Open forum, Nov 25-Dec 1



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Don't forget to move the turkey to the fridge to start thawing it out.

roger — November 25, 2013 at 6:22 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Arming local police departments with the weapons of war:

The ACLU is seeing a trend. Do our local police officers really need tanks? Conspiracy theorists are going to have a heyday, but, this investigation is worth a read:

manthou — November 25, 2013 at 6:25 a.m. ( | suggest removal

manthou — November 25, 2013 at 6:25 a.m.

Sensationalism at it's best. There you have ten stories, I didn't read them but the headlines suggest these are really bad things. I'll bet if you took the time to research each of them you'd find that maybe two of them were really over the top and the other eight were way out of proportion. No, our cops don't need tanks but it was probably cheaper than some other armored vehicle and readily available. There are three sides (or more) to every story.

hawkeye — November 25, 2013 at 6:43 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Here's a heads up for EVERYONE out on the roads, especially for the holiday travels!

Yesterday while out and about, we were at an intersection in Orchards...waiting for the light to turn green. There were three cars (sport coups) waiting in the left turn lane from the opposite direction. The light turned green for through traffic and we began to proceed through as did the others next to us and behind us. The three in the left turn lane in the opposite direction were playing a very dangerous game of "Chicken." I didn't think much of the first car, but when the second one did the same thing as did the third...I recognized the game they were playing. At least the third vehicle had the common sense to back off at the last second...especially since the second vehicle was missed by inches...YES the van next to us.

To any teenager or young adult who thinks this game is a rush...tell that to the families of the drivers you cause accidents and injury (possibly death) with your irresponsibility and ridiculously STUPID behavior!!! One of these days, someone might decide to retaliate.

And to the idiots who think the knockout punch game is "fun...." you're a bunch of sicko's for sure!

goldenoldie — November 25, 2013 at 6:44 a.m. ( | suggest removal

manthou — November 25, 2013 at 6:25 a.m.

Maybe the ACLU needs to focus on the trend that is causing police to increase their "needs" (which I believe would reduce the acquisitions for increase in "firepower") and work for a better solution with AND for our nation rather than focus on something they find appalling. It's hardly a conspiracy theory, manthou. Shat is happening all over the nation and it's intensifying.

hawkeye...I believe the stories happened as they say. The police are humans and they make gross errors in judgment just as anybody might do. Our own president prior to BHO had made an error in judgment with regards to WMD's...and look at the end result.

goldenoldie — November 25, 2013 at 6:49 a.m. ( | suggest removal

goldie @ 6:44 am: Given what we now know about the undeveloped frontal lobe of the adolescent brain, I am surprised that we still hand a set of car keys over to 16 year olds without great restrictions. Social policy and laws have not caught up with the neuroscience.

I am re-considering what type of vehicle my next car will be. Do I choose personal protection over environmental concerns and gas mileage? Right now, I am looking at anything mildly similar to a Hummer. My little Jetta would not do so well if hit head-on and I drive 2 lane winding roads like US 26 to the Oregon coast often. This is a huge philosophical shift for me and maybe I will re-think this as memories of a recent head-on crash in the news subside where a teen slammed into a tank of an SUV after allegedly playing a game of chicken. Witnesses describe the teen passing a friend's car on the right shoulder and losing control as it careened into the other lane. The investigation continues, so we will learn more. No one died, thankfully, but lives are not the same after an experience like that.

By the way, did you all know that most new cars are now equipped with "event data recorders?" Just like airplanes, we are likely to have little black boxes that record lots of information just before and after a crash.

manthou — November 25, 2013 at 7:29 a.m. ( | suggest removal

The basement is well served for you to bring this to our attention. This is an ongoing problem. Imagine if this local war money was being channeled into our communities to improve schools, health care, veteran services and such.

How do we stop it?

///Drones, Tanks, and Grenade Launchers: Coming Soon to a Police Department Near You///

Almost 13,000 agencies in all 50 states and four U.S. territories participate in the military "recycling" program, and the share of equipment and weaponry gifted each year continues to expand. In 2011, $500 million worth of military equipment was distributed to law enforcement agencies throughout the country. That number jumped to $546 million in 2012. Since 1990, $4.2 billion worth of equipment has been transferred from the Defense Department to domestic police agencies through the 1033 program, in addition to various other programs supposedly aimed at fighting the so-called War on Drugs and War on Terror. For example, the Department of Homeland Security has delivered roughly $34 billion to police departments throughout the country since 9/11, ostensibly to purchase more gear for their steady growing arsenals of military weapons and equipment.

It doesn't look like this trend towards the militarization of domestic police forces will be slowing down anytime soon, either. In fact, it seems to have opened up a new market for military contractors. According to a December 2011 report, "the homeland security market for state and local agencies is projected to reach $19.2 billion by 2014, up from an estimated $15.8 billion in fiscal 2009."

Read more @

nailingit — November 25, 2013 at 7:38 a.m. ( | suggest removal

I don't know if games of auto chicken are on the rise, but I doubt it. Get plate numbers and notify local LE if the circumstances warrant it. Maybe they'll blow up the crappy drivers with some tank ordinance.

nailingit — November 25, 2013 at 7:47 a.m. ( | suggest removal

nailingit @ 7:47 am: Good points. We, I include me in that we, often take anecdotal evidence as proof of trends. Happens on here all the time. :)

What I do know about the adolescent brain, however, makes me realize that our young people need more monitoring and support than we previously believed. Now, if we only could get them to accept such increased oversight with enthusiasm……..

As for the militarism of our local Barney Fifes: I look forward to what the ACLU's FOIA requests reveal and will keep an open mind to the possibility that they are on to something. In Washington state, it has ordered such public information from 7 jurisdictions.

manthou — November 25, 2013 at 8:01 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Goldenoldie, manthou..

It isn't just teens that drive like what you two have mentioned. Last week as my son and I were on the on ramp (off Mill Plain to 205 north) we had a car driven BY an adult pass us ON the ramp on the right side. We watched as the very same car weaved in and out of both lanes and at times going onto the shoulder of the freeway on the right to go around other cars.

We've seen cars making U-turns in the middle of Chkalov, and in the middle of the intersection of Chkalov and Mill Plain in front of on coming traffic.

Then there are those Mario Andretti's of the 205 bridge. They seem to think there is no speed limit and the road belongs to them.

ELISI — November 25, 2013 at 8:04 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Thanks for the links, Elisi. Will check them out today. Don't know what we can accurately infer from this apparent trend: could be as simple as a business opportunity for certain manufacturers. No one is immune from being sold a product they might not really need. :)

manthou — November 25, 2013 at 9:43 a.m. ( | suggest removal

nailingit, ELSIE, and everyone,

Not exactly on subject of armored local law enforcement, but yesterday's NYT had a indept investigative article about police in FL, and the penchant to protect one of their own from prosecution. Google quickly shows this is not a 'southern thing'. Gave me a little mental itch. Some of the power structure disclosures are decidedly paralleled closer to home if looking closer. Now these links about military style weapons and equipment here.

jacjak — November 25, 2013 at 10:39 a.m. ( | suggest removal

jacjak — November 25, 2013 at 10:39 a.m.

I can think of nothing more tragic and frustrating for the family of the slain girl than what happened in this article. I grew up in a town rife with police corruption. Never once (to my knowledge) have the LVMPD been deemed 'unjustified' for an on duty unlawful shooting. The years I lived in Vegas, cops ran roughshod over the public trust and gunned down whoever they wanted to without fear of retribution or prosecution.

The mention at the end of your article about police invading a party reminded me of this situation.

This has always burned me. We (Vegas) used to have cops (still do?) who would meet at local bars and discuss/plan the drive by executions they'd commit. Various locations of PT Pub was always a popular hangout for these criminals with badges.

Anyway, this time they got sloppy and two were caught. The driver in this instance was the son of a long time LVMPD detective and got off scott free. (last I heard the victims family had an ongoing civil suit against him) The shooter (questionable that it wasn't the driver) was convicted and sent to prison.

Not a big fan of police on this end. I know they're necessary, and law abiding people would have a hard time flourishing without them. On the other hand, too many times the difference between a cop and a bad guy is hard to distinguish.

I'm sure many have friends and relatives that'll attest to the holiness of those who "protect & Serve", and I'm sure there are many po po's in the game for the right reason. I'm also sure there are many who aren't, and those who protect the bad ones with a "code of silence" are almost as bad.

Anyway, check out two of Las Vegas's finest-

nailingit — November 25, 2013 at 12:08 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Turkey Day is saved!

Elisi, went to the Barn for the first time. I got two huge stalks of Brussels sprouts, among other items. Really nice place.

luvithere — November 25, 2013 at 1:46 p.m. ( | suggest removal

manthou — November 25, 2013 at 7:29 a.m.

I've been asking myself why the Department of Licensing allows anybody under the age of 21 to drive. I have a feeling it will eventually come down to a complete background check (including school history) of the individual before they are allowed a license.

ELISI — November 25, 2013 at 8:04 a.m.

Another I-205 Bridge favorite of the younger group...crotch rocket racing and popping wheelies...saw that yesterday, too.

goldenoldie — November 25, 2013 at 2:49 p.m. ( | suggest removal

ELISI — November 25, 2013 at 8:31 a.m.

I'd rather it stay in the US than go to some country who would love to nail us in the back. My preference...decommissioned altogether.

goldenoldie — November 25, 2013 at 2:50 p.m. ( | suggest removal

nailingit — November 25, 2013 at 7:47 a.m.

I would've contacted the law enforcement IF I'd been able to get the plates and descriptions of the cars. It happened so fast and we were in the left lane of traffic which made it difficult for further descriptions. All I know is it was three compact being what looked like an older souped-up maroon Honda hatchback and a tan Toyota sedan. The I said, it happened so fast and they were gone like *that*.

One question for everyone....

Why is it, the news reporters tell everyone about the I-5 increased planned patrols from Northern Washington to Southern California; remind everyone NOT to use their cell phones, then state for EVERYONE to call 911, should they see erratic drivers???

Does anybody see anything wrong with that type of reporting???

goldenoldie — November 25, 2013 at 2:55 p.m. ( | suggest removal

goldenoldie — November 25, 2013 at 2:55 p.m.

Pull over to make the call if driving alone. A good discription of a road obstruction or make and model of eratic driving can help even without a plate number, tho a mile marker location or street w/ cross street may help too.

jacjak — November 25, 2013 at 3:54 p.m. ( | suggest removal

RIP Brian Griffin

roger — November 25, 2013 at 5:02 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Roger...what a lousy way to kill off a cartoon character. Seth McFarland's boo boo of the century in my opinion. No humor in a dog being hit by a car...even in cartoons.

goldenoldie — November 25, 2013 at 5:32 p.m. ( | suggest removal

jacjak, in my case...there was no way to see where they headed. They were long gone before anybody could get a fix on where they were going...hence my reasoning for sharing my get the word out. Sometimes, community awareness trumps calling 911 for reckless driving. IF there's more out there who's experiencing what I experienced...then I can see something being done about it.'s just on record for that day.

Regarding the reporter...I believe if she had stated to pull over and call 911, it wouldn't have sounded so ridiculous.

goldenoldie — November 25, 2013 at 5:36 p.m. ( | suggest removal

An article in the American Bar Association Journal on the militarization of our police forces. It discusses the Third Amendment (which prohibits forced quartering of the military in private homes) as a fear on the part of the Founders of the citizenry controlled by an occupying army, and then moves through history to note a gradual shift to allowing military force against the people in certain circumstance. Nixon's war on drugs is seen as the start of a shift to condoning paramilitary force being used to raid homes, etc. 9/11 is another turning point; in the name of fighting a war on terror, police departments across the control have become heavily armed. A critical message to take from this analysis is that we have permitted, and at times encouraged, this transformation of law enforcement in our country.

roger — November 25, 2013 at 6:15 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Is this a start to the push back against the pot operation moratoriums being imposed by some communities? Local governments are to make zoning determinations on where a pot operation can legally operate. They're not authorized to question the State law itself.

roger — November 25, 2013 at 6:22 p.m. ( | suggest removal

SeaTac's $15 minimum wage initiative is pending certification by King County; the lead of about 75 votes is considered insurmountable for the few left to be accounted for. The main group opposing it doesn't appear to be overly interested in footing the cost of a recount.

Are we going to see a court decision on the legality of the initiative?
Seattle's new Mayor and their Socialist city councilor both advocate the $15 minimum - will they push to bring this to that city?
If the law gets enacted, how many similar initiatives make it to the 2014 ballot?

I said before the elections that I thought this had the potential for being the most important thing on the ballot in this state. (I see Jim Moeller made a tentative sounding statement in support of it - I wonder if Identity Clark County and the Chamber of Commerce have gotten in touch with him yet to discuss this position?)

roger — November 25, 2013 at 7:01 p.m. ( | suggest removal

goldenoldie — November 25, 2013 at 2:49 p.m.

Oh Goldie, you should hear the bikes going up my road in the summer. So fast by the time they hit the top of the hill, I'd guess 80 to 100 mph. or more.

There is an answer if you are interested. It's been huge in Russia lately due to people getting in accidents and arguing about who is at fault. They now have dash cams for anybody that wants one. Not too expensive and easily installed. Just Google "Dash-cam" and you'll find hundreds.

hawkeye — November 25, 2013 at 7:24 p.m. ( | suggest removal

-How They Do It-

///N.S.A. May Have Penetrated Internet Cable Links///

People knowledgeable about Google and Yahoo’s infrastructure say they believe that government spies bypassed the big Internet companies and hit them at a weak spot — the fiber-optic cables that connect data centers around the world that are owned by companies like Verizon Communications, the BT Group, the Vodafone Group and Level 3 Communications. In particular, fingers have been pointed at Level 3, the world’s largest so-called Internet backbone provider, whose cables are used by Google and Yahoo.

The Internet companies’ data centers are locked down with full-time security and state-of-the-art surveillance, including heat sensors and iris scanners. But between the data centers — on Level 3’s fiber-optic cables that connected those massive computer farms — information was unencrypted and an easier target for government intercept efforts, according to three people with knowledge of Google’s and Yahoo’s systems who spoke on the condition of anonymity.

Read more @

nailingit — November 25, 2013 at 9:34 p.m. ( | suggest removal

///To reach Iran deal, secret diplomacy that worked///

~By David Ignatius~

Count the Iran nuclear deal as a rare win for President Obama’s secretive, cerebral style of governing. His careful, closeted approach has produced many setbacks over the past five years, but it was at the heart of last weekend’s breakthrough deal with Tehran.

This was secret diplomacy that a Henry Kissinger could appreciate. Obama began by authorizing carefully concealed meetings back in March, through Oman, the most opaque and discreet nation in the Persian Gulf. The president sent as his personal emissaries two low-key, quintessentially gray men, Bill Burns and Jake Sullivan, the deputy secretary of state and vice presidential adviser, respectively.

It was a classic magic trick: While the eye was distracted by the show of the P5+1 talks, the real work was done elsewhere — and presented to the foreign ministers of Russia, China, Britain, France and Germany in Geneva two weeks ago almost as a fait accompli.

No wonder Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and French Foreign Minister Laurent Fabius were miffed. This deal was done (as any serious piece of diplomacy must be) out of sight. They were asked to endorse it after the fact, and it’s no surprise that they balked — Netanyahu unwisely locking himself into an inflexible rejectionist position and Fabius dickering publicly for more concessions.

Commentaries along the way celebrated Fabius’s show of independence, just as earlier reports had lauded Russian diplomacy on Syria. But this credit was largely illusory. Iran and Syria illustrate the immense leverage the United States still has when it uses its diplomatic tools wisely and stealthily.

The definition of a good agreement is one that each side can sell to its public, and that’s the case here. The agreement seems broadly positive for the United States and Israel, at the outer edge of what was possible in terms of freezing the Iranian nuclear program and providing daily inspections to check against any trickery. The world is safer from the Iranian nuclear threat today than it was a week ago.

Read more @

nailingit — November 25, 2013 at 10:44 p.m. ( | suggest removal

anybody wondering if we've just repeated chamberlain's fatal error?

on a happier note (yes it IS hard for me, so THERE!!!!!)....

i'm thankful this year we had a wonderful crop of veggies especially that king of the patch, the tomato. never made it in the house :)

i'm thankful that the plum tree we transplanted & then died came back from the actual roots and made about 5 little trunks. even made enough flowers to pollinate the big tree that hadn't set fruit before.

thankful the tree ducks stayed in the pond even though i couldn't throw food far enough to get it in the water. they're out there right now, and i can actually SEE them since the bushes have died back to sticks.

grateful i managed to get all the tender pot plants inside this year. to thank me, the gardinias bloomed again and the jasmine are setting flowers.

thankful the loot rail is, if not actually dead yet, at least in hybernation.

thankfu my disabled plates didn't go to the wrong adress. again.

lastly, thankful i don't have enough family (just the kid) to be mega-stressful and running around trying to get everything j u s t r i g h t so visiting family will be satisfied with the holiday. i've had the big family thing most of my life, and it is SUCH A RELIEF to just be able to do what one can, cook what one can afford, and know that the people one is with truely love you. doesn't have to even be family. i value honesty a lot nowadays, and i'd rather have homeless ppl i know, help & talk to at my house than most of my family. i've got little time left, and none for hyprocacy.

anyway....HAPPY THANKSGIVING DAY AND HAPPY PREPARATIONS to all my friends and fellow debators here in the basement. even you, lou.

DeeLittle — November 25, 2013 at 11:21 p.m. ( | suggest removal

I enjoyed reading your gratitude list, DeeLittle. So glad you shared it with us.
The brouhaha over the proposed 1% property tax hike in Vancouver paled compared to the testimony I heard last night against the Tesoro-Savage oil transfer station at the Port during the Vancouver City Council public forum period.

I am grateful that there are enough interested and articulate people who have done good research on this issue and cared enough to share their opinion publicly. Their testimony was compelling and got my attention. If you missed it, I suggest watching the video of it on CVTV between football games this week.

So many critical local issues that may impact our quality of life here. Many environmental groups oppose the CRC and are litigating the record of decision right now. Then we have coal trains, oil trains and a potentially dangerous transfer station at the Port.

Individually, we do not have the time to investigate all the pros and cons extensively on every critical issue on our own, so sharing of research and opinion helps. The persons who testified at city council last night got my attention (they were not your usual emotional public comment naysayers: they came armed with data, as well as opinion) on an issue I placed on my back burner. Time to move it to the front and carefully consider its risks and benefits.

manthou — November 26, 2013 at 4:25 a.m. ( | suggest removal


I see The Columbian didn't consider the Tesoro testimony worth covering - At least, all I can find on-line and in today's hard copy is the 1% tax increase.

Anyhow, most of what I've heard around here comes from Steinke and his fellow environmentalists. I get what they're saying - growing up on the East Coast, I have memories of large pipes discharging waste into our rivers and smokestacks spewing dark smoke into the air, and would hate to return to those days. Having said this, where is the correlation being drawn between those practices and the argument being made here - the potential for a "catastrophic" accident, or spillage from daily operations? And unfortunately, without passage of an international accord like Kyoto, the global impact argument is an extremely weak one.

