Open Forum, Nov. 14-20

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364 comments

Comments

Good Morning Vancouver!

Anyone catch the Ducks game or watch the championship drag races over the weekend?

ELISI — November 14, 2011 at 6:37 a.m. ( | suggest removal


Good morning, ELISI. I didn't see the entire game but I did see highlights of the game. Looks like the Ducks have moved into 4th Place again. So what do you think about the Occupy Portland issue. What a mess those two parks were!!! It sure would be nice if someone with an empty lot could provide a place for the folks to make their stance...people working together, you know.

Honestly, I believe the entire issue with regards to Mayor Adams has for the most part been played out very well. The City of Portland is definitely using brains instead of brawn this time around.

goldenoldie — November 14, 2011 at 7:04 a.m. ( | suggest removal


Morning to the both of you! Sorry Elisi, but the Penn verse NE was on my schedule for this weekend. : ) What a great game.

As for the Occupy Portland, sorry but I don't think they have a real clue how to make change and taking over a park isn't the way to do so. All they proved is they can destroy a park and not pay for it. There are ways to protest and not cost the taxpayers of the Community. Besides they have no leadership or game plan?? What a waste.

karma — November 14, 2011 at 7:14 a.m. ( | suggest removal


Oh, I totally agree with you, karma. As I've said from the beginning...

The folks at Occupy Portland could learn a lesson or two from the folks at Occupy Vancouver. Maybe a 24 hour sit in...in front of the World Trade Center or Bank of America's Portland headquarters would have been okay, but not what I term as a lame excuse of a campout to bring in the fringe problematic segment of society who has nothing better to do than spark violence, attract narcotics and the criminal element and destroy public property which belongs to EVERYONE as well as the property of those who are striving to make a living, not just those who haven't a clue as to what is going on with regards to why the occupations began in the first place.

The wrong message has been shared, partly due to the lack of control by the people to show respect for the rest of us with their filth as evidenced by what was left behind...as well as partly due to the negative publicity by the media.

goldenoldie — November 14, 2011 at 7:28 a.m. ( | suggest removal


Morning Golden, Well IMO the protesters should just go home during the night and return during the day. The same message can get across, no need to camp out 24/7.

They need to move their protest from the cities now to the Capital steps of each state. Then on to the steps of the White House.

The parks are destroyed and will have to be completely reseeded and I heard at least one tree will have to be replaced at the cost of $15,000. The cost of clean up, man power from the PPD, EMT's and fire dept. The cost of those that have died or hurt is unmeasurable.

I have said this before and will say again..they have every right to stand and protest, what they do not have is the right to break the law.
By marching and holding the protest without the required permits is breaking the law. By camping out in the parks when the law is clear "no camping" they are breaking the law.
I know sometimes one has to break the law in order to get the law to listen, but IMO this isn't going to work in this situation.

ELISI — November 14, 2011 at 7:33 a.m. ( | suggest removal


Karma, we watched the Penn vs Ne also...both good games.

ELISI — November 14, 2011 at 7:34 a.m. ( | suggest removal


Of course we can't have people protesting, what do they think it's a constitutional right or something?

frobert — November 14, 2011 at 8:46 a.m. ( | suggest removal


Hey Frobert, nobody's saying they can't protest but there's a right way and a wrong way to do it...and maliciously destroying property, assaulting people and drug OD's are NOT the right way to do things...ANY time.

goldenoldie — November 14, 2011 at 8:52 a.m. ( | suggest removal


It seems obvious that the vast majority of them were peaceably assembling. Even if I don't agree with their statements, I support fully the First Amendment.

frobert — November 14, 2011 at 9 a.m. ( | suggest removal


Good Morning all, Of course I watched the Duck's game yesterday, what a great game and so sorry to Stanford but you got you streak broken. The better team won.

As for Occupy Portland, what a bunch of garbage, both left in the park and in their thinking. If you are going to protest something, pick who you are going to protest and why, and do it. If you are going to camp, get a permit or pay a fee in a state park and camp.

I remember the protests in the 60's & 70's and they were protesting the draft. They would go down to the draft board and picket in front of the building. They didn't go to the park and take a nap.

The key to protesting something or someone is to make them uncomfortable or ticked off.

hawkeye — November 14, 2011 at 9:01 a.m. ( | suggest removal


Alabama produce farmers, like Wa apple growers, are having difficulty finding enough pickers. Alabama passed it's own immigration laws, driving the pickers away. Locals can't or won't make up the difference. Evidently, long, hard hours for peanuts isn't enough to entice the locals into the fields. The ones that do show up are not near as productive as the absent pickers.

Alabama, like Eastern Washington, is one typically red area, and the Republicans are pushing the new immigration laws. I guess you'd better be careful what you wish for, you might get it.

mrd — November 14, 2011 at 11:10 a.m. ( | suggest removal


"People who individually earned more than a million dollars in 2009 even managed to collect a total of nearly $21 million in unemployment insurance."

"From tax write-offs for gambling losses, vacation homes, and luxury yachts to subsidies for their ranches and estates, the government is subsidizing the lifestyles of the rich and famous," wrote Coburn, an Oklahoma Republican, in an accompanying letter. "Multimillionaires are even receiving government checks for not working. This welfare for the well-off -- costing billions of dollars a year -- is being paid for with the taxes of the less fortunate."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/11/14/tom-coburn-30-billion-millionaires-tax-breaks_n_1092692.html

nailingit — November 14, 2011 at 11:14 a.m. ( | suggest removal


mrd — November 14, 2011 at 11:10 a.m.

"Locals can't or won't make up the difference. Evidently, long, hard hours for peanuts isn't enough to entice the locals into the fields."

This is where the free market should kick in and wages should increase. Instead of complaining that they have a lack of slave wage labor they need to provide wage and conditions that will attract workers.

frobert — November 14, 2011 at 11:43 a.m. ( | suggest removal


OK, say Farmer A in Alabama pays a decent enough wage to fill his labor needs. As Alabama has the strictest laws concerning migrant labor and Georgia doesn't, Farmer B in Georgia can harvest his identical crop much cheaper. Farmer A can't compete with Farmer B and goes under. So if uniform labor laws are enacted at the federal level to level the picking, er playing field, we'll all pay more for labor-intensive, domestic agricultural products.

In this farmer's case, he raised cucumbers for pickles. Set up a pickle processing facility 1 mile north of Mexico and watch the farmers suffer.

I wouldn't want to bet American consumers will pay more for domestically produced food. We don't do it for much of anything else.

mrd — November 14, 2011 at 12:14 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Elsi & Hawk

Goo DUCKS.... Hope the BCS gets it right and the two best teams do get to play for the NC... Al doesn't even have an offense....

The occupiers need to protest in front of the folks that are making the decisions they protesting over. Not sitting in a park damaging the grounds to the point of contamination. That only makes there protest that much less viable to the mainstream public and voters. I watched several interviews and was amazed at the responses to the TV interviewers questions. Not many could complete a sentence except the guy with the beard.. Getting in front of the capital with 20,000 to 50,000 would send a better message than a few hundred dismantling a city park..

vanwadreamer — November 14, 2011 at 12:30 p.m. ( | suggest removal


mrd — November 14, 2011 at 12:14 p.m

The Federal Government creates immigration laws not the state, Alabama has the same laws as everyone else. Alabama has created laws for state enforcement, and the Federal court has upheld these laws. If an Alabama farmer faces unfair competition because of farmers in other states illegally hiring undocumented workers and paying them a substandard wage, there is recourse through the court system for restitution.

frobert — November 14, 2011 at 12:31 p.m. ( | suggest removal


"""It seems obvious that the vast majority of them were peaceably assembling. Even if I don't agree with their statements, I support fully the First Amendment."""

And I don't???

The *"minority"* of them who climbed on light poles at trees, breaking street markers, damaging the trees to the point of imminent destruction to the trees, taking "Road Closed" signs away from their designated location, damaging entire parks, risking the health and welfare of each member of Occupy Portland, leaving trash everywhere without any regard to their fellow man, trashing public restrooms, smashing Molotov Cocktails on the doorstep of the World Trade Center, hoarding chunks of concrete and boards with nails hammered into them as weapons for possible confrontation, spraying graffiti on police cars, etching words on retailer windows, exchanging narcotics and alcohol, multiple stabbings, theft, assaulting news reporters and shoving cops into moving vehicles as well as throwing an incendiary device at a cop...

is NOT what I consider Peaceable Assembly.

goldenoldie — November 14, 2011 at 1:19 p.m. ( | suggest removal


You can add to the list the smashed windows at local banks in Downtown Portland as well as the incendiary devices found in a vehicle of known Occupy Portland participants.

goldenoldie — November 14, 2011 at 1:21 p.m. ( | suggest removal


fro-Your fave Gary Johnson is to appear on Dylan Ratigan's show in one minute. MSNBC.

nailingit — November 14, 2011 at 1:27 p.m. ( | suggest removal


goldenoldie — November 14, 2011 at 1:19 p.m.

A little unconfirmed propaganda and we can just flush the constitution down the toilet?

frobert — November 14, 2011 at 1:44 p.m. ( | suggest removal


nailingit — November 14, 2011 at 1:27 p.m.

I missed it.

frobert — November 14, 2011 at 1:45 p.m. ( | suggest removal


goldenoldie- It's too bad a few are corrupting the message. At this point, Occupy imo, needs a personified voice and a simple singular agenda. If it's "take the money out of politics", "taxation", "regulatory reform", etc. let it be pounded home by the movement. If the face is Moore, Ratigan, Tiabbi, etc., then so be it. In doing so, it opens the door to other issues, which currently are clouded by lack of direction or focus. I hope the bad apples don't soil the message too much.

nailingit — November 14, 2011 at 1:46 p.m. ( | suggest removal


frobert,

ONCE AGAIN..

I have said this before and will say again..they have every right to stand and protest, what they do not have is the right to break the law.

ELISI — November 14, 2011 at 1:46 p.m. ( | suggest removal


nailingit — November 14, 2011 at 1:46 p.m.

My thoughts exactly!!!

goldenoldie — November 14, 2011 at 1:49 p.m. ( | suggest removal


ELISI — November 14, 2011 at 1:46 p.m.

I have no problem with those that commit criminal acts being treated accordingly, I do have a problem with people being treated like criminals just for exercising their constitutional rights.

frobert — November 14, 2011 at 1:50 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Frobert, care to explain your little bit of "unconfirmed propaganda?" Documented evidence...all of it, Fro. Did you not see the man who threw the flaming device at the cop on the news the other night? The same man who was ousted out BY not only the cops but by those who insisted upon a peaceful demonstration? Did you not see the articles all over the web about the three bank windows smashed by those self-proclaimed anarchists who are against Big Banks...the fringe plaguing the Occupy protestors? Did you not see the folks who were helping the cops remove the chunks of cement out of a tent which also had incendiary devices? Did you not see the report about the Occupy Portland promoters who had turned in the brats who sprayed windows and cop cars with spray paint??? Did you not see in the live video stream on the news where the guy was climbing off of the light pole and twisted the metal street signs as he climbed off of something which is not to be used as a climbing pole? Did you NOT see the filth left behind by the supposed "peaceful protestors" who couldn't clean up after themselves??? Do I really need to go on???

*WHERE HAVE YOU BEEN, FRO????*

goldenoldie — November 14, 2011 at 1:55 p.m. ( | suggest removal


nailingit, I agree with you all but about Moore, Ratigan,and Tiabbi.

A well known face and name will not get the attention as a unknown will. M. Moore actually got booed and asked about his private aircraft, among other things when he showed at the Portland protest from the protesters. He refused to answer and soon left the protest.

They need to set up chapters in each state, protest at the Capital steps in each state then take it to the White House.
Instead of taking this protest to the people, it needs to aimed at those who have been elected.

ELISI — November 14, 2011 at 1:57 p.m. ( | suggest removal


goldenoldie — November 14, 2011 at 1:55 p.m.

So if you see it on the news it is confirmed fact? Now that is what's wrong with this Country. Go ahead and give away your constitutional rights if you want, I will fight to the death to keep mine.

frobert — November 14, 2011 at 2 p.m. ( | suggest removal


ELISI, I like your ideas. Now that would definitely grab the attention of the elected ones.

goldenoldie — November 14, 2011 at 2 p.m. ( | suggest removal


fro- I have to say Governor Johnson was quite impressive. He described most of America as "Classic Liberals", and would vote for him. But I believe he was quite liberal with the term classic liberal. ;))

nailingit — November 14, 2011 at 2:04 p.m. ( | suggest removal


frobert, I did not see any of the protesters being handled like they were criminals.

I didn't see bean bags shot into the crowds, nor tear gas, I didn't see LEO's slamming people to the ground handcuffing them.
Nor did I see any of the LEO's using their riot batons like clubs on anyone.

The protesters that were arrested were done so with patience and was peaceful. They were only arrested cause they broke the law.

ELISI — November 14, 2011 at 2:06 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Guess you didn't watch the live stream, huh Fro??? I saw what I saw. The FACT IS my friend...the fringe that has infiltrated the Occupy Protest is ruining EVERYTHING that was originally intended as far as getting their voice to be heard in DC. The FACT IS you fail to accept that which is truth. The FACT IS ruining two park blocks to set up a shanty town dwelling in muck 6" deep is ineffective. The FACT IS drug overdoses and stabbings along with petty theft and other crimes plagued the encampment. The FACT IS the folks with Occupy Portland have diminished their own attempts to be heard by allowing the fringe to do what they were doing. The FACT IS Occupy Portland has to come up with a new strategy for a more effective and peaceful demonstration and I believe that ELISI has it right on the mark.

The FACT IS the City of Portland diminished the entire demonstration by leading the people to where they could camp till Portland said no more. The FACT IS the City of Portland ALLOWED the demonstrators to march as long as the PPD could direct them down the appropriate streets. The FACT IS the Occupy Portland demonstrators were only PUPPETS to Mayor Adams and the PPD. The FACT IS...it isn't working!!!

goldenoldie — November 14, 2011 at 2:06 p.m. ( | suggest removal


ELISI — November 14, 2011 at 1:57 p.m

I would agree with one exception. If the protest is aimed at say, B of A, then they should be at each and every branch. Or if it is aimed at Wall Street, then they should be at every stock broker in every city.

The biggest problem with these people is they have no focus or direction. They need to be better organized and don't need to be camping. They just need to be at their target location an hour before the workers show up.

hawkeye — November 14, 2011 at 2:09 p.m. ( | suggest removal


ELISI- A recognizable/respected face to the movement would lend it credibility and garner media attention if the person fit with the targeted message imo. Just threw names out that came to mind that have been close to Occupy.

If the message is wealth disparity, no one better than Bernie Sanders if a politician were to take it on.

If the message is taxation, a Warren Buffet type to be the face.

If the message is legalizing pot, it could lend itself to Cheech & Chong! :))

No one would be perfect, just someone to hoist the neon sign.

nailingit — November 14, 2011 at 2:16 p.m. ( | suggest removal


hawkeye — November 14, 2011 at 2:09 p.m.

I really believe it is not only B of A, Wall street, it also a protest to our elected.

You are correct they do need to organize, like I said, set up chapters in each state. Since they have already have spoken up about Wall street and the big banks, now is the time to take that message to the state capital steps and on to the White House.

I firmly beleive that thie message will not be heard unless they follow those steps.

ELISI — November 14, 2011 at 2:17 p.m. ( | suggest removal


nailingit, I disagree, the whole reason behind the OWS group is people just like those you listed!

It will take someone an average Joe to lead.

ELISI — November 14, 2011 at 2:19 p.m. ( | suggest removal


ELISI — November 14, 2011 at 2:06 p.m.

When the police lined up armed with riot gear and clubs, and physically pushed protesters out of the way, the protesters were treated like criminals. I the protesters had used the same tactic on police it would have been perceived as assault.

frobert — November 14, 2011 at 2:22 p.m. ( | suggest removal


ELISI@2:19- I'll agree to disagree! Famous or not won't matter in the long run anyway. I personally don't blame the people that took advantage of the options available to them through Government regulation or the lack thereof. Our system requires systemic change. We need leaders that bring foresight to the problem rather than hindsight.

What did Cheech do wrong! Say it ain't so!!!

nailingit — November 14, 2011 at 2:31 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Matt Wastdrowski- Not to beat a dead horse but it's Monday. Why did Allen receive your death blow?

nailingit — November 14, 2011 at 2:34 p.m. ( | suggest removal


frobert, do you still not get it?
The protesters were breaking the law. NOT the LEO's

Which would you wanted frobert, the way it turned out with pushing or for the LEO's slamming people to the ground cuffing them, busting heads with the riot clubs and throwing them in jail?
Do you realize that pushing did not hurt anyone!!

As it went down the police dept will not be sued, the city of Portland will not be sued. Jails are not over flowing with arrests.

More than 50 people were put into residences or shelters that needed it. Medical was offered to all the protesters.

Go back and review what happened at Kent State..would you want that to happen again?

ELISI — November 14, 2011 at 2:39 p.m. ( | suggest removal


ELISI — November 14, 2011 at 2:39 p.m.

A few protesters may have been breaking the law, that fact in no way diminishes the other's right's to peaceably assemble. When a government official denies the constitutional right of a citizen, the official IS breaking the law, 18 USC section 242.

frobert — November 14, 2011 at 3:22 p.m. ( | suggest removal


frobert — November 14, 2011 at 3:22 p.m

And if you are standing out in the middle of the street, you are breaking the law. If you are camping without a permit, you are breaking the law. If you are ignoring directions of a Police officer, you are breaking the law. What don't you understand????

hawkeye — November 14, 2011 at 3:29 p.m. ( | suggest removal


hawkeye — November 14, 2011 at 3:29 p.m.

Contrary to popular belief police do not make up law as they go along and in most cases refusal to follow the "orders" of a police officer is a Constitutional right. What part of Constitution don't you understand??????

frobert — November 14, 2011 at 3:32 p.m. ( | suggest removal


The Occupy Wall Street demonstrations are "as American as apple pie," former Secretary of State Colin Powell said during a recent interview with CNN's Piers Morgan. According to Powell, there is plenty of justification for the movement's outrage, but also some reason for concern over its direction.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/11/11/colin-powell-occupy-wall-street_n_1088141.html

nailingit — November 14, 2011 at 3:33 p.m. ( | suggest removal


frobert — November 14, 2011 at 3:32 p.m.

Show me in the Constitution where is says you have the right to disobey a Police officer.

hawkeye — November 14, 2011 at 3:36 p.m. ( | suggest removal


And yes, they don't make up the laws but those laws are on the books and they are tasked with enforcing them. How does that violate the constitution?

hawkeye — November 14, 2011 at 3:39 p.m. ( | suggest removal


hawkeye & fro ... this sight speaks to point...

http://www.erowid.org/freedom/police/police_consent1.shtml

nailingit — November 14, 2011 at 3:39 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Just say no! Hey, that rings a bell! :))

nailingit — November 14, 2011 at 3:42 p.m. ( | suggest removal


That pretty much covers searches but not actual violations of the law.

hawkeye — November 14, 2011 at 3:50 p.m. ( | suggest removal


frobert,

ONE more time..

1. They were camping in the parks without a permit..law broken

2. Peaceably assembled WITHOUT a permit..law broken

3. Blocking traffic..law broken

4. Vandalism..law broken

5. Destruction of property..law broken

6. Illegal drug use..law broken

7. Drinking alcohol in a park..law broken

8. Littering..law broken

9. Physical and verbal assaults and some say harassment of citizens, business owners, LEO's, other members of Occupy..law broken

10. Theft from businesses..law broken

Need I say more??

ELISI — November 14, 2011 at 3:54 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Opps 1. should read..

Camping in city parks..law broken

There is NO camping in a city park

ELISI — November 14, 2011 at 4 p.m. ( | suggest removal


ELISI — November 14, 2011 at 3:54 p.m.

The first amendment does not limit the right to peaceably assemble to those with a permit. All of the other things you listed including camping where done by a minority and in no way diminishes the rights of those not breaking the law.

Need I say more?

frobert — November 14, 2011 at 4:11 p.m. ( | suggest removal


hawkeye — November 14, 2011 at 3:36 p.m.

Most of the bill of rights deals with the peoples rights to refuse orders from a government official. Nothing in the constitution deals with police as police are not authorized by the constitution.

frobert — November 14, 2011 at 4:13 p.m. ( | suggest removal


*Most of the bill of rights deals with the peoples rights to refuse orders from a government official.
frobert — November 14, 2011 at 4:13 p.m*

Does this mean then by law of the bill of rights I can refuse to be made to take Obama's Healthcare when it goes into effect?

