Open forum, March 18-24



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That's for all those who are feeling like they should have a three day holiday after.

My mantra for the day; I will not mention that subject all day long!!! LOL LOL LOL {;))

JohnCasey — March 18, 2013 at 6:35 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Hopefully Fox will fall in line but don't count on it. Unless they do conservatives won't listen.

DOH! (_8(I)

**GOP: We’ve been lying all along**

*Boehner's admission that we don't really have a debt crisis reveals his party's ulterior, program-cutting motives*

I never thought I’d write these words, but here goes: thank you, John Boehner. Thank you, Mr. Speaker, for finally admitting on national television that all the fiscal cliffs, sequestrations and budget battles you’ve created are, indeed, artificially fabricated by ideologues and self-interested politicians and not the result of some imminent crisis that’s out of our control.

America owes this debt of gratitude to Boehner after he finally came clean on yesterday’s edition of ABC’s “This Week” and admitted that “we do not have an immediate debt crisis.” (His admission was followed up by Budget Committee Chairman Paul Ryan, who quickly echoed much the same sentiment on CBS’ Face the Nation).

In offering up such a stunningly honest admission, the GOP leader has put himself on record as agreeing with President Obama, who has previously acknowledged that demonstrable reality. But the big news here isn’t just about the politics of a Republican House Speaker tacitly admitting they agree with a Democratic president. It is also about a bigger admission revealing the fact that the GOP’s fiscal alarmism is not merely some natural reaction to reality, but a calculated means to other ideological ends.

Read more @

nailingit — March 18, 2013 at 9:58 a.m. ( | suggest removal

nailingit: Finally got around to getting a Roku and Netflix for the simple pleasure of watching House of Cards at your recommendation.


I am sure it is not all that far-fetched.

I have one episode to go and then the long wait for Season 2!

manthou — March 18, 2013 at 11:09 a.m. ( | suggest removal

manthou- Pretty addicting! The worst part is the wait!

holycrap- I posted this idiots' speech last week, waay tooo much to have it posted again!

It sounds like you listened to the whole load of..

..holy crapola!


nailingit — March 18, 2013 at 3:07 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Nails - Uh oh!! Look who's gearing up for Pres!!

roger — March 18, 2013 at 7:28 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Interesting observation from Elizabeth Warren - worker productivity has climbed, but their wages have gone almost nowhere.

roger — March 18, 2013 at 7:37 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Don't know what got all that airplane talk going last night. Army guys love the A10; nothing more impressive than to see it come almost to a halt in midair and then unload with that big cannon! The USAF tried to deactivate it back in the early 90's, and we went nuts - wanted to buy it for the Army. Most of those other jets flew too high and fast - but at least they've gotten better at targeting. But you left another plane out - this old girl can still unload more on target than almost anything else out there.

roger — March 18, 2013 at 7:57 p.m. ( | suggest removal

roger-*Don't know what got all that airplane talk going last night.*

I take it you didn't view the Metallica vid.

As of now Hillary looks unbeatable. History dictates an uphill battle for Dems to control the Presidency next Pres election, but who do the Republicans have , Sarah? The GOP is at war with itself and it won't be over anytime soon.

Or better yet this guy...

Interesting numbers with the minimum wage. I suggested awhile back we phase in a 12-14 hr min wage. Businesses will adjust and some of these RW business unemployment demons will be slayed.

But first conservatives need to adjust to the good news @ 9:58 this morning. This RW bubble is finally being popped by their own. I wish many on the right thought for themselves based in fact instead of punditry. It'll take months or longer for this latest news to settle in, and for some never will. The middle class needs to catch up for our economy to thrive.

The tea party has officially died.

What cutesy name will they give it next time?

How about Stingy Old Farts Screwing America?

to give it *status*, SOFA with an extra S! The **SS** for short!

nailingit — March 18, 2013 at 10:17 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Republicans have been playing a shell game for five years now. Conservatives need to wake up and change their thought process. These guys have been scamming them, using their fears, superstitions and bigotry as blinders to keep them (conservs) from the realities of today's world.

By the very definition, conservatives abhor change and most view progress as liberal sin that must be eradicated.

Yes, many of them are downright nuts and would be better off living in padded cells, yet they walk among us and retain American citizenship while enjoying the freedoms other Americans do.

Until we get all the FEMA death camp trailers refurbished I guess we'll just have to put up with them...

Until then..




(_8(I) Doh!

nailingit — March 18, 2013 at 10:33 p.m. ( | suggest removal

**Make no mistake, this is what Conservatives are all about.**

Shaping our society into a *Christian* Nation. Conservatives criticize Sharia law while incorporating their own brand. Sharia laws are liberal compared to these sick fanatics. Sharia law allows abortion up to 4 months.

Republican male lawmakers are constantly demanding control over a woman's body while conservative women just...lay there and take it. History will deem this crop of conservatives as comparable to sheep being led to the slaughter.

Where are the republican women of today that have the moral fiber to take a stand? It's always the left side of the aisle that fights for basic freedoms while their counterparts stay barefoot, bear children and say *yes em'*. (It would explain much of the conservative vitriol in the basement, acting out displaced anxiety for they dare not speak out *agin the men folk* in real life.

Conservatism is ruining our country. Thank *God* it's being .. phased out.

**North Dakota Abortion Ban Eyed By Lawmakers After Approving Nation's Harshest Restrictions**

Dr. Ted Kleiman, a Fargo pediatrician, said the law would set North Dakota back to "the stone age" of medicine.

"This is abhorrent in the highest degree," he said.

Efforts to pass personhood legislation in other states have failed. In Oklahoma, a measure this year that would have granted human embryos "all the rights, privileges and immunities available to other persons," was not given a hearing in a House committee and appears to be shelved for the legislative session.

North Dakota lawmakers are considering several bills this session that would restrict abortion. Dahl said that the legislation would ultimately impact medical care to women and families and allow no exceptions for rape or incest.

"A woman who has been sexually assaulted will be forced to carry a pregnancy to term, regardless of the nature of her assault," she said.

Sitte said she doesn't think women should abort pregnancies resulting from rape.

"Rape is a horrible crime. It is absolutely devastating," Sitte said. "But do we believe in capital punishment for those children?"

nailingit — March 18, 2013 at 11:12 p.m. ( | suggest removal

nailingit — March 18, 2013 at 11:12 p.m.

Make no mistake, Conservatism and social conservatism are two different and unrelated concepts. Many Social conservatives, such as Sam Nunn and Fred Phelps are democrats.

frobert — March 19, 2013 at 6:04 a.m. ( | suggest removal

nailingit @ 11:12 pm: Our state and others on the far right and left coasts will benefit from the brain drain that will occur when these middle-of-the-country states keep up their restrictive legislation.

manthou — March 19, 2013 at 6:48 a.m. ( | suggest removal

frobert — March 19, 2013 at 6:04 a.m.

mr_basil_seal — March 19, 2013 at 7:58 a.m. ( | suggest removal

ummm...yesterday a wrong way semi truck w/a driver who was drunk on 205 hits a 2002-2004 Honda Civic & this is a need for a new bridge? WTF?!? Who cares about the young woman who was hit in the vehicle- the bridge is more important? This is the worst reporting I have ever seen and the Facebook comments are dumb. Even though I cracked up at how people were tweeting while driving and the sarcasm of how it's the bridges fault. I guess you can't text and drive but you can tweet. How about how is the girl doing? It's not everyday that someone is driving a semi drunk going northbound in a Southbound lane. Couldn't even get that right either. I just can't believe these reporters are getting paid to say this junk. And for people to promote the CRC? That raises question- so how much was this semi truck driver or company paid to cause this?

andrecht — March 19, 2013 at 8:02 a.m. ( | suggest removal

*Conservatism and social conservatism are two different and unrelated concepts*

frobert — March 19, 2013 at 6:04 a.m.

One melds into the other to create the bizarre unholy alliance you and millions vote for each year. The republican party. From praying to angels to forcing some weird austerity based view grounded in bigotry and racism and preaching that government is evil, it doesn't matter.

Oddball folks such as yourself grab onto any Paulite constitution fad while your brethren are baptizing the dead. Neither one denouncing the other for being ridiculously absurd.

So you and your brethren continue in political madness and our system suffers for it because a good % such as yourself aren't taking matters seriously.

Kinda like your constant Phelps assertions which serve no purpose except some Limbaugh talking point. You're the last person to determine what is sound ideology.

*Conservatism and social conservatism are two different and unrelated concepts*

Not only are the two conjoined at the ass, but are in constant need of a good antidiarrheal medication.

nailingit — March 19, 2013 at 8:03 a.m. ( | suggest removal

manthou — March 19, 2013 at 6:48 a.m.

I hope so manthou. These guys won't accept their conservative message lost in November. I used to think retaking the House is impossible in 14', but I'm starting to believe otherwise.

I bet acts such as in N.D. are encouraging Hillary and other potential woman candidates to break the presidential glass ceiling. I hope so.

nailingit — March 19, 2013 at 8:12 a.m. ( | suggest removal

holycrapola — March 19, 2013 at 6:56 a.m.

Powerful message!

nailingit — March 19, 2013 at 8:14 a.m. ( | suggest removal

mr_basil_seal — March 19, 2013 at 7:58 a.m

Your point???

frobert — March 19, 2013 at 8:23 a.m. ( | suggest removal


nailingit — March 19, 2013 at 8:25 a.m. ( | suggest removal

frobert — March 19, 2013 at 8:23 a.m.

Due to your use of multiple logical fallacies, your 6:04 a.m post is pointless.

mr_basil_seal — March 19, 2013 at 8:43 a.m. ( | suggest removal

holycrapola — March 19, 2013 at 6:56 a.m

Good stuff, where is that clip from?

hawkeye — March 19, 2013 at 10:06 a.m. ( | suggest removal

mr_basil_seal — March 19, 2013 at 8:43 a.m.

You obviously missed the fact that I was responding to someone else's strawman fallacy.

frobert — March 19, 2013 at 10:18 a.m. ( | suggest removal

frobert — March 19, 2013 at 10:18 a.m

Perhaps you could elucidate; or maybe invoke [Poe's Law][1]


mr_basil_seal — March 19, 2013 at 10:31 a.m. ( | suggest removal

mr_basil_seal — March 19, 2013 at 8:43 a.m.

Additionally, you are making a claim that I posted logical fallacies, yet you do not back up your claim. Please respond with the fallacies you claim my post contains and than support your assertions.

frobert — March 19, 2013 at 10:32 a.m. ( | suggest removal

mr_basil_seal — March 19, 2013 at 10:31 a.m.

If you had read the post I was responding to, you should have divined my intent.

frobert — March 19, 2013 at 10:35 a.m. ( | suggest removal

frobert — March 19, 2013 at 10:35 a.m.



mr_basil_seal — March 19, 2013 at 10:48 a.m. ( | suggest removal

frobert — March 19, 2013 at 10:32 a.m.

[Index of Fallacies][1]


mr_basil_seal — March 19, 2013 at 10:51 a.m. ( | suggest removal

mr_basil_seal — March 19, 2013 at 10:51 a.m.

So, you are unwilling or unable to support your argument? I kind of figured that.

frobert — March 19, 2013 at 11:09 a.m. ( | suggest removal

holycrapola — March 19, 2013 at 6:56 a.m

Too bad DC, the rest of the elected and the majority doesn't get it.

ELISI — March 19, 2013 at 11:12 a.m. ( | suggest removal

frobert — March 19, 2013 at 11:09 a.m.

So you are claiming that an implied parody of what you claim was a strawman argument should have been readily understood as implied parody despite a history of making unsupported claims of logical fallacies?

Or are you just going for self-parodying?

mr_basil_seal — March 19, 2013 at 11:20 a.m. ( | suggest removal

andrecht — March 19, 2013 at 8:02 a.m.

The irony of it all is the fact that the very first comment on the FB side, spewing out the same BS about the need to replace the bridge with light rail to solve the traffic issues of I-205 is none other than the Democratic Representative for the 49th Legislative District, *Repruhsentitive Jim Moeller*. Not a word was said by him regarding the victim in this accident. **NOT A WORD!!!**

Luckily, she's alive and breathing with bumps and bruises. I wish her a speedy recovery (including the nightmarish memories of such an accident).

goldenoldie — March 19, 2013 at 11:50 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Frobert, if you'd just posted with the word "Hi" this morning, certain people would've found some way to take your comment and piecemeal it.

Sheesh. Some things never change!!!


goldenoldie — March 19, 2013 at 11:52 a.m. ( | suggest removal


*Maybe you're not sounding out the word correctly..




A blind or shutter made of a row of angled slats.


blind - shutter - sunblind


*Hope this helps you fro. Let's start with the basics. Other sources haven't worked. If you're playing us, props frobro!:))*



1. fallacy

2. fallacy of accident

3. fallacy of composition

4. fallacy of division

5. fallacy of the antecedent

6. fallacy of the consequent

7. affective fallacy

8. formal fallacy

9. genetic fallacy

10. intentional fallacy

11. material fallacy

12. naturalistic fallacy

13. pathetic fallacy

14. real fallacy

15. verbal fallacy

fal·la·cy noun \ˈfa-lə-sē\
plural fal·la·cies

Definition of FALLACY

a obsolete : guile, trickery

b : deceptive appearance : deception

a : a false or mistaken idea

b : erroneous character : erroneousness

: an often plausible argument using false or invalid inference

**See fallacy defined for English-language learners** »

**See fallacy defined for kids** »

Examples of FALLACY

1. The fallacy of their ideas about medicine soon became apparent.


Origin of FALLACY
Latin fallacia, from fallac-, fallax deceitful, from fallere to deceive
First Known Use: 14th century

Related to FALLACY


delusion, error, falsehood, falsity, hallucination, illusion, misbelief, misconception, myth, old wives' tale, untruth


truth, verity

Related Words

factoid; superstition; fiction, pretense (or pretence); distortion, inaccuracy, misapprehension, miscomprehension, misinterpretation, misjudgment, misperception, misunderstanding; misinformation, misknowledge, misreport, misrepresentation, misstatement; sophism, sophistry; fib, half-truth, lie, story, tale

Near Antonyms

accuracy, actuality, correctness, factuality, factualness, genuineness; credibility, honesty, trustworthiness, truthfulness, veracity


Other Logic Terms

**a posteriori**, connotation, corollary, inference, mutually exclusive, paradox, postulate, syllogism
Rhymes with FALLACY


**Learn More About FALLACY**

Thesaurus: All synonyms and antonyms for "fallacy"

Spanish-English Dictionary: Translation of "fallacy" Encyclopedia article about "fallacy"


Next Word in the Dictionary: fallacy of accident

Previous Word in the Dictionary: fallacious

All Words Near: fallacy

Seen & Heard

What made you want to look up fallacy?

A rogue Paulite chasing tails.

Please tell us where you read or heard it (including the quote, if possible).

Your point???

frobert — March 19, 2013 at 8:23 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal | Ignore User )


nailingit — March 19, 2013 at 8:25 a.m.

nailingit — March 19, 2013 at 12:35 p.m. ( | suggest removal

What a trip holycrap as I was just about to post the same thing! Another personal basement twilight zone moment.

A gripping letter!

nailingit — March 19, 2013 at 12:43 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Should Congress conduct a criminal investigation of events leading up to the Iraq war to see if putting members of the Bush Administration on trial for War Crimes of a Treasonous Nature is warranted?

We are doomed to repeat history if nothing changes in the *w*ar *a*ccountability *d*epartment.

Otherwise known as W.A.D. No doubt we've blown it.

And the right has the gall to pursue a ridiculous McCarthyism course about Benghazi.

nailingit — March 19, 2013 at 12:59 p.m. ( | suggest removal

We are doomed to repeat history if nothing changes in the war accountability department.

I feel the same way about the Obama administration's drone wars and the private little army at the White House's disposal aka the CIA.

Not sure why the R's haven't really, really pushed and dug on this. Maybe they want the same toys if/when they get the White House.

mrd — March 19, 2013 at 1:16 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Goldenoldie- ty
someone else understood what I was talking about. I do wish her a speedy recovery & I hope the people of Clark County down vote this new bridge just because of junk like this. It sickening what these "democraps" r doing & how idiotic our society is. Vancouver is slowly drifting into non existence bc no one has a backbone to really stand up to the fallacies.

andrecht — March 19, 2013 at 1:48 p.m. ( | suggest removal


You beat me to it. Thanks. I found it here:

langenthal — March 19, 2013 at 2 p.m. ( | suggest removal

On this the 10th anniversary of the Iraq war.

Outstanding documentary.

nailingit — March 19, 2013 at 2:09 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Holycrapola & Nailingit,I just read both the letters from Tomas Young and Ron Kovic.I can relate to both a little having served in Viet Nam and making it back alive after 2 tours.I was wounded also but no where near as bad as these 2 men.My nephew came home from Afganistan 3 years ago with both of legs missing from above the knee and half of his left hand is gone along with most of his groin.His first year was spent in hospitals and rehabilitation.He stayed in the Marines until this last year.He has stayed with us a couple of times in the past year and he seems to have adjusted to his new body.I am very proud of him he is curently competing in down hill mono skiing.All of us are different in how we respond to life changing events.My heart goes out to both these men.And I believe also that we need to end all these wars that only seem to benifit the wealthy.I don't think it matters if it is D or R thing as both sides seem to be guilty of sending us to battle in some foreign country.

timerick — March 19, 2013 at 2:14 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Prayers before county meetings? Great. No wonder this country's a mess, we're being led by people that talk to angels and spirits. "Good grief!" said Charlie Brown.

Too bad a Muslin isn't on the commission, I'd love to see Madore & Co dance around that one.

Why was Madore looking at the Humane Society's payroll? Do his customers look at his? Maybe they should. Might tell him he is personally making too much $$$ so they'll go elsewhere.

What if Madore told the Humane Society, that in his omnipotent opinion, the employees were overpaid, so the county wouldn't accept the fee increase? Would have been nice if the Humane Society could then tell him to stuff it-go build and run your own shelter.

mrd — March 19, 2013 at 2:28 p.m. ( | suggest removal

My heart goes out to both these men.And I believe also that we need to end all these wars that only seem to benifit the wealthy.I don't think it matters if it is D or R thing as both sides seem to be guilty of sending us to battle in some foreign country.

timerick — March 19, 2013 at 2:14 p.m.

Amen timerick. Hopefully we can learn from these costly mistakes.

nailingit — March 19, 2013 at 3:20 p.m. ( | suggest removal

mrd: I spent the morning watching David Madore blow holes in all the progress done by his predecessors who served on the SW Washington Behavioral Health Board. He wants to bring in an accountant to conduct a study of the mental health services provided by this Regional Support Network of multiple counties. An accountant is not an expert on mental health services, last time I checked. Problem is, this new model of combining multiple counties into one RSN has only been in effect a few months. He also wants to hire a lawyer for this board only. He thinks the Stoel Reeves consultant is too expensive (you get what you pay for in legal advice). He also kept introducing motions that the other two commissioners helped him clarify or pull back from. This guy will cost us more money in the long run.

I watched the Director of Columbia River Mental Health beg, literally beg (she called it such as it was) for increased funds for her providers. The acute cases have increased and she talked about a mentally ill person threatening this treatment center that they were showing up with a gun. I am grateful that I do not have a loved one who relies on community mental health support here, because it ain't pretty.

Honestly, watching Mielke and Madore (I call them affectionately Frick and Frack) operate is like being transported back to 1950's rural Indiana. Progress? Who the heck will want to move their business here? I don't think they are mean people, just stuck in a Disneyland world time warp.

manthou — March 19, 2013 at 4:07 p.m. ( | suggest removal

If I were Steve Stuart, I might actually convert to something interesting and controversial, just to see how diversity is truly embraced by his two cohorts.

I would.

Any ideas? Rastafarian Wicca, anyone?

manthou — March 19, 2013 at 4:15 p.m. ( | suggest removal

"just stuck in a Disneyland world time warp."

Mind if steal that line? It's good.

