Open forum, June 24-30



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RE: That traitorous act on the part of Monica Stonier. Perhaps I should have used quotes ("traitorous act") to indicate I was being facetious?

Stonier barely edged out Olson; the outcome was in doubt for a couple of days. This was in the same 17th where Madore ran away from Marc Boldt. Stonier has been an ardent supporter of everything related to education, and has also come out in favor of the CRC. One of her campaign issues - one that very likely allowed her to win - was that she was not in favor of raising taxes. The people she talked to when running made it clear we can't afford to be paying any more.

But we all know that once in office you play the Party game - That's just as true here as back in DC. Any time someone goes against their Party position, you have to ask why.

I am very much hoping Stonier took her stand and voted against the House's budget based on her campaign promise. I think I've said before - I voted for her, mainly because she actually listened when we spoke, and she stated her positions in what I considered a straight forward and honest manner. I'd like to think that my vote was vindicated. But at the same time, I look with a cynical eye - Is there another possibility? And the answer to that would be "Yes, there is." Is it just possible she was "given permission" by the House Dem leadership to vote against their budget proposal because 1) They had it wrapped up and didn't need her vote, and 2) Her 'No' vote would play well in the 17th?

That's why I'm waiting to see the outcome of the remainder of the session.

You may also recall that Jaime HB did something similar last year - Voted against the US House Repub position on a couple of votes where the outcome was not in doubt. And the comments in The C made it clear many considered this an act of politics - for reasons similar to those I've asked about Stonier. But with Stonier, the silence has been deafening. And Yes - It does surprise me that those very vocal and opinionated legislators of yours over in the 49th haven't seen fit to comment on her vote.

roger — June 24, 2013 at 6:43 a.m. ( | suggest removal

I just got off the phone with my insurance company. I asked them for an explanation on insuring illegal aliens with state issued drivers licenses. They take the position that if they follow state guidelines concerning issuing policy's then they can insure anyone with a state issued license whether they are legally in the US or not.

I call this BS. The insurance industry as a whole are nothing more than money grubbing whores. They have no concern or morals. I've know this for over 40 years but it seems they have gotten worse. Just look at all the adds on TV and in print. They could refuse insurance to anyone but if you have the money and a state issued drivers license (tier two), for the most part, you're home free.

What's wrong with picture. This can be changed by both the state insurance commission and the insurance company's allowed to operate in the state working together to help illegal aliens do what is right and get legalized before they can operate a motor vehicle in the US. Giving a free pass to drive in the US when you broke the law to get here is wrong.

JohnCasey — June 24, 2013 at 6:52 a.m. ( | suggest removal

JohnCasey: I agree with you that the insurance industry is interested only in making a profit. It it can wiggle out of paying for consumer needs, it will. A good reason to support the Affordable Healthcare Act, in my opinion, is the fact that it will not allow insurance companies to deny access to policies based on pre-existing conditions.

As for your thoughts on undocumented residents of the US (newspapers have instructed reporters not to use "illegal" or "illegals" as a descriptor any longer, FYI), many of these folks keep the economy rolling and contribute to their communities.

Anecdotal story: my grandfather and father-in-law both entered the US as undocumented young people via foreign ships in Seattle and NYC from the countries of Greece and Germany. They both were skilled craftsmen, found jobs, married other immigrants from their home countries, and eventually developed successful small businesses. They became naturalized citizens and produced children and grandchildren who served in the US military and continued their tradition of living a productive, law-abiding life in the "land of the free."

Insurance companies cancel auto insurance on anyone who habitually breaks the driving laws. Equal opportunity denial of benefits there.

Immigration reform is a concept embraced by many Republicans and Democrats, so I am watching what happens in DC on his topic with intense interest.

manthou — June 24, 2013 at 7:31 a.m. ( | suggest removal

JohnCasey: I should add that, on my mother's side, my 10th great grandfather entered this country as a young servant, indentured to a wealthy family from England on a ship that landed in Jamestown. He, too, did enormously well with his talent and opportunities, paid off his servitude and became a successful farmer in Virginia.

I won't bore you with the likes of who came from his "loins", but suffice it to say many of his descendants were and are American patriots of note. :)

I apologize in advance for my passion about the bad rap given to "illegals." Canada could not run its country without its immigrants, it is so vast and its population so scarce in some provinces.

I hope our country does something about immigration reform finally that opens the doors to documentation, rather than shutting them.

manthou — June 24, 2013 at 7:42 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Insurance companies are not in the immigration business.

Does an "international license" still exist? A quick look and I see the answer is, "Yes."

I've some aquaintances who just returned from riding motorcycles in Europe. I'm sure they had the machines insured. I wonder what they used for operators' licenses? After all, they crossed several borders.

Oh, and at least one of the bikes had Washington tags (it was shipped over).

Why would any insurance outfit want to wade through all of that?

Drift — June 24, 2013 at 7:59 a.m. ( | suggest removal

I have a very similar family history. It is a part of our country's history. My family's roots come from religious persecution and freedom of thought. When they got here they still had to deal with discrimination. (Irish need not apply)

My grandson's father went back to Mexico to get in line to come back here legally. He did this because the Hispanic community back then looked down on their own kind who came here without going through the hoops. That has changed since Reagan declared amnesty.

I applaud your grandfather and father-in-law. I suspect that they also learned English as soon as possible. Did they hide out while they got legal? Back then there wasn't a lot of programs out there to help with just living in our country.

Those here who read my posts know I'm not very PC. You can put lipstick on a pig but at the end of the day it's still a pig. Illegal is still illegal. Changing descriptive words doesn't change that fact. I know a lot of those who are here without appropriate documentation are here for a better life. They risked their lives and paid lowlifes exorbitant fees to be smuggled in to the US. That takes guts. But they had to know that by breaking our immigration policy they would be subject to closer scrutiny somewhere down the road.

The main reason our laws are set to change for 'undocumented residents' is that as a nation we turned a blind eye to the flood of them after amnesty. We failed to follow through with our own laws. Now we are in an unenviable position. Yes it would be inhumane to break up families to send them back as our laws now exist. But I rail against another blanket amnesty that some rights groups want. That attitude is too cavalier for most people.

JohnCasey — June 24, 2013 at 8:15 a.m. ( | suggest removal

On my maternal side we date back a bit further. (think Quakers and Friends) They weren't to popular in England.

Drift, I wonder if Mexico has an international drivers license? My point about licensing in general was prompted by the article in today's C. If the insurance company's provide insurance to illegals they run their own risks. If they get into an accident then run we all pay. All any insurance company has to do is follow state insurance commission laws. When I got insurance they ran my drivers license to see if I was high risk. (I'm not) We all know if you have a brand new license then you will pay higher premiums. Just like if you live in high risk zip codes or you credit sucks.

You pointed out that your friends had insurance and being a visitor to various countries in Europe they had to have some documentation that said they were there legally. Passports? So right away they broke no laws in those countries. I do hope they had a great time over there and they probably have stories and pictures to show for it.

JohnCasey — June 24, 2013 at 8:56 a.m. ( | suggest removal

I appreciate your perspective on the immigration issue, John. I do think there are many, many good people who feel that way.

Our country's resources are dwindling and it feels like there is not a lot to go around for everyone.

A complicated problem with no easy solution. I believe we need to listen to all ideas and try to find the ones that might have the best chance for a positive impact.

manthou — June 24, 2013 at 8:57 a.m. ( | suggest removal

The infamous Benton-Rivers "hug."

Just want to say this: this was a staged photo op. Ann took one for the team for sure, to reassure everyone in the room and beyond: We will work together for you.

I would love to have heard what she really felt about this creepy opportunist pulling her so close to his chest. Notice how her feet are firmly planted at a respectable distance away from his and she is leaning in at an angle, as if pulled. Manipulative and aggressive on his part, if so. The guy exudes creep from my internal, gut-reaction radar.

A demure side hug would have done the same thing: we are burying the hatchet for the good of the order. A true gentleman would have realized this.

Donnie B cannot change his stripes. And better yet, he is on the Columbian's radar like never before and should be, no matter how many staged photo ops he produces for the public.

manthou — June 24, 2013 at 9:09 a.m. ( | suggest removal


In case you missed this follow up last night ---

Thank you for continuing to keep up with ALEC and religious right, Ralph Reed, etc. I think it's important to know about Wisconsin and what happened there. Should be a caution to us in Clark County. Didn't Reed take credit for the recall election going in the right wing's favor? One of his first efforts under Faith and Freedom Coalition banner.

Madore hasn't been through budget process and contract negotiations yet. Right? Can't keep his social agenda under wraps much longer.

Madore and his evangelical & uninformed supporters are trained to not overlook the bottom of the ballot like a lot of Dems and Independents did last time. GOTV efforts and training need to be starting now.

langenthal — June 24, 2013 at 11:49 a.m. ( | suggest removal

manthou — June 24, 2013 at 9:09 a.m.

I know that guy creeps you out, hell, he even creeps ME out. Ann must have known this was going to happen, I'm sure it was all a setup. I feel sorry for her that she had to be that close to the perv du jour, I also feel sorry for ANY County employees that have to work for this scumbag. Oh wait, has he even shown up for work in the County yet?

Now, will someone give me their input on this whole Paula Deen thing? The Food Network AND Smithfield Ham people have fired her for using the "N" word over 30 years ago? I'd lay you odds that both Bushes did too.

hawkeye — June 24, 2013 at 1:14 p.m. ( | suggest removal

hawkeye @ 1:14 PM: Paula Deen was under oath in a deposition when she disclosed that long-ago indiscretion.

I would not want to be grilled under oath for some of the stupid things I did in my younger years.

Someone said that she ought to be keel-hauled for promoting her unhealthy recipes instead.

manthou — June 24, 2013 at 2:12 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Hawkeye I was born and raised here in Vancouver.At that time back in the 50s and 60s we didn't have as diverse a population as we have now.I graduated from Hudsons Bay in 1967 and we had around 20 or so kids of color.Most of those were black.We had a few that were Japanese.We didn't really think to much about it.We all seemed to get along ok.I never saw any real prejudice until I went in the service.But I would still not want some of the things I said or did brought up from 30 years ago.Paula Deen was brought up in the south I believe.And that was their way of life.People can change one way or the other.

timerick — June 24, 2013 at 3:06 p.m. ( | suggest removal

hawkeye — June 24, 2013 at 1:14 p.m

Not sure what's going on with Paula Dean now, but suspect this is one way to break contracts... at least in part. Since she came out, or was found out, about hiding her diabeties for two years while telling her show watchers to cook with loads of butter, perhaps her show's success fell off. Added to her weight loss since the 'leak' about her health, it could perhaps reflect on the show's success. Pure guessing, actually.

Then again, I read Smithfield Ham is a huge GOP contributor... maybe she crossed the wrong person with her outspoken ways. s/

jacjak — June 24, 2013 at 5:17 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Paula Dean was very impressed with the elderly black gentlemen who so professionally waited on her. She drew a comparison to the time around the Civil War. This is the same as the reasoning usually given in public by those who like to wear/exhibit the Confederate battle flag - That it represents the idealism of that age when men were gentlemen and protected the honor of their women.

Those "gentlemen" had to keep the whip ready, in case some colored boy had the temerity to look at a white woman. Paula - She was thinking about being waited on by the House N's.