The real argument, to me, is one of interfering with commerce. We are not going to stop oil and coal from moving through our region, any more than Nebraskans are going to stop the Keystone XL pipeline from passing through their state to the holding tanks in Cushing Oklahoma. The Boeing decision to continue moving operations elsewhere will lead to an increased ability of the refineries and terminals on the northern Puget Sound to control the discussion in Olympia. We are a business and sales tax dependent state, and the income these operations will generate has to be considered. (Side note - Commerce, i.e. the transportation between the ports up north and those in our area, is probably the only thing keeping the CRC on life support.)

Perhaps pessimistic (I prefer pragmatic), but I think the discussion needs to turn to controls placed on the operations. Demand state laws be passed requiring coal trains be covered. If there's spillage, require a plastic sheath in the bottom of the coal cars. Oil spillage can be contained; we need to look at how this is done elsewhere and demand the best options be implemented here.

There is a compromise that can be worked out - it's being done elsewhere, both in the US and abroad.

roger — November 26, 2013 at 5:45 a.m. ( | suggest removal

roger: I suspect the governor will see the balance needed you call for and approve the Tesoro-Savage business at the Port "conditionally." I do realize that the public often calls for "no risk" options that are not very practical or possible.
Drift, this one's for you. This also demonstrates the value of having a separate elected county executive, which I hope the Freeholders recommend for Clark County:

Freeholder swearing in tonight. BOCC circus this morning at 10. Tuesdays are becoming a well-anticipated spectacle in my household.

manthou — November 26, 2013 at 6:21 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Very nice list, Dee. Thanks for sharing.

Anybody read the LTE by Gary Smith? Did I understand it correctly, did he praise McCarthy?

Is it the dry air that emptied his brain?

luvithere — November 26, 2013 at 6:22 a.m. ( | suggest removal

"BOCC circus this morning at 10."

manthou — November 26, 2013 at 6:21 a.m.

Thanks for the heads up manthou. Will slate it for viewing, perhaps to include intermittent inane commentary. :)


Man, where's the cat anyway?

nailingit — November 26, 2013 at 7:26 a.m. ( | suggest removal

nailingit: I told you guys that the cat serves a critical function on here. :)

Hey, Anita Largent's tort claim expires on December 15th! We are nearing the two week mark and counting down.

Will the county settle to avoid the bad publicity and financial risks of a trial?

Lord, as much as I want to protect our tax dollars, I'd pay admission for a front row seat to this fish fry. With the EEO violation threats, this could have Federal sanction implications, as well.

The $300,000 settlement suggestion is a lower limit number, too. Benton and his pals have provided added self-incriminating fuel since the tort claim was filed on October 16th, which ups the ante considerably.

manthou — November 26, 2013 at 7:41 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Totally random observation: I think Scott Hewitt has the best beat on The Columbian and that he does a fantastic job. He seems to be a good egg, too.

Ran into him and some of his reporter colleagues at a downtown watering hole recently. He was, by far, the most gracious and responsive among them when I approached the table for a quick chat.

Who cares about one of the last remaining subscriber/fans, anyway? Not many, outside Scott, apparently. :)

manthou — November 26, 2013 at 7:47 a.m. ( | suggest removal

jacjak — November 25, 2013 at 10:39 a.m + nailingit — November 25, 2013 at 12:08 p.m

The corruption in the police and sheriffs offices across this country has been going on for years. I remember a huge brouhaha in NY when I was a kid over corrupt cops. Boston is another city I remember a big investigation.

After WW11, in the south..there was a man that came home from war and found the same corrupt people in power as well as the sheriff. He gathers others from town along with some of the vets that returned from war to stand against the powers that ran the town. After the election (that he ran in I believe for sheriff) he along with other vets broke in and stole the ballet boxes after the sheriff announced the winners. The boxes were never opened by the sheriff, ballots never counted, the war vet was told he never received a vote.
After getting the state patrol and the states attorney to this town, he had the voting boxes opened. The corrupt ones that ran the town as well as the sheriff, did not receive one vote.
The war vet, other vets in town and farmers received the votes for a win.

I hope I recounted the story right, been many years ago that I found out about this. In fact they even made a movie about it in blk/wht.

ELISI — November 26, 2013 at 7:55 a.m. ( | suggest removal

luvithere — November 25, 2013 at 1:46 p.m

Glad you made it there. They are in the process of winding down to shutter the doors for the season. Open again next June. Best time to go is from end of July to Nov. I start going in June to get berries for jam and jelly making.

goldenoldie — November 25, 2013 at 2:49 p.m

I have seen the crazies pop wheelie on Mill Plain too.

goldenoldie — November 25, 2013 at 2:50 p.m


ELISI — November 26, 2013 at 8:03 a.m. ( | suggest removal

DeeLittle — November 25, 2013 at 11:21 p.m

Happy Thanksgiving back at you! Nice list of " Thankful's"

I'm thankful for being alive, after my bout in the hospital earlier this year.

Thankful I am able to at least talk by phone or Skype with my daughter and grandkids. I miss them so much. So many out there have no communication with their families.

Thankful I have a home and food in my pantry. Way too many are homeless, and going without food in this land we call the riches country in the world. With the resources we have not one person should be going hungry or homeless.

Just to mention a few, so thankful for many things this year, too long a list to say.

ELISI — November 26, 2013 at 8:15 a.m. ( | suggest removal

luvithere — November 26, 2013 at 6:22 a.m.

I generally don't read the LTTE for just this reason. Silly stuff, mired in a Fox News/Rush Limbaugh type bubble that produces nothing meaningful. Maybe the Columbian doesn't receive anything decent to print from it's viewership.

As for your dry air comment, I'm thinking the vacuum he lives in sucked that canister dry a long, long time ago.

nailingit — November 26, 2013 at 8:50 a.m. ( | suggest removal

This oughta cause some hard core catholic republicans heads to spin! Somebody get Father Lankester Merrin on the horn. Let the bile begin! (if he could only exorcise the house...)

///Pope Francis 'Evangelii Gaudium' Calls For Renewal Of Roman Catholic Church, Attacks 'Idolatry Of Money'///

(Reuters) - Pope Francis called for renewal of the Roman Catholic Church and attacked unfettered capitalism as "a new tyranny", urging global leaders to fight poverty and growing inequality in the first major work he has authored alone as pontiff.

The 84-page document, known as an apostolic exhortation, amounted to an official platform for his papacy, building on views he has aired in sermons and remarks since he became the first non-European pontiff in 1,300 years in March.

In it, Francis went further than previous comments criticizing the global economic system, attacking the "idolatry of money" and beseeching politicians to guarantee all citizens "dignified work, education and healthcare".

He also called on rich people to share their wealth. "Just as the commandment 'Thou shalt not kill' sets a clear limit in order to safeguard the value of human life, today we also have to say 'thou shalt not' to an economy of exclusion and inequality. Such an economy kills," Francis wrote in the document issued on Tuesday.

"How can it be that it is not a news item when an elderly homeless person dies of exposure, but it is news when the stock market loses 2 points?"

Read more @

nailingit — November 26, 2013 at 9:02 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Someone is going to call Pope Francis a dirty socialist if he keeps this up. :)

manthou — November 26, 2013 at 9:31 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Nail- Good morning and welcome back. Your comment regading Obama"s Secretive Kissenger like deal. Kissenger was not a Liberal nor was he liberal like or liberal leaning. He was thought a thoughtfull, Forsightfull and pure Diplomat. He would never have done this deal.IMHO.. Mr Clinton made the same mistake 20 years ago with N Korea. and look how that has changed the face of Nuclear power. N Korea is also and has been for some time supplying Iran with much over the past 10 years. Only time will tell. I certainly hope to not see it in my lifetime nor my childrens lifetime.. We don't even get to inspect all there locations. How ill we know what there really doing..With everything Mr Obama has said and done over his one plus administartions how can you trust this guy???I'm serious, how can you trust him?

If he would have laid out Obamacare in 09 and said it was going to raise your premiuims, change your doctors, for most people do you think he would have been able to get the votes then, NO!.. He knew and so did many in the industry this wasn't going to flush out like he said.. Anyway It's nice to see you back and posting incitefull thoughts as usual.

vanwadreamer — November 26, 2013 at 9:37 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Thanks for your kind words vanwa. I understand Kissinger was not liberal, and not seeing your point here. I support good policy regardless of ideological leanings.

As for trusting Obama, I can only wonder what you thought of Bush and Reagan when they were in office. That Iran-Contra thing and countless Bushisms that occurred.

From what I can tell, Kissinger seems to be somewhat of a fan of this Presidents Middle East foreign policy decisions.


OMG! The Crain just swooped in for a landing! When she does that quotation thing with her fingers it...

...scares the hell out of me!

nailingit — November 26, 2013 at 10:28 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Meilke is still trying to absorb what it meant when someone referred to him as "the ghost of christmas past", wondering if the remark was complimentary or not. Lee Jensen (sp?) quoting Stuart damning the Benton hire. Madore and Meilke claiming it wasn't properly translated into King James text. Doan beating a dead horse. Do we still have anyone working in animal control?

nailingit — November 26, 2013 at 10:53 a.m. ( | suggest removal


Both Reagan and Bush made mistakes and probably lied as well. That being said doesn't make what Obama just did or has done since taking the Presidency. I'm just saying what he just did was the most egregious error of his presidency and those that have preceded him... IRAN cannot be trusted..

MR Pollard left town for a couple days and says , wow how long are you going to let your Bulldog benton off leash.. Swearing at the commissioners, Benton Picks on old men and women..OH poor Mr Pollard.. He should have slowly went away and lived a peacefull time away from politics... He says nothing that was relevant except things chnaged so much in the few days he was gone.. Very sour man... Maybe he should go back to Pauls for a beverage...

vanwadreamer — November 26, 2013 at 10:58 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Nailingit --- Aunt Blabby or Maude Frickert?

I think of them when I hear Micheline Doan but she doesn't exhibit any humor.

langenthal — November 26, 2013 at 10:58 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Royce Pollard encouraging commissioners to stuff a sock in the mouth of Don Benton. With Christmas coming up, I think a xxx-mas stocking would be in order. -

langenthal- LOL

nailingit — November 26, 2013 at 11:04 a.m. ( | suggest removal

"Both Reagan and Bush made mistakes and probably lied as well."

vanwadreamer — November 26, 2013 at 10:58 a.m.

Probably the earth is not flat, and probably the sun is shining.

nailingit — November 26, 2013 at 11:07 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Crain citing her enthusiasm for Benton's work in waste management. There's a duel joke here but I don't want to get .. sewered.

nailingit — November 26, 2013 at 11:14 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Probably lied? Probably lied?
You mean Regan swearing up and down about Iran Contra, Bush and his weapons?


Van, Iran probably can't be trusted but quite frankly, neither can we. Should have left them alone back then instead of forcing them to have a hand picked gov. Wonder how we would feel if somebody on the outside would try to tell us who governs.

Oh wait....

luvithere — November 26, 2013 at 11:19 a.m. ( | suggest removal

nailingit --- Wait! What does Crain want to do with our souls?

langenthal — November 26, 2013 at 11:19 a.m. ( | suggest removal

langenthal- I couldn't decipher all of what she said as I was terrified, and that flight or fight thing was happening with nowhere to run.

My best guess is she wants to eat them.

nailingit — November 26, 2013 at 11:25 a.m. ( | suggest removal

nailingit --- from Wizard of Oz

... but just try to stay out of my way – just try! I'll get you, my pretty, and your little dog too!

langenthal — November 26, 2013 at 11:33 a.m. ( | suggest removal

langenthal- Does that make Meilke, Madore & Benton her flying monkeys?

nailingit — November 26, 2013 at 11:36 a.m. ( | suggest removal

As a side note: I just realized how absolutely round Meilke's head is. Kinda like an older Charlie Brown.

nailingit — November 26, 2013 at 11:47 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Meilke must have just had Oral surgery. He is speaking like he has marbles in his mouth. Somewhat hard to understand.

vanwadreamer — November 26, 2013 at 12:21 p.m. ( | suggest removal

He has always spoken this way, vanwadreamer. It is colloquially known as "mush mouth."
Technically, it is called a "lateral s." It is a speech impediment that might be exacerbated by dental work. Just speculation. Or he has a wad of chew in his cheek.
This has entered the Twilight Zone, with the attorney telling Madore: My office will not certify the form of these references. I have never seen this used in a resolution before.

So much wasted time, I could scream. This is like pandering to a person who is paralyzed by his own obsessive/compulsive issues. It is absolutely hobbling the BOCC from getting real "matters of consequence" completed. Calling Dr. Freud, Dr. Freud……stat.

Poor guy: what would it be like to live in Madore's skin?

manthou — November 26, 2013 at 12:33 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Give 'em hell, Eddie.

I don't think the PA's office has been assertive enough with this clown, either.

manthou — November 26, 2013 at 12:41 p.m. ( | suggest removal

vanwadreamer — November 26, 2013 at 12:21 p.m.

They don't call him 'mumbles' for nothin'!

manthou — November 26, 2013 at 12:33 p.m.

Ed going red!

It is amazing that this so-called non-binding 'integrity' resolution is allowed to take up so much of the commission's time, to include our tax dollars.

I'm understanding Ed Barne's popularity. He certainly doesn't waver and tells it like it is.

Crain writes section 7 is awesome! Perhaps confused with section 8?? Just crazy stuff!

nailingit — November 26, 2013 at 12:53 p.m. ( | suggest removal

manthou --- 12:41 In spades!

It takes Ed Barnes to point out that PA has been soft on this. Madore is so anxious to put on a show and he is being thwarted.

Now I'm liking Jensen and Molstead.

langenthal — November 26, 2013 at 12:54 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Yes. Two thumbs up with the last two commenters. I like both their concise delivery and content.

They are gonna pass this disaster of a resolution? Madore and Mielke are nuts.

manthou — November 26, 2013 at 12:58 p.m. ( | suggest removal

vanwadreamer: It's hard to talk through a smirk while telling people that ignoring policies, precedent, qualifications,backdating/altering documents, and violating promises to conduct County business in an open transparent manner, is an acceptable practice because it's legal.

JohnK — November 26, 2013 at 12:58 p.m. ( | suggest removal

hawkeye — November 25, 2013 at 7:24 p.m.

If it's anywhere near SR-503, headed towards Cougar, we've witnessed their antics. Imagine riding on a narrow two-lane highway southbound and a crowd of these riders going the other way decide to play around.

I have to say though, there are some groups on those fast bikes who are respectable on the roadway but it's the crotch rocket cronies who ignore the rules of the road that I get pissy over.

goldenoldie — November 26, 2013 at 1:05 p.m. ( | suggest removal

"I'm no dummy." Directly from Mielke's mouth.

manthou — November 26, 2013 at 1:05 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Oh...and hawkeye, we have our own little bunch of rowdy CR riders on our own street. All it takes is one look and they back off.

goldenoldie — November 26, 2013 at 1:07 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Throwing Stones from a Glass House Resolution: Steve Stuart's tongue-in-cheek rename suggestion.

manthou — November 26, 2013 at 1:10 p.m. ( | suggest removal

DeeLittle — November 25, 2013 at 11:21 p.m.

Nice write...and I wish you all the best this Holiday season as I do everyone else here in Columbianland!


A possible heads up in the weather department for next week, folks!!! The National Weather Services is predicting some colder weather next week...possibly in the upper 30's for a high and 20 for lows. Pat Timm's write is hinting the same possible weather scenario as did Joe English on KATU. There might be some low level snows next week!!!

goldenoldie — November 26, 2013 at 1:21 p.m. ( | suggest removal

manthou — November 26, 2013 at 1:10 p.m.

I didn't know Steve Stuart lived in a glass house!!!


goldenoldie — November 26, 2013 at 1:22 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Yeah, goldie. I know we are on opposite sides of this issue. Checks and balances demand that someone provide a challenge and Stuart gets the honor. For now, anyway. :)

Erik Hidle's tweets are spot-on observations.

I smell a new edition of APIL sock puppet theater in the making……….

manthou — November 26, 2013 at 1:30 p.m. ( | suggest removal

How Stuart keeps from going absolutely bananas I don't know. What a display of incompetence these two conservative commissioners are putting on.

What other future resolutions will Madore use to break down this commission with?

nailingit — November 26, 2013 at 1:32 p.m. ( | suggest removal

I just can't believe the whole thing... I would get rid of all three of them. Stuart doesn't have any ideas of his own to move on nor does he show the leadership nessassary move on actual issues.. What a waste of time... I would rather strip wallpaper from walls. Oh boy hope the wifey doesn't read this...Quite frustrating for sure couldn't watch after Pollard came to the stand. What an unprofessional delivery from someone who was just our mayor. This is the man who could have still been in there. Maybe they get all there work done in other meetings.

vanwadreamer — November 26, 2013 at 1:42 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Hidle is exceptional today.

Loved it when Stuart told Madore that responses to Couch are available & Madore didn't include them.

"It's a waste of everybody's time and resources." Steve Stuart

langenthal — November 26, 2013 at 1:44 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Not on Twitter but they usedto show the tweets on the C. Any idea where I can access?

luvithere — November 26, 2013 at 1:44 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Don't forget Freeholder swearing in and first meeting tonight. 6 pm. CVTV live.

manthou — November 26, 2013 at 1:45 p.m. ( | suggest removal

uvithere: Here ya' go:

You don't need to be a tweeter to read these. :)

manthou — November 26, 2013 at 1:53 p.m. ( | suggest removal

It's not a lot, but it's a start... and probably a fight.

Speaking of fights... anyone keeping up with the For Profit businesses bringing the AMA birth control mandate to the Supreme Count? Today the Court agreed to hear the case. Churches and religious non-profits are already exempt, so am curious how the For Profits will present themselves as to having empirical firsthand convictions on intimate and personal aspect of their group insurance coverage. I mean, wouldn't it have to be presented as a conviction in order to also be included in the exemption?

jacjak — November 26, 2013 at 1:54 p.m. ( | suggest removal

luvithere --- Come up with a name & sign up for Twitter. I don't know of a regular place in Columbian.

Follow: @col_clarkgov; @norskiewa; @NolandHoshino. They are still tweeting on this. @col_cityhall Stephanie Rice hasn't tweeted today.

Erik Hidle ‏@col_clarkgov 5m
I could keep tweeting but let's just all agree they are still arguing and nothing is changing.

langenthal — November 26, 2013 at 2:06 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Thanks guys, read the tweets. This is one of the dumbest things those two clowns came up with in a long time.
Referencing himself? The man really is not quite there in his head.

luvithere — November 26, 2013 at 2:23 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Still catching up a bit on my local reading. Some great Benton articles for those interested. :)

nailingit — November 26, 2013 at 2:59 p.m. ( | suggest removal

It's a start.

///President Obama pitches new rules for political nonprofits///

In an aggressive move designed to crack down on free-spending outside political groups, the Obama administration is proposing strict new rules curtailing nonprofits like Karl Rove’s Crossroads GPS and the pro-Obama Priorities USA.