ELISI — November 14, 2011 at 4:27 p.m. ( | suggest removal


ELISI — November 14, 2011 at 4:27 p.m.

That would be my opinion, but we have to wait for the Supreme Court on that one.

frobert — November 14, 2011 at 4:29 p.m. ( | suggest removal


frobert — November 14, 2011 at 4:13 p.m

No, but they are authorized by the State and Cities in the State and as such, they have the right to enforce the laws of the State and Cities.

You can argue with me all you want but I can prove to you I am right on this.

The next time you feel froggy, stand out in the middle of Broadway and refuse to move.

hawkeye — November 14, 2011 at 4:44 p.m. ( | suggest removal


hawkeye — November 14, 2011 at 4:44 p.m.

You listed "ignoring directions of a police officer" as a violation of the law, I rightfully pointed out that in and of its self that is not a violation of the law. You have not and can not prove that your statement was true. If I am standing in the road I may commit a civil infraction, however that has nothing to do with ignoring directions of a police officer.

frobert — November 14, 2011 at 4:50 p.m. ( | suggest removal


frobert — November 14, 2011 at 4:50 p.m.

If a Police officer tells you to pull your car over and you refuse, ***you will be arrested and charged with attempt to allude. ***

Go ahead, try it.

hawkeye — November 14, 2011 at 4:54 p.m. ( | suggest removal


sorry, elude.

hawkeye — November 14, 2011 at 4:58 p.m. ( | suggest removal


hawkeye — November 14, 2011 at 4:54 p.m.

Eluding a police officer and "ignoring directions" are two entirely different things. In actually the state supreme court has ruled that in order to be convicted of "eluding" a very specific set of circumstances must be met.

frobert — November 14, 2011 at 5:12 p.m. ( | suggest removal


hawkeye — November 14, 2011 at 4:58 p.m.

I'm not one to complain about spelling errors, I make more then my fair share.

frobert — November 14, 2011 at 5:14 p.m. ( | suggest removal


hawkeye — November 14, 2011 at 5:16 p.m

Can't support your argument so you revert to insults? I guess I shouldn't expect anything less.

frobert — November 14, 2011 at 5:21 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Eluding a police officer and "ignoring directions" are two entirely different things. In actually the state supreme court has ruled that in order to be convicted of "eluding" a very specific set of circumstances must be met.

frobert — November 14, 2011 at 5:12 p.m

Really? Show me

hawkeye — November 14, 2011 at 5:25 p.m. ( | suggest removal


It still boils down to, if you ignore a Police officer's directions to pull over, you are going to jail.

If a cop tells you to do something, like stop your car, quit hitting that kid, move out of the road, drop that gun. It's probably because you are doing something illegal and he has every right to do so and the constitution has nothing to do with it. And if you don't comply, you will probably go to jail. Don't believe me, please try it out yourself.

hawkeye — November 14, 2011 at 5:32 p.m. ( | suggest removal


hawkeye — November 14, 2011 at 5:32 p.m.

"If you are ignoring directions of a Police officer, you are breaking the law."
hawkeye — November 14, 2011 at 3:29 p.m.

Your words not mine. My statement was that in many cases refusing to comply with a police officer was a constitutional right. My statement holds true yours is false.

frobert — November 14, 2011 at 6:02 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Really? Show me

hawkeye — November 14, 2011 at 5:25 p.m.

http://caselaw.findlaw.com/wa-court-of-appeals/1412469.html

frobert — November 14, 2011 at 6:05 p.m. ( | suggest removal


frobert — November 14, 2011 at 6:05 p.m.

FAIL, try again. This has NOTHING to do with not complying and has everything to do with proof of being an officer.

hawkeye — November 14, 2011 at 6:32 p.m. ( | suggest removal


hawkeye — November 14, 2011 at 6:32 p.m.

It is in no way a fail and proves that in order to be convicted of eluding a very specific set of circumstances must be met. You have continued to fail to prove or deny your statement that

"If you are ignoring directions of a Police officer, you are breaking the law." hawkeye — November 14, 2011 at 3:29 p.m.

frobert — November 14, 2011 at 6:39 p.m. ( | suggest removal


***Searching for the common interests guys!***

it's here...otherwise fro would be on ignore by the whole list.

welcome to the columbian's unwelcome cousins, here in the dank, SO MUCH NICER THAN FACEBOOK basement :)

DeeLittle — November 14, 2011 at 6:52 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Fro: With each court case, it depends on the interpretation of the law by each judge in their decision. The case you spoke of entailed an undercover officer attempting to stop a person who clearly violated the law and knew it was a cop trying to stop his vehicle for which he refused. Since the officer's vehicle was not appropriately marked, the state could not prove their case.

In the matter of Portland Police officers in full riot gear and badges displayed along with the clear message on the speaker by the Mayor of the City of Portland that the people had to leave the park (a 3-day's notice of eviction in fact) due to concerns beyond the control of the folks with Occupy Portland in the manner of health and crime, the people refused to leave. They blocked traffic and sidewalks AND were clearly violating the Public Nuisance Noise rules of Portland. The conditions of the park blocks were deplorable, Fro. The situation was violating the rights of those in the surrounding area who clearly had a right to travel to and from their businesses without anything impeding their mobility. The people of Occupy Portland were clearly violating the law and each were facing misdemeanor charges.

No baton was raised to the point where injuries occurred...although some nudging was seen. The officers in riot gear stood their ground. Because they were prepared for an all out assault as witnessed in other states, they're the bad guys??? No tear gas, no pepper spray, no bean bags, nothing deployed...and you are saying THEY were causing problems for the protestors??? Well Fro...let's look at what the protestors had done to the cops...one officer had been pushed into the path of a bus while another officer was attacked and injured by one of the protestors. All in all, the City of Portland has been displaying exemplary restraints...even come to the aid of those who had overdosed, had been stabbed, had caused tension within the camp with others...yet the cops have NOT stopped the protestors from being able to assemble and voice their concerns - even worked diplomatically with those who were the voice of Occupy Portland...yet you still think the cops were in the wrong???

Enough is enough. Taking advantage of your freedom to assemble and to speak your mind to the point where health and safety is at risk, you have overstepped your bounds when it comes to the First Amendment.

They NEED to find another alternative yet still continue to voice their obvious concerns of 99% versus 1%.

goldenoldie — November 14, 2011 at 6:58 p.m. ( | suggest removal


hermon680, welcome to what some of us affectionately call the Forum as the Cellar where fine whines are produced!

goldenoldie — November 14, 2011 at 7:01 p.m. ( | suggest removal


It is in no way a fail and proves that in order to be convicted of eluding a very specific set of circumstances must be met.

frobert — November 14, 2011 at 6:39 p.m.

Yes, you are correct. First you must prove that you are in fact a Police officer. Second, the person being arrested must have done something wrong. Third, the person being arrested must be smarter than a rock. Sorry, you don't qualify.

hawkeye — November 14, 2011 at 7:10 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Also, it really bothers me that either you don't see the difference or aren't bright enough to actually figure this out. How do you not understand this?

hawkeye — November 14, 2011 at 7:15 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Welcome hermon680! ...after the suggestion of my wife,.." Did you make her mad? :))

"...glad to be here to day,..." Glad to have you!

...about me, a weird man..." You fit right in! Some of the women are even weirder!

"...cell phone jammer,..." What?!? You're cutting out. Go d to ave ou pos he e!

nailingit — November 14, 2011 at 7:56 p.m. ( | suggest removal


hawkeye & fro-I don't suppose any of the fine citizens that post here have been arrested. :))

Because I happen to know this guy {{8^0)) that behaved less than stellar on a couple of occasions back in the day. When you get arrested it doesn't matter crap from crimola what the constitution says or how you think the law should be applied. What matters are the three or four officers that carry your ass in their hands. Do as you are told, get through booking without being hospitalized and it's a good thing. This guy I know, learned it doesn't have a positive outcome to resist. Whatever you think your rights might be...it just doesn't matter.

nailingit — November 14, 2011 at 8:15 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Yo, hermon680..... can I call you herm?

Good to have you here, I like that cool stuff too. I just got a new car and it has stuff I don't even know how to work yet.

Well, enough for now, learn more later.

TTYL

hawkeye — November 14, 2011 at 8:17 p.m. ( | suggest removal


HUH?

hawkeye — November 14, 2011 at 8:55 p.m. ( | suggest removal


goldenoldie — November 14, 2011 at 6:58 p.m

I never said the officers where wrong, my problem is with the ones that sent them to forcibly remove peaceful protesters. A couple of people violating the law does NOT invalidate the Constitution. I do not support what they are protesting, but the Constitution guarantees them the right to protest, it is up to all Americans to support that right. If you are willing to suppress the rights of those you disagree with, You become the problem not the answer.

frobert — November 14, 2011 at 9 p.m. ( | suggest removal


OOOoooK, looks like someone ate way too many chocolate covered coffee beans.

ELISI — November 14, 2011 at 9:08 p.m. ( | suggest removal


frobert-
I didn't see GO's post that you responded to so bear with me. I totally agree with your notion of supporting protest-lawfully. To have the police (agents of the state) deny that right is a danger to us all. Is our government, corrupt as it is (one can debate that, I guess) so over the top as to be exempt from massive shows of disapproval? Would the bigoted but wordy BS the writers of the Constitution penned be accepted today? Not on your life. Do people of this country truly accept lawful protest against the government as a valid form of protest or discord? I think not. It's love it or leave it all over again. The bigoted white men that wrote the pretty words upon which our government is founded totally supported insurrection as a method for removing a regime that violated their principles and made allowances for doing just that. Wanna try it? You'll be dead in a week.

mrd — November 14, 2011 at 9:37 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Looks like ALLEN is back as whrmcht... Hope it is you..

vanwadreamer — November 14, 2011 at 9:44 p.m. ( | suggest removal


@ 9:44 ??? It's like a cross between menlo & alleycat. Could be alley's latest political thing or menlo/larimer coming out. Either way. It appears someone dumped a big load in the basement.

nailingit — November 14, 2011 at 10:35 p.m. ( | suggest removal


It's kinda got that Trevor Louden smell with a hint of some strange underground leather scene.

Yep. menlo/larimer with a right wing extreme twist.

nailingit — November 14, 2011 at 10:52 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Frobert, we are in agreement that our freedom of assembly and freedom of speech should never be withheld from us. All I was trying to relay to you is the fine line between those freedoms and when they have been abused by those who are executing their rights. We aren't talking about one or two remote issues. We are talking about the safety and well being of the folks who have the bawls to stand up and shout for the rights of all of us. It became a health and crime issue in the park blocks. The people were given three days to set up "camp" in a different location and they wanted to avoid messing up yet another park. The folks at Occupy Portland recognized the issues and know all too well that they are in a catch-22. There are a lot of empty buildings...warehouses...within the close proximity of downtown but is there anybody willing to offer that as an alternative? We'll soon see. As the weather turns colder and wetter, the chance of an outdoor encampment is close to nil.

It is my honest opinion that Occupy Portland has lost their effectiveness in the manner of an encampment and everything that plagued their efforts. To become a watchdog group such as Occupy Vancouver has done...I believe this is much more effective. I do give credit to Occupy Portland participants in that they did spark the immediate need for the City of Portland to take action for finding shelter for the homeless, to help those who were willing to accept help for drug and alcohol abuse and last but certainly not least...to let the City of Portland know that it doesn't take violent actions by either side to come to an agreement. Honestly, Fro...the PPD has shown just what the implications of a Police State can look like in recent years. There's been a lot of flack about their mishandling of those who resist...and rightly so.

goldenoldie — November 15, 2011 at 6:18 a.m. ( | suggest removal


ELISI — November 14, 2011 at 9:08 p.m.

LOL..and maybe a few chocolate bars to boot! Obviously, the person has no problem with telling what is on their mind.

goldenoldie — November 15, 2011 at 6:20 a.m. ( | suggest removal


Looks like yet another person lost their rights to post under their previous pen name after the incident between that other person, Frobert and Allen. Sporty's posts were removed from last week's forum. I'm betting that the one who had too much coffee and chocolate is Sporty reborn.

goldenoldie — November 15, 2011 at 6:30 a.m. ( | suggest removal


**Zuccotti Park Eviction: Court Order Against City Says Protesters Can Return With Tents In Tow**

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/11/15/zuccotti-park-eviction-co_n_1094675.html

nailingit — November 15, 2011 at 7:10 a.m. ( | suggest removal


sporty is no longer in existence?!?

nailingit — November 15, 2011 at 7:13 a.m. ( | suggest removal


Matt you don't seem to be one to step up to the plate when asked about forum banishment. You let isolationist racist diatribe against our President and others stand i.e. @ whrmcht, but yet permanently remove posters for using a derogatory remark to an individual.

What are yours, the C, or whoever deems comments inappropriate to the point of warranting soapbox banishment standards?

Would you mind speaking to this point and explain your reasons for auditory exile?

You can do it! No need to check with the big guy, just between us, what's up with your passionate take on censorship?

nailingit — November 15, 2011 at 7:39 a.m. ( | suggest removal


I'm going upstairs for a while. The censoring down here is a little more than I care for.

Look, we are only allowed to vent under a screen name down here. If one vents too much ya get yanked. If you look at some of the FB comments they get a little more free range.

I don't know what the C is worried about. FB is rife with a lot worse and no one is censoring them. You have moved yourselves way beyond being just a family orientated fish-wrapper and have moved into the big leagues by going on the net.

Yes I know that most papers on the net try to keep it under control, but the truth is there is less and less censoring being done. If it is used it is for the comment only and not for the screen name user. Some people have a hard time with everyday English but for the most part they get their idea across. Besides we in the basement have really thick skins and take it really well. I just have never cottoned to censorship. Let the community self censor. We know what to read or like and I think just because some don't like FB this just smacks of readership engineering to head us to FB just to post. Paranoid? Maybe!! But I faunch when I see censoring so blatant.

One more thing. Drop that idiotic captcha. I went through 15 before there was one legible enough to copy. Besides what real purpose does it serve??? I think you at the C got burned with this new sigh on style. I hope you can get some money back.

JohnCasey — November 15, 2011 at 8:18 a.m. ( | suggest removal


Hey Fro, you think they violated his constitutional rights?

http://www.columbian.com/news/2011/no...

hawkeye — November 15, 2011 at 9:10 a.m. ( | suggest removal


nailingit,

We'll just have to agree to disagree on my job and what I do. When someone violates community guidelines, whether here or through Facebook, they typically receive a warning. Continued violations result in the poster being banned. That's nothing new, and that's true of both commenting areas.

We receive many more Facebook comments than we do forum posts on a daily basis. We miss comments here and there; it's an unavoidable part of this job. I've asked time and time again for commenters to alert me when they see comments that violate guidelines. When we allowed anonymous comments throughout the site, there was a "flag for removal" button that made it easy. With Facebook, the best I can do is ask users to e-mail me when they see something that they feels violate the guidelines. It's not a perfect system, but I've never said it was.

On that note, if you see a Facebook comment that violates our community guidelines, e-mail me: matt.wastradowski@columbian.com. I take this seriously and want to see productive discussion on Columbian.com. If you let me know of these violations, I will address them. Referring to Facebook comments here, without providing links or headlines to help me find the story so I can look for myself, isn't nearly as helpful.

Some of you see this as censoring, but keep this in mind. Anyone banned from commenting, be it on Facebook or The Basement, is only banned after receiving warnings. I don't ban users lightly.

Despite what you might see and think, I'm not one for knee-jerk censoring. If I was, how could one explain hard-left or hard-right postings that remain in the comments? Wouldn't I remove any of your comments in which you call me out or ask for explanations? If I really was a power-hungry censor, I would be working harder to push my agenda, whatever that is. But I'm not, so I don't.

Matt Wastradowski — November 15, 2011 at 9:13 a.m. ( | suggest removal


Hercules the Hero!!! Nice story:

(video courtesy of ABC's Good Morning America)

http://gma.yahoo.com/video/lifestyle-26594257/dog-saves-the-lives-of-family-that-adopted-him-27241734.html

goldenoldie — November 15, 2011 at 9:13 a.m. ( | suggest removal


hawkeye — November 15, 2011 at 9:10 a.m.

No way of knowing without knowing what if any crime he committed, running is not against the law, running from a crime is.

frobert — November 15, 2011 at 9:17 a.m. ( | suggest removal


No way of knowing without knowing what if any crime he committed, running is not against the law, running from a crime is.

frobert — November 15, 2011 at 9:17 a.m

So do you think the cops yelled at him to **STOP!!!!** at any point?

hawkeye — November 15, 2011 at 9:24 a.m. ( | suggest removal


Matt called this the "Basement." Hee, hee. Can you replace the word "forums" (on the sections banner) with Basement, Matt?

Hey, while I got ya... I've a book I authored coming out in a month or so. If I drop a plug for it here, will I be sanctioned for spamming?

Drift — November 15, 2011 at 9:29 a.m. ( | suggest removal


Actually, my one agenda is an anti-book agenda, so that would be considered spamming.

Totally kidding.

You can certainly post about your book.

Matt Wastradowski — November 15, 2011 at 9:42 a.m. ( | suggest removal


http://www.katu.com/news/local/133851248.html

Good acting by Mr Bridges, not a Academy Awards level but not bad. Love the shifty eye movement when the TV news anchor was interviewing him. The helpless tone of voice he uses for sympathy, not quite spot on. Oh and perfect touch showing up in a wheelchair.

Hospital reports the man had no injuries and released.

Excellent call by hospital..A+

Grade for acting and lying...F- for FAIL

ELISI — November 15, 2011 at 9:55 a.m. ( | suggest removal


Wait'll you read the title, Matt. Heh

*A Little Sex, a Lot of Dope and an Aircraft Carrier* -- an unauthorized naval history (Litsam Press).

It's (basically) a memoir of my time aboard the USS America CV-66, circa 1976 - 79. I'll go out on a limb and say it doesn't read like any military memoir you've previously read. The title makes it obvious it's for the over 18 crowd, eh?

We've (myself, editors and publisher) have been working on it for a year. I've one last (fingers crossed) draft to approve before it goes to market.

I'll let ya all know when it comes out.

Drift — November 15, 2011 at 10:10 a.m. ( | suggest removal


A Little Sex, a Lot of Dope and an Aircraft Carrier -- an unauthorized naval history (Litsam Press).

Sounds like a love story.

hawkeye — November 15, 2011 at 10:19 a.m. ( | suggest removal


Matt- Thanks for the comment. Relax dude. I'm not suggesting you are "power hungry". My question lies with guidelines. Surprisingly, in my time spent in the basement to include the old forum, I've only had a couple of posts removed, and received only one, that I can remember, negative communiKay from your staff. I don't believe in handing out personal insults, and have learned not to take matters personally, how personal can you be with an avatar anyway? (Sometimes I choose riding the current boundaries with an occasional cheap shot/innuendo/other, purely in defense, :)) and I try to direct hostile comments at political parties and those that serve them when needed), but I mostly strive for civility, and obviously I could honor brevity a bit more. Having said this, and re-reading what I have said so I can stay on topic... :))...

Please be a little specific with the guidelines as it pertains to the death penalty. i.e. 3 warnings in a day/month/year, with regards to words, dictionary used acceptable?

Why cater to a "family friendly" clientele? Loosen the standards a bit. If any kids that can read are including the abasement as part of their literary diet, good chance they are socially stunted and mentally starved, in which case they could benefit from the comments here.

You seem to give more leeway to the FB side than here, and I'm sure they get quite a bit more traffic, to include kids.

Again, thanks for responding. If I were to say thanks for hearing me b***h, (without the asterisks) rather than gripe, would that be acceptable?

So many questions!

nailingit — November 15, 2011 at 11:02 a.m. ( | suggest removal


Drift- Sounds like a great read! If you are going the pictorial route, I might want a copy without pics. They didn't allow women on board back then...did they? :)) seriously, good luck with your book.

Care to lend a sample to the basement? A paragraph or two as a teaser perhaps!

nailingit — November 15, 2011 at 11:08 a.m. ( | suggest removal


Nail 11:08 The only photos are one of the ship at sea (front cover), me, on the flight deck (back cover) and another of me on the "About Cap'n Drift" page. Yes, I copyrighted it under the pseudonym.

No, women didn't serve aboard naval vessels back then.

I would be tempted to pull a paragraph or two out, but I don't wanna abuse Matt's hospitality.

Drift — November 15, 2011 at 11:19 a.m. ( | suggest removal


Oh, and I'm (mostly) clothed in the photos. ;^)

Drift — November 15, 2011 at 11:24 a.m. ( | suggest removal


Drift-Good fortune with your write!