I spent my early years in the South, and most of my family still lives there. Paula Dean is not an aberration - many still hold those beliefs. Virginia (surprising to me) is among the worst.

A counter argument often used, and valid, is that in the North we forced the Blacks (and other minorities, to include the Irish, Italians and Jews) to live in their own areas. Nowadays we want the Mexicans, the Ricans and the Haitians to live in their own little barrios.

But at least Paula Dean admitted to her prejudice. How many of those attacking her are still in denial?

roger — June 24, 2013 at 5:32 p.m. ( | suggest removal

I was born and raised in the Sellwood area of Portland. We had never seen any "black" people until the school district started busing them in from North Portland. I was in 7th grade and there were three kids in my class from another school. One of the new kids and I became good friends, to this day. He lives in California now, but I don't hold that against him. Then I went to High School, Benson. Now that was an education.

hawkeye — June 24, 2013 at 7:13 p.m. ( | suggest removal

By the way, a few years ago we bought a Smithfield ham because it had such a great rep. It was horrible and really expensive. Costco hams are so much better.

hawkeye — June 24, 2013 at 7:17 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Did I call it or did I call it?

[link text][1]


hawkeye — June 24, 2013 at 7:19 p.m. ( | suggest removal

hawkeye: You called it.

We're gonna be hearing so much more....

manthou — June 24, 2013 at 8:21 p.m. ( | suggest removal

I was reading the Zimmerman trial coverage and I had a couple of thoughts.

I am a conservative and a ardent supporter of the Second amendment, but if the day ever came that I was so afraid of an unarmed child that I felt I had to shoot them, I would give up my guns because I was not "man" enough to own them.

Maybe one of Zimmerman's many supporters should donate one of their testicles, because he could sure use one.

frobert — June 24, 2013 at 10:32 p.m. ( | suggest removal

> I would love to have heard what she really felt about this creepy opportunist pulling her so close to his chest. Notice how her feet are firmly planted at a respectable distance away from his and she is leaning in at an angle, as if pulled. -- manthou — June 24, 2013 at 9:09 a.m.

What photo was that manthou?

kn_dalai — June 24, 2013 at 11:31 p.m. ( | suggest removal

I'm thinking this could be an issue that escalates and leads to a backlash against the sexual orientation rights movement.

A 6 year old child in Colorado Springs, though physically male, has apparently always identified as female. (He was born a triplet with two sisters - perhaps various experiences while very young led to this image of self?) Coy (child's name) dresses like a girl, and has rebelled against the school wanting to group him with the boys. The usual transgender issue - which bathroom to use - has come up. To avoid hassles, the school wants Coy to use the restroom in the teachers lounge or the nurse's office. This isn't acceptable; the Colorado Civil Rights Division says Coy must be allowed to use the girls restroom.

Now, the Colorado Springs I remember from 20 years ago was/is fairly liberal, but I suspect this is an issue that will test the tolerance of many parents - especially when Coy gets a few years older. And if this goes where I think, do the other parents have a right to say this decision isn't acceptable?

Is there a larger societal problem that needs to be faced - One where parents are allowing children to have too much control? In this case - OK, playing with girls, etc, is one thing - Being a girl is entirely different. Oughtn't the parents have said something along the lines of "I'm sorry, but you were born a boy"?

roger — June 25, 2013 at 6:30 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Could someone please post (again) the Link Text instructions? Thanks.

roger — June 25, 2013 at 6:34 a.m. ( | suggest removal

kn_dalai: Thanks for asking for clarification. The photo to which I refer was posted by Lew Waters on his blog. Lower right.

[link text][1]


Ann appears to be pulled in at an angle toward Benton, almost making a human right triangle. :)

At my job, any rare hugs exchanged between colleagues were always quick side hugs: Friendly, but no chance of being misconstrued as a chance to cop a chest-to-chest squeeze.

Many women are familiar with how uncomfortable it is to be the recipient of an over-intimate hug like the one that Ann Rivers appears (smile aside) to be the recipient of. I will admit in advance of your next comment that my disrespect and distrust of Benton may have colored my interpretation of the now infamous Benton-Rivers "reconciliation."

There is a greater chance, however, that I am right on this one. Only Ann can speak to this and would not, I suspect, unless he continues to cop these hug-feels every chance he gets.

Women who are the recipient of such hugs from professional colleagues usually feel violated. It is opportunistic and an act of aggression.

Regardless, the photos were a mini PR campaign and, if they help get us a state and transportation budget before July 1, then I am going to send some flowers to Ms. Rivers for taking one for the team.

I am not kidding. :)

manthou — June 25, 2013 at 6:52 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Roger, just copy and paste your link into the box that appears when you hit the work "link". That's how I did it.

Now on the Benton front, I just read all the comments and only two actually kind of supported Benton out of 40. One was Robert Stevens that went after a Kennedy (because that was relevant), and the other was Dennis Henry, who never met a Republican he wasn't in love with. Funny how Lew Waters is absent in all of this.

hawkeye — June 25, 2013 at 6:53 a.m. ( | suggest removal

roger: Here is what you do to link text:

Highlight the text or web address you want to share.

Place your cursor at the place in your post you want it to be.

Go up to the menu above and choose: Link

A window will appear. Cut and paste the text or web address to the box at the bottom that has "http://" in front of it. I usually erase that before I cut and paste, but you don't need to.

Try it and see if it works for you.

manthou — June 25, 2013 at 6:55 a.m. ( | suggest removal

roger: I have worked with transgender youth in schools. The medical and psychological communities recognize the legitimacy of this "girl in a boy's body" or vice-versa, and research shows it is not something that can be forced away or ignored away. Great harm can be inflicted if this happens.

OHSU has a nationally-respected clinic to provide hormonal and, if chosen, medical interventions in a compassionate and nonjudgmental atmosphere to young persons and adults.

Our state, like many others, has specific laws that protect transgender rights:

[link text][1]


manthou — June 25, 2013 at 7:09 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Thanks for the instructions!!!

Manthou - It appears what the Colorado Springs school tried to do to accommodate Coy's gender identification is consistent with pp 6-7 in the WA State ACLU pamphlet. The CO Civil Rights office is pushing this a step further by saying Coy should use the girls' restroom if he chooses.

Did your school allow unrestricted access to the restroom of choice, or go with the "reasonable accommodation" route? If the former, did parents complain?

As the pamphlet notes, law remains unclear over matters such as use of a restroom. To avoid hassles, many businesses are going to uni-sex restrooms. This isn't always an option, however, when there is a large enough population that needs to be served. And at that point the needs of the other people need to be considered as well.

There was that WSU Vanc experiment a while back. They opened a restroom to both genders, but maintained separate male and female ones as well. That may be an appropriate solution for adults who can make their own choices, but are parents going to be willing to allow the same for their children?

The OHSU treatment is a step toward actual gender change. That solution may be best for all involved - but we aren't there yet.

roger — June 25, 2013 at 8:41 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Liz Pike is getting ripped in The C for her facebook post about teachers.

[link text][1]


One could argue that teachers are a lot better off (pay) today, than when I was a kid and the avaerage factory worker was better paid. But then, teachers in my day would have been clueless as to how to handle the transgender issue. Back then, if there was any sort of problem whatsoever, send the kid to the principal's office and maybe home until resolved. Nowadays, teachers have to do a hell of a lot more than just teach.

roger — June 25, 2013 at 9:03 a.m. ( | suggest removal

roger: The transgender youth at my public schools always used the restroom of their preferred identified gender or were given a private restroom: their choice.

No student or parent complaints in my experience. The administration was ready for them, however, armed with the non-discriminatory laws of Washington state.

OHSU provides psychological, surgical and hormonal treatment and youth 13-18 received the hormonal treatment, if they so desired. Some over 18 began the gender reassignment process, which is long.

I never had a parent of a transgender youth be anything but accepting and loving of their child. I know this is not always the case, unfortunately. Our staff members were as well. Those who might not be went way underground for good reason.

Revealing who is transgender without their express permission was considered a violation of HIPAA and confidentiality in our schools. It would be a very serious infraction and teachers could face discipline and dismissal if they did so.

manthou — June 25, 2013 at 9:27 a.m. ( | suggest removal

manthou — June 24, 2013 at 9:09 a.m. and manthou — June 25, 2013 at 6:52 a.m.

OK. Now since you’ve parced that photo, all Sherlock Holmes like, I’ll give it a try myself.

I must disagree with your statement that her feet are firmly planted. It is Benton’s feet which are aligned side-by-side and firmly planted. You will note that Rivers has her left foot in front of the right. Let’s look at the physics of the thing. If one is going to physically reach out to another, standing say a foot or two away, then one must first take a small step forward, lest their center of gravity become top heavy, falling into the other person and causing them both to come crashing to the floor, like a couple of dominoes.- ! Then, if that forward stepping person is going to pull someone towards themselves, they would need to use that forward foot as a fulcrum of sorts, in which to push off against. Now I ask you; just who is it that has one foot in front of the other? Hmmmm?

There are three photos on Lew’s blog, and two more on the Columbian blog that Lew linked to. One will note that some are taken in the foyer, while others are taken in the auditorium. Obviously, this is more than a one time occurrence in which Rivers had to hold her nose. In fact, this has all the appearance of a mutual admiration coterie, if not a downright love fest!

And here’s something else. Have you ever tried to smile at someone you really hate? It’s just not possible, unless one is a very good actor. Now I ask you, does Ann’s smile look disingenuous. All forced and contorted like? And if it is, disingenuous I mean, then Democrats can accuse her of being a “phony who cannot be trusted so you people had bettor vote for a good Democrat next time!”


Of course the thing is a photo op. So what. The incident has been blown out of proportion by Republican bashers, and Benton haters in particular, and the involved parties are doing some damage control. BTW, take a look at Lew’s, yesterday, critique of Cheryl Pflug, and the Columbian’s story on her Benton hypocrisy statement. I do suggest manthou, and others, that despite your disdain for Lew, he brings a side of the story that you won’t find in the Columbian or elsewere, and makes a good case for slanted coverage at the C.

kn_dalai — June 25, 2013 at 9:37 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Wow. Since when does a new forum appear every week?

Oh yeah. Damn it! I've been looking at last weeks forum thinking I dropped an unintended fart bomb that turned solid. I almost called Roto-Tooter

Langenthal- Good to see you post. Ralph Reed is like a cancer coming out of remission.

I'm reeling from the Supreme Court's decision to roll back voting rights 50 years. A sad day for Democracy, as our wonderful SCOTUS (5-4 along conservative lines) gutted the Voting Rights Act today.

Again, I believe term limits for Justices would go a long way in fixing this RW bias SC.

Something needs to be done.

nailingit — June 25, 2013 at 9:44 a.m. ( | suggest removal

We have something as bizarre as it is rare in the basement. A Benton supporter!!!

*he brings a side of the story that you won’t find in the Columbian or elsewere*

Because most would get sued! Bigotry abounds on this joke of a blog that few pay attention to. It's a pat on the back to those who loathe progress and embrace bigotry.

Do you post as "Jack"?

nailingit — June 25, 2013 at 10:01 a.m. ( | suggest removal

kn_dalai: For sure I am absolutely transparent as glass about my unabashed bias against Benton. Every time I see a picture of him, my gut churns and I want to run the other way.

