Light-rail alignments divide community
Residents, businesses outline drawbacks
Tuesday, March 9, 2010
Update
■ Previously: C-Tran and Vancouver city staff have been studying the potential alignment of east-west light-rail travel on either McLoughlin Boulevard or 17th Street. The Vancouver Working Group, a citizens panel involved in the planning, said McLoughlin was the preferred choice in a narrow 9-8 vote. Five people did not attend the vote, and later 11 of the VWG’s 22 members signed a minority report calling for light rail on 17th Street.
■ What’s new: On Monday night, during a city council workshop, C-Tran and city staff gave their recommendations to routing light rail along 17th Street.
■ What’s next: The city council will hear public testimony on the alignment and make a recommendation to the Columbia River Crossing at 7 p.m. March 15 at City Hall, 210 E. 13th St.
The earliest light rail construction in Vancouver could begin is late 2013, but business owners Carolyn Drew and Mike Starks are a few among many who already know they don’t want it on their block.
Their problem is that they are on different blocks — Drew in a historic home-turned-law office on McLoughlin Boulevard and Starks runs Soha Signs just off 17th Street — and one of them is bound to be disappointed.
With either alignment, on-street parking, left-hand turns and some driveway access will be eliminated. And that’s where the two agree: That’s not going to work on their street.
“I would call it a very vibrant thriving business community on this street,” said Drew, standing on McLoughlin. “It doesn’t appear to me that transportation people … have given much thought to the impact the alignment would have on this street.”
Gathered with several neighbors two blocks away, Starks said he doesn’t see the point of putting a train through the more residential neighborhood.
“McLoughlin has always been the larger corridor,” he said, noting there are talks about installing a train crossing gate in the neighborhood. “Every three to seven minutes we’re going to hear auditory alarms.”
A light-rail extension into Vancouver has been embraced by the city council as part of the plan for the Columbia River Crossing — and planners say the trains are going to go on one street or the other.
The drawbacks and positives to putting trains on bustling, commercial McLoughlin versus the more residential but growth-ready 17th Street are almost exactly the same, city staff has said.
But the time to make an official call has come.
After hearing two hours of information on the alignment Monday night, the city council will hear public testimony and make its recommendation to the Columbia River Crossing on Monday. The C-Tran board of directors will then make its call during its April meeting.
“Honestly, council, there is no right or wrong answer,” City Transportation Manager Thayer Rorabaugh told the seven city councilors Monday night, before putting 17th Street forward as city staff and C-Tran planners’ recommendation.
Light rail was approved by the council in 2008 as part of the locally preferred alternative for the overall Columbia River Crossing, the planned new Interstate 5 bridge. The total cost of light-rail construction is estimated to be $900 million, with $750 million expected to come from the federal government and $150 million from Oregon and Washington, CRC Transit Manager Steven Witter said. Voters will likely vote on the operations funding next year as part of a C-Tran 20-year operations levy, he said.
Light rail would run from downtown Portland to Clark College, bringing northbound traffic up Broadway Street and southbound down Washington Street, before putting both eastbound and westbound trains on either McLoughlin Boulevard or 17th Street.
The east-west alignment has left professional planners and involved residents nearly evenly split in their decisions.
The alignment plans for both McLoughlin and 17th Street show the light rail running in the center of the road, meaning all on-street parking will be eliminated, and some driveway access and numerous left turns will be blocked.
The Vancouver Working Group, a citizens panel convened to study light-rail alignment, made McLoughlin the preferred route in a narrow 9-8 vote last fall. But five people did not attend the vote, and later half of the group’s 22 members signed a minority report calling for light rail on 17th Street.
Rorabaugh and C-Tran Executive Director Jeff Hamm outlined the challenges involved with putting trains on both streets.
“The good news is, both alignments will work,” Hamm said, before saying 17th ultimately became his top choice because there is vacant land on which to build a light-rail station in the future.
The cost to build light rail on McLoughlin would be about $3 million more than on 17th, Hamm said.