Matt @ Matt- I just wanted to echo JohnCasey's comments at 8:18 in case you didn't read them. For the most part, I could have saved print and referenced his post.

nailingit — November 15, 2011 at 11:28 a.m. ( | suggest removal


I didn't go back and look but what did the basement think of thw eekends column written by mR LOU? It was quite a diatribe and I honestly thought it was lacking in Journalistic Ethics. Just because you have the pen does not make you the PRO! To say he would lead a class and teach those who he deems in need of teaching a class on running for office I found somewhat offensive at best and Childish at worst. While Mr Madore may lack some fundemental intellegence in regards to putting forth candidates whom he wishes to see in office, Mr Lou is not the person who should be using his Journalistic ability from within the C to abmonish Mr Madore.. I just found that to be a very low use of his IQ...Or just maybe his IQ is just that. On the childish side Lou was saying..Na na na your candidate didn't win, maybe if you come to a class I'll show ya how we do it hear at the C to get a politician elected.. Just my arm chair quarterback thinking, any thoughts from you all?

vanwadreamer — November 15, 2011 at 11:37 a.m. ( | suggest removal


A sudden hush fills the room after the question posted by vanwadreamer.....!!!

Hey Vanwadreamer, looks like nobody was stepping up to the plate, probably because of other priorities in the day...and now that my priorities have been completed, I guess I've got a bit to say. I'll keep it short, though.

In my honest opinion regarding Lou's Press Talk...the man has got to remove himself from what appears to be a hang up about Josephine and David. The election is over. He needs to move on. Maybe he's trying to discourage Josephine from pursuing a political career and trying to discourage David from political activism...but it's honestly as stale as the doughnuts on the ground that I saw on the video at Occupy Portland.

It appears Lou's pride has taken a hit so he's throwing out all the grumblings he possibly can. (Lou, feel free to chime in any time. I'd love to hear your explanation). He just doesn't realize the issues he's trying to drag on are dead in the water as far as the election although I know we haven't seen the last of either Josephine or David and so does Lou.

goldenoldie — November 15, 2011 at 2:05 p.m. ( | suggest removal


i kinda liked Lou's take on the elections. since this was a take on the elections before they "fade", i'd be surprised if he kicks this subject around anymore. and I don't think publishing such a piece the first available time after the election would be dragging it out, in fact, it's rather timely.

I don't know, and I'm not doubting Lou's ability here, I really just don't know how good his political advice is. THe whole thing could have been tongue-in-cheek thing. I do feel, Madore has pretty thin skin, however, or he's too used to getting his way and doesn't like losing or to be rebuffed. A while back, I thought he said he was outta here, too bad he didn't go. Madaore, don't let the door.......

mrd — November 15, 2011 at 2:20 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Hey Fro, talk to the Judge.....

Judge Upholds City’s Move to Block Camping at Protest Site

A state Supreme Court judge upheld the city’s right to enforce rules that bar the Occupy Wall Street protesters from camping at Zuccotti Park.

The judge, Michael D. Stallman, wrote in his ruling Tuesday afternoon, “The court is mindful of the movements’ First Amendment rights of freedom of speech and peaceable assembly.” But he added, quoting from another case, “Even protected speech is not equally permissible in all places and at all times.” He said that the protesters “had not demonstrated that the rules adopted by the owners of the property, concededly after the demonstrations began, are not reasonable time place and manner restrictions permitted under the First Amendment.”

**Don't that just tick you off?**

hawkeye — November 15, 2011 at 2:56 p.m. ( | suggest removal


ahhhh..... lou and david.

he (lou) hasn't gone on this kind of tangent since the kelly hinton days.

oh, and the title..."before the election completely fades"...? lou, lou, lou.

since 2008, elections are like oil spills.... the results are usually toxic and stay around FOREVER.

DeeLittle — November 15, 2011 at 3:01 p.m. ( | suggest removal


hawkeye — November 15, 2011 at 2:56 p.m

Good for that judge, at least HE understands one must stay within the confines of the law.

ELISI — November 15, 2011 at 3:07 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Has anyone thought, that this tangent Lou is on over Wentzel and Madore is his way of trying to draw more info from the two?

Any decent reporter will dig until they hit China to get what they are looking for, be it good or bad.

ELISI — November 15, 2011 at 3:19 p.m. ( | suggest removal


ELISI — November 15, 2011 at 3:19 p.m

And after all the back and forth between David and everyone else, his motives are still as clear as mud.

hawkeye — November 15, 2011 at 3:28 p.m. ( | suggest removal


hawkeye — November 15, 2011 at 3:28 p.m

Sooner or later everyone's motives come to light..

ELISI — November 15, 2011 at 3:34 p.m. ( | suggest removal


since 2008, elections are like oil spills.... the results are usually toxic and stay around FOREVER.

now THAT'S funny!

mrd — November 15, 2011 at 3:45 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Anyone see 60 minutes?

60 Minutes
“Stock trading in Congress

ELISI — November 15, 2011 at 3:49 p.m. ( | suggest removal


hawkeye — November 15, 2011 at 2:56 p.m.

Justice Stallman only ruled on the temporary injunction already issued by the court, the issue of the legality of the actions of the city and the protesters has not yet been heard. I am quite sure that issue will not be ultimately be decided by a local judge.

frobert — November 15, 2011 at 5:20 p.m. ( | suggest removal


fro, we love ya brother, but *give it up.*

the park was privately owned, tents and lean-to's are NOT speech, and there IS a limit to anybody's rights: remember....your right to extend your arm, etc.

DeeLittle — November 15, 2011 at 6:10 p.m. ( | suggest removal


http://www.katu.com/news/local/133851248.html?tab=video&c;=y

Besure to read article then scroll to the small tabs to other videos.

Find the one that shows the guy that is screaming about police brutality..Bridges talks..

I have watched several tapes of what happen, the short and long and I never saw not one police officer raise a hand, riot baton, boot, nothing to this man.
This man is lying, why? for his few minutes of fame on the news?
for a few dollars he thinks he will get if he screams long enough...hush money?
He says he has trouble walking and moving, in some of the videos of him it sure doesn't look like he has any trouble moving at all. This guy IMO is scamming the city of Portland.

ELISI — November 15, 2011 at 9:12 p.m. ( | suggest removal


ELISI — November 15, 2011 at 9:12 p.m.

I've seen four videos of this guy now and have yet to see the police do anything but save his miserable life. They did roll him over a little hard but no more than normal. Broken back, my butt. He was walking just fine. All he wants is some clean clothes, a full stomach and a few bucks in his pockets.

hawkeye — November 15, 2011 at 10:21 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Yep Hawkeye, that's exactly right...and in his greedy 5 seconds of fame, he's so ignorant to the reasoning behind the Occupy movement that he doesn't realize he is making a direct hit to the 99% by running a bogus claim against the PPD. What makes him any different than those in Wall Street out to make a quick buck off of others???

goldenoldie — November 16, 2011 at 5:47 a.m. ( | suggest removal


On numerous occasions, I have thought of stepping up to the plate, joining rallies of support to the causes I believed in...and I admit I did stand in support at Fire Station 6 alongside Mary Elkin and the rest of the folks. With regards to the Occupy Movement...a more volatile stance in support of the average citizen, there's no way in God's Green Earth that I would go into Portland as a member of the Occupy movement, especially due to the fact that I have a back condition which prevents me from standing for long periods of time...have had spinal surgery...and am sporting a permanent hip condition.

I am in no way trying to say "Oh poor me" and gather sympathy, folks. I'm managing fine in my lifestyle and that's not my point. The ONLY reason why I bring this up is the FACT that this man who stood on the edge of a curb in front of the rest of the occupiers was setting himself up for a fall ON PURPOSE in order to gain the sympathy of the crowd and to gain the advantage against the folks in full uniform and riot gear who were ordered by their boss to dress as such in order to remove squatters, knowing all too well that the anarchist movement was among the crowd, that incendiary devices and anything they could get their hands on to do damage were ready at a second's notice. The guy is an idiot for subjecting himself to be in direct harm's way should the issue have escalated into a violent confrontation.

The Portland Police Officers on the line remained calm, collected and stood their ground, doing what they were paid to do. They kept the man who fell down due to his own lack of coordination (most likely due to his past injury) from being trampled, and the officers kept his buddy at bay who was obviously trying to escalate the situation. Definitely a different picture from what we've witnessed in the past.

Also...to show the crowd standing in support for the guy, even having members demand the Mayor of Portland apologize...only further weakens their support of the true 99%'ers. They have lost their focus on the issues of why they're there in the first place and would rather target the police and the mayor of Portland.

goldenoldie — November 16, 2011 at 6 a.m. ( | suggest removal


"Considering that she was a member of Congress and he was the highest-ranking member, we thought he'd ask to visit Gabby or at least give a call to see how she was doing," Kelly writes, via The Hill. "Our only contact with him had been a simple get-well card he'd sent a few days after Gabby was injured."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/11/15/mark-kelly-gabrielle-giffords-john-boehner_n_1095966.html

nailingit — November 16, 2011 at 6:51 a.m. ( | suggest removal


FOX NEWS LIES! FOX NEWS LIES! FOX NEWS LIES! FOX NEWS LIES! FOX NEWS LIES!

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/11/16/adam-shapiro-fox-business-occupy-wall-street_n_1096858.html

nailingit — November 16, 2011 at 7:07 a.m. ( | suggest removal


"He suggested Norquist's lobbying on the issue is at least one reason why the 12-member super committee hasn't been able to achieve its goal: trillions of dollars in debt reduction stemming from some combination of spending cuts and new revenues. Several Republicans are wrestling with the fact that they signed Norquist's no-tax-hike pledge amid debt talks."

"Reid told reporters that despite there being "all kinds of rumors" about Republicans putting forward a plan, he has yet to see it."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/11/15/harry-reid-grover-norquist-super-committee_n_1095993.html?ref=politics

nailingit — November 16, 2011 at 7:16 a.m. ( | suggest removal


**Congress took $5M in private trips this year**

"Watchdog groups have called the excursions a loophole in the ethics [reform package] that passed in early 2007, ..."

Isn't it nice that our new congress is so "fiscally minded"?

Read more: http://www.politico.com/news/stories/1111/68446.html#ixzz1dsqMwtao

nailingit — November 16, 2011 at 7:49 a.m. ( | suggest removal


Vanwadreame, as for Lou......do as I say not as I do......man, the election is over and would he recommend ICC as a kingmaker for Mr Madore? I'm sorry but there are a lot of folks throwing money at candidates in this place so why is he singling out Mr. Madore?? There is the appearance Lou has a serious problem with those he wants to go after?? To me it's bullying at it's finest down there at the C, under the name of journalism?? Besides the election is over and Mr. Madore has spent his money in the best realm he saw fit to use it?? I will state this again, we have a king and he was anointed with our a vote of the public, to put this person in place as he feels he can speak for all the citizens of Clark County.

I have been harping on the C for months on their name calling and yet we have rules here that we should abide by. Journalism at it's finest when they continue to not play by the rules and anyone is fair game to push their agendas??

Occupy folks need to get a clue on the way to protest legally and their movement is so 1970s!! It's the 21 century!! They have the power of the internet and why aren't they using this unless they are just fame seekers???

karma — November 16, 2011 at 7:50 a.m. ( | suggest removal


I thought I would post what has turned out to be a very controversial article. Madore is praised repeatedly for his good character. I'm at a loss as to why some view this article as extreme prejudice. Please point these horrific biased comments out to me. I haven't had all my coffee yet, so I'm sure I must be missing something.

As we put this latest election to bed, a few observations are in order.

It’s the media’s fault


Josephine Wentzel

This is an old trick pulled out of the back pocket of politicians. My good friend Josephine Wentzel tried it this time around when she ran for city council.

It didn’t work.

Still, some folks keep trying. Presidential candidate Herman Cain is trying it right now.

Here’s the thinking: Blame the messenger rather than the message. Maybe, just maybe, some folks will believe that what you’ve done or said is less important than those media bad guys.

After Wentzel lost, she tried to explain why by saying she had to run against The Columbian. But that’s not all! She also had to run against:

• The good ol’ boy network.

• The mayor.

• Identity Clark County.

• The elections office.

I like Wentzel, so I sent along a constructive email. I said, my mom taught me, if you’re in the business of always blaming others for your shortcomings, you’ll never get any better.

I was thinking maybe she’d see the obvious and concede she needs to look within first, before pointing the fingers at others.

Not so much.

She responded by saying she had no idea what I was talking about. I then reminded her that our mutual friend Lew Waters had posted a video of her saying just this. Her response?

“Lou, if you don’t mind, I would like a few days of peace and quiet.”

Fair enough. Peace, Josephine.

David Madore


David Madore

I like David Madore, as well. Madore is a successful local businessman who has jumped headfirst into the political arena. Madore would never say this, but he is hoping to be a kingmaker on the causes he believes strongly in. He backed Wentzel — one of his employees at U.S. Digital — for example.

Some people think he’s shrewd and conniving. I disagree. I just think he hasn’t found his political footing. He really doesn’t know enough about politics.

He hoped that, by throwing several thousand dollars at State Sen. Don Benton to seek his expert advice, things would change.

Benton? Really? Did that work out OK?

I’ve had a number of very good conversations with Madore. And as noted, I like him. And I consider myself a good judge of character. And I believe he has character.

So, I figured I’d throw out a little advice to Madore, and really anyone who is thinking about the kingmaker field. Maybe a few politicians could use it, as well. (And it won’t cost you 20 large either!)

nailingit — November 16, 2011 at 8:05 a.m. ( | suggest removal


• Mr. Madore, I believe the issues that are important to you resonate with lots of folks in Clark County. But don’t get sucked too far down the rabbit hole with all the political garbage makers. It’s dark and cold down there.

• Stay true to yourself. Don’t be tempted to get into the mud with others. It doesn’t suit you.

• Vet the candidates you back, much, much better. Recognize the difference between someone who says he is “passionate” and someone who really is just combative.

• Ask this question to yourself:

“Does this candidate have the character, the demeanor, the approach and the issues for me to support him or her? And can he/she convince others, who aren’t already on board, to get on board?”

• Seek solid community connections. Isolation is a losing formula. Don’t worry about keeping the fringe bloggers and your core base happy. Worry about everyone else.

Finally, sign-up for Professor Brancaccio’s Politics 101 class. There’s always a seat open for you! ;-)

Lou Brancaccio is The Columbian’s editor. Reach him at lou.brancaccio@columbian.com.

nailingit — November 16, 2011 at 8:07 a.m. ( | suggest removal


??? I've lived in a "big city" in which the local media performs "hit jobs" and run smear campaigns on local politicians and their big money contributers.

vanwa- I can't see a "journalistic ethics problem" with this write. Where?

nailingit — November 16, 2011 at 8:14 a.m. ( | suggest removal


I'd like to hear Madore explain how a $150,000 "donation" to two city council candidates fits in line with the norm. I believe I read where the record spent prior was about $12,000. I don't know if, or how for that matter, all this money was spent, but it's still way over the top. Do we really want our governments run by "kingmakers"? Isn't it bad enough already? Campaign finance reform is a huge, totally not funny joke.

mrd — November 16, 2011 at 8:48 a.m. ( | suggest removal


mrd, then would you say the same about the SEIU since they devoted $28 million to Obama's campaign, making the SEIU "the organization that spent the most to help get him elected"

ELISI — November 16, 2011 at 9:11 a.m. ( | suggest removal


corporate, union, individual, PAC, you name it. An added benefit other than the obvious, is these bozos wouldn't be able to run such lonnnnggggg campaigns, and wouldn't have to devote so much time and effort kissing up for money.

mrd — November 16, 2011 at 9:24 a.m. ( | suggest removal


ELISI — November 16, 2011 at 9:11 a.m

Let me ask you this, would you be as upset if they had given as much to the Republican'ts campaign? Is this just an Obama thing?

There is a large difference between one individual giving 150k to a campaign and a group of 2.1 million giving 28m to a major campaign.

hawkeye — November 16, 2011 at 9:47 a.m. ( | suggest removal


**Rick Perry Town Hall Attendees Asked To Prove Citizenship**

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/11/16/rick-perry-town-hall-citizenship_n_1097418.html?ref=politics

nailingit — November 16, 2011 at 9:58 a.m. ( | suggest removal


hawkeye — November 16, 2011 at 9:47 a.m.

Hawkeye the point is, it is WAY too much money spent on campaigns period, and I'm not upset, was just pointing out neither party is immuned.

It is turning out that people are elected by how much they spend..not what they can or can't do for the people. It's a money game.

That money can be better spent in areas of jobs, housing for the homeless, shelters for the abused, food and medicines for those who don't have.

ELISI — November 16, 2011 at 10:04 a.m. ( | suggest removal


ELISI — November 16, 2011 at 10:04 a.m.

I'm not going to argue with you on this one, ELISI. I'm a big believer in campaign reform. I think funds need to be limited to an equal share per candidate. I think there should be a system set up so that all campaign funds are required to be put into a holding account and not released until the opposing candidate receives a like amount.

hawkeye — November 16, 2011 at 10:34 a.m. ( | suggest removal


hawkeye — November 16, 2011 at 10:34 a.m

I agree 100% with you. There should be a set amount in an account for each who run for office. Once they spend the amount set, too bad so sad.

mrd is right, the campaigns are far too long and drawn out. So much so people tend to tune out and turn off.

ELISI — November 16, 2011 at 10:55 a.m. ( | suggest removal


Nailingit -

There are times where I ask myself "Just who does that writer remind me of?" After reading your comments from 8:05 to 8:07 am, an overwhelming thought came over me that your writes sound much like those of Lou Brancaccio when he speaks of David Madore.

Then common sense comes into play and I ponder..."Why would Lou hide his identity in his own newspaper???"

Common sense, right???

Silly me

goldenoldie — November 16, 2011 at 10:58 a.m. ( | suggest removal


DEE Little, Great comment and funny to boot.
Karma, I certainly agree with your take from yesterday too...

Hawk is right; we need campaign contribution overhaul at all levels of government... Some would say spending equals votes which it may, but there also is a way that spending buys politicians and not always the ones that should be voted in... The presidential race will cost each runner almost a Billion dollars I saw the other day by the time it's all said and done..

Nail- my thought was after I read his article was Lou was just rubbing defeat in Mr. Madore's face and then telling him how he should have done it.. Arm chair quarterbacking I call it and petty to say the least.. Condescending at best!

vanwadreamer — November 16, 2011 at 11:04 a.m. ( | suggest removal


Went out this morning, trying to beat the blustery, wet November day and a certain song has been stuck on my mind ALL morning. Thought I'd share it with the rest of you:

http://tinyurl.com/blnl6rj

Keep Smiling, Folks!!!

goldenoldie — November 16, 2011 at 11:10 a.m. ( | suggest removal


Ah yes, this song as well:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lIPan-...

goldenoldie — November 16, 2011 at 11:15 a.m. ( | suggest removal


And on that note:

A Fund-Raiser for New York City Comptroller John C. Liu Is Accused of Fraud

A fund-raiser for the New York City comptroller, John C. Liu, whose campaign finances are under federal investigation, was arrested on Wednesday morning on charges of attempted wire fraud and conspiracy, people briefed on the matter said.

The charges against the man, Xing Wu Pan, do not mention Mr. Liu, but say that Mr. Pan served as a bundler — or person who gathers donations from a group of contributors — for a citywide candidate in New York for the 2013 election. A person briefed on the matter said the candidate was Mr. Liu.

The arrest underscores the political peril for Mr. Liu, who is considered a rising star in New York politics and a possible successor to Mayor Michael R. Bloomberg. Mr. Liu has quickly amassed more than $1 million in campaign contributions, but questions have surfaced about the legitimacy of his donations.

hawkeye — November 16, 2011 at 11:17 a.m. ( | suggest removal


goldenoldie — November 16, 2011 at 11:15 a.m

Ahhh CCR one of my favorite groups...good call on the song!

I have Tina Turners song.."I can't stand the rain" going through my head this morning..

ELISI — November 16, 2011 at 11:31 a.m. ( | suggest removal


Did anyone else see where old Newt received 1.5 mill from
Freddie Mac?

So see Hawkeye they ALL do it.

ELISI — November 16, 2011 at 11:34 a.m. ( | suggest removal


Internal Freddie Mac budget records show $11.7 million was paid to 52 outside lobbyists and consultants in 2006, all of them former Republican lawmakers and ex-GOP staffers. Besides Gingrich, the hires included former Sen. Alfonse D'Amato of New York, former Rep. Vin Weber of Minnesota and Susan Hirschmann, the former chief of staff to ex-House Majority Leader Tom DeLay, R-Texas.