I succumb to confirmatory bias as we all do and the hug just might be warm, fuzzy and real as the Pacific NW rainfall.

In the end, that is Ann Rivers' battle to fight and cross to bear.

Just hope it produces a budget before July 1. That is all I really care about now. :)

manthou — June 25, 2013 at 10:16 a.m. ( | suggest removal

kn_dalai:I like to think of myself as a middle of the road type.I vote both sides of isle.I also have been around Benton a few times and heard him speak at few fund raisers for Rocky Mountain Elk foundation as well as the local NRA dinners.In my opinion the man has no class.On the other hand the Columbian is so biased in their coverage of our political parties it is not even funny.I went over and looked at Lews blog also.I remember nothing printed here locally about Cheryl Pflug.Also I question why the Columbian put on the back pages the coverage of the kiss and make up of Benton and Rivers.This paper should be fair in all coverage of both sides.But I don't see that happening.Both parties disgust me most of the time.I put Moeller in pretty much the same class as Benton.

timerick — June 25, 2013 at 10:37 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Not if I can help it.

kn_dalai — June 25, 2013 at 12:02 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Kn, "Lew, he brings a side of the story that you won’t find in the Columbian or elsewere, and makes a good case for slanted coverage at the C."

Seriously? Thanks for the laugh. Trying to say Lew isn't slanted is like trying to convince the weather man it's not going to rain ----ever. I know, I know, Lew isn't slanted, that because 90 degrees isn't a "slant", it's a wall.

Of course I'm not saying the "C" isn't always middle of the road but I don't know how anybody can misinterpret a gap toothed creep shouting "F*** YOU, F*** YOU" in your face.

hawkeye — June 25, 2013 at 1:22 p.m. ( | suggest removal

holycrapola — June 25, 2013 at 12:26 p.m. and holycrapola — June 25, 2013 at 12:28 p.m.

Well I’ll tell you HC, I was about to give you a little credit for being a good sport, but then made the mistake of going to your link. Whoa. Unquestionably the most foul mouthed link ever posted in the forum. Or as the new Twinkies say: “In the History of Ever”. I’ll give it an 8 for beat, but only a two for good dance music.

(And I’m not sure, but I think I was just insulted.) :-(

But then again, considering the source :-)

kn_dalai — June 25, 2013 at 6:59 p.m. ( | suggest removal

holycrapola — June 25, 2013 at 5:14 p.m.

Hummmm, Bull Crapola, related?

hawkeye — June 25, 2013 at 7:39 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Never heard of the Oregon Country Fair, Chief. Nor do I care. But considering its location and time frame origins, Ken Kesey came to mind. Yep, Wiki confirmed a little of that thought. That crazy capitalist Kesey, with all his books and movie deals, sure knew how to inspire the anti-Capitalist commune types.

kn_dalai — June 25, 2013 at 8:07 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Timerick - You're mistaken - Your posts still show on The C. You haven't been banished as you thought may be the case. There's a lot of stuff disappearing lately. It's supposed to be tied to something new about facebook. And that comment to Mike Y was one of the more polite ones he's gotten, if you ask me.

roger — June 25, 2013 at 8:57 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Another communal living video - this time celebrating the rate race.

[link text][1]


roger — June 25, 2013 at 9:10 p.m. ( | suggest removal

A good sign. A great win. More to come.

[link text][1]


nailingit — June 25, 2013 at 11:04 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Nails - A foregone conclusion. The RNC didn't bother wasting any money on that race; they just sort of hoped Gomez would beat Markey. And after Scott Brown, the Dems have learned to take nothing for granted.

The Cook Political Report predicts the Repubs will maintain control of the House and the Dems of the Senate in the upcoming elections - No change in sight.

[link text][1]


roger — June 26, 2013 at 5:17 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Thanks Roger.I don't know what happened with the post.It was there and then gone and then came back.I have noticed that some comments do not come up when you click on them.Face Book ?

timerick — June 26, 2013 at 7:35 a.m. ( | suggest removal

lounews: You skipped the session on public editors? Was hoping for your tweets on that.

The Columbian's public editor is Lew Waters. :~/ Why not hire a real one instead? :)

manthou — June 26, 2013 at 8:01 a.m. ( | suggest removal

roger-Thanks for your insight. :)

I suppose it boils down to what one's vision is, and how far into the future one looks at our political spectrum.

As I've stated before, it could take the better part of a decade to get the House back.

nailingit — June 26, 2013 at 9:23 a.m. ( | suggest removal

holycrapola — June 26, 2013 at 9:17 a.m.

Gay marriage is a significant step towards marriage equality, but it is not equality. Until we get the Government out of marriage completely we will not have equality. Who marries whom or how many is none of the Governments business. Picking and choosing who gets the privilege of being "equal" is far from equality.

frobert — June 26, 2013 at 10:22 a.m. ( | suggest removal

David A seems to have a big enough brain, but repeatedly fails to do any research before making ridiculous comments.

Some of the others and their personal vitriol is...just sad.

[link text][1]

Face Book Sucks!

[Let’s take a moment to remember what’s at stake here. Texas Democrats succeeded in blocking a lot of abortion restrictions until Gov. Rick Perry called a special session to push them through. SB 5 offers a revolting menu of bad policy for women: a 20-week abortion ban; new TRAP laws requiring abortion clinics to be certified as “ambulatory surgery centers,” which would close all but five of the 42 clinics open today, along with every clinic in West Texas. It would also require clinic doctors to have admitting privileges at hospitals and restrict the abortion drug RU-486. Opponents tried to block the bill’s passage in the House last Thursday with a “people’s filibuster,” but it ultimately passed.

I tuned in to Davis’ Senate filibuster after she’d been going about 10 hours Tuesday night, and I felt like I’d discovered a baseball game that was a no-hitter going into the ninth inning. On YouTube, almost 40,000 people were already watching; that ballooned to more than 150,000 after Dewhurst stopped Davis’ crusade on bogus procedural grounds. It was gripping.


For at least an hour, it was great theater. State parliamentarian Karina Davis spent a lot of time looking like gymnast McKayla Maroney, whispering sideways into Dewhurst’s ear and seeming not terribly impressed. Pro-choice state Sen. Leticia Van De Putte’s had just returned from her father’s funeral and repeatedly asked Dewhurst to walk her through his procedural rulings, but brought down the house when she asked: “At what point must a female senator raise her hand or voice to be recognized over her male colleagues in the room?”

Soon after, the gallery erupted, and no one could restore order for almost 10 minutes. Midnight came and went with the crowd screaming, but at some point it seemed the roll was called and the bill passed, albeit after midnight. The Dallas Morning News’ Wayne Slater tweeted: “Rules out the window; TX Senate taking vote in a scrum at front of chamber, post midnight, to salvage abortion bill.” Democratic Sen. Royce West told the Austin Statesman’s Mike Ward (reported via Twitter): “The vote on SB5 is void. The constitutionality will be challenged. We weren’t in session.”]

[link text][2]


nailingit — June 26, 2013 at 10:42 a.m. ( | suggest removal

[link text][1]


nailingit — June 26, 2013 at 11:23 a.m. ( | suggest removal

manthou — June 26, 2013 at 8:01 a.m.

OK, Just what did I miss?

hawkeye — June 26, 2013 at 2:56 p.m. ( | suggest removal

[link text][1]

I watched the meeting this morning on the CVTV. I've dropped these guys a line before, without any material response, but what the heck, I thought maybe... I dunno.

Maybe I'm wasting my time?
It's mine to do with as I please, I guess.
So, I sent the following:

Good day, gentleman.
As the subject line indicates I would like to offer my opinion on the County’s handling of the Cannabis Collective Garden “issue.” This, I offer after viewing Tuesday morning’s meeting.

Mr. Mielke: The subject was relative to gardens, not bargaining. Unless, of course, you consider whatever option the Commission takes as “bargaining” with the medicinal cannabis community.

Mr. Madore: I find your statements about cannabis being a “gateway drug” and your question regarding the “message sent to the children” when a municipality bows to sick and disabled people supporting one another quite disingenuous. Hopefully, you make such statements due simply to ignorance.

You see, sir, that whole gateway thing has been thoroughly debunked by research studies. I would advise you, when you make such statements, you give the appearance of being uneducated in the matter. One would think an individual in your position would take the time to do just a bit of research. It’s not too late. I recommend you start today.

The message to the children? Well, I believe the message we are currently sending is we are liars and prefer to maintain the status quo rather than actually doing anything about adolescent drug abuse. Reliable, accurate education is the tool to minimize adolescent drug abuse. Not that whole “forbidden fruit” thing that’s been perpetrated since the 1940s. Trying to scare a kid into submission doesn’t work. For evidence to that simply look around you. While looking, look at adolescent cigarette smoking. That decline is a result of honest education.

Please sir, serve your constituents and do your homework.

Mr. Stuart is on the right track with differentiating a commercial enterprise masquerading as a patient collect between true combined efforts on the part of several “patients” attempting to support one another.

I’d recommend you, Mr. Mielke and Mr. Madore, follow his lead on this. It is the right path. Commercial enterprises will be either banned or zoned into nonexistence while true patients will be able to help each other without fear of violating local ordinances.

Compassion, Mr. Madore, shall we send that message to the children?

Thanks for your time, guys,

(quote ends)

Should one'a y'all care to watch the show you can find it here:

[link text][2]


Drift — June 26, 2013 at 4:19 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Way to go Monica Stonier!!! She voted against the State House's Transportation package because of the 10.5 cents per gallon tax - She promised the voters of the 17th she would oppose raising taxes, and she stuck to it.

roger — June 26, 2013 at 4:41 p.m. ( | suggest removal

roger — June 26, 2013 at 4:41 p.m

And she's a Democrat! See Frobert, we aren't ALL bad.

Actually, my idea was to raise the sales tax .01%. After all, everybody benefits from better roads.

hawkeye — June 26, 2013 at 4:56 p.m. ( | suggest removal

I see my first link (@4:19 p.m.) didn't take. Rather than make another attempt I'll simply point you to today's Columbo article titled *Clark County seems to be leaning against marijuana gardens*

Sorry for any inconvenience.

BTW, the title is a bit misleading. It should read, *Clark County isn't really sure what the heck a "collective garden" is.*

Drift — June 26, 2013 at 5:30 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Clark County needs to read State Law in regard to what non-commercial, private, unlicensed, patient collective garden MAY do under State Law:
Collective gardens.

(1) Qualifying patients may create and participate in collective gardens for the purpose of producing, processing, transporting, and delivering cannabis for medical use subject to the following conditions:

(a) No more than ten qualifying patients may participate in a single collective garden at any time;

(b) A collective garden may contain no more than fifteen plants per patient up to a total of forty-five plants;

(c) A collective garden may contain no more than twenty-four ounces of useable cannabis per patient up to a total of seventy-two ounces of useable cannabis;

(d) A copy of each qualifying patient's valid documentation or proof of registration with the registry established in *section 901 of this act, including a copy of the patient's proof of identity, must be available at all times on the premises of the collective garden; and

(e) No useable cannabis from the collective garden is delivered to anyone other than one of the qualifying patients participating in the collective garden.