The draft proposal, released Tuesday by the Treasury Department, would keep so-called social welfare 501(c)(4) nonprofits from getting a tax exemption if they engage in too much “candidate related” political activity.

Read more:

nailingit — November 26, 2013 at 3:24 p.m. ( | suggest removal

manthou — November 26, 2013 at 1:30 p.m.

It was a joke, manthou...a blasted joke (understandably a weak one).

goldenoldie — November 26, 2013 at 4:17 p.m. ( | suggest removal

manthou — November 26, 2013 at 1:53 p.m., luvithere — November 26, 2013 at 2:23 p.m.

What a waste of time...reading Eric Hilde's tweets. He says, he says, they say, he WONDER there's so much emotion in today's posts!!! Go for the facts, people...not the emotions.

goldenoldie — November 26, 2013 at 4:21 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Come to think of it...manthou, you are really caught up in the goings on in the county, today...even a bit on the defensive side...

Are you SURE your first name isn't Stephanie???

goldenoldie — November 26, 2013 at 4:27 p.m. ( | suggest removal

It would appear there are some opinions of me here. Most of you are being nice, and most of you spelled my name right. Thanks for reading guys, and have a happy Thanksgiving.

Erik Hidle (Columbian Staff) — November 26, 2013 at 4:41 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Back at you Erik and thanks for stopping in. And please, keep the tweets coming!

nailingit — November 26, 2013 at 4:59 p.m. ( | suggest removal

jacjak — November 26, 2013 at 1:54 p.m.

The fact that our conservative leaning court is taking on this issue is a bad sign for those caring about affordable women's health care.

A great discussion on this topic just took place on 'All In With Chris Hayes'. It's on again a 8:00. I'm sure Rachel Maddow will have this front and center as well.

nailingit — November 26, 2013 at 5:18 p.m. ( | suggest removal

it was a joke, manthou...a blasted joke (understandably a weak one).
goldenoldie — November 26, 2013 at 4:17 p.m.
Come to think of it...manthou, you are really caught up in the goings on in the county, today...even a bit on the defensive side...
Are you SURE your first name isn't Stephanie???
goldenoldie — November 26, 2013 at 4:27 p.m.

What a gal....

soapbox4u — November 26, 2013 at 5:42 p.m. ( | suggest removal

The cat is not around for the daily battle, soapbox. :)

Hey, all: Freeholder meeting not live tonight on CVTV? Showing re-runs and news only.

manthou — November 26, 2013 at 6:01 p.m. ( | suggest removal

does anoone else believe that history repeats itself?

this iran "no profiliration treaty" is a total lie. i support isreal: may they bomb the threat back to the pre-nuclear stone age. it is another biblical sign that end times are near. if they get AND KEEP nuclear weapons, it's just a matter of time before isreal and then we are targets.

imagine what would happen if 'someone' in the middle east ignighted a nuclear terror device. what would we do? who would we retaliate against? God help us when it happens.

DeeLittle — November 26, 2013 at 6:20 p.m. ( | suggest removal

soapbox4u and manthou --- Hat trick! --- Manthou and Erik and Stephanie - all dissed.. That's why we can't have nice things.


pup/holycrap/cat --- Please come back. All is forgiven.

Steve Foster posted this to Clark County Citizens for Good Governance. FH on CVTV. Darn. I wanted to see live.

Mon, Dec 2

7:00 am


Clark County Board of Freeholders

Tue, Dec 3

8:00 pm


Clark County Board of Freeholders

Fri, Dec 6

12:30 pm


Clark County Board of Freeholders

Sun, Dec 8

7:00 pm


Clark County Board of Freeholders

langenthal — November 26, 2013 at 7:02 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Lawrence is covering the birth control issue as did Rachel. Good reruns tonight.


Tweet from Erik at FH:

Erik Hidle ‏@col_clarkgov 23m
#freeholder Marc Boldt says as a truck driver he works with 60 people and none of them knew he was a cty. comm.: "Just goes to show ya."

langenthal — November 26, 2013 at 7:12 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Langenthal it is because most people that can vote don't. They don't know the names of any of our elected officals. It is sad that people have got to this point. When it starts to affect them maybe then they will pay attention. But i doubt it.

timerick — November 26, 2013 at 7:25 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Boy, leave a few hours, read the comments accumulated during that time, shake head.
Went out and had a couple glasses of wine, therefore feeling combative enough. ( no drinking and driving though)

dee, I do not believe in either end times nor do I believe in nuking someone back to the Stone Age. The first I consider silly and the second one, well, I do not believe in nuking anybody. That would be murder. No matter who does it.

luvithere — November 26, 2013 at 7:35 p.m. ( | suggest removal

timerick --- Agreed. If one were devious, it wouldn't be difficult to get a bunch of these dunderheads registered and then "help" them with their ballots, I think that prob happens with some uninformed evangelical voters in other states. Voting by mail is perfect for this.

My son and dil vote - dil fills out their ballots after we email/phone to discuss the choices. My very busy and very intelligent dil watches Rachel on DVR. They just don't keep up with the local issues. My kids are in their 40s. I wish there were more people their age and younger participating at the various meetings. However, if you watch Planning Commission meetings, it seems to me you will see more young people participating who are homeowners.

langenthal — November 26, 2013 at 8:05 p.m. ( | suggest removal

do you really intend for us to believe that leaders of the middle east, the same ones who behead a female because she learned to read, the same ones that burn coptic churches that have been there since 0 A.D., would have ANY compunction in giving dirty bombs to terrorists to set off in US malls? to fulfill its LOOONNNNG held intention to destroy isreal?

you are a chamberlain-esq denier of the truth that there are savage intentions held by powerful countries that WILL NOT be civiized by NATO.

i wish i could agree with your 'peace in our times' ideology, but it just ain't the truth.
when the jihad groups get a nuclear force, THEY WILL USE IT.

DeeLittle — November 26, 2013 at 8:07 p.m. ( | suggest removal

ClarkCountyWA_GOP ‏@ClarkCounty_GOP 19m
Freeholder Chair is Nan Henrickson

ClarkCountyWA_GOP ‏@ClarkCounty_GOP 1h
The Freeholders begin.

Erik Hidle ‏@col_clarkgov 1h
#freeholder Sheriff Garry Lucas said he runs the hotel w/highest occupancy in #ClarkCo. Got laughs. He didn't smile. Just kept talkin'.

Kirsten Andersen ‏@norskiewa 1h
Nice tribute to Rob Figley at #ClarkWA #freeholders meeting. @col_clarkgov

langenthal — November 26, 2013 at 8:15 p.m. ( | suggest removal

@langenthal#tweets/thanks for keeping us non-tweeters in the know. Looking forward to catching the swearing in when available.


Just took a look at Madores face book. It's really weird in that world. It lends the term 'La La Land' definition.


nailingit — November 26, 2013 at 8:23 p.m. ( | suggest removal

luvithere — November 26, 2013 at 7:35 p.m.

I second that!

Not to start it all over again, but IMO Netanyahu is Isreal's Dick Chaney. Still reading at the book 'Countdown: Our Last Best Hope for a Future on Earth' by Alan Weisman. I say reading 'at' because reading it in small doses...disturbing to say the least.

And, while I recognize vast populations believe 'end times' or the 'only' right religion is their own religion, I just can comprehend why, in their minds, there's not enough room for more than one belief system. Everything on earth that exists has versions, kinds, varieties. People, plants & trees, water, winds, germs, diseases, philosophies, sexes, languages.. even human blood has types. I don't need out-breed or nuke anyone to validate my beliefs...thank the Light!

jacjak — November 26, 2013 at 8:27 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Jackie Lane
Just home from the first Freeholders meeting. I guess when a group is mostly professional politicians, shouldn't be surprised that they'd already figured out who was going to be the new chair etc. but they will have a schedule that makes attending for public easy enough.

Jackie Lane
Joe is vice chair, Val O is Secretary
a few seconds ago

langenthal — November 26, 2013 at 9:07 p.m. ( | suggest removal

langenthal: Nan Henricksen used to be mayor of Camas? She was upset and testified against the Benton hire. All five of my District 3 Freeholders are not happy about that, either. I know that Garry Lucas is not pleased with the CC Commission for other reasons. Then we have Boldt, who lost to Madore. There are 8 right there, a majority, who probably want to add at least two more commissioners and an elected Administrator for greater checks and balances.

Just an educated guess on the front end of this process. Many meetings to go. It should be a fun experience for them all and us, as involved spectators. :)

Joe Zarelli the Vice-Chair? Did Ann Rivers not run?

manthou — November 26, 2013 at 9:26 p.m. ( | suggest removal

manthou --- I don't have any info. I am just forwarding what I see on Twitter or Clark County Citizens for Good Governance. Zarelli is vice chair. Maybe Rivers realizes she might have time conflicts. I am District 3 also. I figure the reasonable ones will be 5 Dist 3 + Henrickson + Boldt + Mueller. Wild cards - Dennis & Lucas. Have to see a couple mtgs to see the dynamics.


Sunrise O'Mahoney Keeping focused on this one topic-- In my opinion, I think having most meetings on Saturdays does not make it that easy for the public to attend. I think it would make it easier if they would rotate weeknights and weekends, not everyone will be able to make Saturdays and not everyone can make weeknights. I know for me Sat's are not easy with a younger child at home and may be the same in general for people with families at home. Sounded like they made it on Saturdays because of the legislators and well...

Erik Hidle ‏@col_clarkgov 2h
My phone is dying because I've been in this meeting room all day. But don't worry, the #freeholder meeting is civil so you won't miss much.

langenthal — November 26, 2013 at 10:03 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Langenthal, Henriksen was before my time here but she is still incredibly respected in Camas, more than any other from what I hear and read.
Not a fan of Dennis after his last shenanigans as mayor here but he is usually quite levelheaded.

Jacjak, totally agree with your post. The name Cheney puts fear into my soul. In my opinion, a cold blooded, scheming ... Who only looks out for himself and his. The current head of Israel is a rw warmonger, in my opinion.
Sadly, the last one they had there who wanted peace and seemed to believe that co-existence was possible was killed by one religious misguided "patriot."

They all think their god is the only, right one.

luvithere — November 26, 2013 at 10:56 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Erik Hidle (Columbian Staff) — November 26, 2013 at 4:41 p.m.

Eric, it wasn't a negative hit on was a negative hit against the issues of social media and how easily a person's opinions are misconstrued as fact. You were merely the focus of who was tweeting at the meeting. I apologize for misspelling your name. I have a friend whose last name includes the first five letters "Hilde." It was purely an unintended typo and we ALL make typographical errors (even witnessed in the C's articles on occasion...8)).

No hard feelings.


soapbox4u, nails and manthou...

You can twist my words all you want. That's your prerogative but honestly, is me asking manthou if her first name is Stephanie really an insult? Maybe you think it is, but I don't. Yes, I compared her dedication to the actions in local government to Stephanie Rice and her writes. If you consider that an insult, then maybe YOU people have issues with Stephanie. Don't try to misconstrue my intentions.

goldenoldie — November 27, 2013 at 6:32 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Just read the article:

These two creep me out. I'll just bet you Madore helped (financially) with both of their campaigns.

hawkeye — November 27, 2013 at 6:46 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Good morning, goldie:

No, my first name isn't Stephanie. I am not a journalist, although I was a high school journalist and studied journalism way back when at Ernie Pyle Hall at Indiana U with classmates who were far more talented than I. My career took a turn elsewhere and they now work at Newsday, Cleveland Plain Dealer, Louisville Courier Journal, WBGO, NBC and The Seattle Times, among other media. I don't know anyone who works at The Columbian personally. I don't blog or tweet or FB, but I enjoy reading opinions and stories from professional and citizen journalists alike.

You asked me earlier about my interest and knowledge of free speech and legislation that protects or threatens it: just a lingering interest from the old days. Nothing more or less. I know lawyers who work in this very specialized area.

In other words, I have friends in low places (thank you, Garth Brooks). :)

manthou — November 27, 2013 at 6:56 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Nails, I apologize to you. My post @6:32am referenced you and you hadn't said a thing. My focus was meant to be to manthou, LANGENTHAL and soapbox4u.

goldenoldie — November 27, 2013 at 7:01 a.m. ( | suggest removal

hawkeye: I was disturbed by the information in that article, as well. Local politics seems to echo what is happening in some regressive states nationally.

manthou — November 27, 2013 at 7:02 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Good morning, manthou. You truly didn't have to respond to my tease of yesterday. I am glad to see you have such an interest in local politics as there aren't as many as there should be. You take the time to read what people have to say and respectfully oppose their thoughts when the time is right. You bring a lot of good points to the discussion and I hope you continue.

goldenoldie — November 27, 2013 at 7:04 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Well folks, what I'm about to say is MY opinion and mine alone on Clark County/Vancouver City government and I don't need an "Integrity Resolution" to prove my point (pun intended). Some of you might agree with what I state, others might disagree and I'm sure you'll have plenty to say about it but sometimes the truth is so bothersome, it grinds on your mind and you have to utilize your fight or flight mode during discussion and I understand your concerns. I've had to utilize mine as well in the past.

It's about the tie in of County versus City government. Yes, they are tied together. It is obvious by this month's election, that far less than 50% of the registered voters did what they were obligated to do, leaving the decision by the people who cared to take the time to vote...and the people paid dearly, especially at the City level. Just by the numbers...the contributions to the campaigns gives a clear indication of who paid to influence the people the most. With regards to the County, the higher number of votes by the PEOPLE rather than the limited special interest groups of the City spoke loud and clear what they thought of several special interests or massive campaign contributions to sway what we already knew was a bad idea to begin with.

You who are quite vocal regarding the "M&M; Boys" and those who were SUPPOSEDLY supported by Madore, even though he declared NO contributions to those is obvious, it concerns you that the M&M; Boys have control at the county level and for what reasons, you actually have never made that clear. Yeah, I may not always agree with the ways of the M&M; Boys, but that's not the point. The point is, the 2/3rds majority at the BOCC level is unnerving to the majority at the City level, the same majority who was well paid by those who have the funding to invest in paying out a campaign.

Of anything, people...we need to come together to form a solution. The M&M; Boys have clearly shown a disconnect that the city has with the rest of the county. It shouldn't be "What the City of Vancouver wants is the number one priority and to Hell with the hillbillies outside City limits." As long as YOU continue to support the financial special interests of our city with this crazy issue that the M&M; Boys are out to destroy the county when it's obvious the city and all its glory have tarnished good politics well before Madore was even in office, that solution is becoming farther away from ever being reached.

Of anything, it has been quite beneficial to the voters of Clark County, having Tom Mielke and David Madore going up against the GOBK. They've opened our eyes to the corruption that has been allowed to go for far too long. It's time for a solution. It's not time for a smear campaign.

How 'bout it, City of Vancouver and Clark County??? Are you willing to work FOR the people as you were elected to do in the first place???

Happy Thanksgiving, Everyone.

goldenoldie — November 27, 2013 at 9:09 a.m. ( | suggest removal

please excuse the inappropriate use of ' and ; folks...unintended typos

goldenoldie — November 27, 2013 at 9:12 a.m. ( | suggest removal

It's a good idea to remember that the Freeholders are "only" coming up with a proposed home rule charter - The voters have to accept it. The more changes that are recommended, the more opportunity there is for people to oppose it. For example, will the same people who agree with the initiative and referendum process also agree with transferring County Comm powers to a Chief Executive?

It'll be interesting to see if they can come up with a final product in time to make the 2014 ballot. It's one of the "in between" years - mainly our Representatives (and Steve Stuart) up for reelection. I'm wondering whether a moderate voter turnout helps or hinders the chance of passage.

roger — November 27, 2013 at 10:04 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Goldenoldie: Surely you're not suggesting that Comm. Madore was not supporting the so called Madore-4 in the last election. I don't know, and neither do you,whether Madore provided any financial support., but he certainly supported them. (i have no evidence of financial aid, but as I'm sure your recent investigation into our woefully inadequate public disclosure requirements is showing just how easily such contributions can be legally disguised or hidden from public view.)

I'm not suggesting Madore broke any laws, but he has a long and well documented history of skirting around the edges of openness-transparency standards or acting as if 'legal' was synonymous with 'right.'

We'll probably never know the truth, but the absence of publicly disclosable donations by Madore to the Madore-4 is a clear indication that Madore knew just how damaging his ideology and political style was to voters outside his base constituency.

If the last election has taught us anything, it's just how damaging negative campaigning can be to public participation levels.

JohnK — November 27, 2013 at 10:05 a.m. ( | suggest removal

I'd say the low voter turnout was mostly due to it being an odd year election. The vast majority of our County residents are relatively clueless about local politics, and don't consider it worth their time to become educated on the issues. They'll vote for POTUS and our other Federal legislators and consider that good enough.

Negative campaigning has a long history in our country, and may actually increase turnout - depends on the issues and personalities involved. Ford and Carter were Presidents during some pretty tough economic times, but - if my memory is on track - lost mainly due to the ridicule the opposition party subjected them to.

roger — November 27, 2013 at 10:29 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Goldy.johnk and roger you all make some very good and interesting points. As far as Madore goes, I did vote for him. Do I wish I had my vote back. Yes at this time I do. I thought our county needed a shakeup. I really did not think that he would come in with as big a broom as he did. I do have to agree with old HC about how corrupt the county has been. I just wish I had knowledge of the things that I think he had. He kept that pretty close to his vest. And johnk you are so right about Madore. Every person he touched was like the kiss of death politicaly. If he would have handled himself differently I do believe he could have made a positive difference. To bad because now we will most likely never know.

timerick — November 27, 2013 at 10:48 a.m. ( | suggest removal

from the article hawkeye referenced--

As an alternative to Sea Mar, Shoemaker and Freeman point to Camas-based Community Pregnancy Clinic, a Christian center that's anti-abortion.

There's a catch in that, Garland said: The Children's Home Society of Washington already provides its clients with information about the Community Pregnancy Clinic. Shoemaker said that doesn't change his position.

"For me, it doesn't change anything," he said. "They still refer people for medical procedures that I don't think are beneficial to the community."

I wonder is these two even followed up to see how many-or few-of these "referrals" where actually women searching for an abortion provider? Seeing as how they where also given the name of Christian (i.e. non-abortion) provider is what's really bothering these two the fact that people are making choices they oppose? Therefore food and choice must not be provided? Deny a kid food because mommy might, just might consider an abortion? Did they even stop to find out if women are coming in specifically for a name of a place that might provide an abortion? Wow, talk about tossing the baby out with the bathwater.

