for no seat belt? Just because I don't believe in a law, doesn't mean I ignore it. I would stack my driving record up against anyone else, and probably come out better.

frobert — July 20, 2013 at 7:19 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Get off it, Fro. I asked a simple, honest question and did not need a diatribe against liberals. And how do you know your driving record is better than ours? What makes you think so?
Thanks for the new definition of government, too.

luvithere — July 20, 2013 at 9:24 p.m. ( | suggest removal


luvithere — July 20, 2013 at 9:24 p.m.

" I asked a simple, honest question and did not need a diatribe against liberals"

My "diatribe" was not just against liberals, you should read it again.

"And how do you know your driving record is better than ours? "
It is at least as good as anybody's because there is nothing on it.

frobert — July 20, 2013 at 9:28 p.m. ( | suggest removal


frobert — July 20, 2013 at 7:19 p.m

Big talk, little man.

hawkeye — July 20, 2013 at 9:28 p.m. ( | suggest removal



I tried to give you all a laugh yesterday with a bad joke (stolen from Carl Reiner) and a comedy website distraction, to no avail, so I will join back in a kvetch party with John Laird's column today.

First of all, I am thrilled he is still writing for the C, even though he announced his retirement for July. The times are too ripe for him to walk away from such easy target gifts and his editorial voice is one of The C's greatest assets.

Clark County will not be able to attract any candidate of worth and experience for any of the managerial jobs left after most being dismantled by Plain and Peanut. The word is spreading fast: Clark County is a circus and a joke.

I see more political crony appointments in the works. The excuse? We don't have a good pool of candidate applicants (of course, we orchestrated that).

Reminder: VOTE in the primary.

manthou — July 21, 2013 at 8:43 a.m. ( | suggest removal


nailingit: I see you were adding love to my comedic gift to the Forum. :)

manthou — July 21, 2013 at 8:45 a.m. ( | suggest removal


Watching Bob Schieffer interview J Boehner on Face The Nation.

Feckless.

A candid interview and encourage others to check it out (should be on youtube later) what this, current leader of the House is all about. Pointed questions and Schieffer bulldogs.

Boehner just said he wants his legacy to be one that was "fair to all."

He's a socialist at heart. :) But won't carry the weight it brings.

nailingit — July 21, 2013 at 8:47 a.m. ( | suggest removal


manthou — July 21, 2013 at 8:45 a.m.

It's all about love. :)

nailingit — July 21, 2013 at 8:49 a.m. ( | suggest removal


I just read Laird's column, and as usual spot on.

Always good to shine the light on our local M&M; sequestration experts.

I'm glad the Tea Party folks numbers are few, and the average age to be 94. I hope they continue to be a force a little while longer.

Displaying incompetence, bigotry and foolishness, they are sowing seeds of disdain that will last several election cycles.

Baggers are propelling this country left like nothing else could.

Some of the commenters to John's column; my God, these folks vote.

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nailingit — July 21, 2013 at 9:18 a.m. ( | suggest removal


nailingit: I hope you cut-and-pasted that great graphic. :)

With the Jeff Cogen emails to Sonia Manhas revealed, I hesitate to overuse my smiley face emoticons. They will never be the same after the Multnomah County scandal.

manthou — July 21, 2013 at 10:29 a.m. ( | suggest removal


nailingit: I hope you cut-and-pasted that great graphic. :)

manthou — July 21, 2013 at 10:29 a.m.

Oh yeah. I'd go nuts (more so) trying to figure it out.

(_8(I) I'm more on Homer's level.

nailingit — July 21, 2013 at 10:58 a.m. ( | suggest removal


luvithere — July 20, 2013 at 9:24 p.m.

That is not a new definition of government. You’ll find that expressed in Locke’s Social Contract Theory written over 300 years ago, which was the political basis of the US Federal Constitution. It’s the heart of Libertarian political philosophy and of the Libetarian Party.

Nor is Frobert’s concise response to your previous question a diatribe. Maybe the problem lies elsewhere.

kn_dalai — July 21, 2013 at 11:37 a.m. ( | suggest removal


frobert — July 20, 2013 at 7:16 p.m

"That is the problem with liberals, they think the government can make our personal decisions for us, but than scream that the government has no right to make decisions about abortion, or gay marriage, but polygamy is fine for the government to ban."