(2) For purposes of this section, the creation of a "collective garden" means qualifying patients sharing responsibility for acquiring and supplying the resources required to produce and process cannabis for medical use such as, for example, a location for a collective garden; equipment, supplies, and labor necessary to plant, grow, and harvest cannabis; cannabis plants, seeds, and cuttings; and equipment, supplies, and labor necessary for proper construction, plumbing, wiring, and ventilation of a garden of cannabis plants.

(3) A person who knowingly violates a provision of subsection (1) of this section is not entitled to the protections of this chapter.

[2011 c 181 § 403.]

david98686 — June 27, 2013 at 5:45 a.m. ( | suggest removal

This County ban was pre-Madore, and (as I recall) was put in place after the WA state law was enacted allowing collective gardens. Gov Gregoire passed the buck by making it a county decision as to allowing them and where, etc. Followed shortly by a letter from the federal level noting they still consider growing illegal. The County's decision (which I think Stuart was quoted on by The C) was based on not wanting to leave them open to prosecution if the Feds elected to take action.

States shouldn't pass wishy washy laws - If we're going to approve of collective gardens (for medical or otherwise), then the state law needs to clearly define what's allowable. (Something I think they came closer to with the money making recreational gardens.) And then the State Court needs to take on the Feds.

All they're accomplishing with the current approach is to reinforce the illegal market, which is thriving in this area. I had no problem finding it when my wife was going through chemo and the five different prescription anti-nausea drugs we got proved worthless.

I didn't watch the video, but if Madore is repeating the old "gateway drug" argument then he is clueless. I smoked plenty of weed in my younger days - enough that it took CCF over two years to finally grant my Top Secret clearance. And I was never been tempted to use heroin or sell state secrets to the bad guys.

roger — June 27, 2013 at 6:51 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Let's not confuse recreational use, medicinal use and commercial sales.

Medicinal and recreational use are two different animals. The topical I use and the capsules I take do not induce a psychoactive effect. I smoke an average of 1/2 a joint a day. Obviously, my intention there isn't to get "wasted."

This whole "commercial sales" is what has the City and County all in a tizzy. Frankly, if I were on the outside looking in I'd find the hysteria hysterical. It's all ado about nothing. Mountains and mole hills...

Gregoire vetoed 36 sections of a bill (5073) that would have legalized and regulated medicinal sales in this state. Due to that veto those sales are *not* legal. Period. End of statement. I don't care what King County allows.

Previously, certain entrepreneurs had used a loop hole in the designated provider provision to sell medicinal cannabis. The law previously stated a designated provider can have only one patient at any one time. Shop owners claimed "at any one time" could be as short as several minutes.

That loop hole was closed. The law now reads within any 15 day period.

I tell you this for background.

Section 403 ((of 5073) collective gardens) remained intact. It was codified as RCW 69.51.085. As Dave copied above paragraph (a) reads: ten patients...single any time.

So here we go again?

The answer is simple: No.

The intention of the legislature was quite clear. All of the provisions providing for sales were vetoed. The whole scheme got whacked by the red pen. Collective gardens were *not* part of the effort put forth by the law makers toward that end.

Currently cannabis availability to qualifying patients is by three avenues; grow it themselves, have another grow for them or enjoin with up to 10 other people, pulling together resources and skills, to provide and disperse the material between them.

No "stores." No commercial sales. Zip. Nada.

A cannabis collective garden should be under the radar just as patient grows and patient/provider relationships are. Should some yuk-yuk decide to engage in sales under the guise of a collective that illegal activity would obviously fall under the authority of law enforcement and the court system.

The City has passed zoning ordinances that are basically a back door ban on gardens. The requirements are not practical for an activity not engaged in the making of profits. In the legal world this is called an ultra vires act. They have no authority to do what they've done.

Hopefully the County will split the hair. They will wholly ignore a true collective while banning (by whatever means) a commercial enterprise masqurading as a one. The latter action, by the way, being a bit moot because commercial sales (of medicinal cannabis) aren't legal in the first place.

Does this clear things up a tad?

Drift — June 27, 2013 at 7:56 a.m. ( | suggest removal

"This County ban was pre-Madore, and (as I recall) was put in place after the WA state law was enacted allowing collective gardens. Gov Gregoire passed the buck by making it a county decision as to allowing them and where, etc."

Actually, this isn't correct, Roger. It is this interpretation that has created further confusion.

The section of law allowing municipalities to regulate sales was section 1102 (of 5073) codified as 69.51a.140. If one takes the time to read that paragraph it becomes obvious it speaks to those provisions of 5073 allowing and regulating commercial dispensaries.

Take a look at it: [link text][1]

You'll see the words, "business licensing requirements, business taxes, licensed dispensers, health and safety requirements..." Obviously, this applies to the business of medicinal cannabis dispensing.

Further, in the Governors veto explanation she states:

Section 1102 sets forth local governments' authority pertaining to the production, processing or dispensing of cannabis or cannabis products within their jurisdictions. The provisions in Section 1102 that local governments' zoning requirements cannot "preclude the possibility of siting licensed dispensers within the jurisdiction" *are without meaning in light of the vetoes of sections providing for such licensed dispensers.* It is with this understanding that I approve Section 1102.

(italics by me)

So you see, .140 is actually "orphaned law." It speaks to the sections of 5073 that were vetoed!

Unfortunately, Washington State municipalities appear to have an issue with reading comprehension. This City and County lean heavily on .140 as their sole source of authority in the matter.

Also, unfortunately, most of us "patients" haven't two nickels to rub together or we'd have a case in an appeals court by now. I sure hope the plaintifs in the Kent case prevail.

Drift — June 27, 2013 at 8:44 a.m. ( | suggest removal

*Rec use, Medicinal use, and Dietary needs.*

*PorkChops & Applesauce, ain't that swell!*

**Marijuana-Fed Pigs Make 'Best Pork Chop You've Ever Had'**

SNOHOMISH, Wash. -- The white van with tinted windows pulled up to the driveway with its cargo - cardboard boxes full of marijuana. And the customers eagerly awaited it, grunting and snorting.

The deal was going down for three hungry Berkshire pigs from a Washington state farm, and a German television crew was there to film it.

Part flavor experiment, part green recycling, part promotion and bolstered by the legalization of recreational marijuana in Washington state, pot excess has been fed to the hogs by their owners, pig farmer Jeremy Gross and Seattle butcher William von Schneidau, since earlier this year.

Gross and von Schneidau now sell their "pot pig" cuts at von Schneidau's butcher shop in Seattle's Pike Place Market at a premium price – bacon is $17 a pound while chops go for $16.90 a pound.

"He's like `let's see what kind of flavor it gives it.' So we ran it and it gave good flavor," Gross said. "It's like anything else, what you feed them is what they're going to taste like. It's almost like a savory alfalfa fed cow or alfalfa fed pig."

The meat, though, won't get people high.

It's just a flavor infusion.

While the passage of recreational marijuana inspired the experiment, Gross and von Schneidau get the marijuana excess – roots, stems, and other part of the plant that are grinded and not used for consumption – from a medical marijuana dispensary. At the butcher shop, cuts from the pot pigs are signed with a little drawing of a marijuana leaf stuck on them with a toothpick.

"It tastes like the best pork chop you've ever had," said Matt McAlman, who runs Top Shelf Organic, the dispensary that is providing the pot plant waste for the pigs to eat.

nailingit — June 27, 2013 at 8:47 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Drift: I think that's about all there is to say about that...

david98686 — June 27, 2013 at 9:07 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Fish consumption rate: a fantastic clarification by Chris Wilke, Exec Director of Puget Sound Keepers dot org (published on Crosscut this morning) :

*The Fish Consumption rate is applied to set water quality standards, as required by the Clean Water Act. These standards must be protective of human health for high fish consumers, not just the general population. Numerous studies have been done and the results are in: certain populations in Washington State eat a lot of locally caught fish, and our current consumption standard of 6.5 grams per day is inadequate to protect human health (Oregon's standard is 175 grams per day). Ecology and the EPA want to move forward with revising this rate by early 2014 as required by the Clean Water Act- a process that is long overdue.

Senate Republicans and industry (primarily Boeing it seems) want to further delay this process by calling for another study - it seems they just don't like the results of the science up to this point. In the meantime they are threatening a government shut down over the right to keep polluting at a level that only makes it safe to eat one bite of fish per day. Utterly Bizarre.*

manthou — June 27, 2013 at 10:45 a.m. ( | suggest removal

The fish consumption rate issue was "de-linked" from the tentative budget deal today.

After the budget gets solved, our finest (!) in Olympia will work out the transportation budget.

We are all in trouble if we hang on happiness on what happens at the state legislature.

manthou — June 27, 2013 at 12:40 p.m. ( | suggest removal

anybody else think the usa has become one of the most intrusive, anti-freedom fascist oppressors currently on earth?

oh, and a big hello to whichever big bro's following.

(lou: still think that 'aluminium hat' comment's witty?)

DeeLittle — June 27, 2013 at 6:37 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Yeah. What’s happened with Bria and the BGSD board-sometimes words just aren’t enough. Especially considering the problem they had getting the last levy passed and now this. The board meeting that’s going on should have a couple or three dissenters, I would guess. But reading the PDF documents that go along with the Columbian article, indicates there’s some legal situation/dispute that’s taken place and this payoff is the most expedient way to handle it. Doesn’t really matter, something is rotten no matter what. Liz Pike just got a boost.

kn_dalai — June 27, 2013 at 7:11 p.m. ( | suggest removal

kn_dalai — June 27, 2013 at 7:11 p.m.

It's no worse than Vancouver paying off their Police Chief. Not that it's right, it's just not different.

hawkeye — June 27, 2013 at 7:39 p.m. ( | suggest removal

The language in the Bria/BG contract is typical legalese when two parties mutually terminate a contract early.

It looks like they basically gave her two years' salary and benefits because they wanted her to go.

She got the better deal, for sure.

BG is one crazy school district. The residents, those who don't or can't leave, will never pass another school levy again. In fact, the school district may just be absorbed by neighboring school districts. A death wish for community growth and vitality.


manthou — June 27, 2013 at 9:54 p.m. ( | suggest removal

So I got out of bed this morning and found that I had overslept. Now that isn't so remarkable in of it self. What is remarkable is the idiots that will not let go of my ass. (wallet)

And to top it all off they think that it's just Jim Dandy!!! The thought, to me, seems to be as long as he, or she, has money then it should be all shared with everyone else. I mean you are directed by the collective to give until you are broke ass. With all the shortfalls and broken promises about how you guys will fix everything just give us a little more money is ringing hollow and has been for a long time. NOW you want more so you can build something new.

So here's how it goes. Some think it's more important to build some new bauble than to fix the infrastructure. All around us there are prime examples of this. From schools to roads we are just patching them up with no clear time table to actually fix them for good. But oh no we just have to have a bridge with Loo-Rail on it.

I wasn't kidding when I said that I was looking for a new place to dwell. You cannot have both something new and have any left over to do the right thing and fix what's broke down. You (you know who you are) are idiots if you think for one moment that your demands for more money from us to build something new without fixing the existing ... well maybe we are the idiots for electing you in the first place.