A conservative coming down on mental health services for the poor? Huh, hoodathunk? I wonder if a patient wandered in with an AK47 would change his mind? I doubt it, he'd probably rather spend the money on some elaborate, corporate-run security scheme.

mrd — March 19, 2013 at 4:18 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Congrats to Commissioners Mielke and Madore for voting to allow prayer before county meetings. Too bad it had to come to a vote for something which has been a tradition for many, many years in government at the higher level.

Now...maybe they all can get back to work and resolve issues which affect each and every one of us!!!

goldenoldie — March 19, 2013 at 5:07 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Any ideas? Rastafarian Wicca, anyone?

manthou — March 19, 2013 at 4:15 p.m.

I think you nailed it manthou! Too funny mon.


I just read the prayer article.

Does anyone know where DM attends church? I'm guessing it's one of our local evangelical covens.

Since he feels the need to stick his chin out about servicing religion and prayer *on our dime* then he should be compelled to answer any and all questions about his faith and the why & how he applies it to government.

How old is the earth Dave? The human race? Did woman really come from Adam's rib?

Do you believe Mormonism is a cult, and if so, why? Will you pray to Joseph Sm.....

can I call you Joe?

While he's at it he should produce his birth certificate. Some might start to question his citizenship.

Oh yeah, this applies to his sidekick frick also.

And you guys who voted this mess in are getting exactly what HE paid for. Remember that.

nailingit — March 19, 2013 at 5:11 p.m. ( | suggest removal

In honor of the Church of Marley:

manthou — March 19, 2013 at 5:11 p.m. ( | suggest removal

There we go again, nail. Looky. The time of our two last posts.

Didn't you have a Twilight Zone moment this week with holyc?

manthou — March 19, 2013 at 5:17 p.m. ( | suggest removal


I am SO glad that you watched March SWBH. I hope you can take the time to watch Feb meeting also. He was ready to question their database software program. He had no idea what he was talking about and thankfully staff were able to get him to back off. Now he comes back with wanting this assessment by Dale Jarvis and wants to hire an attorney. Why doesn't the C say anything about this? Did you notice how disruptive he is?

Unfortunately, CVTV doesn't cover the Wednesday BOCC meetings and that seems to be where DM introduces a lot of his ideas. However, all the meetings since January are available. You can watch that smarmy phony smile start to fade. I think it is important to watch how he gives his seal of approval to each issue/program.

He keeps saying how wonderful the county staff is but remember he said during the campaign that all employees should have to compete for their jobs. Also, he has acknowledged there is a lot of fear among county employees since January.

langenthal — March 19, 2013 at 5:43 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Manthou, where can I read more about this mental health issue and the Board that Frick (or is it Frack) now also questions? I love Frick and Frack, how very appropriate. Anything out there? Does he have ANY common sense left? Or is this just a question of him having to open his big mouth and trying to look as if he has anything important and real to add?

As to prayers for the meetings: welcome to 1950, boys and girls. Clark County going backwards as always. Maybe Frack was emboldened by the presence of Frick. Sigh, when is the next election so we can get rid of him? Or both finally?

luvithere — March 19, 2013 at 5:48 p.m. ( | suggest removal

I just got received a "one minute poll" phone call from KATU2 concerning CRC. Bridge with or without light rail, party affiliation, liberal or conservative, age etc.. Results tonight!

I want to thank a few conservatives who post here for helping me to decide about the CRC.

Thank you.

nailingit — March 19, 2013 at 5:54 p.m. ( | suggest removal

You know, I happened to think, maybe I've been too hard on some conservative men/politicians.

It's been written, [*The Skrow of lian tigni*] [edited text]"once conservative women have served their God given purpose/duty producing and raising children, they often become embittered and confused, many times morphing into a dominate physical/vocal force in many religious households" (and forums:).

Maybe some of these guys are under pressure from their better half or other family members to work religion into their workplace.

Cut em' some slack!

God knows what they're really praying for! :))

Ya gotta remember, conservatives are a different..well..breed.

nailingit — March 19, 2013 at 6:02 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Nailingit --- Part 1

I don't know if you remember our conversations back in August before the primary. I showed that Mr Transparency was the Chair of Ralph Reed's Washington Faith & Freedom Coalition. Did you ever hear the C talk about that? I had a conversation with Scott Campbell recently and he doesn't know who Ralph Reed is.

From Secretary of State site in August 2012.

Company Name: FAITH AND FREEDOM COALTION [sic - copied from site]

Governing Persons
Title Name Address
Chairman Madore, David 1400 NE 136th Avenue
Vancouver, WA
Director Peurasaari, Gary 1400 NE 136th Avenue
Vancouver, WA
Director Wentzel, Josephine 1400 NE 136th Avenue
Vancouver, WA

langenthal — March 19, 2013 at 6:14 p.m. ( | suggest removal

jacjak — March 19, 2013 at 6:30 p.m. ( | suggest removal

langenthal — March 19, 2013 at 6:14 p.m.

*I don't know if you remember our conversations back in August before the primary.*

I do remember. Has Abramoff hooked up with Reed again? :) What a couple of crooks. Many believe in guilt by association...

Has anyone asked Frack to open his books concerning his Chair responsibilities with Ralph Reed's Washington Faith & Freedom Coalition? I'm not implying anything would be wrong, but that's a lot of political pokers to have in the fire for one man/campaign to handle.

An ungodly amount.

His making a spectacle out of prayer could warrant questioning along these lines. He has made his faith a front and center public issue and should expect much scrutiny.

I have a feeling Scott Campbell now knows who Ralph Reed is! :)

nailingit — March 19, 2013 at 7:12 p.m. ( | suggest removal

luvithere: All the meetings are eventually posted on Clark Vancouver TV. Choose SW Washington Behavioral Health Governing Board. The March meeting isn't uploaded yet.
[link text][1]


langenthal: The morale in Clark County is low as it can go, I hear. I could sense it in Connie Mom-Chiing's voice over the phone and in everyone who bravely testified. Vanessa Gaston seemed more than agitated, too, but really pushing for the accountant, which puzzled me.

I keep thinking that Madore is one of those naifs who really doesn't believe that mental health issues are real. If we all were members of his Grace Foursquare Church in Camas, no one would be afflicted. A couple of years back, I got into it with his pal Mielke when he announced something to the effect: mentally ill people just need tough love. Wish it were that simple. Tell it to the families I served who were recovering from a child's suicide. I saved the email he sent me because it was so revealing: full of typos, run-ons and non-sequetors. He was hopping mad at me for challenging his idiot assertion with research-based treatment facts. How dare I. People who worked in Clark County couldn't do that to him or they would risk losing their jobs.

I saw people trying in vain to explain concepts to Madore today that are totally out of the realm of his world view and depth of understanding. Just like the CRC and Tiffany Couch: let me hire an accountant because that is all I know. It is good to save money, folks, but not on the backs of the vulnerable.

If I really, truly thought Mielke's prayer play was honestly about his concern for spreading diversity, I would soften a bit. it is not. It is his way of giving the religious finger to the kind of diversity he and Madore hate: marriage equality in our state and the families it helps build.

If I thought Mielke understood the power of a positive collective conscience to set the tone, which prayer can be....This guy doesn't have an original, smart thought in his pickled brain.

I think the Columbian ought to assign a Madore/Mielke beat to one reporter full time. They are joined at the hip anyway and are making decisions as one.

Grrrrr. Just look at that photo of all those white guys, grasping each others' shoulders as if in holier-than-thou solidarity.
Looks like the Screw Up Fairy paid a visit to Clark County and decided to stay.

manthou — March 19, 2013 at 7:25 p.m. ( | suggest removal

mr_basil_seal — March 19, 2013 at 11:20 a.m.

You still have not identified and supported your claim of logical fallacy.

I'm waiting, but I am guessing you cannot identify or support your false claim.

frobert — March 19, 2013 at 7:29 p.m. ( | suggest removal

nailingit — March 19, 2013 at 12:35 p.m.

We all know you can copy paste definitions, but since you have no clue as to its meaning it really doesn't matter.

frobert — March 19, 2013 at 7:55 p.m. ( | suggest removal

***And you all thought I was nuts not to trust DM. I told you there was something wrong with that picture. We still haven't seen the REAL motive.***

hawkeye — March 19, 2013 at 8:06 p.m. ( | suggest removal

LOL! Such matters of importance!

What should I say now...

...uhh..nanny nanny nanny goat. LOL!



nailingit — March 19, 2013 at 8:09 p.m. ( | suggest removal

hawk- It looks like it's him wanting to hold higher office to me. A position where he can influence lawmaking to engineer conservative social change.

We need to get this guy out next election.

nailingit — March 19, 2013 at 8:13 p.m. ( | suggest removal

hawkeye: I never thought you were nuts about anything you opined about on here. :)

I think we need to watch the guy closely and hold him accountable for serving everyone,not just the folks who voted for him.

I was reviewing his answers to the LifePac dot Org folks. Check out what he says about same sex marriage: **Same sex marriage is not legal for the same reasons that polygamous marriages are not. They undermine, corrupt and are incompatible with civilization.**

Whoa. Incompatible with civilization? Youwza.

Read more for fun:

[link text][1]


manthou — March 19, 2013 at 8:14 p.m. ( | suggest removal

nailingit: roger and I had a similar conversation a couple of years ago on here. This is about getting into government and mandating one religious point of view from within.

I truly think Madore and his ilk believe they are called by God to do this. It probably seals their mansion and jewels in heaven. Or somethin'

They have a recalcitrant bunch like us to overcome, though.

manthou — March 19, 2013 at 8:18 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Wow, Manthou, have not seen you so agitated/angry but totally understand why. I seem to have a similar background to you with solid grounding in MH issues and something like this also drives me batty. Lack of understanding, total disregard for science and research behind it, but maybe pray it away. Mielke....Dumb dumb dumb.

Couple it with his religious background and activism, no wonder Madore does what he did there. He got the perfect little peon in Mielke.

Hawk, I always understood why you had an issue with him (DM). I did, too. Reasons become clearer by the day.

Getting disgusting in the commish office. The smell gets worse by the day.

luvithere — March 19, 2013 at 8:22 p.m. ( | suggest removal

luvithere: Yeah, I let it out a bit too much tonight and I cannot even blame a good glass of wine. Maybe it was the sugary dessert.

I absolutely should stop watching the Frick and Frack show for my own health.

My apologies. I try to keep an open mind about Madore, and he keeps on disappointing me. I really do not think he is capable of seeing other viewpoints because he believes his way is God's way.

How can you argue with that?

manthou — March 19, 2013 at 8:35 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Manthou & Nailingit

I've lost two posts so I'll try to be very brief until I can get to better machine.

DM's name has recently been removed from Faith & Freedom listing.

I believe DM was with LifePoint Church in Vancouver during campaign.

Grace [Foursquare] Church in Camas is listed as his church in his resume on Clark Co site.

He has one high school in Anaheim, CA listed now on Clark Co site as only education but doesn't show any graduation. During campaign he showed only Davison HS in Davison,MI. I confirmed that he didn't graduate from there. He never attended college according to any of his various resumes including LinkedIn.

He has added TRINITY BROADCASTING NETWORK to his employment on Clark Co site. This never showed up before.

langenthal — March 19, 2013 at 8:41 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Interesting note I found: Bob Marley was baptized into Ethiopian Orthodoxies before he died in 1981. He was a Christian. The irony on here is funny.

His lyrics were about fighting for peace and equality...not about prayer.

So a person who is atheist can put all information on their sites about how they are part of organizations which have nothing to do with any affilates of Religion and I notice the amount of A** kissing on here of how "great" the person is. But if a person who is a firm believer of Religion has all information on their sites the person is horrible and is doing all of God's work. Really? that's just like saying someone is prejudice for not accepting gay marriage yet the person who says it is being prejudice themselves. And if you are a firm believer and love Marley music...ONE LOVE

a person who truly believes in GOD will accept those who do not believe and still hold their hand out to help anyone who needs it. A true believer.

andrecht — March 19, 2013 at 8:58 p.m. ( | suggest removal

langenthal: Maybe I have been watching too much Homeland and House of Cards, but I think David Madore could be a character on either of those series.

In other words, will we be surprised down the road? We will discover something that has been hidden from view?

Good for him for making it as far as he did without college. I thought he was an engineer.

manthou — March 19, 2013 at 8:59 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Who cares about same sex marriage, if people want it, they can have it. Stop shoving it down our throats no one really cares!! Let people be happy- if that's their lifestyle then let it happen. It's a popularity movement that started in Hollywood just to become cool and get a higher rank on the social status. Let them have it don't get your panties in a bunch about who doesn't like it. Just like Polygamy if a psycho wants to have a ton of wives do it, who cares. In the real world they are called PIMPs and those r da Bi*#$es & da h#*@S

andrecht — March 19, 2013 at 9:05 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Oh, andrecht, really. No one here is genuflecting to Marley. Well, maybe nailingit.....

And I have no problem with Christianity and religion. Just don't force it down my throat at government meetings, that's all.

People who hold office need to go out of their way to set aside their own biases and to be objective. I don't think Mr. Madore can do that.

I hope I am wrong.

manthou — March 19, 2013 at 9:06 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Good grief, andrecht.

manthou — March 19, 2013 at 9:08 p.m. ( | suggest removal

No I just thought it was cool about Marley. Loved his music.

What not allowed to say what I feel? LMFAO whatever

True don't shove stuff down peoples throats that goes all ways not just one. I totally understand that. Plus prayer before Government meetings has been going on for a long time. You don't have to listen to the prayers...damn I don't listen to them half of the time.

Been to an inauguration lately?

andrecht — March 19, 2013 at 9:13 p.m. ( | suggest removal

They have a recalcitrant bunch like us to overcome, though.

manthou — March 19, 2013 at 8:18 p.m.

Straight up manthou. God forbid we should become another Kansas or North Dakota or something. Shame on those who push their religious ideology from a government empowered pedestal.

The 4-Square group are hard core Pentecostal I believe. One of the most extreme religious groups out there.

I've heard the Baptists referred to as America's Taliban. On those terms the Pentecostal crowd might be Al-Qaeda!

Your link @ 8:14 bring his (DM) views regarding abortion in line with personhood bills such as the North Dakota Bill mentioned yesterday @ 11:12.

As you mentioned, when people believe God speaks to them, how can one deal with that?

I am really starting to believe some sort of religious litmus test should be required to hold public office.

But then they would all just lie when taking it! :))

*Oh, andrecht, really. No one here is genuflecting to Marley. Well, maybe nailingit.....*

Not Marley, Hendrix yes!...but not Marley. :)


langenthal- And the hits just keep on coming!!

**Trinity Broadcasting Network ‘funds owners’ exorbitant lifestyle’**

By Peter Beaumont, The Observer
Friday, March 23, 2012 13:20 EDT

The world’s largest Christian TV channel, the California-based Trinity Broadcasting Network, has become embroiled in a multimillion dollar financial scandal after members of the family that founded it alleged widespread embezzlement.

The claims – by Brittany Koper, whose grandfather Paul Crouch founded TBN, and by Joseph McVeigh, another family member – describe exorbitant spending on mansions in California, Tennessee and Florida, private jets and even a $100,000-mobile home to house the dogs of Crouch’s flamboyant wife, Janice.

The network, which claims to broadcast in every continent except the Antarctic and has 18,000 affiliates, was set up by Crouch in the 1970s and preaches a so-called “prosperity gospel” which promises material rewards to those who give generously.

Read more @

nailingit — March 19, 2013 at 9:19 p.m. ( | suggest removal

*He has added TRINITY BROADCASTING NETWORK to his employment on Clark Co site. This never showed up before.*

langenthal — March 19, 2013 at 8:41 p.m.

From less than a year ago. What attracted our new county commish to become associated with this mess? It can't be that lovable old Pat Robertson and his 700 Club. ;)

**[**The lawsuit alleges that Paul Crouch Sr. obtained a $50-million Global Express luxury jet for his personal use through a "sham loan," and that TBN funds paid for a $100,000 motor home for dogs owned by his wife, Janice Crouch, a network director.

The suit also alleges that TBN bought residences across the country for its directors under the pretext that they were "guest homes" or "church parsonages." The properties include mansions used by the Crouch family in Newport Beach; side-by-side mansions in Windermere, Fla.; and homes in Nashville; Miami; and Irving, Texas, according to the suit.

TBN directors received about $300,000 to $500,000 in meal expenses and the use of chauffeurs, and oversaw "fraudulent donation and kickback schemes involving third party 'ministries'" the network controlled, the suit claims.

The directors also misused funds to cover up sexual scandals, the suit claims.

The suit alleges that Brittany Koper refused to lie for TBN in a lawsuit brought against the network by a former employee, Horst Brandt, who claimed he was fired over age discrimination.

MacLeod said Brittany Koper was fired by Matthew Crouch, son of Paul Crouch Sr., after she submitted a memo to his father detailing her concerns about financial improprieties.

Network lawyers, for their part, said in a lawsuit last year that the Kopers used forged documents to embezzle funds to buy trucks, jewelry, a fishing boat, a motorcycle, a Lexus and life insurance, and gave McVeigh thousands of dollars without authorization.**]**

nailingit — March 19, 2013 at 9:35 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Manthou, don't apologize for getting passionate about certain things. When one sees a wrong, one should get passionate.

luvithere — March 20, 2013 at 5:28 a.m. ( | suggest removal

andrecht: I enjoy seeing your side of the tale here. Really. Didn't mean to seem to demean you. Mea culpa.

I want to make this clear: I am not anti-prayer or anti-religion. Just don't force it on us in a government meeting. I support strict separation of church and state, no matter what is technically "legal."

nailingit and langenthal: Interesting info on the Trinity Broadcast Network. Sometimes it pays to put some energy into investigating those local ties. Madore's campaign motto was Prosper and Thrive. Not a bad one on the surface, but there is some hidden handshake meaning in it that elicits "wink winks" from those in the know. Foster Gamble (of Proctor and Gamble), another rich guy with money and time to burn, has a big THRIVE movement going that is fascinating in its tenets: kinda Libertarian, kinda New Age mysticism.

I was so wrapped up in the Madore/Mielke show yesterday, that it completely escaped me what Harry Reid did in the Senate yesterday. Sad news for assault weapons ban and background checks.

manthou — March 20, 2013 at 6:23 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Very interesting discussion on the religious shenanigans of our County Comms! I especially liked Langenthal's post; it seems there's a need for a better check into Madore's background than has been done - is the religion aspect his real goal, and not the gov't efficiency he keeps preaching?

Nails - Just for clarification purposes, would you care to expound on your comment? I'd like to think it means you were paying attention to the discussions on the topic, and that we were able to get you to see the many problems with their plan.
"I want to thank a few conservatives who post here for helping me to decide about the CRC. Thank you." -- nailingit — March 19, 2013 at 5:54 p.m.

roger — March 20, 2013 at 6:41 a.m. ( | suggest removal

The New York Times has a fantastic investigative piece on Trinity Broadcasting that expands on what is mentioned above:

[link text][1]


manthou — March 20, 2013 at 6:52 a.m. ( | suggest removal

I catch a bit of the 700 Club every morning. It comes on at 0900, right after the news. It's part of my daily schedule.

I fiddle around up here (I'm in a loft), reading my mail, forums, etc. until 0700. I give Mrs. Drift a peck at that time as she heads off to work.

From 0700 to 0900 I read the Columbo (dead tree version) while watching the news and taking care of my morning business. Good Ol' Pat comes on at 0900. Coincidentally, the timed lighting over my plants comes on at the same time.

I tend my crop catching bits and pieces of the program.

The other morning they were ranting about the cannabis legalization in CO. and WA. Their main concern was the children (but of course). To paraphrase Terry:

"Can you imagine Pat... can you imagine those poor teachers? What will it be like to stand in front of a classroom full of stoned kids?"

Terry is a treasure, I'm tellin' ya. That kind of entertainment is gold.

At 1000 I switch the channel to the music station and go out back with my little dog and a fat joint. I stop at the beer fridge (I'm retired, I do what I want) on my way to the picnic table.