And when is giving a list of health-care providers to low-income folks who then receive another list of health care providers, some that do provide abortions considered a referral? I'm not real comfortable with abortion being used as a last resort of birth control, but these two are over the top on this one. Sad part is, they probably have some company out there in their never-never land.

mrd — November 27, 2013 at 11:24 a.m. ( | suggest removal

And to make us all feel warm and fuzzy, I am baking all day. pumpkin, apple, mocha, winter fruit walnut pies, pumpkin cranberry bread, pumpkin raisin almond bread.
Think I got enough?

luvithere — November 27, 2013 at 11:25 a.m. ( | suggest removal

luvithere: I wish you could forward all those delicious smells our way. I can do without the calories, though.

timerick: One of Madore's greatest weakness is his inability to forge positive political coalitions for his ideas with his elected colleagues. How does he try to do it? By lecturing, shaming, and embarrassing the opposition into submission. That style obviously worked for him in his business and family because he does not have to share the throne with anyone else in those settings. The technique has backfired in public office and will continue to do so.

Who is left in his court? Ideologues like Connie Jo Freeman and Tom Mielke and voters who want government to come to a standstill.

I thank him for inspiring the Freeholder movement. It might be the best opportunity for Clark County to regain some respect and balance.

manthou — November 27, 2013 at 12:31 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Please, all of you out there, have a very happy Thanksgiving and remember if you drive watch out for the few idiots out there who still think the road is only for their use.

I will be the one driving this year. As far as that goes I only have to go twenty miles but as the old saying goes ...

One more thing. Will you have leftovers manthou? LOL I'm partial to old fashion stuffing with bread cubes. It should be infused with mushrooms, sweet sausage, onion, garlic and some spices like sage and an Italian mix. For a change up I put olives in it. Two kinds. And don't forget the giblets. I could live on this forever but I would end up looking like the Good Year blimp!!

See ya all Friday and be safe.

JohnCasey — November 27, 2013 at 1:15 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Manthou: I don't think that he is opposed to sharing his throne. He must have done that with his company when he was elected. I am sure he retained final say in some matters. But day to day operations are probably dealt with by someone other than him. I do think he uses his money to intimidate. And he talks down to those he does not agree with. When you put yourself on that high of a perch you are bound to get toppled over sooner or later. We also have several others in this town that do the same thing. They use their money to sway and buy what they want. The trick for us average peons is to not fall for the golden apple. It can be hard to resist if it will move you up the ladder. I think that is why we see some good people go sour after being in office for awhile.

timerick — November 27, 2013 at 1:21 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Roger @ 10:29 a.m.: There's no question that off year elections and ignorance plays a significant role in low voter turnout, but many people choose not to participate in the name calling and negativity of a political campaign for many of the same reasons they won’t participate (or even read) unmoderated political forums.

That's why the Columbian, and most other newspapers, use monitors and guidelines to enforce civility, primarily because it increases participation and thus advertising revenue.

Going Negative is a favored tool of campaign managers on the wrong side of the issues or a candidate with poor poll numbers because it works. Usually.

JohnK — November 27, 2013 at 1:55 p.m. ( | suggest removal

JohnK — November 27, 2013 at 10:05 a.m.

So John, out of curiosity...just where is it you heard the so-called nicknamed rhetoric (which I refuse to state) you referenced in your comment regarding Madore? You, yourself admitted you don't know whether or not there was any financial support of these people by him, yet you find yourself asking questions due to what was written as speculation by those who are out to oust the greenhorn commissioner. We hear it on TV, read it in the news sites and blogs as well as Twitter and FB and word of mouth. If we hear or see it enough times, it's no wonder so many take it as fact. Now take the financial contributions by those who support a certain clique in city/county government and it's obvious as well as documented evidence. Taking an expression of emotion as fact because someone doesn't like another person...that'll get anybody in reporters especially.

You see JohnK, putting a cutesy label on a political slam because someone has it out for the other's called dirty politics and anybody who has allowed themselves to get caught up even as a pawn in the game of dirty politics...are just as guilty spreading rumors as the ones who used you (a matter of speech...not intending you directly, either) in the first place.

It is all too obvious to me just who is behind all these innuendos and play of words are coming from. All it took was an open mind to see the truth. Not saying it isn't on both sides of the coin, but it's obvious the dirt slinging has been strongly one sided.

If we screen out all the "He Said, She Said, They Said" BS in most writes and just stick to the facts, I think you'd agree with me that we would definitely see the truth.

goldenoldie — November 27, 2013 at 2:05 p.m. ( | suggest removal

JohnCasey: Leftovers? You bet! Your sausage recipe ingredients sound savory and delicious. Never considered olives, but it makes sense. Enjoy your dinner and have a safe drive. :)

timerick: You are an "average peon" that I want in the fox hole with me: kindness, good intuition and a healthy, protective skepticism. Clark County and Vancouver will survive the politicians and shenanigans. I have faith that it will because the persons who live here won't let it go down the tubes. I really look forward to watching the Freeholders in action. It is a good, diverse group and I believe they will find more commonalities than differences. I expect they will be the model on how elected officials should serve. Pat Jollota will write a book about it. :)

manthou — November 27, 2013 at 2:16 p.m. ( | suggest removal

JohnK, one more statement then I'll leave it at that unless you have something you'd like me to think about...

Two of our county commissioners...albeit a bit unorthodox (understatement?), hold the majority vote on many issues a certain group opposes 99% of the time. The opposition will do whatever it takes to bring them down...even slander their names, ruin their reputations by sensationalizing on something which is essentially not a news maker. By doing so, the tarnished reputation (not only by those out to cause problems for the commissioners but by their own doing on occasion) festers and who is it that pays for it in the end, JohnK??? Is it the wealthy commissioner? Is it the seasoned commissioner??? Of course not. It's the people of Clark County.

How can anybody resume business as usual as long as this torrid game of Russian Roulette...politically speaking...continues???

Just some food for thought.

goldenoldie — November 27, 2013 at 2:17 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Freeholder meeting is up and ready to watch:;=3903

manthou — November 27, 2013 at 2:32 p.m. ( | suggest removal

soapbox4u, nails and manthou...
You can twist my words all you want. .......
goldenoldie — November 27, 2013 at 6:32 a.m.

LMBO, my last two posts were cut and paste of goldenoldie's own posts!! Maybe she's feeling a bit ReCAPTCHA.

manthou, pup does have his work cut out for him here. Namaste.

soapbox4u — November 27, 2013 at 2:33 p.m. ( | suggest removal

goldenoldie: I'm at a bit of a loss regarding your reaction to my earlier posting. I wasn't trying to be cute or sensationalizing or even disrespectful when referring to Turlay, Doan, Decker, and Stewart as the Madore 4, but I do believe the term is fairly descriptive of their politics and a fair reading of their collective campaign literature would make it difficult, if not impossible, to detect any significant differences between Comm. Madore's political positions or supporters and those of their own.

In any event, I don't think the term is particularly unfair and it certainly doesn't qualify as dirty politics, especially since use of the term probably started about the time the first of four or five flyers appeared in CC mailboxes featuring the four candidates parroting the political slogans and phraseology used by Madore.

In fact, had Madore not pulled off the hypocritical and boneheaded political move of the year with the Benton appointment, it would not have surprised anyone if the four candidates had used the term to define themselves.

But FYI, on several occasions prior to the election, I used the term Madore 3-½ to describe the four candidates in recognition of Stewart's dilemma and suggestions from several forum members supporting her independent nature.

JohnK — November 27, 2013 at 3:42 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Sundown. Time to light the first candle of the menorah…..

Utah Senator Orrin Hatch, wearing a mezuzah necklace in tribal unity, wrote the lyrics to this rousing Hanukkah song. Go figure. It's great. Enjoy.

manthou — November 27, 2013 at 4:55 p.m. ( | suggest removal

JohnK — November 27, 2013 at 1:55 p.m.

There are those who stay engaged with political/governmental matters (like the people here), and those who don't. Negativity and name calling is perhaps the most effective way used to get the attention of the latter. (MOST people stop and listen to/watch a confrontation; we're a very curious animal.) If not for all the hell raising over what Madore does, would the opposition to him have grown as it apparently has?

No idea who came up with this, but we're not supposed to discuss religion or politics in polite company. There's a reason; both are known to inflame passionate exchanges. (We're also a very quarrelsome animal.) An apt analogy is if you're going to get in the ring, then you need to be prepared to get bloody.

roger — November 27, 2013 at 5:48 p.m. ( | suggest removal

soapbox4u — November 27, 2013 at 2:33 p.m.

All chiding aside...

I wish you a peaceful and Happy Thanksgiving.

goldenoldie — November 27, 2013 at 5:53 p.m. ( | suggest removal

goldie was dead-on.

if there is evidence to support your demonizing madore, show it.

we can certainly do that with leavitt, pollard, obama et al.

what has he done that's destroying the county? what's he said that was condescending and imperious?

when did he try to intimidate and who did he target?

so WHAT if he vigorously supported candidates he agreed with? IT'S CALLED FREEDOM OF SPEECH. remember? and i daresay he broke no new ground in this corrupt little burg of clark county by doing it. In fact, his doing it publicly DID break new ground.

if he gave $1000 to every poor family in the county to buy their kids toys for Christmas, you (the collective 'you') would demand he be arrested for bribing voters.

DeeLittle — November 27, 2013 at 6:15 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Happy Thanksgiving, Forum dwellers. Hope your list of reasons to be thankful is long.

I'm thankful I found where you all went after The Columbian went to a FB platform.

jacjak — November 27, 2013 at 6:23 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Happy Thanksgiving to the basement folks! Let us be thankful we can gripe, nag, bitch, and whine here as much as we do. Adds some joy to my days!

Extra thoughts to Nails and his family in their very difficult time.

May you all run with wolves and fly with dragons.

luvithere — November 27, 2013 at 6:32 p.m. ( | suggest removal

As a single person, I'm grateful to be spending tomorrow with five generations of family including sisters, a dozen nephews and nieces, a yet to be determined number of great nephews, g-nieces, cousins, plus a few other distant relatives.
As the logistics of feeding such a large number of people precludes any chance of my taking any leftovers home, I am also grateful for the !4# turkey defrosting in my refrigerator which will go into the oven first thing Friday morning.

JohnK — November 27, 2013 at 7:50 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Happy Thanksgiving to all. And don't forget to slip a few tidbits to the 4-legged crowd.

JohnK — November 27, 2013 at 7:50 p.m. --- Smart man; always good to have that ace in the hole!

roger — November 27, 2013 at 8:17 p.m. ( | suggest removal

DeeLittle — November 27, 2013 at 6:15 p.m.

Hey Dee, there is so much to "discuss" about Madore, how about we save it until AFTER Thanksgiving. Take your meds, enjoy tomorrow and we'll talk maybe Friday.

hawkeye — November 27, 2013 at 8:26 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Have a GREAT Thanksgiving everyone.

hawkeye — November 27, 2013 at 8:27 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Hey Dee, ..... Take your meds, enjoy tomorrow and we'll talk maybe Friday.
hawkeye — November 27, 2013 at 8:26 p.m.

smarmy, dude.

and no, we won't 'talk maybe friday'. provide the informaton or don't. pick the latter and it speaks for itself.


DeeLittle — November 27, 2013 at 8:36 p.m. ( | suggest removal

luvit- Deine Gedanken sind sehr geschätzt.


Happy Thanksgiving basement folk. My holiday time with all of family won't get underway until late afternoon, and I just happened to think I'll be the oldest person there. I mentioned this to my wife a little bit ago, and she said, "you always are". Time certainly does fly-and it seems many times to fly 'south'. :)

I'm thankful most of us respect human life enough as to not advocate for the annihilation of more than 77 million Persian men, women, and children. And to think these same people's ilk by and large feign outrage over contraception use and abortion.

I watched the Freeholders video, and I realized just how far removed this freeholder election result was from the ordinary Joe/Joesephine having a say. Nothing but well connected politicos and polished politicians involved. Almost enough to make me a strong advocate for less government. :)

Anyway, just checking in and thought to say hey.


Peace & goodwill to all.

nailingit — November 27, 2013 at 11:31 p.m. ( | suggest removal

To all my fellow cooks and chefs: good morning. Let the feast begin.

luvithere — November 28, 2013 at 5:47 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Good morning and Happy Thanksgiving and Happy Hanukkah.

Today, I am thankful for family and friends who have made life so enjoyable. I am thankful for life as it is given to each and every one of us and I am especially thankful for those who keep an open mind.'s an extra special shout out to you and your family this Thanksgiving... knowing that in your family's heart, your nephew is by your side. I wish you a peaceful, healing day.

goldenoldie — November 28, 2013 at 5:58 a.m. ( | suggest removal

DeeLittle — November 27, 2013 at 6:15 p.m.

A BIG Thank you. Political mudslinging doesn't stop for holidays. I too would like to see the answers...FACTUAL answers. Up till now, it's all been emotion-based rhetoric fed by those who know how to push the buttons in order to keep their vested interests in order.

timerick — November 27, 2013 at 10:48 a.m.

Tim, here's a little experiment I would like for you to try if you find yourself with extra time this holiday weekend, considering you have a business to run. Take away all the political mudslinging; remove from your mind any opinions you have read or heard or seen about Commissioner Madore; clear your mind regarding any opinions you have about the man...

Now if you have access to the rules of hiring of Don Benton and see if you can, anywhere in the rules that they are binding and there are no "exceptions..."

The next step once you have collaborated that information is to see what Don Benton is NOT doing or what he has done to abuse his position as Clark County Environmental Services Director.

Now...getting back to Madore... if you could find anything...ANYTHING which states what he has done to break the law...violated code of ethics (punishable by removal from his position)...anything...

Then maybe, just maybe...I might agree with you. As of this moment, though...I do not see what everyone else claims they are seeing which isn't clouded by emotion.

goldenoldie — November 28, 2013 at 6:30 a.m. ( | suggest removal

JohnK — November 27, 2013 at 1:55 p.m.

If the Columbian enforces civility...then I'd like you to answer me this....

Why did they allow my discussions with the Cat/Pups go on for so long in the manner they did? You think it wasn't a test on my part??? You think I liked being rude and angry?

There's a reason why the Crapola had their comments deleted by the C prior to his return as Pups and now...he's gone silent. Why is it the Columbian has allowed my comments to remain, leaving all my discussion points as a lopsided rant??? Yes, we shared in heated debate and a lot of teasing...but it's obvious that leaving my one-sided diatribe (yes, I'm my worst critic) continued to remain in order to display as something it is not. Is it fair and just what they have done to Crapola or me??? I believe it isn't...but do they really care or is this yet another media manipulation against anybody who opposes their motives???

Just wondering.

Maybe someone who has the role of monitoring the forum can explain.

goldenoldie — November 28, 2013 at 6:38 a.m. ( | suggest removal

JohnK — November 27, 2013 at 3:42 p.m. what you're saying is you think the Columbian might have caught onto your Madore nickname, renaming it for their own gain or readership???

So you consider the hiring of Don Benton as hypocritical and boneheaded, eh? Care to explain where you came to your conclusion? Seems to me, the information is out there for everyone to find. Madore wasn't hiding anything...and it took 2 people out of 3 to make that decision. Boneheaded? Care to explain what Don Benton has done at the capacity of Director of Environmental Services which would reflect what you claim would be a Boneheaded move by 2 members of the Board of Clark County Commissioners?

I agree with Roger's comment on November 27, 2013 at 5:48 p.m. Humans have the tendency to base their decisions on emotions before facts and I believe the media circus, supported by particular elbow rubbing...banks on the flaws of humans. It's quite honestly...brilliant, but it's absolutely wrong and should not be tolerated. Our nation was built upon a breakaway (I guess you could call it) from special be independent of one nation's oligarchy who preyed on their people with oppression and over-taxation, starvation and death. Whether we want to admit it or not, our nation is once again falling into the realm of such a leadership but it's evident from behind the scenes. People on the forum have pointed out the mere fact of what our police departments are acquiring in firepower. Why against our own people???

Our nation is becoming the Very Wealthy 1% versus the 99% poor. We are on their leash once again, JohnK. To see the very same at the local level is quite disturbing. If we allow this to continue here...

Yes, quite disturbing.

goldenoldie — November 28, 2013 at 6:52 a.m. ( | suggest removal

JohnK...if you think I'm seeing something that isn't there, then ask yourself why it is that the City Council of Vancouver is suggesting a 1% tax increase??? Why is it they aren't running official audits on various city functions which would benefit from increased taxes prior TO the tax increase? Do they claim it costs too much? What is it they are allowing to slip by? With the highly lopsided city council membership, anything will pass much to the detriment of the people and businesses of the city.

goldenoldie — November 28, 2013 at 6:57 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Happy Thanksgiving. Happy Hanukkah. I cannot bring myself to wed these two words. :)

If you are traveling today, Godspeed.

goldie: I am content to let the AG's office make its determination whether Madore and Mielke violated any state laws. We may get to see a trial that will test the Federal legalities on their EEO-igoring hire, as well. I will still have an opinion about politicians, and may share them here. Anyone who has opinions about Stuart, Leavitt, and others may chime in with their perspectives. I appreciate the tolerance for discussion and differences we generally respect.

nailingit @ 11:31 PM: I watched the Freeholders meeting video, too. Who did most of the talking in that first meeting? Current and former legislators. The ones who are still in office may have taken on an extra re-election risk by joining this very public process (no one watches the video hearings from Olympia). And freeholders who are not currently in office are giving us a great audition over an extended time. Think about it: the voters will have a year of observing these meetings and evaluating performances. The cream of the crop will rise.

manthou — November 28, 2013 at 7:03 a.m. ( | suggest removal

hehe...I'm with you, Manthou. It just seems wrong to combine two wonderful days of celebration...and the combined examples I've heard are way out in left field....8)))

I agree with your statement 100%. What I have shared this morning is merely something for people to reflect upon when making their informed opinion...and yes, on this forum, everyone's opinion is based on information the little organ in our craniums have absorbed. I am in no way trying to sway people to go my way or no way...just a different perspective.

And is my wish that you have a wonderful, wonderful day today. Be safe and have a great day!!!

goldenoldie — November 28, 2013 at 7:14 a.m. ( | suggest removal

goldie: You, too, enjoy this beautiful day off with your family and friends. I hope we get snow, as tentatively predicted, but AFTER I get home from the beach :) I think I will cut it short and make sure we travel home on Saturday, instead of Monday. The pass on US 26 may be too treacherous, if the white stuff falls, as beautiful as it is up there, dusting the trees.

manthou — November 28, 2013 at 7:25 a.m. ( | suggest removal

goldenoldie: Today is not a day for acrimonious politics. It's for giving thanks to family and friends and for honoring the memories of the undocumented immigrants who introduced multi cultured Socialism to our shores.

In a few hours, I expect to be explaining the necessity of health insurance to a couple of young and invincible dirt bike riding mountain climbing nephews which will be far more satisfying and hopefully more productive, than attempting to explain that a lack of an indictable offense is not an acceptable standard for public officials.

JohnK — November 28, 2013 at 7:35 a.m. ( | suggest removal

JohnK: Good luck with your healthcare talk to the young ones. Hope they listen. :)
The US government is considering a plan that would kill internet and cell phone communications in the event of certain emergencies. Should it have the power to do this? I wonder what media outlets and the press think of this plan?

Something to chew on, in addition to your delicious meals today:

manthou — November 28, 2013 at 7:42 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Happy Thanksgiving all!