(Sound of one hand slapping the other!!) Bad hand, bad hand.

JohnCasey — June 28, 2013 at 7:51 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Buyouts in highly paid employee's contracts aren't that unusual-actually pretty common. People have every right to be pissed at the school board, either for agreeing to the buyout of having it included in the contract. What would concern me is why the buyout comes to light now-I think her "retirement" was announced after the levy vote. If this chit hit the fan prior to the levy, it probably would have failed, something all these people knew so they kept their shenanigans hush-hush. Pretty typical for today's elected critters. If they think folks will forget this next time a levy comes up they're nuts.

mrd — June 28, 2013 at 8:33 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Build the Damn bridge!

And put a ballpark next to it!

nailingit — June 28, 2013 at 9:13 a.m. ( | suggest removal

*Sometimes you have to hand it to China..*[link text][1]

A recent ruling by a court in Guangdong province is sure to be welcome news for Chinese men looking for a little something extra with their massages.

Last year, the Intermediate People's Court in the city of Foshan ruled that performing masturbation on another person in exchange for money is not illegal and those who perform such acts should not face prosecution, according to a Nandu Daily report translated by the Global Times.

Masturbation, which is referred to colloquially in Chinese as "hitting the airplane," "playing with little brother," and "visiting Miss Five," has long been an offering at some massage parlors in China. A 1999 Xinhua report found that one in five Chinese massage parlors were involved in prostitution, the Associated Press notes.

In Guangdong, locals were nonplussed by the new ruling on happy endings. "Girls come up to you and ask if you need it," Zhang Qian, a resident in Shenzhen, told the Global Times. "Of course, it should not be counted as prostitution because there is no actual sex involved."

The ruling did rub some people in China the wrong way.


nailingit — June 28, 2013 at 9:34 a.m. ( | suggest removal

The ruling did rub some people the wrong way.Thanks Nail I needed a little humor this morning.

timerick — June 28, 2013 at 9:44 a.m. ( | suggest removal

"visiting Miss Five," :))

Doesn't Fox News have a show called the 'Five'?


nailingit — June 28, 2013 at 10:03 a.m. ( | suggest removal

I did not have sex with that women!

timerick — June 28, 2013 at 10:06 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Drift & Nail how about some pot smoked pork.Give us you thoughts.

timerick — June 28, 2013 at 11:12 a.m. ( | suggest removal

It's nothing more than a gimmick, timerick.

BTW, the activity related in the "news" constitutes distribution of a controlled substance, under the law. No. I'm not kidding. Drug law is sort of a hobby of mine ;^)

Can you imagine the trial case?

"So tell me, sir, to whom was the controlled substance distributed to?"

(enter your own punch line here)

On a side note: has anyone else noticed other stuff trying to load while viewing the forum? Something about the Joey Channel. Again, I'm not kidding. Anyone?

Drift — June 28, 2013 at 11:40 a.m. ( | suggest removal

I haven't noticed anything.But thanks to you and Nail for a few good laughs today.I don't think that at 19 to 20 dollars a pound I will be trying the pot pork either.Although it would make for a interesting bar b que.

timerick — June 28, 2013 at 12:02 p.m. ( | suggest removal

timerick & Drift. Think of the possibilities! Acapulco Riblets! Bubba's KushChops!

Yeah, Drift is most likely right. Gimmickry. Pricey, but I bet they're dang good!

Some Applesauce, biscuits with special butter, and a Root Beer sounds great.

And to top it off...

Lái dào zhèlǐ de yīng'ér hé fàngdài de xiāoxi!

I haven't noticed any recent problems. I messaged John Hill today and asked if we could get forum links fixed to the way they were.

nailingit — June 28, 2013 at 12:42 p.m. ( | suggest removal

nailingit — June 28, 2013 at 12:42 p.m

Looks like you got it fixed, your Huff post link works fine.

OK, enough Paula Deen bashing. First the stupid Cooking Channel, then Caesar's Casinos, then Walmart and now her stinkin' publisher is dropping her, **and she has the number one book at Amazon.** Seriously, is it just me or is EVERYBODY dumping on this old lady? Just doesn't seem fair for something that happened 30 years ago and I'll bet the Bush boys still say.

hawkeye — June 28, 2013 at 1:59 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Thanks John Hill!

And to celebrate, a song for liberals & conservatives!

For Liberals, one of the best groups ever performing a great song..

For conservatives, it's what they do!

nailingit — June 28, 2013 at 2:28 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Damn it!

nailingit — June 28, 2013 at 2:29 p.m. ( | suggest removal

For some reason vids aren't displayed as before.

nailingit — June 28, 2013 at 2:32 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Thanks, nail.... I love JT but it hurts to watch him. Something about the way he says his words but he's got a great voice.

hawkeye — June 28, 2013 at 2:44 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Beautiful afternoon.Hawk I am going to wipe off that red car and take it for a drive.End of the month and bookkeeper has left and payroll is made.I will lock up early.I have made enough social security for you retired guys for one week.But don't worry I will start again Monday.

timerick — June 28, 2013 at 3:49 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Hey hawk. I sent another message. Many times Vid displays would save a click or two.

I listened to Aqualung yesterday and it affirmed (my opinion) it's one of the best recordings ever.

They brought something to music's table that was as unique as it is great.

nailingit — June 28, 2013 at 3:50 p.m. ( | suggest removal

*Didn't House Republicans run on Jobs & reducing the deficit?*

**House Abortion Bill Increases Spending: CBO**

A Republican bill that passed the House of Representatives June 18 banning abortions after 20 weeks conflicts with another one of the party's priorities -- to cut spending.

The Congressional Budget Office scored the Pain-Capable Unborn Child Protection Act and said Thursday the bill would increase Medicaid costs from $75 million to $400 million over 10 years, mostly due to an increase in births. Estimating that one-quarter of pregnancies that would have been terminated after 20 weeks would instead, under the law, be carried to term, the CBO said federal spending for Medicaid would increase by $225 million.

The CBO also predicted that the bill would add another $170 million in Medicaid costs to states over 10 years, since the program is partly funded by the states.

Rep. Trent Franks (R-Ariz.) sponsored the bill, and caused a controversy when he said he opposed including an exception for cases of rape because "the incidence of rape resulting in pregnancy are very low." The bill was later amended to allow an exemption for rapes.

Read more @

nailingit — June 28, 2013 at 4:30 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Deep Purple - Child In Time - a 1970 BBC taping. The band does some of their best work here.

roger — June 28, 2013 at 8:52 p.m. ( | suggest removal

No, Nails - No baseball stadium, and soon no bridge. The Repubs won't pass a Trans bill with the CRC in it - The CRC has proven to be too crooked even for our state gov't. Hopefully they'll stick with demanding we vote on any gas tax increase this coming November.

roger — June 28, 2013 at 8:59 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Another Deep Purple live tune - Black Night - 172 in Copenhagen

roger — June 28, 2013 at 9:07 p.m. ( | suggest removal

roger — June 28, 2013 at 8:59 p.m.

I'm still crying **FOUL!**

If they need to increase taxes (which I really doubt) they should do it with an increase to the sales tax. .01% should do it state wide instead of a gas tax increase. After all, everyone benefits from better roads and bridges. Why punish only the drivers.

hawkeye — June 28, 2013 at 10:34 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Remember how so many people are lauding Monica Stonier for keeping her promise to oppose new taxes?

She chose her constituents over her caucus.

Many Senate Republicans are now in the same boat with the Transportation package. Funding for a couple of pet projects (Spokane and Pierce County) are linked to funding for the CRC in the Transportation bill.

An extension of SR 167 to the Port of Tacoma is supported by many Republican businessmen and women, for example. If they want that important project in their district, something they have been begging for for over 20 years, they have to support the CRC or both projects are dead. Same story with the Spokane project: Republican district. Republican benefit.

They are in the same boat as Monica: do I please my caucus or my constituents?

Why is Monica a heroine for listening to her constituents and why are the Republicans who vote for the Transportation budget in the Senate evil?

Inquiring minds want to know. :)

manthou — June 29, 2013 at 5:57 a.m. ( | suggest removal

The Tacoma News Tribune Editorial yesterday:

**The job’s not done yet, lawmakers. Now it’s highway time.

It’s great that the Legislature’s Republicans and Democrats finally settled on a state operating budget that reportedly directs an additional $1 billion to schools. We’re looking forward to seeing the details, where the devil often resides.

But the passage of an operating budget was always a foregone conclusion, despite the months of bickering over its specific provisions. The Washington Constitution requires the Legislature to approve one.

A genuine accomplishment of this Legislature – that includes you, Republican senators – would be passage of a transportation budget to unplug bottlenecked corridors where the state’s freight and traffic are now getting slowly strangled.

The $10 billion package – approved Thursday by the House of Representatives – is of paramount importance to the state’s economy.

Only one Republican – Puyallup’s Hans Zeiger – had the guts to support it. Most other lawmakers in his party appear willing to kill it for one reason: The highway improvements require new tax revenue. These legislators chatter about massive reforms in the Department of Transportation and other near-term impossibilities, but it really comes down to evading a tax vote.

At the risk of belaboring the obvious, roads and bridges don’t grow on trees. Santa Claus doesn’t lug them down the chimney. You’ve got to buy them.

If you don’t need them, that’s one thing. But Washington sorely needs strategic investment in its infrastructure – in Spokane, at Snoqualmie Pass, on Interstate 405 and other places where cargo and cars are getting halted for lack of road capacity.

State Route 167 is the poster child of lost economic opportunity. That highway passes from I-405 through Renton, Kent and Auburn – only to get guillotined at Puyallup. A mere six miles separate it from the Port of Tacoma and the I-5 corridor.

Those missing miles are a death trap for commerce and jobs. Manufacturers and farmers want fast, reliable access to markets – and the port can no longer guarantee that into the future. Washington is already losing an estimated 80,000 permanent jobs to that gap on SR 167, and the cost will only go up as shippers and exporters look for speedier alternatives.

Transportation investment was not always a partisan issue. An earlier generation of Republicans understood the connection between thriving businesses and efficient movement of goods and people.

But the party’s current anti-tax absolutism threatens serious damage to Washington’s economic future. That mindset has to give if the state GOP is to be taken seriously as a potential governing party. The loss of the transportation package would be inexcusable – and Republicans will bear full responsibility for the consequences.

Read more here:**

manthou — June 29, 2013 at 6:09 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Don't celebrate too quickly about the transportation package just yet. I sure the idiots are still trying to pull a rabbit out of their ... Given their track record I pretty confident that's what their doing right now. I won't celebrate until midnight Sunday.

I can believe the arrogance of some of them though. That's just their nature. They're like a dog with an old bone. Even though there's not much left the dog just won't give it up. Some of them are not going to survive the next election cycle because of their stubbornness in the matter of adding new taxes and upping fees just to drive and do business in this state.

Now that they are almost out of time they will blame everybody else but accept no blame for their own actions. Hopefully the voters will know better next time. Alright maybe not but one can only hope. Any bets??

JohnCasey — June 29, 2013 at 7:34 a.m. ( | suggest removal

JohnCasey: I watched much of the goings-on yesterday on TVW dot org.

There was so much self-congratulatory hot air in the end, I could not believe it.