We spend the majority of the remainder of the day back there; the pup playing while I contemplate my place in the universe... if Terry wears a wig and why the hell Kristi doesn't get a nose job.

It's a simple existence.

Ooh, my! Look at the time... ;^)

Drift — March 20, 2013 at 6:55 a.m. ( | suggest removal

manthou — March 19, 2013 at 9:06 p.m.

Hey manthou....maybe you missed the little comment in the article about prayer and the county commissioners' meetings. The prayer will be conducted **"BEFORE"** the meeting. You can always step outside before the prayer session begins, then return to your seat at the appropriate time. Nobody is forcing you to join in. They're not going to chastise you if you step out. That's the fun of freedom of religion, you know!!!

luvithere — March 19, 2013 at 5:48 p.m.

It's hardly 1950, luvit. Just because prayer will be done before a county meeting, doesn't mean we're going backwards in time. I hate to break it to ya, but prayer will continue to be a major part of society for many generations to come. Heck, you could pray to the cockroach on the floor, crawling under your feet as you sit in at one of those meetings, lol.

goldenoldie — March 20, 2013 at 7:12 a.m. ( | suggest removal

roger: You wrote this at 6:41 am:

* it seems there's a need for a better check into Madore's background than has been done - is the religion aspect his real goal, and not the gov't efficiency he keeps preaching?

I have suspected this is Madore's motive all along: spreading his version of the gospel. When one is enmeshed in such a cultish fervor, one really believes it is the only way. Infiltrating government, business, education with this "gospel" based on such idiosyncratic thinking errors is a real threat.

No, I am not paranoid: just a skeptical citizen who thinks we should ask some hard questions rather than jumping on the Madore bandwagon.

manthou — March 20, 2013 at 7:18 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Regarding the mental health issue...thanks to a plethora of issues plaguing our society *including but not limited to* the control of us by Big Pharma and the medical industry who have either over prescribed or made clinical errors to the patients or their parents; corporations who have either polluted our land and air and those who have manufactured toxins which go into the soil with which our vegetables, fruit and livestock feed; the air we breathe; the products we use such as daily lab-created vitamins, fillers, minerals and sweeteners...our governing officials need to keep the funding to continue to care for what they've allowed in the first place.

goldenoldie — March 20, 2013 at 7:21 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Hi, goldie: Before the meetings, eh? Well, that's better news, I guess. Still, I think there are some weird motivations here.

I want to know what David Madore's "job" is at Trinity. C'mon, you have to admit it is an intriguing relationship that begs further investigation.

manthou — March 20, 2013 at 7:23 a.m. ( | suggest removal

To add to my comment at 7:21...we can also attribute problems of society such as war, continued increase in political division in government, poor economy, loss of jobs, home and family to the list of increasing mental health issues.

goldenoldie — March 20, 2013 at 7:25 a.m. ( | suggest removal

goldie: I could not agree more on your point at 7:21 am. Add MSG to that list.

Problem is, psychotropic medications can help tremendously for some. It is finding the right combination, which can be like buckshot for the brain: it impacts neurological functioning in a haphazard way, doing good in some areas and blowing damage in others.

Healthy nutrition, exercise, rest: cannot diminish that value.

manthou — March 20, 2013 at 7:27 a.m. ( | suggest removal

manthou — March 20, 2013 at 7:23 a.m.

Only for curiosity sake. I have no problem with the use of prayer before a meeting. In fact...if I were there, I'd join in...just as I would standing proudly before our US flag and recite the Pledge of Allegiance or listening to someone sing God Bless America. Regarding Madore...if in making his decisions when he votes on issues, he derives his conclusions on morals taught to him through his religious affiliation, he has that right. Remember this, manthou....

He was after all...elected by the people of Clark County. That tells me the majority doesn't have a problem with his religious affiliations.

goldenoldie — March 20, 2013 at 7:29 a.m. ( | suggest removal

manthou — March 20, 2013 at 7:27 a.m.

My dear fellow forum follower, I thank you for recognizing my post regarding what I truly believe is behind the majority of mental health issues these days...especially when it is coming from someone who has dedicated her life to helping those who need the help. And yes, MSG is one of those chemically-altered fillers. You know MSG is actually derived from a natural's actually a sodium(salt) of glutamic acid from naturally-occurring amino acids to be exact. The sad truth is...they've mimicked it in labratories. Here's a link with some beneficial reading worth taking the time to review:

goldenoldie — March 20, 2013 at 7:35 a.m. ( | suggest removal

roger- *Nails - Just for clarification purposes, would you care to expound on your comment? I'd like to think it means you were paying attention to the discussions on the topic, and that we were able to get you to see the many problems with their plan.*

"I want to thank a few conservatives.."

*and that we were able to get you to see*

Are you now copping to being a conservative? :) You can beat this! I quit smoking ciggs 8 years ago and understand bad habits can be broken.

To expound as requested, your post inspired a limerick. Take away what you will.

There once was a commish from Vantucket.

The system in place he did buck it

saying nay to electric trains

he used the broken brains

and to the environment he said f@&# it.

nailingit — March 20, 2013 at 7:38 a.m. ( | suggest removal


Really, truly I think prayer is powerful and valuable. When we let it creep over the church/state separation line (and that is what is happening) is a big red flag to me.

Madore, indeed, had the majority vote and won fair and square. That does not mean we shouldn't scrutinize him and his performance. Something about him smells fishy to me. When my gut tells me "Ugh" I usually pay attention. Sometimes my intuition is off. Sometimes it is not.

Trinity made a rotten tomatoes movie called The Omega Code in the late 90s: a way to introduce the "nonbelievers" to an apocalyptic vision of the future. In other words, join us or die with the rest of the sinners:

[link text][1]


manthou — March 20, 2013 at 7:39 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Andrect, you're on a roll lately and I couldn't agree more with your point about same-sex marriages. Why should there be a law about it in the first place??? Just let it happen and have the media stop trying to make it a big deal. It's not up to each and every one of us to decide what is best for the other guy. Their orientation is their business, not ours and certainly NOT the government's. We're taught from day one not to be judgmental about our fellow humans. Why is it society is so judgmental???

Being judgmental rubs off on all of us in one way or another. We all do it. We can deny it, but we do it.

goldenoldie — March 20, 2013 at 7:40 a.m. ( | suggest removal

You do realize that the use of the word Trinity doesn't necessarily associate Madore with the group you speak, right manthou?

For anybody who doesn't know, the Trinity is speaking of The Father, The Son and Holy Spirit in Christianity.

Enough of that for now.

goldenoldie — March 20, 2013 at 7:44 a.m. ( | suggest removal

holycrapola — March 20, 2013 at 7:36 a.m.

That last paragraph says it all.

goldenoldie — March 20, 2013 at 7:46 a.m. ( | suggest removal

nailingit at 7:38 am: :) LOL

manthou — March 20, 2013 at 7:48 a.m. ( | suggest removal

manthou — March 19, 2013 at 8:14 p.m.

I read DM's profile on that page you left the link for. This one really cracked me up.

14. A proposed casino off I-5 near Ridgefield is projected to be one of the largest in the nation. What is your position on the building of this casino?
***"Most states in America have laws that forbid casinos, and for good reasons. I side with those states for the same reasons and therefore oppose building casinos in our state"***

Does he not realize that Washington has over 140 casinos? Also, by Nevada standards, the proposed LaCenter casino would only be small to medium in size. 3000 Slots really isn't very many.

I also enjoyed the rant about gay marriage and polygamy. Seems to me that if they were both legal, they would counter-act each other in the reproductive department.

hawkeye — March 20, 2013 at 7:51 a.m. ( | suggest removal

manthou...have you read this, yet? It might be an interesting session:

goldenoldie — March 20, 2013 at 7:51 a.m. ( | suggest removal

goldie: We need that law so that the protections under it are actually enforced.

Without the law, there is no justice. Even with it, justice can get twisted.

Not everyone in the world is as magnanimous as you and andrecht to our same-sex couple neighbors.

manthou — March 20, 2013 at 7:51 a.m. ( | suggest removal

hawkeye, I don't thing Madore has to even think about the LaCenter Gaming Casino. I believe the Federal Judge has thrown it out in recent weeks. The other casinos...all tribal as well. Methinks he was carrying that NIMBY attitude in his comment.

goldenoldie — March 20, 2013 at 7:54 a.m. ( | suggest removal

goldie: No, I did not see that GMO forum. Thanks for sharing it. I may go.

holycrapola at 7:36 am: I agree with you all the way, brother. Amen. How did this fly so far under the press radar?

Hats off to Langenthal for bringing it up.

What is Madore's Trinity Broadcasting Network affiliation? C'mon Columbian: ask the questions because us lowly peons do not have the access you do. Madore is all about open records. Let's see his.

manthou — March 20, 2013 at 7:57 a.m. ( | suggest removal

On another note...regarding the Bus Rapid Transit issue...

If C-Tran would have gotten their act together before last November and put BRT to a vote without maintenance and operations of light rail, they would have had the taxpayers' support. Instead, a brainless group of advisers decided to bunch it all up as one for the ballot measure. Us voters allowed the first one yet not the second one. What's that tell ya???

goldenoldie — March 20, 2013 at 7:57 a.m. ( | suggest removal

To add...roger has pointed out the fact that there is no future plans of extension of light rail beyond Clark College, according to C-Tran...

So where's the beneficial aspect of bringing it to Clark College in the first place? What incentive is in downtown to attract folks from Portland? Who will pay for the electricity bill from light rail here in Vancouver?

If Oregon and Washington would have gotten their act together to redesign the ramps and to replace the current bridges with FOUR through lanes and two merging lanes (one lane dedicated to high capacity transit ending at Delta Park) and forget about a useless entire deck for bikes and pedestrians...just install a center lane...a design much like Glenn Jackson Bridge...they'd be able to use that $900,000.00 each state must come up with in order to get the current design on board...and we could easily afford a $1 toll each way to make up any difference, should there even be any. The bridges could be constructed to be structurally ready to handle light rail and there wouldn't be any height issues.

Furthermore, if there was a future need for light rail to our neck of the woods, they would already be readily equipped to incorporate that light rail lane in each direction TO and FROM Delta Park.

It's Common Sense...something lacking at the government level these days.

goldenoldie — March 20, 2013 at 8:08 a.m. ( | suggest removal

manthou — March 20, 2013 at 7:51 a.m.

You can thank the media, political grandstanding and open rallies and marches for bringing it to the attention of everyone.

I can see it now...

hetero couples will some day, have to go in the public spotlight in order to retain their rights.

goldenoldie — March 20, 2013 at 8:11 a.m. ( | suggest removal

frobert — March 19, 2013 at 7:29 p.m.

Learning is best done with active participation; so a Socratic hint.

There are three fallacies in your choices of examples.

And should we assume you agree with the Poe's Law (frobert — March 19, 2013 at 10:35 a.m.) criticism?; You've made no complaint about that.....

mr_basil_seal — March 20, 2013 at 8:18 a.m. ( | suggest removal

holycrap- Great version! I remember when Charlie Daniels came did this song in the late sixties or early seventies. Travis has some chops!

You inspired me to think of a southern country rock band I dug in the seventies. (and still do)

A great tune...

nailingit — March 20, 2013 at 8:26 a.m. ( | suggest removal

So a person who is atheist can put all information on their sites about how they are part of organizations which have nothing to do with any affilates of Religion and I notice the amount of A** kissing on here of how "great" the person is. But if a person who is a firm believer of Religion has all information on their sites the person is horrible and is doing all of God's work. Really? that's just like saying someone is prejudice for not accepting gay marriage yet the person who says it is being prejudice themselves. And if you are a firm believer and love Marley music...ONE LOVE

a person who truly believes in GOD will accept those who do not believe and still hold their hand out to help anyone who needs it. A true believer.

andrecht — March 19, 2013 at 8:58 p.m.

Wow, somewhere early in that first sentence I completely lost what you were trying to say.

Any chance of you recasting that paragraph and providing the missing examples?

mr_basil_seal — March 20, 2013 at 8:33 a.m. ( | suggest removal

*Andrect, you're on a roll lately and I couldn't agree more with your point about same-sex marriages. Why should there be a law about it in the first place??? Just let it happen and have the media stop trying to make it a big deal. It's not up to each and every one of us to decide what is best for the other guy. Their orientation is their business, not ours and certainly NOT the government's. ....*

goldenoldie — March 20, 2013 at 7:40 a.m.

Yeah, because that strategy worked so well for civil rights....

mr_basil_seal — March 20, 2013 at 8:45 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Another pesky issue that doesn't seem to be on the Big C's radar:

**The Clean Murray Budget Versus The Dirty Ryan Budget**
By Dan Weiss

The recently released Senate and House budget resolutions for fiscal year 2014 reflect diametrically opposed visions of American’s energy and climate futures. The Senate budget invests in clean energy technologies that reduce carbon pollution responsible for climate change. The House budget, on the other hand, ignores climate change and defunds clean energy technologies.

The proposed Senate budget resolution — “Foundation for Growth: Restoring the Promise of American Opportunity,” authored by Senate Budget Committee Chair Patty Murray (D-WA) — would boost the United States into the 21st century by investing in the clean energy industry, which will be a $1.9 trillion market from 2012 through 2018. In addition, the Senate resolution would attack the carbon pollution that is responsible for climate change.

Michael Linden, Director for Tax and Budget Policy at the Center for American Progress, noted that Sen. Murray’s overall budget “would promote immediate job creation, lay the foundations for future broad-based growth, and responsibly pursue deficit reduction.” The Murray budget’s funding proposals would also help address the fundamental challenges of clean energy development and slow climate change.
Meanwhile, the House budget resolution — “The Path to Prosperity: A Responsible, Balanced Budget,” written by House Budget Committee Chair Paul Ryan (R-WI) — would continue investment in the dirty fossil fuels of the past while disinvesting in clean energy. And it ignores the looming disruptive and expensive threat of climate change.

mr_basil_seal — March 20, 2013 at 9:26 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Poe's Law...

I'm on an email list for writing enthusiasts (imagine that). It was a while back I opened up a discussion about emoticons.

I questioned if they were in fact "cheating." That is, any storyteller worth their salt would make it plain should they be writing in a sarcastic, facetious, what-have-you fashion. And further, there are times when the writer may choose to leave that decision to the reader. "He can't be serious?!"

The general concensus was emoticon "shorthand" was fine for email lists and forums, but (obviously) had no place in a formal manuscript.

Most often when I use them it's in the style of putting a period at the end of a punch line. I still feel a tinge of guilt doing it though.

Aaah, yes... I see the Sun is breaking through the clouds. I do believe I'll go cut some flowers ;^)

Drift — March 20, 2013 at 9:45 a.m. ( | suggest removal

*A good write showcasing realities that progressives/liberals can hang their hat on. There's hope!*

**How to turn a state liberal**

Colorado's progressive miracle is a road map to a much brighter America. Here are 9 steps behind the transformation

For decades, this was a state whose electoral topography was reliable Republican and whose politics was dominated by an unholy coalition of cultural conservatives and oil and gas interests. In the 1980s and 1990s, it became the national conservative movement in a microcosmic petri dish, passing socially conservative constitutional amendments and a so-called Taxpayer Bill of Rights aimed at pulverizing the public sector.

Now, though, everything is shifting. In just a few years, Colorado is pioneering a Western version of pragmatic progressivism, one built on a much different political coalition than the one that made Colorado the conservative movement’s grand experiment.

Here are the nine ways the state has so quickly changed, and what this Colorado Miracle portends for America.

Read more @

nailingit — March 20, 2013 at 11:14 a.m. ( | suggest removal

nailingit: Great article by Sirota you posted.

Maybe instead of moving out of "Clarkansas" my hubby and I should consider moving TO Colorado. :)

manthou — March 20, 2013 at 11:37 a.m. ( | suggest removal

nailingit — March 20, 2013 at 7:38 a.m.,

I quit smoking 11 years ago. And no, I'm not claiming to be a conservative - and I don't recall Hawkeye and Timerick label themselves as such either. I asked a simple question, based on your comment "I want to thank a few conservatives who post here for helping me to decide about the CRC. Thank you." Was this a sincere statement? Your response is geared to David Madore, but he doesn't post here. Whatever. I suppose I should have known better than to expect a straight answer.

roger — March 20, 2013 at 12:25 p.m. ( | suggest removal

roger, the problem with a lot of people these days...they make decisions based on emotions rather than the financial and economical consequences, especially when it comes to issues such as the Columbia River Crossing. Later on, they're scratching their heads wondering...

Wuh happened??? Why are we paying so much taxes to the gubberment??? Must be the "................s' " (fill in the blank) fault.

goldenoldie — March 20, 2013 at 12:53 p.m. ( | suggest removal

mr_basil_seal — March 20, 2013 at 8:45 a.m.

Civil rights to this day are still a myth as far as I'm concerned. NOBODY has rights in this society unless they're highly paid elitists who rub elbows with their cohorts, Basil. Our government leads us to believe we're doing okay but we all know better. I'd bet if you gathered data in one workplace...any workplace, that women and anybody who is not Caucasian still make less than their coworkers.

Are you going to tell me the media hasn't had a negative impact on civil rights? Of anything, they've exacerbated the issues of attacks against our fellow humans.

goldenoldie — March 20, 2013 at 12:58 p.m. ( | suggest removal

manthou — March 20, 2013 at 7:18 a.m.,

Agreed. But I suppose my cynicism trumps your skepticism - I'm suspicious of the motives of most people in government; everyone gets in the game for some reason, and way too many are there to get something for themselves or someone behind the scene.

Light rail is a component of a bigger picture - The downtown redevelopment projects, which are geared toward turning Vancouver into a city. I prefer our sprawling suburb, and also believe the majority who live here share that opinion. But there's some big money to be made, and I believe the people who are already in position to do this are the ones who have Moeller, Burkman, Montague and Parker fronting for them, and that they're the ones who decided they'd rather have Leavitt than Pollard as Mayor. Benton, Mielke and others represent a different crowd - Who I can't say, though I used to think it was the local housing builders and developers. But now that the national builders seem to have taken over that market - ????

David Madore is more of an enigma - If his motivation is to shift the economic power in the city to the east side, then I'm all for it. His demand for the 192nd Ave bridge (which doesn't make a great deal of sense in the big transportation picture) would seem to suggest this, and would also support the housing builders (to explain Mielke wanting this bridge too). I suspect there's some money in his church crowd that he's representing. So - No, I don't buy into his altruistic "We must make sure the taxpayer dollar is being spent wisely" - and I really don't think he's there on an evangelical mission.

At the end of the day, they all worship the dollar.

roger — March 20, 2013 at 1:01 p.m. ( | suggest removal

roger — March 20, 2013 at 1:01 p.m

A big AMEN to that!!!

goldenoldie — March 20, 2013 at 1:06 p.m. ( | suggest removal

From Forbes, this dilly: Homeland Security purchased 1.6 billion rounds of ammo. Who do they expect to need it for?

[link text][1]


manthou — March 20, 2013 at 1:17 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Goldie you are right I don't think that the CRC is D or a R thing.I look at it from a money stand point and what it is going to accomplish.And at this point it looks to me that we have already wasted to much and are about to spend to much more to accomplish not what we need.I have said all along that a bridge is needed.But I would like to see a third bridge.At this point it could be either east or west of the I5.This could have done years ago when they started the road to nowhere down by Vancouver Lake Park.It was supposed to go across to hwy 30 but it was shot down by the enviromentalist's.

timerick — March 20, 2013 at 1:23 p.m. ( | suggest removal

roger, goldie, hawk, nail, frobert, all here: One thing I think we all agree on: We don't trust our elected officials to act in our best interests. It is a shame we have been programmed to be so skeptical, but lessons have been learned by all of us the hard way.

Back to my Forbes post: What do you all make of that enormous arsenal purchase by Homeland Security? Are they expecting a coup? Financial meltdown and unruly masses? What gives with that? According to the article, some of those bullets are hollow point and some are for snipers.