But because the 17th alignment requires a sharp curve to reach the Interstate 5 underpass to Clark College, it adds seven seconds to the estimated 44-minute trip from downtown Portland — adding about $190,000 a year to the operating costs of the 17th Street route, Witter said.
The council mentioned its concerns about the curve on 17th being a potential hazard to pedestrians, cars and other traffic.
Hamm said that he’s confident signaling and other traffic-control measures would help.
“You run into unique situations you need to design around,” he said. “Would it be as safe as if we put it on McLoughlin? No. But we can mitigate the issue.”
A few councilors, including Pat Campbell and Bart Hansen, indicated their initial approval for the 17th Street alignment Monday.
“It seems like there’s a lot of pride of ownership in (McLoughlin),” Campbell said. “That means a lot to me.”
Debby Watts, who lives on 17th near F Street, left the workshop dejected.
“It seems like it’s a done deal,” she said. “With the noise and the traffic, it doesn’t make any sense. It will change the dynamics of the neighborhood where we’re living.”
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This is an excellent article showing just what the locals are facing with regards to the lightrail segment of this project which in my personal view is quite an eyesore and NOT aesthetically appealing OR financially efficient. This could have been alleviated by incorporating commuter rail paralleling existing rail lines instead.
To Carolyn, Mike, Debby, and everyone else concerned about the downside of the CRC project...
Welcome to modern transportation visions of the future - CRC Style.
Sucks, doesn't it...8(
goldenoldie — March 9, 2010 at 6:49 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Bear in mind people, the concept drawings at the top of the articles do NOT show the power poles, the connecting lines, the apparatus on top of the lightrail cars, the signals, the pedestrian warning signs, street signs directing traffic, etcetera. Funny how they can leave THOSE out of the drawings.
goldenoldie — March 9, 2010 at 7:02 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Ya, it looks like they are trying to put a silk blouse on a pig. Or in this case a real turkey.
BeezerGeezer — March 9, 2010 at 7:19 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
You want a good look at the future of lite rail?? Just drive out Burnside in Portland and see what a mess it is. Start at 102nd Ave and go east to 181st and see what an eyesore it really is. Pedestrians have issues with crossing the tracks. Vehicles can go only one way approaching Burnside from either the north or south. I drove it Saturday and if it is any indication of what it's like the work days must be a cluster.
What I want to know is why are the city council members on board with this project, knowing full well that the costs go nowhere but up to maintain it?? I asked the Columbian to put in a informal poll of the people to gauge the feasibility (cost of maintaining) of lite rail verses buses over the 20 year plan. Keep it simple. Don't ask it in a way that is leading. Say "do you want it or not". I asked Lou on his blog. I got no response what so ever.
My bet is, knowing the financial problems that have plagued Tri-Met, the people would opt for buses. The council is basically saying to us, s***w you we know what you want. The public has said it before and will say it again "NO LITE-RAIL !!!
To satisfy the feds put the damn tracks on the bridge. That's all. And by the way, the council members better beware that the voters will remember this, believe you me!!!
JohnCasey — March 9, 2010 at 7:37 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Why not save everybody a lot of trouble and just write Oregon another big fat check every month? After all, where do you think any payments on this boondoggle will go?
Oh, and you can expect what will be on our side to be left up to us to maintain at our expense.
There must be a reason they will not bring it to a vote of Clark County.
LewWaters — March 9, 2010 at 8:05 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
What C-Tran really needs to do is fix the bus service here before any light rail arrives.Why have light rail service when there is no bus service to connect to .Imagine riding max train to Clark College on a sunday afternoon only to find out that the #25 St.Johns bus has quit service at 4:18 pm? And if you are going to Salmon Creek no bus service at all.
bonziyancey56 — March 9, 2010 at 8:18 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
I agree with Goldenoldie, JohnCasey, Watcher, and LewWaters. I couldn't have said it better!
We left Gresham area years ago when they first talked of the rail. We knew what it would do to the area and it did. I don't want to see the samething happen here in Vancouver. I urge everyone to drive out to Gresham area and check for themselves to see how it has ruined neighborhood after neighborhood and businesses.