Seems to me it's the Republican conservatives (or tea party) that are trying to regulate "us". Isn't it Boehner and his crew that want to ban abortion and stop gay marriage? Pretty sure it isn't the liberals.

As for using your seatbelt or wearing a helmet, some of those out there are too stupid to figure out that those are both good ideas and need to be told to do it. And again, driving is still a privilege and not a right and regulating it is not a violation of your civil rights. You do, however, have the right NOT to drive.

hawkeye — July 21, 2013 at 12:24 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Kn, that was concise what Fro wrote to me? And he did NOT focus straight in on liberals?
Right.
Sure did not mention the conservatives.
Whatever.

My question to him was polite. I expected a reasoned answer.

luvithere — July 21, 2013 at 12:36 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Read Laird's story. Always a good read.

He's right on target, County employees better be watching their butts because they're going to be hitting the streets. Madore is ALL in favor of downsizing and outsourcing.

hawkeye — July 21, 2013 at 7:03 p.m. ( | suggest removal


hawkeye: By combining multiple jobs into one, Clark County is likely not to receive many eager candidates because the duties will be so formidable.

Without qualified candidates, Madore and Mielke might try another political crony appointee.

Let's see: who could be the new Public Health Director/Health Officer? One job was held by John Wiesman, a PhD. The other is currently held by MD Dr. Alan Melnick.

How about Tea Party darlin', Madore-supporter, country-crooner Dr. Rick Jackson?

Place your bets now.

manthou — July 21, 2013 at 7:31 p.m. ( | suggest removal


And now...

...the rest of the story.

John Locke was a recluse who defined paper & pencil thinking, one who never worked a day in his life.

Unless attending one elitist learning institution after another is a career.

And to note...

300 years ago, they were burning witches at the stake in Salem.

nailingit — July 21, 2013 at 7:32 p.m. ( | suggest removal


In case anyone doubts, here is Dr. Ricky crooning and begging for his country back on Madore's Couv.com website:

[link text][1]

[1]: http://couv.com/community/rick-jackson

manthou — July 21, 2013 at 7:34 p.m. ( | suggest removal


nailingit — July 21, 2013 at 7:32 p.m.

They didn't burn any witches in Salem, they hung them, in what is now Danvers, Massachusetts.

frobert — July 21, 2013 at 9:06 p.m. ( | suggest removal


luvithere — July 21, 2013 at 12:36 p.m.

I gave you a reasoned answer, it just wasn't the answer you wanted. Government is not there to protect people from themselves. Humans have an inherent right to self determination. You made the false statement that self determination was the same as a "lawless society, or no society at all. It should not be a crime to endanger one's self only to endanger others.

frobert — July 21, 2013 at 9:10 p.m. ( | suggest removal


frobert — July 21, 2013 at 9:10 p.m.

However it SHOULD be a crime to endanger oneself when it affects others. Don't you agree, fro?

hawkeye — July 21, 2013 at 9:18 p.m. ( | suggest removal


nailingit — July 21, 2013 at 7:32 p.m.

Locke was also a practicing physician for most of his life, so the claim of "never worked a day in his life" is grossly inaccurate.

frobert — July 21, 2013 at 9:18 p.m. ( | suggest removal


nailingit — July 21, 2013 at 7:32 p.m.

Locke was hardly a recluse. You have no idea at all what you’re talking about. Maybe you’re thinking of Adam Smith, who you once also called a recluse, which was equally wrong.

Locke’s Essay Concerning Human Understanding is a seminal work in the field now known as epistemology. A Letter Concerning Toleration is at the heart of religious toleration and seperation of church and state as envisioned by the framers of the US Constitution, later to become a mainstay of the Bill of Rights. If you want to criticize Locke, there is a very big opening, but you’ll have to find that one for yourself.

Paper and pencil thinking: a term I have introduced in recent weeks. You’ve always been highly imitative nail, as you are doing here again. Twist things around, and throw it in someone’s face, all smart ass like, instead of offering a substantive refutation.

There is a difference between a government preserving individual rights, and a government taking rights from one to give to another. One is passive, the other active. Your socialism is the latter, and has the higher burden of justification.