Both sides giving each other figurative high-fives and back-slaps for passing a budget and working together, I thought I was watching a parallel universe unfold.


We have a reality disconnect. The legislators see things very differently than what we do, apparently.

The Senate reconvenes today at 1.

I can hardly wait.

It is true that many Republican business persons are very supportive of those critical transportation packages in their own districts. Their senators will have to deny them these if they deny the CRC.

manthou — June 29, 2013 at 7:49 a.m. ( | suggest removal

The Tacoma News Tribune seems to be leading the journalistic editorial charge on passing a Transportation budget.

This excerpt from their June 26th editorial:

**Other regions have big stakes in this (transportation) measure:

• It would earmark $175 million to rebuild I-5 interchanges near Joint Base Lewis-McChord to ease traffic jams that paralyze the freeway on a regular basis.

• It would widen and add lanes to Interstate 405 to relieve congestion in that corridor.

• It would extend highway and rail corridors in Spokane, expanding that area’s freight-shipping capacity. It would also widen Snoqualmie Pass to improve its safety and ability to handle large trucks.

Freight mobility isn’t a particularly sexy issue, but the ability to efficiently move goods — apples, jet components, electronics, wheat — is vital to Washington economic future. All of these projects would help move people efficiently as well.

Improvements of this magnitude don’t come cheap. The investment will require additional taxes, including a gas tax that would eventually ratchet up to 10.5 cents a gallon.

Some lawmakers claim they want the job-generating projects even as they try to evade the tax vote needed to make the projects happen.

They’re quick with excuses. They’d vote yes if only the state Department of Transportation were overhauled first. They’d vote yes if only a particular project were configured a different way. They’d vote yes if only there weren’t light rail on the Columbia River.

If only everything were perfect first.

But this is a package deal that requires an up-or-down vote. Queasy lawmakers who understand what’s at stake should take a deep breath, ignore loud but shortsighted people, then vote their conscience and the interests of their state. Ten, 20 and 30 years from now, they will look back and feel proud.

Read more here:**

manthou — June 29, 2013 at 7:56 a.m. ( | suggest removal

The News Tribune is editorializing about timely issues that will impact our future in this state and Lou B is waxing eloquent on Tony Soprano.

Is the Columbian gonna blow the opportunity handed to them by The Oregonian?

See you at the Recycled Arts Fair in Esther Short today, all.

Stay cool.

manthou — June 29, 2013 at 7:59 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Two more things them it's off for the day to enjoy the fantastic weather.

Number one is please, please watch out for the children when driving around. They don't know what they do. And parents please keep a close eye on your children.

Number two is when you take out you pets for a day in the sun don't forget to bring plenty of water for them. Not just enough for you. Be responsible and avoid a potential tragedy. Now some of you will say 'duh' but I am still amazed at the stupidity of some pet owners. They will tell you their pet is like one of their family but if that was true you wouldn't have near the amount of deaths of the pets that we read about. Anybody who has seen the animals in heat stroke distress will know what I mean. It's not pretty.

JohnCasey — June 29, 2013 at 8:01 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Excellent posts manthou! Thank you for bringing this issue full circle in such a thoughtful way. Hopefully lawmakers will do what is in the best interest of our state.

As I've mentioned before, I've lived here but a short time. I am taken back by those who not only object to paying monies to improve our community, but how adamant they are.

Let's get this bridge built and shore up transpo needs.

And maybe someday...maybe someday we'll have the collective foresight to bring a pro sports team here. Something to bring this frac/tured community together.

nailingit — June 29, 2013 at 8:21 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Man. I just read this article. The anti-investment crowd are already celebrating.

They forget some of these party hacks can be bought for the right/any price.

Wheel & deal Dems. Let's get this pushed through.

nailingit — June 29, 2013 at 8:40 a.m. ( | suggest removal

*Moeller dishes out a taste of reality.*

Jim Moeller · Top Commenter

"Republican Sen. Pam Roach stormed out of a late-night meeting about the issue Friday after she said some of her colleagues were afraid of being blamed for the package’s failure." Of course the Republicans will be blamed! The House Democrats chose to invest in the future. The Senate Republicans choose the past. House Democrats choose safety, business and trade. The Senate Republicans instead choose - to give up. No leadership, no vision, no ideas and no future.

Reply · 13 · · 7 hours ago

Jim Moeller · Top Commenter

I posted this article last last night and if the critics who post here think this is the end of the CRC, they don't know me OR the process very well. The governor is still as committed as ever to a transportation package, the Coast Guard has yet to issue their permit. The mitigation with TMF is still going on, the funding from Oregon has until September until it expires. All this article reports is the inability of the Senate to deal with governing their caucus and a lack of vision of the Senate Republicans.

Reply · · 5 minutes ago

nailingit — June 29, 2013 at 8:46 a.m. ( | suggest removal

There’s more than one way to respond to your questions Manthou. Here’s one.

You underestimate the importance of the lite rail component to the CRC. It is not just another public infrastructure project, like roads and bridges.

Both lite rail and tax increases are Democrat driven.

Ask for the whole loaf, settle for half now in the name of compromise, then get the other half later.

kn_dalai — June 29, 2013 at 9:11 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Morning all. I for one actually hope the CRC in its present form dies. Nope, do not want to be stuck with this mess. Give me a decent bridge that satisfies requirements and I will be satisfied. But not this crony-driven, idiotic, 1 mile light rail. We are not here to bail out Oregon. Enough of that crap. I might be a Dem but in this case I side with "the other ones." Do it right, it's a waste of money in its present form. Somebody needs to do a real investigation; I want to know where all the money went with zero to show for. I am not adverse to paying for needed infrastructure, but so far, we have paid and paid and our roads are crumbling. Fix those first.

Likewise, I am not averse to a pro-sports team here but a second-rate baseball team that requires us to pay for a fancy stadium when we cannot support our police and fire departments? Don't think so, not on my dime. Maybe when we can afford it and then for something decent. This one was unworthy, no return ever to pay for it. Pick your battles - and that one was not worth 5 minutes.

Honestly, I love living here, it is a great place. But the stupidity out of Olympia, Salem, and locally (County) boggles the mind. Isn't there anybody with brains running the show???

Never mind that last question.

luvithere — June 29, 2013 at 9:34 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Manthou - There's a flaw with your argument about the road upgrades in the Tacoma area that will be affected if this bill dies. Sen Dammeier (R) of Puyallup and the 25th District supports funding those upgrades. However, he's also a fiscal conservative, and was elected on wanting tax bills to pass the voters with a 2/3 majority. So his sticking with the opposition to the Transportation bill is consistent with meeting the needs of his constituents. The majority of Pierce County is - like here - working people who can't afford this gas tax.

Rep Clibborn may have problems, though. I believe she's in favor of tolling the I90 bridge to help pay for the SR520 bridge; something her fellow residents of Mercer Island are very opposed to.

roger — June 29, 2013 at 10:19 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Also, and after reading the Tacoma news articles, I'm reminded of another solution which has been floated in the past. Dropping light rail from the CRC and raising the bridge height to meet the needs of Thompson and the others will possibly get a couple of local State Senators to change their vote.

Me - I still see it as a waste of money. We need more bridges before we need a new I5 bridge. The so-called Common Sense Alternative is better than what we're being fed by the CRC.

roger — June 29, 2013 at 10:33 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Hawkeye @ 10:34 last night.

I agree; better roads do provide benefits to even those who don't drive on them - cheaper food at the market, for example. A sales tax increase would be appropriate. But the counterarguments are --
1) Any sales tax increase affects business (or so Identity Clark County and the Chamber of Commerce said, when they urged people to vote against the C-Tran LRT O&M; tax), and
2) The real goal remains one of making it too expensive for the average person to drive.

roger — June 29, 2013 at 10:41 a.m. ( | suggest removal

There's a light plane flying overhead towing a white banner with some sort of blue design or lettering. It's made a couple of passes, but too far east for me to make out what it's saying. Anyone else see it?

roger — June 29, 2013 at 10:46 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Well Roger hopefully this bridge episode will change course and become something more realistic.Now if those of us that live in the city can change mayors and a couple of councilmen we might get something done.What do you think of Turlay?Is any change better than what we have.I think maybe yes.

timerick — June 29, 2013 at 10:53 a.m. ( | suggest removal

It's made a couple of passes, but too far east for me to make out what it's saying. Anyone else see it?

roger — June 29, 2013 at 10:46 a.m.

Yeah. It said, "Build The Damn Bridge!"

"And Put A Ballpark Next To It!"

"Conservatives Suck!"

"Mitt Romney Is PanSexual!"

And please don't shoot the messenger. I'm only obliging.

nailingit — June 29, 2013 at 11:47 a.m. ( | suggest removal

You got that wrong, Nails. It said "Stop wasting money on light rail." "Get me a third bridge."
"Romney stinks."

I am in east county so I saw it better.

luvithere — June 29, 2013 at 12:46 p.m. ( | suggest removal

I saw it plain as day.

It says:

> All you Leftists quit straining your eyes to read this: YOU'RE ALREADY BLIND AS BATS!

kn_dalai — June 29, 2013 at 1:40 p.m. ( | suggest removal

OK - I'm thinking I saw a large 'M' in the middle - Couldn't decide if it was a David Madore self advertisement, or one for the new WalMart and the banner flipped over.

roger — June 29, 2013 at 2:22 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Tim - Yes, hopefully there will be changes for the better. I'm thinking the first thing that needs to happen is to determine the road for trucks to take from I5 to the Port of Vancouver - build the road correctly with minimal stops required, and then require the truckers to use it. How much did we spend a few years ago to make Mill Plain the access route, just to have truckers decide 4th Plain or 39th Street and down Fruit Valley were better options?

We could also start a conversation on how to fix SR14. It's just too close to the river to build proper ramps for both I5 and I205. (Trucks are turning over on those western side ramps of I205 all the time.) Maybe look at rerouting SR14 so it enters the I5 at the Mill Plain interchange. This would have to be done before developers get a chance to build up the Van Barracks area.

There's lots we can do here. And hopefully Oregon will now focus on cleaning up that I84/I5/I405/OR26 nightmare they've created. They can build a bridge from Delta Park to Hayden Island, and then shut down the I5 ramps to/from the island - have all our WA tax cheats take an extra few minutes getting there via the Delta Park exit, and who cares how long they have to wait at Marine Drive to get back on the I5. (Next time they may decide to shop in The Couve and pay the sales tax.)

roger — June 29, 2013 at 4:02 p.m. ( | suggest removal

You are right Roger.The ramps need to change.Way back when they started talking about Mill Plain being the truck route I fought against that also.For 2 reasons.The first is why would you mix cars and big rigs on the same route.Mill Plain is the most visible and used route to downtown.The second is it puts the truck route 20 feet from my storefront door.But I have learned to live with that.Hopefully our planers have learned a lesson or two.And again Roger thank you for all your research and putting that out for all to see.

timerick — June 29, 2013 at 5:57 p.m. ( | suggest removal

roger: I am all for keeping Washington residents on the north bank of the Columbia River for shopping, dining, and all things having to do with spending their hard earned dollars in the state where they live. For our B and O business taxes, we absolutely have to declare anything we purchased out of state that did not collect a WA tax. It is simply easier and right just to write the checks here and support local businesses.