RedsRBest — March 9, 2010 at 8:38 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Seems like initially it's a question of higher up front capital cost or higher operating cost. If I'm reading between the lines though, the 17th alignment would bring more economic development.
LB — March 9, 2010 at 8:46 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
"Start at 102nd Ave and go east to 181st and see what an eyesore it really is."
Do you remember that same stretch before light rail? THAT was an eyesore.
After light rail, property values along E. Burnside have risen steadily and always more than the non-rail properties a few blocks away -- including residential. The market has clearly said two thumbs up to a multi-million dollar investment.
The downside was the brutal construction period.
JaMi — March 9, 2010 at 8:55 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
I prefer buses too, but the problem with buses is that there's no assurance they'll be there 20 years from now.
JaMi — March 9, 2010 at 8:57 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
light rail is coming! about time for Vancouver.....stop whining about it already! the new light rail in Seattle goes through neighborhoods and it has brought in more business, through out the line. Time to grow up Vancouver!
sdouglas — March 9, 2010 at 9:41 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
I'm concerned that light rail will only bring more criminals, druggies, and transients to the area. I've spent a lot of time around the Gateway transit center in east Portland and all I can say is it is not a pleasant place to be.
ab23 — March 9, 2010 at 9:47 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
sdouglas - whining is all most of the vocal minority has, because the rational arguments aren't in their favor. They jump up and down like spoiled little kids saying "BUT I DON'T WANT IT!". As if that's fact enough.
LB — March 9, 2010 at 9:47 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Sorry JaMi, RedsRBest is absolutely right. East Burnside from I'd say...about 122nd on out to Gresham...was a nice stretch of town BEFORE the lightrail ruined it. 102nd was already congested and the lightrail compounded the problem - never helped the situation. I had read recently on TriMet's website that the East Rockwood Lightrail transit station was closed in February.
Bankster-O, what makes you think lightrail is an improvement over commuter rail systems? To me, lightrail is too dated for its own good AND it is an eyesore with all the overhead lines. Commuter rail would have been much more efficient to move Vancouverites into the core, right at a major Max station next to the railroad depot.
S Douglas, as long as the project is still in the planning stages, our public input is still in our favor. Also SD, there is the commuter rail as well...not just lightrail.
goldenoldie — March 9, 2010 at 9:50 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
I do not know if a county wide initiative could be started that calls for a up or down vote, county wide on Light Rail and if it is possible. It has to happen!
There just needs to be a definitive vote of all of the people of Clark County on this subject, ASAP!
Paul_Edgar — March 9, 2010 at 9:54 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
ab23, you truly cannot use that as the only excuse for increased problems of crime and drugs. Yes, I agree that it compounds the problem, but we already HAVE that issue here. When I-205 was built, the issues were already here. The bridge compounded that problem as well.
LB, all along, I haven't shared the NIMBY attitude. I carried the attitude that there are better solutions, but it was shared over deaf ears.
goldenoldie — March 9, 2010 at 9:54 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
GO I'm not speaking about you - you've voiced some well thought out arguments.
LB — March 9, 2010 at 9:59 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Regarding two issues: fare collection and "transients" I guess we could call them. Someone once posted an excellent suggestion - why are on/off points not designed in such a way to help prevent people from accessing the train without a ticket? Portland Trimet's enforcement of ticket purchases is terrible. Go ride the max without purchasing a ticket. See how long it takes to get caught, if you EVER do.
LB — March 9, 2010 at 10:02 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Again I could only support it and just a little if it was on the East side on 205 to 138th. I-5 to CC is nuts.
JonAlldritt — March 9, 2010 at 10:05 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
LB, I understand - just clearing the air a bit. What you are talking about with regards to the fare collection and transients...check out the BART system. In San Francisco, you pay before you enter the commuter rail system. You must validate your ticket before going through the turnstyles (I guess that's what you call them). Security is right there in the booth and the security on the rails is strict. I felt very safe on BART.
goldenoldie — March 9, 2010 at 10:08 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
That's not even a reason. When was the wheel invented? There is no age limit on solutions, if they are the correct one for the situation. Do you see the cost of fuel coming down dramatically or do you think it will continue to rise?