ELISI — November 16, 2011 at 11:42 a.m. ( | suggest removal


I thought Freddie Mac was a government entity and as such should not be involved in politics. Like the Post Office.

hawkeye — November 16, 2011 at 11:46 a.m. ( | suggest removal


Hawkeye check the list of those who received money from Freddie and Fannie..both parties..

http://www.opensecrets.org/news/2008/09/update-fannie-mae-and-freddie.html

ELISI — November 16, 2011 at 11:48 a.m. ( | suggest removal


Oh, I see. He and his firm were employed as "consultants". No wonder they are so screwed up.

hawkeye — November 16, 2011 at 11:53 a.m. ( | suggest removal


goldenoldie @ 10:58...??? I am still not seeing anything, zero, nada that is less than complimentary of madore.

**I like David Madore**, as well. **Madore is a successful local businessman** who has jumped headfirst into the political arena. Madore would never say this, but he is hoping to be a kingmaker on the causes he believes strongly in. He backed Wentzel — one of his employees at U.S. Digital — for example.

**Some people think he’s shrewd and conniving. I disagree.** I just think he hasn’t found his political footing. He really doesn’t know enough about politics.

I’ve had a number of very good conversations with Madore. And as noted, **I like him. And I consider myself a good judge of character. And I believe he has character.**

Not to beat a dead horse guys, I've never been a huge fan of Lou B's writes overall. Sometimes really good, sometimes really bad. Most fall in between.

vanwadreamer- I understand where you are coming from somewhat. Considering the relationship with Lou B/Madore seems to be tenuous at best, I found the write to be positive. He could have stuck his finger in his eye, and rubbed in defeat and chose not to. The guy from Chicago exhibited a little class. imo.

Sometimes we vilify those we disagree with when it's not warranted, and in the long run it diminishes credible substance when and if it rears it's head. Again, not a big fan of Lou B., but I try to give credit where credit is due. And with that segue...

I want to give a shout out to Jaime Herrera for signing on to the 'anti-insider trading bill'. Way to go Jamie! A couple more instances of good decision making and I'll give our relationship another shot! ;))

nailingit — November 16, 2011 at 12:11 p.m. ( | suggest removal


***Once they spend the amount set, too bad so sad.***

elsi: if funds are finite, they're going to be spent in the areas where the most votes are...hmmmmm...now that i think about it, this might not be a bad idea....

:)

DeeLittle — November 16, 2011 at 12:34 p.m. ( | suggest removal


nailingit, positive, class, credit and respect were not found in Lou's Sat. article to print what was stated after the election.
It's Mr. Madore's money and he can spend it on any politician he feels the need? Spending on politicians are like spending it on the lottery, sometimes you win and sometimes you don't. There are better ways of helping one's community but again it's his money to do with as he feels fit? It's the name calling that turns me off and those at the C do a lot of it, got to love their one sided agendas too??

karma — November 16, 2011 at 1:20 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Alright folks, I need to ask a dumb question here as I just got a letter from the Attorney General of Washington. How many landowners here have septic tanks?? If you have one, did you receive a Public Notice that the Health Dept. was going to enact the $16.50 fee per year that the Clark County Commissioners just passed??

I'll tell you I received no PN by mail from either the County or the Health Dept. and read about it here online when the C published the news story so I made a request of the AG office due to the lack of PN.

karma — November 16, 2011 at 2:28 p.m. ( | suggest removal


karma — November 16, 2011 at 2:28 p.m

I heard they were talking about it and it was supposed to take the place of a tipping fee or something like that. I hadn't heard that they passed it but I'm not surprised, it means more money in their pockets.

hawkeye — November 16, 2011 at 3:09 p.m. ( | suggest removal


karma @ 2:28 PM: I remember this article and public comment period last month for those sewer rates:

http://www.columbian.com/news/2011/oc...

manthou — November 16, 2011 at 4:24 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Thank you both for your reply, this was passed the first of November and I sent off a letter to the Commissioners and shortly afterwards filed a complaint with the AG's office due to no written notice was sent to us by mail. Several folks I have talked to who have septic tanks didn't get written notice either.
I don't get the Columbian so I am not aware that the PN was posted there but I got a letter stating it was published in October?? So the County should of had plenty of time to send out notice. I also found that the State repealed the fee portion of the law so again one has to ask what is up??

Again anyone get a written Public Notice or was it posted somewhere???

karma — November 16, 2011 at 4:42 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Anyone catch Rachel Maddow last night? I learned a lot about the Free Speech movement at Berkeley and found it fascinating and timely.

Mario Savio's speech, I think, expresses what so many people are feeling now:

"There's a time when the operation of the machine becomes so odious—makes you so sick at heart—that you can't take part. You can't even passively take part. And you've got to put your bodies upon the gears and upon the wheels, upon the levers, upon all the apparatus, and you've got to make it stop. And you've got to indicate to the people who run it, to the people who own it, that unless you're free, the machine will be prevented from working at all." Mario Savio at Sproul Hall Steps, December 2, 1964

manthou — November 16, 2011 at 5 p.m. ( | suggest removal


karma: It is listed on the county's website. Is there a requirement that they send a mailing to all septic tank owners in Clark County?

Maybe they are trying to save taxpayers' money by reducing paper and stamps? :)

http://www.clark.wa.gov/public-health/index.asp

manthou — November 16, 2011 at 5:09 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Hey Karma,
we discussed the septic fee on the Back Fence Forum back then. No, we also did not get a notice in the mail whatsoever. I only knew of the potential fee because of the C article. I also did read in the C (online) that they passed the fee. They had one public meeting in the morning to ensure not many people could attend and the forgone conclusion was another fee. Voila!
Glad you took it to the State-so is it still a fee or did the State step in and stop it?

luvithere — November 16, 2011 at 6:32 p.m. ( | suggest removal


**PETITION TO RESCIND FANNIE MAE / FREDDIE MAC BONUS MILLIONS**

don't usually participate in online political petition stuff, but THIS isn't partisan....if you want to sign the petition, being done by dick morris, here's the url: http://dickmorris.rallycongress.com/5485/fight-fannie-mae-bonuses/

there's also a link to patty murray and jamie HB on the site.

DeeLittle — November 16, 2011 at 6:49 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Thanks Dee, that was great.

hawkeye — November 16, 2011 at 6:56 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Sure is, thanks Dee. Mine was sent now

luvithere — November 16, 2011 at 7:09 p.m. ( | suggest removal


luvithere, it's in their hands right now. There is the appearance like the Port, they feel they can tax us without mailing out public notices or a vote taxing hike. I will say I requested for an audit due to the figures published by the Columbian. Half a million a year to run a program of 34,000 septic tanks when some of us comply and get one letter every three years? The pumpers can do their recording by electronic so why the high costs??

karma — November 16, 2011 at 7:13 p.m. ( | suggest removal


No idea why costs are so high. I really do not think it should cost half a mil as they say. That's just silly. I think in the 6 years we are here, we got one letter from them. Wow-high costs alright!We had it inspected when we bought and since then, twice more. Each time, the results were filed electronically. So-what WERE the costs to county? Just another way to make more money.

luvithere — November 16, 2011 at 8:20 p.m. ( | suggest removal


manthou @ 5- Good evening manthou. I did watch it. I'm glad the American spirit is still alive at Berkley. Interesting to note, the FBI followed Savio for ten years, even though Savio never showed any sign whatsoever of being a threat. With the heavy handed law enforcement/tactics being used at some of the Occupy protests, voter suppression, the assault on women's health issues, to include the right to terminate a pregnancy, union busting, etc. etc. it doesn't feel like we've progressed much sometimes.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/11/16/dorli-rainey-pepper-spray-occupy-seattle_n_1097836.html

nailingit — November 16, 2011 at 8:45 p.m. ( | suggest removal


**Bill O’Reilly Admits That Fox News Is Waging A War Against Occupy Wall Street**

"This attempt to play the victim was a set up by Fox News. Rivera went to Liberty Plaza knowing what kind of reaction Fox News would get. They got the reaction that they wanted from the crowd, which allowed Bill O’Reilly to go on the air and smear the 99% while at the same time claiming self-defense."

"The most interesting thing about O’Reilly’s remarks is that he indirectly admitted that Fox News is engaged in a smear campaign against Occupy Wall Street."

http://www.politicususa.com/en/bill-oreilly-fox-ows

nailingit — November 16, 2011 at 9:01 p.m. ( | suggest removal


**John Boehner Bawls Through Congressional Award Ceremony**

"An attendee at the ceremony said Boehner's strong emotional reaction was startling."

"It was certainly a moving event, but seeing him sob and gasp for air was sort of off-putting," said this attendee.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/11/16/boehner-crying-congressional-award-ceremony_n_1098254.html?ref=politics

nailingit — November 16, 2011 at 9:10 p.m. ( | suggest removal


nailingit — November 16, 2011 at 9:10 p.m

Seriously, John...... Get help.

hawkeye — November 16, 2011 at 9:32 p.m. ( | suggest removal


**Fox News Has Its Own Version Of The Constitution**

The realization that Fox News is using a Constitution that is markedly different from the one the rest of know and love, explains how their audience has become so delusional with regard to Constitutional issues. Fox News notoriously misinforms their viewers and their ignorance is documented in studies and polls. This is just the latest embarrassing deception that Fox has loosed on its glassy-eyed congregation. And these errors persist despite an edict from Fox executives that they were implementing a “Zero Tolerance” policy for such mistakes:

“Mistakes by any member of the show team that end up on air may result in immediate disciplinary action against those who played significant roles in the ‘mistake chain,’ and those who supervise them. That may include warning letters to personnel files, suspensions, and other possible actions up to and including termination.”

So will heads be rolling at Fox News? Don’t count on it. Fox doesn’t regard these incidents as mistakes. In fact, they are an integral part of their mandate. A mistake would be if they inadvertently allowed something truthful to get on the air. That would be cause for termination at Fox.

http://www.newscorpse.com/ncWP/?p=5801

nailingit — November 16, 2011 at 9:35 p.m. ( | suggest removal


anybody else have a comcast outage for about two hours last night?

DeeLittle — November 17, 2011 at 7:02 a.m. ( | suggest removal


manthou
Mario Savio
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tcx9BJ...

Nailingit
Take one step out of our comfort zone --- Jackie Hudson & Dorli Rainey

Wall St today
http://www.ustream.tv/TheOther99

buckeye71 — November 17, 2011 at 7:11 a.m. ( | suggest removal


nailingit — November 16, 2011 at 9:35 p.m.

"their viewers and their ignorance is documented in studies and polls."

Do you have a source for this?

frobert — November 17, 2011 at 7:52 a.m. ( | suggest removal


fro-This source is one of many. It gives a well rounded view to include other media outlets in addition to faux news.

For each topic, the news source with the **lowest level of misinformation** among its daily consumers
was as follows:

• most economists who have studied it estimate that the stimulus legislation saved or created
only a few jobs or caused job losses: MSNBC, 65% misinformed
• among economists who have estimated the effect of the health reform law, more think it will
increase the deficit: Public broadcasting (NPR or PBS), 38%
• the bank bailout legislation (TARP) was passed and signed into law under Pres. Obama:
MSNBC, 38%
• the US economy is getting worse: Public broadcasting (NPR or PBS), 34%
• the stimulus legislation did not include any tax cuts: MSNBC, 34%
• the bailout of GM and Chrysler occurred under President Obama only: MSNBC, 32%
• since January 2009 the respondent’s federal income taxes have actually gone up: MSNBC,
27%
• it is unclear whether Obama was born in the US—or, Obama was not born in the US: Public
broadcasting (NPR or PBS), 24%
• when TARP came up for a vote, Democrats were opposed or divided: Fox News, 21%
• when TARP came up for a vote, most Republicans opposed it: CNN, 28%
• it was proven that the US Chamber of Commerce was spending foreign money to back
Republicans: Fox News, 23%
• most scientists think climate change is not occurring or views are divided evenly: MSNBC
and public broadcasting (NPR or PBS), both 20%

Those who watched Fox News almost daily **were significantly more likely** than those who never
watched it to believe that:

most economists estimate the stimulus caused job losses (12 points more likely)
most economists have estimated the health care law will worsen the deficit (31 points)
the economy is getting worse (26 points)
most scientists do not agree that climate change is occurring (30 points)
the stimulus legislation did not include any tax cuts (14 points)
their own income taxes have gone up (14 points)
the auto bailout only occurred under Obama (13 points)
when TARP came up for a vote most Republicans opposed it (12 points)
and that it is not clear that Obama was born in the United States (31 points)

http://www.worldpublicopinion.org/pipa/pdf/dec10/Misinformation_Dec10_rpt.pdf

nailingit — November 17, 2011 at 9:45 a.m. ( | suggest removal


Thanks for the link buckeye71!

nailingit — November 17, 2011 at 9:47 a.m. ( | suggest removal


Live CNN OWS police action happening.

nailingit — November 17, 2011 at 9:54 a.m. ( | suggest removal


Thanks for the link buckeye71!

**WALL STREET SURRENDERS TO OWS PROTESTERS!**
Posted on Thursday, November 17th, 2011
By Frank Lake

"Several executives walked out of their offices, gave the protesters their bank passwords and ATM codes, then took off their pressed pants and pressed skirts, put on some jeans, grabbed a few free bagels and joined in chanting, “tax the rich, tax the rich!”

http://weeklyworldnews.com/headlines/40568/wall-street-surrenders-to-ows-protesters/

nailingit — November 17, 2011 at 10:16 a.m. ( | suggest removal


:))

nailingit — November 17, 2011 at 10:17 a.m. ( | suggest removal


nailingit — November 17, 2011 at 10:16 a.m.

Ya, I don't see that happening any time soon.

hawkeye — November 17, 2011 at 11:09 a.m. ( | suggest removal



The real news line today is that two NYPD officers were taken to the hospital as they were injured by radicals in the OWS march.

Woosker — November 17, 2011 at 12:55 p.m. ( | suggest removal


"You've been here 8 weeks and you already have a ghetto?" John Stewart

Woosker — November 17, 2011 at 12:58 p.m. ( | suggest removal


News Flash from the AG office for those that are following the septic tank fees......."I don’t think the county has a legal duty to provide individual notice by mail to each and every septic tank resident. While individual notice would better inform the public, my guess is that the county declined to do so based in part on the cost of mailing notices to 34,000 residents."

So if the County doesn't have to do this, then why does the Developers have to send out notices??? This to me is not right and those of us that get out news online don't get to see the Public Notices that the print carry. This to me is blind siding at it's finest. So why would anyone pay this fee? They couldn't get folks to comply with the laws on the books now so heck, I'm opting out!!

karma — November 17, 2011 at 1:23 p.m. ( | suggest removal


hm Karma, the way I read this: there will be a new item on my property tax statement. That's a tax or fee. And they have no legal duty to tell me upfront it will be added to my taxes?

That smells.

luvithere — November 17, 2011 at 1:51 p.m. ( | suggest removal



Luvithere, it's my understanding that one can also send them a bill for services that you do??

karma — November 17, 2011 at 3:08 p.m. ( | suggest removal


ECONOMY
Gov. Scott Walker’s Latest ‘Jobs’ Proposal: Abstinence-Only Sex Education
By Marie Diamond posted from ThinkProgress Economy on Nov 17, 2011 at 1:40 pm

[W]alker and the GOP-led Legislature have a plan: First, they curtailed collective-bargaining rights and threatened to lay off government workers, including teachers, cops, and firefighters. Then Walker called a special jobs-focused session of the Legislature, which he dubbed “Back to Work Wisconsin,” to pass even more “job-creating” laws. At the top of the jobs agenda? Gutting the state’s sex ed standards and replacing them with abstinence-only education.

Multiple studies have confirmed that abstinence-only education does not decrease sexual activity among teens, but alarmingly reduces the number of teens who have safe sex.

http://thinkprogress.org/

nailingit — November 17, 2011 at 3:29 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Karma, I don't think we can send a bill to the county for our septic inspection. But that would be hmmm, very cool to do.

luvithere — November 17, 2011 at 4:11 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Luvithere, since they are going to tax us......it's time to send them the bill for what it takes yearly to maintain those septic tanks?? I'll send them my bill and I'm betting it will be larger than theirs. I'll also note to my mortgage company that their bill is hogwash as I'm sending them my bill to cover the cost. By law we can do this as a service we render. Just like some maintaining a park can send the City or County a bill.

karma — November 17, 2011 at 4:49 p.m. ( | suggest removal


WASHINGTON (AP) — Herman Cain on Thursday became the first Republican presidential candidate to receive Secret Service protection. Cain asked for the security and Homeland Security Secretary Janet Napolitano and congressional leaders approved his request Thursday, Secret Service spokesman Ed Donovan confirmed.

***Hey, Hey, Hey, TOTAL B.S. If he needs protection, he can buy his own. It's not like he's broke or anything.***

hawkeye — November 17, 2011 at 6:34 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Patriotic Millionaires: loved the story about their meeting with Gover Norquist. :)

Here is another petition to consider. You do not have to be a millionaire to sign it:

http://patrioticmillionaires.org/

manthou — November 17, 2011 at 7:12 p.m. ( | suggest removal


hawkeye — November 17, 2011 at 6:34 p.m.

I agree, he should pay for his own security like the rest of the candidates do.

frobert — November 17, 2011 at 7:36 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Herman Cains policy

9-9-9 plan, from sim city.

30 foot electrified border fence, from the movie Machete.

We need a leader not a reader, from the Simpsons movie.

I never ever ever did anything inappropriate.

I think his problem is that he needs to stop having his 16 year old pizza shop employees making all of his policy decisions.

frobert — November 18, 2011 at 7:33 a.m. ( | suggest removal


Secret Service protection? I don't know-no big deal. The candidates would have received it 4 months prior to the election anyway. If your old enough, you'll remember that's about when the conventions were held and the campaigns began in earnest. Today campaigns begin as soon as the dust settles from the previous election. So I guess it follows SS protection would begin sooner.

mrd — November 18, 2011 at 7:35 a.m. ( | suggest removal


fro-A song from the Pokémon movie and a quote to include Jackie Chan! Check this out...

http://www.mediaite.com/tv/rachel-maddow-herman-cains-campaign-isnt-just-an-art-project-its-a-good-art-project/

nailingit — November 18, 2011 at 7:44 a.m. ( | suggest removal


What a difference 8 months make! Of course we didn't realize such strong GOP contenders for leading the free world would come into play. Great GOP leaders and readily groomed for the office of the Presidency.

Leaders like Rick Perry, Michele Bachmann, Rick Santorum and Herman Cain.

:)))))))))))))))))))))))

------------------------------------------------------

Tea Party supporters pick Mitt Romney as top choice for President in 2012, Palin ratings slip: polls
BY ALIYAH SHAHID
DAILY NEWS STAFF WRITER
Friday, March 25, 2011
There's no shortage of Tea Party stars considering presidential runs, including Sarah Palin and Rand Paul.

But is the noisy grassroots movement's favorite the relatively staid Mitt Romney?
According to a surprising new poll, he is.

For 24% of Tea Party backers, the former Massachusetts governor is the number one choice as a potential GOP presidential contender, a new Pew Research poll reveals.

Romney beat out Tea Party favorites by double digits -- Paul received 13% and Palin received 12%. Former Arkansas Gov. Mike Huckabee garnered 19% of the Tea Partiers' support, while former Speaker of the House Newt Gingrich received 15%.

nailingit — November 18, 2011 at 8:20 a.m. ( | suggest removal


nailingit — November 18, 2011 at 8:20 a.m

I guess it all comes down to "flavor of the month".

This month, PUMPKIN!

I guess that means Newt

hawkeye — November 18, 2011 at 8:25 a.m. ( | suggest removal


hawkeye- God knows what flavor December will bring. I hope this prints out okay. I thought I would print a brief Barack Obama job resume for those that were denouncing his qualifications for Presidency in 08. Amazing how standards change!