I thought our President was all for control of this stuff. Is he trying to keep it out of consumer hands?

I haven't a clue.

manthou — March 20, 2013 at 1:29 p.m. ( | suggest removal

*I quit smoking 11 years ago.*

Bravo! The negative aspects of smoking ciggs far outweigh the positive.

*And no, I'm not claiming to be a conservative - and I don't recall Hawkeye and Timerick label themselves as such either.*

Neither hawkeye nor timerick responded to my post targeting conservatives. The "we" in your response sparked mine. Having said that, lighten up! It was meant to be taken with some levity.

*I asked a simple question, based on your comment "I want to thank a few conservatives who post here for helping me to decide about the CRC. Thank you."*


*Was this a sincere statement?*


*Your response is geared to David Madore, but he doesn't post here.*

My response was geared to answer your question. Your thoughtful post inspired the limericist withinest me. And yes, I believe Dave no longer posts here.

*Whatever. I suppose I should have known better than to expect a straight answer.*

That's what I thought!




nailingit — March 20, 2013 at 2:16 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Google the topic and you'll see this started out on the so-called internet fringes. One site says Napolitano is going to start a coup against Pres Obama, and several say they're prepping for when we all riot once the economy collapses. Military Times attempts to explain the purchase, and notes their disappointment that a respectable magazine like Forbes picked up on and ran this without checking.

Of course, could this could be an attempt to allay our fears, and lull us into complacency????

roger — March 20, 2013 at 2:18 p.m. ( | suggest removal

*Are you going to tell me the media hasn't had a negative impact on civil rights? Of anything, they've exacerbated the issues of attacks against our fellow humans.*

goldenoldie — March 20, 2013 at 12:58 p.m.

I'd suggest a brief perusal of Time, Newsweek, Life, newspapers and TV from the mid 50's on had a significantly positive effect on the public perception of what 'separate but equal' looked like.

Wonder why there was no attempt to support the " hasn't had a negative impact on civil rights..." claim.

mr_basil_seal — March 20, 2013 at 2:20 p.m. ( | suggest removal

OK, Nails, let me rephrase. When KATU called you, did you give the CRC a thumbs up or the middle finger up?

Inquiring minds blah blah blah

roger — March 20, 2013 at 2:24 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Manthou- Couldn't agree more. Nope you didn't have anything demeaning whatsoever. I just speak my mind regardless. Enjoy your posts on here as well.

Goldenoldie- just wait ain't seen nuttin yet.

andrecht — March 20, 2013 at 2:34 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Love The Fetus, Hate The Child.
Love the Business, Hate the Worker
Love The Soldier, Hate The Vet.
Love Theocracy, Hate Democracy
Love America, Hate Americans.

***Just something I saw and wanted to share.***

And no, I don't think I would be considered a "conservative". However, I am conservative in some ways.

hawkeye — March 20, 2013 at 3:31 p.m. ( | suggest removal

manthou...I have three possible scenarios that I believe might be part of the reasoning of investing in ammunition by DHS -

1) Tension between Israel and Iran and possible US intervention

2) North Korea/South Korea/US Tensions (examples below)

3) US dollar continuing to lose value - possible food shortages, wage cuts, increased taxes, mandatory health care, et cetera, et cetera.

goldenoldie — March 20, 2013 at 3:43 p.m. ( | suggest removal

hawkeye — March 20, 2013 at 3:31 p.m.

So in retrospect, are you saying that Democrats hate the fetus, love the child (???); hate the business, love the worker; hate the soldier, love the vet; hate theocracy, love democracy; and hate America, love Americans???

just wonderin'

goldenoldie — March 20, 2013 at 3:53 p.m. ( | suggest removal

manthou — March 20, 2013 at 1:29 p.m. Don't buy it, it's already expired.

manthou- Right wing conspiracy bloggers were lighting this up a year ago. Just nonsense from the right (think NRA) trying to stoke fears of wars, civil unrest, etc. It feeds the wingnuts their fear Kool-aid and at the same time pumps up guns & ammo sales.

You really have to pick and choose with Forbes. Remember awhile back with this? These guys at Forbes are ridiculous and will promote just about anything anti Obama.

nailingit — March 20, 2013 at 4:14 p.m. ( | suggest removal

That just about sums it up golden!

Funny how some take what they read, hear from one of their own against the other side and it snowballs into somewhat....well it just reminds me again Hitler's saying...something like..Tell a lie, make it big enough, say it enough and long enough and others will believe it.
I truly wish people would seek out the other side (individual) and ask if that is how they feel instead of hand picking BS sayings or listen to what is spoon feed to them by others and the media.

Hawkeye, first off fetus, em both, Nope don't hate the business or the worker, business created the jobs, and a business needs the worker, as a consumer I need both as you and others do, LOVE the soldier and Vet...last I knew this is a republic...Nope don't hate America, disappointed at times with the way some things happen but hey, this is my country, I'll stand by her at all cost..Hate Americans? Nope...Hate is such a ugly word, if you hate, it will eat you up inside..then you'll die a lonely bitter old coot.

ELISI — March 20, 2013 at 4:14 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Manthou & Nailingit [from 3/19]

I've lost three posts so I'll try to be very brief until I can get to better machine.

DM's name has recently been removed from Faith & Freedom listing.
Governing Persons
Title Name Address
President Funes Wentzel, Josephine 14712 SE 29th Street
Secretary Mitchell, Krystal 14712 SE 29th Street
Officer Mikaele, Mike 14712 SE 29th Street

Mitchell is related to J Wentzel [aka Jaye Mitchell].
Mikaele is with Burning Bush Ministries in Vancouver according to other records.

I believe DM was with LifePoint Church in Vancouver during campaign.

Grace [Foursquare] Church in Camas is listed as his church in his resume on Clark Co site.

He has one high school in Anaheim, CA listed now on Clark Co site as only education but doesn't show any graduation. During campaign he showed only Davison HS in Davison, MI. I confirmed that he didn't graduate from there.

He never attended college according to any of his various resumes including LinkedIn.

He has added TRINITY BROADCASTING NETWORK to his employment on Clark Co site. This never showed up before. Previously, he showed only one job before US Digital.

He has added memberships in Toastmasters and Chamber of Commerce to his resume.

He lived here for 22 years yet he was not involved in any civic or community or educational organizations until after his campaign. I can’t find any involvement with Clark College or WSU or Library Foundation or even a mention that he was a Friend of the Library. [Please don’t tell me about the 30+ charities that he houses without rent.]

This is the Clark County site:

langenthal — March 20, 2013 at 4:28 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Looked through 8 pages of Google links on the 1.6 billion bullets story from Forbes, and in those 8 pages only found CNN as not being a, a blog, youtube, or right fringe sites. CNN traced the origin to Twitter which came from Gen. Jerry Curry, who writes for The Daily Caller, founded by Tucker Carlson. The original amount of bullets was 176,000, according to the CNN article, and purchased to be used for agent target. traced the story to a chain email from 'Fellowship of the Minds' blog, and gave it a Mostly False on the Truth-O-Meter because TSA does have a renewable 5 year contract w/ Minnesota-based ATK, an aerospace, defense and commercial products company, not to exceed 450 million bullets, and is used for agent training by all government agencies except Coast Guard.

Gotta love the internet...

jacjak — March 20, 2013 at 4:37 p.m. ( | suggest removal

goldenoldie — March 20, 2013 at 3:53 p.m


geeze talk about taking things to extreme

hawkeye — March 20, 2013 at 5 p.m. ( | suggest removal

hawkeye — March 20, 2013 at 5 p.m.

What's the matter, hawk? Did something I say bother you?

Extreme? Naw...just showing a different perspective. You know all too well that whatever a Repub thinks, a Dem will think in a contradictory fashion nine times out of ten.

goldenoldie — March 20, 2013 at 5:11 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Regarding Madore's religious affiliation...what's the diff??? He's made it known since way back in 2010 that he's a Christian. Why is that such a bad thing?

Because he may have never attended college...BFD! Does that make him less qualified to be a county commissioner than anybody else in our community?Have you ever thought he received his training initially with the US Navy??? According to a recent report on theReflector, he served in the U.S. Navy from 1970-74, was trained in nuclear power. According to LifePac. org, he was a licensed amateur radio operator who built his own equipment. In the US Navy, he was a nuclear trained electrician's mate at the age of 20. After that, he worked worked as a senior electronic engineer designing medical ultrasound imaging equipment, then went on and designed hard disk storage systems for personal computers before starting up his own company, AKA US Digital. So tell me this... what's wrong with a self-taught entrepreneur who is also an inventor...and has become wealthy in the process???

WTF??? Are you guys jealous of the man or something???

Good Lord...get a hobby, guys. You truly sound ridiculous!

goldenoldie — March 20, 2013 at 5:37 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Oh...I think I've found your missing link that you folks who are so nervous and haven't been able to figure...I think I've put my finger on it regarding what it is you guys are so uncomfortable with when it comes to David Madore. If I didn't know better, Methinks you guys are unnerved by the fact that he has a Christian outreach program...a ministry of sorts which is affiliated with US Digital.

It is my opinion that you folks who don't trust him think he's going to push his outreach program into politics...his special interest so to speak just because he's voted to allow prayer before county commissioner meetings and he's not afraid to say that he believes in God.'s an ugly sickness.

goldenoldie — March 20, 2013 at 5:52 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Yeah!!! Let's talk about Mayor Tim still working for his engineering firm, which contracts with TriMet, which will benefit tremendously if the CRC is approved, which Mayor Tim is one of the strongest proponents for.

And on that note, time to go eat dinner and watch some Bball. There are priorities, and the NCAA tourney is near the top.

Goldie - David Madore does have an agenda we haven't clearly ID'd yet. I'll draw a comparison with Rick Santorum - they talk the religious values games, but they've got a deeper interest in something tied to money.

roger — March 20, 2013 at 6:15 p.m. ( | suggest removal

mr_basil_seal — March 20, 2013 at 8:18 a.m.

I am still waiting for you to support your claim that my statement contained logical fallacies.

frobert — March 20, 2013 at 6:24 p.m. ( | suggest removal

goldenoldie — March 20, 2013 at 5:37 p.m

Well GO, I'll concede that Madore is of the Christian faith. BEING a Christian, that remains to be seen.

hawkeye — March 20, 2013 at 7:35 p.m. ( | suggest removal

**screed1/2** (not one half or 1/2, will 1/2 yeah.....1 of tw..but anyway

OK, Nails, let me rephrase. When KATU called you, did you give the CRC a thumbs up or the middle finger up?

roger, as you know there are many variables involved. With or without, new but without or new with, old without & tolls with or without, taxes without or wit...,

Then I was asked if I were conservative, moderate or liberal. Then my age. Then my party affiliation.

If I were a typically paranoid conservative it would have had me greasin' ma guns and lookin' out the peephole...

At times I felt like I was buying a new car..or leasing, with variable interest rates compounded yearly and so forth. All in all it is what it is.

I suppose I should have known better than to expect a straight answer.



nailingit — March 20, 2013 at 7:51 p.m. ( | suggest removal


No. I refuse to succumb to the spirit of Lucy.

did you give the CRC a thumbs up or the middle finger up?

The skinny...

I said that I was in favor of a new bridge with light rail and would be open to pay whatever tolls or fees within reason.

This is my reasoning...

I'm certainly far from wealthy and paying tolls/fees would hurt me as much as most folks.


I haven't lived in this area as long as most of you guys. We moved here (what is now several years) not only to be with family, but to be part of a growing community that cares about improving the now while providing a solid future for our children and community.

If I didn't care about the future of family and community it'd be easy to say no to any improvements, especially light rail as I most likely will never use it. (I can hear the conservative wrought commie collectivist charges now:)

But to move into a community and then take a stand against local improvements isn't me or my family's way. I believe investing in our future and community not only benefits those ahead and benefits the now, but it's the right thing to do. (I know...collectivist)

At my age, if I can't afford spending a few extra dollars to improve the here and now as well as the future of the community in which I live, than that's pretty pathetic imo, as well as extremely poor planning.

We can't afford not to invest. Not now with the Fed $$$ rollin' in.

Didn't the ex Cali Christian conservative activist Community County Commish rally people to vote down any and all tax increases to help our community? Fire, safety, education etc.

It's beyond sad in my opinion. Especially from someone who has benefitted so greatly from our communities resources.

I read some of these guys on face book and one or two in here and you'd think light rail will be the death of them. Whining and crying about this and the that..the sun n the moon n the stars....:)))

Anyway, I appreciate the roads, educational services, fire & safety, etc. and I understand people shouldn't expect a free ride. Although to talk to a conservative, they either take these things for granted or want to burn them because they no longer receive a personal benefit.

As I've said before, much of this anti everything is nothing but a bunch of stingy old farts who refuse to part with a dollar.

Even for their kids.

nailingit — March 20, 2013 at 7:52 p.m. ( | suggest removal

*much of this anti everything is nothing but a bunch of stingy old farts who refuse to part with a dollar.*

Much, but not all I might add. Some have real concerns with business affiliations and so forth.

Anyway, that's the way I feel. We should contribute and better the future for our kids and others to come, and do it where we live for starters.

And one or two basement conservatives did influence me somewhat, as well as many on the face book side.

It was one more wake up call never to end up as tight, small minded, and unrepentantly selfish as some of these folks have been acting. Some wear government austerity as a banner of pride, not understanding the ramifications of what they're endorsing. They enable corporations who end up laughing all the way to the bank while we bitch about spending a few bucks to improve the community we live in!


I do wonder what our world would be like without bias media influence.

Having said that, I'm sure some would start burning witches again...

nailingit — March 20, 2013 at 8:31 p.m. ( | suggest removal

speaking of *witch*..

Remember, this guy ran for president on the Republican ticket in 1988 as well as finished second in the Republican Iowa caucus.

Read his conservative 1988 platform sometime. No different than today's republican platform.

Until we get conservative ideology OUT of politics we'll always be subjected to it's derisive influence forever mocking America's constitutional principles and freedoms.

The faux hypocritical religiosity that permeates politics on the right is now the very thing that is tearing the party apart. From immigration to gay rights to abortion, people are taking the blinders off in record numbers.

Future elections have never looked brighter.

For starters, let's get some of the stupid out of politics and deal with reality.

I wonder if Madore has ever met the big kahuna Pat. Is he proud to be a part of this rubbish at TBN?

Hey Lou, since Madore has chosen this road, how about doing an expose on his religious beliefs?

My guess is he wouldn't do it as he would not see any benefit in doing so.

Not like ol' Pat does anyway.

To the tune of $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

nailingit — March 20, 2013 at 9 p.m. ( | suggest removal

*Sad news for assault weapons ban and background checks.*

manthou — March 20, 2013 at 6:23 a.m.

manthou- Sounds like this will be voted on as an amendment. Harry promised Feinstein she'll get a vote. If he doesn't follow through his feet should be held to the fire.

Significant changes to filibuster rules likely would have prevented this hold up and many others.

Don't lose faith. The public by and large support assault weapons ban. (as we used to have before Bush/republican majority let them expire) There's a few Dems worried about next election if they support this, (can we say term limits?) as well as every republican of course.

**Biden and the White House are 'still pushing' for assault weapons ban**

nailingit — March 20, 2013 at 9:24 p.m. ( | suggest removal

(Groan - A few simple words would have been sufficient)

Thank you, Nails. I figured you see the CRC project this way from a couple of other comments made - just thought it would be nice to have you say it.

You do realize there is no plan to extend LRT past Clark College? You can say plans can change, but if you do a little checking on the C-Tran website you'll see they're fully committed to BRT here in Clark - as was planned a few years ago (and just reconfirmed in 2012) by the SW WA RTC.

You do realize this bridge project, coupled with the other ones included in the State Dem's $10 billion Trans package, makes it very improbable that we'll be able to fight for another bridge over the Columbia in at least the next 30 years? We won't have the money!!! All of the current Seattle projects and the ones being planned are being paid for with 30-45 year bonds. So, Clark County will always face a roadblock getting south. Now, if this would cause people to not want to move here, I'd say great!!! But it won't. And as those lines on the roads during rush hour grow longer and longer - well - ????

Have you ever driven on the OR30 trucking bypass on Lombard where it crosses Interstate Ave? That's where the Yellow line crosses. This is a very busy street; keeping it clear is crucial for that community and for people driving to get to the St Johns Bridge. Well, we keep getting told that the Yellow line will be expanded to 8 runs per hour during rush hour times - the same time that road is busiest! There's no way. In case you haven't noticed, there is no formal agreement between TriMet and C-Tran covering service and costs - that won't come until much later. People who think we're getting a high capacity system that will remove lots of cars from the road will almost certainly be highly disappointed.

It's a good thing to plan for the future. But unless you can explain how this project will bring jobs to our side of the river in sufficient numbers to employ most of the people who currently commute to Oregon and the estimated influx of people, we've accomplished nothing. And if tolls to cross the bridge are in the amounts that the CRC tolling estimates suggest, I suspect a lot of people will find the cost of going to work in Oregon unacceptable or unaffordable. The first will move, while the latter will join the ranks of the unemployed.

You're an optimist - I get that. I'm a cynic; I want to see data before I believe something will work and is worth pursuing. And with the CRC, there is a whole lot of optimistic claims, but very little hard fact to back them.

roger — March 21, 2013 at 5:50 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Roger, you're sharing that concept of common sense again. You know that doesn't set well with those who want light rail. Their minds are set on the current design plan. It's wonderful that a certain poster here on the forum has the best interests of our community in their point of view and I send kudos their way for sharing their honest thoughts, but it's highly unlikely that you will be able to convince the person to change their mind. That my dear sir, is the roadblock we're facing with those promoting the current crossing plan.

At this point, rather than rehash what I believe is the common sense approach to the I-5 Bridge, I refer to my comment on March 20, 2013 at 8:08 a.m as an alternative plan which should have been accepted, given the fact that unemployment rates were still well over 8% in 2011 and the economy still hadn't recovered when the FEIS was signed.

goldenoldie — March 21, 2013 at 6:17 a.m. ( | suggest removal

hawkeye — March 20, 2013 at 7:35 p.m.

Let me be honest with you and the rest of the folks here on the forum in order to clear up any thoughts that might be floating around. I do not trust politicians. Madore is no exception. I ask the questions in a certain manner so that others will respond with their straightforward you just did with this post.

Hawkeye, I too am skeptical about Mr. Madore's intentions but in life, we are taught to trust those who present themselves as honest, hardworking individuals...but in the same sense, we are also taught to keep that keen eye and our ears open to anything which presents itself as anything but honest.

From what I have read (and I've been doing some serious digging) and observed, the guy has not shown anything that makes me think that he isn't on the up and up. He's worked hard and with honesty and integrity to become the success that he is and he makes it known that he thanks the good Lord above for guiding him and urges others to allow God into their lives. Some skeptics may believe that is a guise just to gain the acceptance of the Christians of our community. These skeptics also give rise to the notion that his intentions with religious involvement which benefits the community with alternative solutions is strictly a financial endeavor. This skeptic doesn't see it that way.

For the record, I haven't seen any evidence proving that he doesn't have the best interest of our county at heart and till he does, I will continue to support his work. Yeah, some of it truly cuts to the core with budget cut requests or refusal to add to the budget...but you've got to give the guy credit for running a business with no debt...a well-established business at that. Wouldn't it be nice if his business sense would guide our county to stay out of debt and we could have a county to be proud of???

goldenoldie — March 21, 2013 at 6:35 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Did anybody see this story?

And then read the comments? Our "friend" David thinks these people make just the right wage and deserve it. WHO THE HECK EARNS THIS? Especially in this economy. This guy is on a spending witch hunt and he approves this?

hawkeye — March 21, 2013 at 6:46 a.m. ( | suggest removal

frobert — March 20, 2013 at 6:24 p.m.

Tell us what drove your choice of examples; the support for your claim.

Then, you can match your 'rationale' with

mr_basil_seal — March 21, 2013 at 6:49 a.m. ( | suggest removal

hawkeye — March 21, 2013 at 6:46 a.m.