I am seeing a lot of Oregon plates parked in local neighborhoods long term, too. What's up with that? They get to whip out their Oregon DL when paying for goods and services here?

I am more than mildly amused at all the arm chair engineers and transportation experts who are cropping up like flies on poop all of a sudden on the FB side. Most of us will be long dead before a viable bridge plan is agreed upon and implemented to replace it. Heck, the chief designer is not out of middle school yet, I'll wager.

As someone who started out in 2005 going to multiple CRC meetings, I am sitting out the next round of fights and cheering/booing from the bench. There should be plenty of others with more energy and enthusiasm for it, anyway.

God speed, y'all. I mean it.

manthou — June 29, 2013 at 6:17 p.m. ( | suggest removal

timerick: I hate having a truck route to the Port on Mill Plain or Fourth Plain, too. The folks on 39th hate that option, too.

The Port and the RTC (Regional Transportation Council) have identified Fourth Plain as a "corridor of regional significance." That designation puts it in line for widening to make it easier for freight to carry oversize loads like wind turbines. 75 percent of the structures on Fourth Plain are homes or churches, not businesses.

Another future fight looming for someone with more energy, too. :)

manthou — June 29, 2013 at 6:25 p.m. ( | suggest removal

1) Any sales tax increase affects business (or so Identity Clark County and the Chamber of Commerce said, when they urged people to vote against the C-Tran LRT O&M; tax), and
2) The real goal remains one of making it too expensive for the average person to drive.

roger — June 29, 2013 at 10:41 a.m.

1), so does the cost of gasoline/diesel.
2), that will NEVER happen. You need trucks to get everything to customers. You need cars to get to the store and everywhere else. Also, gasoline is going away, not cars.

A sales tax increase is the necessary move, not the popular one but the best one.

hawkeye — June 29, 2013 at 6:36 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Hawkeye - And again - I agree with you on the sales tax. But Paul Montague (ICC) and Kelly Parker (GVCC) don't.

roger — June 29, 2013 at 7:08 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Manthou I agree with you about 4th Plain.It puts me between a rock and a hard spot as I live just 4 blocks off 4th Plain.But there again I have gotten used to it.We were here when 4th Plain was the truck route.

timerick — June 29, 2013 at 7:14 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Manthou - I suppose I'm one of those armchair engineers and designers, seeing as how I've been voicing ideas on facebook. Oh well.

There was at least one plan that's been around for a few years - the CRC rejected it for not meeting their 6 point criteria (which included LRT on the interstate bridge). That was Kevin Peterson's plan. There was an excellent video presentation of this plan, but I haven't found it. Here's his longer document discussing the presentation; Andrea had linked to it in an article she wrote.

There's also the plan being called the Common Sense Alternative. This would take a bit more buy in from Portland, but it would provide for another bridge for local traffic that would include light rail, a new bridge for express rail (something being planned separately is an express rail service from Eugene to Seattle; this bridge would support that goal), rebuilding the BNSF rail bridge to eliminate the difficult transit ships have to take, and a seismic retrofit of the current bridges.

The opposition from CRC planners and supporters to both Kevin Peterson (an experienced bridge designer and builder) and Joe Cortright (a city planner of some expertise) has helped convinced many of the opposition that there have been other agendas by the planners.

roger — June 29, 2013 at 7:34 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Manthou - All those Oregon tagged vehicles are a sore point with many on this side of the river. A few years back the police would actually try to turn up people who were failing to register their cars when moving here. People were encouraged to call in and report people living in their neighborhoods and apartment complexes with out of state tags. The schoolhouse stakeout of a couple of years ago was the last effort I've heard about - I gather they've decided budget cuts make this an unnecessary enforcement issue. Given the size of the fine (about $800.00 last I heard), I suspect pressure came from somewhere to stop this. Too bad - we could put that money to good use.

roger — June 29, 2013 at 7:44 p.m. ( | suggest removal

roger: You do your homework so most of us don't have to. :)

Remember way back when you first started commenting here? I told you that you were our Reader's Digest for all things notable.

I remember the Peterson plan and the Common Sense Alternative. How long do you think it's gonna take for us to choose one and get back in line for Federal funding?

You are probably right that there must have been some hidden, more sinister reason that the CRC rejected those plans. Maybe we will find out.

manthou — June 29, 2013 at 8:04 p.m. ( | suggest removal

I have been a Kevin Peterson supporter for several years and his design is and has been the best design possible. One thing I really liked about it was it was designed to either have LR on board or left off and installed later on.

There are two things that have bothered me from the beginning. 1) Shouldn't the Coast Guard have been involved in this from day one? I mean, how can anybody even think about design, ramps or LR if you don't know how high the damn thing has to be? And 2) It's just plain stupid to run the LR to Clark College. If you are going to bring it to this side of the big ditch, it has to go to where the people are. That means going up I-5 to at least Salmon Creek park and ride. I mean, those big parking lots are designed for collecting cars, aren't they?

hawkeye — June 29, 2013 at 8:51 p.m. ( | suggest removal

*thank you GOD*

one for us...only one, but a biggie. let's hope *next* time, they start out with engineers and not slimy politicians.

DeeLittle — June 29, 2013 at 9:13 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Interesting that the truck routes from I-5 to the Port of Vancouver are being discussed here.

Before I was too young to remember the specifics, and before most of you have ever lived here; there was a vote by the locals as to the preferred route that I-5 should take. The present route won the day, but the alternative route was along Fruit Valley.

You’ve ended up with a city that is physically divided by the I5 freeway, as its detractors back then said it would be, and heavy truck traffic that’s looking for a way to get to the port; through the pedestrian used streets.

Use your Mill Plain or Fourth Plain routes as you will. The real opportunities were lost decades ago. Glad that the big thinkers of lite rail who want to run train tracks up the middle of Vancouver, can see things so much more clearly than the unwashed masses. Personally; I can’t stand driving around Portland; can’t stand those rails down the middle of the streets. But the again; I guess that’s the game plan.

kn_dalai — June 29, 2013 at 10:11 p.m. ( | suggest removal

///Off the Rails///

Why do conservatives hate trains so much?

What, exactly, do Republicans, conservatives, and libertarians have against trains? Seriously, what? Why did President George W. Bush try to zero out Amtrak funding in 2005? Why is the conservative Republican Study Committee suggesting that we do so now? Why does George Will think "the real reason for progressives' passion for trains is their goal of diminishing Americans' individualism in order to make them more amenable to collectivism"?

"You need to distinguish between Republicans and conservatives and libertarians when you look at this," says William Lind, the director of the American Conservative Center for Public Transportation. "It's the libertarians who push this crap."

Read more @

nailingit — June 30, 2013 at 6:34 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Manthou and Roger, like you I too have been saying for years that there are other options out there. Like rerouting entrances away for the bridge in the first place. I have said for years the problem with the SR-14 entrance southbound is way too close and is a major logjam at rush hour. So is the Mill plain southbound entrance. You have to deal with cars exiting I-5 southbound to SR-14 eastbound.

I also proposed that the CRC folks at least look at working with the railroad to get trains to Union Station from the Vancouver depot. As the I-5 bridge can't be lifted from 6 to 9 in the morning and from 3 to 6 in the evening it could be a viable option. C-Tran could provide express buses from the park and rides. That would eliminate the need for those parking structures. It was said that railroad wouldn't allow that. That isn't true and a lot of municipalities across the country do work with them.

On the Oregon side move the entrances I-5 northbound from Hayden Island to merge further south. The list goes on, but you get my drift.

The problem from the outset was the fool LOO-RAIL addition. It's like throwing money down a rat hole. another problem is the CRC got into lockstep with P-Town and with blinders on decided that there will be no other option researched. The want of LOO-RAIL was just too strong.

Now that it is supposedly done with (don't count your chickens) some of our reps will try any sneaky little trick to try and get it back. I guarantee those idiots will not give up.

By the way why are more people in P-Town starting to raise their voices against LOO-RAIL if it's so good for you. My bet is that it's money verses return. If they were getting a better return and not running in the red so much. They are getting tired of paying for something that has for so long been mismanaged. And our reps have told us that we should get cozy with them.

JohnCasey — June 30, 2013 at 6:53 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Good morning JohnCasey. Just a quick two cents here. My feeling is that the CRC was and is not as big a deal for the Ptown people as it is here. At least among those that I know personally. why? Because they are not the ones having to pay tolls on a daily basis and having to commute across the bridge for a living. It's the WA folks who are stuck with it. Don't hear too much from the gazillion folks who are ostensibly driving here so often to shop so frequently. This ridiculous plan was solidly built on our backs.

Nice day so far, looking for a cool spot to spend the day. Might drive out to the Gorge a bit, enjoy the sights.

luvithere — June 30, 2013 at 8:17 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Hey JohnCasey, those were my thoughts exactly. The ramps need to be away from the bridge and built so that there isn't a back-up onto the freeway.

On another note, did anybody catch the news last night? Apparently after King David did his best to get lifeguards approved for Klineline Park, nobody applied. Maybe Dave will don his trunks, he needs to save something cause his career as a politician is drowning.

hawkeye — June 30, 2013 at 8:33 a.m. ( | suggest removal

luvithere: There was a huge contingency of bicycle enthusiasts in Portland and Seattle that vehemently opposed the CRC.

One reason was that they thought adding so many bridge lanes was too "car focused." They think folks should abandon cars for bikes as much as possible. If we had trouble selling LR, you can bet we would have trouble with a Locally Preferred Alternative being the bike. :)

Another reason is that the approach to the new bridge was much too steep to be bicycle-friendly.

A commenter last night in Seattle cites Inslee's recent visit to a bicycle group there, touting the CRC, as a prime reason for its demise: he honked off a huge group of citizens who, like many in Portlandia, think the bicycle is King.

manthou — June 30, 2013 at 8:56 a.m. ( | suggest removal

One reason was that they thought adding so many bridge lanes was too "car focused." They think folks should abandon cars for bikes as much as possible. If we had trouble selling LR, you can bet we would have trouble with a Locally Preferred Alternative being the bike. :)

Another reason is that the approach to the new bridge was much too steep to be bicycle-friendly.

nailingit: I always thought that the powerful crude oil lobby was responsible for our hatred of all things train travel. Europe is not like that. In the good ol' USA, we want to keep people in gas guzzlers rather than AMTRAK.

manthou — June 30, 2013 at 8:59 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Excuse the semi-double post: Captcha is cranky.

No editorial from the Columbian on the failure of the CRC?

Anyone have a theory as to why?

I do like one today that asked Madore and Mielke to make some evidence-based decisions for a change. However, seems to me that the CRC is the elephant in the newsroom today.

Or should be.

manthou — June 30, 2013 at 9:03 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Manthou, thanks for the info on bikes. Seems everybody has an opinion on the CRC, even those on bikes. I like to see them all commuting across the river, to work, daily, feet to the pedal. I think the C is still writing the editorial on this. Have to think on how to present this outcome.
I would like for us to move ahead, think of a decent alternative, fix what needs the real fixing, and get something done for a change. And stop spending hundreds of millions of dollars on nothing!

luvithere — June 30, 2013 at 9:13 a.m. ( | suggest removal

hawkeye — June 29, 2013 at 8:51 p.m.