Incumbent
Assumed office
January 20, 2009
Vice President Joe Biden
Preceded by George W. Bush
United States Senator
from Illinois
In office
January 3, 2005 – November 16, 2008
Preceded by Peter Fitzgerald
Succeeded by Roland Burris
Chairman of the Senate Foreign Relations Subcommittee on European Affairs
In office
January 4, 2007 – November 16, 2008
Preceded by George F. Allen
Succeeded by Jeanne Shaheen
Illinois State Senator
from the 13th District
In office
January 8, 1997 – November 4, 2004
Preceded by Alice Palmer
Succeeded by Kwame Raoul
Personal details
Born Barack Hussein Obama II
August 4, 1961 (age 50)[1]
Honolulu, Hawaii, U.S.[2]
Political party Democratic Party
Spouse(s) Michelle Obama (1992–present)
Children Malia (b.1998)
Sasha (b.2001)
Residence White House (Official)
Chicago, Illinois (Private)
Alma mater Occidental College
Columbia University (B.A.)
Harvard Law School (J.D.)
Profession Community organizer
Lawyer
Constitutional law professor
Author
Religion Christianity[3]
Signature
Website The White House
Barack Obama
This article is part of a series on
Barack Obama

nailingit — November 18, 2011 at 8:36 a.m. ( | suggest removal


[source Wiki] ^^^

nailingit — November 18, 2011 at 8:38 a.m. ( | suggest removal


Wow, I thought I would come here and escape the wildness of the other printed stories and here I find the flavor of the month is Newt........scream!! Ya all have a great weekend! Get your popcorn ready so sit by the windows to watch it rain. ; )

karma — November 18, 2011 at 9:49 a.m. ( | suggest removal


**15 Tea Party Caucus freshmen rake in $3.5 million in first 9 months in Washington**

"A joint analysis by iWatch News and the Center for Responsive Politics has found that the 15 freshmen members of the Tea Party Caucus have embraced many of the same special interests that have supported Republicans for years. The fifteen combined have received over $3,450,000 during the first three quarters of this year from almost 700 different PACs."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/the-center-for-public-integrity/15-tea-party-caucus-fresh_b_1101194.html

nailingit — November 18, 2011 at 10:22 a.m. ( | suggest removal


**Tea Party Members Meet With Occupy Memphis, Praise Efforts Of Protesters**

"During the meeting, a tea party member showed a picture of pro-communist images at the Occupy Memphis movement, drawing shakes of the head and disapproving comments from audience members."

"Tensions rose when a third member of the Occupy movement, Karen Seus, was told to sit down and stop speaking because only Tran and Pope were invited to address the meeting."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/11/18/tea-party-occupy-protests_n_1101129.html

nailingit — November 18, 2011 at 10:39 a.m. ( | suggest removal


nailingit — November 18, 2011 at 8:36 a.m.

Nailingit, that was a very nice bio on The One. If you were to assume all of it to be true, still not a lot of meat on those bones. I know how easy it is to copy and paste Wiki, I've done it many times. If you weren't so enamored by the man you would have read the cites that Wiki quoted, all of them were either news stories, op eds, quotes from his books, or information he provided, all after 2004. Do you accept heresay information as best source when the real best evidence exists but is just referred to?

Rightwing_Extremist — November 18, 2011 at 11:48 a.m. ( | suggest removal


Uh boy...

Folks, I was going to remain silent from the Columbian because of something I was actually afraid to mention...but it's my duty to say this to all of you because if I don't, then I believe I'm letting my friends and neighbors down. Yes, I'm danged serious about this so please bear with me when I share this. It's about yesterday, November 17, 2011 and the OWS protests.

All I can say is if you truly have the interests of the people of the United States in your heart when you THINK you are doing us a favor by protesting in front of Chase Bank or any other bank like the people did yesterday...I must tell you that you are a puppet on a string to the world's biggest organized anti-capitalist movement in the world. For those of you who claim your are anti capitalist, I certainly hope you aren't trying to make a mint in your job or your business because that would make you a hypocrite.

Okay...now the reason why I am sharing this is because yesterday marks Day Number One for the assault on US soil by those whose intentions are to cause chaos, disruption, fear and imminent economic destruction to an already weakened economy. Doesn't this sound familiar??? Alright, I'll stop my little comment of intrigue. All I can say is this. Do a little homework and google "November 17 Greece Terrorism" and you will find out that this is a group that has been going global with the initial day of attack to cripple our already weakened economy...and I believe it's meant to bring down those nations which once prospered as independent nations - the US included.

That is all I have to say for now, but please folks...take this one serious. We can be part of the solution, not the problem. We need to work together as a nation to prevent another meltdown like Greece is experiencing with starvation and death, chaos and mayhem.

Just think about what I am saying...do the research...then decide for yourselves whether or not what I have to say is true.

God help us all.

goldenoldie — November 18, 2011 at 11:51 a.m. ( | suggest removal


Thank you goldenoldie for this as I had a conversation with a friend whom was in the mix yesterday and called me to see if I would join them......My words was Hell NO I won't do this as they do not speak for me! So many are following like lambs and it reaks of terrorism at it's finest.

Start boycotting banks and put your money into credit unions. Use your internet to flood those in power and make a change by getting truly involved. Follow the money on the deals that are being made and make sure you know whom you are voting for and what reasons. Status quo is the problem and listen to those that are in power as they speak about oweing folks that give them money??

karma — November 18, 2011 at 1 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Goldie

The occupy movement was essentially dead save for bums, druggies, and kooks. Then with the union organizing efforts and participation along comes N17. This is no coincidence. You know Greek history well and N17, 1973 began terrible rioting that was organized. I said from the beginning of this with the Day of Rage on Sept 17th, this was a union backed effort coming from The One paid for with foreign money. The majority protesting are truly 'useful idiots', the others know exactly what they are doing.

Rightwing_Extremist — November 18, 2011 at 1:18 p.m. ( | suggest removal


The OWS movement was over before it began, because they had no cohesive message. I find the biggest danger from this movement is that many that claim to support the constitution are willing to cheer as protesters are maced, beaten and physicality removed. As a conservative I support little if any of their statements, but as a conservative freedom of speech and assembly must be upheld, no matter how much you disagree with their message.

frobert — November 18, 2011 at 1:37 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Karma, Rightwing Extremist and Frobert, apparently I wasn't alone in my thoughts regarding N17...and Rightwing, you have proven that to me in your comment, but even Nailingit's BFF (sarcasm intended BTW, Nailingit) had made a statement today regarding the matter as well. Here's his link:

http://www.glennbeck.com/content/blog/stu/occupy-wall-st-honors-communist-terrorist-group-with-new-protest/

And Nailingit...before trying to say I'm some groupie of GB, I am not. In fact, I attribute the conclusion I had come to realize due to my relatives who are suffering the ills of a dead economic situation in Greece, following the news on Greek Television and BBC and remembering the arrests of SOME of the N17 terrorist sect IN Athens. It just happened that GB had realized the same info as I had.

goldenoldie — November 18, 2011 at 2:01 p.m. ( | suggest removal


RWE @ 11:48- Not sure of your point. Please instruct me as to what is factually incorrect with the post in question. Not enamored in the least, that is until I compare him with the current GOP leaders that want his job. :))

nailingit — November 18, 2011 at 2:49 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Sigh**Strong**......................................................................

nailingit — November 18, 2011 at 2:56 p.m. ( | suggest removal


**I meant Sigh....much much strong. :)) :((......amazing.**

nailingit — November 18, 2011 at 2:59 p.m. ( | suggest removal



I'm sure many conspiracy theories exist. Sometimes I'm not aware of them until I watch Fox news, debunking an argument, or from a few posters here. Sometimes I'm just taken aback.

http://www.yesmagazine.org/blogs/sarah-van-gelder/dear-glenn-beck-its-not-conspiracy-its-courage

http://mediamatters.org/research/201102250057

http://www.newshounds.us/2011/10/15/geraldo_rivera_smacks_down_glenn_becks_hatemongering_conspiracy_theory_about_occupy_wall_street_protests.php

nailingit — November 18, 2011 at 3:22 p.m. ( | suggest removal


**Mormon Prophecy Behind Glenn Beck's Message**

Large numbers of Mormons watch Beck, **but likely an even larger number of his viewers and radio listeners are evangelical Protestants who have no idea that Beck is preaching to them an obscure prophecy of the Latter-day Saints** -- a faith many conservative Christians malign as a cult. In addition to the coded allusions to the White Horse Prophecy, he often brings Mormon theology into his broadcasts (he touts the thinking of late church president Ezra Taft Benson and he frequently promotes the work Mormon conspiracy theorist Cleon Skousen) but without identifying them with the LDS church.

"The church's fifth presiding bishop, Charles Nibley, believed that "the day would come when there would be so much of disorder, of secret combinations taking the law into their own hands, tramping upon Constitutional rights and the liberties of the people, that the Constitution would hang as by a thread. Yes, but it will still hang, and there will be enough of good people, many who may not belong to our Church at all, people who have respect for law and for order, and for Constitutional rights, who will rally around with us and save the Constitution."
"
The prophecy was renewed with each generation of church leadership. "The prophet Joseph Smith said the time will come when, through secret organizations taking the law into their own hands . . . the Constitution of the United States would be so torn and rent asunder, and life and property and peace and security would be held of so little value, that the Constitution would, as it were, hang by a thread," church apostle Melvin Ballard said in 1928. "This Constitution will be preserved, but it will be preserved very largely in consequence of what the Lord has revealed and what this people, through listening to the Lord and being obedient, will help to bring about, to stabilize and give permanency and effect to the Constitution itself. That also is our mission."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/dana-milbank/post_996_b_749750.html

nailingit — November 18, 2011 at 3:34 p.m. ( | suggest removal


**Glenn Beck-Approved Goldline Charged With 19 Criminal Counts Of Fraud And Theft**

"Goldline International, the precious metal retailer that has capitalized on conservatives’ anxiety about the economy by forging synergistic relationships with right wing TV and radio hosts, is facing a new series of legal challenges after authorities filed criminal charges against the company and its executives yesterday. Several major conservative talkers — including two former GOP presidential candidates..."

"While former Fox News conspiracy-theorist Glenn Beck is most closely associated with Goldline, Sean Hannity, Laura Ingraham, and Mark Levin, former GOP presidential candidates Mike Huckabee and Fred Thompson, and several Fox News hosts, among others, have all endorsed the company."

http://thinkprogress.org/economy/2011/11/02/359156/goldline-international-fraud/

Hey guys, I some swampland in Montana I'll sell you! People .... never mind .... **sigh**.

nailingit — November 18, 2011 at 4 p.m. ( | suggest removal


BTW people... in spite of Bill O'Righty, Rush and fox news, OWS is not over. Quit watching fox...for Crist's sake, and those that cherish his values.

nailingit — November 18, 2011 at 4:12 p.m. ( | suggest removal


***freedom of speech and assembly must be upheld, no matter how much you disagree with their message.***

but forgotten in all this narcissistic preening is this quote:

> "The right to swing my fist ends where
> the other man's nose begins." - Oliver
> Wendell Holmes

DeeLittle — November 18, 2011 at 4:33 p.m. ( | suggest removal


karma — November 18, 2011 at 1 p.m.

goldenoldie — November 18, 2011 at 11:51 a.m.

Rightwing_Extremist — November 18, 2011 at 1:18 p.m.

frobert — November 18, 2011 at 1:37 p.m

So, other than some mutual backslapping, there seems a complete lack of any evidence to support your claims.

However, you may be interested in Paul Ryan's pov:

http://thinkprogress.org/special/2011/11/17/371629/sign-99-percent-are-winning/

mr_basil_seal — November 18, 2011 at 4:40 p.m. ( | suggest removal


DeeLittle — November 18, 2011 at 4:33 p.m.

"The right to swing my fist" Is not an enumerated right, speech and peaceable assembly are. In order to curtail an enumerated right it would have to infringe on an enumerated right. Or do you follow the "liberal philosophy that what ever the government does is okay because the government did it.

frobert — November 18, 2011 at 4:46 p.m. ( | suggest removal


mr_basil_seal — November 18, 2011 at 4:40 p.m.

I really do not understanding what you are questioning. My opinion that OWS lacks a coherent message or that the biggest danger is to our constitutional rights?

frobert — November 18, 2011 at 4:49 p.m. ( | suggest removal


frobert — November 18, 2011 at 4:49 p.m.

*"The OWS movement was over before it began, because they had no cohesive message"*

part of the mutually unsupported backslapping.

mr_basil_seal — November 18, 2011 at 5:07 p.m. ( | suggest removal


This Changes Everything: How the 99% Woke Up
Introducing the movement that’s shifting our vision of what kind of world is possible...
by Sarah van Gelder

Inspired by the Arab Spring and uprisings in Europe, sparked by a challenge from Adbusters magazine to show up at Wall Street on September 17 and “bring a tent,” and encouraged by veteran New York activists, a few thousand people gathered in the financial district of New York City. At the end of the day, some of them set up camp in Zuccotti Park and started what became a national—and now international—movement.

The Occupy movement, as it has come to be called, named the source of the crises of our time: Wall Street banks, big corporations, and others among the 1% are claiming the world’s wealth for themselves at the expense of the 99% and having their way with our governments. This is a truth that political insiders and the media had avoided, even while the assets of the top 1% reached levels not seen since the 1920s. But now that this genie is out of the bottle, it can’t easily be put back in.

The shame many of us felt when we couldn’t find a job, pay down our debts, or keep our home is being replaced by a political awakening.

http://www.yesmagazine.org/people-power/this-changes-everything-how-the-99-woke-up
Without offices, paid staff, or a bank account, Occupy Wall Street quickly spread beyond New York. People gathered in Boston, Chicago, Los Angeles, Portland, Atlanta, San Diego, and hundreds of other cities around the United States and claimed the right of we the people to create a world that works for the 99%. In a matter of weeks, the occupations and protests had spread worldwide, to over 1,500 cities, from Madrid to Cape Town and from Buenos Aires to Hong Kong, involving hundreds of thousands of people.

mr_basil_seal — November 18, 2011 at 5:10 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Occupy Wall Street: The Most Important Thing in the World Now
Naomi Klein

If there is one thing I know, it is that the 1 percent loves a crisis. When people are panicked and desperate and no one seems to know what to do, that is the ideal time to push through their wish list of pro-corporate policies: privatizing education and social security, slashing public services, getting rid of the last constraints on corporate power. Amidst the economic crisis, this is happening the world over.

And there is only one thing that can block this tactic, and fortunately, it’s a very big thing: the 99 percent. And that 99 percent is taking to the streets from Madison to Madrid to say “No. We will not pay for your crisis.”

That slogan began in Italy in 2008. It ricocheted to Greece and France and Ireland and finally it has made its way to the square mile where the crisis began.

“Why are they protesting?” ask the baffled pundits on TV. Meanwhile, the rest of the world asks: “What took you so long?” “We’ve been wondering when you were going to show up.” And most of all: “Welcome.”

http://www.thenation.com/article/163844/occupy-wall-street-most-important-thing-world-now

mr_basil_seal — November 18, 2011 at 5:12 p.m. ( | suggest removal


mr_basil_seal — November 18, 2011 at 5:07 p.m

That was strictly my opinion, I was making a point that supporting the constitutional rights of those you disagree with is every bit as important as supporting them for those you agree with.

frobert — November 18, 2011 at 5:20 p.m. ( | suggest removal



The Brave New World of Occupy Wall Street
Amy Goodman

We got word just after 1 a.m. Tuesday that New York City police were raiding the Occupy Wall Street encampment. I raced down with the “Democracy Now!” news team to Zuccotti Park, renamed Liberty Square. Hundreds of riot police had already surrounded the area. As they ripped down the tents, city sanitation workers were throwing the protesters’ belongings into dump trucks. Beyond the barricades, back in the heart of the park, 200 to 300 people locked arms, refusing to cede the space they had occupied for almost two months. They were being handcuffed and arrested, one by one.

The few of us members of the press who managed to get through all the police lines were sent to a designated area across the street from Zuccotti Park. As our cameras started rolling, they placed two police buses in front of us, blocking our view. My colleagues and I managed to slip between them and into the park, climbing over the trashed mounds of tents, tarps and sleeping bags. The police had almost succeeded in enforcing a complete media blackout of the destruction.

We saw a broken bookcase in one pile. Deeper in the park, I spotted a single book on the ground. It was marked “OWSL,” for Occupy Wall Street Library, also known as the People’s Library, one of the key institutions that had sprung up in the organic democracy of the movement. By the latest count, it had accumulated 5,000 donated books. The one I found, amidst the debris of democracy that was being hauled off to the dump, was “Brave New World Revisited,” by Aldous Huxley.

http://www.truthdig.com/report/item/brave_new_world_of_occupy_wall_street_20111115/

mr_basil_seal — November 18, 2011 at 5:22 p.m. ( | suggest removal


That was strictly my opinion, I was making a point that supporting the constitutional rights of those you disagree with is every bit as important as supporting them for those you agree with.

frobert — November 18, 2011 at 5:20 p.m.

frobert — November 18, 2011 at 4:49 p.m.

"The OWS movement was over before it began, because they had no cohesive message"

mr_basil_seal — November 18, 2011 at 5:25 p.m. ( | suggest removal


For those on the right that support police use of force in situations like this...do you understand what it means to be an American? I could give a crap if you served in the military, or your kids, or your grandkids.....or your great grandkids....if you vote on a regular basis, if you proudly carry and conceal to protect yourselves from the evildoers.....if you think the police are justified in this video abusing an Iraq war veteran to the point of lacerating his spleen....

...then let me echo the 'Patriotic Millionaires' advice to Grover Norquist the other day. "Move to Somalia"!

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/video/2011/nov/18/occupy-oakland-veteran-beaten-police-video?fb=native

nailingit — November 18, 2011 at 5:28 p.m. ( | suggest removal


“A small body of determined spirits fired by an unquenchable faith in their mission can alter the course of history.”

Mohandas Gandhi

manthou — November 18, 2011 at 5:33 p.m. ( | suggest removal


mr_basil_seal — November 18, 2011 at 5:25 p.m

If you "cherry pick" what I said, you miss the entire point. You should go back and read my posts on the OWS protests.

frobert — November 18, 2011 at 5:35 p.m. ( | suggest removal


frobert — November 18, 2011 at 5:35 p.m.

Go ahead and copy paste whatever you think counters your claim of 4:49 p.m.

"The OWS movement was over before it began, because they had no cohesive message"

mr_basil_seal — November 18, 2011 at 5:40 p.m. ( | suggest removal



nailingit — November 18, 2011 at 5:28 p.m.

Hardly an isolated event, and hardly limited to #OWS actions, is the rapid rise in the militarization of our nation's police forces.

**Lessons of a Police Chief: Militarization Is a Mistake**

by: Norm Stamper

External political factors are also to blame, such as the continuing madness of the drug war. Last year police arrested 1.6 million nonviolent drug offenders. In New York City alone almost 50,000 people (overwhelmingly black, Latino or poor) were busted for possession of small amounts of marijuana—some of it, we have recently learned, planted by narcotics officers. The counterproductive response to 9/11, in which the federal government began providing military equipment and training even to some of the smallest rural departments, has fueled the militarization of police forces. Everyday policing is characterized by a SWAT mentality, every other 911 call a military mission. What emerges is a picture of a vital public-safety institution perpetually at war with its own people. The tragic results—raids gone bad, wrong houses hit, innocent people and family pets shot and killed by police—are chronicled in Radley Balko’s excellent 2006 report Overkill: The Rise of Paramilitary Police Raids in America.

Even as police officers help to safeguard the power and profits of the 1 percent, police officers are part of the 99 percent.

It is ironic that those police officers who are busting up the Occupy protesters are themselves victims of the same social ills the demonstrators are combating: corporate greed; the slackening of essential regulatory systems; and the abject failure of all three branches of government to safeguard civil liberties and to protect, if not provide, basic human needs like health, housing, education and more. With cities and states struggling to balance the budget while continuing to deliver public safety, many cops are finding themselves out of work. And, as many Occupy protesters have pointed out, even as police officers help to safeguard the power and profits of the 1 percent, police officers are part of the 99 percent.

http://www.truth-out.org/lessons-police-chief-militarization-mistake/1321547745

mr_basil_seal — November 18, 2011 at 5:45 p.m. ( | suggest removal


mr_basil_seal — November 18, 2011 at 5:40 p.m.

Obviously, you don't grasp the concept of supporting the constitutional rights of those you disagree with you, so you have no basis to even understand my argument. Your posts on this subject has become a waste of my time. I fully support the right of OWS protesters to peaceably assemble, and to their freedom of speech, you seem to think I have to agree with what they are saying.

frobert — November 18, 2011 at 5:47 p.m. ( | suggest removal


@ 4:12...it should read for "Christ's" sake..."

mr_basil_seal- It amazes me that many who preach "small government", are quick to justify and endorse the use of force when Americans are peacefully protesting. And all the while demeaning the very people that are standing up for their best interests and demanding change in what everyone agrees is a corrupt system.