This should tell you that he supports the union contract. Remember hawk...unions look out for their members. They want only the best for them. Right about now, C-Tran couldn't afford a union walk out. They want the best overall performance picture for the best community support in order to gain support for upcoming project(s).

goldenoldie — March 21, 2013 at 6:57 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Also hawkeye...remember this that the promoters of the Columbia River Crossing currently have unions in support of the project (for reasons we really don't need to get into right now, even though we all know why). There are members of the C-Tran board who are in complete approval of the current project as well...the same board members or their supervisors (away from county government) who with the CRC project would definitely benefit financially, so it's only natural that they make the contract as sweet as possible. Of course this is just my little opinion.

goldenoldie — March 21, 2013 at 7:01 a.m. ( | suggest removal

mr_basil_seal — March 21, 2013 at 6:49 a.m.

You made the claim, now it is up to you to support it, but I am sure you can't.

I am still waiting...

frobert — March 21, 2013 at 7:24 a.m. ( | suggest removal

*(Groan - A few simple words would have been sufficient)*

roger — March 21, 2013 at 5:50 a.m.

Brevity doesn't seem to be a strong point for either one of us.

But if you add up comments between a couple just trying to figure out what a fallacy is, they pale in comparison. :)

This kind of childish behavior has kicked more than one of us to pro CRC. Trust me. You have a few that do your cause no favors.

nailingit — March 21, 2013 at 8:09 a.m. ( | suggest removal

roger- *This kind of childish behavior has kicked more than one of us to pro CRC. Trust me. You have a few that do your cause no favors.*

I decided not to include something but part of it got posted. I was going to criticize was of your followers for a *common sense* remark and decided not to give them the attention they so long for. Please strike last paragraph.

But I will say this, much of this confused conservative teabagger company this anti CRC crowd garners hurts your cause rather than help it.

*"Saying nay to electric trains, he used the broken brains..."*

I think I'll start a *truth in nonsense coalition*.

nailingit — March 21, 2013 at 8:19 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Roger, I see my comment to you this morning at 6:17 a.m. has just been proven to be quite accurate as exemplified by a certain reactionary comment shortly after. To think our fearless leaders in support of LRT share the same mentality, too.

Yeah...I think we need a major leadership overhaul in government. Maybe whipping with wet noodles is in store.

*Geez, they're good at brainwashing people!!!*

goldenoldie — March 21, 2013 at 9:04 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Good discussions on here lately, folks. I now will have to take Forbes off my "Trust" list of media sources. I do like to read opinion pieces from a variety of viewpoints, but Forbes is supposed to be fact-based mostly, with its opinions clearly marked. We all have to watch out for "content advertising" that is cropping up like flies on roadkill on legitimate media sites: ads that look like news stories.

goldie: Have you ever read the stuff that Foster "Thrive" Gamble is putting out there? It makes for fascinating reading and I can find myself picking out things he promotes and saying, "Yay." Then it veers to the weird and I run. I check back every so often to see what he has added. Smart, smart well-educated guy who knew nothing but wealth and privilege all his life. He and his wife present very well in video. They have the time and money to get their opinion out there on their own and they have done so in a polished, classy manner. I am having trouble pinpointing his politics: Libertarian with a pinch of mysticism? He is not crazy, just passionate.

What bothers me most about Madore is his autocratic style. Couple that with a narrow world view and you get a leader who doesn't change his mind or show flexibility when faced with a diverse constituency. I guess there are lots of politicians who fit that description. He bears watching more than seasoned policians because his lack of regard for policy, law and protocol will cost us all plenty. He is used to calling the shots without having to collaborate or consult with anyone else.

Personally, autocratic leaders and I part ways quickly. I prefer a collaborative, consultative style, someone who recognizes that others bring good ideas to the table, too.

manthou — March 21, 2013 at 9:36 a.m. ( | suggest removal

mr_basil_seal — March 21, 2013 at 9:32 a.m.

Please walk us through how any of those fallacies apply to my statement. I made no claim alluding to all, or even most democrats being social conservative, simply that some are, therefore no logical fallacy is implicit. You made the claim of logical fallacy, it is up to you to support it, and you haven't done so.

frobert — March 21, 2013 at 9:39 a.m. ( | suggest removal

I do not like The Seattle Times because they are slow to make deserved corrections to their inaccuracies, imbalance, and lack of fairness. Their editors are arrogant and emboldened by the anti-slapp laws that were designed to protect the little guy's free speech, but instead gives them a license to harass and lie. The truth often gets left on the Seattle Times' cutting room floor because to include it would soften the sensationalism they need to stay alive. This is one newspaper I hope fails because it has failed the public trust time and again.

They do have some good journalists left in their stable, though, and this interactive budget toy they published is deserving of praise. It is educational and fun. Try it out today when you get the chance and see how you would balance the state budget. I can tell you it ain't easy:

[link text][1]


manthou — March 21, 2013 at 9:46 a.m. ( | suggest removal

**37 percent of people completely lost** - Mark Morford

Do you believe in angels? Forty-five percent of Americans do. In fact, roughly 48 percent – Republicans and Democrats alike – believe in some form of creationism. A hilariously large percent of terrified right-wingers are convinced Obama is soon going to take away all their guns, so when the Newtown shooting happened and 20 young children were massacred due to America’s fetish for, obsession with and addiction to firearms, violence and fear, they bought more bullets. Because obviously.

In sum and all averaged out, it’s safe to say about 37 percent of Americans are just are not very bright. Or rather, quite shockingly dumb. Perhaps beyond reach. Perhaps beyond hope or redemption. Perhaps beyond caring about anything they have to say in the public sphere ever again. Sorry, Kansas.

Did you frown at that last paragraph? Was it a terribly elitist and unkind thing to say? Sort of. Probably. But I’m not sure it matters, because none of those people are reading this column right now, or any column for that matter, because reading anything even remotely complex or analytical is something only 42 percent of the population enjoy doing on a regular basis, which is why most TV shows, all reality shows, many major media blogs and all of Fox News is scripted for a 5th-grade education/attention span. OMG LOL kittens! 19 babies having a worse day than you. WTF is up with Justin Timberlake’s hair?!?

mr_basil_seal — March 21, 2013 at 9:53 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Oops, looks like The Seattle Times conveniently left out a critical piece of the budget in their fun and interactive toy:

[link text][1]


Axe my kudos to them in my previous post.

manthou — March 21, 2013 at 9:57 a.m. ( | suggest removal

hawkeye — March 21, 2013 at 6:46 a.m.

Madore's last line of his FB post makes me think he is not approving of the contract as much as using the information to point out to the private sector that they are the ones paying for all those benefits. Division, flavored by envy, still seems to be an effective motivator, based on the flood of replies to his post.

jacjak — March 21, 2013 at 10:09 a.m. ( | suggest removal

mr_basil_seal — March 21, 2013 at 9:48 a.m.

You still haven't proven your point, are you maintaining that these people are not democrats? or not socially conservative? I am still waiting for you to prove or even attempt to prove that any of these logical fallacies applies to my statement.

The very fact that you are claiming that my statements contain logical fallacies and refuse to support your claim is a logical fallacy.

frobert — March 21, 2013 at 10:28 a.m. ( | suggest removal

frobert — March 21, 2013 at 10:28 a.m

As mentioned days ago; your examples.....

I'd posit that the obtuseness with which you are pursuing your line of defense is rather indicative of the failure in your attempts to make a substantive argument.

mr_basil_seal — March 21, 2013 at 10:33 a.m. ( | suggest removal

My 90-year-old aunt gifted me a subscription to _The Week_. I find it informative. Many of the articles offer opinions from both ends of the political spectrum.

No, I've no financial/professional interest in the magazine. I simply enjoy the contents therein. It's great for reading while soaking in the Jacuzzi. Edumacating, too.

Drift — March 21, 2013 at 10:33 a.m. ( | suggest removal

mr_basil_seal — March 21, 2013 at 10:33 a.m.

My argument was clear, concise and pretty much irrefutable, your argument is, well pointless. my original point was that one does not have to be conservative to be socially conservative and the two are unrelated. Your argument that I used logical fallacies is still unsupported.

frobert — March 21, 2013 at 11:18 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Just to clear things up a bit.Madore, Mielke and Connie Jo Freeman from Washougal voted no on the contract for C-Tran.Also Nails I respect your feeling on the CRC.I am all for a bridge.I would like it to be a 3rd bridge but I don't think that will happen in my life time.I just do not agree with light rail.In my opinon it will not serve the people they say it will and for me the cost is just to much for what we will recieve.Also the business's that it will disrupt and displace are not worth it for me.I admit I have a dog in this fight as I am a half block from the north bound track.And I do not want my business disrupted either.For me I don't look at this as either conservative or liberal.For me it just doe's not make any sense for what we would get.

timerick — March 21, 2013 at 11:27 a.m. ( | suggest removal

frobert — March 21, 2013 at 11:18 a.m.

" *Many Social conservatives, such as Sam Nunn and Fred Phelps are democrats.*"

Two is not "(m)any";

your use of Phelps is not completely accurate as his social conservatism is essentially a single issue that doesn't encompass the panoply of issues under that umbrella;

neither are really active Democrats (which renders up echoes of your claims of Lincoln and King as typical Republicans);

nor do either hold typical, defining, positions that specifically point to being 'big D' democrats. Nunn is more typical of the Reagan era 'Southern' strategy.

Also, your examples are more exceptions than the rule; perhaps that is why you had to use only two.

mr_basil_seal — March 21, 2013 at 11:42 a.m. ( | suggest removal

nailingit — March 21, 2013 at 8:09 a.m.,

"Brevity doesn't seem to be a strong point for either one of us." Just thought it was worth repeating. I was going to stretch this out, but your follow on line can't be topped - in my opinion, a Basement Gem of an observation. Kudos, Sir.

RE: Those that hurt the anti-CRC cause. Once upon a time I used to challenge the notion that LRT would bring all the Portland criminal element here (we have plenty of our own lowlifers who will be quite happy to protect their turf), or that it's a Socialist plot (it's actually an environmentalist plot). But I quit about the time the pro-side started in with their " a Cascadia Subduction Zone 9.0 earthquake is coming any day and will destroy the entire Western world if we don't replace this bridge immendiately" mantra. And all these feel good comments about things like "I just can't wait until I can ride my bike to the MAX and then ride to the Zoo and walk around and feed all the bunnies and pat the cute little bears and (interject my "I hope they eat your blankety blank blank)." Lady, there are 60,000 of us who'll pay tolls to get to work so you can go play? And when I found out that C-Tran's "interstate commuter rep" on their volunteer council is a prime candidate for the short bus - well.... Anyhow - enough of this rant. There are some real winners on both sides of this discussion.

roger — March 21, 2013 at 11:57 a.m. ( | suggest removal

mr_basil_seal — March 21, 2013 at 11:42 a.m.

At least you finally made an argument, but it was a weak one. I gave two examples, I could go to the list of blue dog democrats and give more, but that is not the point. I never claimed that the trait was present in the majority of democrats (that would have been a logical fallacy), I merely stated that democrats can be socially conservative.

You made an argument against my position, but you have still failed to support your claim of logical fallacy, I'm still waiting.

frobert — March 21, 2013 at 12:25 p.m. ( | suggest removal

...*when I found out that C-Tran's "interstate commuter rep" on their volunteer council is a prime candidate for the short bus -*....

roger — March 21, 2013 at 11:57 a.m.

That is supposed to be an argument in support of your position?


BTW: "Keep it clean."

mr_basil_seal — March 21, 2013 at 12:25 p.m. ( | suggest removal


I checked your magazine, and this Slate article it linked to was pretty good reading.

We had Thai stick that was probably like what people complain about with the potency being too much nowadays - A couple of pinches in the one-hitter and it's kick back and zone out time. Stupid crap like Hogan's Heroes became hilarious - though I suspect being unable to get up and turn the channel had something to do with this. (The TV remote is one of the greatest 20th Century inventions.)

I'm disappointed that the good Sativa strains are gone - I can't accept that some good soul in Panama isn't still growing my favorite red bud, or that Oaxacan Motorized Mexican is gone forever - only to be remembered by old guys sitting around talking about the good old days.

And what's with these silly new names? Tangerine Dragon? Super Lemon Haze? White Dawg? Blueberry Cheesecake? I don't know about you Left Coasters, but back in my old East Coast stomping grounds someone selling weed with names like that would have been in serious trouble.

roger — March 21, 2013 at 12:33 p.m. ( | suggest removal

*I merely stated that democrats can be socially conservative.*

frobert — March 21, 2013 at 12:25 p.m.

Actually, your claim was:
" Many Social conservatives, such as Sam Nunn and Fred Phelps are democrats."

frobert — March 19, 2013 at 6:04 a.m

Might also note that "I could go to the list of blue dog democrats and give more" would generate a list of about a dozen; hardly "many" and one would note a shrinking amount -indicative that 'social conservative' is not really a Democratic Party trait.

And, if you could have gone to that list, why didn't you as opposed to attempting to equate Phelps with those few social conservative and elected Democrats?

mr_basil_seal — March 21, 2013 at 12:33 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Lord Basil - Was blankety blank blank OK with you?

roger — March 21, 2013 at 12:45 p.m. ( | suggest removal

*Also Nails I respect your feeling on the CRC.I am all for a bridge.I would like it to be a 3rd bridge but I don't think that will happen in my life time.I just do not agree with light rail*

Thanks timerick. Before we moved to Vancouver we were eleven years removed from any American community. It's good to be home and have the opportunity to support local causes.

You view the CRC through a lens I'm not able to look through and your sharing is appreciated.

Just curious, would you support light rail if your business was either not affected or LR possibly seen as a + for your business?

From what I can garner I agree with your assessment about a third bridge, yet many put it on the table as a viable alternative.

As far as the politics go, they come with any territory that involves allocating government expenditure, especially since 2008. When one party wants government so small they can *drown it in a bathtub* and the other believes in government investment, ideological heads are going to clash. On some level I think it's a good thing in that drives conversation to scrutinize facts and such. Until things jump off tracks with hysterical narratives which blow up realities on both sides of the aisle and issue. From crime & quakes to our very existence being threatened.

I think we need calm voices on this. You and for the most part roger and a couple on facebook offer reasoned intelligent views and they are appreciated.


roger- I was keying this post on text edit and when ready to post I saw yours.

Honest, I wasn't sucking up saying your views are reasoned and appreciated. :))

I see we're on the same page regarding "fallacies", (oh God I've done it now!)

BTW, I've got a strain of "*Tiny Bomb*" that really kicks some tail. Quite medicinal for body and psych!

nailingit — March 21, 2013 at 12:55 p.m. ( | suggest removal

roger — March 21, 2013 at 12:45 p.m

**Keep it clean**. Controversial topics occasionally prompt emotional responses, and we love to see energetic debate and vigorous discussion. But before you wade into those conversations, keep a few things in mind. Don’t use profanity (including alternate characters to mask swear words), obscenities, personal attacks, libel, defamation or hate speech. Steer clear of name calling and posting anything that can be interpreted as threatening, harassing, obscene, pornographic, sexist or racist. Derogatory use of sexual orientation, race, age, gender, religion, nationality, disability and so on is not allowed.

mr_basil_seal — March 21, 2013 at 12:58 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Yes Your Lordship.

Is Matt back in town? He needs to get over to the facebook side and clean that place up! My comment was tame in comparison to many these days. Hmmm... Is it possible to read harassment and derogatory comments into the exchanges between you and frobert? Just wondering.

Nails - I don't take offense when you admit I'm right. (At least, that's how I choose to interpret the one comment.)

"Tiny Bomb"? Really? Sounds more like a name for a shot of Wild Turkey to me - goes down smooth and easy, and then explodes in the belly and the warmth rushes up to the brain.

roger — March 21, 2013 at 1:17 p.m. ( | suggest removal

*My comment was tame in comparison* ...

*Is it possible to read harassment and derogatory comments into the exchanges between*...

roger — March 21, 2013 at 1:17 p.m.

Seems I've heard that those defenses before, but not usually amongst adults.

mr_basil_seal — March 21, 2013 at 1:26 p.m. ( | suggest removal

*Nails - I don't take offense when you admit I'm right. (At least, that's how I choose to interpret the one comment.)*

That's what she said!

*goes down smooth and easy, and then explodes in the belly and the warmth rushes up to the brain.*

Not a bad assessment of Tiny Bomb. But it's more of a top down thing, while giving a great body high.

You're taking me back in time talking Panama Red. Fairly rare we came by it in the desert but come by it we did...

There is so much more out there than when we were kids. I'd compare the bud I get here as on par or better than the best Amsterdam has to offer. If only we would catch up in the hash department, but that's another story...

Man, a little while ago it hailed like hell here!

nailingit — March 21, 2013 at 1:33 p.m. ( | suggest removal

mr_basil_seal — March 21, 2013 at 12:33 p.m.

Your argument does not counter my original post, I claimed that social conservatives can be from either major party. You are however, attempting to divert the conversation. You have not supported your claim that my original post logical fallacies. I am still waiting.

frobert — March 21, 2013 at 1:46 p.m. ( | suggest removal


We were situated in some sort of pipeline back in the central PA town I lived in - there was a lot of the best stuff that my friends and relatives in the South never saw. 'Lumbo Gold was common, and we also saw a fair amount of the red bud and Jamaican. We had a lot of long haul truckers who lived there, and I suspected they were responsible. And my buddy whose uncle ran the Spectrum (and gave us free tickets for all the good concerts I saw there) also hooked us up with someone who networked with the Turkish merchant marine types - we got good Afghan and Lebanese hash from them. When I moved to AZ I saw good Mex for a year or so, and then everything dried up. I sort of recall a paraquat scare or something - I know I quit about '78 or '79. Prices went sky high and feeding the family came first. And then came Uncle Sam and all that stuff was a major NoGo. But it's still fun to look back on.

roger — March 21, 2013 at 1:53 p.m. ( | suggest removal

It is fun to look back on. Sounds like you had great connects. We used to get hash almost as much as pot back in the day, to include Afghan and Red Lebanese. Black Primo was the bomb. There's nothing like the flavor/taste of some well bred hash imo, but trust me, the high end hash that comes out of Europe is like no other, although for a hefty price.

To go the Nederland coffee shop route you can get vintage potency for vintage prices. (nothing wrong with that) But the stuff that keeps you coming back goes for 45-100 euro per gram. (don't know current rate but $60-$120 ballpark)

nailingit — March 21, 2013 at 2:31 p.m. ( | suggest removal

I might add only small % of shops carry the high end hash and at times have availability problems in retail. And this is Amsterdam!

I found the 45-65 euro range the best. Money doesn't always equate with the absolute best quality and it's especially true in the Nederland pot/hash market.

As we nurture this new found freedom we have in Vancouver, I'm hoping a few stumble on to whatever the hell magic it is they're doing over there.

Future entrepreneurs in a legal Vancouver retail pot/hash market could really capitalize (assuming potency limitations won't exist) in a niche market such as this.

Medicinally it's a no brainer. One or two hits and whatever was ailing you is ... what were we talking about? ;)

Sometimes I still can't wrap my head around rec use being legal as I was programmed for so many years. It's wonderful that we can openly speak about the merits of using legal medical *and* recreational marijuana.

It's going to take awhile for much of the associated stigma to wain, but wain it will.

Will employers ever get caught up with the times?

It might take a federal mandate!

nailingit — March 21, 2013 at 3:01 p.m. ( | suggest removal

manthou — March 21, 2013 at 9:36 a.m.

Thanks for the information on Foster Gamble's Thrive. Definitely worth my time to check out further, but I'll heed your warnings about things that make you turn the other way. Just from the face page on the website, it reminds me of something I watched last night on OPB...a fantastic show on species which were nearly extinct and how wonderful, wonderful people globally are working together to try to save these species including Sumatran rhinos, extremely rare turtles which there were only two left in the world and Spix's Macaw...a beautiful sky-blue macaw which no longer live in the wild, sad to say. It was truly a fascinating show. The episode was from the series entitled "Nature" and was "The Loneliest Animals" which will repeat at 1:00 am on Friday.

goldenoldie — March 21, 2013 at 4:34 p.m. ( | suggest removal

mr_basil_seal — March 21, 2013 at 12:25 p.m.