That would be a good reason if we were talking about our density now. This area continues to grow. Look for it to be more dense in 20 years.
No mass transit system ever pays for itself.
Are we going to be in a perpetual recession? Construction isn't due to start until when? Construction and related jobs won't cut down our unemployment rate?
See above my comment about fare collection points. I can't help that poorer people are more likely to use mass transit. Perhaps you'd rather we gather up everyone under the poverty line and ship them away somewhere else?
LB — March 9, 2010 at 10:37 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
YAY, Vancouver is joining the 21st century, FINALLY.
tfest — March 9, 2010 at 10:50 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Couple points to make:
1) If they plan on running light rail thru residential neighborhoods at least have the decency to rezone the area for commercial purposes so the poor people who are faced with having to watch trains run up and down the street can have the option of selling their property at a higher price than if it were to remain residential.
2) The security issue could and should be addressed. Honor systems are stupid because certain people will always take advantage of it. Riders, in some way, should have to have their tickets validate upon boarding. Also, light rail should, at a minimum, have a camera based security surveillance system at stations and on trains.
wdkeisala — March 9, 2010 at 11:02 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
I agree with the posters above on many points, but the ones that resonate with me the most are: 1. We need a commuter link to Portland far more than a Trolley car type system through downtown and Interstate Blvd. 2. Aligning the system with I5 and going all the way to Salmon Creek Via the 99th Street Park n' Ride is a much better idea.
BART in the Bay Area of California is used as a main link in a "hub and spoke" transportation system, as is MARTA in Atlanta, Georgia. The rail system feeds central stations, and then the bus system takes riders to less dense areas of the city, or within the central district. The airlines figured this out years ago: Move all the passengers through central hubs, then use smaller planes to get the passengers to less "Popular" destinations. FEDEX figured out it out years ago: Collect all the packages into one area, re-sort and ship back to the proper destination. THEN put it on a small carrier (truck) for its final delivery. C-Tran should be pushing for the system to reach into existing Park n' Ride locations so that they can restructure their local routes to match the Hub and spoke concept. As currently proposed, MAX to Clark County is destined to be a failure. We should be focused on how we can leverage the system to meet OUR needs, not how Portland has done it in the past.
cvyoung — March 9, 2010 at 11:12 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
To say anywhere downtown Vancouver is thriving is ridiculous. A community with Vancouver's population should have a real downtown. We don't! We are simply an extension of Portland, with strip malls. A light rail would not only be environmentally sound, could help people without a vehicle have transportation to work, and could (lord forbid, huh?) help Vancouver come into it's own identity. When I watched the Olympics and saw Vancouver, B.C., I said, good grief, what went so stagnant here. Sidewalks would help, a true downtown would really make a difference, and the light rail would bring us into the 21st Century.
Auggie — March 9, 2010 at 11:15 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
I oppose any rail alignment that goes through any neighborhood and rips apart the very fabric that keeps it together. Up Columbia, down McLoughlin or whether its across 17th they are all bad ideas. At least one of our city council members should object and object loudly....but not a one has or will. I would only support a light rail option if it ran straight up I5 with the 'New Bridge' and dead-ended at the old Vancouver Visitors site (aka: Clark College). This alignment wouldn't rip apart any neighborhoods and would diminish the concerns and lessen the opportunity for crime to advance. But this doesn't work for CRC or the DBO's. Think about it...if you run that link and it works then expand East, West or North. Then the city leaders could expand on an idea / project that is a working success. If I had been appointed that would be my position.
javajenkins — March 9, 2010 at 11:20 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Easy solution: Charge the riders the REAL cost of a ticket, there will be no riders and therefore no light rail.