Nails, my heart is with you and family today, I understand all too well.
It would have been my dad's 91st birthday today. He passed 37 yrs ago tomorrow still to this day it is hard on me to go through the festivities.
This is why I chose to fill my home with guests and share my table with others I am not related too. I am passing on what my dad always did, being military, he and mom always had a place at the table for those troops that had no where to go, no family to be with. They opened their home and made the troops part of our family.

The turkey breasts are in the oven..I still have to get the tables set and ready for our guests.

Let the eating begin!

ELISI — November 28, 2013 at 9:23 a.m. ( | suggest removal

today we pause our normal duties, ponder our placement in the earth's populations and thank God for being born in the USA, with all the freedoms and opportunities that brings. Thank you God for being in a country run by WE, THE PEOPE, not the monied elite (so far).

Thank you for being able to prosper based on our efforts, not our influence. Thank you for being protected by the limitations of the powerful in our constitution (again, so far). We realize that this is a pivotal time in our history, when we can easily lose all the freedoms we have become accustomed to, simply by refusing to protect them.

May You help us remember that freedom is never free, and the 'tree of liberty must ocasionally be watered by the blood of patriots'.

DeeLittle — November 28, 2013 at 9:33 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Happy Thanksgiving to all.

After tearing out all the advertisements in my paper this morning, I checked to see how many stores were opening tonight. Wally opens at 6 p.m., and many of the big stores open at 8 p.m. Out of curiosity, I checked the law on holiday premium pay. Per the BLR website:

"Although many Washington employers observe some or all of the following practices, no law requires them to do so. These practices are:
• Pay premium pay to employees who work on holidays;"

That sucks. Anyone working on a main holiday like Thanksgiving should get double time. (And probably hazardous duty pay too for this "Black Friday now Thursday Night" exercise in greed.)

roger — November 28, 2013 at 9:53 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Why Roger, are you not going to don your full body armor and head for the stores. I would like to wish all of you a very happy Thanksgiving. Wife and I are going to our favorite Pub and helping put on a dinner for those of us that are not going to family. Should be a good time with lots of good friends. Best to all of you.

timerick — November 28, 2013 at 10:15 a.m. ( | suggest removal

There is a boisterous and fun pick up touch football game going on right now between my neighbors in the park across the street from my home. Hooray for sunny Thanksgiving weather!

roger: My son, who worked 9 years for Costco, is now a radical anti-conspicuous consumption zealot. We get manipulated, for sure, to believe in the myth of scarcity and sales.

A favorite blog of mine, The Minimalists, recently had a post on why we should avoid Black Friday "sales." Now we have to add Thanksgiving to the sell.

manthou — November 28, 2013 at 10:16 a.m. ( | suggest removal

I would never shop on Thanksgiving, nor have I ever gone to Black Friday sales, the early morning frenzy, etc.

For me, these crowds and shoppers embody the low IQ crowd. Why else would you waste your money on these so called deals, face a mob, and waste a perfectly good morning.

luvithere — November 28, 2013 at 10:43 a.m. ( | suggest removal

11 o'clock and all's in the oven.

love this holiday. heard the actual name "God" on tv today.gotta go to Safeway for little stuff...cranberry sauce, whipping cream, grateful i live in the only place on earth where i can choose what **I** want to do on an 'official' holiday.

God, i love this country.

DeeLittle — November 28, 2013 at 11:17 a.m. ( | suggest removal


went to best buy yesterday, and an employee mentioned she was working today. i said "i hope you're getting double pay", and she said, "absolutely!!! i LOVE working holidays!!!"

that's what's so wonderful about freedom; you get what you work for.

oh, LEW....? you've been running stories about how obamacare has been this savior of families. the stories i'm hearing lean heavily on the 'obamacare destroyed my health care' side. why doesn't your coverage reflect this?

DeeLittle — November 28, 2013 at 11:34 a.m. ( | suggest removal

---The Greatness of Obamacare---

During the botched rollout of the Affordable Care Act, it's been hard to defend the law, much less to call it "great." But great it is -- for the American economy and for the American people, rich ones included.

The program has already succeeded in one of its key backbreaking missions: to curb the exploding costs of health care. The president's Council of Economic Advisers issued a report this month containing lots of good news on that front.

Since Obamacare was passed in 2010, the growth in health care spending has slowed to the lowest rate on record for any three-year period since 1965. "If half the recent slowdown in spending can be sustained," the report says, "health care spending a decade from now will be about $1,400 per person lower than if growth returned to its 2000-2007 trend."

The authors further note that the benefit will go to workers in the form of fatter paychecks and to taxpayers as federal and state governments cut projected spending on health care. Another plus would be more jobs as employers feel less burdened by the cost of covering their workers.

What about the recession? One may reasonably ask whether the economic downturn was responsible for cutting the growth rates of medical spending. Yes, but not by much, the authors respond.

They note that the slowdown has persisted well beyond the end of the recession. Very importantly, it also applied to Medicare, a government program whose elderly beneficiaries are more insulated from a weak job market. And the growth in prices for health services (different from total spending) has eased significantly.

Here's how the health care reforms did it:

--They reduced the overpayments to private insurers' Medicare Advantage plans and the price increases for providers.

--They're promoting new payment models, whereby medical providers are being financially rewarded for giving good care in an efficient manner. Under the old setup, providers could enhance their incomes by pumping up the volume of visits, tests and other services.

The reforms encourage the growth of "accountable care organizations." The more efficiently these groups of medical providers operate the more money they get to keep.

--Hospitals with high readmission rates are penalized. This is also a quality issue for Medicare beneficiaries, who are often discharged with inadequate planning for post-hospital care. Under a perverse set of incentives, hospitals were making more money when elderly patients returned. The taxpayers, of course, picked up the bills.

--Changes in Medicare should spill over into the private sector, generating even more savings. Medicare's payment structure is often the starting point in negotiations between private insurers and medical providers.

nailingit — November 28, 2013 at 12:25 p.m. ( | suggest removal

What about the rich? All this conservative talk about Obamacare's "redistributing" wealth to the less well-off ignores this reality: Every time medical spending rises, so do the taxes (of those who pay income tax) and the premiums for those who buy their own coverage.

I mean, who do you think has been paying for all those uninsured people showing up at expensive hospital emergency rooms for free care?

For those worried about federal deficits, here are some encouraging numbers, courtesy of the Affordable Care Act: The Congressional Budget Office recently cut its projected Medicare and Medicaid spending in 2020 by $147 billion. It expects the reforms overall to reduce the deficit by more than $100 billion from 2013 to 2022.

All this great stuff has been obscured by the bungled launch of the federal government's website. Once it is up and running, the conversation should turn in a more positive direction. Those who read the advisers' report won't have to wait that long. Google "Council of Economic Advisers" for a copy. 

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nailingit — November 28, 2013 at 12:25 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Black Friday:

Because only in America, people trample others for sales exactly one day after being thankful for what they already have.

~author unknown~

nailingit — November 28, 2013 at 12:38 p.m. ( | suggest removal

From my friend Bob Ancheta

Saw a great sign today,4 phases of life

1. You Believe In Santa
2. You Don't Believe in Santa
3. You are Santa.
4. You Look Like Santa

hawkeye — November 28, 2013 at 12:41 p.m. ( | suggest removal

"I celebrated Thanksgiving in an old fashioned way. I invited everyone in my neighborhood to my house, we had an enormous feast, and then I killed them and took their land."

~Jon Stewart~

nailingit — November 28, 2013 at 12:43 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Agreed GO, They like to slam people they don't agree with and completely ignore the things their favorites do. No matter how bad someone is, if it is their favorite, they ignore what they do, and if it is one they are against, no matter how important or trivial it is, they blow it up as for as they can.
Manthou Is the only one, so far, that has mentioned the positive things Com. Madore did, even tho, she did not dwell on them as she does on the things she disagrees with. I find good things and bad in all of them, with the exception of levitt and steave stuart. I do not like liars, snarky comments and temper tantrums.
Hawkeye, This is a open forum, anyone can discuss or state an opinion on any topic at anytime they wish. We don;t need a tauter to tell us or suggest to us what we can talk about on any subject or any given day.

rincon1 — November 28, 2013 at 1:06 p.m. ( | suggest removal

For anyone who cares, Jimi Hendrix would have turned 71 yesterday if he were alive. Time certainly does fly.

One of the many things so priceless about quality music is that it's timeless.

I'm not one given to exhortations, (giving or receiving) but one might smell a rose, kiss your kid, love your neighbor, hug your spouse, whatever it is that causes one to reflect on what gives life meaning, today is as good a day as any to get it done.


nailingit — November 28, 2013 at 1:20 p.m. ( | suggest removal

rincon1 — November 28, 2013 at 1:06 p.m.

You (and dee most always) misunderstood my post. I said "I" wouldn't discuss it on Thursday. If she wanted to discuss it on Friday, I'd be willing then.

She can say whatever the hell she want's to anytime she want's to. No sweat off my butt. I just didn't feel like getting into it on Thanksgiving. You got a problem with that? Too bad. I don't need any attitude from her OR you.

Like you say "This is a open forum, anyone can discuss or state an opinion on any topic at anytime they wish. We don;t need a tauter to tell us or suggest to us what we can talk about on any subject or any given day."

hawkeye — November 28, 2013 at 1:51 p.m. ( | suggest removal

I'm guessing this document from the Nov 26 County Board meeting is the "integrity" resolution. It's actually pretty good reading. Madore's writers get into areas beyond the County's purview (e.g., the audit of the CRC, and the decision by the USCG), but there's an extended focus on the actions of the C-Tran Board itself - violations of their own policies and at least one voter initiative. This area is something the County should weigh in on. Further, if our "M&M; Boys" plan on using this as justification to take the C-Tran Board to court - I won't complain.

roger — November 28, 2013 at 2 p.m. ( | suggest removal

I was going to ask what a tauter is, but after seeing the Urban Dictionary definition....

Another bit of useless info to clog my brain with. Once upon a time I could have seen calling someone this, knowing that by the time they figured it out I'd be long gone. But now that I'm older and slower, and seeing as how we have these little hand held devices that'll allow people to look the word up right away - well - Never mind.

roger — November 28, 2013 at 2:11 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Thanks Roger, so I looked it up. Oh dear, that second definition...

luvithere — November 28, 2013 at 2:29 p.m. ( | suggest removal

I agree, luvithere - We've definitely sunk to a new low.

Time to go turn that turkey stock into some gravy.

roger — November 28, 2013 at 3:07 p.m. ( | suggest removal

The FB side of the comments has nothing to compare to our basement. Just reading all the comments brings a smile to one's face...the diversity, the ability to express one's self openly...the characters in our group here on the forum...

I love it!

It must be the tryptophan in the turkey dinner playing havoc on my mind...8)))

goldenoldie — November 28, 2013 at 3:34 p.m. ( | suggest removal

rincon1 — November 28, 2013 at 1:06 p.m.

Happy Thanksgiving to you, rincon1.

What you stated can be from any person's point of view about an opposing party...and is something I would perceive as very true.

Regarding manthou's point of view...I see her as one who sees life through a glass half full...always appears to be looking for the positive side of things and sometimes, that's not such an easy task.

goldenoldie — November 28, 2013 at 3:38 p.m. ( | suggest removal

manthou, I think you're making a wise decision coming back before the weather turns sour. We were definitely thinking of a trip to the coast for some razor clam digging till the weather forecast changed our minds. Sounds like quite a chiller next week. Good time to make sure the vents are covered and the outside faucets are wrapped.

Will we see snow???

Just a little comment for everyone, here -

My little dog has had a heck of an appetite the past few weeks...probably knew what was coming ahead of time in the weather department. Anybody else's dog or cat appear to have a bigger than usual appetite???

goldenoldie — November 28, 2013 at 3:41 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Yes GO, my dog just can't seam to get enough to eat lately, don't know why, maybe your on to something, or maybe she is on a growing streak.
Hawkeye, simple, just don't get into it . Speaking about attitude, that is all you have on here is attitude.
Sorry about that word. I misspelled the word I wanted. I didn't even know there was such a word. Agin, my apologies.

rincon1 — November 28, 2013 at 4:27 p.m. ( | suggest removal

You can get anything you want...with illustrations.

Alice’s Restaurant: An Illustrated Version of Arlo Guthrie’s Thanksgiving Counterculture Classic

langenthal — November 28, 2013 at 5:50 p.m. ( | suggest removal

langenthal — November 28, 2013 at 5:50 p.m.

With four part harmony?

And shovels and rakes and implements of destruction?

hawkeye — November 28, 2013 at 6:22 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Hawkeye, This is a open forum, anyone can discuss or state an opinion on any topic at anytime they wish. We don;t need a tauter to tell us or suggest to us what we can talk about on any subject or any given day.

rincon1 — November 28, 2013 at 1:06 p.m.

RIGHT, no attitude on your part.

At least I can spell.

hawkeye — November 28, 2013 at 6:25 p.m. ( | suggest removal

langenthal @ 5:50 PM: Oh, what a treat that illustrated version of Alice's Restaurant was!

goldie: I've been eating a heckuva lot more lately, too. Can I blame the pending cold spell?

manthou — November 28, 2013 at 10:26 p.m. ( | suggest removal

manthou — November 28, 2013 at 10:26 p.m. --- "I've been eating a heckuva lot more lately, too. Can I blame the pending cold spell?"

Blame it on civic activism - Going to all those board meetings is strenuous work, requiring that you make up for depleted reserves.

Or maybe being retired has allowed you to slow down and relax/enjoy your meals?

I'm sure the creative bunch here can come up with lots of good reasons.

roger — November 29, 2013 at 6:51 a.m. ( | suggest removal

George Harrison died this date in 2001. My favorite Beatle.

roger — November 29, 2013 at 6:57 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Morning. I think I am still stuffed. Way too much food in this house but a good time was had by all. I got leftovers for a week I think.

luvithere — November 29, 2013 at 7:28 a.m. ( | suggest removal

David Arnett has an LTE where he's calling Editor Lou to task for organizing the "I am Ed Barnes" turnout at the recent County Comm board meeting. Arnett's contention is that you can either report on the news or you can make the news - To do both is unethical.

I'm more concerned about what the newspapers don't cover. Erik Hidle was probably correct in his coverage of the "Integrity resolution" - as far as he went. It is a largely silly and rambling denunciation of the CRC, and often strays far outside the scope of County government. However, if he's going to be fair in his coverage, then he needs to look at the parts that are a local concern. Did the C-Tran Board ignore a previous decision that all CRC LRT O&M; funding would go to a vote? Did previous C-Tran initiatives fence sales tax income so it couldn't be spent on LRT, and does the decision that the O&M; can be paid from the money realized by cutting the Expo Center runs violate this? Did Hamm go outside the scope of his authority when negotiating and entering into an agreement with TriMet?

roger — November 29, 2013 at 7:45 a.m. ( | suggest removal

manthou — November 28, 2013 at 10:26 p.m.

You're funny. I don't know what it is about this time of year and all the holiday goodies tempting us...but I was a good girl this Thanksgiving and took small portions, used a smaller plate and went for no seconds. No overstuffed after effects for me. It was definitely tempting, but I figured it would take extra hours on the treadmill to burn it off later on.

goldenoldie — November 29, 2013 at 7:55 a.m. ( | suggest removal

roger — November 29, 2013 at 7:45 a.m.

It is my belief that David Arnett has hit it on the bullseye with Mr. Coffee Cup Model. It was all too obvious in the video what Mister Lou was doing...a very cheesy promo for a dime store coffee mug. (Sorry WAS cheesy. I hope you were donating the proceeds to feed the needy this holiday season.)

goldenoldie — November 29, 2013 at 8 a.m. ( | suggest removal

and Roger...

It wasn't the entire C-Tran Board who ignored the previous decision that all CRC LRT O&M; fundings goes before the voters. Their answer was already spelled out by the voters...and the 5 who went ahead and pulled the shyster-180 trick had ignored the election results of November 2012. C-O-R-R-U-P-T-I-O-N!!!!

That alone tells me all 5 should be removed from their positions on the board and even face possible ousting from their elected positions. They could easily remove Mrs. Stewart because she went against turn about is fair play, you know. They went against the will of the PEOPLE....everything each elected official at their capacity of C-Tran's Board did went against the principals of a government BY the people and FOR the people.

I hope they enjoyed the roasted CROW they ate for Thanksgiving. It's not going to settle too well with their conscience. That is...if they even HAVE one.

goldenoldie — November 29, 2013 at 8:07 a.m. ( | suggest removal

roger — November 29, 2013 at 7:45 a.m

My question is, Roger. Did the vote that the board took have anything to do with O&M; or was it more about the actual construction? Seems to me, C-tran announced earlier that they had already figured out how they were going to pay for O&M; without raising taxes or fares. And if that's true, if they don't have to ask for more money to pay O&M;, they don't need a vote. Do they? Actually, I don't think this is important since there is no money to rebuild the bridge to begin with.

hawkeye — November 29, 2013 at 8:43 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Editor Lou is the mirror opposite Madore. The one thing they do have in common is getting people to believe everything that they say. Lou has a purpose in life right now to deflate Madore at all cost. And his coffee cup adventure served to get his troops riled up. On the other hand is Madore. His purpose has been the defeat of the CRC. He used the tolls and light rail to fire his troops up. In a way they both have won a few battles. I am glad we are going to take another look at how the CRC is going to develop. We need to do this as cost effective as we can, without all frills. I am also glad Madore has brought attention to the C-Tran board. On the other side of this coin is Lou. I am supportive of him bringing attention to us about the county board. I feel a lot of us have sat back for years and let them do as they wish. Now we are starting to pay attention. We have to look at both sides and cherry pick good information from both.

timerick — November 29, 2013 at 8:54 a.m. ( | suggest removal

timerick @ 8:54 am: You make the very good point that it is the public who helps monitor and watchdog both the press and our politicians. If we are asleep at the wheel, we lose a powerful tool of checks and balance for ethical behavior. The Columbian and Madore are triggers, for sure, in our community, and both have inspired people to become more involved and vocal.

Advocacy journalism has always co-existed with traditional "just-the-facts" reporting. Responsible advocacy journalism might anger and alienate a group of readers or its target, but it is based on fact and follows Society for Professional Journalism ethical guidelines.

I remember reading a recent opinion by Matt Taibbi of The Rolling Stone that posits ALL journalism is advocacy journalism. Interesting read.

manthou — November 29, 2013 at 9:27 a.m. ( | suggest removal


My understanding of what happens goes back to the August meeting. At that time Jeff Hamm was asked by Tim Leavitt where C-Tran was with the plan for how they would work with TriMet to bring MAX here under the CRC. Hamm responded that they quit all work when Gov Inslee said to shut down the CRC office. The Board wanted to see the plan anyhow - This was right after Leavitt's meeting with Inslee, and the possibility that the Gov would take some sort of action to continue the CRC without Senate support was being floated.