If you want to look for a freak, look at Bentham, and his Utilitarianism – government should do the greatest good for the greatest number of people. Sounds about right doesn’t it? Right up until you realize that that idea can be used to justify lynch mobs and is the antithesis of personal liberty. Freak? Look up what Bentham had done with his body after he died. Interesting no doubt. But don’t even begin to compare you’re alleged, and wrong suppositions about Locke and Smith with the truly weirdness of Bentham – one of your big heros. And you didn’t even know that now did you.

kn_dalai — July 21, 2013 at 9:53 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Paper and pencil thinking: a term I have introduced in recent weeks. You’ve always been highly imitative nail, as you are doing here again. Twist things around, and throw it in someone’s face, all smart ass like, instead of offering a substantive refutation.

kn_dalai — July 21, 2013 at 9:53 p.m.

Quite the emotionally driven response to a rather benign post. No worries knd, but not too classy to play victim here, as no one is getting "in anyones face". :) Relax.

Don't know where that "If you want to look for a freak, look at Bentham", "Freak?" came from. But I do know where "And you didn’t even know that now did you." came from Grasshopper. We should converse about dying to one's self and letting the ego go....(maybe another time)

What the world needs now is love, sweet love.

"Paper and pencil thinking: a term I have introduced in recent weeks."

Recent years to be correct. A common catch phrase that obviously resonates with you. Internalize, and quit beating yourself up.

"You’ve always been highly imitative nail, as you are doing here again."

You’ve always been highly imitative nail, as you are doing here again.

"Twist things around,"

punoɹɐ sbuıɥʇ ʇsıʍʇ,

and throw it in someone’s face,

No one is throwing anything. Just an observation about one of your heroes. Even though he was weird as hell and an unemployed elitist, it doesn't make him all bad. Considering his reputation as a cross dressing Socialist, some of his ideas aren't too strange. Viva La Femme!

A Bushtit in the nest, is worth more than a Robin's red breast.

*is this a prime example of what you mean by imitating and/or twisting something or other? If so, did I just do it again? And if that's true than did I jus.......

All smart ass like

Seriously. An over used phrase is the pot kettle thing. But I'll introduce it as clarifying.

I sometimes comment fire with fire. I intend for my posts to be taken with a bag of rock salt and a dose of humor. Sometimes I forget others not only take me, but themselves quite seriously. Hrrrrumph!

Much better than unrelenting pretentiousness. Just sayin'. It's all good. At a personal level, I find it sad when someone such as yourself has so much disdain for our Country, process and people. You seem to have a bitterness about you. Let it go bromeister, I've always wished you well, in spite of yourself.

You kinda remind me of the Cat (who I kinda like), only stuck on a different ideology. but just as obsessive. Your extremist views contribute in making progressivism and liberalism ideology/arguments viable & sustainable. Thank you for that. There are good takeaways from different mindsets, if you open yourself up.

What's another one of your catch phrases...about bias affecting perception? I encourage you to meditate on that. :)

BTW-I doubt back in the day, they would've liked your ideologically skewed biased takeaways about our American political process either.

Too many patriots.

nailingit — July 22, 2013 at 12:03 a.m. ( | suggest removal


What nonsense. Once again.

kn_dalai — July 22, 2013 at 9:02 a.m. ( | suggest removal


Randy hoisting the flag of racism. Just like his dad.

Cheers..

///Rand Paul Aide Resigns After Confederate Views Stir Controversy///

Hunter, a self-professed "Southern Avenger," came under fire after the Washington Free Beacon reported on his pro-Confederate views. Hunter, who co-wrote Paul's 2011 book, has said Lincoln assassin John Wilkes Booth's "heart was in the right place" and that he "raise[s] a personal toast every May 10" in honor of Booth's birthday. He also has worn a Confederate flag mask during public appearances.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/07/22/rand-paul-aide-resigns_n_3634390.html

nailingit — July 22, 2013 at 9:19 a.m. ( | suggest removal


A look into the future. Conservatives gone wild.

///Mike Lee: Republicans Will Shut Down Government To Block Obamacare///

Sen. Mike Lee (R-Utah) declared on Monday that he and other congressional Republicans would be willing to shut down the federal government in order to block further implementation of President Barack Obama's health care reform law.