RUSKI — March 9, 2010 at 11:23 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Hey Auggie...did you catch the fact that Vancouver BC people are facing a huge tax increase to support that growth and especially the growth for hosting the Olympics. The PEOPLE didn't get a chance to voice their YES or NO vote. But now they are facing huge tax increases because ALL of Vancouver BC is suffering. We need to progress at a educated pace not a pace dictated by anxiety over being a bedroom community.
javajenkins — March 9, 2010 at 11:25 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
CVYoung you hit the nail on the head. We are approaching this whole project wrong. Light rail makes some sense when applied in a hub and spoke methodology. Utilize buses for inter-connecting and keeping the neighborhoods....quaint.
javajenkins — March 9, 2010 at 11:28 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Light rail will be a huge benefit to Clark County. So much complaining in these comments with no long term vision. Downtown Vancouver is wasting away and has been for decades, light rail is a way to inject new life into it, and at the same time make commuting to Portland much easier. Light rail is the future. It seems like most here would like to just wait another few decades before acknowledging that the current bridge needs replacement...that does not represent good planning. If Vancouver is to rebuilt itself it needs a new bridge and light rail. Think forward, folks, not backwards. Politicizing this issue misses the point, this infrastructure is needed and not moving forward with it puts Clark County at a disadvantage as the metro area continues to grow. This is the one and only chance to secure rights of way for the rail lines, we don't want to miss this chance.
tSamson — March 9, 2010 at 11:29 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
As someone who rents one of the homes that will be torn down when they do the 17th street option I think I have more than a right to comment on what's going on. I have worked in downtown Portland for over 12 years and have been riding the express bus to downtown for about 3 years. All of you who are saying we need to get into the 21st century need to get a clue on what you will be getting with the light rail to NOWHERE. The article says the 17th street option will add 7 seconds to a 44 minute trip. Right now I can get to downtown Vancouver to downtown Portland in 30 minutes or less on most days and have only had a couple of days where it took close to the 44 minute ride they are so excited about. It would be one thing to lose the roof over my families head for progress but I don't consider this progress.
S_A_M — March 9, 2010 at 11:31 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
S_A_M bingo!!!
javajenkins — March 9, 2010 at 11:32 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Here's the million dollar proposal. Privatize C-Tran and the light rail system. Would any enterprising individual take on a business model that never makes any money. Would any enterprising individual take on a business model where every wakening day they have to worry about bankruptcy. No. They would figure out a way to MAKE it SUPPORT Itself. Our city leaders need to create a much larger project that can sustain itself....broading the view to include other counties. Get their weigh-in. Create a mega-monster consortium for mass transit. Model it after bigger cities where it works and not after Portland where it is a loser.
javajenkins — March 9, 2010 at 11:45 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
The only way light-rail makes sense is if they do it right. Put light-rail across both bridges.
On the east side, LR leaves I-205 and goes east to 164th, heads north to Mill Plain, then West to downtown Vancouver. The East side line also continues down 164th North to 4th Plain, then west to SR503, then North to Battleground.
On the west side, LR goes north to the Fairgrounds, then east to Battleground.
That will never happen though. So since it won't be done right, may as well scrap the whole plan.
Craig_Sayre — March 9, 2010 at 12:02 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Craig_Sayre exactly. And as far as the Cougar poster it is FACT crime has increased with the Portland light rail lines. The Gateway, Gresham and Beaverton extensions are a nightmare for a person to ride alone at night...and especially if you are a woman. IE: why do you think TriMet has had to hire security guards on all light rail routes. This is why we can be sure it will cross over to Vancouver. And, yes we already have crime of all sort but why invite more when our Police and Fire departments are already short-changed by our city leaders.
javajenkins — March 9, 2010 at 12:28 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
We will never fix crime by dealing with the symptoms.
LB — March 9, 2010 at 12:46 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
So if dealing with symptoms isn't the fix, then what is? Going to the root of the problem? Well, the root is degenerates procreating. Therefore, the only logical solution to crime is a right proper sterilization/castration program. Can I get an amen?
JiveSoulBro — March 9, 2010 at 1:03 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Hey, I have an idea. Lets cry about light-rail some more.