Hamm returned to the October meeting with the briefing that included all these details, to include the funding for O&M; piece. What he omitted to say at that meeting was that the contract with TriMet was already written. And that's where things get hazy - As Chairman Bill Ganley noted, things went faster than he expected. That's because some of the Board thought they were going to get to review the contract before it was signed.

That brief said they won't need a sales tax initiative to raise O&M; funds because most of it will come from cutting the bus routes that currently go to the Expo Center MAX TC. This was being voiced earlier, but I don't believe there was any action to approve this method until Hamm's briefed plan was accepted. That goes to the second question I asked - Did a previous sales tax initiative (I believe Madore claims the one in 2005, while I'm thinking the one Jeanne Stewart helped split in 2010 also says this) include the provision that money raised for bus service will not be used for the LRT project?

C-Tran can't raise fares; people will just buy TriMet's ticket and use that instead.

Question, based on an observation that there's no cancellation clause in the contract with TriMet to cover the eventuality that the CRC is finally put to rest. Let's say a new planning group comes up with a bridge project that includes light rail up the I5 to the fairgrounds - something I believe you supported. Does this contract still apply? What if we decide we want to build our own system that crosses to tie in with the Expo Center MAX terminal - Too bad? Have we signed away all potential light rail development in Clark County to TriMet?

roger — November 29, 2013 at 9:58 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Those are very good questions Roger. I never thought about Clark County or Vancouver giving up our right to construct our own light rail. I guess we would have to read the whole contract. I can't really see C-Tran signing that right away can you. Hamm likes his power to much. I do not trust him any farther than the chair he sits in.

timerick — November 29, 2013 at 10:11 a.m. ( | suggest removal

roger — November 29, 2013 at 9:58 a.m.

I don't know. I haven't read the contract and I suspect it would take a lawyer to explain it. Another thing I wish I knew about is since it WAS signed by the MAJORITY of the board, were they all duped or did they really know what was happening? AND is Madore pissed because he is against the CRC or is it just a matter of principle for him. You can't read the guy, I'm not sure he knows.

hawkeye — November 29, 2013 at 10:13 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Lou has a purpose in life right now to deflate Madore at all cost. And his coffee cup adventure served to get his troops riled up. On the other hand is Madore. His purpose has been the defeat of the CRC. He used the tolls and light rail to fire his troops up.

timerick — November 29, 2013 at 8:54 a.m.

Lou's shenanigans impacts the sales of his paper. If he thought you, or I, or someone else would sell as much a Madore, he'd be right there with his coffee cup.

Madore's shenanigans impacts the whole northwest area, intrastate and interstate commerce, a huge number of daily commuters & their families & perhaps even their ability to obtain a viable livelihood. But mostly, Madore's stance, for whatever reason, impacts the future. Ours as a viable community, and our children's, as part of a society that can engage in the assumption of moving it forward for the generations that follows theirs. He's setting in place building blocks of obstruction as a precedence, and as a state of being, limiting the value of a communities' improvement solely as to how it only effects the NOW, and worse, the ME. If his message has been anything other, he's articulated it poorly. If his message had been received in our granparent's day, we've have to leave off chatting and go muck out the stables.

jacjak — November 29, 2013 at 10:20 a.m. ( | suggest removal

jacjak: A couple of years ago, Madore disclosed something that really made my ears perk up. In a citizen forum at the Vancouver City Council, he said something like this:

I don't want my family and friends to have to spend money to cross a bridge to visit me.

Fair enough statement, but after he started hawking the Eastside bridge option, I wondered if his motivation was mostly personal and not for the good-of-all. Why?

He has two grandchildren and a daughter and son-in-law who live in Gresham. His 192nd Street Bridge option would be a quick Camas-to-Gresham connector. He tried to order up that bridge option again a couple of weeks ago and place it on the wish list for Clark County transportation projects, but was shot down by Clark County's lobbyist: You cannot do that for a Federal, multi-state project, but he tried. :)

When does he think we are going to get our next shot at a bridge project? He'll be an old man if he lives that long.

manthou — November 29, 2013 at 10:40 a.m. ( | suggest removal

This is good reading that will make us all better debaters and smarter consumers. I struggle with many of these, too, and do not pretend to be exempt from human thinking errors.

Being aware of their influence on our decisions and positions can make us more effective advocates.

12 Cognitive Biases That Prevent You From Being Rational:

manthou — November 29, 2013 at 10:46 a.m. ( | suggest removal

I'm almost 62 years old and if there's one thing I have learned in that time is, it will NEVER be cheaper than right now to build or buy anything.

hawkeye — November 29, 2013 at 10:51 a.m. ( | suggest removal

hawkeye — November 29, 2013 at 10:13 a.m.

The C-Tran Board did not sign the contract - Jeff Hamm did. The Board approved a plan set forth by Hamm, and authorized him to enter into negotiations with TriMet. Unknown at that time (at least by some of the Board), and revealed by The Columbian a couple of weeks ago, was that the contract was already written. Hamm signed it the next day. It seems the one thing not briefed was the penalty clause for not complying with a TriMet demand.

manthou — November 29, 2013 at 10:40 a.m.

I may be wrong here, but I'm thinking Mielke was pushing the 192nd bridge back during the 2009 election. Madore may have been in the background, but we didn't hear of him until afterward. I'm thinking some of our local developers are actually wanting that bridge, as it'll help support further expansion on the east side.

roger — November 29, 2013 at 11:52 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Apparently there was something in the existing Clark Co Integrity Policy Comm's Madore & Mielke found inconvenient and in need of change. Hmmmm.... Anyone want to take bets on how long before someone tries backdating the recently adopted changes to a pre-Benton hire date.

JohnK — November 29, 2013 at 12:11 p.m. ( | suggest removal

roger @ 11:52 am: Yep. I am sure the 192nd Street Bridge option has many powerful supporters. It's just that Madore is its most visible promoter now. Too bad they did not prevail with their favored plan when the CRC was in its infancy. Where were they then? I think the idea was considered and placed in the "rejected" pile years ago. Whether or not adequate procedures were used for the vetting, well, it is beyond my knowledge base to judge. Maybe the press or government oversight can ferret that truth out someday.

langenthal and JohnK: The APIL mavens are taking a page from Ron Goodman's excellent book: compare documents and publicize the differences. Onerous work, but I am glad someone is up to it. :)

manthou — November 29, 2013 at 12:28 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Well, I finished Cap'n Drift's book. A very entertaining read, though I'm more impressed by surviving childhood than the Navy. As for that Chief who claimed this wasn't real (or whatever), we sure as hell did a lot of piss testing, training and other stuff in the Army a few years later because the Star men had decided the outlaws of the post-Vietnam '70s weren't going to be tolerated any longer. I heard plenty of similar stories - No reason the Navy should have been different.

The Star men weren't entirely successful. They got us to quit doping, but we still did crazy stuff. Rappelling off the barracks roof to heave a CS canister in the open window of another platoon's floor (that white powder is a bear to clean up), using our trusty jeep inner tube for launching flares and grenade simulators into some other unit's campsite (burning a couple of tents down in the process), and similar pranks were still the order of the day.

roger — November 29, 2013 at 3:13 p.m. ( | suggest removal

roger @ 3:13 pm: Sounds like frat house pranks. It surprises me a bit, but ya' gotta blow off steam, I guess, or succumb to the horrors faced in duty to country.

Considering how politicians like Don Benton (won his seat against Probst by only 74 votes) or Tom Mielke (won his seat against Pam Brokaw by 274 votes), can we really afford voters who actually fill out ballots with such avoidable bonehead errors?

The list actually astounds me:

manthou — November 29, 2013 at 3:25 p.m. ( | suggest removal


No - We did stuff like that when we were bored. I suppose a frat is an apt comparison, but our toys were more impressive.

roger — November 29, 2013 at 3:34 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Stevie must have been having a really slow day. 93,000 votes cast, with 869 disqualified. That's an error rate of .0093 (.93%).

Now, if all those boneheaded Republicans who vote for people like Benton and Mielke would learn to read and follow instructions, then those races wouldn't have been so close.

roger — November 29, 2013 at 3:46 p.m. ( | suggest removal

jacjak — November 29, 2013 at 10:20 a.m.

A different perspective -

The supporters of the CRC...MAX especially, are obstructing Clark County's ability to move forward into the future with a little help from those involved with direct personal gain, are forcing the people to their service and not ours by not allowing our transit system in Clark County to take the next step into the future.

Is Madore being an obstructionist or could he possibly see a different and better future for our county, but the picture is clouded by the "anti-Madore" crowd who clearly has vested interests in a poorly maintained, poorly run, outdated light rail equipment and the transit system in charge of it.

In general...if you take a look at the past 10 years of Vancouver and what they claim are improvements...then take into consideration what the next 10 years have to offer us...

I see more of the same old, same old. What is it YOU see?

Is MAX with all of TriMet's headaches to a dead end at Clark College, an already highly-congested area of Vancouver prone to parking issues an improvement for the entire city of Vancouver? Will the Waterfront Project prove to be of worth to the city or will it just become another sleeper segment of the city with empty shops and half-filled offices and condos? Remember the headaches of The Hilton??? What about VPD? Have they improved their service to the people? How are the city parks (including the ones tucked in the neighborhoods) looking these days??? To this day...would you walk down any road at night in the Rosemere area of Vancouver without a CW or other form of protection? What about our firefighters and the on again, off again closure of Station 6??? How many new community programs have been generated in the city and how many have been dropped? So what has City Council done for the people of Vancouver over the past 10 years and hope to accomplish in the next 10???

So I ask...who's being the obstructionists, here???


goldenoldie — November 29, 2013 at 4:42 p.m. ( | suggest removal

"little help from those involved with direct personal gain"

Not doubting this claim, but exactly, and who are these people, the ones with personal gains? I hear that stuff, maybe some names and numbers?

"Is Madore being an obstructionist or could he possibly see a different and better future for our county, but the picture is clouded by the "anti-Madore" crowd who clearly has vested interests in a poorly maintained, poorly run, outdated light rail equipment and the transit system in charge of it."

Not doubting a thing you say, again, I don't know, but please explain why Madore is some kind of visionary and his detractors are a "crowd" with clearly vested interests in such a fiasco. Perhaps you can show that Tiny Tim's employer will give him a helluva bonus if lite rail is built?

I feel light rail service to Vancouver, a bedroom community to Portland-always has been and always will be-necessary in a couple of decades. Extreme capital investment on this side of the river to attract those "family wage" type jobs? Check out the chit at the Port of Vancouver. If the coal & oil terminals are denied, are large corporations going to notice? Hmmm, back to the bedroom. Want your cake? Don't eat it.

mrd — November 29, 2013 at 7:17 p.m. ( | suggest removal

The supporters of the CRC...MAX especially, are obstructing Clark County's ability to move forward into the future with a little help from those involved with direct personal gain, are forcing the people to their service and not ours by not allowing our transit system in Clark County to take the next step into the future.

goldenoldie — November 29, 2013 at 4:42 p.m.

HUH? Exactly what would that next step into the future be?

hawkeye — November 29, 2013 at 7:18 p.m. ( | suggest removal

roger @ 3:46 PM: Ouch! One question, though: what made you think I was assuming Republicans made the bonehead errors? I am equal opportunity when it comes to finding a stupid vaccine. ; )

manthou — November 29, 2013 at 7:29 p.m. ( | suggest removal

mrd- Take a look at who is investing in property along both the north and south proposed light rail lines. I think you will find some very big players who have been around this town for quite some time. In the last several months there have been several propertys that have changed hands. Good business? I would say yes and very clever. The Port is gearing up for not only coal and oil. They are planning on several big things going in down there. I believe the port is doing a good job. You will see some more small business's going in along 4th Plain and might even see the vacant store front at 4th Plain and Kauffman get new tenants. I hope so on both counts. If we are going to get well paying blue collar jobs here our best shot is the Port of Vancouver. This is just my personal opinion. I really hope I am not wrong.

timerick — November 29, 2013 at 8:21 p.m. ( | suggest removal

manthou — November 29, 2013 at 7:29 p.m.

You misunderstood where I was going, I think. You observed the margins of victory were within the number of disqualified voters, and noted the outcome just possibly would have been different if they'd taken the time to do it right (different elections, but point made loud and clear). I was the one who blamed all the errors on Repubs.

Sorry - My idea of humor doesn't always connect.

roger — November 29, 2013 at 8:54 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Hawkeye, It is two more bridges, one East and one West of the I5 bridges, and a refit to the I5 bridges.

rincon1 — November 29, 2013 at 9:06 p.m. ( | suggest removal

rincon1 — November 29, 2013 at 9:06 p.m.

Well, that seems excessive.

I'd go along with one to the West but it would have to go thru Vancouver Lake area and I think there would be too many complaints about that. However, it would be the best area for another bridge. It could by-pass Downtown (both) and go from I-5 up north to Beaverton/Tigard directly. So much faster.

I mean, who wants to go from Camas to Rockwood or Gresham besides Madore. And by the time THAT bridge is built, his Grand kids will have grown up and moved away.

hawkeye — November 29, 2013 at 9:39 p.m. ( | suggest removal

goldenoldie — November 29, 2013 at 4:42 p.m.

Today we went shopping. Yep, Black Friday and all. And had a great time meandering around with hubby, talking to folks, kidding with teens, buying the one tree decoration we always buy the day before the outside Christmas lights are turned one, etc. Just our own fun traditions and rituals. Ok, there was good food, too.

You asked what I see...

I see a community of good people looking out for all that life can deliver... by the breath, by the minute, the day, or year, or always. I see those wondering and discovering where they came from, and struggling to see where they're going. And I see hard working neighbors who have a little or a lot still taking the time to walk dogs, say 'good morning' and mow the lawn of the eldest homeowner on street.

What I don't see is that dark, drab place you framed in your statements that ends with 19 question marks, and two that had no question marks but were framed as questions. Because your statements were couched as questions I can only assume you were wanting to say what you thought without saying. How you see your community is how you express it, and the same with me.

When I was still in grade school my parents and I drove up the gorge to Bonneville Dam. They wanted to show it to us kids, and were thrilled that their tax dollars had helped build it, They took ownership of that contribution by being proud to be part of something so vast and beyond their own scope of ability to complete. These were the same parents who would sit at the kitchen table measuring out money in small stacks to cover mortgage, food, transportation. My father took the bus to work during the week, as did all the men in our working class neighborhood, and the family car was for church on Sunday mornings and family drives on Sunday afternoons. They didn't want the wear and tear that driving it daily would cause. I never, ever heard them complain about taxes or government. They were proud to be part of building a better future. Not sure they'd even comprehend the complaining going on about it all nowdays.

jacjak — November 29, 2013 at 10:17 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Hawkeye, Me for one lol

Yes, i could go along with you on that, but, the way the East side is growing, I would think there would be quite a number of people that would be for a bridge on the East too. It would also ease the traffic on the 205 bridge.

I think there are a lot of people that would embrace the bridge, not just Mr. Madore. I think he is just the lightening rod for the people that are against a bridge on the East end. Just my thought.

rincon1 — November 29, 2013 at 10:21 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Regarding light rail... I stated my opinion months ago when I finally started posting. Clear back in the 1950's public transport was a hot topic even then. Walt Disney was a huge advocate and convinced many a wonder-filled child with his visions of clean wide streets filled with some form of people movers, underground electrical and communication grids, etc. We're in the 21st century and is should not be viewed as science fiction or fantasy. We built the Hoover Dam and put men on the moon; we should be clever enough to get across the river without a cultural war.

Having a rail across the bridge end at Clark College gets lot of banter, but that won't change the fact it is approx. 3 blocks from I-5. Builders do things in phases, so why not a light rail line? Expand as funds warrent. It's logical to begin, and logical to add more later, just as Portland did. Salt Lake City did it, and it's vastly improving their commerce just by having a light rail that runs from the airport to different destinations within the city. I think they have four separate lines now, can't remember, but they built it one line at a time.

Is my opinion too broad because it encompasses a future 50 or 80 years from now? A future that has to be worked for in order to be obtained? Or one constructed of my own hypothesis? I don't know, nor do I know by whose determination it would be measured as to what exactly defines 'too broad'. Or perhaps Madore's view is too narrow because he's not seeing a future at all. Again, who determines that?

jacjak — November 29, 2013 at 10:33 p.m. ( | suggest removal


would we be able to build the hoover dam today?

my question really goes to why we have such a divisive populace right now.

for starters, we've been played. don't know about you, but i'm o-l-d. the history that kids learn in school now, i lived through. korea. viet nam. the cuban embargo. civil rights. a dead president (and 'who killed him' still being debated today).

i've seen the riots in los angeles, the violence against the freedom riders in the south. i listened as the US supreme court explained why they were legalizing abortion (it wasn't women's rights).

the history coming from the mouths of university professors and their students bears little to NO resemblance to what i saw, heard and experienced.

we've been played by ever-more-sophisticated power mongers who don't care about you, the constitution, our country's safety or its future. they are true villains, with no loyalty to anything except themselves, you and your's be damned.

take a look around. Listen to what's being said: Let's you and him fight.
read some of the screeds of our own home-grown anarchists; divide and conquer. class warfare. racial hate. Did this exist in the '50s? Was this how we overcame racism in the '60s?

And ESPECIALLY... attack religion. when that vacuum can be created, it can be filled by evermore degradation of standards upholding humanity. marx said, "Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people."

so we'll have a heartless, soulless world. look around. it's happening. abby hoffman is now the university-bred norm: "Become an internationalist and learn to respect all life. Make war on machines. And in particular the sterile machines of corporate death and the robots that guard them." sounds a whole lot like the occupation protesters.

Since abby hoffman is so well regarded by libs (and his drug-sodden lifestyle as the ultimate counterculturist) a few more quotes from the founder of riots and the chicago seven:

A modern revolutionary group heads for the television station
  The first duty of a revolutionary is to get away with it
Once you get the right image the details aren't that important.
Structure is more important than content in the transmission of information.
Understand that legal and illegal are political, and often arbitrary, categorizations; use and abuse are medical, or clinical, distinctions.

Sound familiar...?

no more time to build great projects and make the country better. we're now in a fight for survival of our way of life. from those who would deny you your rights while demanding their own, take your money, your job, your future and ignore the constitution if it's inconvenient. The law...? not important.

You want the country that could build the hoover dam? You're gonna have to fight for it.

DeeLittle — November 30, 2013 at 12:02 a.m. ( | suggest removal

jacjak — November 29, 2013 at 10:17 p.m.

jacjak — November 29, 2013 at 10:33 p.m.

I appreciate your well reasoned and thoughtful posts. Here are a couple of insightful articles I thought you might find interesting. I believe I posted them both when the light rail topic was at it's hottest in the basement. I'm with your parents, to comprehend some of the mindset with this issue is difficult. And when you do get a glimpse of what makes it tick, it's more than disheartening.

nailingit — November 30, 2013 at 12:24 a.m. ( | suggest removal

*** Bark of the day! ***

Lou B. Spineless.........enough said! Why waste ink is such a lame Press Talk today. You need to get rid off the stupid cup and grow a pair annnnnnnnnnnnnd stick with it! I'll tell you, American men are not only pussy whipped, spineless but they can't even stick with their beliefs when they are right and not "popular"...