With what has been written for quite some time here on the forum...

Don't you think you're a bit late on your suggestion? roger's comment was mild compared to what others have been writing.

goldenoldie — March 21, 2013 at 4:40 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Just a heads up to the party folks of the forum who indulge in sharing music videos which yes, are fun to watch...

They're screwing up Adobe Flash Player on some systems, making folks wait a lot longer than they should...just to scroll down and read the comments.

goldenoldie — March 21, 2013 at 4:44 p.m. ( | suggest removal

HAHA people who say to please provide examples to what is expressed as an opinion. Nice try Mr. Basil seal

andrecht — March 21, 2013 at 4:46 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Hawkeye and Jacjak,

I looked at the C-Tran bennies Madore posted. The medical and dental are better than anything I've seen outside of Active Duty, and the vacation and sick time is decent too. Yeah, I think Madore was being a bit sarcastic with his comment. "We appreciate them but seeing as how what they get is better than the private sector...." However - There's a problem with his argument. He needs to compare their pay and benefits to TriMet - that's who C-Tran needs to approximate if we're to keep good drivers here.

roger — March 21, 2013 at 4:50 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Black Primo? Was that the stuff with the little white streaks we called Nepalese Temple Hash? A buddy in the Navy returned from his tour to SE Asia having discarded all his gear and filling his two seabags with that stuff, Thai stick and some stinky Nam weed that was pretty intense.

roger — March 21, 2013 at 5:07 p.m. ( | suggest removal

For all of you who find MAX as a positive attribute to the crossing project, maybe you should heed this little bit of information. Could it be because the taxpayers are allowing them to become a growing oligarchy of sorts in mass transit??? Some of you may say..."Where did you get your information from?" Others...they might say "Tell us something we don't already know." Well folks...I just found this little tidbit of information which further emphasizes TriMet's attempts at an oligarchical mass transit system...and they're trying to set their claws into C-Tran. They don't give a damn whether or not the people can afford the project. They'll just keep building and building...including WES, their other commuter rail system in Tigard and Wilsonville. Are you aware they have the full intentions of including WES to Salem??? Hell, they're so broke now...they can't even afford to keep buses running any more so naturally, they're turning to rails. You don't believe me??? Well then, check out the last column on page 34 and first column on page 35 in the link below. It took me awhile to find this but I finally did:

Yeah...a positive attribute *my backside!!!* Anybody who continues to support this monopolizing, all but broke entity are nothing but fools times ten!!!

goldenoldie — March 21, 2013 at 5:08 p.m. ( | suggest removal

April is Autism awareness month, show your support by using a blue porch light. I have retrofitted the front of our home with blue LEDs.

frobert — March 21, 2013 at 5:10 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Isn't that nice...Vancouver is losing another business to another state...Young Art. Is this our local leaders' idea of progress??? (yes, said with extreme sarcasm)

Any time we lose any retailer, we're losing yet another entrepreneurial branch of our economic tree here in our city, our county. It's sad to see them go but I wish them well.

goldenoldie — March 21, 2013 at 5:12 p.m. ( | suggest removal

frobert @ 5:10 pm...nice touch. I'll be looking for my blue LED's.

goldenoldie — March 21, 2013 at 5:15 p.m. ( | suggest removal

frobert: Thanks for the heads up on Autism month. I am ready with my blue light.

goldie: I hate to see successful businesses leave our community, too. I do my best to support them. There is a new big box monster coming, though: the old Fred Meyer on Fourth Plain is gone, gone, gone. I almost got teary-eyed seeing it leveled, ugly as it was. So they tell us it might be a Walmart Marketplace. Good for the residents along that corridor who do not have a car, I guess. And better than an empty abandoned warehouse.

Hey, the Seattle Times is postponing their paywall indefinitely. Probably figured out quickly that no one wanted to purchase a digital subscription, given the availability of good online news for free. I hope the Columbian is paying attention. :)

manthou — March 21, 2013 at 5:23 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Yeah, that was a good article, Roger (the pot thing).

(and I just deleted a several paragraph post because it would have been redundant to the Slate piece)

Drift — March 21, 2013 at 5:26 p.m. ( | suggest removal

manthou, it's getting pretty sad that in order to bring jobs to our county, it takes a big box store...a retailer. Seems all we're getting is retail and housing starts - single unit as well as multiple unit housing. Young Art was more than just a retailer, though. They taught children the world of artistic media and displayed the talents of their students. Vancouver is losing a good one for sure...and I'm afraid this might be a restart of a trend we saw a few years ago in downtown.

goldenoldie — March 21, 2013 at 5:30 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Drift — March 21, 2013 at 5:26 p.m.

Ooops!!! Sorry. (Nails made me do it.)

So, back in the day the good stuff we got was buds - usually pretty small ones and they had seeds. My son who lives back East fancies himself a grower - he claims once a plant goes to seed it's worthless to him because it quits building it's THC content. He wants virgin females (and few other comments - I didn't know there was so much sex in growing a weed).

roger — March 21, 2013 at 5:43 p.m. ( | suggest removal

I'm a grower and a breeder, Roger. Before I go any further I'll state nothing leaves the property. I quit peddling weed years and years ago.

Back in the day ('75ish era) Mexican could be had on that side of the border for 90 bones a brick (kilo), 120 this side. It wasn't anything like the cannabis we have today, but it worked for us back then (remember the tray under the couch, the seeds germinating in the floorboard of the car?).

Now and again top shelf (Thai stick, the red, Maui, etc.) stuff would pass through and everyone hoped someone else would buy some. Because 40 bucks for a smidgin just didn't pencil out with the 10 for a "four finger bag."

The 10 dollar bag went away thanks to Uncle Sam and Paraquat. That happened while I was in the Navy. The next cheap weed on the market was called "commercial Colombian." Because, you _knew_ that didn't have Paraquat sprayed on it. It was also 40 for about a quarter oz.

Today there are literally thousand of strains.

I've bred an indica back to a sativa. I'm trying to get the same relief the indica offers, but yet maintain some energy (a medicinal thing). Guess what that sativa was... Mexican brick weed.

In my opinion, the ol' Mex would have been a fine product if the merchants hadn't abused it the way they did (do). Males aren't culled from the fields, allowing the females to seed (your son might be right with that), then the stuff is hacked down and dried in the Sun (U.V.s degrade the cannabinoids) and then! They press it!

Oh my... that is no way to treat cannabis flowers.

I smoked some of my F-2 generation (back to the breeding) sat down and wrote a book. True story, cross my heart hope to die, pins and needles in my eye.

Nails, any squid what sailed the Mediterranean back before 1980 knows the hash. Even them what didn't indulge. Blonde Lebanese was very common. The stuff out of Alexandria was black, with white swirls in it. Wowza.

Cannabis is a unique plant in my opinion. Its uses, and the way it's used, are numerous. I know of no other plant that is as... Oh, now I'm starting to carry on.

I should go now.

Drift — March 21, 2013 at 8:38 p.m. ( | suggest removal

roger,Drift- All hail to God's green earth!

I did fail to mention something about that pricey Dam hash, there might be a *remote* possibility some of it is pretty heavily opiated.


But that kinda takes it to a different level and might be better after hours talk then around the forum water cooler... you no longer smoke for chance of popping hot on a UA? Just curious. You sound like a person who appreciates nature and it's many benefits.

nailingit — March 21, 2013 at 9:27 p.m. ( | suggest removal


I quit in the late '70s when prices escalated. I was an underpaid AZ State employee at the time. Contrary to popular belief, most of the people who just smoked weed - when faced with a choice of getting high or putting food on the family table, will opt for the responsible route. I know most of my crowd did, anyhow.

Starting in the early '80s and for the next 25 years it was a NoGo. We had UAs to ensure compliance, but also they had me sign a piece of paper when I was enlisting and told them I had smoked weed. It was a statement that I wouldn't partake anymore. I modified the statement to say that as long as I worked in any capacity for Uncle Sam and this was illegal, I wouldn't partake. I'm out of uniform but still work for Sam. And I may not have a lot, but I still have the self respect of knowing my word stands for something. (Perhaps an old fashioned Value, but still meaningful to me.) So that's why those days are my past and not the present. (But once I retire... We'll see. My right side is in constant pain, due to a little accident in Panama years ago. I lived on Ibuprofin for years until it started causing stomach problems, and I switched over to Alleve a few years ago. From discussions here and some other reading, Mother Nature may indeed provide an alternative preferable to taking pills.)

roger — March 22, 2013 at 5:42 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Way, way, way back (60's) I got my hands on some Thai stick. It was amazing. I learned that it was laced with opium. A pound lasted for about 5 months for me and my close friends.

Back then we called all weed coming out of Mexico Mexican Dirt Weed. I was also able to get all kinds of pot out of the Golden Triangle. At the time it was the best you could get, anywhere. When I got a job that required UA's I quit smoking. That responsible thing ya know. When I retired I tried to smoke some of today's product. Wowzer!!!

JohnCasey — March 22, 2013 at 6:49 a.m. ( | suggest removal

All this conversation about bud...makes me realize I've never had a need or an urge to alter my senses. Never smoked, snorted, injected or ingested anything in order to seek that "feel good" sensation...never found a need. Tried alcohol...didn't like the reactions occurred with the crap added to it.

Instead, I've surrounded my life with going for that "high..." the type of high which includes climbing the top of the highest peak in the South Washington Cascades or seated as a passenger in a jetliner, traveling over the Swiss Alps or enjoying a wild carnival ride with friends and family or holding each of my beautiful newborns and relishing the wonderment of life itself and how precious it is. Even with the worst pain of all pains running rampant through my system as arthritis tries to take a firm hold...a stroll through the Japanese Gardens of Portland, enjoying the lilacs at Hulda Klager Gardens or spending time with family or friends takes away *my* pains every single time.

Don't know why I had to share this, but it just seemed appropriate at the time.

goldenoldie — March 22, 2013 at 7:51 a.m. ( | suggest removal

For decades breeders have been trying to come up with the "One Hit Wonder" and now it appears the market for such is a niche; not a product of interest for the majority of consumers. I find that humorous, in a twisted way.

Most of my "medicinal" friends maintain strains that work well for their particular malady. The "high" is secondary. My "recreational" aquaintances purchase their cannabis, and the nature of the buzz (uppy, downy, foggy) is the interest.

Regardless of their aim, however, all will do the same thing when tasting a new strain. They critique the taste. Experienced smokers can tell a clean product from one that contains residual cultivating products.

Many of my friends and associates imbibe. There's been more than one occasion several would be out at the picnic table socializing and sampling; as many as eight different varieties of cannabis represented. Taste and comment, taste and comment.

Obviously, the psychoactive effect of any single one can't be judged in that manner. The sampling is all about the bouquet and flavor.

On the medicinal side: Some California breeders have done a flip-flop. They've come up with several varieties containing enough CBD the THC effect is, basically, null. From what I've read the dispensaries can't hardly keep the stuff on the shelf. The pain patients buy it out.

My hope is the wave of legalization will carry research along with it. A clinical scientist down at a Georgia university is currently working with synthetic cannabinoids. He believes he can cure a particular type of leukemia. Yes, I wrote "cure." Not relieve the symptoms, but cure.

Won't it be cool when folks like Lyle Craker (UMassAmhurst) won't need to fight with the DEA over growing and researching the plant?

For me, the recreational aspect is somewhat secondary. There's all kinds of weed out there that's perfectly acceptable for that purpose. I want to see the plant "taken apart." I want to know the relationship between phytocannabinoids and human biology. I mean, c'mon, the CB1 and CB2 neurological systems are the most prevalent in the human body.

But then, I'm kind of weird that way.

Drift — March 22, 2013 at 7:52 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Everybody's different, Goldie. We are all unique.

I've worked on the flight deck of an aircraft carrier, skydived, bungee jumped, raced a motorcycle on an asphalt track...

Though I do take joy in the simple pleasures in life (I talk to the birds that live in my backyard, heh) I seem to easily get bored. For me, (recreational) cannabis just puts a little twist in my perception of the world.

My 90-year-old aunt (former English teacher and published author) has the opnion my claim of cannabis giving me the muse to write is a gawd-awful shame.

Mrs. D and I have been together for near 30 year. I've seen her smoke pot, maybe thrice.

In my view, cannabis is merely one more experience. As you say, many folks are quite fine with the world around them. Some of us, however, are searching for something. What that something may be... I dunno. I'm not saying pot is the key to finding... whatever it is. But maybe, just maybe, it makes the search a little less frustrating.

Have a good weekend, G!

Tomorrow I'm off to help the neighbor harvest firewood.

Drift — March 22, 2013 at 8:11 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Mother Nature may indeed provide an alternative preferable to taking pills.)

roger — March 22, 2013 at 5:42 a.m.

F'ing A she will.

I have serious medical crap that I don't share and won't. I'll just say Pot is a *Godsend* (trying to lure conservatives;) for many of us. I've read articles of late seemingly geared for first time and/or returning users and it does my heart good society is changing.

Although legalization won't change many societal usage dynamics, one that will change, I think, is retirees opening themselves up to marijuana use.

I believe legalization and availability will sway seniors to receive benefits this wonderful plant has to offer when they otherwise wouldn't.

In doing so, maybe the political profile of the aging senior white male will change from conservative to leaning liberal. Pot can also open doors that have been shut for a long time. (I know a few in here could use a toke or two) Just a thought and it's all good!


nailingit — March 22, 2013 at 8:24 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Everybody's different, Goldie. We are all unique. (and I refer to the rest of your comment as well)

Drift — March 22, 2013 at 8:11 a.m.

That's what I like about your posts, Drift...your perspective on the subject is educating and enlightening. I respect your methodology and explanations for use of cannabis in your case. I hope you know that.

Some of us are thrill seekers...again, it sounds as if you are one of them. Others such as myself have had a few thrills and spills and are pleased with just absorbing life and all it has to give. You have chosen cannabis as yet one more experience in your life and again, I respect the fact that it IS your choice...just as in my choice, I refrain from the use of cannabis in any form.

As you said and I quoted from you at the beginning...everybody's different. We are all unique.

Life at its best, my friend. You have a good weekend as well, cap'n.

goldenoldie — March 22, 2013 at 8:33 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Sorry to be a buzz killer, but back to the CRC here. One of our Port of Vancouver commissioners (Jerry Oliver) wrote a guest opinion for The Oregonian explaining why he believes the CRC as planned is the wrong approach.

He says we should drop light rail, add BRT lanes instead, and just fix the interchange on each side of the bridge - that these changes would reduce the cost into the range of being affordable.

He notes --

"We should consider the object lesson given by Gov. Chris Christie of New Jersey. In 2010 he canceled a train tunnel because he could not in good conscience "stick the taxpayers of New Jersey with $4 billion-$5 billion." He said the proposed cost had escalated from $8 billion to $11 billion to $14 billion. He canceled it in spite of the fact $600 million already had been spent on the project. He canceled it because he felt that project benefits simply did not justify the cost."

roger — March 22, 2013 at 9:33 a.m. ( | suggest removal

So, Nails, it isn't just a bunch of angry old cheapskates that think this project is bad news. Oliver is an integral member of an operation (the Port of Vancouver) that probably does more for the economic benefit and future of our side of the river than just about anybody else. (One of the reasons I keep saying to cancel that Waterfront Development project and turn that area over to the Port instead. We know they can attract business; that high rise community that businesses are going to want to move to is just another Vancouver City Council pipe dream like the Hilton has proven to be.)

roger — March 22, 2013 at 9:42 a.m. ( | suggest removal

*So, Nails, it isn't just a bunch of angry old cheapskates that think this project is bad news.*

much of this anti everything is nothing but a bunch of stingy old farts who refuse to part with a dollar.

Much, but not all I might add. Some have real concerns with business affiliations and so forth.

nailingit — March 20, 2013 at 8:31 p.m.

There you go again...

When you don't keep it real...

nailingit — March 22, 2013 at 9:53 a.m. ( | suggest removal

*Sorry to be a buzz killer*

Trust me, nothing you say will kill it.

I apologize for my lack of political posts. Busy today but will try and work them in! :)

Some great stuff going on and it's hard to know where to start! The conservative crazies have been going wild!

nailingit — March 22, 2013 at 10:01 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Nails - Just needed to get your attention. I plan on winning you over yet.

roger — March 22, 2013 at 10:05 a.m. ( | suggest removal

manthou, roger, others who care about media integrity please take a look.

Fox News viewers, this is what your network kept from you.

Foreign policy buffs-you won't be disappointed either!

nailingit — March 22, 2013 at 10:12 a.m. ( | suggest removal

roger: Jerry Oliver is very conservative. So his point of view is not surprising.

I know the CRC isn't a left or right issue, but I don't see many Republicans backing LR. I don't see many Democrats against it.

I am with nailingit: The new bridge is coming with all the LR accoutrements. If LR is scuttled, the whole bridge is scuttled.

I think it is great that folks are exercising their free speech regularly on this topic, and, just because it might be a non-productive exercise, doesn't mean they should shut up. Use it or lose it: I admire passionate advocacy. Like Michael Moore said on Piers Morgan the other night (and I paraphrase): I admire the Republicans. Even if their ideas are crazy (his words, not mine), they fight for that vaginal probe to the death. The Democrats? They cave.

I could be wrong about the CRC.

I am not joking about looking at Colorado to relocate: just take a gander at the laws passed recently. For me, that speaks volumes. Of course, it could do a 180 with new legislators. Just depends on who holds the power.

manthou — March 22, 2013 at 10:19 a.m. ( | suggest removal


Make sure you do your homework! The whole Denver area has become a pretty overgrown mess - My wife's niece and her husband are trying to find work in Portland so they can get away from there.

roger — March 22, 2013 at 10:45 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Greetings. I'm a relatively recent (a year or so) lurker, and appreciate the more substantial conversations that take place here as opposed to the FB side.

Has anyone listened to the BOCC board time audios? I'm particularly intrigued by this week's, with its chatter about the logistics of board meeting prayer, personnel issues, and what one person (Barron?) says is going to be "very damaging" info that could be released from some public records requests. Hmm. Link here (public records convo a little more than halfway through, and a few minutes from the end, a Mielke records request compliance conversation that I found interesting/curious):

Enjoy the day. I'm going to harvest some nettles.

pfaffmachine — March 22, 2013 at 11:30 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Welcome pfaffmachine.

nailingit — March 22, 2013 at 11:49 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Nice to have someone new.Welcome paffmachine.Just what do you do with nettles?

timerick — March 22, 2013 at 12:31 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Thanks, nailingit and timerick!

Timerick, I smoke 'em. Just kidding! Nettle soup, nettle risotto, nettle gnocchi, and my personal favorite, nettle spaetzle. Blanche them and use like cooked spinach. Some people make nettle tea and nettle pesto. They're quite nutritious and the price is right, thanks to their preference for the mudflats in the backyard.

pfaffmachine — March 22, 2013 at 12:58 p.m. ( | suggest removal

pfaffmachine: I put nettles in my green sludge smoothie when I get them. :)

Welcome. Glad to see you think the conversations here have more substance. I would agree. Bill Barron is the Clark County Administrator, kind of like a City Manager. I do check in on those videos, but swear off every so often when they make me angry. Why expose myself to needless pain?

Are you a sewer? I have a Bernina and Singer Feartherweight 221 and an old treadle, just to keep me humble. Haven't had time to put them to good use in a long while, however.

manthou — March 22, 2013 at 1:21 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Interesting audio link to the Clark County commission meeting. Doesn't look like David Madore was there.

Looks like The Columbian (thank you) has been "nosing around" (Mielke's words) about a personnel issue and the commissioner is worried about possible libel liability. Kevin Gray was mentioned, the head of Environmental Services who just resigned. There was a mention of Francine (Reis) needing to come in to talk. She is the HR Director. There was also a mention that Mielke wanted to put someone back into a lead position. There was a reference to three people involved in a personnel issue that may be exposed to this FOIA request by the C.