I have to think the power of right wing media, their followers, and the politicians who endorse harsh austerity measures rather than seeking revenue hikes and closing corporate tax loopholes, are the very ones bringing about what could be the destruction of Capitalism, and they are doing it trumping American patriotism as their inspiration! If art imitates art imitating life, then is this life in the abstract imitating Andy Warhol?

nailingit — November 18, 2011 at 5:48 p.m. ( | suggest removal


frobert — November 18, 2011 at 5:47 p.m

We can argue Constitution anytime you want; but this quote by you - *The OWS movement was over before it began, because they had no cohesive message* - has nothing to do with constitutional issues.

It does, however, have a lot to do with repeating a right wing meme attempting to distract from what is a robust protest over a very specific and narrow set of concerns.

Not to mention a range of possible solutions.

mr_basil_seal — November 18, 2011 at 5:56 p.m. ( | suggest removal


"next to of course god america i
love you land of the pilgrims' and so forth oh
say can you see by the dawn's early my
country 'tis of centuries come and go
and are no more what of it we should worry
in every language even deafanddumb
thy sons acclaim your glorious name by gorry
by jingo by gee by gosh by gum
why talk of beauty what could be more beaut-
iful than these heroic happy dead
who rushed like lions to the roaring slaughter
they did not stop to think they died instead
then shall the voice of liberty be mute?"
He spoke. And drank rapidly a glass of water

Edward Estlin Cummings

mr_basil_seal — November 18, 2011 at 6:08 p.m. ( | suggest removal


a badly formatted response to

nailingit — November 18, 2011 at 5:48 p.m.

mr_basil_seal — November 18, 2011 at 6:10 p.m. ( | suggest removal


...and yet the format speaks volumes!

nailingit — November 18, 2011 at 6:43 p.m. ( | suggest removal


mr_basil_seal — November 18, 2011 at 5:56 p.m.

You have missed my entire point, which is agreement or disagreement with them is irrelevant. Supporting their righs is all that matters.

Sigh...

frobert — November 18, 2011 at 6:43 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Projected on the Verizon Building in NYC last night were these words:

“99% / MIC CHECK! / LOOK AROUND / YOU ARE A PART / OF A GLOBAL UPRISING / WE ARE A CRY / FROM THE HEART / OF THE WORLD / WE ARE UNSTOPPABLE / ANOTHER WORLD IS POSSIBLE / HAPPY BIRTHDAY / OCCUPY MOVEMENT / OCCUPY WALL STREET / list of cities, states and countries / OCCUPY EARTH / WE ARE WINNING / IT IS THE BEGINNING OF THE BEGINNING / DO NOT BE AFRAID / LOVE.”

manthou — November 18, 2011 at 6:49 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Main stream political operatives are hatching a plan to take down the Occupy Wallstreet movement?

So says Rachel Maddow in an end-of-show tease.

Stay tuned.

manthou — November 18, 2011 at 6:56 p.m. ( | suggest removal


fro...

obviously, my quote was not about swinging arms (grasping, fro...bad form)

another's free speech rights END when they prevent me from going to work, do my banking, or even simply driving down the street.

DeeLittle — November 18, 2011 at 7:21 p.m. ( | suggest removal


The only problem I have with the police at the occupy protests are their using of pepper spray. They need to use something stronger as long as it only gets on the deadbeats who are protesting. Then, bring in the snowplows and clear the streets of them.

cranky — November 18, 2011 at 7:22 p.m. ( | suggest removal


goldie @ 11:51 am: I am a sucker for scary stories and conspiracy theories, but I truly think you can relax about Occupy Wall Street.

What we are seeing throughout the country is spontaneous democracy: Government for the people by the people in action. The right to assemble. The right to speak freely (and creatively, and loudly).

I am in awe.

manthou — November 18, 2011 at 7:29 p.m. ( | suggest removal


manthou — November 18, 2011 at 7:29 p.m.

Have you noticed in their meetings where someone speaks and everyone else repeats exactly what the first person says? My guess is that there are 1 to 3 % of the groups that are running the show and everyone else is just following along.

Can you say Baaaaaaaaa?

hawkeye — November 18, 2011 at 8:46 p.m. ( | suggest removal


DeeLittle — November 18, 2011 at 7:21 p.m.

Free speech doesn't end because it is Inconvenient, the bar needs to be set pretty high before we suppress the first amendment.

frobert — November 18, 2011 at 8:59 p.m. ( | suggest removal


cranky- It's unfortunate you advocate violence to silence free speech. I guess America's soldiers are hero's when they are overseas and out of sight defending your right to advocate violence against them once they return home.

Move to Somalia.

nailingit — November 18, 2011 at 9:15 p.m. ( | suggest removal


hawkeye @ 8:36...It's hard to get three people in one room to agree on anything, let alone putting their collective A's on the line for fairness.

DeeLittle @ 7:21- Your post speaks to a larger issue. A party/portion of "American" society whose sense of freedom is to control what they don't understand. Thank you for your post.

Move to Somalia.

nailingit — November 18, 2011 at 9:22 p.m. ( | suggest removal


~If I lived in China or even Russia, or any totalitarian country, maybe I could understand the denial of certain basic First Amendment privileges, because they hadn't committed themselves to that over there. But somewhere I read of the freedom of assembly. Somewhere I read of the freedom of speech. Somewhere I read of the freedom of the press. Somewhere I read that the greatness of America is the right to protest for right.~ MLK

nailingit — November 18, 2011 at 9:30 p.m. ( | suggest removal


nailingit — November 18, 2011 at 2:49 p.m.

My point was exactly what I said, you are either lazy or willing to accept Wiki's version at face value. As I said before, why does Wiki have all their cites that are hearsay at best? Let me repeat again, why with best evidence available, are you not using it?

Rightwing_Extremist — November 18, 2011 at 10:16 p.m. ( | suggest removal


RWE- Again...blame the source, blame me, blame whoever, but since you've chosen to take issue with my 8:36 post, as well as not address my inquiry @ 2:49 , I'll repeat them for you. And BTW since you have done a 180 and now advocate "shooting the messenger" as you have frowned upon doing in the past with my criticism of your "Andrew Breitbart" posts. LOL! And given that you tend to source with Breitbart, Fox news, and echo at times Limbaugh word for word, your idea of "best evidence available" and mine would...differ! LOL Wiki, the bible, wallstreet journal...I suppose if I said the Garden of Eden was in Mizzou, and didn't quote Joe I would be wrong? But isn't it anyway?!? :)) Anyway bub...this redux's for you, and the spirit/context it was applied.

What a difference 8 months make! Of course we didn't realize such strong GOP contenders for leading the free world would come into play. Great GOP leaders and readily groomed for the office of the Presidency.

Leaders like Rick Perry, Michele Bachmann, Rick Santorum and Herman Cain.

:)))))))))))))))))))))))

hawkeye- God knows what flavor December will bring. I hope this prints out okay. I thought I would print a brief Barack Obama job resume for those that were denouncing his qualifications for Presidency in 08. Amazing how standards change!

Incumbent Assumed office January 20, 2009 Vice President Joe Biden Preceded by George W. Bush United States Senator from Illinois In office January 3, 2005 – November 16, 2008 Preceded by Peter Fitzgerald Succeeded by Roland Burris Chairman of the Senate Foreign Relations Subcommittee on European Affairs In office January 4, 2007 – November 16, 2008 Preceded by George F. Allen Succeeded by Jeanne Shaheen Illinois State Senator from the 13th District In office January 8, 1997 – November 4, 2004 Preceded by Alice Palmer Succeeded by Kwame Raoul Personal details Born Barack Hussein Obama II August 4, 1961 (age 50)[1] Honolulu, Hawaii, U.S.[2] Political party Democratic Party Spouse(s) Michelle Obama (1992–present) Children Malia (b.1998) Sasha (b.2001) Residence White House (Official) Chicago, Illinois (Private) Alma mater Occidental College Columbia University (B.A.) Harvard Law School (J.D.) Profession Community organizer Lawyer Constitutional law professor Author Religion Christianity[3] Signature
Website The White House Barack Obama This article is part of a series on Barack Obama

RWE @ 11:48- Not sure of your point. Please instruct me as to what is factually incorrect with the post in question. Not enamored in the least, that is until I compare him with the current GOP leaders that want his job. :))

nailingit — November 18, 2011 at 10:46 p.m. ( | suggest removal


manthou — November 18, 2011 at 7:29 p.m.

When you say "What we are seeing throughout the country is spontaneous democracy: Government for the people by the people in action. The right to assemble. The right to speak freely (and creatively, and loudly)", you do understand we are a constitutional republic and have never been a democracy?

Since you did bring up democracy and OWS has claimed to be a continuation of The Arab Spring, how is that democracy working out for Egypt, Libya, and Turkey? Since they now have freed themselves from the shackles of a Republic, Dictatorship, and Democratic Republics respectively, they now all enjoy Theocracies. That worked out well for non-Muslims didn't it?

Rightwing_Extremist — November 18, 2011 at 10:53 p.m. ( | suggest removal


nailingit — November 18, 2011 at 10:46 p.m.

Yet again you failed to understand what I said. All of us have posted links, I was referring to the cites Wiki used. You would think they could go to the source for just one of them, I guess not.

Rightwing_Extremist — November 18, 2011 at 11:18 p.m. ( | suggest removal


"I am involved in a freedom ride protesting the loss of the minority rights belonging to the few remaining earthbound stars. All we demanded was our right to twinkle."

~Marilyn Monroe~

nailingit — November 18, 2011 at 11:18 p.m. ( | suggest removal


@ 1:48-"I know how easy it is to copy and paste Wiki, I've done it many times." Well...all righty then.

"Yet again you failed to understand what I said." Hey, we can't all be the sharpest knife in the drawer! :))

"You would think they could go to the source for just one of them, I guess not." I failed to see your desire to collaborate on the deficiencies of Wiki with your original post. I don't use Wiki a great deal, but if you would like a link in which to identify with...

http://complaintwiki.org/wiki/Main_Page

nailingit — November 18, 2011 at 11:34 p.m. ( | suggest removal


"*agreement or disagreement with them is irrelevant. Supporting their righs is all that matters."
Sigh...
frobert — November 18, 2011 at 6:43 p.m*

A point which is mirroring rw talking points that you have not found any actual evidence for.

Which is why I lumped your post with the others.

rw, conservative beltway, talk radio talking points of no merit with no support.

mr_basil_seal — November 19, 2011 at 4:37 a.m. ( | suggest removal


To those who doubt my word and believe I have no basis for my opinion, here's some reading from a couple of years ago that you might find interesting. If you can't see a similarity in what we are experiencing...the verbiage being utilized with OWS and what the original N17 organizers were saying...then keep your blinders on and continue to tell yourselves there's nothing to worry about:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7811914.stm

And Basil, you need to do a bit more studying about N17 and their history in Greece before claiming I have no basis for my comments. They were a revolutionary anti-Capitalist, Marxist movement who took to violent actions...assaults on innocent people, attacks on government and banks, etcetera. They were fighting the very same issues we are facing today.

What we are watching is a worldwide rebirth of the very same revolutionary group who will stop at nothing to get what they want. You may not see supergluing ATM's and doors to banks as an attack. You may not see rocks thrown through bank windows ans stores as an attack. You may not see etching of glass or spray painting of patrol cars with the word Occupy and Anarchist symbols on small businesses in every major city in the US as an attack. You may not see the Molotov cocktail thrown on the steps of the World Trade Center in Portland as an attack although the buildings host hundreds of small businesses within it's doors (I know this because I used to work in that very same building and know of others who are currently working there), providing jobs for many people whose lives were put at risk by one who decided to take violent actions. You may not see the shove of a police officer into a moving bus as an attack. You may not see punching and shoving of a police horse as an attack. You may not see blockading roads so other 99%ers could get to their jobs as an attack. You may not see shutting down of transit lines so people who DO work can get home safely as an attack. You may not see the costs incurred to control the crowds by the police and fire departments as an attack on the 99%ers. And you may not see the flaming accelerant which was thrown at the Portland Police Officer who received cuts and burns to his legs as an attack...

But I do.

goldenoldie — November 19, 2011 at 6:06 a.m. ( | suggest removal


...continued

This is only the beginning, Basil. We will face the very same result Greece has since the 70's and our nation will fall just as Greece has. Money is power. Just because the building at Wall Street was temporarily blocked, do you really think that stopped the world markets from doing what they are doing? Do you really think the banks were hurting? The money the little people have in the banks isn't nearly the issue. The debts the Americans are frustrated with...the banks don't care. They will still get their money and the Elitists will still control the nation -

And it WON'T eliminate the problem.

Keep your blinders on and wave your sign...march in solidarity for what you believe in, Basil. Just remember this. When you sit in your FEMA encampment and your loved ones will be waiting in line for their daily rations as mandated by Martial Law, and you'll be scratching your head wondering just what went wrong...rest assured, you will remember the words I shared.

goldenoldie — November 19, 2011 at 6:07 a.m. ( | suggest removal


manthou — November 18, 2011 at 7:29 p.m.

I have no issues with the right to freedom of assembly, the right to freedom of speech. In fact, I support our rights wholeheartedly. Heck, why else would I voice what I do. I'm exercising my rights as well. That has never been the point in my comments. The fact that everyone is blindly omitting from their comments is that if the people with Occupy (wherever) were actually exercising their rights, then why are the police there, controlling their every move? Why do the mayors have control of where and when people can march? Why do they have the control of where occupiers can sleep and eat?

It's because BIG BROTHER is watching. They are controlling the people. The people are puppets on a string. Isn't it interesting that just before the onslaught of a good number of our fighting brave are coming back home at the same time as emotions are elevated to the point of violent actions and injuries across America in the Occupations? You think it's only the PPD and Multnomah County Sheriff Officers who were standing over the citizens? Girl, there were OSP, WSP, VPD, CCSO, Clackamas County, Washington County, Feds...you name it - they're there...and they were all watching and recording. Why do you think the police are taking videos of the entire course of activities? They are definitely getting faces and names, my dear. This is NO CONSPIRACY. It's history repeating itself.

I guarantee you that if this continues to escalate, none of us will be making comments in news websites, in web blogs or any internet service. All it takes is one little, teeny tiny signature by our Commander in Chief...and I don't doubt for a second that he'd hesitate for a second.

At least I know I can say openly and honestly -----

Don't say I didn't warn you.

goldenoldie — November 19, 2011 at 6:16 a.m. ( | suggest removal


My final comment to all - Basil, I could have shown you a dozen web sites which would have confirmed my comments but you still would not have been able to see the message I was sharing, so I'll leave it at that. I've given you all my opinion with obvious concerns for which some of you would try your hardest to discredit as that is your given right. Don't abuse your rights...embrace them. Who knows how much longer we have these rights???

Nailingit, I guarantee you...I have not been watching GB anywhere. I have not been reading his works...nothing. You really need to open your eyes sometimes and look at just where it is he gets his information. You'd be surprised to find out...it IS what is going on and you are only reading his opinion of the matter. It appears to me you are the one who is focused on his messages, only so you can go after his comments and anybody who might have opinions similar to his. Again, that is your right to do so...embrace your rights while you still have them.

To everyone else...think long and hard about your lives. Think long and hard about how people have become wealthy and what you could have done to increase your wealth. It was Herman Cain who said it right, but nobody could hear because there were already prejudices against the man so his words went unnoticed. We live in the land of opportunity and everybody has that opportunity to fulfill their own destiny. We have nobody to blame but ourselves for those of us who live in the world of have nots. Those who are in the top 1%...well, they grasped onto the haves and capitalized on it...and we condemn them because we didn't have the silver spoon or we didn't have the knowledge gained in order to live in that higher wage bracket.

We complain daily about NAFTA and how jobs have gone away. We complain daily about how US-made goods are becoming a rarity. Well DAMNIT PEOPLE!!! Do something about it, stop your complaining and get your backsides to work!!! The ONLY way our nation will be great again is if EVERYONE takes action against international markets and start reproducing that which was shipped off to other nations!

I wish you all well and remember this that an individual's wealth isn't necessarily measured in monetary gains.

Peace.

goldenoldie — November 19, 2011 at 6:27 a.m. ( | suggest removal


"revolutionary anti-Capitalist, Marxist movement who took to violent actions"
goldenoldie — November 19, 2011 at 6:06 a.m.

I put your original quote with the others because you are mirroring rw talking points that you have not found any actual evidence for.

rw, conservative beltway, talk radio talking points of no merit with no support.

Note that OWS positions are specifically non-violent;specifically looking at plutocratic excess ; specifically at how business - through lobbying and developing their own legislation - has overly influenced our government.

Now, IF you can show specific evidence that supports your conspiracy theory; IF you can show where OWS supports violence; then we can discuss them. But at this point, all it seems you and the others have done is recite those rw talking points.

mr_basil_seal — November 19, 2011 at 7:26 a.m. ( | suggest removal


"you still would not have been able to see the message I was sharing"

goldenoldie, I hope you realize that is the same sort of comment we used to get from Lew Waters, Ray Menlo, Bob Larimar, and is similar to the statements we see from many current posters spouting those same rw talking points.

IF there was some substance, we would see it. What we are getting from you (and others) are these vague warnings ala Glenn Beck, et al.

So, IF you have a viable position, we would see the evidence. Your (and others) unwillingness to bring it forward rather indicates an awareness that the evidence is flimsy at best.

And, instead, what we get is " I could have shown you a dozen web sites"

mr_basil_seal — November 19, 2011 at 7:36 a.m. ( | suggest removal


Ya know it's truly a sad day for our society to see there occupy folks not having a clue but turning to violence, which isn't helping their cause. This is the 21 century and there are ways one can lawfully make change but they would rather go back to the old ways of doing stuff. It just boggles the mind. Protests should be lawful and camping isn't that. When it costs the taxpayers or disrupts a community it's against the law. Again there is no leadership with this cause, no solid way of fixing what is broken, why? One can't fix what is broken by hitting a horse? Blocking banks or super glueing an ATM isn't fixing the problem. Take your money out of Big Banks and burning money show just how stupid they were? No hundred dollar bills were used? Use your brains & computers folks instead of you stupid feet or camping. But again that shows the caliber of folks wanting their 15 minutes of fame??
Just like Lou's article today??

karma — November 19, 2011 at 7:59 a.m. ( | suggest removal


I'm thinking this is one of the " dozen web sites"

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2796348/posts

mr_basil_seal — November 19, 2011 at 8:01 a.m. ( | suggest removal


*"Protests should be lawful and camping isn't that."*karma — November 19, 2011 at 7:59 a.m.

The law, in its majestic equality, forbids the rich as well as the poor to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal bread.

Anatole France

mr_basil_seal — November 19, 2011 at 8:04 a.m. ( | suggest removal


Lobbyists target OWS per Chris Hayes expose: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/45366471#45366471

Here's the thing: Protecting money and power is getting more important than protecting civil liberties.

goldie: I, too, worry about Big Brother. Whomever and whatever BB is changes with perspective, I think. For instance, the fact that big city mayors conspired together to shut down protesters is a big brother move. The lobbyists in Chris Hayes' report above are puppet masters for the banks, not the people.

One person's Big Brother is another's savior and champion.

I do think there is a concern about shutting down social media and internet, which has truly played a huge role in political protests globally, as you suggest. If the powers-that-be think there are problems controlling the voice of the people now, just wait until they try that move.

manthou — November 19, 2011 at 8:43 a.m. ( | suggest removal


Lou B's column today talks about the dilemma Mainstream Media (another Big Brother powerhouse, goldie) face in deciding when their coverage of protests become media manipulation.

Well, thanks to social media and the blogosphere, Lou, mainstream media has become less relevant. That worries print and TV journalists, as they have had to share that exclusive throne, reluctantly and begrudgingly, with the people's voices. Citizen journalists.