The Dalai Lama wrote something that is really true and we ought to think about it...more than once...maybe Lou B. ought to take notice and stick to the present and not even think about the future because the future does not exist! Period! It may come for us, but it is not here nor it is there.

“Man, because he sacrifices his health in order to make money. Then he sacrifices money to recuperate his health. And then he is so anxious about the future that he does not enjoy the present; the result being that he does not live in the present or the future; he lives as if he is never going to die, and then he dies having never really lived.”

I have been gone for a while because an emergency mission came up, I caught up with your writings and all of you are nuts but the jacjak — November 29, 2013 at 10:33 p.m. and the ones that agree with him, count me in.

GD, snap out of it, you are nuts! You are the past. You are stuck. You are a Madorite, following a false prophet that is wasting everybody's money on his stupid ego centered agenda. That video of Tuesday was the most embarrassing video of a BOCC meeting I have ever seen and Stuart lacks balls. These guys ought to wear dresses as far as I am concerned. Ed Barnes is the only one worth his weight in gold. The County woman attorney, that old hag ought to be fired. She is so submissive that made me puke. On the other hand, the one that testified ought to have that job because she gave the other old hag with the job a class, right there and then. And here is the kicker. Evangelicals with their greed about money, using their "GOD" as an excuse for tax breaks, shady deals to enrich themselves and gain control, are spreading world wide to prey on the poor and the ignorant with their TV Stations and Trinity BS. Think about it, did Jesus ask for any money from the poor, even a cent? They are trying to take the Catholic Church reign and that ain't gonna happen because Pope Francis is the real deal and it is in an all out war against greed. Go Francis! Alleluyah!

Luvit, I love ya thought about me.......for a day....or was it a second? LOL

Let's get ready to ramble...the freeholders....old politicians there? Hmmmmmmmm Good luck!

nicepuppy — November 30, 2013 at 7:03 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Who let the dog out???

roger — November 30, 2013 at 7:29 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Back again, kitty? We missed your rants.
We are ALL allowed to rant.

Off to a trip to beach, need to walk off the pies. Try to stay a little civil til I am back. Wait, on the other hand, it's so entertaining.

Rant away, guys.

luvithere — November 30, 2013 at 8:46 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Welcome, back, pups! I agree with you that Lou B is paying the martyr unnecessarily. He gets plenty of sincere feedback from grateful subscribers who think the Columbian is doing what a local newspaper should be doing. Stand by your words through all the flak (assuming due diligence and SPJ guidelines are followed) or don't press the publish button until you get the story right. It's simple, really.

jacjak: I am enjoying reading your opinions and glad you are getting more comfortable about sharing longer ones with us here.

roger: I was not offended in any way. I get your humor. :) I think it was soapbox4u that said once: "Too bad there isn't a sarcasm font." I might add humor font to the wishlist. The smiley emoticons get tiresome and I over use them in an attempt to convey good will.

timerick: The Port of Vancouver has much to crow about and it does provide good jobs in SW Washington. I am trying to do more research on the coal and oil train controversy because so much emotion is starting to cloud the facts. I am just not informed well yet. Big developers like Killian, Gramor, Angelo, Kassab are truly kings to a grateful city and I am watching for their feedback on the trains because their voice carries so much weight with the politicians they helped elect. Gramor is convinced the oil transfer station will kill the waterfront project. Will the governor listen to small mom and pop people like you and I? Not likely. I am sure Inslee will factor in the city and county feedback more and that feedback will be shaped by its major political contributors. Mom and pop developers like us have a stake in the health of downtown/uptown, too. I won't let our relative lack of power, though, keep me silent.

Being an involved citizen of Vancouver and Clark County, however, is becoming a full time job for many. Exhausting, too.

manthou — November 30, 2013 at 8:47 a.m. ( | suggest removal

DeeLittle — November 30, 2013 at 12:02 a.m:
Not a put-down, she's one of my favorite characters, but your comments blaming societal changes on the ‘Hippies and radicals’ of the 60’s-70,s sound very much like those made by the Dowager Countess of Downton Abbey (‘whats a weekend’) blaming the Molly Maguires for changing England.

JohnK — November 30, 2013 at 8:55 a.m. ( | suggest removal

luvithere: If you go over the pass to the northern Oregon coast, you will miss the snow predicted. We have had good walking weather here, so enjoy the healthy rehabilitation!

manthou — November 30, 2013 at 8:57 a.m. ( | suggest removal

jacjak — November 29, 2013 at 10:33 p.m.

There are different reasons the CRC's light rail plan is opposed. To me, it's a matter that the plan didn't meet the need, and probably wasn't intended to.

The need is to get vehicles across the river. We are a suburb; one that offers a high enough quality lifestyle people want to move to. There's still room within the urban growth boundaries for expansion - especially to the east - so more people will be moving here in the future. Some will want houses, some will want an apartment or condo in a nice community, and many more will just want anything they can afford. But they will come - and will work in Oregon.

Southwest WA RTC studied all of this a few years ago and determined BRT best meets our needs. It's cheaper to build and maintain, and the routes can be changed as needed. But most importantly, BRT can thrive in a lower density suburban area, while LRT is most appropriate for a high population density. I support BRT. (I also support commuter rail down the I5 corridor, but a high speed rail line is needed to realize that vision.)

Oregon needs more freeways. Public transportation (LRT, buses, trolleys) has proven incapable of keeping up with their expansion. Portland, through Metro, has so far been able to stop the building of freeways. There's a real dysfunction in play there. Portland is on that major West Coast north/south route (a favorite selling point of the pro-CRC crowd), yet they don't want the traffic it carries. They also can't stop growth (especially in the neighboring counties), but they've (so far) stopped the beltways around the metropolitan area (as are prevalent in other cities) needed to support the growth pattern.

Our problem is a bit more complicated - mainly because we have widely divergent views on the future. Resurrection of the old downtown has driven the scene for at least the past 15 years. During the boom years leading to the 2007 recession, growth was exploding throughout Clark County - except downtown. Vancouver City Council promoted a "revitalization" plan which, except for the cleanup of Esther Short Park, has proven highly underwhelming. That area remains what it has been for the 30 plus years I've lived in this state - somewhere you drive past to get somewhere else.

In order to continuing pursuing their dream of a new and vibrant downtown, Vancouver is planning to transform into a "real city", with high rise buildings and a high density population. Light rail is an important component of this dream. City Council believes this will cause businesses to want to locate in the downtown, and that it will transform into an upscale urban area. I'm of the opinion that it will be mainly apartments, and that the residents of the area will continue to work in Portland.

And meanwhile, our real economic growth will continue to be on the east side, and no resolution to our transportation problems in sight.

roger — November 30, 2013 at 9:03 a.m. ( | suggest removal


I'm a fan of the harbor in Ilwaco. Lunch at one of the seafood restaurants, of course.

roger — November 30, 2013 at 9:12 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Abby Hoffman had a saving "virtue" - one that would serve us in good stead today. While he believed in the issues of the day, he was much less enamored with the political philosophies that people subscribed to. He was influenced by the Theater of the Absurd (Beckett, Genet,, and engaged in such activities as the 1967 levitation of the Pentagon (I was there). He was a founding father of the Youth International Party (the Yippie movement), and otherwise a general thorn in the side of the status quo of the time. (A general, all round, fun loving guy.)

Unfortunately, everything changes. Abby refused to, and eventually committed suicide in 1989. He had grown increasingly despondent over the conservative backlash of the '80s, and couldn't accept the apolitical values of the youth of the time. (Gen X?) The New York Times reported the following for his funeral: "Indeed, most of the mourners who attended the formal memorial at Temple Emanuel here were more yuppie than yippie and there were more rep ties than ripped jeans among the crowd..."

roger — November 30, 2013 at 9:34 a.m. ( | suggest removal

nicepuppy welcome back. I hate to say it but I kind of missed your rants. I was afraid the C had banished you.

timerick — November 30, 2013 at 9:37 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Wasssamatter dog/cat?

You spend a week in the slam? Oh well, no worse for wear, I suspect. You haven't lost your "edge".

Now back to the "bridges". See, the thing is, unless they are part of the Interstate highway system (i.e. I-205, I-5, I-405) the Feds will have nothing to do with them and they are going to be ALL on our dime. If we can't figure out how to pay for a replacement bridge with Fed help, how the hell are we going to come up with funds for two other bridges. Any why would we build bridges that didn't connect to freeways? That would be silly.

hawkeye — November 30, 2013 at 10:28 a.m. ( | suggest removal

You know Hawkeye back in the 80's they were going to build that bridge on the west side. The enviros got it stopped. They didn't want it going over the Ridgefield Wildlife Refuge. Was the money already set aside for that project? I don't remember. I do remember a lot of property was purchased down off of Lower River Road.

timerick — November 30, 2013 at 11:02 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Roger do you think that old down town Vancouver could even support light rail? You only have 4 main north south streets. Broadway, Main, Washington and Columbia. There is not much else. And most everything you may want to go to is in easy walking distance. We are getting more nice places to eat or have drink but they are also in easy walking distance. The bus's we have going through Vancouver now seem to stop at every block. And they run most of the day. Night might present a different situation as I am not sure how the bus's run at night. If all we want to do is move people to Portland and back. Then rail may serve that purpose. But it would have to go to the Hazel Dell or Salmon Creek area. You live out east, would rail serve that area. Like say 164th and 192nd down to the 4th plain area? This rail needs a lot more planning in my opinion. I am not saying it won't work. Just better planning.

timerick — November 30, 2013 at 11:31 a.m. ( | suggest removal

The "All Mighty" put the snooze around one of the thieve's neck that use his name in order to profit from the ignorant. Madonis, are you listening? Your boss was no different than Jim Baker and others. The wife of this guy with her fake wigs and truck loads of make up made me puke. How they prostituted the message of the "All mighty" and their money grabbing is beyond belief. Burn in hell Croucho....nobody will miss you... Let it be a warning to you Madonis...

nicepuppy — November 30, 2013 at 2:47 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Let's open the books on this devil....shall we?

Watch your pockets people...these mickey mouse religions and their followers are charlatans for a profit. Madonis belongs to this group, someone mentioned that he used to work for them according to his "resume"....

Buyer beware and in County Government? 700 million for grabs....they sniff the money don't they?

nicepuppy — November 30, 2013 at 3:30 p.m. ( | suggest removal

roger — November 30, 2013 at 9:03 a.m.; timerick — November 30, 2013 at 11:31 a.m.

THANK YOU for keeping open minds on the subject of downtown Vancouver, CRC, BRT and the Developers. Nobody needs a "Madore" to tell us what is obvious. He just happens to be the one taking all the punches with his ideas which I believe are limited (understatement).

Roger, those "high rises" will have height restrictions. I believe it'll be a case of "the more, the merrier" regarding residential multi-tenant, development...the Waterfront Development is a good indication. What jobs will they have to offer people jobs after it's all built? It'll be random come/go shops, a few business offices and apartments. The waterfront park will need funding to maintain and we know how they'll acquire that.

Tim, in your comment @11:31 am, you have stated the predicament facing well as BRT (namely articulated buses) with regards to downtown Vancouver - limited coverage. I agree with you that with the type of limited development in downtown Vancouver, which I've touched on that subject in discussions in the past with pups. Although his visions were a bit extravagant for Vancouver, he was looking at ideas into the future.

end part 1

goldenoldie — November 30, 2013 at 4:46 p.m. ( | suggest removal

part 2

In order for light rail to encourage Oregonians to visit Vancouver, there has to be something other than occasional Hilton venues, the Farmer's Market at Esther Short or happenings at Fort Vancouver. With the current light rail system expansion ideas...a flailing service of Oregon's will only further inhibit Vancouver's growth, especially since there were no plans of expansion beyond Clark College. We missed out on a less than perfect minor league baseball team which I believe was all about location, location, location and the fact that their win/loss record wasn't the greatest. I believe that would have been better located in the north end of Fruit Valley near the farm fields (oh how appropriate, given where baseball got its start), myself.

In growth expansion, the port has tried to bring in coal and more crude oil shipments to be shipped to countries like China... much to the well-expressed, heated (no pun intended) debate it looks like a no show. They are trying to bring in jobs...but I don't think it's the type of jobs which are welcome here. There appears to be a need of manufacturing jobs which pay living wages. Not sure if there's any willing to move here, so we should be banking on the public entertainment/tourism industry. (Have you ever wondered why Cirque du Soliel never comes to Clark County's Event Center and why they'd settle for empty industrial parking lots or the Expo Center?) that I've mentioned that, why is it the first BRT suggested is for Fourth Plain Road instead of running north at least from the 99th Street Station to the Fairgrounds? The Clark County Event Center has a lot to offer the people but they use buses...not BRT and not Light Rail and mass transportation is limited to the buses on hand. Again, in the planning for the future, BRT as well as LRT ideas have been quite limited in any type of focus which would enhance visitors to our county. The proposed Casino in LaCenter is all but dead in the water...and that helps Oregon, especially with their "pokies" in every little sandwich shop and tavern.

So maybe you two (as well as everyone else) can see why I say the local leadership hasn't done enough over the past 10 years and I don't see them making any changes which will benefit Vancouver...or for that matter, Clark County as a whole.

goldenoldie — November 30, 2013 at 4:47 p.m. ( | suggest removal

You have to have theaters and other musical venues GD. That is the magnet of a city, art and entertainment. A museum besides the 4 sticks at the Fort of Vancouver and the 4 planes at Pearson. You have to have bohemianism. You have to have lifestyle. That is what makes a city. The LightRail was perfect to bring people from PDX that are way more sophisticated culturally and intellectually than the average Vantuckian.

Whoever is in charge of culture and the arts in Vancouver is totally absent mind wise or it does not exist.

Take the Schnitzers for example. They made Portland with their contribution to the arts. In Vancouver who is a philanthropist dedicated to contribute his riches to the arts?

You have these church backward people taking the discretionary income of people and their time instead of educating them in the arts. They are dumb as a rock!

Arts, culture and bohemianism is the engine of progress..and tourism. You have to have a reason to get out of the bed and go somewhere to spend a couple of bucks!

nicepuppy — November 30, 2013 at 5:03 p.m. ( | suggest removal

If the shoe fits....wear it...xmas coming and all...

All you need by Michael Monroe!

From the start I was a smart ass kid
Nothin' much I haven't tried and did
I used to think I was the center of it all
Until reality called...

I used to worry 'bout the money comin' in
Now I stick it in the charity bin
I used to whine and I used to complain, but we...
We've all seen a little rain

Take a look at the life you lead
What you got is all you need
The blind bleeding the blind in greed
What you got is all you need
What you got is all you need

Now I live in every moment of the day
I've got something they'll never take away
A lot of love and a little peace of mind
It wasn't hard to find

Take a look at the life you lead
What you got is all you need
The blind bleeding the blind in greed
What you got is all you need
What you got is all you need

I hid my life behind a wall and let no-one see me fall
I'm still here standing tall after all

Take a look at the life you lead
What you got is all you need
The blind bleeding the blind in greed
What you got is all you need
Take a look at the life you lead
What you got is all you need
What you got is all you need
What you got is all you need

nicepuppy — November 30, 2013 at 5:39 p.m. ( | suggest removal

We drove over the 26, visited the beach at Manzanita and one called Manhattan Beach so the pup could fetch a ball and get tired out, went to see and buy cheese in Tillamook, took the 6 back to 26.
Stopped for a cup of coffee in Hilsboro, what a madhouse that whole shopping area is.
Misty weather at the coast but still so nice to get out there.

Traffic fine until -wait for it - Jansen Beach area. Uh huh.

I like the harbor in Ilwaco also, they did a terrific job with that water front.

luvithere — November 30, 2013 at 6:16 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Anna Griffin, one of the truly great journalists who did not lose her job at The Oregonian, wrote an interesting piece about Powell Blvd and its future and all the safety, transportation problems it creates.

We owned a home in SE PDX in 1978 and were expecting to be impacted by the Mt. Hood Freeway, a project that, like the CRC, never materialized.

40 years later, Portland has still not solved the safety issues for pedestrians on Powell.

If you enjoy top-knotch reporting with a historical perspective, enjoy this:

manthou — November 30, 2013 at 6:32 p.m. ( | suggest removal

luvithere: We came back that same route today and yes! I exclaimed, as we reached all the red brake lights at Jantzen Beach about 4 pm: the shoppers are coming home.

Oh, if I had to do this daily……..My sympathies for those good folks who do. Roger, I think I mean you.

manthou — November 30, 2013 at 6:35 p.m. ( | suggest removal


It takes a while, but this is still the easiest commute I know of. The drives to Hillsboro and Aloha, Wilsonville (and one crazy who commutes from Salem), and Troutdale and North Gresham all take longer. Probably one reason so many of us live in Le Couve. (The last to fool Muttley into thinking we've got class.)

roger — November 30, 2013 at 7:04 p.m. ( | suggest removal


I see the need for a dedicated track to carry high speed rail between Eugene and Vancouver BC. Beside AmTrak, I can see this leading to commuter rail. (If we had this, I could live here and work at Fort Lewis, as an example. My commute wouldn't be more than about 15-30 minutes longer than now, and I could quit paying Oregon income tax. What a deal - I'd probably never go to P'Town!!!)

I don't see light rail at all, for the reasons I mentioned earlier. I do agree the 4th Plain BRT should come later, but it was planned to augment light rail. The highway 99/Salmon Creek area and SE 164th (Fishers Landing) are served by C-Tran's express bus service, while the area along 4th Plain relies on the 4 and 44 bus service to get to the Expo Center MAX terminal. We were expected to provide the Yellow line passengers to start, until the downtown area became populated. In the future, we're supposed to get our I205 express bus service back. (And I've yet to find out why it was cancelled a few years ago.) My problem with the BRT being planned is that it isn't really BRT - it's sharing the road with cars. This makes it little more than a larger bus service; They're going to eliminate one hold up (people buying tickets on the bus), but it'll still have to maneuver back into traffic and deal with the stop and go traffic on the road. And driving 4th Plain west of Andresen can be challenging, what with all the little shops and people discovering the correct turn at the last moment.