Apparently, this information will be released to The C on March 29th, or at least some of it. Look forward to it.

What was really interesting (good job, pfaffmachine) was the cursory discussion toward the end. Apparently, Mielke does not want to comply with a request to turn over County communication that is on his home computer and was refusing to meet with an attorney about it. His refusal to comply with the request puts Clark County in legal liability, according to someone. I assume that was Bill Barron. It sounds like Mielke will meet, but with Steve Stuart in attendance.

Keep up the pressure, Columbian.

Thanks, again, for the preview, pfaffmachine.

manthou — March 22, 2013 at 2:08 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Lijah Hanley, a 17-year old from Vancouver took a grand prize in the National Geographic Student Photo Contest. This is a big deal for a local teen from our fine area yet I see nothing in the Columbian about it.


To Lijah's a huge **CONGRATS to you!** Keep up the good work and keep your dreams alive, young man!

goldenoldie — March 22, 2013 at 2:46 p.m. ( | suggest removal

goldie: The Columbian covered this young man in a feature last April.

His photography is extraordinary. It reminds me of the night photography of Brad Goldpaint.

Lijah's website will blow your minds, for sure:

[link text][1]


manthou — March 22, 2013 at 4:17 p.m. ( | suggest removal

*Somebody has to keep an eye on these social terroists. Their constituents don't!*

**Ted Cruz Amendment To Repeal Obamacare Fails**

**GLAAD To Fox News: If You Want To Attend Our Events, Stop Attacking LGBT People**

**Calvin Beisner, Evangelical Christian, Claims Environmentalism Great Threat To Civilization**

**Georgia Guns On Campus Bill Passes State House Of Representatives**

**Kansas Lawmakers Advance Open Carry Gun Bill**

**Cecile Richards: 'It's Not Safe To Be A Woman' In Some States**

nailingit — March 22, 2013 at 4:40 p.m. ( | suggest removal

nailingit: My head is in Clark County right now, but I would love to give your links a gander in just a little while. Sorry if I seem rude....

holycrapola: Mielke seems really worried about the request to turn over county communication that is on his personal home computer. The other two commissioners have complied with the Columbian's FOIA request for this, but he is resisting. "Let 'em sue," is what I can hear him say on the recording. He keeps wanting to meet with the two county attorneys (Potter and Volkman) in Executive Session, but Barron keeps telling him, that it only pertains to him and that his private meeting with these two attorneys can be considered "executive."

Mielke complains something to the effect that he has never seen such a request in the four years he has held this office (4 years too many in my book). Then Stuart steps in to rescue: I think he wants the other commissioners at this meeting with him. I will show up, if you want.

What is Mielke worried about?

Those of us who worked in government (hey, roger that is you and I, for starters) realize that email communication is never private. Anything I sent at home that was work-related was subject to FOIA requests and has been provided over the years, for sure. Especially during law suits.

Mielke rose through the legislative ranks during the good ol' boy days, for sure, holycrapola. No one at that time cared what they wrote. I know the email I got from him over his "tough love" comment was crazy sounding. Was it sent from home? God knows what else is on there.

I cannot wait.

manthou — March 22, 2013 at 5 p.m. ( | suggest removal

manthou — March 22, 2013 at 4:17 p.m.

Much thanks. Beautiful work! I have a budding photographer in the family who also appreciated it.

nailingit — March 22, 2013 at 5:03 p.m. ( | suggest removal

This Mielke is fascinating. I listened to a good part of the recording. Could be the tip of the iceberg.

nailingit — March 22, 2013 at 5:10 p.m. ( | suggest removal

manthou — March 22, 2013 at 4:17 p.m.

All the more reason why I was surprised they didn't jump on the news that he'd won the grand prize this year. His work is amazing...and I hope Nat'l. Geo. offers him a position on their photography staff. Either that or he'll have a fantastic career as a self-made professional photographer. Ohh...the possibilities are endless for this young man!!!

goldenoldie — March 22, 2013 at 5:34 p.m. ( | suggest removal

pfaffmachine, welcome to the jungle...I mean...

welcome to the forum!

goldenoldie — March 22, 2013 at 5:40 p.m. ( | suggest removal

I know (for a fact) an email exchange between The Milk Man and a resident of Clark County was attached (as corroborating evidence (an exhibit)) to a lawsuit filed in Clark County Supreme Court naming The City of Vancouver as respondent (this was at the end of last year).

The case was withdrawn by the plaintiff before it went to hearing, but you'd think Mielke would be aware...

Dude needs "handlers," man. Or maybe, a (another?) different hobby.

Drift — March 22, 2013 at 5:45 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Drift and holyc: Interesting about the email exhibit involving Mielke and the dropped lawsuit. Is there a penalty for destroying public records? I hope he is not that comatose after 5.

I am starting to wonder: why did Kevin Gray really resign from the county? He is working from home until his last day on April 15th.

Did someone (like a commissioner or ???) create a hostile work environment for him? He is into Environmental issues, which Mielke and Madore don't believe exist. Is he preparing for a lawsuit? A West Point grad, he is. No dummy and someone who knows how to take direction from higher ranking officials. Unless the direction is so crazya$$, it begs insubordination.

Bill Barron, I think, can be heard saying, "This will be damaging." Then a heavy sigh from someone else.

Who needs reality TV when we have our fearless leaders to amuse us? And our hometown journalists to hold government accountable (rather than joining up with the government against the little guy).

goldenoldie and nail: Lijah Hanley's photographs are so stunningly beautiful, they brought tears to my eyes. Otherworldy. Spiritual. Mystical. He will go far. What lucky parents produced such a child? :)

manthou — March 22, 2013 at 6:57 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Reference the tape of the County Board meeting --

Starting right at about 40:00 they get into this - mentioned are two names that sound like "the Berges" and "Robin" - Then a moment or so later they mention The Columbian asking questions. They clearly mention "the Kevin Gray issue" and then from there talk about it being bad and a possible lawsuit.

Kevin Gray was Director of Clark County Environmental Services. He just resigned for an unspecified reason at the beginning of February. There was a Columbian article on this resignation that could be interpreted to mean something was behind the resignation.

There was a recent article about Clark County being found in violation of storm water runoff requirements or something? I didn't pay a lot of attention. But I just dug up an Oregonian article covering this -- Seems we're subject to some fines. The name Bertish is mentioned here. (Is that the name I heard as "Berges"?) We're also subject to federal action - Bertish notes he's surprised the County didn't elect to settle with environmental groups, and is prepared to battle it out in court.

But when searching for Kevin Gray, I found another Columbian article talking this issue. Included in the article was mention of the Board believing the Clean Water Standard is illegal, and that the Rosemere Neighborhood Association (among others) are fighting the County over their position. The name Bertish is mentioned here too. Stuart is quoted as saying it's a ridiculous rule to require developed land to drain as well as when forest land, and he won't vote for it. He then say "Sue me." Next paragraph mentions legal challenges.

So, is it possible this is what all that talk was about?

roger — March 22, 2013 at 8 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Editor Lou and John of Whinerville have let our generation down. Young Stephanie Rice has an All Politics article on Mayor Tim and his shiny red mustang. She went and linked to a video from "the late Wilson Pickett" doing Mustang Sally. Kudos to the young lady for knowing of this '60s great. But one problem - he was Mister Wilson Pickett. I'd have expected one of the old guys to correct her on this.

roger — March 22, 2013 at 8:21 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Mister Lou, you have an interesting Press Talk this morning.

A wonderful tribute to Ms. Kathie Durbin, a writer with many talents...a woman with courage and dignity. Many could learn a lesson or two from her experience. She will be missed.


Now Mister Lou...regarding your comment about light rail and your poll. Sir, you have pulled a fast one on the readers. Your blatantly generic poll was intended as yet another score for media sensationalism to promote the current CRC project at best. You have duped the people in order to show yet another measly, lame attempt at diminishing the message of those of us who find the current crossing project design highly flawed and will never support it. We can read between the lines in your ulterior motive, Lou. To say your news company is unbiased makes anybody choke on their morning coffee as they read your BS.

You sir, did not mention the FACT that there was no suggestion for people to dash to the LRT station proposed for this project in order to catch LRT to Portland. You sir, did not mention the FACT that there was no reference TO THE FACT that ALL roadways leading into Portland were gridlocked and drivers wouldn't be able to make it to the transit station OR that the buses leading to the transit station would also be stuck in that gridlock. And finally, you also did not mention the FACT that there was a high probability that the LRT lines in Vancouver would not have moved freely due to the problems of traffic gridlock...even a high probability of train versus automobile collision in downtown.

Misleading the people into believing something in order to score points with your cronies with the CRC loses your credibility as an editor of a news company that is supposedly based on integrity, sir.

goldenoldie — March 23, 2013 at 8:48 a.m. ( | suggest removal

This is what happens to some when drinking the Fox kool-aid. It's so addicting for the hard core conservatives they need a stronger fix! Too funny. The out-of-touch idiocy Fox promotes is biting their backsides. It couldn't happen to a nicer group.

Remember, in spite of the humor involved, these guys vote! :(

**Why Tea Partiers Are Boycotting Fox News**

First it was the ‘left’ turn after the election, then Benghazi coverup accusations. Activists have a list of demands for the conservative network, which some say is ‘not as fair and balanced as I thought.

“Particularly after the election, Fox keeps turning to the left,” said Stan Hjerlied, **75,** of Fort Collins, Colo., and a participant in the boycott. He pointed to an interview Fox News CEO Roger Ailes gave after the election in which he said that the Republican Party and Fox News need to modernize, especially around immigration. “So we are really losing our only conservative network.”


“I used to have it on all day long, and I probably watched maybe six hours last week,” he said. “The more I looked at it, I have come to the conclusion that Fox is not as fair and balanced as I thought. They shade the truth also.”

Donnie Farner, 48, works as a chimney sweep in central Pennsylvania and runs a website, Proud Conservative, which sells right-leaning memorabilia like “Liberals Are Friggin Idiots” T-shirts and bumper stickers which read “Ten Out of Ten Terrorists Recommend Voting Democrat.”

He said staying away from Fox News, and in particular its website, is harder than he realized.
“It is honestly because Fox is everywhere. If you are on Twitter, you click on a link, chances are it might go through Mediaite or Drudge, but it ends up at Fox because Fox originated the story.”

**He quickly clicks away, instead relying on Glenn Beck’s website The Blaze to stay informed.**

nailingit — March 23, 2013 at 8:58 a.m. ( | suggest removal

roger @ 8 PM: Excellent added info to the Clark County issue. There is an excellent video interview of Michael Bertish by a journalist from the Portland Observer in 2010 that explains the history of this storm water fight. It is a bit long, but worth watching.

I have to commend Rosemere for hanging in there all these many years in their attempt to obtain environmental justice. This citizen organization has certainly been tenacious in putting the screws to city, county and federal government. I admire them. They are winning, but it took so long.

There is a lesson in there somewhere, citizens. :)

I do know that I was told by a Dept of Fish and Wildlife employee (who worked in the office across from the old, now demolished Fred Meyer on 4th Plain) that their sewer system had been erroneously connected to the storm water runoff and was dumping raw sewage for years. It was being corrected and I asked what the construction was about. One example of hundreds in these older neighborhoods, I hear. And we need to thank the tenacity of those Rosemere advocates for shining a light on this.

Here is the video interview of Michael Bertish in 2010. They have earned another big win since then and Clark County commission is not happy about that:

[link text][1]


manthou — March 23, 2013 at 8:59 a.m. ( | suggest removal

manthou-Pretty dang close to twilight zone time with posts!

Oh what the hell...

nailingit — March 23, 2013 at 9:03 a.m. ( | suggest removal

It must be that we both are spending too much time on here, nailingit! The chances of us having identically-timed posts increases with every minute...:)

I think I like the strength-of-conviction I see hear lately, no matter whether I agree or not. It is good citizenship to question and challenge government. Maybe too many of us cut our teeth on that during the 60's.....but I approve of it all.

manthou — March 23, 2013 at 9:08 a.m. ( | suggest removal

I was going through some old songbooks and thought to share a couple of favorite and feel good Beatles tunes.

Nobody's ever done it better..

A gift to our Portugues friends. (plus it's hard to find something domestic due to copyright stuff)

*Ei Jude Comece!*

nailingit — March 23, 2013 at 9:47 a.m. ( | suggest removal

OH MY GOD! At 4:29...with the green's Carol from my ninth grade journalism class!! It can't be!

Na na na...

nailingit — March 23, 2013 at 9:57 a.m. ( | suggest removal

From a 2009 Columbian article that discusses Kevin Gray's new promotion to the job he is now leaving:

*Dvija Michael Bertish of the Rosemere Neighborhood Association, a Vancouver environmental group that has threatened a lawsuit, said Gray’s work will be hamstrung by politicians.

“He has to do the bidding of the county commissioners, and they say to do certain things that have become insurmountable tasks,” Bertish said. “Their decision-making process hasn’t been on behalf of the environment.”

Clark County lost its bid in early March, a couple of weeks ago now, to have the Supreme Court hear their case. So, the County must abide by the stricter environmental guidelines that Rosemere fought so hard for. Clark county wanted to be the sole county in WA to make up their own rules in this area. They buck current research, but hey, this is Clarkansas, afterall.

Sooooo, maybe Gray's resignation last month shows that Clark county pressure to ignore science and best practices water management finally got to him. Or maybe he was just tired of fighting Rosemere's winning record in court at the behest of his employer, Clark County.

Whatever, we will soon know more of the truth, if the Columbian is able to ferret it out.

I eagerly await the story that unfolds.

manthou — March 23, 2013 at 10:08 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Interesting connection manthou. Our local politics are working their way into my senses. (Can't altogether be a good thing)

Is Gray reluctant to give interview's? (maybe disclosure/privacy concerns?)

I'd be surprised if the Columbian were the first to scoop.

nailingit — March 23, 2013 at 10:24 a.m. ( | suggest removal

**Got this email from Jamie this morning.**

The Columbia River Crossing (CRC) as currently designed is too low, and would have a severe impact on local businesses, and local jobs. In order to get a firsthand look, I recently toured Greenberry Industrial – an employer located just upriver from the I-5 bridge. Here’s what I learned:

A single vessel impacted by the low bridge height can represent a $500 million project that takes up to two years to build, and provides more than 500 high-paying manufacturing jobs.

Additionally, one large project can contribute hundreds of millions of dollars annually to the community through material suppliers, equipment rentals, subcontractors and other related industries.

I have formally requested the Coast Guard to fully study these impacts and refrain from permitting a design that will restrict our economy. It’s critical that we address the I-5 bridge in a manner that fosters job growth in Southwest Washington.

**Shouldn't this have been one of the FIRST things done?**

hawkeye — March 23, 2013 at 10:47 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Shouldn't this have been one of the FIRST things done?

hawkeye — March 23, 2013 at 10:47 a.m

Yes, it should have been Hawkeye, it takes JHB to do what all others have failed to do...

ELISI — March 23, 2013 at 11:05 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Goldie and Manthou,

RE: The topic of journalist integrity.

I had no idea who Kathie Durbin was, so after reading Editor Lou's eulogy I googled and checked her out. Andrea's column over at WW was the best. She cites the WW publisher, who said that when Durbin was receiving an award way back when for her look into Title IX, Gov Tom McCall was overheard saying the WW reporters “were piranhas, always looking for blood.” Andrea also makes it clear Durbin was her mentor when she was starting out. Andrea is very good, so I figured this lady must have been dynamite.

I went to a Columbian link and read (actually reread) some of her articles. It's clear from her history and from the books she wrote that Durbin had a very strong environmentalist agenda, but I found the articles she wrote on this topic almost neutral in tone. If I hadn't known, I wouldn't have detected where she stood on the articles she wrote. And the articles - almost without fail - had plenty of detail covering all sides of a story when controversial.

Too bad there aren't more like her.

roger — March 23, 2013 at 11:25 a.m. ( | suggest removal

roger: Kathie Durbin was old-school journalism and top-knotch. These folks are aging out of the system, unfortunately, through retirement, lay offs and passing. The fact that some younger journalists, like Andrea D, had the honor of calling these extraordinary professionals "Mentor" bodes well for the future.

I just hope there are enough Andreas out there to fill those impossible shoes.

manthou — March 23, 2013 at 11:32 a.m. ( | suggest removal

holycrapola: You have a sense of humor I appreciate. Just sayin'. :))))

manthou — March 23, 2013 at 11:37 a.m. ( | suggest removal

holycrapola — March 23, 2013 at 11:11 a.m.

Your argument that the businesses affected by the CRC need to be relocated downriver so we don't suffer from the pollution they create is an interesting one. I've proposed numerous times in the past (ask Manthou!) that we need to stop this silly idea of rebuilding the old downtown into a modern city - That the best use for this land would be to turn it over to the Port and have it leveled/rezoned light industrial so the Port has room to expand and compete with the Ports of Portland and Longview. That we are a suburban community, populated largely by people who work in the city but don't want to deal with the hassles of living in one.

I suspect that in respect to the topic of light rail, this would lead to one of two outcomes. The first is that the planners would reroute it straight up the I5 to (the fairgrounds? Ridgefield? All the way to Woodland?). This would probably make it attractive to enough commuters that it could rival the Blue line in ridership (economic feasibility is open to discussion). The second would be that the "need" would disappear. And from reading the City of Vancouver revitalization plans, and the plans for LRT to support all the residents of the highrise apartments they plan on building, I suspect this would be the probable outcome.

roger — March 23, 2013 at 11:45 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Manthou and Roger: old-time journalism with its robing and covering details is a painstakingly long process that seems not to fit into our fast life style. Don't get me wrong: I sorely miss good journalism. However, we, the consumers, are to be blamed for part of it. We want it all, we want it now. The explosion of social media, especially Twitter (yuk yuk), and the internet itself, have switched everything around. We do not read the paper, we go online. We demand instant access and instant news. We need it covered right now. Does that leave room to check background and sources? Does it allow even background? Just think - stay offline for a day do not follow news. How do you feel then? Do you feel you missed something? Did all the news affect you personally?

We have turned into news junkies demanding instant gratification. 24/7 access.

Not that it's a bad thing; just saying. So do news follow our demands or do we follow them? Which is it? What's a journalist to do?

Again, I much prefer the old way with details, investigation, unbiased news. Can we get it back? Not sure. The playing field has changed and until we all demand a change back to something better, we might be stuck with this mess that is journalism these days. That's why I like to read a number of very different news sources for some of the bigger national and international stories; only way to get to the truth.

luvithere — March 23, 2013 at 12:31 p.m. ( | suggest removal

holycrapola — March 23, 2013 at 11:11 a.m.

Your witty humor as entertaining. Your suggestion for a Zeppelin or some green cookies...thanks but no thanks, holyc. You can keep that stuff all to yourself.

You asked a great question of me regarding how light rail would impact my life. You also mentioned a couple of pointers...(1) my mode of transportation and (2) my better half's commute. Well holyc, I'll try to answer you in the best way I could.

Light rail is quite expensive to construct, maintain and operate. Ridership numbers have been on the decline on the Yellow Line as well as the other MAX lines since April of last year according to TriMet's reports. The original estimates of ridership numbers as opposed to commuters in private vehicles has drastically changed since the original surveys were documented. Employment in Clark County has barely broken even this past month, mostly due to the fact that many UI benefits were cut and those who are no longer on UI benefits are no longer in the scope. Foreclosures were also up once again in recent weeks in Clark County. Businesses are cutting back, closing up and/or moving out of state, holyc. That will put the burden on those who remain. So now we're talking about funding C-Tran's share of m&o; for MAX...something the taxpayers said " way!" If TriMet is having that much difficulty with keeping things running here in Clark County, coupled with the fact that ridership numbers are not producing the fare revenues they desperately need AND that they've had to make some drastic changes in their own zones including cutting services, even though they're still working in the red...and it's going to have to come from somewhere, holyc.