Speaking on Fox News, Lee said Republicans determined that refusing to fund Obamacare was the "last stop" before the individual mandate and the law's health insurance exchanges are set to go into effect at the beginning of next year.

“Congress of course has to pass a law to continue funding government -- lately we’ve been doing that through a funding mechanism called a continuing resolution," Lee said. "If Republicans in both houses simply refuse to vote for any continuing resolution that contains further funding for further enforcement of Obamacare, we can stop it. We can stop the individual mandate from going into effect.”

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/07/22/mike-lee-obamacare_n_3634456.html?utm_hp_ref=politics

nailingit — July 22, 2013 at 9:32 a.m. ( | suggest removal


What nonsense. Once again.

kn_dalai — July 22, 2013 at 9:02 a.m.

You need a hug.

nailingit — July 22, 2013 at 9:39 a.m. ( | suggest removal


I find the conservative world of hucksterism fascinating.

I would find the liberal, or progressive, or left leaning media hucksterism interesting as well. But it doesn't seem to be out there. (I'm not seeing Rachel hawk gold on her show yet, not even a coffee cup! :)

Understanding the mindset that buys into this, can be both simple & complicated. But I try. :)

A good write, providing insight to this strange, lucrative world.

Glenn Beck-Alex Jones-Rush Limbaugh--All get a ray of light on them.

1 of ?

///Secrets of the right: Selling garbage to your fans///

-When conservative celebs peddle awful schwag, their fans pay big bucks. But here's why it's bad for the rest of us-

If the late social critic Eric Hoffer is correct in his often quoted (inaccurately, it turns out) adage that “every great cause begins as a movement, becomes a business, and eventually degenerates into a racket,” then the conservative movement is well onto the third phase of that life cycle.

Last week, preeminent conservative blogger and Fox News contributor Erick Erickson was busted hawking a pricey but dubiously valuable financial advice newsletter to his readers in an ad that turned out to be lifted from a previous ad for the same newsletter sent in the name of Ann Coulter a few years earlier. “I’m happy to support a good friend. Didn’t earn a penny,” he tweeted. Whether you believe that or not may depend on whether you know that his publisher once offered to sell his endorsement, or if you believe, as Alex Pareene has often written, that the conservative movement is, among other things, an elaborate moneymaking venture by which the wealth of the rabid and gullible conservative rank and file is redistributed to already rich celebrities.

The truth is, peddling shady products to your most loyal listeners and readers is the rule, not the exception, and Erickson was just unfortunate enough to have someone notice him, and not the dozen other talkers or news outlets it could have easily been. From miracle health cures, to get-rich-quick schemes, to overpriced precious metals and seed banks, talk radio hosts and conservative news outlets are making a killing by trading their platform and credibility for the hard-earned cash of their unsuspecting listeners.

The most obvious example is gold, the precious metal conservative talkers encouraged their listeners to go all in on during the Great Recession (via the companies that pay them to say that and give them a cut of sales, naturally), but gold has since fallen more than 30 percent from its peak. If you bought when gold was near its high, you could have lost half your nest egg, and analysts say prices could fall another 50 percent. But poor financial advice aside, the real problem came in the particular companies the conservative luminaries ensured their listeners they could trust.

nailingit — July 22, 2013 at 11:07 a.m. ( | suggest removal


Glenn Beck is the most egregious with his partnership with Goldline International, which also enjoys endorsements from Mark Levin and, until recently, Sean Hannity and others. Beck cut tearful promotional videos for the company, hawks them passionately on his radio and TV programs, and even designed a coin for the company this year (it reads “mind your business” on the front).

As it turns out, the company’s business model is built on systemically swindling its mostly elderly clientele by talking or tricking them into buying overpriced coins or just sending them different products than they bought, prosecutors in California alleged, leading the company to settle for $4.5 million in refunds to its customers. A judge instructed the company to foot the bill for a court-appointed monitor, who was supposed to ensure the company stopped its alleged “bait and switch” scam.

Not long after that, the company’s former chief compliance officer came forward to say the company was back up to its old tricks. “Goldline specifically targets vulnerable consumers with sales tactics designed to pressure those consumers into buying products that would often result in the consumer losing over one-third of his or her investment the instant the purchase is made,” she said in a legal complaint filed late last year.