So, go ahead and pull that plug, Lou. Cover something else. Send the reporters elsewhere. Honestly, it won't make as much of a difference as it would have 5 years ago. When I want to see what is "trending" in news now, I rely on a variety of sources that often are more timely and informative than my hometown options.

manthou — November 19, 2011 at 8:53 a.m. ( | suggest removal


*" big city mayors conspired together "*

More accurately:

**'Occupy' crackdowns coordinated with federal law enforcement officials**

Rick Ellis, Minneapolis Top News Examiner

Over the past ten days, more than a dozen cities have moved to evict "Occupy" protesters from city parks and other public spaces. As was the case in last night's move in New York City, each of the police actions shares a number of characteristics. And according to one Justice official, each of those actions was coordinated with help from Homeland Security, the FBI and other federal police agencies.
http://www.examiner.com/top-news-in-minneapolis/were-occupy-crackdowns-aided-by-federal-law-enforcement-agencies

mr_basil_seal — November 19, 2011 at 9:14 a.m. ( | suggest removal


**A Militarized Force Takes to Zuccotti for the Economic Elite**
November 15, 2011 at 9:42AM by Charles P. Pierce

"It isn't difficult to stay alive, friends — just don't make trouble. Or, if you must make trouble, make the sort of trouble that's expected."
—Robert Bolt, A Man For All Seasons

Your right to peaceably assemble for the redress of grievances, and how you may do it, and what you may say, will be defined by the police power of the state, backed by its political establishment and the business elite. They will define "acceptable" forms of public protest, even (and especially) public protest against them. This is the way it is now. This is the way it has been for some time. It's just that people didn't notice. And that was the problem with the Occupy protests. They resisted the marginalization — both literal physical marginalization, and the kind of intellectual marginalization that keeps real solutions to real problems out of our kabuki political debates. They could not be ignored. In 1831, the abolitionist William Lloyd Garrison wrote of his own cause:
I am aware that many object to the severity of my language; but is there not cause for severity? I will be as harsh as truth, and as uncompromising as justice. On this subject, I do not wish to think, or to speak, or write, with moderation. No! No! Tell a man whose house is on fire to give a moderate alarm; tell him to moderately rescue his wife from the hands of the ravisher; tell the mother to gradually extricate her babe from the fire into which it has fallen; – but urge me not to use moderation in a cause like the present. I am in earnest – I will not equivocate – I will not excuse – I will not retreat a single inch — AND I WILL BE HEARD.
That was the real problem with the Occupy people. They were being heard.

http://www.esquire.com/blogs/politics/zuccotti-park-cleared-6561771

mr_basil_seal — November 19, 2011 at 9:17 a.m. ( | suggest removal


frobert, I have meant to comment on your recent posts, which are short, but carry a lot of truth. For example, you wrote:

"Free speech doesn't end because it is Inconvenient, the bar needs to be set pretty high before we suppress the first amendment."

We don't need to agree with the message to support the messenger's right to speak it. And creating an inconvenience is part of the point. A good reminder you gave, fro. :)

manthou — November 19, 2011 at 9:17 a.m. ( | suggest removal


goldenoldie: You wrote:

***I wish you all well and remember this that an individual's wealth isn't necessarily measured in monetary gains.
Peace.***

So true.

To steer the topic in another direction, I read an article from the Hillsboro Argus yesterday full of ideas on how to turn off the Christmas machine. Remember what the season is really about. Stop buying chotchkies from China. Still want to buy your grandma a present? Get her a service gift card from a local business: hairdresser, cafe, book dealer, etc. Offer your own services as a babysitter, chauffeur, house cleaner, etc. Give of yourself. Support local small business. Concentrate on showing good will and kindness.

We don't need to fill our homes with any more tinny gadgets from overseas factories, no matter how cute or cheap.

manthou — November 19, 2011 at 9:44 a.m. ( | suggest removal


**UC Davis Police Pepper-Spray Seated Students In Occupy Dispute (VIDEO) (UPDATE)**

"Roughly a minute later, the officer can be seen shaking the pepper spray canister as the gathered students start shouting, "Don't shoot your children!"

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/11/19/uc-davis-police-pepper-spray-students_n_1102728.html

nailingit — November 19, 2011 at 9:57 a.m. ( | suggest removal


The US government is all about control and the government itself, is to a great deal controlled by money-we all know where it comes from. When I hear people saying BS like the Occupy thing is too disorganized, they need to get a focus, and address officials on clear issues, I shake my head. I myself, used to feel that was the best method. No more. What use is it to turn to a dysfunction, bought and paid for government to seek real reform? If anyone thinks the politicians will abandon their wealthy masters and address immense, strucural reforms needed, they're delusional. The system simply won't eat itself. Government's first mandate-survival and continuance.
The teabaggers took it to the system a year ago, and won a lot of elections. I wonder how long it'll take for them to lose their "hope and change" feelings. Play the game, work within the system, the masters will love you for it. After all, they control the system. You'll go as far as they'll permit. As long as politicians and masters play us for fools, the charade goes on.
Reform, the reform needed today not 10 years from now, will not occur until the government is looking at the real possibility of losing control, and that won't happen until there's a lot of people and fire in the streets.

mrd — November 19, 2011 at 10:09 a.m. ( | suggest removal


**Fox Nation Continues to Promote Occupy 'Link' to Attempted Obama Assassination**

http://blogs.villagevoice.com/runninscared/2011/11/fox_news_ortega-hernandez_obama.php

nailingit — November 19, 2011 at 10:12 a.m. ( | suggest removal


MISSSSTER BASIL SEAL:

http://www.cfr.org/greece/november-17-revolutionary-peoples-struggle-revolutionary-struggle-greece-leftists/p9275#p4

http://journals.hil.unb.ca/index.php/JCS/article/view/10547

If you don't see something wrong with the banner in the next link and the OWS folks' design of army tanks standing in resistance against the people, then I feel sorry for you, sir. This is clearly the OWS people showing they expect a military takeover which will hold them back.

http://occupywallst.org/article/mass-day-action-2-month-anniversary-occupy-wall-st/

Need I continue?

goldenoldie — November 19, 2011 at 10:12 a.m. ( | suggest removal


And Basil, I don't give a flippin' backside who you compare me with. I argue with them as I do you. You see Basil, I find folks like you as well as folks like Bob Larimer as the biggest part of the problem in the world. Neither one of you are willing to listen to what others have to say because you have already made your minds up in your stance. I am not part of any given political rant. I vote both sides of the ticket if and when I deem necessary. I speak from what I observe and have listened to BOTH sides of the ticket. So your little game of trying to manipulate everyone into thinking I'm some Far Right political hack is just about as ridiculous as the fact that you cannot accept the truth when it is put in front of you. Nice try, though.

Also...Freerepublic was not one of the websites, Basil. In fact, I steered clear of websites like those. Again, sorry to burst your rigid mindset.

goldenoldie — November 19, 2011 at 10:21 a.m. ( | suggest removal


karma — November 19, 2011 at 7:59 a.m.

-and-

manthou — November 19, 2011 at 9:44 a.m.

Amen to the both of you!!! I am in FULL agreement!

goldenoldie — November 19, 2011 at 10:28 a.m. ( | suggest removal


Good morning goldenoldie! I was wondering if you would share your sources on this matter. Where have you received your info? (outside of personal info concerning Greece)

"...now the reason why I am sharing this is because yesterday marks Day Number One for the assault on US soil by those whose intentions are to cause chaos, disruption, fear and imminent economic destruction to an already weakened economy."

"You'd be surprised to find out..."

"When you sit in your FEMA encampment and your loved ones will be waiting in line for their daily rations as mandated by Martial Law, and you'll be scratching your head wondering just what went wrong...rest assured, you will remember the words I shared."

"My final comment to all - Basil, I could have shown you a dozen web sites which would have confirmed my comments.."

This sounds very serious! No need for a dozen, how about half making it six? To follow this train of thought, and have it convincing so many people, their must be multiple credible sources/links. Thanks.

nailingit — November 19, 2011 at 10:44 a.m. ( | suggest removal


Basil:

http://tinyurl.com/c3ae74e

written by the gentleman in this link:

http://davidcanter.com/index.php?page=latest-books

goldenoldie — November 19, 2011 at 10:48 a.m. ( | suggest removal


nailingit — November 19, 2011 at 10:44 a.m.

And that is just what I am doing, nailingit. The funny side to this...all the information is so easy to find but people just aren't willing to take the time out to look. I'm no college professor...not even a school teacher, but Basil I'm sure knows his way around a library or two...as I do, whether it be in hard copy or online. All the information is at our fingertips, Nailingit. I am quite selective in the material I share. I could easily pull up the Wikipedia link for those who are less inclined to dutifully search for the information I share...but I don't classify Wiki as the best resource. Anybody who wants to though, can easily check out "N17-Greece" in their search engine in order to pull up a general descriptive layout by Wikipedia which actually confirms the information I have found on reliable sites.

I have provided what I believe to be adequate material. Now it's time for everyone to zone out of their video games, their I-Phones, their text messaging and catching the latest on the fashionista runway shows or the latest NASCAR race and start doing their own homework if they are serious in wanting to know the truth. If I have raised questions that people want answers...if they truly want to know the answers...then they can find it themselves. To put up a facade by personal attacks, even comparisons to other people they disagree with by those who display this as their only course of action against what I have said, then it is obvious they are not willing to take the chance to find out information that goes against their own personal cause...their own agenda -OR- because it actually bothers them that somebody else just might be right for a change.

I'm done playing this childish game. I've put my message out on the table. I have provided links to get folks started...to get people to think. It's obvious what I have shared is doing just that. Now I have better things to do in my life rather than playing into the feeble attempts at mind games of those who don't have a viable counter argument.

And Nailingit, I've enjoyed sharing notes, even sparred with you on occasion but life goes on and right now...I'm going to make the best of my life - and as part of the 99%er crowd, it's time I take the bull by the horns and make a difference. I wish you as well as everybody else peace and it is my hope that everyone finds their happiness in life and to take charge of their lives.

It's been quite an experience.

Adio, my friends.

goldenoldie — November 19, 2011 at 11:06 a.m. ( | suggest removal


***Free speech doesn't end because it is Inconvenient*** - frobert

one man's inconvenient is another man's daily support of his family. in the united states *i* live in, there must be respect for other's rights by *all*, or nobody's rights are safe.

DeeLittle — November 19, 2011 at 11:32 a.m. ( | suggest removal


fwiw....

we need you here, GO. there are too few of us volunteering for the front lines....we can't lose anybody.

DeeLittle — November 19, 2011 at noon ( | suggest removal


mrd@ 10:09 am: Your entire post should be repeated (it is spot on, in my opinion), but I will cut and paste a couple of sentences:

"If anyone thinks the politicians will abandon their wealthy masters and address immense, strucural reforms needed, they're delusional. The system simply won't eat itself."

manthou — November 19, 2011 at 12:07 p.m. ( | suggest removal


DeeLittle @ high noon (how appropriate): So you see this Forum participation as a battle? My goodness. Share your opinions (I enjoy reading them) but you will certainly be disappointed if you expect a winner/loser to triumph in the end.

There is a little bit of truth in all of this. Enjoy the diversity. Revel in the range of ideas. Have fun.

But you are setting yourself up for a world of disappointment if your expectation is for one side to win.

manthou — November 19, 2011 at 12:13 p.m. ( | suggest removal


nailingit: Thanks for sharing that video link at 9:57 am. Amazing.

I was wondering if you had a chance to see Chris Hayes' piece on the lobbyist memo this morning? I posted it at 8:43 am. Now the bankers are trying to distance themselves from it, so someone is scared.....

I think these are exciting times and I truly think that the Occupy WS protests will move some entitlement mountains.

manthou — November 19, 2011 at 12:19 p.m. ( | suggest removal


DeeLittle — November 19, 2011 at 11:32 a.m.

You are confusing convenience with rights. The Constitution protects the rights of the people from unreasonable incursion from the Government. We watch on the evening news as the rights of people and groups are trampled. We need to stop allowing these rights to be crushed based on our disagreement with their message or lifestyle. As a conservative I must stand up for everyone's rights. How can someone claim to support the Constitution when it comes to states rights or the right to keep and bear arms, and then condemn it when it comes to freedom of speech or freedom from unreasonable search and seizure?

frobert — November 19, 2011 at 2:24 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Salmonella - care to explain a bit more what you mean by the signs are here that what happened in Germany will happen here? What exactly are you referring to?

luvithere — November 19, 2011 at 2:39 p.m. ( | suggest removal


"Nailingit. I am quite selective in the material I share. I could easily pull up the Wikipedia link for those who are less inclined to dutifully search for the information I share...but I don't classify Wiki as the best resource. Anybody who wants to though, can easily check out "N17-Greece" in their search engine in order to pull up a general descriptive layout by Wikipedia **which actually confirms the information I have found on reliable sites."**

goldenoldie- I wish you well. I'm not understanding your statement I posted. You state (and understandably so) that wiki isn't the best source. I believe most would agree with that.

Then you reference wiki for 'confirmation' as to what you have found on "reliable sites".

When asked for those sites you lay claim to "a dozen", that not only share your point of view, but provide "confirmation" as to your claims. And again...it's wiki. What's up with that?

"Now I have better things to do in my life rather than playing into the feeble attempts at mind games of those who don't have a viable counter argument."

All righty then. You were asked for credible sources to validate incredible claims and you haven't stepped up to the plate in this regard. My sense is your sources would compromise your message with credibility issues. You made the claim of a dozen sources, and now not to back up a request for half that amount.......for whatever reason........

"...now the reason why I am sharing this is because yesterday marks Day Number One for the assault on US soil by those whose intentions are to cause chaos, disruption, fear and imminent economic destruction to an already weakened economy."

"With what examples have been shown to date, it is grandmothers, mothers, children, husbands, fathers, grandfathers, sons and daughters...all nationalities, all walks of life. Those who do have jobs come to stand with those who do not. Those who do have homes stand with those who do not. Those who have health insurance stand with those who do not. It is a United Effort. Anybody who tries to say it's a bunch of drugged hippies or people who are lazy..."

I feel sorry for their ignorance.

"It is apparent that you are one of the people who just don't get it, cranky. This protest isn't just about the unemployed or underemployed, the haves and the have nots. We stand together expecting change. Wall Street is the main focus of commerce, my friend...but the issue goes far beyond that and this is the best way for the PEOPLE of the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA to bring attention to insist on our government righting the wrong."

What happened?

nailingit — November 19, 2011 at 4:36 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Not trying to beat what should be a dead horse here but is this what we want for a President?

Several women have come forward with allegations against Cain. He has repeatedly denied the allegations, which have dogged his campaign.

During the interview Letterman says to Cain: "These statements are all false? All of these women are lying? They're all lying?"

"Yes," replies Cain. "They are."

During the show, Cain jokes that Letterman seems to be trying to talk him out of running for president with tough questions about the challenges facing the presidency.

***Hey Herman, if you can't face the easy ones, what are you going to do with the "Presidential" ones?***

hawkeye — November 19, 2011 at 6:27 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Cain, Perry, Bachman, Flippy Floppy Romney, Newty-the Republicans are sure fielding the best of the best, aren't they?

luvithere — November 19, 2011 at 6:39 p.m. ( | suggest removal


luvithere — November 19, 2011 at 6:39 p.m.

Those candidates are just diversions like Howard Dean. Paul, Johnson and Huntsman are the real candidates.

frobert — November 19, 2011 at 6:50 p.m. ( | suggest removal


luvithere: The Republicans are saving the best of their best for 2016. :) What we are seeing now is the B List: all expendable in the eyes of the Republican party, who really do not expect to win this time around.
_________________________________________________
Just read that Occupy Oakland is calling for a major shutdown of every port on the entire West Coast on 12/12/11. Just in time for Christmas and WalMart containers, I guess.

Wonder how this will play out in Portland and Vancouver?

manthou — November 19, 2011 at 6:51 p.m. ( | suggest removal


frobert: I agree with you about Huntsman, for sure. It is too bad he is polling so low.

manthou — November 19, 2011 at 6:52 p.m. ( | suggest removal


manthou — November 19, 2011 at 6:52 p.m.

Huntsman was third on my list for a reason, he may be a couple of steps above Romney, but he is no Paul or Johnson.

frobert — November 19, 2011 at 7:03 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Huntsman to me seems to be the one with a brain. Paul's thinking ain't to my liking whatsoever. Manthou: hope you are right and the prediction is a true one....

luvithere — November 19, 2011 at 7:18 p.m. ( | suggest removal


manthou @ 12:19...Crazy day! The mall is already full of people shopping for Christmas. I just saw the video...WOW!!! This will have legs through 2012, and help define the Republican party for those that have been absent of politics. The story and the tip of the iceberg it represents could go deep. Definitely one to follow!

It makes me wonder if conspiracy theories being generated by hard right conservatives such as Beck, are not only doing so to protect their personal interests, but being paid the big bucks from GOP donors and politicians to run smoke screens cloudy enough to generate confusion. In doing so diminish the message and movement.

nailingit — November 19, 2011 at 7:55 p.m. ( | suggest removal


luvithere — November 19, 2011 at 7:18 p.m.

Yes, Paul's anti war, pro civil liberties stand does scare many people on the left and right.

frobert — November 19, 2011 at 8:23 p.m. ( | suggest removal


O frobert, that part does not scare me. We are all anti-war, what's new with that? Pro civil rights? Sure.
certain social values I do hold dear? Not so much. Sorry, he is not my man. I do not share the rest of his views at all. I tend to look at the whole picture and all the stands, Paul will not get my vote period.

luvithere — November 19, 2011 at 8:50 p.m. ( | suggest removal


nailingit: It is the art of the innuendo, isn't it? Accuse someone of something, no matter how false or unsupported and a certain percentage of their listeners/readers/coven will take it as the truth and run with it. That's all it takes. Not much effort.

The 1 percent did not all get where they are through hard , honest work. Some got there by screwing the little guy and buying Beltway influence with the proceeds. And they are going to try to hold onto that advantage at all cost, as Chris Hayes' report reveals.

Those predatory weasels are the targets of Occupy Wall Street. It is going to get ugly.

In the meantime, the Super Committee cannot reach an accord on our behalf. Are they not watching what is going on outside their conference room windows?

manthou — November 19, 2011 at 9:01 p.m. ( | suggest removal


hawkeye @ 6:27... The fact Cain stays up in Republican polls speaks volumes about the ideological upheaval the Republican party is in. This could be the end of the Republican party as we know it. Incredible story that manthou brought forth @ 8:43. It also speaks to how many that vote Republican cling to messages from right wing pundits. Always laying claim to being victimized by the mainstream media. LOL! Never fails!

It only makes sense.

Republicans leaders have no leader.

Republicans leaders have no center.

Republican leaders are void of new ideas.

Republican leaders are unwilling to compromise profit for the better of society.

Republican leaders enact laws and legislation that give priority to the 1% rather than the 99%.

Republican activist leaders are restricting voter rights.

Republican leaders are enacting laws to prohibit collective bargaining.

Republican leaders are trying to criminalize abortion.

Republican leaders idea of fixing the economy is to take us back to Bush policies.

Onandonandon. Can't wait till next November.

nailingit — November 19, 2011 at 9:20 p.m. ( | suggest removal


luvithere — November 19, 2011 at 8:50 p.m.

"Paul will not get my vote period."

So you will be voting for more war?

Or are you going to try and say Obama is anti war?

frobert — November 19, 2011 at 9:27 p.m. ( | suggest removal


manthou- I think it was designed to fail. To kick the can till next election. Most likely they will come up with a trillion or so savings over ten years that can be manipulated into anything. As someone that votes democrat, I do find it troubling not knowing where our President stands on some OWS issues and a few other matters. Keep in mind, the only reason we are leaving Iraq is because the Iraqi government would not grant immunity to crimes involving US soldiers.

The Republicans don't seem to be taking next years election seriously. Chris Matthews posed the question a few weeks back, "Would the republicans rather endure 4 more years of obstructing Obama as president, rather than put someone (Romney) in office they believe won't properly represent them, and spend the next four years to groom someone." (Paraphrased! :)) Given the debates and the circus they have become, it makes me wonder if republicans are ready to lie down with the lion, and make Mitt their sacrificial lamb.

They are so lost and void of coherent message.

The story that Chris Hayes brought out needs to be shouted day after day. I'm sure there is more to follow!

nailingit — November 19, 2011 at 9:38 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Right wing leaders are holding a false court while trying to "Plan B" the voters! AAHHH!

Chicanery! Propagated by crooked politicians, carnival barkers, lobbyists and gullible voters.

nailingit — November 19, 2011 at 9:44 p.m. ( | suggest removal


fro- By the way, you've made too much sense lately. What's up? :)) Since you define yourself as a conservative, it must drive you wacky to see other conservatives promote the type of needless militaristic tactics on American citizenry as we have seen of late. Some that post here actually encourage violent acts by the police to brutalize people, to include our war vets, for doing nothing else but expressing themselves in a non-violent manner, protesting in a non-violent way. Anti-American views for sure, but that's what makes us free, right? :))

And I bet most (if not all) of these local "conservatives" that promote the beating of Americans for expressing themselves, say they love Jesus and follow his ways the best they can.