The USCG held a meeting at Red Lion at the Quay in 2006, where Thompsons and others made their needs known. The CRC knew of this meeting, and has (or had) a document detailing it posted to their website - Andrea used it as a source for her excellent article discussing this issue. The CRC planners chose to ignore this, using Pearson Airfield and a bogus claim that 95 feet was as high as they could go or the FAA wouldn't approve the project. (Pearson field input was never sought, and FAA review and approval has never been asked for.) Personally, I'm thinking the planners made a critical error in thinking Transportation Sec'y LaHood could direct the USCG to approve their plan - The USCG was moved from Transportation to Homeland Security back around 2002.

roger — June 30, 2013 at 10:34 a.m. ( | suggest removal


I think it's a mistake to lump rapid transit in with light rail. One of the biggest reasons AmTrak has never lived up to its capability to provide an alternative to flying or driving is that it's restricted to the speed limits of the railroad company tracks it uses.

One of the proposals of that Common Sense Alternative plan is a bridge dedicated to rail rapid transit. There are separate plans to run a service up from Eugene (I haven't seen details and can't speak on it). But I think it would be an excellent idea to invest in dedicated tracks built to handle true high speed rail here in the Pacific Northwest. The current service sucks. I rode AmTrak to the station by the ballpark one morning, planning on a leisurely stroll up to Pikes Place market, do a little shopping, and then catch the late afternoon train back to Vancouver. The damn train was late crossing the river here, and got held up for another train up around Tacoma. I had time to make a fast walk to the 1st Starbucks for a bag of coffee and a fast walk back to catch my return train. And though that one got me back here on time (about 8 p.m.) it was held at the Vancouver station because the railroad bridge was open.

We can do much better.

roger — June 30, 2013 at 10:55 a.m. ( | suggest removal

roger — June 30, 2013 at 10:34 a.m.

Sounds like what we have here is a lack of communication. Or poor planning or stupidity or just a badly administered group of idiots.

I always thought they should build the bridge to clear 98% of the on water traffic with a drawbridge option to open on those special occasions and have those occasions scheduled for 2AM lifts.

hawkeye — June 30, 2013 at 10:58 a.m. ( | suggest removal

**A HUGE sigh of relief!!!**

Thank you Washington State Senate who stuck to their guns and listened to the people!!! Your work is cut out for you to join with your fellow members in the Senate who opposed your stance as well as those in the Washington State House of Representatives AND our governor in order to come to an agreement to continue the work on *necessary* improvements of current bridges and roadways, including working in conjunction with the State of Oregon and finally seismic retrofitting the I-5 Bridge.

Regarding those involved in the CRC planning and processing (excluding the members of committees who worked with honesty and integrity together for what they believed were the right solutions)'s not over for you yet. I speak of those of you who will face the official audit (and you know who you are) approved by Governor Inslee which still must be performed. I speak of you who have utilized your political clout, your public order to prevent the rights of the citizens to vote on this project. I speak of you who have done everything and anything in your power to try to silence the people and to suppress OUR rights of freedom of speech. You KNOW who you are. You should be embarrassed and ashamed of yourselves. How can you look at yourselves in the mirror???

If there is any evidence of misappropriation of funds or any criminal WILL soon have to answer TO THE PEOPLE.

goldenoldie — June 30, 2013 at 11:34 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Goldie:Nice to have you back.We won this round.There are going to be a few more to come.There are so many people to thank for this.I don't think that the in group ever thought the people would stand up and be counted.It has been people like Roger that took the time to do lots of home work that made this happen.Also hundreds of small business people that stood together.Now lets focus on a bridge that will benefit all of us with a cost that is with in reason.For me it will be the 4th plain BRT.We will see what happens.

timerick — June 30, 2013 at 6:49 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Tim - Please don't do that. People like Joe Cortright, Ken Peterson, and Tiffany Couch did the work. I'm just one of many who took the time to understand what they were saying and decided this was a fight worth getting involved in. People like you and Ms. Wallis put a real face to the problems this project would cause to downtown businesses. Andrea Damewood wrote several informative articles exposing the chicanery and other shenanigans of the CRC. People like Hawkeye (his sales tax funding) kept bringing up good ideas that were being ignored. David Madore (like him or not) threw his money into the fight. Robert Dean kept challenging the legality of not following the state law that says we should vote on the project. Many of us wrote our legislators. Both Don Benton and Ann Rivers worked to educate their peers in the Senate on the negatives we were seeing with this project. This list can go on and on. And at the end of the day, there were so many of us speaking out that the State Senate took notice and decided it was time to stop this project and have it done right or not at all.

roger — June 30, 2013 at 7:31 p.m. ( | suggest removal

ROGER et al

***THANK YOU ALL*** from we the people who are physically useless in a firefight.

we do our part (write, post, call, bitch, etc), but it's YOUR detail that achieved the objective

DeeLittle — June 30, 2013 at 7:39 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Goldie - It really wasn't very nice to go over to Lew Waters' website and make fun of the people who post here. Many of us consider HC a royal pain, and I'm sure just about every one of us can also say this holds true for another one of us. (Nails and Lord Basil are often quite irritated with me, for example.) But at least we keep it in house.

And, if you want my opinion, Mr. Waters' influence on anything in this area dropped to zero when he decided to boycott "The Lazy C." The Clark County Conservative has about 5-10 regular readers. We can probably claim a larger following here.

roger — June 30, 2013 at 7:45 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Roger, I still think your very informed postings might have persuaded a few to stop this mess. I always enjoyed reading what you had to say. For me, you brought up a very interesting question, namely, what are the REAL interests behind this design? Never thought of some of the things you did. So thanks from me also.

Now that this is behind us for the moment, will Benton show up in county for work? Or will he just keep getting a paycheck for not showing up? He DID get paid the last two months, didn't he? Since we had to fill this role so fast and all, important as it is....

luvithere — June 30, 2013 at 8:21 p.m. ( | suggest removal

roger: I was just thinking of giving goldie that same feedback. It was hurtful, actually, but not unexpected, to see our posts mocked on Lew W's blog, thanks to goldie. Don't know what you get out of it, goldie. But we get along just fine here, disagree, inform, and persuade without a lot of belittling.

Now we're somehow good enough?

That's all I am going to say 'bout that.

Some enterprising and talented young journalist (are you reading this, Andrea?) will write a good investigative book on the CRC journey. She probably has so much data in hand already for a good start.

Or a filmmaker will do a documentary.

There is so much rich material here and we really do not know the whole story yet.

What do you all think? Will we see an in-depth analysis and expose?

manthou — June 30, 2013 at 8:37 p.m. ( | suggest removal

goldenoldie — June 30, 2013 at 11:34 a.m.

Really? You're back?


I'm sure Lew will miss you.


As for the CRC being "dead", all I can say is watch out for Zombies.

hawkeye — June 30, 2013 at 9:12 p.m. ( | suggest removal

I hope so Manthou.There are lots of people that need to be exposed.

timerick — June 30, 2013 at 9:16 p.m. ( | suggest removal

"We can do much better."

roger — June 30, 2013 at 10:55 a.m.

Doubt it roger. Whatever is proposed will cost $$$. God forbid it should come out of the pockets from those who live here. (Maybe we could scrounge up some money defunding Special Needs Services, I'm sure there will be cost overruns) There is a faction in this community who are truly something special. And who truly believe they are. The Face Book comments patting one another on the back for, at least so they believe, playing a part in obstructing Washington State's transportation needs are, for lack of a better word, special.

With Brother Tim singing your praises both here, FB, and I'm sure many other sites and blogs you folks ascribe to, I'm thinking I'm missing something here. (nothing new) You must hold a position I'm unaware of. Time to fess up! Part of Madore's inner prayer circle? Been lunching with "the Don"? Knockin' down some shots of Cuervo with the Mielke?

Let me in Man. I could dig sharing some Surf & Turf with the new EnviroMeister, or taking advantage of some of those darling dancing Tax Breaks (part of our new "fiscal" package! Does it include strip joints?) and doin' a Ballroom jig with our local CC Commissh who's followers worship him as Jesus. Or making some moonshine with the guy who sounds drunk all the time. BM & more Movement with another M. You can't go wrong.

Our Three Clark County Commissioners. Personified Ex-Lax .

(Nails and Lord Basil are often quite irritated with me, for example.)

You're right about some things roger, but not this. I don't get irritated with your comments, just disagree at times, and don't always post when I do disagree. Or agree for that matter. What were we talking about?

Anyway, I appreciate your posts.


Opinions are just that. I keep a bag of rock salt handy! :)

Speaking of Basil...

Where Art Thou o' Basil?

nailingit — June 30, 2013 at 9:22 p.m. ( | suggest removal

"Our Three Clark County Commissioners. Personified Ex-Lax."

Stuart aside! I'm 'running' off at the mouth again! Forgive!

Insert Benton!


Not on the backs of the environment!

He's a small man anyway.

nailingit — June 30, 2013 at 9:37 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Nail the whole thing with me was and still is the loss of many established business's downtown.These are real people that I have known for many years.That along with the gross mismanagement of our tax dollars and not bringing the whole LRT deal up for a vote of the people that would have had to pay for it.For to many years residents in Vancouver have sat back and let the old boy network run with every thing they wanted.I plead guilty for that also.We should never have allowed that to happen.I also enjoy the posts that I read here.I have learned some very interesting things.

timerick — June 30, 2013 at 9:44 p.m. ( | suggest removal

I wasn't aware goldenoldie has been trashing us in other blogs.

We are anonymous to a large degree, so no harm no foul I suppose. If true she's just continuing (for the most part) doing what she did here. Same ol' same ol'. The old gal has issues with most everyone. I hope her continued involvement with that terribly bigoted CC Waters blog will keep her interests satisfied, and her vitriol at bay. I think it's great she's posting on Lew's site. It's a good fit for her.

nailingit — June 30, 2013 at 9:53 p.m. ( | suggest removal

timerick. I understand. As I've said before, you folks who have considerable stakes involved should, and did I believe, have a strong voice at the table. It just seems these voices weren't speaking much until a few years ago. By then, with wheels in motion, it turned into a 'politicians saving their collective A's worried about getting booted next election fiasco.'

Led by, for the most part, loud, arrogant misinformed electorate with narrow views and tight wallets berating anything government.

Face Book proves this. Name after name of ignorant blowhards talking crap, you know who they are. Needless to say, yourself and roger do not fall into this category.

What really got me, late in the game, was being referred to the CRC "facts" site! (thanks roger:) A complete joke. After looking at that, I was convinced this would go through. Then again, I could never bet the NBA with any winning consistency. (lack of NBA Drug policy)

I believe if certain politico's weren't worried about next election this would have flown through.

But you know how hard our RW elected work at informing people how terrible government is.

Because if they don't, they won't be able to hold onto their lifelong dream of being a part of it.

I'm sure you folks made a few Baggers on Capital Hill happy.

If they bothered to notice it.

nailingit — June 30, 2013 at 10:42 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Not all Baggers Nail.I got a call from my brother this afternoon,he wants to buy me dinner.He is true to form D.He normally never strays.But he was against this from the start going back 6 or 7 years.

timerick — July 1, 2013 at 12:03 a.m. ( | suggest removal

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