Or how about not. Let's usher in some modern, beneficial services to our city and enjoy life in this wonderful area.
revrendmaynard — March 9, 2010 at 1:04 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
According to studies, lightrail construction costs between $20 million per mile (Baltimore) and $179M (Seattle). The cost to build in Clark County should be similar to what it cost Portland for the recent Interstate Ave line - which was just over $90M per mile.
http://www.lightrailnow.org/myths/m_por_2006-01a.htm http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Light_rail
Craig_Sayre — March 9, 2010 at 1:41 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Let's stop building anything and just put things back to the way they were in 1957. I am voting for 1957 but it looks like some folks here might want to go back a little farther. Just think. We could make everything the way it was in 1957 including the real estate prices and no one would ever want to come live here or invest in the area, right? Let's outlaw change. That wouldn't lead to big government would it?
tmgibs34 — March 9, 2010 at 1:48 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
A mere $6,000,000,000.00 should about do it...plus the cost of the I-5 bridge of course.
Craig_Sayre — March 9, 2010 at 2:05 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
What I find interesting in this discussion are the posts against light rail which mention costs, location, etc., as opposed to those pro-light rail writers who rely on snide remarks accusing opponents of being "old fashioned" and wanting to vote the 1950's back into existence.
This rudeness and lack of reasoning reminded me of G.K. Chesteron's remark about his being, "..quite content to be behind the times when I see the ghastly people who are abreast of the times, and the still more ghastly people who are ahead of the times."
Considering the facts of cost, crime, lack of need, silly location, etc., I'm with Chesterton on this one.
Dagney — March 9, 2010 at 2:38 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Vancouver IS NOT a big city...if you look at the actual downtown area, it MIGHT BE a medium sized town. But its "suburbs" are all over the county, and spreading like wildfire with sub-division after sub-division, which are relatively closed units. If we just must have light rail, do it so that people will have a reason to ride it: go north, south, east and west, up and down 205 as well as I-5, out to the "outlying" areas to the various "park & rides", using the leeways of the highway system that we have now. Public transportation is supposed to CONNECT, not destroy, neighborhoods.
penny3 — March 9, 2010 at 2:50 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Light rail would only be successful if it tied into exisitng mass transit. A line up the middle of the I 205 bridge to Vancouver Mall where C-Tran already operates a hub makes the most sense. It is more accessable to east siders and does not "ruin" any quaint neighborhood street. Eventually it could go further north (again up the I 205 corridor) to Salmon Creek C-Tran center, then east to Camas/Washougal and west to downtown Vancouver (if there is a downtown by then). Clark county does need light rail as a way for commuters to get around. I would gladly give up my round trip trek into Portland every day for work in my private vehicle if I had a viable way to get there from the Washington side.
cgale45 — March 9, 2010 at 2:53 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Planning, folks. We don't get to the future without planning for it. What if NYC or Paris had never taken the initiative to build rail? I suspect that everyone that posts comments against building light rail into Vancouver are those who never actually leave Vancouver. Further, interstates (which I-5 is one) carry billions of dollars in freight. Ports don't function well without infrastructure, cities don't function well without infrastructure and the 21st century requires a World Is Flat competitive view of a global landscape where every country, state, county and city is required to compete with other countries, states, counties and cities in an innovative way that requires proper planning and investment. A new bridge with light rail is part of such an investment. And for those who think that light rail is required to be profitable: public transportation is a service, a very good service that moves the best cities in the world forward. Lastly, there are probably some planners in Minneapolis that wish they'd replaced their bridge sooner. Regardless, light rail looks like it's coming so most of you should just get on the train and smile.
tSamson — March 9, 2010 at 3:01 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
It's funny how everyone else seems to have common sense. The trouble is the scumbags who are making the decisions.
Bart Hansen...you know better, so make your mark now. Testify!
JiveSoulBro — March 9, 2010 at 3:03 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
If the costs are as high as are being stated here and various other sites, it would be economically more efficient and equally as eco-pc to simply purchase everybody who drives to Portland for work a Segway scooter.
rlgaskin — March 9, 2010 at 3:06 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
I suppose if we had anywhere near the population of what Paris and NYC had when they started their respective systems, we would all be more inclined to go along with the lightrail crowd. The larger the population base, the lower the cost per taxpayer.
As it is, LR proponents are asking a relatively tiny support base to install a multi-billion dollar system. It just doesn't add up economically.