IF TriMet has MAX in Clark County, they'll have the ability to acquire Clark County taxpayer funding. They are already acquiring payroll tax funding...especially from those of us who live in Clark County and don't get the chance to vote on their ballot measures. That would be a double tax against us...the first example clearly taxation without representation. Then we're possibly being hit soon, once again by our very own state government with a 10-cent a gallon gas tax hike to pay for Washington Transportation needs...that includes funding towards the $450 million share of the crossing project.

You see holyc, we own our home. We've been here for 34+ years. My other half...he used to work for a company which had customers in both states, mostly working on the Washington side...but it has since closed down due to the poor economy (after 58 years). There WAS NO WORK in Vancouver at the time which would pay for the mortgage and raising a family, so he took a job in which gave him work in Washington State but even those jobs have all but disappeared. It's not a matter of choice as you'd like to believe, holyc. (to be continued)

goldenoldie — March 23, 2013 at 3:34 p.m. ( | suggest removal


As I said, it's not a matter of choice for my husband...other than the fact that it was either "have a home over our head" or "be on the streets," holyc.

Now you also had mentioned my better half's commute to Portland. Yes, he takes I-205 but that's only because we're on the east side. Even IF the crossing were to be built and tolls implemented (estimated to start in 2015 according to the CRC), the commute would affect him. It would affect us as well with disrupted family lives, longer commute times and more fuel consumption. He would have to leave much earlier and arrive much later than current times due to the fact that there will be many commuters who will avoid the tolls by going I-205. Not only that, the wear and tear on I-205 will be evident due to the increased traffic flow...hence the state's quote/unquote "need to repair/replace," so it would be a matter of time before they decide to put tolls in on this side as well.

holyc, when your spouse is a little over 5 years (now possibly 10 if the government has any say about the retirement age) away from retirement years...would you expect the person to be able to find work elsewhere in order to avoid crossing into another state for work??? Also, in this very difficult economic time where homes in Clark County are 1/2 to 3/4 the value of what they were in you truly believe a person could sell their home and find another one comparable in price and quality of living as the home they'd bought and paid for?

You ask me regarding my way of getting around town, holyc. I USED to take the bus, still may just to go to the mall, should I have a need but for right now, I carpool with people. Honestly, there's nothing in Portland that I need to commute via Bus or LRT for. Besides, if I needed to get somewhere fast, buses and light rail are not the answer...especially with the screwed-up timing of mass transit. A good working carpooling system pays off in the long run.

The fact AND light rail systems screw up automobile traffic flow...and that also includes the disruptions which would also affect C-Tran bus/BRT schedules. Traffic will not improve with LRT on the bridge. Accidents will still happen on both bridges and within 2 1/2 miles of each bridge, stopping all traffic flow. People will still miss their destination times. LRT will only be a substitute for those who already take the buses...especially given the decline in numbers on MAX

goldenoldie — March 23, 2013 at 3:55 p.m. ( | suggest removal

A final note...and I apologize to everyone for being so long winded on this subject...

In my case...speaking for myself...

I keep abreast of traffic flow in the P/V area regularly, thanks to tripcheck and WSDOT websites. If and that's a big ***IF*** I had the need to travel to Portland and saw there was an accident such as the one this last week which almost took the life of a young lady who must've had angels watching over her, I'd change my schedule accordingly and refrain from traveling anywhere that takes me near a highway till the traffic issues cleared OR choose another day to travel.

goldenoldie — March 23, 2013 at 4:02 p.m. ( | suggest removal

holycrapola — March 23, 2013 at 5 p.m.

We've already got Plan B in order and are working on Plan C as well as D and E, holyc. Plan C of course, is contingent on approval by the USCG as well as the Washington State Senate's decision regarding the $450 million. Plan D and E...move out of Clark County/move out of any location associated with the I-5 Corridor...are our last resort decisions we hope we never have to make.

About the house as a rental...too many issues for a landlord. We'd have to put it on the market right away if we ever moved from here. Most likely, we wouldn't even come close to what the market value would be...and that's the cold, hard facts about selling a home right now. That "find a job" thingy...his job is good. There's just no work on this side of the river.

What you say regarding the powers that be and how they're running the show, holyc... oh, so very true. I hear ya about feeling trapped in a third rate city...I understand you a lot more than you give me credit for.

Regarding that "puff at the end of the day....."

George Winston's music doesn't need any additives. Wonderful, relaxing music...usually the type of music I listen to when I want wind down at the end of the day. Great minds....!!!

Thanks for sharing.

goldenoldie — March 23, 2013 at 6:22 p.m. ( | suggest removal

I know many would like this to be a non-partisan issue, but unfortunately ideology plays a big part when it comes to trains n' government. A good article providing insight with some interesting numbers.

**Off the Rails**

*Why do conservatives hate trains so much?*

In the movie version of Atlas Shrugged, there is a scene in which Ayn Rand's libertarian heroes defy all odds, deploy some untold amount of private funding, and launch the fastest high-speed train in history over rails of experimental metal. "The run of the John Galt Line is thrilling,"wrote the libertarian federal judge Alex Kozinski. "When it crossed the bridge made of Rearden Metal, I wanted to stand up and cheer."

That's in the fantasy world. In the real world, libertarians aren't cheering for high speed rail but rather trying to stop it from being built. They are succeeding.

What, exactly, do Republicans, conservatives, and libertarians have against trains? Seriously, what? Why did President George W. Bush try to zero out Amtrak funding in 2005? Why is the conservative Republican Study Committee suggesting that we do so now? Why does George Will think "the real reason for progressives' passion for trains is their goal of diminishing Americans' individualism in order to make them more amenable to collectivism"?

"You need to distinguish between Republicans and conservatives and libertarians when you look at this," says William Lind, the director of the American Conservative Center for Public Transportation. "It's the libertarians who push this crap."

Libertarians, of course, have no problem with trains (see, e.g., Atlas Shrugged). They do have a problem with federal spending on transportation, as do many Republicans. Atlas Shrugged was published in 1957; Amtrak took over the rails in 1971. Since then, conservatives will sing the praises of private rail projects but criticize federally funded projects that don't meet the ideal.

Read more @

nailingit — March 23, 2013 at 6:57 p.m. ( | suggest removal

This for Debbie Peterson on the FB side. (I never post there)

She posted, on FB, a question that The Columbian Should put up a simple pole question without skewering it.

I, along with others here on the forum, have been asking for that for a long time now. They won't do it. A simplified question is not to their liking.

Here's a sample I gave them. Ask this; Knowing most of the problems that Tri-Met has with their finances would you want Light-Rail on the replacement bridge? Simple with no hidden agenda?? Or how about another one; Given the amount of our money that would be used to construct and maintain Light-Rail for a few citizens to use would you want it added to the cost of building the replacement bridge? Or how about one more; Knowing the flexibility of BRT,would you be for that instead of Light-Rail?

My fellow forum folks will have more pointed questions I'm sure. But you get the point. Some of the pole questions have been poorly constructed and I believe it's for this reason. It generates more controversy and hopefully it brings in more readers. It seem to have the opposite affect to some. I asked around and some people just don't waste their time anymore.

JohnCasey — March 24, 2013 at 6:29 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Mr. Moeller seems to think the money is out there for the replacement bridge. He's just trying to think up ways to get into our wallets deeper to get it. In fact he's made it his number one priority. LOL

This project has become more political than it should have ever been. We all know that a third bridge will be needed right after the I-5 Bridge is rebuilt. It should have been the other way around. A new bridge first the a replacement bridge.

As a Democrat Mr. Moeller should be pushing for a third bridge. After all that's what Democrats do. More of everything. Right? If he were a true party member he would campaign for a new bridge with Loo-Rail on it also. Heck why stop there? Drum up business for a set of tracks on the I-205 bridge. All he has to do is raise taxes and fees for living in this county. Easy. Just do a little 'scratch my back and I'll scratch yours. DAMN THE TORPEDOS, FULL SPEED AHEAD!!!

Just the same ol' way of doing business in good ol' Clark County and Olympia.

JohnCasey — March 24, 2013 at 6:56 a.m. ( | suggest removal

HC, you bring up a very valid point. The heavy hitters (ie. Big Time Pharmaceuticals) have been pushing dangerous drugs with nasty side effect on the public for a long time. The Doctors, for the most part, have bought into this.

Now the big push is to limit how much to give a patient. One drug that I'm familiar with is Methadone. I know two people who use it for pain management. Until then I thought it was to be used for getting off heroin. Silly me. They both now suffer from those 'bad' side effects.

Now the medical community has been told, by the feds, to cut the overall usage down. They have realized that they have made a hugh mistake. Methadone is MORE addictive than Heroin.

Kind of like closing that barn door, if you ask me. Hopefully they can do something about all the addicts they have created.

JohnCasey — March 24, 2013 at 7:24 a.m. ( | suggest removal


Regarding your comment about the green cookies or taking a few puffs...

I won't ever give that a chance and I do not (and have never) utilize BIG PHARMA products in order to get a good night's rest. You seem to think it takes a long time to learn meditation but what you don't realize is this. Meditation is only a part of what helps those who have issues with sleep deprivation or the need to "wind down" from the day. A balanced diet, daily regimen of exercise, keeping a balanced budget, not letting the stress of every day living overtake you...these are other factors which aid in the process. Music soothes the savage soul. is too short. Why waste it on mood enhancers when there's so much to be thankful much to see and do???

goldenoldie — March 24, 2013 at 7:32 a.m. ( | suggest removal

holyc, regarding your statement...*"If you knew about your last day on earth, the precise date. Would you go out with a bang or keep at it mellow and without experiencing a wider vision of reality. Meaning you can see, think and live what others don't dare to live?"*...

Not sure what you mean by keeping it mellow and without experiencing a wider vision of reality. If I knew when my last day was on this God's Green Earth...I'd be fulfilling every personal wish, every personal goal in the days/weeks/years, leading up to that point. The final day...I'd be in my most favorite place in the world - sitting in my favorite overstuffed chair (yes, bring it to the mountain peak), overlooking the massive mountain range and valleys, sippin' on a cup of freshly-roasted, freshly-ground coffee with my sweetheart of 36 years at my side, breathing in all that fresh, clean air, sharing that last moment together.

goldenoldie — March 24, 2013 at 7:43 a.m. ( | suggest removal

HC, I don't particularly count on them. I commented because if the pole question is phrased a certain way you will always get a skewered answer. I know that. I have comment on other newspaper sites about the same thing. You're right it's all about the outcome wanted by the people in charge.

I understand the need to grab the money while we can. The feds will 'give' that money to whoever is first in line. It's they way Mr. Moeller wants to get the rest of the money. We have someone representing us who truly wants to fleece us. I am not parroting anyone I just think if you raise gas taxes and licensing fees and fees for doing business in this county that you will shoot yourselves in the foot.

The reality is that the fool replacement bridge will probably will have LOO-RAIL on it. And that another needed bridge will not be built until my grand kids grow up. By then it will cost a lot more than the replacement bridge.

After watching this dog and pony show for a number of years here (almost forty years in Vancouver alone) my wife and I had a long discussion. We are currently making plans to move to a warmer climate. We are looking into a few states that have the most advantages without some of the problems that are coming down the pike here. It isn't going to be easy, but this is the time of our lives that we want to go out on our own piece of heaven on earth and smell those roses. Arthritis is a bitch and a warmer climate will help a lot. Plus living almost my whole life in the Great Pacific Northwest my wife and I find ourselves being a little tired of the cloudy, rainy days. We need the change. At our age we find that this move will probably suit us best.

JohnCasey — March 24, 2013 at 8:05 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Your bridge poll questions _are_ biased , J.C.

And why the hell you guys want to give G. a hard time because she chooses not to imbibe I haven't a clue.

C.D. (off to read the city of Kent's response to a lawsuit over cannabis collective gardens. What I've read so far leads me to believe their deputy attorney is on crack)

Drift — March 24, 2013 at 8:23 a.m. ( | suggest removal

holycrapola — March 24, 2013 at 7:04 a.m. -- That printed money facilitates doing big things. We ought to grab it and run with it because if we don't, "others will".

That's one of the many problems with this CRC project.

-The I5 bridge is described as a critical shortcoming on the major north/south transportation corridor on the West Coast. It is so important to replace this bridge that Pres Obama has declared it a project of "national significance."

-The bridge replacement itself will cost about $1 billion, but there are no federal Transportation dollars to pay for this, so the states and tolling have to pick up the burden.

-That same federal Transportation budget does have $850 million to "give" to us (no repayment required) to put a light rail system over the bridge into Vancouver.

If so important, federal Transportation dollars can pay for the new bridge. This federal department has a primary responsibility of maintaining the interstate commerce routes; all these projects like high capacity transportation are a secondary mission. If we truly want light rail, then we should pay for it.

Sorry - That stinks of political agenda to me. Long haul truckers know to use I205 if passing through. (Fortunately, driving in the wrong lane isn't the norm.) The main economy affected is that of Portland - both the Port and downtown. Yet Portland is willing to sacrifice improved access to their Port with the "No LRT, no bridge" stand? Either they're all looney tunes down there, or the current bridge doesn't really hinder their operations as much as the pro-CRC crowd wants us to believe.

roger — March 24, 2013 at 8:28 a.m. ( | suggest removal

JohnCasey, it is my hope that my husband and I aren't forced to make such a decision to move but I understand why you and your wife are making those kind of plans. The PNW's sustainability practices are polluted, largely through the self indulgence by the elite few who stand to gain financially at taxpayers' expense and are supported by those who have been brainwashed that it's "more better" (explicit use of verbiage intended to instill the mindset of idiocy by those mentioned who are brainwashed). I'm afraid to say...this region isn't the only one.

goldenoldie — March 24, 2013 at 8:33 a.m. ( | suggest removal

roger — March 24, 2013 at 8:28 a.m.

I believe that question was raised at the Town Hall Forum...and the explanation by Ms. Boyd was that the $850 million is expressly available for Transit Upstarts and Improvements...

Absolutely *NOTHING* to do with Bridge Infrastructure and Highway Improvements...only rights of way and bottom deck of I-5 Bridge in current LPA design.

goldenoldie — March 24, 2013 at 8:38 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Drift — March 24, 2013 at 8:23 a.m.

A hearty **"THANK YOU"** for that! It is truly appreciated.

goldenoldie — March 24, 2013 at 8:40 a.m. ( | suggest removal

In light of the Supreme Court's rulings expected on marriage equality on Tue & Wed I thought this a outstanding opinion.

jacjak — March 24, 2013 at 9:03 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Did anyone here attend the fundraiser last night, trying to raise $20,000 more for attorney's fees for the light rail vote challenge?

I would love to know if they were able to come close to their goal.

This is probably just a retainer, when all is said and done. Unless they can find a firm to take this on pro bono, they will be looking at a huge and growing bill as this thing heats up.

The government will delay, delay, delay and drive up fees with motions and hearings. Technically, these folks are paying for both sides: the government's through taxes and their attorney out of pocket. I hope they know what they are in for.

The government counts on us peon citizens not being able to stand up to them financially. They get away with some of the things they do because of it.

A good friend of mine just concluded a 14-month legal challenge that was successful. He wound up paying over $100,000 for the satisfaction of getting the big, over-reaching giant to cry "Uncle." Will this delay his retirement? Did it take all his savings and then some? Was it worth it to see an ethics-violator lose? Yes to all.

I think Rosemere has been so successful because they were able to get some national advocacy groups on their side to pitch in.

Anyway, how much was raised? Anyone know?

manthou — March 24, 2013 at 9:16 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Good article jacjak. If you didn't watch Meet the Press check it out later. The shyster conservative Ralph Reed was featured on the discussion panel.

Why Reed's opinion is taken seriously is beyond me. Some care less about a person's credibility as long as they are rabid about agreeing with a personal cause.

The constitution goes out the window, rule of law, public opinion, process etc..

I guess on some level you could apply this locally as well..

nailingit — March 24, 2013 at 9:16 a.m. ( | suggest removal way...not again..

nailingit — March 24, 2013 at 9:18 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Yes, again, nail. We gotta stop meeting like this. :)

You took the words out of my mouth, too, for jacjak: A fantastic opinion-piece by an NFL athlete.

The walls are crumbling down, down, down...

manthou — March 24, 2013 at 9:22 a.m. ( | suggest removal

manthou- It's all good!

I hope yet not *another* area of perceived victimization was birthed today...we have so many.

Having said that, those who might be sensitive to religious humor had better not watch.

Maher nails it!

**Bill Maher Slams Pope Francis And The Media's Fascination With Him (VIDEO)**

nailingit — March 24, 2013 at 10:14 a.m. ( | suggest removal

manthou- I'm still working on that third cup of coffee. Meant *It's all good* as a separate post.

The rest of my post twimc generic. Not meaning to cause any confusion given topic.

[Disclaimer by CMA enterprises]

nailingit — March 24, 2013 at 10:43 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Maybe the future for those shot on the battlefield and a great alternative to tampons. (which I understand work pretty well). Hail to our youth and R & D! One of those things you think should have been developed a long time ago. Check out the vid.

**Joe Landolina, NYU Student, Creates Healing Gel To Stop Bleeding (VIDEO)**

New York University student Joe Landolina has created a new gel that stops bleeding in a way very similar to a product in the video game Mass Effect.

Landolina, a chemical and biomedical engineering major, explained to the New York Post that his invention came from a pretty basic premise: "There's really no way to quickly stop bleeding except to hold lots of gauze on a wound. I thought if you could pour this gel into a wound, it would solidify and stop the bleeding."

Read more @

nailingit — March 24, 2013 at 11:03 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Just got around to checking the C stories and thought to reprint a couple on this forum slow day.

Looking at this group, there can't be a legitimate anti CRC movement with any meaning, to include the guy who paid for his office. The numbers convince me that every anti CRC supporter posts on the C! And the purpose of this anemic meeting was to pay some birther lawyer 20 Grand?

What will these guys do after construction starts? A big part of their life will come to an end. (does Obamacare provide coverage for emotional trainwrecks?) These are the same folks who get fleeced by telemarketers.

Somebody call Sgt. Friday a from the "bunco" squad!

Definitely worth a reprint, and finally an article provoking thought and commentary beyond the usual Columbian CRC trolling pieces.

nailingit — March 24, 2013 at 3:26 p.m. ( | suggest removal

nailingit — March 24, 2013 at 3:26 p.m.

That attorney is a total whack job. And exactly what is he going to do for $20k?

hawkeye — March 24, 2013 at 7:19 p.m. ( | suggest removal

*i believe the invasion of iraq and the removal of the genocidal dictator hussein was absolutely necessary. i also believe that history will prove this true.*

*came across this piece in a german magazine, and thought others may be interested in it. up front, it refutes my opinion. but it's cogent, thoughtful, incisive ideas give much to contemplate.*

**Iraq Anniversary: 10 Lessons from America's 'Dumb War'**

> The United States fought in Iraq for
> nine years. With the exception of the
> war in Afghanistan, it was America's
> longest combat engagement ever: longer
> than the American Civil War, the two
> World Wars, the Korean War and the
> Vietnam War. Any country that enters
> into a war emerges from it changed. It
> is inevitable that there is a before
> and an after. There are the dead, the
> wounded, the survivors.
> But that's not all. There are wars
> that are just and necessary, like
> America's fight against Nazi Germany.
> And there are wars that are senseless
> and wrong, like the war against Iraq.
> Society, politicians and the military
> have drawn lessons from both wars.
> They recognize and welcome these
> lessons to varying degrees, whether
> they are right or wrong. War
> transforms a nation


DeeLittle — March 24, 2013 at 9:05 p.m. ( | suggest removal

hawkeye- *And exactly what is he going to do for $20k?*

Invest? Vacation in Hawaii? After this has dried up offer services to other communities with a small contingent of gullible aging conservatives promising to heal their pain? Vegas?

Good question.

20 large to a Birther lawyer, these guys deserve to get burned!

nailingit — March 24, 2013 at 10:27 p.m. ( | suggest removal

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