And yet, Beck’s support is undiminished. The company’s banner ad still graces the top of TheBlaze.com and Beck still touts them on air. “Before I started turning you on to Goldline, I wanted to look them in the eye. This is a top notch organization that’s been in business since 1960,” Beck says in an endorsement on the company’s website.

Midas Resources, Alex Jones’ favorite gold company, sponsors his show and happens to own the Genesis Communications Network, which distributes Jones’ broadcasts. And if you buy coins from Midas Resources, you get a free promotional subscription to The International Forecaster, a financial newsletter published by the late Bob Chapman, who happened to be a frequent guest on Jones’ show (until he died last year), where he warned listeners about inherent valuelessness of paper money and how they should purchase gold and silver — from Midas Resources, naturally.

Alex Jones, in fact, has built a tremendously impressive multi-platform media empire that any 21st Century entrepreneur should both study and be envious of. And Jones, like everyone else in the business, gets a cut from almost all the snake oil he sells, on top of all the rest of his revenue streams, thanks to special links on his sites and newsletters that let sellers know whether the click came from.

nailingit — July 22, 2013 at 11:08 a.m. ( | suggest removal


Midas has received complaints from angry consumers online that sound familiar to the charges against Goldline.

Than there’s the email list. Renting out the list of people who sign up to subscribe to your blog or radio show is a tried and true money maker. As David Bernstein explained in the Boston Pheonix, “Such lists of proven conservative contributors — who skew heavily toward white, suburban retirees with disposable income — are attractive not only to other conservative groups, but to companies selling financial services, health products, and other wares.” Bernstein found data (from 2009) on the value to advertisers of individual conservative figures, which range from $85 per 1,000 recipients for an email sent under the name of Mike Huckabee or Pat Buchanan, all the way up to $125 for Newt Gingrich — whose distributor, Townhall.com, is owned by the same parent company as Erickson’s — and $135 for Rush Limbaugh.

“There’s…this vibrant marketplace that’s been built up over the past 30 years, and it can be quite lucrative,” Princeton University professor Julian Zelizer, who studies the conservative movement, told Bernstein.

And what does one sell once they’ve shelled out the money to tap into the network of Newt Gingrich’s or Erick Erickson’s most loyal fans? Rick Perlstein found out when he signed up for the email lists of “several influential magazines” and wrote about it for The Baffler. There was the “hidden money mountain” that could make you “an extra $6,000 every single month” — “All you have to know is the insider’s code (which I’ll tell you).” And the “23-Cent Heart Miracle,” a miracle heart drug that “Washington, the medical industry, and drug companies REFUSE to tell you about.” There was even one asking for a $10,000 investment in a company started by “an Israeli entrepreneur, Zami Aberman, [who] has discovered ‘an oilfield in the placenta.’”

After that, he got another pitch from Human Events with the subject line: “The Trouble with Get-Rich-Quick Schemes.” Perlstein’s hopes were quickly dashed when inside, he found an offer for “INSTANT INTERNET INCOME.” Perlstein reflected on this:

nailingit — July 22, 2013 at 11:08 a.m. ( | suggest removal


Back in our great-grandparents’ day, the peddlers of such miracle cures and get-rich-quick schemes were known as snake-oil salesmen. You don’t see stuff like this much in mainstream culture any more; it hardly seems possible such déclassé effronteries could get anywhere in a society with a high school completion rate of 90 percent. But tenders of a 23-Cent Heart Miracle seem to work just fine on the readers of the magazine where Ann Coulter began her journalistic ascent in the late nineties by pimping the notion that liberals are all gullible rubes.

Glancing at my own inbox, WorldNetDaily, the birther website that regularly lambasts the mainstream media for being too credulous of the White House’s claims, delivers some exciting offers that strain credulity, then break it, kill it, and cremate it. A sampling of subject lines: “2 Minute ‘Cleanse’ Kills Toxic Parasites Living in Your Belly;” “FEMA Hates This… (#1 item to hoard)” — spoiler alert, it’s food; “Faraday Cages are in stock!”; “Diabetic Neuropathy Sufferers… your pain stops today!” And those are just from the past two weeks.