I think Tesoro's operation will be approved, just as I think the coal export terminals will also be built. This is international commerce, and under the purview of the federal government and the interstate commerce clause. Those trains and barges will move coal through Vancouver, and the oil will also come. If we don't get the transfer station, it will still pass through to another town willing to build it. (I believe that's what drove our Port Commissioners decision to OK the project.) I've made what I think known before - The Port provides good working class jobs, and expanding the Port will lead to more jobs. That's something that can be counted on. This revitalization project, of which Gramor's development is a component, cannot guarantee anything more than a few building managers and a lot of minimum wage part time jobs. Anything more is just conjecture. We need to support a sure thing.

roger — November 30, 2013 at 7:45 p.m. ( | suggest removal

*** Howl of the night ***

Watch every second of it because it wasn't the hippies like one said that changed the was rock & roll, the most powerful force against the "machine" is the rebelion of human kind against dogma brain washing...;=youtube_gdata_player

Sorry molded ones, you lost the battle a long time ago...

nicepuppy — November 30, 2013 at 7:53 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Pup for once I might agree with you. The problem I see is the big dogs with all the money would rather invest in money making property. As if several million is not enough for some of them. Yes they do good things like hospital wings , parks and other things. but have they tried to bring the arts that you speak of? If so I haven't seen it. It has been the small business people that have worked and made upper main the great place it is now. But the small fry does not have the resources to make the big changes. Build the apparatments and move in people. If you don't have something for them to do they will go across the river.

timerick — November 30, 2013 at 7:54 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Puppy a while ago -- "Arts, culture and bohemianism is the engine of progress..and tourism." Tell that to Charlie Hales. He's doing his best to try and figure out how to get rid of P'Town's "bohemian" crowd (aka the homeless panhandlers and the street punks) - they're making the downtown a place that people really don't care to go to.

And we've got our own art scene anyhow. Ask Hawkeye - They tagged his building a few weeks back.

Does Portland really have a tourist industry, or is it actually a convention one? Other than the Rose Festival, I really can't see enough to make it a destination. Powell's and Voodoo may have a national following, but the only other thing I know of is that you can smoke a joint and the police will ignore you. (I see that quite often.) There's some good food served at some of the street carts, but - again - that doesn't draw tourists.

And there's even less here. Maybe if St Helens would blow every few years....

roger — November 30, 2013 at 7:59 p.m. ( | suggest removal

What Downtown Vancouver needs is a big draw. Something that brings people TO Vancouver. I really don't know what that might be but if someone figures that out it could be really great.

Hey, maybe make the old city hall into a big casino.

Nah, not enough parking.

hawkeye — November 30, 2013 at 7:59 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Geeze Roger, similar thoughts at the same time..... weird

hawkeye — November 30, 2013 at 8:05 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Check this out;

Maybe they should talk to Madore, Take the fees away. I don't know how that gets them more money but maybe he can explain it to them.

hawkeye — November 30, 2013 at 8:15 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Roger and Hawk I was asked last week if I would let the mural painters use the east side of my my building. I told them it was fine. I did say that they would have to get the clearances from the city. I don't have any idea what kind of permits would be needed. Than maybe my tags would be better than yours Hawk.

timerick — November 30, 2013 at 8:16 p.m. ( | suggest removal

I hope they are, Tim. My "tags" are just crap. We are due for a new paint job, don't know what color it will be but I'll bet I get the extra for "touch-ups".

hawkeye — November 30, 2013 at 8:51 p.m. ( | suggest removal

timerick: Thank you for supporting Clark County murals and giving artists another building canvas downtown! I love this group and support its beautification efforts heartily!

David Madore and I agree on this one: He was so impressed that he even produced a video of the local murals. :)

CC Mural Society website:

manthou — December 1, 2013 at 7:29 a.m. ( | suggest removal

There are no constitutional protections for free speech in Britain and the press is highly regulated, compared to the US. The Guardian newspaper is being targeted over its "leaks" regarding Edward Snowden.

manthou — December 1, 2013 at 7:53 a.m. ( | suggest removal


An interesting article that revisits the discussion on what liberties we're willing to trade off in the name of national security. I'm thinking that where The Guardian has stepped over the line and invited this response is toward the end of the Post's article - The bit about sending the identity of British intelligence agents to the undisclosed overseas location. I can't say for the Brits, but that could get someone jail time here (unless you're Cheney or Rummy, that is).

roger — December 1, 2013 at 8:11 a.m. ( | suggest removal

"Well, I finished Cap'n Drift's book. A very entertaining read, though I'm more impressed by surviving childhood than the Navy."

Thanks, roger!
We got back yesterday afternoon from spending Thanksgiving on Orcas with Gator, Fried Fred and Stone. We had a great time!

The young man exiting the train as we were pulling out of Tukwila was a bit odd. Apparently, he'd missed the stop and felt compelled to get out right then and there. We were moving around 25/30 mph at the time. Out he went; wearing shorts, carrying two bags.

I headed to the front of the train, Mrs. D. to the back to inform a conductor. Fred stood guard over the open door to prevent any unsuspecting passengers from falling out. He tried to close it, but didn't have any luck. The Mrs. returned with a conductor and the Talgo rep. It took _them_ a few tries to get it closed.

We got word in Seattle the kid (25ish?) was a little scuffed up, but fine.

Other than that, we had a very enjoyable holiday. Now to get caught up around this shack. ;^)

Drift — December 1, 2013 at 9:15 a.m. ( | suggest removal


Roger, Tim, Pups and GET it!!! Putting heads together just by the 5 different people coming up with ideas...people who are everyday members of the community...and already, some great ideas are popping. This is what I'm talking about and what I've been saying for HOW LONG NOW on the forum???

This is EXACTLY what Vancouver needs!!!

Vancouver has the chance to be one step BETTER than Portland (if it isn't already...sorry pups...8)..). Improvement of the arts and entertainment is a GREAT way to start.

Now with that in mind, try to picture something such as a botanical garden learning center/arboretum with a wandering, landscaped walking area equipped with highly efficient energy-saving lighting for the evenings, providing a relaxing atmosphere...leading the people to a conservatory set up with acoustics to take in the best of jazz, blues or classical music...especially during holiday festivities something out of the elements)!!! Imagine visiting a place filled with wonders from around the world...a learning place for kids and a place of wonder for adults and it can be equipped with the best climate-controlled art studio as well as a fully-equipped stage for entertainment...maybe even a sculptured glass museum much like Dale Chihuly Museum.

One person, one idea. 'bout it? If you had anything...anything you'd truly like to see happen in Vancouver...or even somewhere else in Clark County, what would it be and how would it suit your preference???

goldenoldie — December 1, 2013 at 10:59 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Nailingit, manthou, nicepuppy,
Good links yesteday, Thanks.

Nailingit - I've read about trains as political fodder before, and still find it curious. Not thru a lack of understanding on my part, but with a sense of how incongruous it seems that otherwise sophisticated and technologically comprehensive modern Americans could have trains as a bias. A bias that works well enough that it's used repeatedly to continue to attract others of like minds or convert the susceptible.

manthou - Having watched so many changes come to Portland over the course of my life, the article on Powell Blvd was stressing. Lived for a bit out that way in the early 80's and remember well the very vocal fuss that was the Mt Hood Freeway. Had (and still have) little reason to travel in that direction personally so unable to say how it'd impact. But do occasionally still go to White's Country Meats in Gresham or up to Sandy with little difficulty, tho any commute of that distance on a daily basis would be a grind. Thank goodness for books on cd. I guess after Nashville and Chicago all is good here, but still thankful for gps & Google maps in our little corner of it all.

nicepuppy - Having rescued my own spiritual wellbeing from those who proselyte for profit or for a higher reward in heaven (who wants comparative ranking there, for crying out loud?), the article on the church group was interesting, tho read so many like that it seems only names change. Sigh. No harm is as deep or as dark as that of the spirit, and all those hungry lost souls are just so many easy marks to someone else's greed. Without using your own expressive reaction, I agree compeletly with your evaluation of whatever fate awaits those who abuse the faithful.

jacjak — December 1, 2013 at 11:27 a.m. ( | suggest removal

Sunday's Sermon-Yesterday's Vermin

---One of my concerns is the lack of a younger/smarter point of view, with regards to not only our country, but our community's needs and future. We need youthful people involved. I've been taken back by some of the comments regarding the arts, culture, and transportation issues in this week's forum. Enough to set Dylan's fedora on fire, while derailing our future transpo needs. We love the benefits of great music and transportation amenities when it suits us, but not mindful of demonizing the process and those involved when criticizing.

I'm convinced nothing much will change until the natural order of life expectancy is played out with regards to many of our country's/communities progressive needs. Until then, can't most of us be satisfied with telling folks to "get off our lawn", while not extending this thought process to the rest of our community? We need young visionaries (at least youthful thinking) whose futures literally belong to them. I speak with my kids endlessly about this. The future belongs to them, not us. We've done enough to muck it up. (and yes, in some cases improve) Let's give the younger generation a chance for success. I truly wish we had younger people commenting in the basement and in local politics. I suppose most of them are too busy confronting our mistakes. :)

nailingit — December 1, 2013 at 12:15 p.m. ( | suggest removal

The last two paragraphs (in the Politico write) appear at the end of this Politico article, and on some level are amusing, on another, scary. Another reason for term limits with SCOTUS.---

(-Can a cop search your cellphone database as they would a pack of smokes for dope? Interesting stuff coming before SCOTUS in the near future. A few excerpts-)

///Digital era confounds the courts///

[[[“The question becomes, when the Supreme Court was talking about searching a container, it was talking about a cigarette pack. With the amount of information a cellphone can store, is that different from a cigarette pack?” said Hanni Fakhoury, a staff attorney with the Electronic Frontier Foundation.
And the questions only get tougher from there.

“Let’s say,” Fakhoury continued, “that the court says police can search the cellphone incident to an arrest: How far does that extend? …Massachusetts says it extends to a call log. Well what about an app? What if you have Dropbox? Does it extend to stuff stored only on the phone? Does it extend to the cloud?”

One of the cases the Supreme Court will decide soon whether to hear, U.S. v. Cotterman, deals with the border search of a man with a prior sex offense in which child pornography was found on his laptop. While officers are allowed to search individuals and their belongings at the border without a warrant, the suspect challenged whether that extends to files on devices they carry with them.]]]


[[[Some of the frustrations for advocates are built into the judiciary: Often, federal judges are selected for their esteemed and lengthy careers and while those decades of experience mean judges of a certain age know the law, they may not know about the most modern technologies.

“Justice [Elena] Kagan a couple weeks ago was talking about how the Supreme Court struggles to use email, which is kind of funny but kind of scary at the same time,” Fakhoury said. “We had a case involving a guy charged with cyberstalking on Twitter, and we had to explain to the judge in his 60s what Twitter was.”]]]

Read more:

nailingit — December 1, 2013 at 12:16 p.m. ( | suggest removal

"A bias that works well enough that it's used repeatedly to continue to attract others of like minds or convert the susceptible."

jacjak — December 1, 2013 at 11:27 a.m.

Personally, I've found much of the opposition to progressive transportation projects lie within the means to obtain it. Taxes. It's the old, 'I've got mine and to hell with the future' mindset. It's especially appealing to the older folks who are content with what they have and would like progress to stop or turn backwards. Especially if it costs a buck. The same with education, environmental standards, etc. It's much what separates conservative ideology from progressive/ liberal ideologies in my opinion.

Benton's new mouthpiece, Clifford, will most likely extol these "values" in spades.

nailingit — December 1, 2013 at 12:50 p.m. ( | suggest removal

nailingit — December 1, 2013 at 12:15 p.m.

I agree with what you say, and see the value of new hope and it should be.

Not that empirical experience counts for much, in the community activites I have associations with there are younger people, and some quite young. In attending legislative district meetings on occasion I am always encourage at the age spectrum represented. One meeting a man brought his teens to introduce them to political processes and also to the protocol (Robert's rules of order) involved. Accolades for his foresight. The leaders at these meetings are all younger than 45 or so w/ the exception of one. When working with Friends of the Liberary or CC Food Bank, not all but almost all volunteers are younger than 35 or 40 it seems to me. Again I don't volunteer on a regular basis, but always am the oldest in the room. Many teens seem to be involved in these community activities too, hopefully because of personal commitment, but even if only for a reference on college applications they still there and still hopefully can be setting future patterns. Habitat for Humanity is all over the spectrum depending on the day and the construction. Mostly folks like me are water carriers and goffers. Energy and muscles rule the day. The exceptions are Habitat for Humanty's Raising the Roof annual breakfast. It is about the money at these types of events, and so the attendees are older and can afford to donate the cold hard stuff that greases even the most involved wheels of community activism. Like so much else, young people are out there being involved, they're just not getting the press.

jacjak — December 1, 2013 at 12:57 p.m. ( | suggest removal

jacjak — December 1, 2013 at 12:57 p.m.

Your post is something I take heart with. I know there are quite a few younger folk who volunteer and are actively engaged in much on the community spectrum, I just wish there were more. So glad to hear this is happening at legislative district meetings. So many times I hear people around our age demonizing today's youth instead of applauding them for their service and involvement. I've beat this drum more times than I can remember in this forum. I'm proud and encouraged by what I see in our youth of today. It's great to get your perspective on this.

"Energy and muscles rule the day."

Man-ain't that the truth!

nailingit — December 1, 2013 at 1:22 p.m. ( | suggest removal

People have been trying to stop Keystone XL, yet it continues on the way from Canada to Texas. Nebraska is the last battlefield.

People have been fighting fracking, yet that industry continues to grow.

Coal continues to get mined, and even though the profits are (reportedly) next to nil, people are still mining and shipping the stuff. Our local Tidewater Barge has recently contracted to move the stuff to either Longview or St Helens, whichever builds the export operation. Trains continue to move coal, and are also moving oil.

The refineries and terminals up north are ramping up for more.

There are different views on what the future will be. The Port Commissioners don't operate in a vacuum, and they aren't known for making wildly speculative decisions.

There are different views of the future, and the ones with the money get to call the shots.

It's the Capitalist way.

roger — December 1, 2013 at 1:46 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Something else to take heart with. Although a little risky, (what change isn't) it's great that progressive/liberal voices are being heard with force. With Bernie Sanders and Elizabeth Warren in the mix, probably the greatest benefit would be to turn the conversation and elections further left, in this much too far right America. Hillary by far has the most support and money to this date, but the message of Warren & Sanders will resonate to the average American, causing Hillary to veer left imo.

Lord Love a Lefty! :))

///More liberal, populist movement emerging in Democratic Party ahead of 2016 elections///

For more than two years, President Obama has endorsed reducing Social Security payments as part of an ambitious deal to tame the national debt. But then Sen. Elizabeth Warren (D-Mass.) — viewed by supporters on the left as a potential 2016 presidential candidate — embraced a far different proposal: increasing benefits for seniors.

As Obama struggles to achieve his second-term domestic agenda, a more liberal and populist voice is emerging within a Democratic Party already looking ahead to the next presidential election. The push from the left represents both a critique of Obama’s tenure and a clear challenge to Hillary Rodham Clinton, the party’s presumptive presidential front-runner, who carries a more centrist banner.

The left’s influence will be on display in coming weeks when a high-profile congressional committee formed after the government shutdown faces a deadline to forge a budget agreement. Under strong pressure from liberals, the panel has effectively abandoned discussion of a “grand bargain” agreement partly because it probably would involve cuts to Social Security.

“The absolute last thing we should do in 2013 — at the very moment that Social Security has become the principal lifeline for millions of our seniors — is allow the program to begin to be dismantled inch by inch,” Warren said recently on the Senate floor, announcing her support for a bill that would expand the program.

Liberals say Social Security is one example of how Democrats are likely to face sustained pressure in coming months to move in a more populist direction on a host of issues.

“The first Obama administration was focused too much on saving the banks and Wall Street,” said Sen. Tom Harkin (D-Iowa), a liberal who is retiring after four decades in Congress. “There’s going to be a big populist push on whoever’s running for office to espouse these kinds of progressive policies.”

Read more @

nailingit — December 1, 2013 at 1:57 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Negative Roger, PDX Bohemian is a different mix, is the first thursday or last thursday of visiting art galleries and stores, museum nights, trendy bars, the pearl, the dozens of live bands every night of the week, concerts, theater, comedy and on and on...

The Panhandlers are mostly mentally ill people or addicts. An extra weight that all places carry.

But it all falls down to "discretionary income". The churches want it and they are fighting for it hard.

nicepuppy — December 1, 2013 at 2:24 p.m. ( | suggest removal

Fascinating Stuff!

-John F. Kennedy's Prophetic Rebuke of Tea Party Politics-

In the speech he never got to give, the slain president spoke out against right-wing irrationality

Fifty years ago today in Dallas, President John F. Kennedy was assassinated before he could deliver a speech whose message echoes across the decades, and today stands as a prophetic admonition against Tea Party politics.

In the words of the speech he never gave that day, Kennedy rebuked those who "confuse rhetoric with reality," who demonize America's civil servants, and who "see the debt as the single greatest threat to our security." The speech is a full-throated celebration of rationality and learning as the linchpin of American leadership, and a surprisingly modern rebuke of the Ted Cruz wing of Republican politics.

Just read it:

"In a world of complex and continuing problems, in a world full of frustrations and irritations, America's leadership must be guided by the lights of learning and reason – or else those who confuse rhetoric with reality and the plausible with the possible will gain the popular ascendancy with their seemingly swift and simple solutions to every world problem.

There will always be dissident voices heard in the land, expressing opposition without alternative, finding fault but never favor, perceiving gloom on every side and seeking influence without responsibility. Those voices are inevitable.

But today other voices are heard in the land – voices preaching doctrines wholly unrelated to reality . . . At a time when the national debt is steadily being reduced in terms of its burden on our economy, they see that debt as the single greatest threat to our security. At a time when we are steadily reducing the number of Federal employees serving every thousand citizens, they fear those supposed hordes of civil servants far more than the actual hordes of opposing armies.

We cannot expect that everyone, to use the phrase of a decade ago, will "talk sense to the American people." But we can hope that fewer people will listen to nonsense. And the notion that this Nation is headed for defeat through deficit, or that strength is but a matter of slogans, is nothing but just plain nonsense."

Read more:
Follow us: @rollingstone on Twitter | RollingStone on Facebook

Read the the full speech here-

nailingit — December 1, 2013 at 4:25 p.m. ( | suggest removal

There are different views of the future, and the ones with the money get to call the shots.

It's the Capitalist way.

roger — December 1, 2013 at 1:46 p.m.

And, the people keep paying.....

I consider coal trains impact will be almost exclusively enviormental and health related if they continuously chug through our area. Plus, there's the loss of tourist opportunities that the rest of the beautiful NW take advantage of. But the unreported and uncalulated costs are there, too.

jacjak — December 1, 2013 at 4:48 p.m. ( | suggest removal

jacjak — December 1, 2013 at 4:48 p.m.

Wow! I tend to think of oil exploration and what's associated with it, in environmental and fiscal terms. Quite a read, and the crime stats are sadly incredible. What the fix is I don't know. Price regulation might be a start? Thanks for shining a light on this.

nailingit — December 1, 2013 at 5:56 p.m. ( | suggest removal

OPB is funding a full time reporter for a new SW WA News Bureau. Looks like our politics are impacting the region significantly, eh? :)

It is funded for three years with the help of local philanthropists like the Firstenburgs, the Speers and the Olivas.

manthou — December 1, 2013 at 6:28 p.m. ( | suggest removal

manthou — December 1, 2013 at 6:28 p.m.

Go for it mayormanthou!

nailingit — December 1, 2013 at 6:47 p.m. ( | suggest removal

I really think that the state should require hard covers over the hopper cars that they transport coal in.

hawkeye — December 1, 2013 at 7:41 p.m. ( | suggest removal

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