On the other hand, if LR proponents were willing to find the serveral billions of dollars needed....
Craig_Sayre — March 9, 2010 at 3:12 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Light Rail northbound is going to run in front of my office no matter which allignment is chosen. We will lose a block's worth of parking spaces, but life goes on. In 30 years we will all use Light Rail. Why fight it now?
E_Terrific — March 9, 2010 at 4:24 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
I guess to sum it up everybody here should show up on March 15th to voice our opinions and concerns.
Here's a little history lesson. Back when Portland had the trolley system it was privately owned by PGE. It was called the Portland Traction Company. When buses came along, and the tracks were tore up or covered over, it became Rose City Transit Co. Again privately owned. Somewhere around 1970 the local governments decided to end the private factor and took it over. Ever since then Tri-Met has wielded it over three counties. Now look where they are at. Every thing they do has to be subsidized by businesses and government.
There is a reason privately owned won't work. The government has mucked it up so bad no one in their right mind would ever start up a bus company for profit. There would be no good business model and the regs they would have to follow would eat up anything that a private company would expect to garner.
People are sick and tired of subsidizing government run entities such as this and anything else the government buy's into (see Hilton) and see it run into the ground.
Look, I don't care if you want lite-rail or not but think of how it will be paid for. I don't believe it should be on the backs of citizens who, for what ever reason, wouldn't use it in the first place. Judging by the tremendous amount of comments here I would say that we still don't want it here in the form it is being presented to us, the public. Goodnight and God bless.
JohnCasey — March 9, 2010 at 7:08 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Craig_Sayre, Paris had a population of 3.3M when they began building their subways, Portland as an MSA has a population of 2.56M, and today rights of way are far more difficult to acquire - but such debates are worthless. I would argue that we start thinking like a metro area and like state-of-the-art city(s) or we'll be left behind. Again, if you don't plan you don't succeed. Public transportation is at the heart of every great city in the world, to skimp on investment here is a poor, short-sighted decision. Also, the over-inflated cost estimates within these comments are meant as a scare tactic from the gun rack contingent.
tSamson — March 9, 2010 at 8:51 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Paris had a population of 3.3M tSamson — March 9, 2010 at 8:51 p.m
That's correct. But why are you comparing it to Portland Metro? They're not going to help us build a Clark County Transit system. We have a population of just over 400,000. We simply can't afford to do what major metropolitan areas have done. We have the beginnings of a bus transit system. We should concentrate on making that work (yes, it's broken) rather than spending ourselves into oblivion on a lightrail system.
Craig_Sayre — March 9, 2010 at 9:04 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Paris has greater tourisem and higher taxes.
JonAlldritt — March 9, 2010 at 9:17 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
I used to think that light rail brought crime and drugs, but I did some research and found that the crime rate didn't measurably rise with light rail.
During that research, I was surprised to discover that there were some other things to be concerned about with light rail: 1) It's ugly. 2) It's dangerous. People get killed on the tracks because the train is fairly quiet. 3) It takes away bus service. I know- how could that be? Well, the expense of light rail means the transit system cuts bus service to the lesser-used areas. So the people that should be helped... aren't.
The research I read was from populations much like ours- not densely populated like New York, DC, San Francisco, London, etc. Just google "crime rates and light rail" if you want to start reading.
I'm not at all thrilled about the possibilities of light rail coming to Vancouver. I think a vote would be a good thing- see what the people want instead of pushing us into it.
If this does happen, we do need to get away from the "honor system" of Portland's MAX and do something like BART where people can't even get to the trains until they have paid.
louielouie — March 9, 2010 at 9:31 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
We have lots of empty busses already. clarkcountie — March 9, 2010 at 9:30 p.m
Yes. That's because the system is broken. C-Tran has the most convoluted routing plan I've ever seen. It takes two hours to go from Ward Rd & 76th to the Fisher Transit station. That's ridiculous. They need to hire someone who knows something about planning routes and put the current planners to work as drivers.
Craig_Sayre — March 10, 2010 at 9:51 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
This is not solely a CC issue, it's a metro issue.
tSamson — March 10, 2010 at 12:03 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
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