The Republicans and Democrats aren't going to be the only ones exposed this coming year for their extreme hypocrisy, those Americans that lay claim to Christianity, and use it as a basis to form political opinion should be scrutinized. I think enough people are tired of seeing Jesus drug through the mud, Allah, Abraham or whoever drug through the muck and mire of the rest of this world, in order for politicians to lay claim to their so-called "spiritual world" and the directives of spiritual leaders that they never attempt to follow.

nailingit — November 19, 2011 at 10:10 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Instead of "swift-boating" a Democratic candidate, they are trying to "swift-boat" the American people! This is amazing stuff!

nailingit — November 19, 2011 at 10:15 p.m. ( | suggest removal


fro....

if you can't see that preventing others from taking care of themselves is NOT a right, then there's no point in continuing the discussion.

have a good sunday.

DeeLittle — November 20, 2011 at 1:29 a.m. ( | suggest removal


A little bit on the rw talking points about #OWS and why they get / got swallowed hook, line, and sinker....

**Madoff Explains Everything**
Paul Krugman

The Madoff affair, as you may know, was a classic case of “affinity fraud”; Madoff was able to gain the trust of wealthy Jews by persuading them that he was their kind of guy. Affinity fraud lies behind a lot of financial scams — and it lies behind a lot of political scams too.

Right now, the campaign against OWS basically tries to get working Americans to turn on the movement, even though most people support the movement’s goals, by trying to make it seem as if the protestors are people not like you — whereas the plutocrats are. Hey, this has worked many times in the past; that’s the whole point of “What’s the matter with Kansas.” And it can operate in many directions: OWS should be shunned because they’re dirty hippies, Elizabeth Warren is not-like-you because, horrors, she’s a Harvard professor.

http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/11/17/madoff-explains-everything/

mr_basil_seal — November 20, 2011 at 7:12 a.m. ( | suggest removal


**Lobbying Firm's Memo Spells Out Plan to Undermine Occupy Wall Street (VIDEO)**
Sat Nov 19, 2011 8:53 AM EST
by Jonathan Larsen and Ken Olshansky
(crossposted from MSNBC's "Open Channel" blog)

A well-known Washington lobbying firm with links to the financial industry has proposed an $850,000 plan to take on Occupy Wall Street and politicians who might express sympathy for the protests, according to a memo obtained by the MSNBC program “Up w/ Chris Hayes.”

The proposal was written on the letterhead of the lobbying firm Clark Lytle Geduldig & Cranford and addressed to one of CLGC’s clients, the American Bankers Association.

CLGC’s memo proposes that the ABA pay CLGC $850,000 to conduct “opposition research” on Occupy Wall Street in order to construct “negative narratives” about the protests and allied politicians. The memo also asserts that Democratic victories in 2012 would be detrimental for Wall Street and targets specific races in which it says Wall Street would benefit by electing Republicans instead.

According to the memo, if Democrats embrace OWS, “This would mean more than just short-term political discomfort for Wall Street. … It has the potential to have very long-lasting political, policy and financial impacts on the companies in the center of the bullseye.”

http://upwithchrishayes.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2011/11/19/8896362-exclusive-lobbying-firms-memo-spells-out-plan-to-undermine-occupy-wall-street-video

mr_basil_seal — November 20, 2011 at 7:16 a.m. ( | suggest removal


Explainer: How Did Inequality in America Get So Bad? And What Can the Government Do to Fix It?
Mike Konczal

In one of the more odd recent pairings, both the wonks at the Congressional Budget Office and the activists occupying Wall Street and beyond have come to the same conclusion: inequality is skyrocketing and one percent of the country is taking home a bigger and bigger share of all the income in the country. The CBO just released a study, years in the making, which confirms that the income for the top one percent has nearly tripled from 1979 to 2007. And not only are those in the top one percent much richer, they also take home a larger share of the economy as a whole than they did thirty years ago. What caused this? And what, if anything, can the government do about it? Below, Mike Konczal explains.

http://www.thenation.com/article/164681/explainer-how-did-inequality-america-get-so-bad-and-what-can-government-do-fix-it

mr_basil_seal — November 20, 2011 at 7:25 a.m. ( | suggest removal


And the rw disconnect....

http://youtu.be/Zmuw9js9ezE

mr_basil_seal — November 20, 2011 at 7:28 a.m. ( | suggest removal


**"Near Poor" Struggling Just Above Poverty Startle the Census
Friday 18 November 2011**

by: Jason DeParle, Robert Gebeloff and Sabrina Tavernise, The New York Times News Service | Report

Washington - They drive cars, but seldom new ones. They earn paychecks, but not big ones. Many own homes. Most pay taxes. Half are married, and nearly half live in the suburbs. None are poor, but many describe themselves as barely scraping by.

Down but not quite out, these Americans form a diverse group sometimes called “near poor” and sometimes simply overlooked — and a new count suggests they are far more numerous than previously understood.

When the Census Bureau this month released a new measure of poverty, meant to better count disposable income, it began altering the portrait of national need. Perhaps the most startling differences between the old measure and the new involves data the government has not yet published, showing 51 million people with incomes less than 50 percent above the poverty line. That number of Americans is 76 percent higher than the official account, published in September. All told, that places 100 million people — one in three Americans — either in poverty or in the fretful zone just above it.

After a lost decade of flat wages and the worst downturn since the Great Depression, the findings can be thought of as putting numbers to the bleak national mood — quantifying the expressions of unease erupting in protests and political swings. They convey levels of economic stress sharply felt but until now hard to measure.

The Census Bureau, which published the poverty data two weeks ago, produced the analysis of those with somewhat higher income at the request of The New York Times. The size of the near-poor population took even the bureau’s number crunchers by surprise.

“These numbers are higher than we anticipated,” said Trudi J. Renwick, the bureau’s chief poverty statistician. “There are more people struggling than the official numbers show.”

http://www.truth-out.org/near-poor-struggling-just-above-poverty-startle-census/1321722493

mr_basil_seal — November 20, 2011 at 7:32 a.m. ( | suggest removal


basil: You have posted some very informative information above. Chris Hayes' report blew me away yesterday. We are going to see more of it in days to come. I was also particularly interested in Paul Krugman's opinion you shared at 7:12 am.

I spent a great deal of time yesterday viewing live streaming video of the OWS General Assembly meeting in Liberty Park. These protesters are our children, our brothers, our sisters, our neighbors. They seem smart, passionate, and dedicated to getting the message out. There was a lengthy discussion of the pros and cons of sending OWS reps to Egypt to offer support for the elections. The opinions were shared in rational manner and there was respect given to all who wanted to speak. Since there are no microphones, the crowd repeats what the speaker is saying so that others may hear. Fascinating process.

I am traveling to lower Manhattan in the first week of December and intend to go visit to see for myself.

It is easier to demonize and marginalize the participants in the Occupy movement, but, if you take a look, these folks are not much different than you and I and they could very well change the course of our nation's future in a positive way.

Check it out: http://www.livestream.com/occupynyc

manthou — November 20, 2011 at 7:56 a.m. ( | suggest removal


I WILL MY CHILD I WILL. BLESS THOSE THAT FIGHT AGAINST THE INJUSTICES OF HUMANKIND I WILL BLESS THOSE THAT LACK UNDERSTANDING AND COMPASSION FOR THEY ARE MY SUBJECTS ALSO. MY BLESSINGS MANIFEST IN MANY WAYS BE PREPARED MY PEOPLE, BE PREPARED.

godsvoice — November 20, 2011 at 8:50 a.m. ( | suggest removal


*typical lw tactic.. ...disagree with them*

?????????????????????????

mr_basil_seal — November 20, 2011 at 9:30 a.m. ( | suggest removal


Press Talk: the comments have been removed. Either that, or they are not loading for me. All the other stories' FB comments load fine.

I notice that Press Talk has been moved to the carousel and is the first story that pops up. Fishing for more positive comments? Taking advantage of the OWS saliency and trying to generate a little more controversy and internet fighting? As if we don't have enough.....

I mentioned the power of citizen journalism yesterday and continue to be impressed with the coverage I have seen on the internet. There is a wealth of good reporting out there: videos, interviews, blogs, live streaming. It rivals and exceeds what is available from the mainstream media.

manthou — November 20, 2011 at 9:31 a.m. ( | suggest removal


basil: sometimes it is best to ignore and change the subject. I was trying to do that......

manthou — November 20, 2011 at 9:32 a.m. ( | suggest removal


Matt W: Question for you:

You guys are very vigilant on the FB side in requiring identification for posting.

Do you ever check whether there are multiple personas eminating from the same computer source on these anonymous forums? I am sure you see the IP addresses. Ever raise any red flags for you?

Just wondering.

manthou — November 20, 2011 at 9:41 a.m. ( | suggest removal


manthou, the repost has a link in the story now. Lou is still fishing for a story, a day late and a dollar short!! Love how he waits until no one is there to do the story??

After this am and my 3 hour go around with FB as to someone with a mobile device trying to take over my account from the Couv area, it makes on wonder about the use of FB and the C ties??

karma — November 20, 2011 at 9:45 a.m. ( | suggest removal


karma: Sorry you are having hacking problems with your FB account. I had an account for about one month two years ago and then spent weeks trying to get it deleted. Too much information for the picking. We are becoming a nation of narcissists, I fear. We assume everyone wants to know everything about us. They hang on our tweets, hungering for more. Crooks will play on that. There are companies who make a living on managing and syncing people's social media sites and helping them keep their public information as safe as possible. Yikes.

As for the C and FB ties. FB advertises itself to businesses as a free way to broaden the audience. I noticed that the C added the FB connection right after there was a FB training for small business at the Hilton. They still have only a litte over 2,000 "likes" on their FB page.

I am just grateful that they keep these anonymous forums going for those of us who don't "like" anything about FB. :)

manthou — November 20, 2011 at 10:16 a.m. ( | suggest removal


nailingit — November 19, 2011 at 10:10 p.m.

As I have stated before I do not consider neocons or the "religious right" to be conservative. If they advocate expansion of government past it's constitutional constraints, they are liberal. My use of the term "liberal" is strictly based on their belief that the constitution is fluid, I am not implying that their motivation or goals are in any way aligned with classic liberals.

frobert — November 20, 2011 at 10:52 a.m. ( | suggest removal


Thanks manthou, I hear ya on FB! I'm not a 'like'-able person and
not your normal FB user.

karma — November 20, 2011 at 2:14 p.m. ( | suggest removal


The police pepper-sprayed students protesting-totally nonviolent-at UC Davis yesterday. As students covered their faces with clothing, some officers removed it and sprayed directly down their throats. Non-resisting protesters were not treated very kindly as they were cuffe and hauled off.

Perhaps had they been in China, Iran, Syria, Libya, etc, the US government, from the White House to Congress, would have been extolling the virtues of protest as a necessary function of democracy. Heck, they might have sent a carrier over. At home however, mums the word.

mrd — November 20, 2011 at 3:08 p.m. ( | suggest removal


*"..advocate expansion of government past it's constitutional constraints,..."*
frobert — November 20, 2011 at 10:52 a.m.

You could clarify a rather muddled response there with a list of what you consider the specific instances where legislation has been passed that goes, in your opinion, "past it's [sic] constitutional constraints".

*" My use of the term "liberal" "*

And maybe next time you decide to use your own definition for a well established word, you could append that definition.

mr_basil_seal — November 20, 2011 at 3:48 p.m. ( | suggest removal


mr_basil_seal — November 20, 2011 at 3:48 p.m.

Do you have a point, or have you just taken it upon yourself to question everything I post?

frobert — November 20, 2011 at 4:52 p.m. ( | suggest removal


alleycat is back?

nailingit — November 20, 2011 at 4:59 p.m. ( | suggest removal


TORONTO - Stephen Hawking says the colonization of outer space is key to the survival of humankind, predicting it will be difficult for the world's inhabitants "to avoid disaster in the next hundred years."

http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2011/11/18/stephen-hawking-space-exploration_n_1101975.html?ref=mostpopular

nailingit — November 20, 2011 at 5:02 p.m. ( | suggest removal


**BREAKING NEWS: Thanksgiving terror plot to attack police and returning U.S. soldiers in New York City is foiled**

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2064063/BREAKING-NEWS-Terror-plot-attack-NYPD-returning-U-S-soldiers-foiled.html#ixzz1eIVlAKi1

nailingit — November 20, 2011 at 5:06 p.m. ( | suggest removal


nailingit — November 20, 2011 at 4:59 p.m.

My thoughts exactly.

frobert — November 20, 2011 at 5:10 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Hi Salmonella,
welcome back. Read the comment above and figured it was, ahem...
you did not answer my question from yesterday. Why does the situation remind you of Germany in the 30s?
PS: I agree with the infiltration. Seems obvious at this point, what with the very biased negative media reports.

luvithere — November 20, 2011 at 5:20 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Response from Senator Murray‏

11/14/2011
Reply ▼
Senator@mu​rray.senate​.gov

Dear Mr. nailhead (I deleted my real name as nailingit for privacy sake...oops!) :

Thank you for contacting me regarding the recently created Joint Select Committee on Deficit Reduction, of which I am a co-chair. I appreciate hearing from you about your priorities for this process.

As you may know, on August 2, 2011, President Obama signed the Budget Control Act of 2011 into law after its bipartisan passage through Congress. Following an initial down payment of almost $1 trillion in deficit reduction through cuts to discretionary spending, this legislation created a Joint Select Committee tasked with identifying further deficit reduction of approximately $1.5 trillion. In the event the Committee is unable to produce a plan to meet that amount, immediate across-the-board cuts will be enacted that will come from both defense and non-defense spending. In accordance with the legislation, Committee members were to be appointed by Majority and Minority Leaders in each chamber of Congress.

On August 10, 2011, I was asked by Senate Majority Leader Reid to co-chair the Joint Select Committee on Deficit Reduction. I agreed to accept this role because I take the goals of this Committee seriously and because I believe that it is time for members of both parties to work together to improve our nation's financial future. Currently, I am working with my House and Senate colleagues from both sides of the aisle to address our national debt and deficit in a balanced and bipartisan manner. I know we need to make the tough choices that put our country on a more sustainable fiscal track but I also know that we must protect the middle class, seniors, and the most vulnerable who are struggling mightily in today's economy. I do not want to pass an unsustainable debt along to my own grandchildren and will be working tirelessly toward a bipartisan plan that reduces our deficit without neglecting the need for investment in areas that help to spur economic growth, create jobs, and promote our country's long-term competitiveness.

I appreciate hearing from you about your priorities for the Joint Select Committee and I will certainly keep the suggestions of Washingtonians in mind as I work with my colleagues to address our fiscal situation. Please continue to pass on your thoughts, as they will help me and my fellow Committee members as we take on this challenge. You can also visit http://deficitreduction.gov for further information about the work of the Joint Select Committee, and if you would like to know more about my work in the Senate, please sign up for my weekly updates at http://murray.senate.gov/updates.

Sincerely,
Patty Murray
United States Senator

nailingit — November 20, 2011 at 5:24 p.m. ( | suggest removal


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/11/20/super-committee-jon-kyl_n_1103821.html

I wrote Patty Murray less than two weeks ago, and received a response a few days ago. I told her I would quit the party if the Bush tax cuts continue, and posted in here also.

Patty's listening! I'm sure many many voices are encouraging her to stand steadfast. Go Patty!

nailingit — November 20, 2011 at 5:36 p.m. ( | suggest removal


What up cat? How is life treating you? Full of tuna and catnip? :))

nailingit — November 20, 2011 at 5:38 p.m. ( | suggest removal


nailingit: Thanks for sharing your letter from Patty Murray. I am saddened, in spite of her efforts, to learn that the Super Committee is heading for failure (as you predicted).

Alleycat, er Salmonella: Welcome back! Thanks for the surly advice, however I am hardly clueless. The FB comments were not attached to Press Talk for quite some time this morning. Then they were. It must have been when it was re-posted to the carousel.

When I want advice on navigating the web, I will ask you for your personal map. :)

Play nice, now, or Salmonella will join Columbiancensures and Alleycat at the end of the long list of banned pseudonyms. :)

manthou — November 20, 2011 at 5:48 p.m. ( | suggest removal


manthou @ 7:56! Exciting! Can I come? Take me as an advisor @ 200.00 a day+expenses, (to include New York Style Pizza and a backstage pass to Letterman and the Rockettes.) A tax write off and adding jobs at the same time! A win win!

Seriously, very cool and looking forward to hearing about it!

nailingit — November 20, 2011 at 6:15 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Well Sal, I agree with all your steps. I also see the analogy now-thanks. Good point. I do hope, however, that the predictions of a blood bath and dictatorship as well as martial law will be wrong.. Sadly, though, they might not be. Just don't understand how so many people can still vote against their own interest and swallow the stuff so whole heatedly. Makes me wonder if we need to adjust the typical IQ test somewhat. Maybe the mean has slid down to 80.

luvithere — November 20, 2011 at 6:17 p.m. ( | suggest removal


that meant whole heartedly obviously.

luvithere — November 20, 2011 at 6:19 p.m. ( | suggest removal


salmonella, and seriously, great to see you! I want to pick your brain a little later if you don't mind.

nailingit — November 20, 2011 at 6:22 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Sal at 6:17 PM: I like the ring of this nickname. Kinda godfatherly. :)

I have been singing the praises of citizen journalism, what you refer to as "Indy Journalism", for the past couple of days. The mainstream media can threaten to pull the plug on coverage, but there is so much information out there via the web, social media, blogs. It is bringing us all together and making the world much smaller and accessible.

luvithere: I always wonder about why the nation's most vulnerable seem to support the party ticket that would as soon use them as doormats as look at them. Intelligence might not have as much to do with it as living a sheltered life, unexposed to cultural and educational diversity. Heck if I know.

nailingit at 6:15: I will provide a full report! My friend just called and told me that Joan Baez showed up when he was with the crowd at Lafayette square and all the young kids did not know who she was! Funny!

manthou — November 20, 2011 at 6:59 p.m. ( | suggest removal


manthou-My intro to Joan Baez was from the 'album' Woodstock. Amazing performance from an amazing person. I did not attend Woodstock unfortunately. :((((((( But I was pretty young and might not have made it back. :)) Permit me to print the lyrics to Joe Hill in addition to the video.. A song that speaks to us today.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/05/30/joan-baez-at-woodstock-he_n_209287.html

I dreamed I saw Joe Hill last night,
alive as you and me.
Says I "But Joe, you're ten years dead"
"I never died" said he,
"I never died" said he.

"The Copper Bosses killed you Joe,
they shot you Joe" they filled you full of lead.
"Takes more than guns to kill a man"
Says Joe "I didn't die"
Says Joe "I didn't die"

"In Salt Lake City, Joe," says I,
Him standing by my bed,
"They framed you on a murder charge,"
Says Joe, "But I ain't dead,"
Says Joe, "But I ain't dead."

And standing there as big as life
and smiling with his eyes.
Says Joe "What they can never kill
went on to organize,
went on to organize"

From San Diego up to Maine,
in every mine and mill,
Where working men defend their rights,
it's there you'll find Joe Hill,
it's there you'll find Joe Hill!

I dreamed I saw Joe Hill last night,
alive as you and me.
Says I "But Joe, you're ten years dead"
"I never died" said he,
"I never died" said he.

nailingit — November 20, 2011 at 7:43 p.m. ( | suggest removal


Eh what happened? sal's comments are gone...

luvithere — November 20, 2011 at 10:10 p.m. ( | suggest removal


I was just thinking the same thing, you guys talking to a ghost?

hawkeye — November 20, 2011 at 10:41 p.m. ( | suggest removal


sal is gone? Doesn't seem right. Won't bother to ask Matt on this one. If you are not on the forum when he chooses to speak, you won't get your questions answered. Questions always left lingering.

Such is the 'freedom' of the press, to take 'liberty' with banning one's opinion.

I read a couple of articles and noticed Allen is posting as Allen Hoff. Lynn Carmen sure sounds like a regular poster here, or numerous rolled into numeral-uno. ;)

nailingit — November 20, 2011 at 10:46 p.m. ( | suggest removal


"Republican presidential candidate Ron Paul said Sunday that American foreign policy was a major influence behind the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks on New York and Washington."

http://www.politico.com/blogs/politicolive/1111/Ron_Paul_US_foreign_policy_contributed_to_911.html#

Not too many politicians are willing to say this. Even though they know it's true. I don't wish Paul to be Prez, but I'm glad he's in the debate. He's the 'Dennis Kucinich' of the Republican party! Speaking of, I wonder if Dennis is still considering a move here. I hope so!

nailingit — November 21, 2011 at 12:05 a.m. ( | suggest removal



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