LifeLock, an identity theft prevention service, is one of Rush Limbaugh’s most loyal advertisers and was one of the few that stuck with him after most fled following his attack on Georgetown Law student Sandra Fluke. In a previous life, the company was fined $12 million by the Federal Trade Commission for deceptive business practices.

And it’s not just the big boys. Minor local radio hosts hawk shady financial schemes, scammy debt resolution services, and offers to increase the speed of your computer that are often actually malware. In 2011, the Attorney General of Colorado settled a lawsuit with a radio host/get rich quick schemer who was advertising on Christian and conservative talk radio for $226,414. He had to promise that he won’t advertise his products on air again.

Meanwhile, Rosie Gray at BuzzFeed has reported on a series of pay-for-play deals between conservative bloggers and foreign governments, the latest involving bloggers who “repeated talking points given to them by a proxy group for the Ukrainian government — and at least one writer was paid by a representative of the Ukrainian group.”

nailingit — July 22, 2013 at 11:09 a.m. ( | suggest removal


To be sure, this is not entirely new. The legendary Paul Harvey, whose was recently resurrected to voice an instant-classic Super Bowl ad, was “perhaps the finest huckster ever to roam the airwaves,” as Mike Thomas once wrote for Salon. NPR host Garrison Keillor fondly recalled a dinner over which Harvey pitched him on why Americans should “give large corporations the freedom to do good in the world,” and still found time to “[sell] me a tin of liver pills and a utensil that dices, slices, chops, minces and prunes.”

But it has gotten worse, much worse, with the explosion of new media outlets on the Wild West of the Internet media, and the decline of elites who would view such naked self-promotion as déclassé.

It must also be said that this is not relegated strictly to conservatives — talk radio breads hucksterism. But conservatives, in addition to dominating talk radio, are left with a movement of dwindling size, and increasing paranoia and disposable income. An ever expanding slate of right-wing conferences like CPAC and Faith and Freedom, which offer a similar lineup of speakers every time, underscores a growing pay-for-access culture (see: Glenn Beck and National Review cruises).

Conservative rank and file seem willing to shell out cash to be closer to their stars, no matter what jankity product they happen to be hawking, and the stars are happy in turn to take their money. At some point, maybe they gave up a bit on advancing conservatism to focus instead on advancing themselves as they saw the writing on the wall of a movement circumscribed by demographic and societal change.

Last year, Bill Kristol, one of the last great conservative elites, recalled Hoffer’s classic remark and lamented, “Reading about some conservative organizations and Republican campaigns these days, one is reminded of Eric Hoffer’s remark, ‘Every great cause begins as a movement, becomes a business, and eventually degenerates into a racket.’ It may be that major parts of American conservatism have become such a racket that a kind of refounding of the movement as a cause is necessary.”

The premium for the racketeers is always on the crazy and hyperbolic, because that’s what sells. “The problem,” as Pareene insightfully noted, is that these hucksters “exert massive influence, and they only ever push the Republican Party to get more extreme…[so] you should still worry about the influence of the scammers.” In other words: if you don’t particularly care about conservative activists wasting their money, it may be time to start.

Read more @ http://www.salon.com/2013/07/22/secrets_of_the_right_selling_garbage_to_your_fans/

nailingit — July 22, 2013 at 11:10 a.m. ( | suggest removal


Anachronistically challenged are you? Again.

kn_dalai — July 22, 2013 at 11:40 a.m. ( | suggest removal


kn_dalai — July 22, 2013 at 11:40 a.m.

You're the knd of guy who asks questions, not to learn or provoke understanding, but egotistically believing you already have the answers. In short. To be knd, a brick wall. Your understanding of the world around you seems to come from 17th century writings, rather than life experiences. Perhaps that's what attracts you to folks such as Locke. Not only to provide you with answers to such a complex & changing world around you, but to be a defender of his beliefs. A cause. In doing so, it somehow pardons your lack of 21st century wisdom, as will as adaptability, while validating a 300 year old mindset. I'm sure your age is a factor also.

[[[if you're concerned about $$$, this analysis is free]]]

And that's cool. For you. But so many want so much more from life.

Your attitude speaks much to our dysfunctional political process, as well as related negative aspects of society as a whole. We'd like to think our elected have a better grasp of one's self, but hey...

...they're just like us!

On a positive note, you have posters like me who care, :) and encourage you to take a different path. A responsible and thoughtful one.

BTW- "Anachronistically challenged are you?"

One should understand the meaning of such a .. large word when using it. Then apply context when applying it.

Besides, (Lance?) it's not me who desires this country to return to the 1600's. :)

.....

The time for conservatism is drawing nigh. It's being tossed in the trash heap. And it's about time.

nailingit — July 22, 2013 at 12:32 p.m. ( | suggest removal


"Then apply context when applying it."

Should read ..then 'consider' context when applying it.

Not one to correct minor writing errors (e.g. "But don’t even begin to compare you’re alleged, and wrong suppositions-I had to reread that a time or two!) , I thought I would in order to bring as much clarity to this potentially edifying process I'm gifting you. :)

It's all about what the world needs.

And what the world needs now is love, sweet love.

nailingit — July 22, 2013 at 12:46 p.m. ( | suggest removal



It's nice to see others on the right denouncing the obvious racism the Trayvon situation has brought about in their own party. I've appreciated frobert's take on this whole matter, and his willingness to call out fellow conservatives on this.

Rather taken back by some who think justice was served.

Maybe they never had any kids. Or refuse to equate their own with..a different race. Or lived in our White Washington State bubble forever and a day. Regardless...a few need to step out and embrace diversity a bit more, at least read about it. :( If it was your kid, you wouldn't feel any other way..right?

///Joe Scarborough: Sean Hannity Using Trayvon Martin's Death 'To Gin Up His Ratings' (VIDEO)///

Joe Scarborough railed against Sean Hannity on Monday, accusing the Fox News host over using Trayvon Martin's death to "gin up his ratings."

Hannity reacted to President Obama's speech about Trayvon Martin and race on Friday, asking if the president had compared himself to the teenager because "he was part of the Choom Gang and he smoked pot and he did a little blow."

On Monday, an indignant Scarborough slammed Hannity's response. "It seems we keep hearing that Trayvon had it coming because he had pot in his system," Scarborough said. "I keep hearing this from people like Sean Hannity and others on the right. Really? Would we like to go across college campuses in America and tell all white boys that if they have marijuana in their system then they are fair game?"

"In 2013, Sean, come on," he added later. "Whatever excuse there is to say this young black man had it coming to him, that is the defense because there is no defense for shooting down a young black man in a middle class neighborhood with Skittles."

Scarborough called the case "depressing." Later, he said that even others in the far right media have called Hannity out. "Sean Hannity has been ginning this up so badly that... Michael Savage has been saying that he's been irresponsible and that he's using race to gin up his ratings in a way that's bad for America," Scarborough said. "That's how extreme Sean Hannity's position has been."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/07/22/joe-scarborough-sean-hannity-trayvon-martin_n_3634344.html

nailingit — July 22, 2013 at 1:20 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Waving at nailingit - you just got to know -

kn_dalai is just another verbose internet troll.

soapbox4u — July 22, 2013 at 6:34 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Hi there soapbox. Nice hearing from you too.

When you’re waving to your comrade there, you might mention that today is Monday and last week’s forum ended yesterday. Anachronistically speaking I mean.

kn_dalai — July 22, 2013 at 9:09 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Hey soap! Good to see you and waving back.

I put the cat out on the doorstep and cleaned up. This week the place became rather moldie' and started to smell, so I kndly opened the windows for a cross breeze, as the air was quite stale & old.

Pretty nice in here after everyone leaves.

No conspiracy nuts pushing their latest 'agenda'....

No religious hypocrites hiding from themselves, while persecuting others....

No obnoxious faux Libertarians ranting about matters they fail to understand.....

Think I'll kick it for awhile.....

Nice & quiet....

:)

nailingit — July 23, 2013 at 12:24 a.m. ( | suggest removal


Looks like kn_dalai knows his calendar dates and days. A round of applause for him. Flip side - I will agree with the No No No's you mention above. Kickin' it is a good thing. Ahem, back to the future?

soapbox4u — July 23, 2013 at 6:56 p.m. ( | suggest removal


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